Dr. Koide: Massive amounts of radioactivity may again be released from Fukushima — Mentions “steam explosion” after melted fuel hits water

Published: September 9th, 2011 at 7:33 pm ET
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Radiation expert says outcome of nuke crisis hard to predict, warns of further dangers, Mainichi, September 9, 2011:

Hiroaki Koide, radiation metrology and nuclear safety expert at Kyoto University’s Research Reactor Institute shares what he thinks may happen in the coming weeks, months and years

[...] At present, I believe that there is a possibility that massive amounts of radioactive materials will be released into the environment again. [...]

[I]t is necessary to keep cooling the No. 2 and 3 reactors, which are believed to still contain some fuel, but the cooling system itself is unstable. If the fuel were to become overheated again and melt, coming into contact with water and trigger a steam explosion, more radioactive materials will be released. [...]

Published: September 9th, 2011 at 7:33 pm ET
By
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170 comments

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  1. China syndrome inevitable says architect of Fukushima Reactor No. 3 — Warns of massive hydrovolcanic explosion — Melted fuel inevitably sank underground November 19, 2011
  2. AUDIO: US gov’t experts think melted fuel rods landed in water under Reactor No. 2, causing STEAM explosion — Pressure dropped dramatically at same time — Clear indications primary containment lost March 2, 2012
  3. “Huge steam explosions” if nuclear fuel hits water… Just a matter of time before corium melts through Fukushima station: Former secretary of UK gov’t committee (VIDEO) November 21, 2011
  4. NYT: Experts suspect melted fuel may be threatening groundwater — “Battle of epic proportions” says Koide — Concerns over recriticality December 16, 2011
  5. Goddard’s Journal analysis indicates steam explosion at Reactor No. 3 — NRC discussed steam explosion ejecting entire core (VIDEOS) April 10, 2012

170 comments to Dr. Koide: Massive amounts of radioactivity may again be released from Fukushima — Mentions “steam explosion” after melted fuel hits water

  • acid Lab acid Lab

    it was the number one concern of gorbachev at chernobyl. he said that scientists and engineers told him that if they didn’t stop it from happening then much of eastern europe would become uninhabitable.

    it seems odd that it hasn’t been more of a topic of discussion.


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    • Atlantis

      it has alerady been, juste here. but there is tons of this “non surprising declaration” (that are many month too late and far incomplete anyway) to flood the news and dilute true analysis. just reporting these so called “independant expert” declaration is just a waste of time, energy (!) and action.


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  • acid Lab acid Lab

    also, i hope the character limit on posts applies to everyone… getting pretty tired of the endless spam in the comment section.


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  • StPaulScout StPaulScout

    Reactor number 3 appears to have blown up. Did this guy just awaken from a comma? Even the NRC conceedes this point already. Another dope paraded out before the cameras trying to fool the idiots…..


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    • acid Lab acid Lab

      this guy is talking about the corium coming into contact with groundwater by burning through the concrete containment vessel (CCV). in other words, what we know popularly as “the china syndrome”.

      at reactor #3 it’s very likely that a steam explosion occurred inside the CCV and blew out the contents of the reactor pressure vessel (RPV) which had melted/fallen down into the CCV.

      what was sitting at the bottom of the CCV consisted of corium, broken fuel rods, and broken fuel racks… combine this with a massive amount of superheated water and hydrogen and you have a recipe for avoiding “the china syndrome” by simply blowing it straight out the containment lid.

      radiation for everyone! yaaayyy!!


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      • Pensacola Tiger Pensacola Tiger

        “this guy is talking about the corium coming into contact with groundwater by burning through the concrete containment vessel”

        No, he’s not. He is speculating that if there is fuel still in the RPV, and if that fuel were to melt and fall into the pooled water in the bottom of the RPV that there may be a steam explosion.

        Corium coming in contact with ground water will cause steam, not a steam explosion.


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        • acid Lab acid Lab

          “No, he’s not.”

          yes, he is.

          he speculates that reactor #1 has melted all the way to the point that it “may be seeping into the ocean and groundwater.” furthermore, he adds, “It’s doubtful that there’s even a need to keep pouring water into the No.1 reactor.”

          as far as a steam “explosion” occurring from groundwater contact, that remains to be seen. at chernobyl it was a very real and catastrophic possibility. at fuku, nobody really knows what will happen. it might already be happening… we just don’t know.

          he also believes that reactors #2 and #3 still have “some fuel” in the RPV. how much is up for debate, but a recurrence of the steam/hydrogen explosions is still a real possibility.

          another possibility is a corium melt to groundwater of the large amounts that most likely exist at the bottom of each CCV.


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          • Pensacola Tiger Pensacola Tiger

            Please read the article:

            “It’s doubtful that there’s even a need to keep pouring water into the No.1 reactor, where nuclear fuel is suspected to have burned through the pressure vessel. Meanwhile, it is necessary to keep cooling the No. 2 and 3 reactors, which are believed to still contain some fuel, but the cooling system itself is unstable. If the fuel were to become overheated again and melt, coming into contact with water and trigger a steam explosion, more radioactive materials will be released.”


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          • acid Lab acid Lab

            @pensacola tiger

            i did read it… multiple times.

            and before you told me to.

            remember, my original reply was to StPaulScout and his knowing sarcasm.

            everybody knows that the ongoing problem with #2 and #3 is the potential for more steam explosions. i say “more” because it’s almost certain at this point that’s what occurred at #3… and probably what occurred at #2.

            hence, the sarcasm from StPaulScout.

            also consider this, the headline for the article on mainichi says “further dangers”… it’s only here on enenews.com that we see “steam explosion” in the headline.

            while koibe certainly is concerned about further steam explosions in #2 and #3 he also believes (my assumption) they are managable.. ie, just keep pouring water on them. (for now, anyway)

            but look at what he says about #1… he says that it’s a full blown melt through. the corium blob is totally in the wild. no containment.

            can’t pour water on that.

            would your reaction to this article be different if the headline proclaimed, “FULL BLOWN CHINA SYNDROME IN REACTOR #1. CORIUM BLOB RUNNING LOOSE!!… oh, and btw, there’s some steam stuff that could still happen on #2 and #3 if some dummy forgets to leave the garden hose on”


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    • lokay5

      Or maybe from an asterisk?


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  • Sickputer

    Unit 3 had a big explosion, but I doubt the all the fuel is depleted. Unit 4 at Chernobyl had a massive explosion and fire, but it still has fuel in a corium today, 25 years later. Haven’t seen any NRC statement to the effect Unit 3′s core fuel was totally ejected.


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    • acid Lab acid Lab

      there’s very likely still plenty of fuel in reactor #3, but the chance of it blowing up the way it did before are slim. that’s because the superheated steam building up in the concrete containment vessel (CCV) is able to continuously escape through the nice holes burned through the edges of the containment lid in the initial explosion.

      so it seems that the corium is sitting at the bottom of the CCV, where it’s slowly burning its way to groundwater.


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      • BreadAndButter BreadAndButter

        No. 3′s CPV lid has no holes.
        No. 3′s CPV has NO LID.


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        • acid Lab acid Lab

          it still has a lid.

          if you have proof that it doesn’t please post a link and a brief summary. make sure the link contains visual evidence.


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          • BreadAndButter BreadAndButter

            Hi acid lab, have a look here:
            http://www.scribd.com/mobile/documents/55934120
            This guy analyzed some of the drone photos. It’s a lengthy document, but I found it rather convincing. Enjoy ;-)


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          • BreadAndButter BreadAndButter

            I guess most convincing is the picture of unit 3 with “something black and round and steaming” in it. Which looks like a CPV without a lid.
            Could all be wrong – he does not claim to be correct. But I could follow his conclusions.


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          • acid Lab acid Lab

            hi breadandbutter :)

            thanks for the link… my opinion remains the same:

            the containment lid remains intact but is allowing steam to escape through holes in the outer rim area.


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          • BreadAndButter BreadAndButter

            Acid lab, so we happily agree to disagree on this one… cheers ;-)


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          • acid Lab acid Lab

            lol… i wouldn’t say happily.

            read this person’s thoughts about how reactor #3 exploded (no conspiracy stuff :( … just straightforward detective work :) )

            http://lewrockwell.com/orig4/goddard2.1.1.html

            i posted a comment on another site about this article:

            “the only thing i would add is that the secondary upward explosion (after the containment vessel lid lifted) occurred in what appears to be an annular (ring-shaped) fashion. that is, steam shot out all the way around the perimeter of the containment lid but was bound by the throat of the containment vessel. and when the pressure release was over the lid settled back down.”


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          • Jebus Jebus

            B & B, I agree…
            I say it’s gone from the top of the reactor.
            I have posted magnified captures of the reactors(Gates of Hell, Bowels of Hell) showing the exposed fuel assemblies and the hole around them.
            Even if it just snapped all the bolts and settled down on top after the explosion, CONTAINMENT WAS BREACHED CATASTROPHICALLY!
            The biggest truth that the nuke industry does not in any way want to admit, is that a nuclear reactor has breached its containment. That is the cardinal sin for the industry. That is the foundation that they rely on to keep the lies shored up.
            “Can’t possibly breach containment”
            Just like, “No one has died directly from a nuclear accident”

            Jumping from an airplane without a parachute doesnt kill you directly, It’s the rapid accumulation of the lack of altitude that does.


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  • WindorSolarPlease

    Now that I made it to my 60th birthday today..Will I make it to my 65th, without problems, how about to my 85th, or am I pushing it?


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  • many moons

    I don’t understand why there will be a steam explosion when the corium hits the ground water. Hasn’t water been dumped into the reactors (coming in contact with the corium) since the accident occured. Wasn’t it used to cool the core vessel and because the vessel was breached actually come in contact with the corium? Why is the ground water a problem??


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    • It is the result of temperatures becoming unstable… The reactor housing keeps the fuel cool and circulated.

      But, if the fuel is cooled on the outside, and hot on the inside it reacts like a miniature volcano…
      Except the explosions are not miniature…

      They will be just as devastating as when the reactors melted down. Sending highly contaminated radioactive debris globally through the planets soil, ground water, ocean currents, trade winds, and jet streams.

      Expecting even higher radiation signatures from isotopes, in much larger quantity of dispersion…

      While already at this time, California cattle are giving 255cpm in their biological matter.

      Chernobyl, X ____ = __?__km’s of contamination.
      (1). Find the missing factor to solve.


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    • WindorSolarPlease

      Is it just number 2 and number 3 with the worse case scenario, or are there more?
      One reactor in trouble, is to many for me.


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      • Reactor 1 is a full scale china syndrome. The fuel is causing massive ground water and oceanic contamination. (complete containment failure of fuel).

        Reactor 2 is said to be cooled below boiling point and the fuel is in a controlled state of criticality and shows no significant breaches in containment.

        Reactor 3 is a semi stable run away train… It has containment failure but in a state of inconstant criticality. The fuel is being cooled and the fuel pool is below boiling point.

        Reactor 4, is in a state of cold shutdown.
        Although nuclear fuel has escaped from several fuel cells inside the Fuel storage pool of the reactor. So, Tepco is maintaining the temperature of the fuel manually If they fail to keep the fuel at stable temperatures inside the pool, it could eat its way through the floor of the pool. Which would lead to a list of new problems.


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      • WindorSolarPlease

        I am still learning and sometimes this all gets confusing.

        To me, no matter which reactors are in the worse shape. They all look pretty pitiful to me.

        This is the mess of all messes.


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        • lokay5

          I believe the correct connotation would be;

          “The Mother of All Messes”

          I STILL cannot believe that the rest of the world is suffering a severe case of Cranuim Anus regarding Fuku.


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  • arclight arclight

    Friday, September 9, 2011
    TEPCO Dumps 565-Page Report on Early Days of Crisis, Says No Re-Melting of Reactor 3 Fuel

    “NISA nor any government agency asked for the report, but TEPCO apparently volunteered. The voluminous data is supposed to refute the claim by certain researchers that the melted fuel at the bottom of the RPV in Reactor 3 may have been re-melted on March 21 and went through the RPV and dropped on the floor of the Containment Vessel, releasing a huge amount of radioactive materials as evidenced by large spikes in air radiation throughout Tohoku and Kanto on that day.”

    “In the press conference on September 9, TEPCO released these charts as part of the evidence that there was no re-melt. TEPCO’s translation is just as bad as the man who pointed finger at TEPCO livecam, but I hope the charts speak volume:”

    and a link to the article and charts of the 9 september

    http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/09/tepco-dumps-565-page-report-on-early.html


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  • many moons

    If there are more larger explosions wouldn’t that cause a hazard to the nucke plants in surrounding area. Why aren’t they all secured in cold shutdown until the technology to deal with nuclear accidents is invented?


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  • Once the tent is up, how does tepco plan on continually injecting nitrogen into the reactor rpv well, while at the same time repairing elements of the cooling systems and restoring containment functions in Reactor1?

    In my mind wont the accumulation of radiation inside the reactors Will rise significantly making this task impossible…

    I was under the impression that the reactors are uninhabitable at this point in the crisis…

    So why are they wasting their time building an outer containment structure; that will only hamper their efforts to prevent more internal damage to the reactors fuel assemblies?


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  • NeverAnyDanger

    It seems the fuel melted down and out in the first few days. It must have gone thru the concrete and into the earth a long time ago. If it’s still very hot how come it hasn’t already hit the water table and caused an explosion?

    I can’t seem to get my mind around where the melted messes might be. Recently Tepco said they thought much of the fuel was still in the RPVs – after admitting the ‘fuel’ melted out.

    Maybe they aren’t going to build an underground dam to stop the fuel sinking because it’s already sunk past that point..It’s been 6 months!


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  • James2

    You think the tents have any real purpose of “containment”?

    The most highly engineered containment structure on earth couldn’t contain the radiation – if anybody believes a tent will, I have a bridge deal I want to talk to you about..

    The only thing the tents will contain is daylight flowing from the surface of the junkpile to any cameras that might be watching. This will allow them to say or do whatever they want.

    However they forgot about that pesky little uncontrolled fission problem. The tents will glow like and will attract as much attention as a blue light in the beer aisle at Kmart.


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    • WindorSolarPlease

      Hi James2

      You could be very right about the tent hiding things from the camera.

      I don’t want that blue light special, but thanks for the needed laugh.


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    • Terranigma1 Terranigma1

      I was a big tent fan, but now that I realize that the tents will be vented via a big stack, they have to filter that stack in some way with a carbon or HEPA filter. Then you have the problem of removing the filter, replacing it, and destroying the old one. (More nuclear waste) Dr. Busby also believes that a tent will help. Vent stack needs a filter and needs to be monitored.


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  • Fuel melted out of containment via the rpv, pooled into the basement, over time…

    eventually coagulating in the basement of the reactor.

    Slowly over time the fuel had ate its way into the bedrock below the concrete foundation of the reactor.

    Now its a question of when…

    Michiu Kaku
    “Fukushima is a Ticking Time Bomb”

    While cooling is taking its affects on the exterior of the corium; The interior of the fuel becomes more and more internally unstable. This can result in a hyper criticality or explosion. The fuel is designed to stay in a atomic reaction. So tipping the cooling balance results in grave consequence…


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    • WindorSolarPlease

      Does he have any idea of how this ticking bomb can be stopped?

      We all know that this, will not heal and get better by it self.

      Is there a way to get that fuel out of reaction mode?


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      • larry-andrew-nils

        gold can stop this.

        lead can too, but gold can do it without adding extra badness.

        your god “gold” can save you, but like my god, your god will only help you if you help yourself…

        so you will probably not live… and by extension, the body i am in will also be killed.

        all this because you won’t fucking listen and put gold on the melt… all this because your gold is much too important… and because you are intellectually retarded.

        gold will fix this problem.
        but people want to die rich, not poor, isn’t that the goal?… NO, THAT’S NOT THE GOAL.

        THE GOAL INVOLVES KNOWING THAT OUR SOULS ARE KEPT ALIVE AFTER DEATH TO EITHER BE REWARDED OR PUNISHED.

        (and if i try my best to save us in the only way possible… ‘USING GOLD TO STOP THE MELT’ perhaps i will not be punished for my iniquity.)


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  • markww markww

    BOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM


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  • BreadAndButter BreadAndButter

    I don’t understand how the readings in no 1 can drop so low in no time. If the meter is not defective, as tepcoclowns want us to believe, shouldn’t all of the meters’ surroundings be so radioactive that it’s impossible to read 25 sv/h now, when it was 325 sv/h just 6 hours ago??
    http://atmc.jp/plant/rad/?n=1


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  • Cambie

    The good thing about Chernobyl.

    Strange to think that there was anything good about it, but in hindsight:
    Chernobyl was a carbon reactor. Carbon is a better moderator than water and can use a lower enriched fuel. Chernobyl had only two percent. To make uranium react in a light water reactor a highter enrichment is used. As worried as the Russians were, their fuel was unlikly to go off in ground water.
    In Fukushima there is nothing to stop it.


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    • acid Lab acid Lab

      cambie, look at the first comment on this page.

      once gorbachev and the other higher ups (not the higher ups at chernobyl, of course) realized what was truly happening at chernobyl they started to freak out. it wasn’t just the initial release of radioactivity that bothered them so much. or even the massive ongoing releases.

      what truly bothered them was the potential for something far worse… like the catastrophic explosion if the entire mass of the corium and reactor were allowed to slump down into the ground water. gorbachev has stated on tape he was told that, “if such an event occurred much of eastern europe would be rendered uninhabitable.”


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      • Cambie

        Read again the post that you replied to. The lower enriched fuel at Chernobyl might have made some steam if it had hit ground water, but it wasn’t going to achieve fission in water. The fuel in a light water reactor is designed to achieve fission in water.

        The fuel from a carbon reactor will just cool as decay heat dwindles, and can’t have the sustained fission required for a China effect. Light-water fuel can.


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        • acid Lab acid Lab

          lol… it’s no longer “reactor fuel” once a meltdown occurs. IT’S MOLTEN CORIUM.

          i’m pretty sure the standard rules of reactor physics don’t apply to giant blobs.

          but, more to the point, fission wasn’t necessary for the situation that most terrified the soviets with chernobyl. it was the possibility of a giant steam explosion occurring underneath the reactor that would likely have blown the entire plant to smithereens and made the whole complex uninhabitable (even for short periods).

          and just to clear something up… in the previous post i used the term “ground water”. what i meant wasn’t the actual ground water but the large amount of water (approx. 20,000 tons) that had accumulated in the massive pressure suppression system underneath the reactor.

          only through suicidal efforts was this water eventually drained and replaced by concrete… probably the single most important tactical victory in “the battle for chernobyl”.


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          • lokay5

            Thanks for clearing that up for Cambie, acid. You can’t moderate a blob. Period.


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          • acid Lab acid Lab

            @lokay5

            thanks for the insult. not a surprise that you can’t refute anything i’ve said.

            cambia seems to think that “two percent” fuel couldn’t “go off” in ground water. which seems reasonable enough.

            but what if that “two percent” fuel transforms into 2600C corium? how would it react then? you do realize that localized portions of the chernobyl corium were up to 10% uranium, right? and much of the rest was over 5%?

            of course, you do.

            but back to the point, the very notion of water acting as a “moderator” on a corium blob as it hits groundwater is a bit far fetched. if either one of you could explain how it’s even possible for water to interact with a 2600C hunk of corium without instantly vaporizing/exploding do tell.


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          • Cambie

            Well acidLab, if you are determined to make it an argument and win it, whatever you think it might be about, then I concede in advance. I am not refuting anything you said because you haven’t addressed the subject yet.

            You might want to explain how two percent uranium enriches itself to ten percent when melted.


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          • acid Lab acid Lab

            the enrichment (of uranium-235) doesn’t increase to 10%, but the amount of 2% enriched uranium reaches (by weight) from 4-10% in portions of the corium due to the variety of compounds formed at temperature. this was determined by post accident analysis.

            no one was concerned about the corium mass at chernobyl undergoing a fission explosion (ie, a sustained, out-of-control chain reaction). it was virtually impossible. in the same vein, no one cares about the corium masses at fuku experiencing a fission explosion. again, virtually impossible.

            as far as not addressing the subject, you’re joking right? you seem to think the “China effect” is dependent upon some sort of “sustained fission”. actually, the “China effect” is dependent upon the temperature and size of the corium mass and its ability to burn through the reactor bottom and sink into the surrounding environment.

            with this in mind, the “Russians” were desperately afraid their fuel would “go off in ground water”.


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  • WindorSolarPlease

    How long can this go on, before it effects us all?


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    • It already is affecting us all…

      The worst part is radiation is a poison.

      You overdose on it…

      Once you have ingested your maximum limit you are kaput. It is accumulative to boot.


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      • WindorSolarPlease

        I do believe it’s effecting us in Canada, US, Mexico.

        I know I had problems in April and right now, both times showed higher readings.

        Our new Grandson keeps projecting spit up, they changed the formula, and the pediatrician says not to worry. (yeah right)

        Sorry, I didn’t word the question right. How long will it take, to undeniable effect us all?

        I know we can’t take layers after layers of this stuff.


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      • Tacomagroove, no actually the worse part is radiation is a poison that has no smell or taste and is invisible. So if you drove through a highly radioactive cloud, you would not bother to wind up your windows like you would if you were driving through a cloud of smoke from a tire fire. Yet the radio-active cloud might be more deadly then the smoke from a tire fire. Thats what makes it so easy to lie to everyone.

        Tacomagroove you posted once a water filter link.

        Would you be so kind as to re-post?

        And to Windsolar please. There is no way to know for sure I don’t think radiation spreads evenly so one spread of land might be contaminated while the neighboring land is ok. We are all forced into a game of chance.


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        • WindorSolarPlease

          Hi Mark,

          I could see where radiation, be in one part and not another part of a country if it was a smaller disaster, or if they could stop or control this.

          However, so far with Fukushima, this is the mother load of radiation. I don’t see how the US can escape it, at all.

          It’s coming through the jet stream layers after layers after layers, and we are in it’s path.

          It will be in the water, food, air. I don’t think anyone will be able to run from it in the US, unless they have shelter with provisions.

          I could be wrong and I really hope I am.

          If this theory is correct, I just don’t know the time table that it would take for us to see the undeniable effect on all of us, years or months?

          Since this has never happened before, maybe no one knows.


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          • James2

            Well if you call premature deaths and stillborns an “undeniable effect” we are already seeing them.

            Based on what I’ve read of historical research, the cancers will come in 12 to 30 months and will continue at a decreasing rate for a couple hundred thousand years.

            If plutonium dioxide was introduced to the jetstream in the explosion of #3 or #4 in any significant quantity, it will be an unstoppable avalanche of deadly cancer in the lungs and bones. Disposal of bodies will be a problem, as most disposal methods will simply recycle the deadly particles.

            If we are lucky, and that is not the case, then it will be a high increase in thyroid cancer and a marked increase in many other cancers.

            Bomb shelters are not effective, as they are temporary, and the fallout is not a one-time event, and the food and water supplies are already contaminated.

            The northern hemisphere will get it worse than the southern initially, but eventually there is nowhere to hide.

            The very worst case scenario is that this causes such mass economic and health destruction in Japan that other nuke plants are allowed to melt down in a domino fashion. That, in my opinion means extinction on earth.


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          • WindorSolarPlease

            Thank You James2

            12 to 30 months is not a very long time.

            Even though I think we are already in trouble, I hope you are wrong.


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          • Terranigma1 Terranigma1

            James2, my friend’s son (he and his wife lived in Ohio their entire life) had a stillborn baby before Fukushima. Why is the U.S. ranked 41st in infant mortality?? That’s a very bad number for such a wealthy, industrialized country. My relatives’ native Slovakia ranks higher than the U.S. in infant mortality. You have to wonder if this statistic is related to our nuke plants and unreported nuclear disasters. And what about autism? None of my Slovak relatives have an autistic child! Slovakia is not that far from Chernobyl, BTW.


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          • James2

            I know nothing about infant mortality or the rates.

            My guess is the US isn’t really that far behind all those other countries, but instead there is an inconsistent measurement problem that would account for the difference, but I have no knowledge or experience to back that up.


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  • midwestern midwestern

    “Tepco submits heavily redacted copy of Fukushima nuke accident manual”: http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20110908p2a00m0na022000c.html


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  • CindyH

    It is reprehensible how the sheep cry out, to those who caused the problem, begging that they rectify the situation.

    Ancient Egyptians rulers mummified their bodies knowing that their “gods” were able to manipulate DNA enabling the revitalization of the life force into a physical vessel. A promise of resurrection from those who defiled every component of creation..

    The root cause for this was a hatred of all that is good in life, at life’s most subtle level.

    In time radiation will alter the most basic fabric of every living thing on this planet once again. Those in control worship Lucifer and believe his lie as before.

    History repeats itself.

    The only hope you have is Jesus. The savior of this world.

    If you think this is folly, then, just keep watching, and crying.

    A big hello to ZombiePlanet.


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  • Pallas89juno Pallas89juno

    the propaganda meme is that the corium “may make contact with groundwater” or that it still has to melt through the concrete. OMFG. Do most in here really fall for this sort of thing? The corium is already in the earth/water table beneath at least reactor 1 (R1), if not similar conditions beneath R2 and R3 and maybe, who knows, a similar situation with the SFP and that’s NOT conspiracy theory; that’s rational extrapolation of reality.


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    • I would agree with you Pallas89Juno. I remember reading that Fuki was built on reclaimed land or something like that so basically the ground isn’t bedrock so there will be no explosion as Tacoma has predicted. But there will be continual radioactive steam and water being created and I am selfishly praying to God that it doesn’t reach me or my kids. Can honestly say I have never experienced this total censorship that is going on.


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      • Pallas89juno Pallas89juno

        Dear Mark: You have. If you read mathematical linguist MIT scholar, Noam Chomsky’s, “Manufacturing Consent”, you’ll see that there are unending things on which the public is lied to about by the rich scumbags at the top. Though this is a huge problem; now with things, in order of importance like: Fukushima Dai ichi nuclear core meltdowns (absolutely uncontained), anthropogenic thermal maximum (euph. global warming) and mass extinctions, the stakes are off the charts. There is no time. Everyone’s children, all of us, and most lifeforms are being noosed and slowly hauled up over the branch by the quadrillions of bequerels of radiation being released and uncontained in any way from Fukushima, every day. The amount of radiation being released daily now for the past six months is probably a far greater amount so far than all the above ground testing that occurred before this event. Someone try to provide a reasoned mathematical analysis of this concept for me. I would appreciate it.


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      • Pallas89juno Pallas89juno

        Dear Mark: It’s late where I am. I meant to say thank you and that I think you’re right that the coriums are beneath their buildings and in the landfill that FukuDai is built upon. I especially agree that the perpetual generation of steam is the reality with these corium interactions in the substrates (wet or dry) beneath their reactor containment buildings. I also fully agree or think that the ocean and fresh water water tables are being exceedingly contaminated by these cyclically fissioning coriums, which are not sleeping or cooling or contained, just cycling and will continue to do so for thousands of years without dividing them into small enough masses of the correct spread-out shapes separated from other parts of the corium by enough space so that the neutrons causing repeating criticalities can be subdued. Without changing the shape of the corium mass there is zero hope with current technologies. There is no way to stop a corium of sufficient mass and the correct thickness from producing neutron cascades and fissioning on cyclic bases for the next 200,000 years, minimum.


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      • There is potential for an explosion…

        I did not predict an “explosion” either.

        If you had read the post I wrote earlier in our threads… an explosion was only ‘Listed’ as a theoretical possibility, in the resulting of a china syndrome…

        People take me out of context a lot.
        sigh…


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      • Steven Steven

        “Can honestly say I have never experienced this total censorship that is going on.”

        How would you know?


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  • Are the Russians surveying the radiation from the air?

    http://australiancannonball.com/2011/09/10/russian-bombers-circle-japan-tepco-trying-to-restart-its-nuclear-reactors-9-9-2011/

    I had a wtf moment seeing this. Truly surprising and no it is not a joke.


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  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl3BNQ6cHGM

    The type of nose bleed I have witnessed around WA.

    Strange plasma / Very stringy accompanied by severe dizziness..


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  • pure water

    Hi, all!
    This news about the Russian airplanes fits the picture. Thank you Australian! The Russians are very cautious about the accident. They are much more reserved in their news than USA. Official new, I mean. But they know and all the big powers know. And try to learn more. So – something is changing. I was thinking about this when The Japan officials start to confess. The Russians are hiding the contamination in their far east areas. Any way the officials run away, and people knew what is it about. They are safe, as far as i know socialist type of decoding the situation.
    I really do not know, but it is high time for the international atomic society to take responsibility.
    They know Tepco (and have underestimated its faults), and they have the capacity to offer a solution. Mr. Busby is right – they are responsible and they have the capacity to perform a brain storm attack of the problem. It is not a national problem. It is a global problem and everyone who can do something will benefit humanity.
    I respect Russians for their ability to find simple and fast decisions.I have heard the same from you. So I am glad thy want to know more.


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    • Terranigma1 Terranigma1

      I trust the Russians much more than the Tepco and U.S. govt. clueless, gutless, spineless, money grubbing technocrats running this show!


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      • VanneV anne

        Nuclear pollution in Russia
        “DNIPRODZERZHYNSK, Ukraine (AP) — Twenty years ago, when the Iron Curtain came down, the world gagged in horror as it witnessed firsthand the ravages inflicted on nature by the Soviet industrial machine. “……….Drifting along Ukraine’s Dnieper River, past this one-time powerhouse of Soviet rule, requires slicing through clouds of black and orange exhaust from a metallurgical plant.
        “Over a hill, passengers may catch a whiff of a burning garbage dump. Nearby fields are fenced off by barbed wire with signs warning of radioactivity. Farther along, the cruise passes the world’s third largest nuclear power station.
        “Upstream from Kiev, the Ukrainian capital, the Dnieper picks up water from the Pripyat River, whose sediment is still laced with radioactive caesium-137 from the 1986 Chernobyl nuclear disaster………………….”
        http://nuclear-news.net/


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      • VanneV anne

        Siberia Nuclear Waste

        “ In Siberia, 3000 kilometers from Moscow lies the Siberian
        Chemical Combine. This facility was part of the Russian nuclear
        program since the beginning of the Cold War. After almost 40
        years of producing weapons grade nuclear material, the reactors
        were shut down and the facility now serves as a storage site for
        radioactive material and a uranium enrichment facility. In 1993 an
        explosion occurred at the facility contaminating almost 120
        kilometer2 of the surrounding province of Tomsk. For the first
        time in the accident plagued history of the Soviet/Russian nuclear
        program, the Russian Government notified the public of the
        incident. However, the cult of nuclear secrecy that permeated the
        Soviet Union seems to be re-emerging in the Russian Federation….+
        http://www1.american.edu/ted/sibnuke.htm


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      • VanneV anne

        Mayak
        “Mayak was the site of one of the worst nuclear accidents in history, along with the Fukushima and Chernobyl disasters. An explosion in 1957 released 50-100 tonnes of high-level radioactive waste, contaminating a huge territory in the eastern Urals. The Soviet regime kept this accident secret for about 30 years. Working conditions at Mayak, and a lack of environmental responsibility in the past, led to additional contamination of the surrounding lake district and severe health hazards and accidents. Some areas are still under restricted access because of radiation. In the past 45 years, about 400,000 people in the region have been irradiated in one or more of the incidents.[2]…”
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayak


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      • VanneV anne

        Nuclear waste poses Arctic threat
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6058302.stm
        More than 100 nuclear submarines from Russia’s ageing Northern Fleet have been decommissioned at various military bases around the peninsula, north of the Arctic Circle.
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2117666.stm
        Nuclear Pollution in the Caspian Sea
        http://www.payvand.com/news/03/jun/1061.html
        Russian official warns of nuclear pollution risk
        http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3738/is_200212/ai_n9150502/
        Chelyabinsk: The Most Contaminated Spot on the Planet
        http://www.wentz.net/radiate/cheyla/index.htm
        Tsar Bomba (Russian: Царь-бомба) is the nickname for the AN602 hydrogen bomb, the most powerful nuclear weapon ever detonated.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba


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      • VanneV anne

        High-altitude nuclear explosion

        “The worst effects of a Russian high-altitude test occurred on 22 October 1962 (during the Cuban missile crisis), in ‘Operation K’ (ABM System A proof tests) when a 300 kt missile-warhead detonated near Dzhezkazgan at 290-km altitude. The EMP fused 570 km of overhead telephone line with a measured current of 2,500 A, started a fire that burned down the Karaganda power plant, and shut down 1,000-km of shallow-buried power cables between Aqmola and Almaty [5]….
        “List of high-altitude nuclear explosions
        “USSR – 1961 tests – Kapustin Yar
        • Test #88, 6 September 1961, 10.5 kt, 22.7 km
        • Test #115, 6 October 1961, 40 kt, 41.3 km
        • Test #127, 27 October 1961, 1.2 kt, 150 km
        • Test #128, 27 October 1961, 1.2. kt, 300 km….
        “USSR – 1962 tests – Kapustin Yar
        • Test #184, 22 October 1962, 300 kt, 290 km
        • Test #187, 28 October 1962, 300 kt, 150 km
        • Test #195, 1 November 1962, 300 kt, 59 km….
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-altitude_nuclear_explosion


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  • Darth

    Arnie says tenting #1 does not stop the venting of the radioactive steam – the intention is to vent it through the tall stack. Guess what that does? It lofts it higher so that it disperses everywhere else rather than in the immediate area.


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  • BreadAndButter BreadAndButter

    Asahi Shimbun: Radiation fears lead to population decrease in Tokyo
    http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201109090231.html


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  • Radiation fears lead to population decrease in Tokyo

    Lol.

    All this time the community here thought it was the high levels of radiation that are causing the current populations decrease…


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  • “110,000 cubic meters of radiation-tainted water.”

    I think we all know, this was exceeded long long ago ! LONG Past articles show this to be !


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  • Those nosebleed videos made me wonder… I used to have nosebleeds sometimes when I was little.I haven’t had them for many years now. Chernobyl happend when I was 3 years old, and I live in Portugal. I found out a couple years ago that I have a little bit of hipotyrodism too. Could those things be related?…


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    • arclight arclight

      from my understanding, there are many thyroid conditions that can be caused by iodine, here is a link to many sites

      hipotyrodism chernobyl

      http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=hipotyrodism+chernobyl&b=&fr=ie8

      i got this

      Chernobyl’s Continuing Thyroid Impact
      The 1986 nuclear accident and its continuing impact on thyroid disease
      By Mary Shomon, About.com Guide
      Updated December 15, 2003

      “In addition to thyroid cancer, there is another thyroid related problem due to Chernobyl’s radiation release. According to the medical journal, Lancet, children exposed to radioactive iodine due to the Chernobyl nuclear explosion may be more likely to develop hypothyroidism. Research conducted at the University of Pisa showed that exposure to Chernobyl’s radiation caused the children to have more antithyroid antibodies than other children. These antibodies may cause the children to later develop hypothyroidism.”

      http://thyroid.about.com/cs/nuclearexposure/a/chernob.htm
      there are differing reports on this topic. but remember that no nuclear official studt has looked at the impact of the chernobyl disaster!

      i might recommend using metacrawler to search for these and similar terms also! peace


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  • As these corium’s have burnt through the earth, water caring sediment’s and large amounts of mud have flowed and fallen in the holes behind them building up on top of them I would think and being baked from the heat may have hardened into a clay ?

    This would make it harder for water to reach the corium’s for cooling so the corium’s may be burning hitter and hotter, or saturation of ground water is reaching them becoming hotter on the closing in on the radiation heat reaching out form them to heat the water gradually to boiling producing steam. So it is hard to say “Is the injection of water is reaching down the burn holes to the corium’s to cool or is it adding to the water they have no way to depose of and much of is entering the ocean through cracks ! If they stop adding water, they may lose cooling affect, catch 22 !!

    If water become scarce were the corium’s are then burns through to a source THEN there may be a rapid boil and steam explosions ! A drop of water becomes 1,700 times it’s size in a mili-second and very HOT !
    As water is reaching so far, it seems the steam is forcing the earth under the reactors to crack and split the earth or finding it’s way through earth cracks from earth quakes allowing the steam to vent to surface slow enough avoiding and explosion’s, but if a rapid mass of water was to come into contact while the corium’s are very recriticle there may be far too much steam produced to allow seepage to the surface but a massive…


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  • explosion’s bowing huge chunks of earth and possibly fracturing the plant as well adding itself into the debris field, all of that will be super radioactive possibly barring any worker to enter the area without certain contamination causing death soon after, this would make the cleanup of the area around reactors impossible in manual efforts !

    I would hate to think about anyone in the area at a time !

    My guess !

    : |

    Yes arclight, had to re-type some, …. arrgggh !


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  • midwestern midwestern

    Minister Hachiro sorry for calling Fukushima plant area ‘ghost town’: http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20110910p2g00m0dm013000c.html


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  • James2

    And I bet he’s packing his bags and leaving the country as soon as possible after seeing the nuke disaster firsthand.

    Sure sign of unrest in Japan. Before long they will not be able to get any intelligent life to take one of these positions, and you can imagine how fast things will progress from that point forward.


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    • Yes and that was the immaculate prognosis given by an astute nuclear engineer whose research revealed that the proposed German SNR 300 fast breeder reactor at Kalkar would explode like several Hiroshimas. He predicted a scenario of personnel deserting the like of Fukushima disasters resulting in blackout overall and the nukes all left without cooling and general chaos. That was in the 1990s. At the current rate of somnambulism the world over this will come about soon. And I must emphasize once again because of the positive feedback effects of modern civilization. And this will result in the universe plunging into the what science calls a blackhole.and after 4.32 billion years of lying fallow the world will spring back again into life….


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      • His name: Richard E Webb. He predicted this for Europe. The next scene is France probably.


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        • BreadAndButter BreadAndButter

          Ramaswami, I’m also worried that the next disaster might take place in France. They even heat their homes with nuke electricity, the idiots. Though lately from what I’ve read up to 70% of the population would prefer to abandon nuclear – not that their elite would care…


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        • VanneV anne

          RK, thanks for this info. Here is your blog from Aug. 9, which I had copied then:
          The potential for explosion like several Hiroshima type bombs is discussed in this context here:
          http://technidigm.org/c5001/nucl_haz.htm
          R E Webb is a PhD in Nuclear Engineering and has analysed nuclear meltdown scenarios.
          a sample in the Fukushima context from the URL:
          A meltdown of the reactor core would pose the danger of a catastrophic steam explosion, due to the interaction of molten fuel and any residual water in the reactor vessel. The full potential of such steam explosions is of the order of 100,000 pounds of TNT equivalent explosion. The involvement of just ten to twenty percent (10-20%) of the core fuel mass could cause a steam explosion of such a force to propel the 100-ton reactor vessel closure head upwards to a height of the order of a kilometer. The nuclear industry and the nuclear licensing authorities (the NRC in America, though an unconstitutional government body, in my opinion) claim that the probability of a catastrophic steam explosion given a core meltdown is low, because of a contention that the efficiency of an interaction of molten fuel with water to convert thermal energy into destructive mechanical energy would be low. However, this contention is mere assumption, based on inadequate miniature-scale experimentation and unscientific and arbitrary interpretations of the results of the experiments. In fact, in a 1984 experiment at Sandia Laboratories in the United…


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          • VanneV anne

            States a surprise “spectacular” steam explosion occurred in a small-scale fuel melt simulation experiment that destroyed the test facility; and the chief scientist for the experiment has published an analysis concluding that a fully efficient thermal-to-mechanical energy conversion in the observed explosion cannot be excluded. (The efficiency was not be measured in the experiment, perhaps due in part to the destruction that occurred.) In Great Britain, a small-scale steam explosion experiment resulted in damage to the simulated reactor vessel – a fact not revealed to the public by the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority (UKAEA), who conducted the experiment, until I inquired into the facts of the experiment, when I confronted the authorities with evidence that damage had occurred. Furthermore, the UKAEA has refused my requests for a disclosure of the full details of the experimental results, which are needed so that one could determine just how energetic and efficient the observed steam explosion was; and they refused my requests to examine the test facility and question the scientists who performed the experiments.
            http://enenews.com/kyodo-unit-3-mox-melted-mixed-uranium-plutonium-oxide-fuel-dribbled-after-melting-again/comment-page-1#comment-117148


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          • VanneV anne

            DR. RICHARD E. WEBB
            Some excerpts from his lawsuit:
            “The Plaintiff asserts that nuclear power plants have been developed in the United States, by unconstitutional aids, licenses, and regulations, primarily to supply much of the electrical power needed to run the enormous industry and vast array of business which directly or indirectly produce and support the weapons systems and the enormous U.S. military establishment that is deployed all around the globe, with both its nuclear and non-nuclear weapons, as cruise missiles bombs, and that it is that industry, including the auto and oil industry needed so that all the industry workers and military personnel can travel to and from work every day, and to truck around all of the materials and products, that causes the ‘global environmental problems’ of pollution, of global warming and horrible climatic effects, as huge tornados now in the United States, and more intense UV radiation from the sun, &c….

            “Also, his book, The Accident Hazards of Nuclear Power Plants, contains his analysis of the United States Constitution in respect to nuclear power plants, which affects most other activities of the United States as well, including ‘foreign aid’.”
            http://www.animatedsoftware.com/environment/whistleblowers/RichardEWebb/ComplaintSectiononUSWarsandNATO.pdf


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  • pg

    Check it out. Radiation up around 6 cpm all across the states. http://www.radiationnetwork.com/
    Texas, Fl, several other places normally had around 3-4 cpm, now double or more. My area in NY went from 8 to 14. I am also getting gamma CPMs now with my probe closed. I have 3 completely restored and calibrated CDV-700s. When the probe is closed it detects gamma only and not beta. They all do the same now. Even in my basement where I used to get around 1-2 CPM with the probes open making them more sensitive. I now get 4 CPM with the probe closed! I also called friends around the country, they are also getting CPMs with their probes closed. This started last week. Not sure where it is coming from but it is coming.


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  • bleep_hits_blades

    Re the ‘tent’, why they are building it, I recall Gunderson saying it is to channel & vent the highly radioactive air up higher, thus lowering the radiation level at the working area, allowing workers to remain in there working for longer periods. Arnie said that is all it would do or is intended to do.

    Re the Russians getting involved, & maybe ‘riding to the rescue’ I would not place too much hope in that.

    At this point, the situation is well & truly out of control, I believe [actually, from the get-go it was]. It really doesn’t take the proverbial rocket scientist to figure that out. And tptb realize it, probably have from the start [they are not as stupid & inept as they would have us believe - crazy maybe, but they have known more all along than they have revealed to us, for sure]. I think TEPCO & the Japanese govt.(and other govts. – they all have dirty hands) are doing all this futzing around more or less as a delaying tactic. They don’t relish having to deal with several million ‘unhappy campers’ who are realizing that maybe they ‘have nothing to lose’- having already ‘lost it all.’

    This is a disaster of monstrous proportion, & there will be a cascade of consequences, a veritable avalance.

    The global elites’ foremost problem at this point is US – we the sheeple. If/when the sheeple finally smell the coffee – as consequences cascade – & get really really mad & desperate, it could be a challenge for ‘our corporate masters’ to handle. My…


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  • bleep_hits_blades

    My guess is that they probably have been ‘think-tanking’ the hell out of it – the problem posed by we the sheeple when we finally figure out how bad we been had.


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  • bleep_hits_blades

    Re lawsuits against the perps…

    The main problem I see is that there is a well-established international clique of power (in govt., media, banks, corporations) — in other words Diogenes, if he’s still out there seaching the corridors of power for a single honest [read: one not on the take] honest man is still coming up empty-handed.

    The law is nothing but men, and words… and the police powers to back up those words. But who controls the police powers? Who controls the governments (including the courts) of the world?

    Why, the same guys who done this to us…


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  • bleep_hits_blades

    Re the Constitution … all you have to do is look around you to see that, obviously, it is not in effect except as window-dressing & has not been for a very long time now.

    Fact is, we in the US are being governed under continuous emergency, have been for a long time, & that sets aside normal civil government and switches to emergency mode which is the govt. is run as a military dictatorship under the acting president as military commander in chief. Like a king, he (and his delegates, like courts) can make law by edict or utterance.

    Only ‘law’ is the Doctrine of Necessity, which holds that ‘necessity knows no law.’

    I don’t know about other countries, like in Europe, but I bet a similar situation prevails.


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    • BreadAndButter BreadAndButter

      Hi bleep, “old Europe” here…so far, no dictatorship in sight here. Government discusses if it’s necessary to hack some phones for “terrorism prevention” and keep the data for 6 months, but no, they won’t get away with that!

      Guess we learned the hard way what dictatorship & military do to the people.


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  • WindorSolarPlease

    From what I am understanding here, is that:

    Some think there might be an explosion or radioactive steam will just keep pouring out.

    BTW..Both of these don’t sound good.

    At home, I am the type of person who makes lists, when things should be done or gotten. Even at what time I should put the meat in the oven and what time the meat will be done, or in my case when the food will explode.

    Even though I don’t believe anyone knows for sure, I still like approximate time tables on things.

    If it was to blow in Fukushima, does anyone (who knows about nuclear things), have a guess of how long this would take to explode?
    Thank You


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    • James2

      you saw my earlier post on timetable for health effects. Please take that and everything here with a grain of salt. None of us know with any certainty what is going to happen.

      This is something that has never happened before. There is no timetable.

      The only thing I can tell you for sure about every prediction, good or bad, is that it is wrong. There will be some educated guesses, and some will be better than others, but nobody has a lock on reality right now.

      And this goes for the government people, the industry people, the medical people and the nuclear people. We are in 100% new and dangerous ground here.


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      • WindorSolarPlease

        Hi James2

        I understand that everything is a guess, and that this is new territory. I also know that at times you have to take things with a grain of salt, until it’s proven.

        Thank you for being concern))))
        I’m not ready for a heart attack, on this yet.

        As you already know so far,

        1..Fukushima gets the prize of having the worst disaster,
        2..We have jet streams,
        3..Radiation levels here are elevated, and 4..Fukushima has not been fixed.

        There had to been some type of inaccurate time table experiments made and what area’s it would effect, if they think there “could” be an explosion.

        Whenever a statement is said then comes the questions, when..where..what..and how.


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    • It’s NOW time to be concerned!(understatement)
      Logically proving why St. Louis RAIN is so HOT!

      China Syndrome…
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgQzBTcIhLU&list=PLD33AEE01FE5EBB75&index=14

      Gets very interesting after 6 minutes. “Pregnant women should avoid rain” – potrblog


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  • StillJill StillJill

    I agree with James2,…I just listened to Dr. Helen’s latest,…and I love her,..But, she said that, “Cancer in 15-20 years” thingy again,…like nearly everyone.
    Here’s the rub,…think of a hot particle as a disco ball,…only, instead of shooting rays of light,..it’s doing a micro tiny slice through WHATEVER it points at. Death by 1,000 papercuts. Why do you suppose ‘we’ have nose bleeds, or blood in our stool? Internal bleeding,…and, what do you suppose that 5-10 of these buggers,..like Arnie ESTIMATES Seattle, WA saw,…what do you suppose all those hot little paper cutting ‘disco balls’ are doing to our organs, bones, arteries, intestines,…etc,..EVERYTHING. Immune systems lasting 15-20 years UNDER THAT? Hardly :-(

    As one of our numerous cancer survivors,…do you really BELIEVE that my liver and pancreas can handle these’ disco slicers’ for 20 years? Oh P’leeeeze!


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  • Thanks to Bread and Butter and to veteran Anne for bringing in the vital question of thermodynamic efficiency and the RE Webb URL again into focus in this timely discussion. Heating level is at our body temp of 36 C so the room ambient is around 25C. Low grade heat source such as low pressure steam will be wasting considerably less energy than the use of a high quality source like electricity. Anne has recapitulated in dramatic fashion the consequences of such use of horribly unmatched energy source to achieve comfort(sic). Knowledge should be used so we are in harmony with nature. Fukushima is the pinnacle of evil for profit leading to suicide. Let’s all Webb as tightly as possible to prevent degradation so the collapse of the universe into the blackhole is delayed…


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  • bleep_hits_blades

    Bread and Butter,

    The European Union involves loss of national sovereignty and is a step towards the NWO – one world government – the ultimate concentration/centralization of government. The United Nations was/is another such stepping stone towards world monopoly government. The planned North American Union is another such step.

    Forcing developed nations with relatively large middle classes to accept impoverished immigrants from 2nd and 3rd world countries, where they compete for jobs, drive down the cost of wages, and drive wages down, and drive up the cost of housing is another step toward world government. This has happened and is happening in the US, European nations, and Argentina. History proves that oncentrations of power always move towards more totalitarian and less free governments.

    Also, Europe is much polluted by radioactivity; the corrupt nuclear power industry has had it way with governments in Europe, as in the USA and Japan.


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    • VanneV anne

      And in Russia and China and India and Pakistan and Iran.


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    • BreadAndButter BreadAndButter

      Hi bleep, I personally, as a member of the so-called middle class of a so-called developed country, don’t have the slightest problem with accepting refugees (“immigrants”) from third world countries.
      Because I think we made lots of our wealth on their backs. And still continue to do so. What gives the huge fish trawlers from Europe the right to catch all the fish along West africa’s coast? It’s a long ugly list.
      Immigration has happenend at all times, or where exactly do 90% of today’s US population come from??


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  • bleep_hits_blades

    @Band B

    In a nutshell, as I understand it, the impoverished 3rd world countries have corrupt governments that do not allow their people to get a fair wage for their labor. A big part of this picture is the mega corporate interests of the Euro-American establishment using the CIA & Company to destabilize/over-throw regimes in order to install compliant regimes which, in exchange for bribes in various forms, will allow Euro/Anglo-American corporate interests to move in & rape the people of the value of resources & labor.

    The people are exploited, kept dirt poor, uneducated, & know little about birth control. With a rise in the standard of living comes more education, & with more education comes knowledge about birth control.

    Instead of giving these peoples a fair/living wage & fair value for their nation’s resources, the corporate/banking elites have chosen the above path, & then to deal with the resultant over-population by forcing the developed nations to accept the excess population as immigrants who end up to a large extent having a negative effect on the countries to which they come (compete with native citizens for dwindling resources, burden social services, etc.). The legal & illegal Mexican immigrants in the US are an example.

    Bottom line – if people of a country do not want the immigrants, ‘their’ govt. should not force them to accept them. And the problem of the exploitation of these peoples by corrupt regimes in their native countries (in…


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  • bleep_hits_blades

    … instead, this situation is used to ‘divide and conquer’ the people of the developed nations — an example of which, is you & me right now.

    We both don’t want to see people suffering in 3rd world nations. But to fix a problem, we need to understand the problem – in this case, the underlying causality – the rapacity & corruption of the trans/national corporate elites. Underlying cause needs to be addressed, not the symptom/bad result dealt with by forcing developed nations to accept the burden of populations that it is not in their interests to accept.

    So-called over-population problem could have been prevented from occurring if only for the past many years the undeveloped nations had not been being so heavily exploited & kept in ignorance by the trans-national corporate/banking elites.


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  • pure water

    If the consumerism was not accepted by us all, it would not happen so. It is not easy to resist, but we have become just a small units in a big machine and forgot that we are much more a part of Nature than a part of the society.
    Nature does not make waste.
    Nature gives us all the important things for life.
    Nature is part of our bodies and we are part of it.
    Nature exists longer before us and has maintained mechanisms for compensation for so many things and events, that we have to accept it is wiser than us.
    Why we struggle with Nature?
    Why we try to invent culture outside Nature?
    You know the result…


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