Asahi: “Officials scuffle with audience members” (PHOTO) — Entire gov’t to be mobilized for Oi nuke plant restart — Strong likelihood Japan could have no nuclear reactors in operation if locals don’t approve — Mayor clearly opposes restart

Published: March 24th, 2012 at 6:44 pm ET
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Title: Noda to put full weight behind campaign for Oi nuclear restart
Source: AJW by The Asahi Shimbun
Date: March 24, 2012

PHOTO CAPTION: Officials scuffle with audience members who attended a March 23 meeting of the Nuclear Safety Commission of Japan.

SOURCE: Asahi (Eijiro Morii)

Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda said he would mobilize the “entire government” to persuade local leaders to accept the restart of the No. 3 and No. 4 reactors at the Oi nuclear power plant [...]

Yukio Edano, the economy, trade and industry minister, is expected to visit the municipalities that host the Oi plant in early April to make the case for the safety of the reactors and win acceptance of a resumption of operations.

[...] central government officials fear that any delay in the restart of the Oi plant could lead to further delays at other plants [...]

If those plants do not resume operations, there is a strong likelihood that Japan could have no nuclear reactors in operation in the near future. [...]

But getting the crucial local backing may be extremely difficult. [...]

Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda

“When we approach local governments, the entire government will have to become involved and I intend to stand in the forefront of such efforts”

Shiga Governor Yukiko Kada on March 23

“What lessons about safety have been learned from the Fukushima nuclear accident? I believe it is still too early (to confirm the safety of the Oi plant)”

Osaka Mayor Toru Hashimoto, whose municipal government is a major shareholder in Kansai Electric, operator of the Oi nuclear plant

  • [Hashimoto is] preparing to submit a proposal to the company asking it to consider moving into new business areas as a step toward reducing dependence on nuclear energy
  • On March 23, Hashimoto made clear his opposition to any move to resume operations at the Oi plant.
  • “If the Democratic Party of Japan government moves toward a resumption of operations, Osaka city will present its option of opposing it”

Read the report here

See also: Watch: Scuffle at Japan nuclear hearing -- Gov't official appears to assault member of public (VIDEO)

Published: March 24th, 2012 at 6:44 pm ET
By
Email Article Email Article
108 comments

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108 comments to Asahi: “Officials scuffle with audience members” (PHOTO) — Entire gov’t to be mobilized for Oi nuke plant restart — Strong likelihood Japan could have no nuclear reactors in operation if locals don’t approve — Mayor clearly opposes restart

  • Why is Japans federal government so eager to start these old reactors? They started building them in 1972 and commissioned them in 1979. So basically they were designed in the 60's so we have nuclear reactors designed 40 years ago that are over 30 years old operating in the most earthquake prone area in the world on a relatively small island with a huge population. There is nowhere to run if they have another accident. What is motivating the federal government to act so irresponsibly? What is a stress test? Computer modelling? Right on Mayor Hashimoto for standing up to Prime Minister Noda


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    • aigeezer aigeezer

      Yes to your last question, Mark. A stress test is a computer model. Here is some media coverage on the issue from Japan Today. Some people are complaining about the stress test:

      http://www.japantoday.com/category/national/view/nuclear-safety-commission-endorses-results-of-oi-reactor-stress-tests

      Public perception appears to be that it is a done deal. Nobody seems to know why though.


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      • ITSNOTABANANA

        Mark- Every second a utility company is forced to generate electricity via non-nuclear means, the utility company "suffers" IMMENSE PROFIT LOSS. I have an "unsubstantiated" "gut-feeling" that an NPP generates IMMENSE PROFIT for a utility company within 3 years of the initial NPP electric grid contribution.

        Compare that logic to the infamous and yearly "BLACK FRIDAY" of the U.S. retail industry. Without the Christmas shopping season the U.S. retail industry would be burned to a crisp, every year, by ~11 months of failure.

        The major costs a nuclear utility incurs are as follows
        1. NPP decommissioning costs.
        2. Government lobbying efforts.
        3. Nuclear propaganda (ad campaigns).
        4. Initial NPP construction.
        These cost are ordered 1-highest cost, 4-lowest cost.

        The governments motivator is so easy for me to see, hope that insight helps you with your first question there.

        Does anyone remember what took the MSM attention/spotlight away from the nuclear crisis in Japan?


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        • PoorDaddy PoorDaddy

          MSM never really covered Fuku meltdown in a realistic way, but the smokescreen story was the bogus, no corpse, no picture Osama Bin Laden "killing". That was May 1, 2011.


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          • ITSNOTABANANA

            PoorDaddy, nice try, but guess again… after 311 but way before May 1 2011.

            MSM did coverage until shit started exploding there as far as I remember… Yeah, not good, real coverage, but CNN, etc etc was all over it, downplaying it.


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            • mondrianyone

              At the risk of sounding overly cynical, the smokescreen story was that perfectly orchestrated Libyan conflict that we (the USA), the British and the French decided to involve ourselves in just a week or so after Fukushima. The earthquake happened 11 March and the military action began, IIRC, somewhere around 19 March.

              Coincidence?

              I didn't think so then and I certainly don't think so now. That's not to say NATO's involvement was or was not warranted (that's another discussion for a completely different forum), but the timing of it all was HIGHLY suspect. It was as if with a quick flip of a switch the whole earthquake/tsunami/nuclear catastrophe was erased from the televised MSM (there was more coverage in the print media), at least here in the USA. Sure, there were little spots in the news devoted to it, but it was taking a distant backseat. To this day I still can't comprehend how anyone in the media could write off not just one but multiple nuclear meltdowns the way they did as it was (and obviously still is) such a huge story with such dire consequences. *sigh* The hell with the military complex and their mitts in the corporate financing, all the lobbyists with their hundreds of millions (trillions?) of dollars tied up in hocking their deadly form of energy, and all the lemmings in the media who are too scared and/or stupid to stand up and focus in on the real story at hand. It's disgraceful and infuriating how this whole thing has been handled.


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              • ITSNOTABANANA

                DING DING DING Bingo!

                mondrianyone-Thanks for that analysis also VERY important content to your post!

                Personally, I was appalled the moment Libya BS took over the news… just like you put it, A SWITCH WAS FLIPPED


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              • ITSNOTABANANA

                IT SCREAMED COVER-UP in a literal sense


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              • Just more dog-wagging. The funniest part of Power's response to Fukushima (funny in a dark, sarcastic way) is that they can think of nothing better than their ever-popular Big War distraction.

                So while we're being treated daily to "no big deal," "radiation's good for you," and "no danger to the general public" about mass meltdowns and explosions spewing fallout worse than nuclear war, Power turns to sabre-rattling. We're supposed to be terrified enough to send our kids off to murder a million innocent people in a faraway country because Imadinnerjacket (substitute villain of choice here) wants nuclear power and THAT will give him A BOMB!!!!

                The punch line is how many people swallow this crap whole, simply don't have brains enough to suffer cognitive dissonance.


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              • Anthony Anthony

                I agree – you got it totally correct.


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        • BreadAndButter BreadAndButter

          Yes – it's the profit loss. Over here the operating companies make 1 million euros A DAY with one of those old plants. Govmt decides to shut them down? They sue the govmt for taking "unnessesary decisions" disturbing their business and demand to be paid the lost profits.
          At least that's what's happening in Germany.


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          • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

            I fail to be sympathetic..when the "snake oil salesman" gets run out of town.
            When an industry fails ..it is time to learn new technologies..new skills.
            These folks are afraid to take a number in the unemployment line.
            Shut them down…
            Let them sue each other ad finitum… it gives them something to do.


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    • AGreenRoad AGreenRoad

      What is motivating US companies to do the same thing in the USA, with Mark I reactors, that should not have been approved or licensed in the first place?

      Now, people in the USA are in the same boat as the Japanese people. Locals may not want old or new reactors, but the national nuclear regulators and federal government is cramming it down their throats.

      If they can do this and keep on doing it until the next generation comes up and has no memory of a major nuclear accident, then they can start building them again.


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      • Time Is Short Time Is Short

        There will never be a generation that has no memory of these "accidents".

        People all around them dying from cancer, close friends giving birth to mutated monsters, the lucky ones not breathing, unable to find safe food or water, this isn't something that's going to "turn around".

        There is a lot of denial of what's happened. If any of you can't come to grips with it, I highly suggest counseling. It's only going to get a lot, lot worse, and you need to be prepared both mentally/spiritually and physically.

        We as a species have failed, and the experiment is over. I like to think that "some" will be treated "differently" than others, but then spiritual forgiveness isn't my strong suit. I suppose we'll find out soon enough.


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    • HoTaters

      What reason would they want to re-start the plants? Nothing besides a little greed and insanity, I guess. Nothing major, just the usual. TPTB in Japan will go to their graves saving face. It appears they will take many of the rest of us along with them.

      If the spent fuel pools #3 and #4 are truly gone (as it appears they are), then we truly might have an ELE on our hands. Just 2-3 melted down reactors might be enough to do it.

      Can hardly believe I think it might be an ELE,. Michio Kaku said the amount of the amount plutonium released, "There are 1,000 cases of nuclear death stalking every man, woman, and child on the planet." Sounds like a potential ELE to me.


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      • Bobby1

        To have an ELE, you don't have to have Fuku radiation itself kill everybody. All you need is sufficient death and social disruption to affect the power grid, so the hundreds of nuclear reactors around the world don't get cooling, and start to melt down. There is a tipping point which is well short of radioactive extinction from Fuku. Any remaining populations which survive will have to devote a huge percentage of their efforts in decommissioning reactors and storing radioactive waste, rather than developing techniques for obtaining safe food and water.


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      • Until and unless all human beings die before reproductive age – or all humans become incapable of reproduction – there will still be humans on this planet. Well, until humans evolve into whatever they're going to be when they aren't human anymore, that is.

        Thus even if 100% of people who don't die of accidents or passing epidemics or human-on-human violence do die of plutonium-caused lung cancer, it would take enough people enough time to develop said cancers and die of them that there would still be babies born. In colonial days the average life expectancy was 26-35 years. There would still be new generations if average life expectancy went all the way down to 15-25.

        The fact that for awhile there our averages climbed to 72-80 doesn't mean that's what it has to be in order for there to be people. That's a technologically-aided peak, and it's already going back down. It will keep falling as technology's burden of environmental toxins take their toll and the majority of people get farther disenfranchised from the benefits of technology because they can't afford electricity and clean water anymore.


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        • StillJill StillJill

          Yes,…except,…Joy,….their,….kids,…were,…radioactive,…free,………will,…ours,….


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          • I don't know, Jill. Back then the cancer rate wasn't very noticeable either. Children died of starvation, diseases like measles or rubella, abuse, overwork, black lung, accidents, violence… and a great many of them didn't live long enough to learn to walk. The women most often died of childbirth or complications of childbirth, diseases like TB or influenza, abuse, overwork, etc. Same with the men.

            There are ~7 billion of us right now, and most of us live in abject poverty, near-starvation, disease-ridden third world backwaters without electricity or clean water and no allopathic medical care. Think of the pictures we've all seen of fancy resorts and mansions of the rich in Central/South American countries, separated by a mere wall from the mass hoards of poor living in ramshackle huts stacked one on top of another and with one dirty well to serve them all.

            If industrial civilization went away overnight there would still be billions of people in the world, and many of them would survive. Most would still be making babies.


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            • Time Is Short Time Is Short

              It'll take no more than two generations, or 40 years, before it will be impossible to have healthy children. No one said this ELE will be quick.

              We will not mutate our way out of this. But most of us will be gone before we see any of that.

              It's now a personal choice on how we decide to face our extinction. I'm going to smell the roses and meditate more, and hope the other side is better.


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              • That's frankly silly. In the 1950s and '60s there were massive, constantly refreshed, world-circling plumes of radioactive nastiness. Fukushima's bad, but not THAT bad. We were all dosed big time, yet here I still am 60 years later. My kids were healthy. My grandkids are healthy. I expect most of my greats will be healthy too if they've enough sense to stay away from doctors.

                Doctors, by the way, will gladly dose you with more radiation than you'll ever get from the environment or nuclear plants, on as regular a basis as your insurance company will pay. In fact, some of their most "popular" cancer-screening technologies themselves irradiate you enough to cause cancer. Then when you get cancer they give you a whole lot more – lethal doses, in fact. Maybe a little more time to loot your life savings before you finally croak, while you suffer horribly enough to start thinking death doesn't look so bad.

                Look at the stats. If you get an annual check-up with chest X-ray plus mammogram, then go to the dentist for teeth cleaning and more X-rays, you're getting much higher doses than you'd get from Fukushima fallout if you don't live in northeastern Japan. Get sick or injured and they'll X-ray you some more, maybe do a CT scan, even shoot you up with isotopes to boot. Modern medicine causes more cancer than meltdowns do. Modern medicine has many other ways of causing death too, 100,000 every year in the U.S. just of 'medical/prescription errors' in hospitals. How many die of the same type of errors outside hospitals nobody knows because nobody wants to keep track.

                We'll all die in the end of something or other. And we've all got our work cut out for us addressing the immorality and murderous greed that rules (and too often ruins) our lives. When and how we die means less than how we live. I see no purpose in fearing death so much that we forget to live.


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                • BreadAndButter BreadAndButter

                  "I see no purpose in fearing death so much that we forget to live."
                  Words of wisdom. +1


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                • NoNukes NoNukes

                  JoyB,

                  This inaccurately compares inhaling aerosolized plutonium from Fukushima with x-rays. Aerosolized plutonium has been identified as far away as Lithuania.

                  "If you get an annual check-up with chest X-ray plus mammogram, then go to the dentist for teeth cleaning and more X-rays, you're getting much higher doses than you'd get from Fukushima fallout if you don't live in northeastern Japan."


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                  • Are you dying of vaporized plutonium right now? I'm not. In fact, I need to go plant greens and corn while it's not raining.

                    I am horrified by Fukushima, I sorrow for the people of Japan. I'm sorry for all the people who will suffer and die from it. So I put a lot of energy into shutting this wicked technology down, all over the world. Meanwhile, I've the a life to live. So do my children and grandchildren. It would be great if there weren't any nukes in my great-grandchildren's world. That's a good goal, I think.

                    And just so you know, gamma radiation is perfectly capable of killing people in ugly ways at high doses, and medical doses are high. A rem is a rem is a rem – Radiation Equivalent to Man – the difference between internal and external dose is already factored (which is why I hate Sieverts and grays – they're not factored). And of course, nukes always lie about what you're getting, from any source.

                    A single set of dental X-rays is 10 times the dose we got here at the 'stead from Fukushima. I'm far more concerned about leftover cesium in the soil than I am about plutonium. People living in the plume paths from Hanford, INL, Los Alamos, Amarillo, Erwin and Rocky Flats have more plutonium in them than anybody outside Japan got from Fukushima. Everybody alive in the 1950s and '60s got more. Humanity's not extinct.

                    News flash: Everybody's not going to die of Fukushima, no matter how much anyone wants to believe so. There's no better way to destroy a movement's credibility than to sidetrack it into blind alleys of outrageous speculation easily proved wrong. The truth about Fukushima is plenty bad enough to justify the immediate shut-down of every commercial and governmental nuclear facility on the planet. If we instead give up because "everybody's already dead," that will never happen.

                    Is that the point you wanted to make?


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          • There is a strain of 'scientific' thought backed by some evidence that humanity was once reduced by a supervolcano eruption and resulting global climate change to a mere ~10,000 individuals around 70,000 years ago. See…

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory


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            • Time Is Short Time Is Short

              Yes, quite a bit of support for this in 'Fingerprints Of The Gods'.

              However, the survivors didn't have to deal with high levels of plutonium in the water and food chain. One could have a dozen children, and some would last long enough to have more.

              Soon enough, all the children will be DOA or too mutated to survive/reproduce. Ever seen the pictures of 'Chernobyl babies'? They're not reproducing.


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              • Is there a sudden shortage of people in the world because of Chernobyl? Funny that nobody noticed that while in the race to hit 7 billion. Yes, we need to shut down ALL nukes. ASAP because they are a clear and present danger to public health. But they aren't the only clear and present danger, or even the worst. They're a big one which, if the people prevail and shut 'em down, will empower them to tackle more. Maybe even begin to remake the world into something far more pleasant than the one we've got right now.

                This sort of fear-wallowing is just disaster porn. I'm not giving up and rolling over to die on anybody else's say-so, neither are my descendants.


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                • NoNukes NoNukes

                  The folks in the nuclear industry are the ones who seem to get off on nuclear disasters. Otherwise, why would they keep building plants? They are the source of the pain. Maybe it is not just about money, but a combination of money and pleasure.


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                  • NoNukes NoNukes

                    They build the nuclear plants with vents, knowing that the infants and children in the downwind communities will inhale the radiation that is vented. Bloody sadists.

                    Nuclear reminds me of the whole history of slavery, the huge amount of infliction of superfluous pain, damage far beyond what was "economically indicated."


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        • Anthony Anthony

          That is what I see too JoyB. It is our very nature to evolve. UNLESS the contamination is too much or too toxic… there will be survivors of this mess.
          I really think this is why Japanese citizens appear to be living relatively *fine* (everyone in Tokyo say its life as usual) since 311. I think the previous nuclear contamination left them in a unique state to be able to weather further radiation.


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          • Thanks, Anthony. And of course humans will evolve – we've only been here about 100,000 years, and I doubt evolution's done. That said, the very nature of stochastic (random) damage to biological tissues from ionizing radiation ensures that it will be deadly to many at any point in the timeline. IOW, there's no such thing as "hormesis" that makes low doses of radiation good for you. It is to be avoided as much as possible, by everyone.

            But as an 'evolutionary filter' on the fitness level, high levels of radiation since the middle of the last century and as far into the future as we can see, radiation will work as well as Bt GMO crops to ensure the survival of resistant organisms (in this case, humans). Think of LD50 – a dose lethal within a certain time frame for 50% of those exposed. While the differences in random damage done may account for some of the survivors, those with robust DNA repair mechanisms and immune systems will be the ones that tend to survive. Many of those will pass their robust DNA repair mechanisms and creative immune systems to their children. Along with whatever mutations related to those that happen to result. Over time the surviving populations will be more resistant (though again the randomness of actual damage done will take a toll).

            There is no reason to believe any biological system will ever really be radiation-proof, though. The damage it does is too direct and too disruptive of biochemistry. Not everybody gets skin cancer from UV light, but enough people do to warrant staying out of the strong sun and wearing sunscreen. Oh… and taking vitamin D supplements because if you're not getting sun you'll need it for your immune system.


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        • VanneV anne

          Unfortunately, mutations create more genetic diseases and radiation dumbs down the intelligence. Hoping for evolution is an empty hope.

          And comparing radiation doses doesn't help since it is accumulative. So we should consider the total amount of radiation from all sources that people are exposed to. No one is exposed to only one source.

          And the holes in the geomagnetic shield are larger and larger so more and more radiation is coming from outer space. Since you can't get rid of any radiation, it is just greater and great total radiation. The cancer rate was 1 in 2 before Fukushima. Yet only 2% at the turn of the 20th century.

          I personally would rather die in my sleep, after almost dying of cancer 23 years ago and having already being rendered disabled by the surgery for that cancer.


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    • SnorkY2K

      I don't know how anyone could justify restarting any of these reactors. There does not seem to be any topic where the safety procedures were adequate even if most of the parts were not at the end of their safe life. Given that many scenarios all rely on the same components, the back-up systems seem to all fail when the main goes so I fear that no back-up system is valid.

      My criteria for a restart would be:
      System that mechanically removes and separates rods on power loss not just isolates with parts that melt at predicted temperatures.

      Iridium guards be installed to drop onto all guards immediately on power loss. (note: this would be expensive and unweildy and iridium in high volumes is rare)

      Several layers of iridium cooling jacketed pans be installed under the reactor in case of meltdown.

      Spent pools must be limited in size to less than a quarter of a reactor core and may no more than 4 cores be stored on site even in separate spent fuel pools.

      Alternative and multiple cooling systems must be always online such as a bizmuth jacket that would melt buying time to restore main cooling. (expensive) (expensive) (expensive)

      A large bizmuth pool (cool during operation) such at 40 to 50 million tons to sink heat into instead of dumping radioactive water.

      Fleets of automated and remotely operated vehicles and teams to control them ready at all times to strip all neighboring towns of builds, soil, and tops down to 6 feet for 50 miles radius in 6 days


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      • Misitu

        SnorkY2K, continuing from "Fleets of automated and remotely operated vehicles and teams to control them ready at all times to strip all neighboring towns of builds, soil, and tops down to 6 feet for 50 miles radius in 6 days",

        Something like this needs to be done now if we are all not just to sit like hypnotised puppies watching the movie of our demise,

        Around 15km from the site needs to be scorched-earth levelled so that the buildings can be demolished and the rubble stored [relatively] safely within that zone leaving a 5km wide clear barrier between rubble and outside world and a 5km plant access zone. This leaves a band of 5km width to store radioactive rubble with some "improved" degree of safety for demolition workers.

        I am suggesting this not just because it's urgent but also because if the residents and government can take this on board then your decontamination plan will be more acceptable. In fact your plan can have multiple options. One option "might" be to remove and surface seal; another to permanently cordon: but seemingly part of your plan would involve "very long term" evacuation and also demolition.

        I might have gone a bit Off Topic here, but a restart that dismisses unremediated escapes and contamination is pure madness. And maybe we can start pushing, however in vain it might seem, the corium plan. Because, without that, we are all victims.

        Being a victim is one thing. Being a victim while the brain is still working is unforgivable

        M.


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        • SnorkY2K

          Surface vitrification after top removal at least beyond Fukushima City. For surface vitrification, pour betonite clay or sand on it and melt it. By stating a minimum acceptable policy and placing a value on it then sticking to it as a minimum the option of stating ridiculous standards allowing them to use current practices as minimums can be eliminated.

          What we don't want is reasoning like the anti-flood precautions in the Omaha disaster at the nuke plant last year where flood options were rather anemic due to a 500 year flood only having small odds of occurring in 40 years.


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      • VanneV anne

        No one is ever going to spend enough money is safe guard nuclear power. And no one is ever going to figure out how the store the waste. Rocky Flats has as much plutonium after the clean up as before. The Hanford site in WA still doesn't have the tecnology to deal with the radioactive waste there and can't even say how much of the radioactivity there is treatable. They are just spending money and will have no beneficial result.


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      • Anthony Anthony

        I think the green light to restart (if ever!) again should be the demonstration of their mastery of the present nuclear disaster. It is not enough to sweep it under the rug this time. Until they show they can contain and manage the Fukushima crisis, they have NO BUSINESS in the Nuclear business.

        The Government has NO BUSINESS being in business with such companies on behalf of her people.

        Until that day arrives it is extremely inappropriate to even suggest restarting of any plant.

        Futher-f'ng-more, there is no plant, situated on an earthquake fault line, which has any business being in operation.

        Wasn't ANYTHING learned from Fukushima?


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  • Time Is Short Time Is Short

    Let me play Devil's Advocate here for a minute.

    Fukushima is a done deal. There's no stopping the radiation emissions. It's all over. There's nothing that can be done. Japan is essentially doomed. The Japanese government has condemned 127 million men, women and children to die slow, painful deaths from cancer. The greatest genocide in history, 100 million more than the Chinese genocide under Mao.

    With that understanding, why not turn all the reactors back on?

    With the savings from not having to perform any safety maintenance – I mean, really, at this point, what's another 5-10 complete China Syndromes – who cares? Give everyone free electricity for the few years they have left.

    As the world stops buying Japanese radiated products, there will be even less demand for industrial electricity, providing more free electricity to the dying. Hint – all the other Asian countries are going to be affected by these same economic dynamics very shortly, starting with Thailand and Taiwan.

    We can send them all the electric Chevy Volts that catch on fire. Who cares? They're all made, and no one wants to buy them in the US. Send them to Japan and give them away for free.

    See, the thing is, Japan has about 5 years. Here in the western NA continent, we've got maybe 10 good years, on the outside. Long term thinking is a complete waste of time. We'll be dead before the rest of the plants blow, and if not, how much worse can it get? So, plan accordingly, and provide the most amount of comfort to those that will soon not be here.

    When you have an ELE, make lemonade! After we all go through the seven stages of grief, party on! Run up the credit cards! It's not like anyone'll need the money in a few years. There won't be any food to eat, water to drink, and there sure as hell won't be any medical care. Thank you GE


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    • Misitu

      "sure as hell"

      kind of resonates, that does

      M


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    • Right on TIS – you say it well.

      You also say it's all of Japan in trouble and evidence points to that (shifting radioactive materials all over the country, burning like crazy, the multitude of ways that these 1,000's of isotopes spread, accumulate and increase in food, soil, ocean, air, cars, people, pollen, grasshoppers, birds and so on).

      Japan and their U.S. handlers have done a very bad thing and they're making it worse through lying, obfuscation and idiotic mindless groupthink, complete with lots of stupid bowing and nod nod wink wink from the global nuclear mafioso.

      I vote we all get with the program here and admit we've fucked things up royally, face each other squarely across the table and take steps to make this a better world.

      I don't care if the nuclear bigwigs in Japan have to go without their bank accounts, hand-jobs and limousines, we have a serious problem here and there are ways to make it better, not worse.


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      • HoTaters

        You know what really gets to me? It really bugs me the people in charge are so blinded by their own egos they would condemn thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions, or maybe even billions of other people to death. How can anyone be that delusional and have any idea they are?


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    • Let us study this sentence for a second (thanks to TIS):

      "There's no stopping the radiation emissions. It's all over."

      and compare it with Michio Kaku's statement:

      "A meltdown is forever."

      And, there you have it.


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    • WindorSolarPlease

      We might have 5 to 10 years maybe more or less, I don't have a fortune ball, so I don't know.

      I agree a meltdown is forever, the monster is out. Fukushima is a done deal. We don't have a time machine yet, to change things.
      Maybe someone will cure radiation poisoning, or stop it?

      I'm all for giving people free things, but not at the expenses of continuing to follow the people who have created this situation.

      Even if the world is polluted with radiation, I will still be against Nuclear Power.


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      • WindorSolarPlease

        Do you mean that Fukushima will continue for 5 to 10 years spewing this level of radiation and then we will be in deep trouble?

        OR

        Do you mean we already are in deep trouble but it will take 5 to 10 years to materialize?

        or both?


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        • WindorSolarPlease

          Hi majia

          Sorry that I wasn't clear. I meant: We "might" have 5 to 10 years maybe more or less before we see the ramifications of this radiation exposure.

          Personally, I "think" we are in knee deep trouble slowly sinking in radiation, and I would say Japan is submersed in it.

          I have no clue at what the levels will continue to spew at. I'm still hoping that this will all go away.


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    • Arizonan Arizonan

      Yes, time is short, but I think we are looking at 40-60 years for the 2-3 generations before the damage becomes glaringly evident worldwide. However, a grasp of reality ought not involve a license to go on killing. The nuclear industry worldwide must be shut down forever, and tried for its crimes against humanity at mine sites, mill sites, processing sites, power plants, weapons facilities and waste 'storage' facilities. They have killed millions. Even if humanity and all other species will eventually die out or radically adapt due to the ionising radionuclides bombarding all bodies over the next 40-60 years, 80 years, 100 years….even if that is the reality, I still want justice. I still want to see justice for the Japanese, the Russians, the Pennsylvanians, the Namibians, the Australians, the Pacific peoples, the indigenous peoples globally who have suffered uranium neuropathies, etc. I still want justice.


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  • Time Is Short Time Is Short

    And why quit building new NPP's? The newer technologies will outlast the human race. Obviously there's no reason to spend the billions of dollars on a NPP that won't have a customer base in a few years, but that's no reason to cut back on electricity use. Line 'em up! Build as many as they want. The more they build, the more contaminated their products/food will be, leading to less industrial demand as sales tank, so more free electricity!

    When your car is already over the cliff at 200 mph into a 1,000 foot nose dive, why not turn the radio up?


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  • TheBigPicture TheBigPicture

    Only a fool would consider nuclear energy. Stop the fools.


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  • nohobear nohobear

    Forget for a moment, the insanity of:

    1) a technology that creates hazardous wastes that last many times longer than the span of human history, for which no permanent solution has been invented. To boil water.
    2)the location of said technology in one of the most seismically active zones and densely populated areas on the planet
    3) the design decision to clump multiple reactors and fuel storage pools in close physical proximity to one another, so that a single catastrophic failure of one is a guarantee of a chain reaction failure domino effect.

    Japan is dying a slow nuclear death now from Fukushima, and these psychopaths in the government want to charge full speed ahead with reactivation of 40 year old reactors that were only designed to run for 30 years.

    As a species, how is it that we allow these madmen to "be our leaders"? More and more I'm convinced that humanity is a failed evolutionary experiment, and it's time is almost up.


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  • Time Is Short, your not playing devils advocate but rather deflecting the conversation away from what was being discussed namely why the Japanese federal government is so eager to start up nuclear generators, sitting on a fault line that are old and decrepit based on a computer generated model. The outcome of a computer generated stress test can only be as good as the data inputted. Japan is supposed to be a democracy set up by the USA government after WW2. We see American democracy in action. We see the nuclear regulatory system in action. The people don't want the plant to start up. However the federal government is pushing it down the peoples throats. Why? The various nuclear regulatory bodies, ostensibly created and mandated to oversee the nuclear industry, rubberstamp the decision to start up an old reactor sitting on a fault line based on a computer model which says that this old reactor the building materials of which have had thirty odd years of radiation exposure to weaken, can actually withstand more then what it was designed for. Beyond the nuclear danger we have clear evidence that the politicians are not listening to the people and Japan and USA both are not democracies but plutocracies. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy

    Finally the question begs itself, why when what myself and aigeezer were saying was taking the conversation in a certain direction would TimeIsShort start playing "devils advocate"?


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    • aigeezer aigeezer

      Hi Mark. I'm not sure where that digression was going – it was a tempting one, but there have been so many threads derailed lately that one gets wary.

      Anyway, I think your question "why the push to restart the old reactors" is hugely important. It is happening in Canada also, by the way.

      But… I don't have the slightest idea why, other than stale generalities about the military connection, money, power, greed, business as usual… but none of those seems compelling, given the risks we all perceive.

      I really don't get it. It has to be either as foolish as it looks or… perhaps even more foolish than it looks. There is no cunning plan that could justify it.

      Every time we get a glimpse into the decision making processes – leaked documents, FOIA snippets, and so forth – we see ordinary people incoherently expressing rather dull thoughts with all-too-human sordid concerns… in these unbelievably powerful bubble-roles. Somehow these dull anonymous unaccountable plodders have gained the ability to affect every living thing on the planet… and most people haven't even noticed!

      There's a concept in psych called functional fixedness, the human tendency to keep doing the same thing, especially if it has worked in the past. Maybe it's as simple as that – the wretched nuke machine just runs on momentum somehow.

      Nah… I'm grasping at straws. Surely it can't be that mundane.


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      • Aigeezer, your link was interesting by the way. The computer generated "stress test" says that the plants can actually withstand more then what they were designed for. Makes me suspicious. Computers are wonderful machines but I don't believe that a thirty year old reactor which must have some deterioration can perform beyond what it was designed for. Its at the end of its life right? Who designed the stress tests?

        I'm not a conspiracy theorist. Don't believe in a sinister plot to depopulate the world. But you would think if the government was fulfilling its mandate it would be very cautious in starting up these reactors especially when the public don't want them. Looks like they don't even have a mandate for re-election. My guess is secret briefcases of money and organized crime.

        Even Brian Mulroney got a briefcase full of money and that only came out because Schreiber was being extradited from Canada and was pissed and had nothing to lose. Guess he thought his money should get him something if not an arms deal.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlheinz_Schreiber

        Makes me wonder how many briefcases go unreported? Lots I think. My theory, the people who really have the power pull the strings through virtue of their huge fortunes. They are psychopathic criminals as a mentally healthy individual is happy in a modest home with his family. The world is run by psychopathic mentally ill people. That is why nothing makes sense. Nuclear energy fails on a business model as well as "green energy". But certain individuals gain huge wealth from it and thus have a vested interest and won't go without a fight. They are selfish selfish people. Don't want that karma. God Bless


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        • I think they are starting the reactors because Russia, China, and the US, Canada, France, and Australia are all in nuclear, deep.

          Each one of these countries has nuclear weapons (caveat: not sure about Australia, but it has uranium mines)..

          Each one of these countries uses and/or sells nuclear power plants.

          So, perhaps the nuclear club is making Japan re-start one of these reactors so that everyone's reactors can be considered safe and uranium futures, weapons of mass destruction, and nuclear brinksmanship can continue…

          ?


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          • aigeezer aigeezer

            Could well be, majia, but then why this part "so that… nuclear brinksmanship can continue"?

            We perceive that the costs are not worth it now (if they ever were), but can it really be the case that the "leaders" – in their private thoughts – are discounting the dangers that we perceive, especially the slow steady increase in "background" radiation?

            I keep looking for some other explanation than the usual candidate list (greed, stupidity, pride, and so forth) – some distal cause such that if we read it in a biography some day we might go "ah, so that's why they did it". Nothing credible ever comes to mind.

            This scares me because I figure that knowing – really knowing – why they do it might be the key to getting them to stop. For example, if we could be sure – really sure – that they do it for money, we might collectively agree to a hefty tax hike bribe for them if they would just SHUT THEM ALL DOWN

            Minor quibble: Canada has no nuclear weapons, or so our governments have always told us. Canada has plenty of nuke plants and has been a major source of the world's uranium supply though.


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          • Sickputer

            It's probably not a global decision to re-open plants in Japan. I am sure there is international pressure, subtle threats perhaps by the US considering Japan still has occupying troops of their conqueror.

            But maybe more influential are the regional and national bureaucrats and businessmen (legitimate and yakuza) as well as worker organizations. We sit here and think the environmental situation is so apparent that it would be crazy to unleash even one of the rabid dogs that has terrorized the populace.

            But it's an invisible rabid dog and the people see the loss of jobs as a worse threat than an invisible toxin. It's the economics of a civilized society that for the vast majority of people has lost the ability to feed and house themselves in times of turmoil.

            Simple economics.. You work at the behest of the government or you perish. You eat the food promoted by the government whether it is Soylent Green or Strontium Sushi. You live day by day and loved ones will sicken and die, but mutated humans will survive through in an uncertain future. The Japanese who are among the longest-lived humans on earth will soon become as short-lived as citizens of Angola who suffer high death rates from AIDS. Radiation diseases will be more devastating to countries with high levels of toxins than the AIDS plague.

            Having said those words of gloom, I still think there is still llittle chance of total human extinction unless several dozen nuclear complexes with 30-40 meltdowns occur across the globe. Losing Japan and her people to cancer and heart attacks may not sway the Pharaoh's heart in countries where billions need food, shelter, and electricity. It may take the loss of a China or India to finally shutter the plants worldwide.

            Your best bet is to try and protect your own family by taking measures of foid and water safety, lifestyle changes (no walks in the rain obviously or even when it's merely windy). Children who grow up with such help will survive longer.


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  • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

    TIS the Devil is alive and well.

    Maybe this high level of radiation contamination is a requirement for the arriving aliens who can withstand and actually need the higher radiation levels on Planet Earth to survive.

    Therefor they must start up the remaining Nuclear Reactors and continue to finish the world wide genocide already started.

    Makes sense since no one in their right mind in Japan would fire back up another Nuclear Reactor if they were close to sane.

    So it must all be part of a very Evil Plan started in the US and supported by all the other participating Nuclear nations.

    Hunger Games appear to be right around the corner for everybody still alive in 10 years.


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    • Time Is Short Time Is Short

      Hunger Games is the ruling aristocracy's worst nightmare :-)

      Long after the Net is shut down, those books will continue to change hands. That and 'The Creature From Jekyll Island'.

      The 'Fahrenheit 451' folks won't get them all. But they will try.

      As far as the NWO eugenics plan (been around a long time), as immortalized in the Georgia Guidestones, Fukushima beat them to it. This was not planned, because they breathed it, too. We are all here because of their suicidal psychopathology, and they're going to take us with them.

      It's not hard to figure this stuff out. Someone said the first hydrogen bomb explosion might take out the planet – no one knew one way or the other, but they did it anyway. A roll of the dice with a whole planet. What kind of mental pathology makes that decision?

      Our collective demise is completely the result of our inability to see our rulers for who, and what, they truly are. And now they are leading us all to our collective extinction.

      No hurry with the cyanide, we'll end up with suicide vans like they have in the Netherlands. Lots of morphine.


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      • aigeezer aigeezer

        TIS, you asked "What kind of mental pathology makes that decision?"

        I think you asked rhetorically, but I've been wondering about that very issue in a less emotionally charged way. My version of the question is something like "what is the profile of a person who is comfortable with nuclear technology?"

        I have a suggested answer, based on something I've noticed every time I look up the background of pro-nuke people. What I've noticed is that a large number of nuke industry players were officers in nuclear submarines before they went into civilian nuke world. This is not surprising, and certainly represents a predictable career move for such a person. However, it got me reflecting on the attributes of a person who would make a good submarine officer.

        I think such a person would: be extremely at ease with the world of technology; be relatively unswayed by the "natural" world phenomena (no puppies or long walks on the beach); be comfortable in a tightly hierarchical structure (no questioning authority); be reconciled to the possibility of unleashing megadeath upon strangers; be comfortable living in a bubble, isolated from "ordinary" people, and on and on. I am not bashing submariners here, rather I am trying to cite the profile of someone who would be an excellent submariner.

        If some version of this list is correct, then my argument is that such a person is exactly the worst possible person to put in authority over civilian nuclear power installations.

        Just as a fighter pilot with "the right stuff" – the cowboy in the sky profile – might make a terrible commercial pilot, I submit that former submariners make terrible commercial nuke honchos.

        Society could, if it chose, screen for a more suitable profile in the people who run nuke-world. It would, of course, be better to SHUT THEM ALL DOWN.


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        • Sickputer

          Interesting thoughts AG… You just described a former US president. Most people don't know Jimmy Carter was in the firefront of the nuke sub era:

          http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq60-14.htm


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          • Sickputer

            Damn typos on a phone… But firefront does sound almost as appropriate as forefront.


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            • Sickputer

              At the risk of being offtopic… although the thread is about the role of Japanese officials and leaders… Have you ever looked at the roll call of US presidents and noticed how few were non-military?

              From the web article denoted above:

              "James Earle (Jimmy) Carter, Jr., who in 1976 became the fifth consecutive President with prior Navy service…"

              SP: So whats my point? Just that citizens in a democracy are not as free as they think. Big Brother has a kindly smile, affable manner, and frequently a big sword hanging from his belt.


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          • aigeezer aigeezer

            I didn`t know that, Sickputer. I remember that in the Carter campaign he was touted with pride as having a Master`s in Nuclear Something-or-Other. Back then it seemed like a positive thing.

            The packaging was – a peanut farmer with a master`s degree in nuclear science.

            Seems like such a naive era, looking back now.


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        • StillJill StillJill

          Deeply,…..they,…..HATE.


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  • Whoopie Whoopie

    Quick check in…been out all day. You see this?!?!
    Bianca Jagger is TWEETING FUKUSHIMA DAIRY!!‏
    @BiancaJagger Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
    #BanNuclear RT @Angama_Market: Radiation spiked in Tokyo at 0:30 on 3/25/2012 | Fukushima Diary: http://bit.ly/H1ZF4E
    Hope she Tweets Enenews too! Damn!


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    • dharmasyd dharmasyd

      It says: "…the worst nuclear disaster since Chernobyl…"; I've written to media outlets so many times to correct them. But this is their mantra, however.

      Helen Caldicott says it is 3Xs worse than Chernobyl.

      Do you hear that James2? Sorry. I shouldn't stir up the explosive fuel.

      I apologize to all. I've deleted / cancelled so many comments already tonight. I'm in a difficult space. Please accept my apologies.


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  • steve from virginia

    The reactor push is a consequence of peak oil. The leap is off the energy cliff, something taking place right under everyone's noses.

    Peak oil just wiped the Greek economy off the face of the earth in a matter of months. "Credit" you say! Credit and petroleum are tied together as the one is necessary to afford the other. Have you looked at the price, lately? The cash-only or cash-constrained economy cannot afford $125 per barrel fuel.

    The Euro-states have bankrupted themselves buying and wasting fuel: ditto Japan (and the US, too). Now the taps are closing themselves which spells curtains for many OTHER kinds of power. Hence, the ramp up of electric and nuclear … even though the generation companies cannot afford to build their own reactors! It's that 'credit' again. Build now or never.

    Japan isn't doomed, it just needs better governance: managers that don't believe in the machine. Not there yet …


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    • BreadAndButter BreadAndButter

      Greece bancrupted by peak oil? Care to elaborate? Please, that's a completely new theory to me. So far I thought Greece was taken down by corruption and non-existant govmt functions like tax system etc. – but peak oil ???


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  • CaptD CaptD

    snip
    But getting the crucial local backing may be extremely difficult. [...]

    If the Japanese people really had the choice Nuclear would NEVER be restarted!

    This is just more Japanese Government protecting their GANG controlled Utilities!, instead of the Public Health!


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  • CaptD CaptD

    Even kids in Japan know reactors meltdown,
    … And cause Global radioactive pollution!
    … And health issues
    … And tens of thousands to relocate
    … And contaminated farm lands
    … and contaminated water
    … and contaminated playgrounds
    … And MUCH, MUCH MORE…

    Yet their Government tries to spread Nuclear Baloney (NB),
    … Pushing profits instead of public safety!

    How will Japan pay when a new BIG EQ destroys another Reactor complex?
    What new part of Japan will have to be evacuated then and for how long?


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  • glowfus

    as far as i know, a japanese city hasn't burned to the ground yet because betsy the cow knocked over a kerosene lamp. but one or more japaneses cities (or countries) are ruined because nature knocked over a nuke plant!


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    • CaptD CaptD

      Yes, it is now a proven fact that Nature can destroy any land based nuclear reactor, any place anytime 24/7/365!

      That is why so many are right NOT TO ACCEPT THE RISK of yet another Trillion Dollar Eco-Disaster like Fukushima!

      The Japanese government needs to start thing more about their peoples health that Utility GANG short term profits…


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  • Noah

    With Governments like these, who needs WORLD WAR III?

    Human Nature is the conspiracy.


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  • TheBowRiver TheBowRiver

    So the Japanese prime minister and his government, who are legally, by the Japanese constitution, which I assume they swore a solemn oath to upon taking office, subservient to the people of Japan? In this particular case are they not also legally bound by that same legal argument to uphold the wishes of the people and elected officials of the local governments surrounding the Oi nuclear facility? The argument which the Japanese prime minister is currently using seems to be against the constitution.

    Based on some aspect of the above, for any lawyers out there, is the Japanese prime minister breaking the law? Can an injunction be obtained through the courts to stop him, and in essence prevent the Oi facility from re-starting?


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    • CaptD CaptD

      I'm with you, it is as if the entire Japanese Gov't. is hell bent in support for their Utility GANGS instead of the Japanese people… Could it be that in reality Japan is much more like North Korea than we in the West believe?

      That is a harsh question but since 3/11/11 it sure "fits" the way the Japanese people have been treated since Fukushima became a Trillion Dollar Eco-Disaster!

      I also wonder why more polls are not taken about this since all the Japanese people have so much to lose!


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      • TheBowRiver TheBowRiver

        Hi CaptD

        The Japanese constitution, even though its origin is a little dark, gives the people of Japan a possible legal recourse to their premeditated demise. Hopefully it can help.

        ps. I like your postings.


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  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    The people in the Oi area..were at least given opportunity to protest.
    The governor of Kyoto says "they" may accept radioactive debris..without the public knowledge.

    Dear Governor of Kyoto,
    You must not do this. Do not bring radioactive materials into Kyoto…either with or without public knowledge.
    I am telling you ..you do not understand the danger.
    I beg you ..I beg you..I beg you…please….do not do this.
    Heart of the Rose

    http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2012/03/governor-of-kyoto-on-disaster-debris-we.html


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  • bleep_hits_blades

    Interesting thread, & hard to resist putting in my 2 cents worth.

    Look at human history – it's an effing mess, even before nuclear came on the scene – all the wars, & destruction of the environment, and exploitation of the weaker! Is it reasonable to expect that the elites will 'somehow' get less psychopathic/ narcissistic (i.e. less nuts, mad, irrational), &/or that the masses will 'somehow' by some unspecified mechanism get better equipped – smarter & more able emotionally – to face & deal with reality & to force the elites into less destructive patterns of choice & conduct?

    It is obvious that human beings are governed by non-rational elements within themselves, namely emotions & orientations that are 'hard-wired in' & had survival value millenia ago, but that lead to very grave consequences in the modern world with its destructive technologies.

    As several wise heads in the nuclear reform/resistance community have observed, we're in BRAND NEW TERRITORY now. So we cannot say with certainty what the future holds – if, say, a miracle happened & humanity shut down the entire nuclear industry & only had to deal with all the long-lived nuclear poisons already created… or if we collectively (as seems much more likely) continue creating more of said poisons & weapons.

    But frankly to me it seems pretty obvious that 1.) we could ALREADY be walking dead men, the majority of us, & 2.) the elites ARE going to press on with the nuclear industry (& other very unwise technologies) as long as it continues to be lucrative (at public expense) to do so, & that therefore, 3.) eventually, we will render the planet unlive-able except perhaps for those novel primitive life-forms which evolve to be able to survive in the presence of a witches' brew of radionuclides at very high levels.

    In other words, it's a matter of 'when' not 'if' we collectively self-destruct.

    Human nature is hard-wired into us & is not going to change. Genetics is destiny.


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    • I am hoping we can get a temporary "reset" to some semblance of rational thought, productivity, and order.

      Although this reset may be quite painful in the 2 to 5 year span.


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    • Unfortunately I agree with you Bleep. Read the Bible for instance as a purely historic document. Full of war and power struggles. Jesus was put to death because he was a threat to the power structure of the time. Damn, he could turn water into wine…. Nothing has changed over the years. Read about the crusades, just battle after battle. Only reason we are living in peace is that riches come from economic opression, not war anymore. Therefore it is an economic and time based war we are
      in even though most are blissfully unaware. That may well be the conspiracy piece.
      So this fight against nuclear must be framed in an economic and informative
      sort of way. How that looks I don't exactly know, but every time the people throw out an oppressor, another takes his place. Case in point, USA.

      God Bless


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  • Anthony Anthony

    Looks like the plan is in action worldwide….

    Bloomberg News
    Nuclear Industry Says Back on Track After Fukushima `Speed Bump’
    By Yuriy Humber, Sangim Han and Shinhye Kang on March 25, 2012

    http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-03-25/nuclear-industry-says-back-on-track-after-fukushima-speed-bump


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    • Anthony Anthony

      ***Indonesia, Egypt, and Chile are among more than a dozen nations planning to build their first nuclear station to join the 30 countries operating atomic plants. Sixty one reactors are currently under construction and a further 162 units are planned, according to the World Nuclear Association.

      The planned reactors alone have a greater capacity than all of the 435 reactors that supply 13.8 percent of the world’s electricity today. By 2030 at least 60 units will need to be retired, the WNA estimates. Still, global nuclear capacity may grow by about 50 percent to 600,000 megawatts by 2030, Areva SA (AREVA) Chief Executive Officer Luc Oursel told reporters in Seoul.

      The nuclear industry has faced three major accidents in the last 32 years, with the first two delaying construction of atomic plants for decades in the countries where the disasters happened. The 1979 Three Mile Island core meltdown in the U.S. and the 1986 Chernobyl nuclear plant explosion in the former Soviet Union. And now Fukushima. ***


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      • CaptD CaptD

        Sure these will be the last built as the industry becomes too risky, too expensive and too BIG a TARGET for crazies of all stripes…

        Solar will outpace Nuclear and for goo reasons,
        Faster to build, faster to finance, lower cost and MUCH less RISKY…


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    • aigeezer aigeezer

      The "nuclear summit" conference in Seoul right now looks like an industry love-in to me. The spin is dizzying. This from what would be called "state sponsored media" if it were in another country:

      http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/03/26/obama-north-korea.html

      Meanwhile, a TV scroll item (no other coverage) said they are refueling an old reactor in New Brunswick, Canada in preparation of a restart.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Lepreau_Nuclear_Generating_Station

      They have learned nothing from Fukushima, and they are doing their best to make sure the public learns nothing also.


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