Caldicott: The corium hasn’t finished and will never finish — I think it means the end of Japan financially (VIDEO)

Published: May 23rd, 2012 at 1:03 pm ET


Helen Caldicott: The Medical Implications of Fukushima, Nuclear Power and Nuclear Proliferation
Filmed: March 23, 2012
Published: May 22, 2012
Uploaded by: sugminbajstolle

Dr. Helen Caldicott: They don’t know how to clean it up. It’s not in cold shutdown.

The corium — the mass, hundred tons of melted uranium lava — is laying on the floor of the containment vessels.

It hasn’t finished and will never finish.

I think it means the end of Japan financially.

Is the corium inside the containment vessels? [intlink id=”top-japan-official-very-strong-possibility-nuclear-fuel-containment-vessel-reactors-video” type=”post”]{{empty}}[/intlink]

Title: Helen Caldicott
Source: Wikipedia

Caldicott… received her medical degree in 1961 from the University of Adelaide Medical School. In 1977 she joined the staff of the Children’s Hospital Medical Center in Boston, and taught pediatrics at the Harvard Medical School from 1977 to 1978. […]

During her time in the United States from 1977 to 1986, Caldicott was involved with Physicians for Social Responsibility (founded originally in 1961), an organization of 23,000 doctors committed to educating others on the dangers of nuclear energy. She also worked abroad to establish similar groups […] One such international group (International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War) was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1985 […]

Watch the 58-minute video here

Published: May 23rd, 2012 at 1:03 pm ET


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  3. Caldicott: All of Japan contaminated by Fukushima — “Realistic estimate is 60,000 km², occupied by 46 million people” — “Things are grim, it gets worse by the day” — Unheard of in history, 100s of tons of melted fuel may be in earth (VIDEO) April 3, 2014
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101 comments to Caldicott: The corium hasn’t finished and will never finish — I think it means the end of Japan financially (VIDEO)

  • [Off-Topic; Quake posts in forum)

  • labmonkeywithagun labmonkeywithagun

    No way it is in containment at all, down in bed rock. Best possible solution for the moment. Or no carbon units would be there now and able to try to take some corrective actions.
    Now they are using several schemes to dissolve uranium underground to mine it- chemicals put it into solution and pump fluid out and precipitate (salt out) the uranium. One is just baking soda, but Fukushima needs a little better way. Point is, if you are pumping water over the coriums to cool them anyway, might as well extract them out at the same time and get a lot of the "easier" isotopes while ya' at it. Smaller and smaller would be good.

    • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar anne

      I suspect strongly that adding the chemicals used to extract uranium just as corium and other chemicals to make the BP oil spill less visible will make the situation much more toxic and will make the ground water and ocean that much more toxic.

      • Spectrometising

        I agree Anne, divide and conquer.
        Chemicals will aggregate the problem.
        Dividing the nuclear mess and then dilute with rock or cement to immobilise.

    • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar anne

      Uranium mining danger to water–Douglas-Meiklejohn-Uranium-mining-danger-to-water–

      How is Uranium Mined and Processed?
      “Extracting uranium ore requires intensive use of water and chemicals, and leaves behind massive amounts of radioactive and contaminated waste. There is no precedent for underground or open-pit uranium mining in the East, where the population density and a wet climate increase the chance of toxic and radioactive materials leaking into streams groundwater, and drinking water supplies. The potential health impacts of exposure to uranium and mining chemicals are well-documented and include several types of cancer, birth defects, and vital organ damage.”

    • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar anne

      I guess if you are selling sulfuric acid and want billion to die…

      Issues at Operating Uranium Mines and Mills – Asia
      “The construction of the sulfuric acid plant in Zhanakorgan region, Kyzylorda oblast has been completed. The construction of the plant is aimed at providing the uranium industry of the Republic of Kazakhstan with sulfuric acid which is the main reagent in the technology of uranium production by ISL method. The plant will supply sulfuric acid to the ISL mines based on the uranium deposits Khorassan-1, Khorassan-2, Northern and Southern Karamurun. Kazakhstan block sulfur will be the raw material for production. The plant's design capacity is expected to be 500,000 tons of sulfuric acid per year, or 1500 tons per day. Project's total cost is reported to be US$ 216 million. (Kazatomprom Dec. 9, 2011)”

    • omniversling

      (repost) GE Mk1 reactors the control (hahahaha) rods come up from underneath, as they melted down with the fuel rods there would have been molten corium flowing down through the holes that the control rods pass though into the control rod drive cavity, quite probably enlarging the holes as it flowed. See:

      At 2400-2800c corium burns through concrete at the rate of 5cm per hour, and the base of the concrete dry well beneath the pressure vessel is about 8m as far as I can discover (anyone with better knowledge?). The time it would have taken the corium to burn through that thickness is about 160 hours. There are 24 hours in a day so 160 hours is 6.6666 days. There's one for the numerologists amongst us! Debbil's work for sure…

      So let's say that after the fuel to start melting following the main cooling system failure during the earthquake (not tsunami, earthquake that fractured the cooling pipes), within about a week the corium would have been into the ground. Providing of course the thermal power of the corium was not exhausted by the concrete as is passed through.

      Anyone have better info/measurements/links? C'mon TEPKiLL, hows about some INFO!!!???!!!???

      • Lacsap Lacsap


        Notice that the Mark I reactors of Fukushima Daiichi Japan are slightly modified by Japan engineers with stronger concrete and steel (basement). Second, the melt through rate of the concrete you posted is under dry condition and my be leave is that the basements of the Fukushima Daiichi reactors are flooded with water which would reduce the temperature of the corium . The corium in the water will produce lots of steam, possible gasses hydrogen etc, didn't look that up.

  • Sickputer

    Bingo.. We all knew it.. Helen gave them the money speech. The $17 billion figure for cleanup bandied about by IAEA and NRC… Hah! You chumps are in LaLa land.

    This disaster is World War III for all humans. What kind of price do you estimate for that? Hundreds of trillions. Enough to put every country (many already broke) back to the Bronze Age. Africa back to the Stone Age. In five years foreign aid will be non-existent.

  • Sickputer

    Yes it is time for all us "fear mongers" as the sheep like to call us, to issue some broader warnings. So here comes the real Domino Theory.

    Fukushima is dire and many in Japan will sicken and die. Japan will redeem foreign money assets. America will fall financially (as well as health effects galore on a smaller scale).

    Major trade partners will topple left and right. Third world countries will fail quickly and worldwide chaos and regional wars will ensue far beyond any of the minor skirmishes we see now. Russia and China will turn into giant lockdowns of fascism.

    Thank you Dr. Frankenstein nuclear industry for screwing the world so badly. Life too cheap to meter.

  • arclight arclight

    Chernobyl death toll grossly underestimated
    On this page

    The real face of the nuclear industry
    Support us
    Feature story – April 18, 2006

    “Our report involved 52 respected scientists and includesinformation never before published in English. It challenges the UN International Atomic Energy Agency Chernobyl Forum report, which predicted 4,000 additional deaths attributable to the accident as a gross simplification of the real breadth of human suffering.

    The new data, based on Belarus national cancer statistics, predicts approximately 270,000 cancers and 93,000 fatal cancer cases caused by Chernobyl. The report also concludes that on the basis of demographic data, during the last 15 years, 60,000 people have additionally died in Russia because of the Chernobyl accident, and estimates of the total death toll for the Ukraine and Belarus could reach another 140,000″

    download document here

    academy of sciences report here

    link to the 2009/2011 report from russia putting the total at about a milllion deaths and add on the other serious health impacts too!

  • KingofthePaupers

    Jct: Right now, they have no money to clean fix the problem. The Argentine Solution had better go viral if we're ever going to get the funds to pay for the decommissioning and clean-up. Occupy Wall St."Silver Bullet" Video Winner: Argentine Solution Co-Winner of $1000-Prize-for-best-video-solution-to-defeat-the-NWO-debt-star contest. Also used when the Russian banking system crashed in the 1990s, the Argentine Solution of paying workers with small-denomination government bonds or currencies they can use to pay for Power, Taxes, Medical and Licenses works and everyone can do it too. It's one reason I ran for Prime Minister of Canada to reprogram the banking system to provide paychecks to mass produce marijuana oil for all the cancers we're going to get from the exposure. Big Lie of low-level radiation being harmless

    • Spectrometising


      Hmm…the past now vitrified coriums, the present coriums in the process of mixing with concrete & rock, future coriums entering the liquid phase, and the dismembered nuclear fractions.

      "Credit is merely a legal agreement, a “monetization” of future proceeds, a promise to pay later from the fruits of the advance. Banks have created credit on their books for hundreds of years, and this system would have worked quite well had it not been for the enormous tribute siphoned off to private coffers in the form of interest. A public banking system could overcome that problem by returning the interest to the public purse. This is the sort of banking system that was pioneered in the colony of Pennsylvania, where it worked brilliantly well. "

      For more on brilliant/illustrious Ellen Brown, visit

      "A state bank, capitalized by our own taxpayers, would allow us to fund commercial development, mortgages, municipal debt, mortgages and student loans. Fortunately, we have a model. North Dakota has had a state bank since 1919 and this year the state has a $1 billion plus surplus!
      I urge you to support legislation to create a state bank today."

      • Spectrometising

        I should have entitled that, Where and how to get the money to fix up Fukushima and anything else that needs attention."

        • Spectrometising

          According to the highly esteemed Ellen Brown.

          • Spectrometising

            Hey KingofthePaupers

            And if the Japanese cannot afford very much ink (Preferably green because it's cheaper.) they could print the Japanese currency only one side of the note, and double the money 🙂

            • Spectrometising

              Clearly helen Caldicot knows where babies come from, but she sure as hell doesn't know where money comes from.

              • Spectrometising

                ‎Helen Caldicott, & Ellen Brown could/should become associates. Together they would be dynamite.

                • Spectrometising

                  In fact, (More opinion,) the reason we/they are in this mess is because 99.9% of the world does not know how money is created.

                  Now more than ever this almost ancient knowledge needs to be rediscovered,

                  Japan is not, or every was bankrupt, it just lost its sovereignty and forgot how to print money like the privately owned banks do. Who stole this mechanism.

          • bleep_hits_blades

            Ellen Brown advocates another money-of-no-substance scheme. In her plan, it's government alone, without the participation of banks, that has this power.

            Here are some critiques of her book & her ideas:


            The above is a reader review from Amazon.

            Gary North does a good job of critiquing her book and theories.

            Ellen Brown's Web of Debt Is Anti-Gold Currency, Pro-Fiat … *****

            "Gary North. Ellen Brown has thrown in the towel. She is no longer willing to argue with me. I finished my critique of her on November 17, 2010."


            All these schemes give great powers to create money out of nothing to some governmental or quasi-governmental agency & then count on them not to exploit this huge power – which is a bit like giving a heroin addict unlimited access to heroin & expecting him to act honorably & not selfishly exploit/abuse that power. (Because we are ALL 'money-addicts').

            An interesting fact about Ellen Brown: her ex-husband worked for years for one of these alleged 'NGOs'- USAID, I think – non-govt non-profit 'helping' organizations, many of which are CIA fronts. (a la CONFESSIONS OF AN ECONOMIC HITMAN, by John Perkins).

            Here are a couple of sounder money experts: G. Edw. Griffin (author of the xlnt CREATURE FROM JEKYLL ISLAND), & Jim Pulava, Financial Sense Newshour.


            • bleep_hits_blades

              Here are a couple of sounder money experts: G. Edw. Griffin (author of the xlnt CREATURE FROM JEKYLL ISLAND), & Jim Pulava, Financial Sense Newshour.


            • Spectrometising


              yes, yes yes yes… i know and have read extensively about Garry North, and his almost despotic hatred of Ellen Brown. Typical for someone of substance to attract some critics.
              I spent a lot of time looking at Gary North but tired of his endless crusade against her.

              The phenomena is well documented.

              All you have to do is decide what you wish to look for, a person or an idea? What are you looking for??

              Was it Ellens idea??

              Nothing new under the sun, the answer is no.

              Was the greenback a currency without substance??

              What about North Dakota.??

              Australia was doing perfectly fine thank-you whilst the great depression was in effect. Why i can hear you asking????

              The reason is because we created our own bank which funded the Snowy mountains hydroelectric scheme. The Commonwealth Bank. The rest was sold recently by a PM at the time Paul Keating.

              You need to look less for scandal, and more for facts and history.

              Do more research.

              You can do better than look for scandal and personalities.

              • Spectrometising

                *The reason is because we created our own bank which funded the Snowy mountains hydroelectric scheme and so on.

                • Spectrometising

                  I would add, stick more to facts and theory and less to personalities.

                  • Spectrometising

                    Since you are keen to debunk.

                    Who owns all the gold, and who is going to re-allocate it in the scenario of so called honest money??

                    In my study of history, i have observed times have changed with respect to the idea of pegging a currency to gold, if, the central banks who got bailed out now own all the gold.

                    At this point, even Ron Pauls eyes get a glazed look.

                    • Spectrometising

                      And in response to your opening statement about Ellen Browns theory, she does not say that the private banks should all be removed, and so forth, she theorizes that the state owned banks would be working alongside the privately owned banks. In my best understanding.

                      "What is public banking?

                      Sunday, April 15, 2012
                      Public Banking: A Saving Grace?

                      The Public Banking Institute (PBI) web site notes that the Quakers in the colony of Pennsylvania first introduced public banking, and other colonial governments also established public banks. Today only the state of North Dakota has its own bank. Noteworthy, perhaps, North Dakota is the only state with a significant budget surplus. It also has the lowest unemployment and default rates in the country. These facts support the inference that having a state-owned bank does not impede economic wellbeing and may even help to sustain a healthy economy during a time of general recession."

                    • bleep_hits_blades

                      This is why I by and large have stopped participating here as much as I used to.

                      Your rebuttal contains no real information. You are not interested in checking out the new info I suggested you take a look at. You probably won't even bother to follow up on any the links I provide.

                      Instead you see it as a 'me against you' issue that you take personally and you respond to me personally, just looking for an easy way to refute me that won't make you do any research or maybe have to admit that your information was in error.

                      I've been studying the money issue for about 25 years and have read several books and talked to a couple of very smart people I was lucky enough to meet. It has been a major interest and research subject of mine.

                      What about you?

                      Why not actually check out the links I provided? You might actually find them interesting and you might actually learn something about a centrally important subject concerning which we all have been kept in ignorance.

            • charlie3

              Bleep and Spectro, let's not waste energy or distract from the key issues here by bickering with each othet, please, please, please.

              • Spectrometising

                charlie3 Thanks,

                With respect, the question of money/finances is a central subject matter of this particular thread, and is rightfully an area of paramount concern.

                The essence of my view/others is that it does not need to be the end of Japan as an additional insult to the damage already sustained, Japan needs financial freedom to deal with the problem.

                In Australia, we were able to completely escape the effects of the last great depression by the creation of our now sadly privatised Commonwealth Bank, which provided fiat currency without interest to the government at the time, when it was still a publicly owned utility/sovereign bank.

                I mentioned the "Bank Of North Dakota" because Ellen Brown rightfully draws attention that this is a model which can be used again whilst it is one of the only publicly owned sovereign banks to still be in existence.

                I addressed with links and key paragraphs, sentences, sources, and some commentary by me to the best of my understanding on the solutions in the past,

                I personally look forward to hearing from KingofthePaupers on his own personal view and why he thinks it is so,

                • Spectrometising

                  The Greek financial crisis does remind me of the Japanese financial crisis, and it is not the fault of hard working greeks or Japanese. It is the fault of entities given rights greater than those of any individual that are responsible, and that consume their host like a Dracula, and steal their medical rights, human rights, the roof over their head, their land and their children.

                  Any token of value like the Yen/gold is worthless in a world that does not have clean air, water, food.

                  The real value of any nation should be somehow attached to the value of the people themselves. In this respect, a Japan that values its people has infinitely/vastly/unimaginably/exponentially more value than a Japan that does not. Whilst it is owned by parasitic entities like privately owned banks, and the nuclear industry there, the debt can never be socialised.

                  What Helen Caldicott fails to mention/recognise. is that It is not Japan that is finished/dead, it is the nuclear industry, banks. parasitic financial institutions that are the dead intrinsically, and by their very nature.

                  These are already dead/finished, kaput.

                  Notes and erata: I refer to Dr Helen Cadicot as "Helen Caldicott" when i am theorising about financial matters because like myself, she is not a doctor of economics.

                  My parting comment on this after sleeping on it.
                  I hope someone can elaborate further on this pressing financial aspect.

    • Thanks for that KOTP, listened to the whole thing.

      We are getting low-level radiation right now, all over the world so it bears repeating. (It seems we even have a low-level radiation thread here, so maybe double-post over there too).

      Written version here:

      Deadly Deceit, Low-Level Radiation, High-Level Coverup

      Important names mentioned:

      Dr Jay Gould
      Benjamin Goldman
      Kate Millpointer
      Dr Ernest Sternglass


      Chris[topher] Busby

    • charlie3

      I'm amazed but pleased that The king of the Paupers has found this site…and I'm very glad that he is applying his considerable intellect and energies to the issue of Fukushima.
      For those of you unfamiliar with him, Mr. Turmel was miles ahead of everyone on banks, bankers and the monetary system, predicting our current economic problems years ago.
      This should be interesting…

    • arclight arclight

      @kingof the paupers
      @king of the paupers

      i have decided to have an opinion on your "activism"…

      strikes me you are not into promoting the anti nuke cause..

      350,000 children at risk and you dont want inform your readership

      strikes me more of marketing your argentine solution…
      (word to the wise.. that solution is what WILL happen when the markets crash anyway, lots of countries have such schemes in place (though underused) that will be initialized by the lack of cash.. its a no brainer for survival and is worthy backing.. however, enenews is a campaigning site as well as an info site and most here are aware of the contents of the book you read.. and more up to date info too!
      you need to research AND take sides imo! not hide your worries about dose issues in some dusty corner of you tube imo!!
      ".. for the decriminalisation of marijuana to fight the cancers coming from the Japanese low-level radiation…"

      from the hidden video description

      no mention of the plight of the children of fukushima (a BIG theme on enenews for some reason.. but talking about dope!… should dull the sound childrens pain WHEN cancer develops!


      i gave you the benefit of the doubt.. now i have only doubt

      proove me wrong KING of the paupers.. please!
      research the dose question better
      mention the dose issue concerning said 350,000 children
      AND let your viewers know

      then i will put you back on my interesting list
      off to delete the description until you sort out your…

      • arclight arclight

        @king of the paupers
        meant delete the subscription to your you tube account
        me bad
        ADHD and dyslexia (as a result of over air testing perhaps?)
        family from west coast of ireland.. MAJOR cancer area too?

        SORT IT OUT DUDE!!

        they need help!!

        15-Year-Old Kokoro Fujinami's Speech: "Nuke Plants Are Ticking time bombs

        uploaded by a true campaigner who understand the issues, tokyobrowntabby (her you tube account has been blocked by big corp)

        hope you step up to the challenge…

        NO NUKES NOW!

        ps dope is good for the side effects of cancer treatment.. lets stop the need for that kind of support

        good health eating limits the chance of disease and keeps your mind focused (step 1 to good health)

        dope makes you eat chocolate and other rubbish and screws with your sleeping pattern (not step 2 to good health)

  • Pat Kittle

    Nuclear power would have never been considered an option in the first place if humans hadn't fantastically overpopulated themselves.

    Tragically, influencial people like Caldicott never spoke a word of caution about overbreeding.

    The results of such dereliction were predicted — billions of humans (& non-humans) face ever-worsening misery.

    Malthus was right.

    • charlie3

      Over-population is certainly a problem, but the nuke industry is an offshoot and a continuation of World War II combined with greed.

      • Pat Kittle

        World War II was itself a resource war driven by fantastically overpopulated humanity.

        Of course humans don't behave ideally — which means we're even more fantasically overpopulated than we would be if humans did behave ideally.


          @Pat Kittle: you're drawing conclusions from false analogies. Resources were a factor in WWII as they are in all wars; modern or otherwise. Therefore, it is a mistake to think that resources were the driving force behind that (or, for that matter, any-other) war. Wars are usually the result of unproductive ideologies, or what I'd like to suggest is the lack of ideas.

          Overpopulation can lead to conflicts (wars) if there is no attempt to manage such increases. But again, high-density populations are not the single cause of those conflicts. Rather, it is the continued mismanagement of the needed resources.

          What's important in all social settings is the underlying ideology of the citizenry. Given the right state of mind, humans are capable of interacting peacefully, under most any condition…

          • Pat Kittle

            Right-wingers & left-wingers agree:

            "If only everyone behaved (by my definition of) ideally we could have endless growth in our finite world!"



              @Pat Kittle: don't misunderstand. I totally agree with your take on smart management. We have cultivated the myth that freedom means having the unfettered right to exploit. It doesn't. Being free entails accepting the responsibility of one's actions. Those in power are buffered from the consequences of their actions, with wealth. The great unwashed must contend with scraping the flesh from the bones of the loser.

              I wish others understood how easy it would be to resolve conflicts, with the application of self control. But they won't when they're simultaneously being seduced by the loss of it…

    • I keep hearing the "earth is overpopulated" matra repeated over and over again, but I've yet to see any evidence that the earth is in fact overpopulated. It is MORE populated yes, but is it really overpopulated?

      That is, given a sphere with surface area S and a population of N where is the proof that S cannot support N?

      I just want to be careful we're not simply parrotting a line put out by nefarious people to justify depopulation measures that might result in the unnecessary deaths of millions of people.

      So, no, I wouldn't be too quick to point out that Malthus or eugenics is right.

        • We're creeping into offtopic-ness here … apologies.

          Mine can be [removed].


            @Pu239: agreed. Just the same, it is an interesting one in it's own right. Ciao…

            • Pat Kittle

              I said:

              Nuclear power would have never been considered an option in the first place if humans hadn't fantastically overpopulated themselves.

              How is that "off-topic"? Overpopulation is a taboo subject, but that in no way makes it irrelevant.

              It IS the problem. Fukushima is a symptom.

              • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar anne

                Sorry, nuclear energy is not caused by increased population since it is the most expensive energy resource. Nuclear energy is caused by the greedy scheme of stealing for the wealthy tons of money from taxpayers. It is also promoted by people who don't know enough to know what the consequences of man-made radiation are.

                Fukushima should never have been built on landfill and porous sedimentary rock. Instead of acknowledging that mistake, it has been perpetuated to avoid anyone knowing how much it costs to decommission a nuclear power plant. It should have been shut down instead of the cover up of numerous failures in safety checks.

                How typical. Blame the masses and not those who are running the nuclear industry.

                We had the information to convert to solar and wind back in the 1970s. But those skimming off the money from the masses sent subsidies to the nuclear industry instead of helping everyone to convert to solar. If everyone were self-sufficient with wind and solar, no one would be complaining about overpopulation.

      • Pat Kittle

        As the most predatory apex predator the world has ever seen, it's absurd that our numbers (TEMPORARILY) run into the billions, with even more billions projected within a matter of decades.

        Nature will solve our overpopulation problem for us if we are too arrogant/fearful to confront it ourselves. It always has, and always will.

        Reduce births, or increase deaths — the choice is ours, and it looks like we've made our choice, doesn't it?

      • Sickputer

        PU239 typed these pixels of light: "I keep hearing the "earth is overpopulated" matra repeated over and over again, but I've yet to see any evidence that the earth is in fact overpopulated. It is MORE populated yes, but is it really overpopulated?"

        SP: No, it is not. Texas has 25 million residents and is nearly twice as large in size as Japan (127 million). There are huge amounts of dry land uninhabited on planet earth. The problem is politics and nationalism. Or to put in book title format: The Territorial Imperative.

        Erudite Baby Boomers didn't miss the tomes of Morris and Ardrey in the 1960s.

        Excerpt: African Genesis (1961) and The Territorial Imperative, two of Robert Ardrey's most widely read works, as well as Desmond Morris' The Naked Ape (1967), were key elements in the public discourse of the 1960s which challenged earlier anthropological assumptions. Ardrey's ideas notably influenced Arthur C. Clarke and Stanley Kubrick in the development of 2001: A Space Odyssey,[3][4][5][6] as well as Sam Peckinpah, to whom Strother Martin gave copies of two of Ardrey's books.[7][8][9][10][11]

        • Sharp2197 Sharp2197

          Yes there is plenty of room for more people. But that is not the problem, we need arable land to grow the food for those people. Resources are limited, therefore, I would say yes the world is over populated.

          • Sickputer

            Sharpie sez…we need arable land to grow the food for those people

            SP: Yes, land can be reclaimed to be arable(bear witness the Dutch), but by the time the frackers and Harold Simmons get through fukuing the underground water in America it won't matter that land can be reclaimed…they will have destroyed the potable water needed for non-mutant survival.

            Oh people will exist, but their lives will be short, painful, and cancerous.

            • Sharp2197 Sharp2197

              Right now, there are a billion people out hauling water and gathering firewood to cook their meal. Unless every human on earth cuts their energy needs in half, Stop buying bananas from Guatemala, stop buying cars from Japan, stop buying crap from China, stop buying spice from india, turn your winter thermostat down to 60, turn your summer thermostat up to 80.

              There is no way the earth can comfortably accomodate another 5 billion people.

              I think the ultimate answer will be when we see the numbers turn downward in the next 30 years, by then it will be too late and they will go far lower than todays population.

            • Sharp2197 Sharp2197

              BTW SP just say the name of who you are responding to and respond, we are smart enough to read the story of the other person without u wasting space rehashing our comment.

        • Pat Kittle

          The "huge amounts of dry land uninhabited" you refer to are dry all right — would you have us desalinate sea water to irrigate them?

          That's seriously energy-intensive, but since we've now perfected fail-safe nuclear power maybe that shouldn't be a problem?

          BTW, that land is NOT "uninhabited" — millions of other species still exist, despite overpopulated humanity driving them extinct faster than anything since the K-T asteroid. Quite an achievement, don't you think — we're knocking off our fellow Earthlings at the fastest rate in 65,000,000 years. But so what, right?

          • Sickputer

            PK sez:"The "huge amounts of dry land uninhabited" you refer to are dry all right — would you have us desalinate sea water to irrigate them?"

            SP: Look at all the money the US government has blown on dope wars and Mideast wars just to name two (graft sounds like a big one also). They could have diverted water from the Missisippi (maybe helping save several stinky nuclear plants from flooding) and bult a canal to the western states. Couple that effort with massive sun power and wind generation in the Southwest which could power the nation easily.

            But that's utopia….we all live with dystopia and the territorial imperative of the DC naked apes makes sure their honey pot projects for the military and GE-type companies are well-fed with the blood of the 99%.

            Same thing around the world. Deserts might not all be reclaimable, but there is open land in Africa, South America, and Eurasia that could double the current world population if mankind would harness green technology. But mankind is not that smart nor kind.

              • Lacsap Lacsap

                Being packed like a herd of sheep in money city's and the suppressing free clean energy that is the problem and not over population. If you want to get rid of weed you have to take it at it root (which is the elite who control the money and oil)

            • Pat Kittle

              "Green" techno-fixes don't refute the simple fact that endless growth in a finite world is absurd, and the pursuit (or enabling) of it is insane.

              "Diverting" rivers brings unintended consequences — beach erosion, species die-off, levee collapses, etc. All in the cause of allowing human numbers to (TEMPORARILY) rise even higher.

              EVEN IF humans behaved "ideally" which they never have, don't, & won't anytime soon, we would still be still crusin' for a real serious bruisin'.

              Any volunteers to live near Fukushima?? Didn't think so. That's OK, Fukushima is coming to you.


              • Sickputer

                This is a financial thread for Japan so this topic is valid (i.e not offtopic). I hope. *;-)

                Pat sez: "Green" techno-fixes don't refute the simple fact that endless growth in a finite world is absurd, and the pursuit (or enabling) of it is insane."

                SP: I don't advocate "endless" growth…just said the earth could support double the present population with proper management of resources. Besides…who says we all have to live on this finite world? A Green "techno-fix" might enable travel to other worlds. We have been very techno at times.

                Diverting rivers is not as mad as building nuclear plants. I think Boulder Dam is quite safe. One of the bigegr issues in diverting rivers has not been erosion, but individual farmers/corporations/industries taking massive amounts of water for their use, denying it for downstream users. Man can't agree on how to supervise resources fairly. As you write they don't act ideally.

                I think if we can land on the moon we should be able to stop the mega disaster at Fukushima Daiichi. We probably spent in 2012 dollars about 20 trillion dollars over the fifty years of the US space program.

                China, Russia, India, and America could chip in a trillion dollars each in resources to solve the issues at Daiichi. Admitting the disaster is a near extinction-level event is the big stumbling block. To agree publicly that Japan's nightmare is so bad is a sure fatal bullet to the nuclear industry. They won't come…not yet.

                • Pat Kittle

                  You really don't understand ecological limits.

                  But let's assume you're right that "the earth could support double the present population…"

                  Most people who make such a claim never tell us HOW they propose that the population stops growing at that point.

                  So tell us, seriously, HOW??

                  • Sickputer

                    PK typed these pixels of light:

                    "Most people who make such a claim never tell us HOW they propose that the population stops growing at that point.

                    So tell us, seriously, HOW?? "

                    SP: In a utopian world we would be very laid back and not so serious. *;-) Just kidding.

                    If they could get along at 14 billion I guarantee they could work it out for ZPG.

                    This made me think of other species that did go extinct, like the auk, the 3 billion passenger pigeons, the 60 million American bison (aka buffalo). All those were wiped out in decades. Before recorded time we think that Taylor's bison (longer horns and double the size of the buffalo) had larger numbers than the later buffalo.

                    It is believed and I subscribe to that early Paleolithic man theory that 100 million or so Taylor's bison were wiped out by fire, stampedes over cliffs, and modern Stone Age implements (Clovis and Folsom points, reinforced bow from the Bering landbridge migration at the end of the last Ice Age 10,000 years ago).

                    Those early Americans spread quickly from Alaska down to the tip of South America. The Europeans immigrants trimmed their numbers considerably in the past 500 years.

                    So what's my point? Man is historically from time immemorial a hunter and a killer, a naked ape that came late to cultivation and has decimated meat sources without much thought of conservation. He is the master of the planet, but his own worst enemy.

                    • Pat Kittle

                      Presumably you were going to tell us how your allegedly sustainable population of 14+ billion humans would stop growing once it reached that size.

                      Rather than telling us, you lamely "guarantee they could work it out for ZPG."

                      I repeat:

                      Most people who make such a claim never tell us HOW they propose that the population stops growing at that point.

                      So tell us, seriously, HOW??

                    • @Pat Kittle This is a moot point. Here's why.

                      Personally, I think we could have easily sustained 50 billion or more.

                      There is plenty of 'room' on this planet. We could live in domes in the ocean or underground or build skyscrapers. There is physical room for lots of people.

                      The real issues become clean water, air and food. If we hadn't contaminated most all of our precious resources, like the Pacific Ocean, etc… there's no telling 'how many we could have eventually sustained.

                      Note: I'm using past tense.

                      BUT NOW, I really don't think population expansion is going to happen or can happen, thanks mostly to the Nuclear Overlords and their Nuclear Death Machines surrounding our planet.

                      I don't think there is a conspiracy to depopulate. I think they were/are just arrogant greedy fools who are cowards that hide behind a corporate/political/media veil of secrecy. (lies)

                      Our ability to obtain truly uncontaminated food and water will increase with difficulty as each day passes that Fuku spews goo.

                      How many people will survive? I don't know.
                      How many will be affected? ALL!!!

            • Sharp2197 Sharp2197

              Why would you want to double human population, look what is happening now, keep in mind that we have added a billion in the last 20 years.

  • MaidenHeaven MaidenHeaven

    Malthus wrote of the relationship between population, real wages, and inflation. When the population of laborers grows faster than the production of food, then real wages fall, because the growing population causes the cost of living (i.e., the cost of food) to go up. Difficulties of raising a family eventually reduce the rate of population growth, until the falling population again leads to higher real wages

    "A circumstance which has, perhaps, more than any other, contributed to conceal this oscillation from common view, is the difference between the nominal and real price of labour. It very rarely happens that the nominal price of labour universally falls; but we well know that it frequently remains the same, while the nominal price of provisions has been gradually rising. This, indeed, will generally be the case, if the increase of manufactures and commerce be sufficient to employ the new labourers that are thrown into the market, and to prevent the increased supply from lowering the money-price.10 But an increased number of labourers receiving the same money-wages will necessarily, by their competition, increase the money-price of corn. This is, in fact, a real fall in the price of labour; and, during this period, the condition of the lower classes of the community must be gradually growing worse.

  • MaidenHeaven MaidenHeaven

    First we MUST consider WHO claims that the world is overpopulated…The UN claims it to be so…so it must be so?!?!? Really?!?

    Claiming that the world is overpopulated is done with the intent of making the remaining resources more valuable. And as result it *allows Corporations to artificially increase the price of these items.

    So stop & think a minute, we know that just as a result of the wars & poisons in the food & water & radiation that the worlds population is actually falling & will continue to do so as the population ages.

    "Europe is the poster child for this phenomenon, where the total fertility rate is below 2.1 in all 27 EU nations. The problem is so bad in Russia, which may shrink by 25 million people in the next 40 years, that demographers are referring to a population crisis. This will put an enormous strain on Russia's economy as the government struggles to care for its aging population."

    Haven't you heard the reports about how the aging population will but a strain on the healthcare system? Haven't you heard about the school closures & reduced enrollment?

    We know that the reduced labor & technological advances have increased production with both agriculture & goods. We can simply look at the billions in profits that Corporations continue to make even as economies around the world are failing.

    • MaidenHeaven MaidenHeaven

      Both the U.s & Canada are eliminating Fair Wages act as a way to force down the cost of labor even further. This entire issue about overpopulation is about artificially decreasing the cost of labor even more & increasing the cost of resources & goods.

      This then takes care of the aging & slower population growth around the world as well as to the death of millions becasue of disease & the poisons that we are bombarded with. Once the prices go up, they do not come down…unless its that special sale. 😛

      So they will make at least the same profits with a smaller world population. Even through they will be paying even less for production than they are now as they force down the costs of labor. But do it now before so many of us die off.

    • Pat Kittle

      Corporate big-shots LOVE population growth — more customers & lower wages.

      Ever think of that?

      • MaidenHeaven MaidenHeaven

        Indeed you are correct, but as I stated, we know that the populations around the world are aging & that large numbers of people are dying from disease & poisons. The numbers of deaths will increase sustainably as a result of Fukushima. Add in the additional robots that will lower the cost of production even further.

        So the elite are simply preparing for it by claiming there will be a shortage of goods thereby increasing its cost.

        • Pat Kittle

          Yes, we've established the fact that humans do not behave "ideally" – they tend to exhibit short-term self-interest.

          Banksters are an obvious example.

          Overbreeding is a less-obvious but no less real example.

  • Jebus Jebus

    Stick a fork in it! Japan is done as a world power…
    They are approaching a third world status.
    A warning for all the nuclear nations.

    Japan's fiscal death is a warning to the West

    The historic current account surplus of 3pc of GDP has evaporated. Last year's Fukushima disaster was the coup de grace. Japan will switch off (has switched off) its last nuclear reactor in May, leaving the country dependent on oil and gas imports to power its industry.

    • Pat Kittle

      The ingenious & hard-working Japanese, far more than anyone else, made their infrastructure quake-resistant & tsunami-resistant.

      • However, they are not 'fool proof' resistant and never will be.

      • Jebus Jebus

        Kittle auys,
        "The ingenious & hard-working Japanese, far more than anyone else, made their infrastructure quake-resistant & tsunami-resistant."

        Kinda of an ironic statement, don't ya think?
        We see how that has worked out for them now.

        • Pat Kittle

          That's exactly my point — if even the Japanese can't make nuclear power safe, what does that say about everyone else?

  • waves4me

    Pat Kittle is spot on and so eloquent…. Seems like the prime directive for species is reproduction. We have been to damn successful i guess??!! My family thinks im crazy for not having children. As if im being selfish. But what kind of future lies ahead…..???

    Jebsus try shorting the Japanese Yen. Ive been trying for quite some time suffering financial loses. The world still sees the Yen as a safe haven currency… Kinda crazy…

    • Pat Kittle

      Thank you.


      I also want to thank Pat for cutting to the quick.

      We deem reproductive rights as being fundamental to our humanity. But such right is naturally limited to ones ability to gather sustenance. I have no right to impose upon (the freedom of) others by asking that they sacrifice themselves (personally, socially or environmentally) to ensure the survival of my progeny. Pretentious social mores carries no weight when it comes to cleaning a polluted river. We're long past waffling over the implications of population's impact on our environment.

      Again, thanks for getting in our faces about this…

      • Sickputer

        AF writes these words of praise:

        "Again, thanks for getting in our faces about this…"

        SP: Seriously? You might like it, but if I want to induce angst I will generate it toward far more deserving creatures than Enenewers. Wrestling with petty semantics is as useless as wrestling with a dirty pig. Color me g-o-n-e from this thread. I am sorry if I pushed some hot buttons, but if you reread my posts it never went down like that.

        • Pat Kittle

          Presumably you were going to tell us how your allegedly sustainable population of 14+ billion humans would stop growing once it reached that size.

          Rather than telling us, you lamely "guarantee they could work it out for ZPG." Then you get all huffy when your bluff is called.

          Civilization's epitaph: "We'll think of something!"

          • You're into the field of mathematics here Pat – specifically growth and decay curves. That is, like bacteria, they grow exponentially for a time then reach a maximum due to overcrowding, resource-depletion and other factors. The population kills itself off automatically after that.

            "It is well to remember at the outset that what is born must die: even the Sun and our Planet have a life ending in death. What goes up must come down. Biological growth starts with an exponential multiplication (1- 2- 4- 8-16…….) as each cell divides, but because of constraints (mainly space and family planning for human beings) growth declines and population reaches a maximum and declines to death."


      • Pat Kittle

        Well said.


          Well, I agree that on the face of it, this topic skirts the periphery of the article, at hand. Yet, I can't help but enjoy your (supposedly) aggressive position on it. I even sense from the response of others, that it's equally enticing to them. All said, welcome to the site!

  • waves4me

    My experience with water and farming tells me that we humans are facing some significant challenges. Its not a surprise that birth rates are dropping in developed countries. Look at Japan. Our biosphere is in serious decline. Technology and economics are merely subsystems. My work is hands on and i can tell you that much of our soil is in bad shape… Not much debate on that.

    Big changes coming. I sure hope humanity ceases nuclear energy ASAP! Only drawback would be increased instant demand for coal and gas until alternative baseload could be put online.

  • Sickputer

    PK typed these pugnacious pixels of provocation:

    "Rather than telling us, you lamely "guarantee they could work it out for ZPG."

    I repeat: [blah, blah, blah]

    SP: No need to shout dearie, I heard you the first time. I wasn't advocating or supporting anything in this theoretical discussion. You have made this thread lame, not me. Go pick your petty word fights with someone who wants to beat a dead horse ad nauseum.