FORUM: Off-Topic Discussion Thread (Non-Nuclear Issues) — New as of January 2017

Published: January 2nd, 2016 at 1:10 am ET
By

21,530 comments


Thread Guidelines: This off-topic discussion thread is posted to be used as a place for discussion of topics not related to Fukushima and/or nuclear issues.

Previous Off-Topic Discussion Threads (Non-Nuclear Issues) can be found here:

Published: January 2nd, 2016 at 1:10 am ET
By

21,530 comments

Related Posts

  1. FORUM: General Nuclear Issues Discussion Thread — New as of April 2016 January 1, 2016
  2. FORUM: Fukushima Webcam Discussion Thread — New as of April 2016 January 1, 2016
  3. FORUM: Upcoming meetings, gatherings, & demonstrations about energy issues September 1, 2015
  4. FORUM: Post Your Radiation Monitoring Data Here January 1, 2016
  5. FORUM: Petitions, Ballot Initiatives, Other Signature Drives (VIDEO) September 1, 2015

21,530 comments to FORUM: Off-Topic Discussion Thread (Non-Nuclear Issues) — New as of January 2017

  • razzz razzz

    Armstrong always predicted that US markets would rise as the Euro fails then next the Yen. This causes foreigners to take heir money out of their local markets and search for greener pastures. In this case it is the US stock markets. Monies looking for safe havens like in big name companies, is causing the US markets to takeoff to higher and higher new highs while US traders stand on the sidelines (holding their cash) looking dumbfounded.

    Even any pullback in prices will still recover as the trend is up for US markets. Once traders on the sidelines decided to buy in, US markets will then continue up to eventually reach nosebleed heights.

    Rising interest rates will help the savers and retirees.

    'The Dow 2-15-2017 – Looking Ahead'

    "…They cannot handle these levels and do not want to buy so they keep trying to find the sweet-spot to sell. This rally really has nothing to do with Trump. This is more about people getting really scared outside the USA and are looking to park money…"
    https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/markets-by-sector/stock-indicies/dow-jones/the-dow-2-15-2017-looking-ahead/

    • razzz razzz

      'Fed & Its Balance Sheet'

      "… Raising rates on Yellen’s party is doing exactly what I warned would unfold. As the dollar strengthens and Europe looks more questionable, the capital flows to the dollar creating the appearance of an asset bubble.

      The mainstream media have declared outright war on Trump. The higher the stock market, the more they will turn and blame trump saying he is just making his rich friends richer. This will feed back and compel the Fed to raise rates more to stop the asset bubble, which in turn will attract more capital to the dollar while sending emerging markets over the cliff.

      Welcome to the new exciting world of international capital flows."
      https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/uncategorized/fed-its-balance-sheet/

      Federal Reserve policy making follows the economy. It does not lead or control the economy. 300 million consumers can't be wrong whether they decide to spend money or not.

  • Mack Mack

    I dunno how to repost a 'gif' from twitter, so just scroll down 4 or so tweets to see video of Lake Oroville Emergency Spillway repair:

    https://twitter.com/tmillennialpost

  • HoTaters HoTaters

    Latest stats r on California Data Exchange Center:

    http://cdec.water.ca.gov

  • Sam Sam

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/02/15/super-soaker-atmospheric-river-taking-aim-on-beleaguered-orovilledam/

    11 inches of rain in the next ten days in the Feather River Basin draining into Lake Orovile.
    Dutchsinse mapped out the mid point of two 5.0 earthquakes on the West Coast and it was
    right at the Oroville Dam area. He predicted in the next 7 days a quake here in the 4-5 range.
    Lets hope not.

    How many feet will this projected rain raise, each day, the lake level w/o outflow? and with an outflow of 100,000cfs? Also this can be measured and reported in real time each day as well…….
    What is the inflow cfs from _______ inches of rain per 24hrs in the watershed.

    These projections need to be done and broadcast…. THIS CAN BE MODELED. THE DANGER
    ZONE OF WATER CASCADING OVER THE WIER DAMN CAN BE PREDICTED. EVACUATIONS CAN
    BE ORDERED AHEAD OF TIME . NOT WITH AN HOUR NOTICE BUT MORE TIME.

    If I was living in the Oroville Flood plain i would be packing now and leave based on the
    modeling. Better to be prepared and bug out then drowned.
    Oil companies need to bring in more tanker trucks to keep the gas stations supplied for the
    evacuation. It would be deadly to wait and see how the newly placed rocks works out when
    the emergency spillway overflows. Too late.

    This 11 inches does not include the snow melt from the warmer rain storm of next Tuesday.
    This does not look good.

    • There is no emergency planning, no forecasting. If someone knows, they don't talk about it.

    • HoTaters HoTaters

      Hi Sam, it has been modeled. Will see if the link to that discussion can be found. However, the person who did the inflow projection was acting on the assumption there would be snow melt comparable to what was seen with the last round of storms.

      Lake level was said last night to have been drawn down by approximately 0.1 million acre feet. That translates to lake level at 875 feet.

      An inflow of 40,000 to 45,000 during light rain is probably reasonable. What hasn't been made clear is the rate of inflow during peak rainy periods, and snow melt.

      The peak outflow when the emergency spillway was dumping was something on the order of 125,000 cvs.

      That happened after rainfall had ceased. There is a time lag between precipitation and runoff, drainage into the reservoir.

      Will see if the California Data Center has information on this. Am assuming this is in the domain of FERC and DWR engineered, so the public may not have access to this information.

      Posted a link to the data center last night. That's where California DWR posts their statistical information. It's the California Data Exchange Center, or CDEC. Here's the link for CDEC Flood Management:

      http://www.water.ca.gov/floodmgmt/hafoo/hb/cdecs/

      • HoTaters HoTaters

        Meant 40,000 – 45,000 cfs inflow may be a reasonable assumption. That assumption is iffy. Pretty hard to determine unless you have a good data set to work from.

        Can it be determined how many feet per day the lake level was rising during the last storms?

        Thought it had been mentioned lake level came up by something like 50 feet before the big releases began from the spillway. Unsure how many days that took, or what outflows may have been, when they began.

        Lots of variables: rainfall over particular days (varying), snow melt, air temperature, outflow, more. Someone would have to be familiar with this watershed or have really good information to do sound modeling. Three forks of the Feather River drain into this watershed, as well as a large portion of the nearby Sierra Nevada mountain range. The watershed drains a very large area.

        • Sam Sam

          You have some good info. Read that the lake rises 1" per 1'' of rain on the lake surface.
          That it takes 10 days for the watershed to drain into the lake. Lake level now at 869'
          with flood level at 901. Inflows at 34,000cfs as of early this am.
          So the next warm storm is on Monday into Tuesday with projected 5 to 6" or rain
          plus snow melt…… They have to keep releasing water at 100,000 cfs non stop.

          I too would think that this is modeled out but not disclosed to the public.
          UCDavis has an entire department for water management called Center
          for Watershed Science. Dr. Jay R Lund heads it. (530) 7525671

          • HoTaters HoTaters

            Sam is that one foot or 1' per 1" (inch) of rain, or a direct ratio of 1:1, inches to inches?

          • Sam Sam

            National Weather Service reportage an atmospheric river rolling into Feather
            River BAsin bringing up to 10 inches of rain. The last major storm brought
            20 inches of rain and peak inflows of 191,000 cfs. and raised the lake by
            50'. They are expecting a significant amount of new water. Lets hope
            the water managers know what they are doing?

            The water release from main spillway now being reduced to 80,000cfs to
            aid in debris removal to get the hydroelectric outflow going again.

            • HoTaters HoTaters

              We thought DWR would want to scale back releases so they could assess the damage to the main spillway. News reports today state they are in fact doing that.

              So reduced flows probably aren't due to the situation not being as potentially serious as anticipated.

              What's really going on IMO is they are trying to come up with a game plan to make it through the next round of storms incoming.

              Have a feeling there are some very serious issues with the main spillway.

              Haven't seen a lot of pics or videos showing the status of the main spillway since the morning of February 14.

              That's probably because there were a lot of helicopters flying and dumping rock over the damaged emerg. spillway.

              And there are drones flying over and monitoring.

              You can only have so many aircraft flying in a small airspace.

              It will be interesting to see if there is an update on the status of the main spillway.

              News crews have not (methinks) been able to issue updates on that. Or else having lifted the mandatory evacuation order, it is thought not to be so important.

              • AirSepTech AirSepTech

                I posted this blurb a couple days ago. One 'might' be able to grab the 'recorded rainfall' from this event and make some calcs on volume/rise/timing. I would think(hope) this is part of all the hulabaloo that is going on. How accurate it could be IDK, but they have 50 years of data to work with…

                "On December 22, 1964, disaster nearly struck when the Feather River, after days of heavy rain, reached a peak flow of 250,000 cubic feet per second (7,100 m3/s) above the Oroville Dam site. The water rose behind the partially completed embankment dam and nearly overtopped it, while a maximum of 157,000 cubic feet per second (4,400 m3/s) poured from the diversion tunnels. This Christmas flood of 1964 was one of the most disastrous floods on record in Northern California, but the incomplete dam was able to reduce the peak flow of the Feather River by nearly 40 percent, averting massive amounts of damage to the area."

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oroville_Dam

                Lets hope the Main Spillway holds out, it will be a massive repair project, and take a good amount of time/money to get back in order.

                • AirSepTech AirSepTech

                  The "Christmas Flood", there are a few similarities, the cold, snow, rain, has been the problem here in Idaho. The water just runs off, no time to soak in.

                  When I was a kid, we went to help family/neighbors in Oregon, along the Rouge River.
                  It was a mess, but as a kid, you just seem to have fun being a part of anything. Brings back quite a lot of memories.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_flood_of_1964

                • HoTaters HoTaters

                  AirSep, Sam, what do you think may happen? Am very, very uncomfortable with the lack of information coming in right now.

                  All I see is a bunch of guys backslapping one another and saying what a great job they have done putting the big band aid on this.

                  The workers and construction crews deserve praise for their work. They are the real heroes. They are trying to stave off inestimable loss of property, cropland, infrastructure. Not to mention lives. Hard to guesstimate how many would die, be injured.

                  Some 22 million people might have their source of water destroyed.

                  • CodeShutdown CodeShutdown

                    my 1/2 cents; the spillways are on the natural mountain/rock area. The main spillway could erode to a huge extent on not be a danger for flooding. The erosion at the base of the aux spillway is being concreted over. They will work hard to make sure the weir foundation does not erode away, and have already sacrificed the main spillway. There is no danger to the main dam. So, for what its worth, I wouldnt worry until a new development indicates a new dire scenario…

                    • HoTaters HoTaters

                      Code, Cahill stated there is more rock underlying the emergency spillway. So maybe less likely to erode catastrophically and cause total dam failure.

                      The areas of weakness & erosion are areas of concern.

                      Some of the calculations of inflow indicate another overtopping is likely. IMO Louis Parra's information is probably the most reliable I've seen so far.

                      The best info. available is just guesstimates based on good calc models, so far.

                      Difficult to say if the guesstimates are accurate or not until we actually get into Sunday or Monday of next week.

                    • AirSepTech AirSepTech

                      I think CS is right for the most part. They need to keep the Aux Spill high and dry.

                      The forecasts/anticipation is key, and the problem from the beginning. Not just for Oroville, the whole system is stressed.

                      They are walking a tightrope, to keep the dams safe, And full for the politicos, AND not flood the Delta. If it becomes a 100, 200, 500, 2000 year event, there is simply an engineering limit.

                      For you, I would say the levies are key, yes Oroville plays a big part in a 'flash' situation, but it is not the only dam, and trying to gage which ones are at the root of expanding stress to the Delta area,,,I am not at that paygrade.

                      The levies/canals first concern.

                      Oroville, then the other dam release flows
                      need to follow/judge with the canal/levies

                      Have your 'bugout' gear, and crazy as I am, I would have my flotation vest handy.

                      Put up with it all to the point of insanity, then just f-ing leave. Don't let it drive you over the edge of phys/mental health. You can always go back.

                      Use your intuition if it works good for you. The old 'if I wait, it may be to late',,,time to go. Mine works good, saved me a few times.

                      Good luck with all this, be very safe.

                  • Sam Sam

                    HoTaters; Here are my thoughts as to how I would proceed.
                    1. lets assume the data being given out is accurate and real time.

                    2. monitor the lake level. monitor the spillway. anytime the
                    main spillway is cut back or closed is of concern. find out
                    what is going on. make decisions based on erosion.
                    If the main spill way is ever shut down and no good reason
                    is given be very alarmed!. The dam is in danger
                    without that spillway working. If the damage to main spillway
                    extends upward to the gates I would get out ASAP.

                    3. if lake levels are rising faster than spillway can handle it
                    and it looks like the emergency spillway may be used
                    I would leave the area ASAP. I would not trust the erosion
                    fix to hold or that hillside to be stable.

                    4. I would have my bags ready to go and car gassed up.

                    5. I would if I could rent a storage locker in an area not prone
                    to flood , rent a U haul truck and move some stuff now. Too many
                    unknowns lie ahead.

                    6. I would prepare as much as possible and have a place to go
                    ahead of time. Map out the route and plan for traffic jams.
                    best to be pro-active and move ahead of time. easier said than
                    done.

                    7. All this is not easy and my heart goes out to all of you in
                    this situation. Have to stay on the edge of the fear but not
                    be paralyzed from it. Your life is more important than staying
                    in place with hope.

                    • HoTaters HoTaters

                      Sam, am in agreement with everything you said. We are basically planning to do everything you mentioned. Except we may not be able to do more than packing our vehicles. We're running a business and can't pack things into a storage locker.

                      RE: emergency evacuation routes, we're looking at that now. We'd probably have to go to the west. This area could become an island. So we'd need to get out before flood waters got that high.

                      If the things you mention occur, and/or flooding begins around here, we'll like leave right away.

                      The key is to get ready now, while there is time to plan.

                      From here, will check on emergency exit routes.

                    • HoTaters HoTaters

                      We're in a 1,000 year flood plain. Just checked, and we're outside the 500 year flood plain.

                      Will check that next. Check your location by launching FEMA map info. if needed or curious.

                      FEMA flood maps:

                      https://msc.fema.gov/portal/

                      It takes a little while to figure out how to view and zoom in on your area. From what I can see here, data is given for 500 year flooding events.

                    • HoTaters HoTaters

                      Big question, would a dam failure put us outside a 500 year flood event? DWR officials think not. They stated in a worst case scenario water would disperse in a wide area to the north.

                      But are they taking into account a potential catastrophic dam failure, or failure of the emergency spillway only?

                      Bet there is some serious number crunching on the part of those engineers. The continuing saga of "CYA" oops, we botched it somewhere. Better save face.

            • HoTaters HoTaters

              This from news about DWR and Oroville:

              California Department of Water Resources

              "OROVILLE, Calif. – Here's what you need to know about the Oroville Dam Spillway on Thursday, February 16."

              "Thursday morning, Oroville Lake is sitting 32 feet below the emergency spillway height, which sits at 901 feet. Despite weather conditions, crews continue to work around the clock and are making progress with emergency repairs.

              Barges and cranes have been mobilized to remove debris and sediment from the diversion pool. These efforts are designed to restore the normal flow of water into the diversion pool through the Hyatt power plant.

              Water continues to flow through the flood control spillway in an effort to accommodate anticipated inflow from upcoming storms. These storms are forecasted to bring colder temperatures and inflows are anticipated to increase to 45,00 cfs. However, lake levels will continue to decrease due to the amount of outflow."

              Report isn't clear RE: emergency spillway height. Statement refers to Lake level when dam is overtopped & emergency spillway begins to function. AirSepTech said the E.S. top is actually at 700' elevation measuring from dam base level = prob. accurate.

              Also – note they are working to restore function of the power plant, to help pump water out of the dam. They are trying to clear the diversion pool for that purpose.

            • HoTaters HoTaters

              Check this out. Bye-bye, trees.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9rvCLW6nvw

              Dead fish, muddy eddies of water in the reservoir, whatta messa.

              Note: the part of the video showing muddy water emptying into the Feather River was likely taken last Sunday, when the emergency spillway emptied the water overtopping the structure.

              This appears to be a good report, with video of some of the damage, and work crews, from KCRA News in Sacramento.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzzH9SZLfb8

              Sorry but the work done at the emergency spillway looks like a band aid. Not a fix. There are a lot of places on the face of the emergency spillway which look prone to slumping and landslides, based on erosion seen so far.

              And look at the main spillway, 2nd or 3rd part of the video. That was on Feb. 13 or 14.

              See this:

              http://www.kcra.com/article/dwr-decreases-releases-at-damaged-oroville-spillway/8943223

              The picture makes it look as if the main spillway has now eroded almost all the way to the top. Hoping it's just spray in the picture, and doesn't show what is actually there. Would have to see a view from the top to determine the actual extent of erosion as of today, Feb. 16.

              Good photos from KCRA news:

              http://www.kcra.com/article/14-incredible-photos-depict-problems-at-lake-oroville/8775076

              • HoTaters HoTaters

                There is another picture which makes it look like erosion on the main spillway (gulp) has almost reached the top of the dam. Day-yum. Erosion now appears to have reached all the way up the steep face of the main spillway.

                Will it stop or slow down now? It depends upon what has happened below. Doesn't look good so far, but it's difficult to tell.

                Look at the SIZE of the crater (canyon) carved out at the base of the main spillway. My gut read is, this is not good.

                KCRA weather report, re: severe weather alerts (map):

                http://www.kcra.com/alerts

                Flash flood warning in effect for the Delta area, east and west of where the Yolo Bypass empties into the Delta. This is a GOOD map. Lodi and Stockton also under flood warning.

                Scrol down to post from Lisa Tudor here, shows inflows and outflows from the Oroville Reservoir. Would like to know where she got her data.

                http://live.chicoer.com/Event/Oroville_Dam_Spillway_Live_Updates?Page=17

                Good discussion on Twitter re: spillway erosion in bedrock. I see this IS a big concern for people in the area & elsewhere. Scroll down to see overview. Cahill stated the bedrock there is fractured & fragmented in as it was on the surface before being buried, so was subject to fracturing. See comment by Dawn Summer and abstract from a study.

                https://twitter.com/hashtag/OrovilleSpillway?src=hash

                • HoTaters HoTaters

                  Statistic of importance of Lake Oroville as a water source in California:

                  "Lake Oroville contains about 3.2 million acre feet of water, making it the second-largest reservoir in California. It provides water for more than 22 million people and 700,000 acres of farmland."

                  https://www.wired.com/2017/02/oroville-big-deal-look-places-need-water

                  Published at Wired Magazine.

                  One newscaster is predicting 10 INCHES of rain forecasted for Oroville and the Feather River basin between Sunday and Monday.

                  http://ktla.com/2017/02/16/10-inches-of-rain-headed-for-oroville-dam-area-revised-storm-forecast-warns/

                  If this happens, the system may be overwhelmed. Unless water doesn't overtop the dam. Let's hope the water level has been drawn down far enough before next Sunday.

                  From KTLA 5 News:

                  "Light to moderate rain began falling across Northern California early Thursday and will likely continue for several days, according to the National Weather Service.

                  However, the situation will change substantially Sunday when a larger storm arrives at Oroville and the Feather River basin.

                  'It looks like it’s going to be a pretty good rainmaker,' said NWS meteorologist Mike Smith. 'You’re looking at 10 inches from Sunday night to Monday night.' ”

                  • HoTaters HoTaters

                    Trying to get a URL for newer pictures of the main spillway.

                    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4kJgpjUkAAGmLn.jpg

                    Let's see if that works.

                    • HoTaters HoTaters

                      If that canyon continues to advance up the face of the spillway, it will take out the left corner (looking upward) of the main dam.

                    • HoTaters HoTaters

                      If that happens, the whole dam (!) thing is probably toast.

                    • HoTaters HoTaters

                      Another possible scenario is the eroded area could join the eroded area under the weir (right side, closest to main spillway, looking upward). This could cause slump down the channel of the main spillway. Then you would have a v-notch failure.

                      Or worst case of worst case scenarios, if the canyon were big enough, you could have failures on both sides, and then you'd have a really big dam failure.

                      What are the odds of that happening? Can't even begin to guess. Probably unlikely. But sure wish someone knowledgeable were talking about it. Will check and see if Cahill hasd provided any updates.

                    • HoTaters HoTaters

                      Can you see the big v-shaped area which shows erosion on both sides, looking at photo, .jpeg above? That is the area which could slump downward and cause a weir failure. My concern is if that area is reached by erosion of the main spillway, it could cause a v-notch (catastrophic) failure.

                  • HoTaters HoTaters

                    Pretty large void, inverted "v" shape created by erosion up the face of the main spillway. Can anyone else here envision a total dam failure from this? My mind is saying it's a huge freakin' void working its way up the face of the dam.

                    And no, it's not the main dam, but it's still part of the dam structure. When you look at the size of the eroded area, it isn't too hard to envision a failure and massive landslide happening there. Sure hope not.

                    • Sam Sam

                      This damn structure is not safe as you have pointed out.
                      There are too many unknowns and the time line extends
                      all the way into the late Spring for the spillway to be
                      functional to drain the reservoir from the inflows.
                      Erosion has to be monitored daily…….

                      The photos have to keep coming in.

                      Days ago I stared at that hillside from a panoramic photo
                      and came to the same speculative scenarios that you are
                      visualizing. I wish I could be bedrock optimistic.

                    • Sam Sam

                      http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Oroville-Dam-inspectors-ignored-integrity-of-10932921.php

                      Feb 14th. "Oroville Dam inspectors ignored integrity of
                      the hillside that eroded"

                      Whether this dam holds depends on the stability of
                      this hillside which is under great duress now.

                    • HoTaters HoTaters

                      The problem as I see it is what underlies the areas we CANNOT see? Just as the main spillway had a void under it. It was not inspected with cameras, so the existing damage was missed.

                      A lot of things can go wrong which are hidden. Drainage is a huge issue. Destabilization of the slopes, which is often hidden, is a huge potential issue.

                      Have watched whole mountainsides go. The signs were there in aerial photos. Not saying this is imminent, but some of the signs of impending slope failure are there.

                      My 1/4 cent's worth.

                  • HoTaters HoTaters

                    A post by Louis Parra on possible inflow to Oroville Dam with next storm system. Great discussion and evaluation of inputs, what the variables are, etc. Parra is Director of Water Resources at REC Consulting. (Longest run-on sentence I've ever seen, LOL.)

                    "Don, you are correct, and I think hydrologists are concerned. However, a precise determination is not that easy. The problem with a quick assessment is that the result depends on many variables: how much of the rain falls (3-8" is a relatively wide range that gives you 0.6 to 1.5 million of acre-ft over the entire watershed, in terms of rainfall amount for a 3,607 sq-mile watershed), how quick, how much percolates and ponds and how much becomes runoff, how the rain is distributed in the watershed (in space, time, and form (snow or water)), does the rainfall moves existing snow already deposited in the mountains or does it increase the snow depth (it probably does both), how much snow it moves, how quick is the rain (how much does the storms last, apparently more than 3 days of rain are on the way), how intense the rain is at the worse part of the storm(s).

                    An average calculation will be as follows: Assume an average 5 inches of water with a maximum intensity of about 0.5 in/hr over the entire 2.308 million acres of the watershed (average value in such a large area), with a C factor of 0.6 (typical of highly saturated soils, meaning 60% of the water becomes available runoff)."

                    • HoTaters HoTaters

                      More from Louis Parra:

                      "Then the peak flow is 2,308,000 x 0.5 x 0.6 = 62,000 cfs in addition the 30,000 cfs melting right now, so a peak flow entering the reservoir of about 100,000 cfs is expected (I believe the peak is going to be less than the observed 190,000 cfs last week because the forecast calls for less rain than lass week, but other factors such as snow impact could change the equation; besides, precipitation and intensity forecast is not an exact science).

                      The quick and not very precise peak calculated implies that the 100,000 cfs release will have to last for a week or so to avoid the overtopping again, and we don't know what this will do to the crippled spillway.

                      We can also do the math in terms of volume of water and not peak flow: we will have 0.3 to 1 million acre-ft coming to the reservoir in addition to what it is coming right now (less than the rainfall volume). The reservoir can handle the former amount but nor the later."

                      So if only 0.1 million acre feet is out of the reservoir, say, 0.25 million acre feet, that leaves approximately 0.75 million acre feet surplus. Which has to go somewhere. Down the main or emergency spillway, and out though the power plant, as long as the discharge pool remains free of debris. Good luck with that, guys.

                    • HoTaters HoTaters

                      More from Parra, and information on his credentials. This guy knows what he's talking about.

                      "Scott, I really like your article and your honest attitude since the beginning. I first came across to it on Friday, and I have been paying close attention to the situation. I am a Hydrology-hydraulic consultant, and a part time professor at SDSU in Applied Hydrology, Applied Hydraulics and Advanced Topics in Water Resources.

                      I knew that once the spillway failed, honest information based on proper risk assessment will disappear and we would be at the mercy of carefully crafted assessments many times far removed from reality. In regards to the emergency spillway, I would like to add something that I don't think was noticed by most: I saw the road between the emergency spillway and the ravine as another point of potential problem/failure….

                      I am not a Geotechnical Engineer but I suspect that this issue influenced in the upstream migration of erosion towards the toe of the emergency spillway (with proper information I can calculate the increase in peak flow from this situation; probably the peak flow increased more than 3 times the value that otherwise was released by the emergency spillway for few second-minutes). The road should have been destroyed with machinery/explosives if the decision of using the emergency spillway was the one they wanted to use, to avoid this additional problem …."

                      And there is more.

                    • HoTaters HoTaters

                      Parra (cont.)

                      "(the road was going to be destroyed anyway, as a matter of fact it was).

                      At the end, they have now 2 potential points of failure (emergency spillway and normal one) instead of one, and they are discharging 100,000 cfs in the main spillway anyway, issue that they tried to avoid but could have done on Friday to eliminate the over-topping of the emergency spillway. I have been in situations where expert opinion is sought-after, but at the end of the day, decision takers prefer to commit to political solutions (irregardless of the consequences or the opinion of the experts) instead of leaving the decision to the most qualified personnel and clearly explain why such decision was taken. Sorry for the long comment, and keep up the excellent job."

                      So we may have a political decision made in the end. Lovely.

                      Cahill re: spillways:

                      "….We have two spillways. Both are seriously broken. Both are an evolving failure mode. The rains are coming again and the repair will take a long time. Serious and probably not short-term at least lets hope that it is not short term."

                      Did you see that, re: spillways:

                      "…both are in evolving failure mode."

                      Repeat, this is not a drill.

                    • HoTaters HoTaters

                      From posts at Cahill's linked in page, friends of people working on the dam repair construction crews are saying the situation is more serious than is being reported.

                      A post there also says at least one retired engineer who worked on the dam is telling her to tell friends and family to leave the area. BTW, she refers to a LEVEE system, not a LEVY system (numerous typos in her post).

                      Not re-posting the person's name, but here is what she says:

                      "….My brother worked for DWR during the construction of this dam. He is an engineer and was on site the first 3 years of construction. Now at 79 and knowing that I have friends in the area he told me a week ago to tell them to get out ….

                      …what people weren't and still are not talking about is further downstream. The levy system protecting the lower Sacramento Valley was never meant to take the amount of water that will come with the collapse of the dam…. Because of the levy system and historically before the levy system Sacramento itself has been underwater. In fact at one point in time they added 15 feet of soil in the original portion of downtown Sacramento because the buildings were wiped out in a flood. The talking heads in the state system evacuated the hatchery days ago in Oroville. They also evacuated the jail in Oroville before notifying the public to evacuate. Some serious prayers are in order."

                    • hbjon hbjon

                      I can't remember ever seeing so much snow pack above 7000 feet on Donner Summit. I felt like I was driving down a bobsled chute. 1 inch of rain at 40 deg. F. melts how many inches of snow pack?

                    • Sam Sam

                      HoTaters; Keep the information flowing.
                      louis Parra has answered a lot of my questions
                      about modeling with actual data and methods
                      of calculation. Your latest posts confirm my
                      worst fears for this damn and the catastrophe
                      it may bring to the entire Northern Ca. levee
                      and water control system. The flood potential
                      without the damn break is serious enough now.
                      Thanks again for your work sourcing all this.

                    • HoTaters HoTaters

                      The comment about the levee system is the interpretation of the person posting, not the retired engineer.

                      Interview with Scott Cahill on February 13, 2017.

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl7Sm15unPQ

                    • HoTaters HoTaters

                      Adapt2030 video on February 16, 2017. Cannot vouch for the veracity of information in this video.

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgBW09wd5so

                      The title of the video:

                      "Rainfall Projections Will Overtop Emergency Spillway by 13 Feet at Oroville Dam"

                      Adapt 2030 states the grand solar minimum is taking us into a 400 year weather cycle. With perhaps (my interpretation) 500 year flooding events.

                      Do your own calcs. Adapt2030 does some interesting analysis of the overall appearance of the area. And he's using some good resources for his information.

                      Since there is so much water headed this way, the areas downstream in the Central Valley may have significant issues. Shasta and other N. California reservoirs are already nearly full. This is dicey.

                      He does have good points re: flooding and potential damage to infrastructure. There are huge oil refineries just west of the Delta, where the water empties into the greater SF Bay.

                    • HoTaters HoTaters

                      Sam, we have a vested interest in all of this. We live near Yolo Bypass, and own a home and small business here.

                      But glad there has been some usefulness to others in all of this.

                      Think it's possible we may lose everyting before the summer. So we're trying to plan around that.

                      We wouldn't be the first refugees ever. Kinda sad, because we've worked our entire lives to just be moderately comfortable. Expecting some comment from the peanut gallery now about being one of the sheeple and human livestock. It is what it is.

                      Ouch.

                    • HoTaters HoTaters

                      To hbjon, precip for at least the Northern Sierra Nevada range was at 216% of normal last week.

                      Think I once heard water experts state when I lived in the Sierras that 1 inch of rain melts 12 to 16 inches of snowpack.

                    • AirSepTech AirSepTech

                      I think Parra is right on the money here.
                      They need to keep the Aux Spillway high and dry, like the pic/link.

                      The thing has some 'creepy' geometry going.
                      I'm not a damn dam engineer.
                      But the current damage/the design, etc.
                      Creeps me out. It goes the wrong way for my liking. 🙁

                      Zoom it in
                      https://postimg.org/image/g9g0xn4pf/

                    • HoTaters HoTaters

                      AirSep, now see what you're saying re: creepy geometry. Look at the "V" shape at the head of the main & emergency spillways.

                      It appears the entire area at the red arrow in pic you posted, AirSep, was already eroded BEFORE this event began. It looks like a natural runoff area. Trace the contours down from the "V" shape there, & you can see it looks like water travels toward the Spillway. You can look between the line of trees, vegetation there & see what looks like the likely path of water there. W/O a contour map of the hillside it's hard to tell. Could be wrong. Maybe this formed after dam build?

                      Given the "v" shaped notch there, it already looks like an area of potential failure.

                      Put the two pics side by side (yours & the one I posted), & you might get an idea of how this thing (esp. the emergency spillway) could fail.

                      Check out the huge mass of earth lying between the channel created on far left side of parking lot (looking up, pic I posted), & far right side nearer main spillway.

                      I'd argue if dam overtops & water goes down emergency spillway again, erosion will eventually cutback deeply enough to let the huge v-shaped chunk of earth, rock, soil slump down the 23 steep degree slope.

                      Then you could potentially have a large v-notch failure.

                      Another creepy thing re: geometry is shape of toe into the lake 1.) between the dam & main spillway and 2.)left side of emergency spillway, near parking lot. Reading your comments now.

                    • HoTaters HoTaters

                      Shape of toe near spillway looks like it would allow water under tremendous force to pound the emergency spillway if a v-notch failure began. The forces acting on that area would be far greater than a breach elsewhere along the face of the emergency spillway (if there were one). Don't like how they designed this. What were they thinking?

                      Now that I'm having a look at it, I don't like it either.

                    • AirSepTech AirSepTech

                      The 'notch' is a 'by design' feature. I personally don't see how they ever thought it could flow much 'without catastrophic damage'.
                      To their credit, they said it would do damage.

                      And they say it can do 300,000cf/s
                      No. no no no no no. No!
                      That is 2,250,000 gallons,,wait,,a second
                      18,000,000 pounds a second weight shift

                      On that spot! 😆

                      https://postimg.org/image/72xqaczgz/#

          • HoTaters HoTaters

            Hi Sam, my spouse found the California Data Exchange Center information. Really prefer to get info. from sources like that. We have been scouring the Internet for credible sources of information. Not all information out there is factual or credible.

            It reminds me of reading third hand accounts of buckyballs being everywhere vs. the scientific studies by UC Davis and their application by DOE, which created them in their labs. Some people were making outlandish comments such as: Fukushima was destroyed on purpose, and the buckyballs are weaponized radiation. Oh, pull-leez.

            DOE found it is likely (highly probable?) the buckyballs have in fact been created at Fukushima, where sea water was dumped on the reactors. Once that was known, it changed our understanding dramatically.

            The news is rife with mis-information. Some of the citizen reports on Oroville are just atrocious. People who don't have the ability to understand what they are hearing, reading, studying, make statements which don't reflect factual information. They don't even know that they don't know what's really going on. They speak with an air of certainty. Then some other people rely on that information. It can and does sometimes turn in to fear-mongering, or "fear porn" as some here have called it.

            Most of the news reports have been pretty accurate. Once in awhile someone makes a mis-statement. Since lives may be at stake, they would do well to be accurate.

  • Entombment is NOT possible at Fukuishima!!!!

    I posed this one on topic but though I'd place in off topic too so we can discuss this more freely.

    This is a huge point as to the problems we face with these reactors…

    …and this only addresses the salt problems if you tried to sealed them (not that anyone can at this time anyway)…

    Let's all think about these things, someone here may come up with the idea that literally saves the world!!!

    Although this is a VERY simple explanation, I think it demonstrated the point of trying to seal the corium and the ultimate consequences of doing so…

    https://youtu.be/PDRWQUUUCF0?t=43s

    …so not sealing Fukushina is not a conspiracy, or ineptitude or lack of money or caring (imagine being there and having to look for a real solution to save your children and grandparents), it's the actual situation that prevents doing it.

  • hbjon hbjon

    Can someone please speculate as to why the powerhouse outlet with 12,000 cfs flow is not being utilized for lake drainage? Can water levels be controlled with just the main spillway at the Oroville Dam?

    • CodeShutdown CodeShutdown

      and what about the 35 foot diameter diversion tunnels that were put in place when the built it? Plugged up?

    • NO one is talking about that.

      One story is that it flooded.

      Another story is that brown water was coming out so it got shut down.

      PGE took away the power lines that go to it.

      It cannot work without power.

    • freebywill

      Oroville Update: Lake Shouldn’t Rise Due to Storms, Officials Say https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2017/02/07/engineers-assess-spillway-problem-at-oroville-dam/

      One of the biggest challenges engineers and work crews face is how to clear the Thermalito Diversion Pool immediately below the wrecked spillway of a large volume of concrete debris and sediment that have dammed the waterway and forced closure of the hydroelectric plant at the base of Oroville Dam.

      Muddy water rose and backed up toward the powerhouse as the lower section of the main spillway disintegrated under high flows. To avoid contaminating the power facility, it was shut down early Friday. That had an unfortunate side effect: Outflows through the plant, which can handle a maximum of 12,000 cubic feet per second, were halted. That, in turn, limited the amount of water managers could release from the fast-filling reservoir.

      The Department of Water Resources said in a statement that “sufficient capacity exists within the reservoir to capture projected inflows for at least days, and DWR expects to resume releases from the gated spillway at a rate deemed later today after a thorough inspection is performed.”

      [ they're " officials ", " experts ", " authorities ", asking you to trust them. The same ones that neglected to act before the emergency. The same ones that said there's no danger, ' oh shit, evacuate '. ]

    • HoTaters HoTaters

      See the inflow on back flow from the base of the main spillway.

      Guess that discussion is getting lost in all the posts.

      What FreeByWill or Razzz (?) posted re: debris from the spillway blocking the channel which exits the base of the dam (where power plant is located) is accurate.

      • HoTaters HoTaters

        Sorry, FreeByWill's post re: closure of the power plant ended up just above this one.

      • razzz razzz

        I called it muddy backwater. The debris was damming up the release water all the way back to power plant outlets and that is why they shut the power plant down. Now they are trying to attempt to clear the debris field. Do they dynamite it like beaver dams? When the hydro plant is working, its discharge helps to lower the lake.

        'Oroville Dam update: Spillway releases curbed, even as atmospheric river looms'

        "…Officials had said they would start throttling back the releases to resume pulling debris from the river channel beneath the dam. The debris has backed up the river at a critical point, preventing the state from restarting the dam’s hydroelectric power plant. The plant would be capable of releasing up to 13,000 cfs…"
        http://www.sacbee.com/news/state/california/water-and-drought/article133078564.html

        • razzz razzz

          From what I read, if the weir fails then 30 feet beneath that top portion of the spillway immediately goes with it. 30 feet below the top of the weir is where natural semi-hard bedrock begins. Not the best bedrock but bedrock nonetheless.

          More worrisome if the weir fails will it take the main concrete spillway with it? The main dam could remain standing but both spillways could disappear.

          • Sam Sam

            1. assumption that the bedrock underneath the weir will hold once the weir is breached
            and washed away. How many feet of (fractured ) bedrock will erode away underneath
            and in front of the weir with all that flow coming out?. Is there granite underneath.?
            2. Yes the damn itself might hold but then again you have complete destruction
            in the flood plain with no flood control from the dam except what is now naturally
            held back when the Weir goes.

            Remember what Scott Cahill said…… the government will not tell you all what
            is going on. Somebody out there must know the rock formations in that hillside
            and modeled it out. I cited an article that said no one knows about the integrity
            of that hillside.

            • HoTaters HoTaters

              Yeah, don't believe it. Geologists have been all over geology of the area since the beginning of the 20th Century. Have a soils map and study dating back to 1911. Think a link was posted for that.

              There are huge data sets available.

              Also, the area was an important gold mining area. So you can be sure there were exhaustive geological studies done.

            • razzz razzz

              Remember where the concrete spillway has a divot in it? That exposed rock that was under the portion of the missing concrete ramp is semi-bedrock and it is now exposed.

              Apparently they worried about exposed bedrock not being able to handle the water flow and resulting punishment so closed the gates and let the lake fill up until it overflowed the weir's emergency spillway until they saw dirt erodes faster that a bedrock outcrop so once again opened the gates and let the main but damage spillway handle lowering the lake level instead of eroding away the weir foundation sitting on a dirt hillside.

              Maybe take Google Earth and figure out what elevations are from the top of the weir to exposed rock outcrops just under the damage main concrete spillway. Those rock outcrops seems to be withstanding massive flows of outgoing lake water…so far.

  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    Women’s March organizers plan ‘Day Without A Woman’ strike next month
    2/16/2017

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2017/02/16/womens-march-organizers-plan-day-without-a-woman-strike-next-month/?utm_term=.bb6693d76f31

    Ideology before mission?
    No, strike for me.
    I'll be right here.

  • CodeShutdown CodeShutdown

    The Nomura Research Institute has predicted that nearly half of Japan's jobs could be replaced by robots by the year 2035. Led by researcher Yumi Wakao and Oxford University Professor Michael Osborne, the NRI also predicted that 47% of American jobs could be automated and 35% in the UK by 2035.
    http://bigthink.com/david-ryan-polgar/sayonara-humans-japanese-company-replaces-its-workers-with-ai?utm_source=Big+Think+Weekly+Newsletter+Subscribers&utm_campaign=a51eb79007-WeeklyNewsletter021617&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_6d098f42ff-a51eb79007-397718

  • GOM GOM

    **Nat'l Weather Service Projected Rainfall Map [7 day] California

    https://yubanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Precipitation_7Day.png

    **February 16, 2017 at 8:12 AM NWS Sacramento update: Wet pattern has returned to NorCal. Several systems will move through the area into Tuesday, with the wettest storm expected Monday and Tuesday.

  • freebywill

    Enbridge's Kalamazoo River Oil Spill Settlement Greeted by a Flood of Criticism https://insideclimatenews.org/news/09022017/kalamazoo-river-oli-pipeline-spill-settlement-epa-enbridge-oil-sands

    After considering and rejecting nearly all public suggestions for penalizing Enbridge over the largest ever oil spill into an inland U.S. waterway, federal authorities are asking a judge to approve a settlement negotiated with the Canadian pipeline company.

    The federal agencies made the request after rejecting thousands of public pleas that Enbridge face steeper fines, criminal accountability and the shutdown of two of the company's major pipelines.

    A flood of more than 17,000 comments poured into the Justice Department since the announcement of the consent decree in July. They ranged from measured arguments from environmental, watchdog and tribal organizations to often harsh remarks submitted by individuals.

    [ doesn't matter what The People want, The Money pays the gov't to pave the way for continued profit. ]

  • freebywill

    200k Evacuated, does that constitute a "class"?

    Can suit be brought against " officials " responsible on the grounds of malfeasance ?

    What if 200k people went to small claims and filed against " the officials " personally, on the grounds of breach of contract or fraud.

    http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/breach+of+contract
    breach of contract – n. failing to perform any term of a contract, written or oral, without a legitimate legal excuse. This may include not completing a job, not paying in full or on time, failure to deliver all the goods, substituting inferior or significantly different goods, not providing a bond when required,

    http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/fraud
    Fraud – A false representation of a matter of fact—whether by words or by conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of what should have been disclosed—that deceives and is intended to deceive another so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury.

    What if 200k people wrote their reps/senators demanding an investigation?

    But none of that will happen, everyone will just grumble to each other about how incompetent the gov't is, go back to 'bread and circuses' and pay their taxes.

  • Mack Mack

    This is interesting:

    An 8th Continent discovered?

    "Scientists discover 'Zealandia' – a hidden continent off the coast of Australia"

    Look at how beautiful and unpolluted it is

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/16/scientists-discover-eighth-continent-zealandia/

  • Mack Mack

    Genuine request: Can any 'Newsers recommend any good books to read?

  • HillbillyHoundDog HillbillyHoundDog

    HoTaters, I see the same issues that prompted charges of "monumental" neglect at the ACofE for the Katrina losses.

    It would takes years and millions to secure those spillways… If the water comes over the emergency spillway again- don't wait.

    “The place where you made your stand never mattered. Only that you were there… and still on your feet.” Stephen King

  • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar

    It is hard to predict what will happen when a dam breaks. Longmont had a 500 year flood in 2013 when a dam for a reservoir broke in the mountains.

    There was huge flooding all over north and east and in the plains from other rivers as well because of so much rain and snow melt.

    I'm in a 100 year flood zone, but the water didn't come anywhere near my house.

    Prepare for the worst (we had no warning at all), but hope for the best.

      • HoTaters HoTaters

        Thank you. We are not expexting much time to prep, should there he a need to evacuate.

        • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar

          Oroville Dam is so much bigger, and it will be horrible for some people.

          They expected to find bodies in Lyons, CO, which is to the west and built up around a ravine. My daughter and her friends had lived in Lyons and I've taught there. But it turned out no one drowned there even though it took days to find that out. They had to move the schools for a few months.

          I'm only 1.5 miles from the St Vrain River and it was horrible for the people along the river banks, but I'm higher up and the standing water didn't reach me. If the water had come from a different direction, it could have been much worse for me. But we don't get so much rain or snow in Longmont as every place around us. It was just the water from the dam breaking that caused the flood. People were flooded in Greeley along the rivers, but my granddaughter who was living there wasn't flooded.

  • SadieDog

    Wow, google earth has upped its game. Check out Oroville Dam if you have GE. You can get up CLOSE.

  • Jebus Jebus

    There are a few gems in here…

    Oroville Dam: A look back at massive structure’s construction

    http://www.sfchronicle.com/thetake/article/Oroville-Dam-A-look-back-at-massive-10929915.php#photo-12365668

  • GOM GOM

    Now: Flash Flood Watch
    Central Sacramento Valley, California
    2 hours ago – National Weather Service
    FLASH Flood Watch IN EFFECT FOR THE AUXILIARY SPILLWAY AT OROVILLE DAM IN BUTTE COUNTY CA … Watch will remain in place until the situation changes …

  • GOM GOM

    It's not just Oroville: Record rain is straining California's whole flood control network

    Article/video
    http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-oroville-floods-norcal-20170216-story.html


    Be prepared: Monster storm could be biggest of season for L.A. area

    Article/video – ..just in
    http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-storm-prep-20170216-htmlstory.html

  • GOM GOM

    ENE newsers now need one of these:

    Rainfall calculator (English units)
    How much water falls during a storm?

    Excellent site – includes feet, acres, sq miles..

    https://water.usgs.gov/edu/activity-howmuchrain.html

    So..
    As a cubic foot of pure water weighs about 62.4 pounds, it follows that the weight of a uniform coating of 1 inch of rain over 1 acre of surface would be 226,512 pounds or about 113 short tons.The weight of 1 U.S. gallon of pure water is about 8.345 pounds. Consequently, a rainfall of 1 inch over 1acre of ground would mean 27,143 gallons of water.

    The dam is in trouble.

    http://farmersalmanac.com/blog/2007/12/04/an-inch-of-rain-equals/

  • HoTaters HoTaters

    Link to DWR newsroom:

    http://www.water.ca.gov/recent_news.cfm

    Will be watching this site closely.

  • freebywill

    OBAMA COAL BILL OVERTURNED http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/world/us-intelligence-officials-reportedly-keeping-sensitive-information-from-trump/news-story/d0a28481cb9622d71e197400ac4b7aef

    President Donald Trump has put the brakes on a regulation blocking coal mining debris from being dumped into nearby streams.

    Trump called the regulation a “job-killing rule” before he signed a measure to overturn it. Politicians from coalmining states stood close by, including Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., Sen. Rand Paul, R-Ky., Sen. Joe Manchin, D-W.Va. and Sen. Shelley Moore Capito, R-W.Va.

    Several coal miners and energy company executives also attended the White House signing ceremony.

    Republicans and some Democrats argued that the rule could eliminate thousands of coal-related jobs. They said the rule also ignored dozens of existing federal, state and local regulations.

    The Interior Department said in December when it announced the rule that 10,000km of streams and 20,000ha of forests would be protected.

    [ what the T.Rump admin looks like from down under ]

  • Sam Sam

    http://www.sacbee.com/news/state/california/water-and-drought/article133078564.html
    latest headline from Sacramento Bee tonight.
    "Oroville Dam:'The Threat level-it is much , much, much, lower'

    go read the comments! two stand out.
    1. reported that several workers at the damn site were fired for taking pictures of the main spillway.

    2. Some families of the construction workers have not returned back to their homes.

    Kind of like reading tea leaves for clues as to what is really going on.
    I sure hope these water officials know what they are doing by decreeing the flow to 80,000cfs
    to repair the blockage to the power plant out flow to have 13,000cfs more available next week after
    the storms. They seem to be confident that the lake can absorb Monday and Tuesdays storms
    with the current outflows and somewhat lower levels. One big unknown is how much snow melt
    will occur from the warmer storms on Monday and Tuesday.

    Also mentioned Hy 70 and 99 on the southern end MAY be flooded next week so
    no escape routes on these roads South.

  • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar

    Water Levels At Lake Behind Oroville Dam Keep Dropping
    February 16, 2017

    “…10:16 a.m.
    “California officials say the water level at Lake Oroville is 32 feet below its dam’s damaged emergency spillway….”

    http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2017/02/16/water-levels-at-lake-behind-oroville-dam-keep-dropping/

  • razzz razzz

    ''

    "…During the Nika Revolt, the angry mob began shouting insults at the emperor and began to assault the palace. The palace fell under virtual siege for 5 days and people were fed up with the high taxes and the government like we see today. The mob set fires that began to spread and much of the city now was engulfed in the flames as they have done recently setting fires to various things.

    The local police and military troops would not suppress the mob and then some of the Senators called for the overthrow of the emperor. The troops would not defend the emperor. Fortunately, one legion was stationed outside the capital. They were not composed of local Greeks so they had no problem killing Greeks. They came to the aid of the Emperor, entered the city, and killed all the protesters.

    What is going on is very similar to the Nika Revolt. Asking the military to overthrow Trump is just totally insane. These people have absolutely no concept of what they would unleash. The military will split and we will have troops fighting troops on American soil as we saw in the decline of the Roman Empire. Anyone who thinks they can overthrow Trump and that will end everything, they are out of the mind. This will be just the beginning of the end. History does repeat.Should Independents Boycott Disney for Supporting ABC News that is just Leftist? "
    https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/world-news/civil-unrest/the-continued-uprising-that-will-destroy-the-usa/

  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    Which portion of the military would defend the position of the left?
    It won't happen.
    The MIC.. is currently laughing their conservative arses ..all the way to the bank.

  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    The 'gravy train' led by a French fry.. how palatable.

    • DUDe DUDe

      "..Which portion of the military would defend the position of the left?.."

      The part that diddent get their paycheck for a long time..if there would be such a part in the land of perpetual warfare..

      • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

        Their own 'human condition' would avail them to defend the interests of the left?
        Like the Church.. they will eat while others ..starve.

        • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

          Falling back in the mindlessness of duty ..the military will continue to do the beck and call of the highest bidder.
          At this point.. neither side of the aisle position is worthy of defending..
          But try telling them that..

          New Focus On The Activities Of Left-Wing Hitman David Brock
          Feb 16 2017

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TzI3UTQqQY

          Because neither position is closely aligned with our Constitutional base.

          IT'S ALL WE HAVE, FOLKS.
          Nor flexible enough to draw from what ever wisdom is left in politics.

        • DUDe DUDe

          Correct Heart..and the military spending is still a long way from being 100% of the total budget so..

          How Kim Jong Il Starved North Korea

          "..Without enough food to go around, the North Korean regime had turned to triage. Pyongyang and the military had to eat, so the government cut rations for farmers instead, slashing the portion of their harvest they could keep to feed their own families.."

          https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/12/how-kim-jong-il-starved-north-korea/250244/

          • DUDe DUDe

            That was in response to your 11:26 post

          • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

            Hi,DUDe.
            They'll eat first and best.

            • DUDe DUDe

              Good day to you Heart Yes..first and best..and i doubt you can place bets on the wisdom or conscience of the average single building block of the amurican army..let alone to combine to critical mass and save the population from the hijacked by zionist warprofiteers political system..considering its place in the (war) history of this planet..

              • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

                I know.
                I was commenting of the musings in razz's post.
                The writer of the article ..rather naïve.

                • DUDe DUDe

                  At this point..its difficult to see a real possibility for a improvement in the way the manmade pendulum swings ..everytime worse on the dying planet..without possible having a "naivity attack"..

                  • DUDe DUDe

                    But Heart , don't let me , or the zionist's agenda and the criminal execution of it , bring you down..there is nothing wrong in refusing to give in and let all hope be killed inside..in fact , its the only right thing to do..hope can always be attacked by pessimist's that claim to be realist..as a form of naivity..but historic analyses of human catastrophy , concentration camps for example, has clearly showed that , in general, survivors are usually those that did not gave up..

                    And as long as there is life , and in that life there is a part of humanity that keeps spiritual growing despite everything..there is hope..and that is just one example..

                    Is the flu gone ?..:)

                    The Science of Connection

                    "..A New Conception

                    The systems view of life is a new understanding about life on earth that is emerging at the forefront of contemporary science. The universe is no longer seen as a machine composed of elementary building blocks. It is a conception of life based on systemic thinking and some of the new concepts and mathematical techniques of complexity theory.

                    • DUDe DUDe

                      It allows us for the first time to integrate the biological, cognitive, and social dimensions of life. We have discovered that the material world is a network of inseparable patterns of relationships; that the planet as a whole is a living, self-regulating system.

                      The view of the human body as a machine and of the mind as a separate entity is being replaced by one that sees not only the brain, but also the immune system, the bodily tissues, and even each cell as a living, cognitive system.
                      The systems view of lifeThe systems view of life integrates the biological, cognitive, and social aspects.
                      The Systems View

                      Evolution is no longer seen as a competitive struggle for existence, but rather as a cooperative dance in which creativity and the constant emergence of novelty are the driving forces. And with the new emphasis on complexity, networks, and patterns of organisation, a new science of qualities is slowly emerging.

                      I call this new science “the systems view of life” because it involves a new kind of thinking – thinking in terms of relationships, patterns and context.."

                      http://upliftconnect.com/science-of-connection/

                    • DUDe DUDe

                      "..These systemic problems require corresponding systemic solutions – solutions that do not solve any problem in isolation, but deal with it within the context of other related problems. Systemic solutions, therefore, tend to solve several problems simultaneously, whereas systemic problems have harmful consequences in several different areas.."

                    • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                      Nice..

          • HillbillyHoundDog HillbillyHoundDog

            http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2017/02/17/China-restricts-Kim-Jong-Nam-assassination-coverage/6621487341109/

            …Kim's slaying presents a challenge for Chinese President Xi Jinping, because the once-favored son of former leader Kim Jong Il was living under Chinese protection, The Financial Times reported.

            China had also been making some effort to renew deteriorating ties around the Lunar New Year, when diplomatic officials from both sides held receptions and pledged friendship.

            North Korea's missile test on Sunday drew condemnations from Beijing, but Kim Jong Nam's death was a far worse blow, experts say.

            Paul Haenle, a former adviser to U.S. Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama, said, "Kim Jong Nam's assassination is much more of a blow than the missile test…For China, Kim Jong Nam carried the credibility of the Kim family lineage and was also supportive of Chinese-style economic reform."

            China has said it is monitoring developments following what has been described as a fatal poisoning of the older Kim at a Kuala Lumpur airport.

        • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

          No tax increase? Isn't any forced fee.. a tax?

          http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-campaign-1-trillion-infrastructure-plan-with-no-tax-hike-2016-10
          Additionally, all projects built under the plan would be required to generate cash flow, like toll roads or airports that produce tax revenue instead of free parks or highways without tolls. The equity investment partners would also take the revenue, essentially privatizing much of the new infrastructure and making riskier investments more palatable.

          Someone is smoking crack again..make every project a green power plant and fee less, tax less, use your brains once in awhile.

  • Uh, oh, when Fox News calls out the President, it is time to fold up the tent and go home to sulk in the T Tower.

    FOX NEWS’ SHEP SMITH TO TRUMP: YOU OWE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ANSWERS
    https://agrdailynews.com/2017/02/17/21102/

  • A WINNING president;

    Pro toxic, polluting obsolete fossil fuel; Check
    Pro toxic, polluting, radioactive nuclear fuel; Check
    Pro conspiracy theory that there is no global warming; Check
    Pro lies, deception; Check
    Pro white supremacy, racism, KKK; Check
    Pro Zionism; Check

    With all of this 'winning', the whole world is getting tired already…

    The Many Ways President Trump Is Really Losing, Humpty Dumpty Had A Great Fall, Off Of A Very Great Mexican Wall, Which Also Kept Out All Of The Muslims, Blacks, Indians And Mexicans
    http://www.agreenroadjournal.com/2017/02/the-many-ways-president-trump-is-losing.html

  • DUDe DUDe

    Trump wants Zionist Mercenary Kapo to Control All US Security and Intel Functions

    By Ian Greenhalgh on February 16, 2017

    Mercenary backer of ISIS and al Qaeda to oversee US security, cut out CIA and Congress

    http://www.veteranstoday.com/2017/02/16/breaking-exclusive-trump-wants-zionist-mercenary-kapo-to-control-all-us-security-and-intel-functions/

  • How Many Insane Things Can Trump Say In One Press Conference?
    https://youtu.be/8UNFo5lKbW4

    • Down The River Down The River

      I’m really tired of the media bashing Trump. I don’t like the guy but we haven’t had a good guy as president since . . . . Ever

      With ALL the media bashing Trump 24/7, I figure he must be doing something right.

      • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

        Thinking that is about to change?

      • DUDe DUDe

        Sorry DTR , but i feel more sympathy for the natives then ever..what broken treatie is going to be honored and restored again..?

        Obscene Standing Rock Media Blackout: US Militarized Police Butchery. Shooting Genitalia. Threatening to Rape Oil Protesters

        http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2017/02/obscene-media-blackout-standing-rock-militarized-police-butchery-shooting-genitalia-threatening-to-rape-oil-protesters-3474763.html

        • Down The River Down The River

          Yeah, DUDe, it’s pretty sick what’s going on back there. It’s been pretty sick what’s been happening to the natives of the Americas for the last 500 years.

          I just don’t think the situation would be any better/different if Hillary or one of the other contestants were in charge at this time.

        • CodeShutdown CodeShutdown

          If you look at the faces of the police…they enjoy inflicting the abuse, exercising power and control. The peaceful are the losers and the aggressive are the winners. Meanwhile, the public wants all power to be external to themselves. I ask, how much worse would it be with no 'rule of law"? Picture a place like Tuscany Italy
          https://privateitalytoursltd.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/tuscany-hills-view.jpg

          How much better would it be to have a bunch of kill hungry thugs in full on military gear, hoping for a skirmish?

          • DUDe DUDe

            "..If you look at the faces of the police…they enjoy inflicting the abuse,.."

            Yeah Code , from the link i posted..4th pic down..the face of the "cop" second from left..is having an psychopathic orgasme..

          • DUDe DUDe

            "..Tuscany Italy
            https://privateitalytoursltd.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/tuscany-hills-view.jpg .."

            Woow nice Code..life could be good..if religion was used for population control and bankers to "secure , protect and serve (lol) " the belongings of citizens..unfortunately they both served the "shape the planet by warprofiteering" capitalisme/zionist agenda ..that gave us the ratrace in an overpopulated hampsterwheel..weapon race..the nuclear race and in its trail the tjernobiles and fukushima's from now and those to come..

          • Down The River Down The River

            Perhaps the rule of law IS the problem.

            The indigenous americans had no rule of law and they did very well for countless thousands of years.

            • CodeShutdown CodeShutdown

              no civilization should call its president kommandant…commander in chief…. Oberbefehlshaber. The sickness starts with the public, the worst work themselves to the top….like a boil

            • DUDe DUDe

              A society with no laws..? Those cant be humans..:) ! There is always some perpetual balance seeking between individualisme and the whole..from agreements to "laws"..in books or passed on by grandfathers around the campfire..

              Maybe those laws are invisible to us because they where simply respected for the most part..? No need for a militarized uniform waiting around every tree to shoot you in the back..A very livable for all compromise between individual/group/environment that could sustain countless thousands of years..

              Compare that to us planet killing department of the species..nowaday's we have our "laws" written by monopoly-powerblocks openly seeking global dominance/destruction/armageddon..

              • CodeShutdown CodeShutdown

                I never taught my cat a single law, never had a book of cat laws that had to be enforced by red faced fat angry boys with cat pepper spray, sonic cannons and rubber bullets. Never had a high paid guy in the house I called cat commander in chief which I gave all power to willingly. Yet the cat always slept at the foot of the bed, was always pretty respectful of my stuff. Now I expect more from humans than cats. After all, they call themselves superior to all others

                • HoTaters HoTaters

                  Animals have their own social order.

                • DUDe DUDe

                  Humans possible individual behaviour/interest is much wider then that of any other animal on the planet..therefore more overlapping eachother..the more people in the same space/planet..the more agreements needed to keep it peacefull..if the whole system or reason to coëxist is wrong like with the capitalist ratrace/competition ..then it is only a matter of time untill the lawmaking process become a runaway proces of monopolizing power..like everything else before selfdestruction..in a bigger symbiotic system aka the planet that wont make it tru our nuclear cloud that comes behind us..

                  And put more cats together and some hierarchy or agreements would also occur imo..

                  • DUDe DUDe

                    Sry i did not refresh page before posting HT , i agree what you say..

                  • CodeShutdown CodeShutdown

                    DUDe, do you really need a law to keep you from steeling from your friends and brothers and sisters? The laws help keep you from killing or throwing rocks through windows, or walking across the street when there is traffic? The laws help you, specifically, help you to do the right things and live a better life? I dont say we shouldnt have laws. I make this exception for our species because we seem to be particularly nasty

                    • DUDe DUDe

                      I'm just making observations Code , why ask me personally lol..but..to be honest..no good without evil and visa versa and all that..

                      Without laws to protect some adults..some blowback might/'should' have occured..if they would not had killed me first..if there where no laws protecting me lol

                      "..we seem to be particularly nasty.." its in our "potential" bag..and since our uber-rulers choose what potential get stimulated and what buried..and they themselves choose to be rather "nasty"..global warprofiting and such..letting us ratracing against ourselfes and inflation to death..nasty it is we become..from the moment of birth..

                    • DUDe DUDe

                      And the laws written today are mostly to protect themselves from us..useless eaters and terrists

                      A far cry from a balance seeking compromise for sustainability between the individual/community/environment..

            • HoTaters HoTaters

              Tribes in the US and Canada had very strong traditions and codes of behavior. The penalty for violating the code of moral conduct was swift and sure. Perhaps not codified law per se, but these were not anarchistic and un-organized societies. There was a well defined pattern of behavior. People knew and understood their roles within their tribe.

              • HoTaters HoTaters

                Furthermore, tribal codes of behavior are clearly defined throughout tribal groups of people, worldwide. One could argue this has always worked well for smaller groups of people. And it could be argued living in cities and in large groups, I.e., cities has been the bane of mankind. Our societal institutions may have evolved in maladaptive ways to the pressures of larger population groups.

                In tribal society, an individual who threatened the stability of the group was swiftly dealt with. Modes of discipline and ostracism were well understood. Ostracism was in many ways the worst form of discipline, as was banishment from the group. Individuals depended on their tribes for protection, to help provide food and shelter, defense. To be ostracized was often to be abandoned to die, and stripped a person of identity.

                • HoTaters HoTaters

                  The erosion of tribal society in places like South Africa and Liberia, where people left their tribes to work in diamond mines or rubber plantations gives a good illustration of the breakdown of tribal structure and "law."

                  • CodeShutdown CodeShutdown

                    Liberian police use deadly force on protesters

                    http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/pb-111107-liberia-03.photoblog900.jpg

                    Now, do they need MORE laws and MORE police?
                    I dont want those law keepers in MY house

                    • DUDe DUDe

                      For every law written to control the populace by the government..another should be written for the populace to protect itself from abuse of said law..and spelled out to them and how..

                      I alway's shiver when i hear of another dictator or "wouldbe working on it" somewhere trying to increase his powers by introducing new laws..and NO immediate collective uprising from the public as only just response..

                      And i wish the Romanians would demand a referendum or something crisis vote like and joust every single politician that did not fiercely opposed the "corruption is oke if we do it you maggots" "law"

                    • HoTaters HoTaters

                      Am referring back to the era before the 1970's, before the civil war, when the people first began to leave the villages in Liberia.

                      What has happened since the 1980's there is just horrible. Whatta messa.

                      Sigh, I have no answers. It's a thoroughly messed up world.

                      Just seems like in many parts of the world, people did better before they lived in huge cities. And before the Industrial Revolution. Which HAS improved the standard of living and health for millions of people.

                      Not without its cost.

                      I can't get too involved in these arguments. Have read a lot of Margaret Meade, anthropological analysis, cultural anthropology.

                      For every peaceful society there has ever been (like the Hopi people for example), there are probably 10-20 times as many which are warlike, hostile, and cannot govern their own people well.

                      Just don't have any answers and really doubt any will be found in our current world paradigm. Just messed up to the core.

              • CodeShutdown CodeShutdown

                But I dont call tribal humans great. Look at the history of Fiji. Blood spilled at every occasion. By comparison, how many bees kill their own hive members?

                Of course there is a territorial system, a mating hierarchy, a tribal rule. But so what? Mankinds ugly nature sprang from those harsh underpinnings of nature.

                Once there was a farming family in Tuscany. The entire extended family worked the grape vines, constructed the buildings, made the wine and cheese for the feast at the table. The children played. But the mother had been reading a book on the horrors of anarchy. Our family must never decay into anarchy, she warned them. The children heard this and started to play an anarchy game. Laughing and giggling they made fun of the funny idea. Later, they worked the emerald green fields, and their children laughed about needing a kommander to keep the family from decaying into anarchy

                • HoTaters HoTaters

                  We supported the humanitarian effort to save Liberians during the Civil War in the early 2000's. I know more about the problems there than I care to mention here. Barbaric, on par with what we are seeing with ISIS. Maybe worse, in terms of genocide and human rights abuses. Just barbaric. I can't even repeat some of the stuff we were told about how people lived and died there, it's just too terrible. Don't even want to think about it.

        • HoTaters HoTaters

          Pretty disappointed to see Trump has given a nod to DAPL. But not surprised, he is pro-big energy. Takes a pretty hardline traditional Republican stance on that. But wish people would quit looking under rocks for reasons to impeach him. The long arm of a George Soros is apparent in much of this.

          Maybe it's time to step back and ask ourselves who the vested interests are, here? Who is behind this power struggle, and what does it mean? Can we analyze the big picture here?

          It's fairly clear who the groups of people are who are involved in the power struggle. But on a higher level, who are the players, and what are they trying to accomplish?

          • DUDe DUDe

            "..Pretty disappointed to see Trump has given a nod to DAPL.."

            ..and with that..not only DAPL..woe be the natives..and everyone else who thinks about and fight for their water air and soil quality BEFORE they are to sick to see it like degenerated junky's after the point of no return..

            • HoTaters HoTaters

              DUDe, will grant there are a lot of constituencies who need their rights protected.

              The sad part is the native peoples are sovereign nations within the borders of the greater US.

              But they are still treated as if they have no rights whatsoever. And their sovereignty is not respected. They are treated like chattel.

          • irhologram

            Ho…simple. Very simple. Its Globalism vs. Nationalism

            Open borders, and pay for illegals rather than prevent Oroville Dam from messing with your life
            Vs.
            Employing people with adequate wages for a healthy life while they fix infrastructure

            Accepting TPP, so our trade deficits are never balanced, as we bear Mexico's burden under UN rule
            Vs.
            Manufacturing here the products we buy, snd pay ourselves to make them rather than China and Japan.

            Militarization of the police, using soldiers and drones through homeland security under the UN
            Vs.
            Equipment to support local Sheriffs

            Rewriting the constitution with an NDAA and Patriot Act emphasis with UN overview
            Vs.
            Restoring the weight of The Bill of Rights

            I certainly believe pipelines are bad news (if the dam goes, so does a massive pipeline network) yet some have seen a trend of corporate income being used to develop more profitable long-term alternative solar, etc.

            • HoTaters HoTaters

              IRH, yes, agreed on all points.

            • HoTaters HoTaters

              This will probably piss some people off here. But have always felt letting people come to the US illegally was stupid and harmful to all citizens and legal workers & residents. Have watched the ability to be employed diminish to where if you don't speak fluent Spanish, you cannot get a job. That's true in many places in California. It has been a creeping dis-enfranchisement here in my own country. Do I feel alienated? Yes. This should not be happening. Why should illegal residents have more rights than me, than citizens and people here legally.

              The race card seems to get played now or you're called intolerant if you dare say anything.

              And now some morons want to make California a sanctuary state. Seems they are hell-bent on destroying this place. Muy stupido! No seas tonto! Seamos razonables!

              • HoTaters HoTaters

                Love the culture, love the people, but let's be reasonable. There are only so many resources to go around. As a taxpayer, it's objectionable to foot the bill for people who run across the border and expect immediate entitlements.

              • HoTaters HoTaters

                It's not personal.

                • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                  The web created is more complicated than you can imagine.

                  The gates were opened for a reason..the companies were incentivized to leave the country.

                  The companies and corporations were incentivized for a reason too.

                  Your masters are very clever.

                  • DUDe DUDe

                    "..Your masters are very clever.."

                    Thats what centuries if not millenia of focused dynasty "think-tanking" for one single selfish goal will get ya..

                    Unfortunately for them they get their proven WRONG delivered too..the ultra high horse does not bring immunity from stupidity..their punishing karma like every highly specialised, highly isolated "expert" thinking encounters sooner or later..when only his "solution" is allowed to expand in to everything..in an integrated interconnected system..they forgot to understand and incalculate the dynamics of the living Earth..of Life itself..so that got destroyed..now what..ya can't tax or dominate a dead planet..and ya cant eat money..and all the past psychopatic ego-massages/orgasmes of the priveleged despotes lose their meaning when death comes to equilize everything again..and all the pain you caused the universe flows back tru ya in reverse..

                    • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                      When it is all gone..it is/will be all gone.

                      We come in naked with nothing and we leave naked with nothing.

                      All the rest is a very clever illusion created by our masters.

                      Without Mother Earth we have nothing.

                      We have worshipped all the wrong things…by ancient design.

                    • DUDe DUDe

                      "..We have worshipped all the wrong things… by ancient design.…"

                  • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                    Sure it is..can't make this shit up! 🙁

                    Baby with 2 heads who was described as a 'gift from God' dies just hours after being born

                    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4235618/Baby-2-heads-described-gift-God.html#ixzz4Z24LdJbK
                    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

      • GOM GOM

        DTR

        Mass Stockholm Syndrome?

        Stockholm syndrome is a condition that causes hostages [americans] to develop a psychological alliance with their captors [politico's & others] as a survival strategy during captivity [citizenship].

        American"s are psychologically dependent on abuse. Anything other than the 'status quo' makes them uneasy. There is safety with the familiar faces of their abusers..i.e. Hillary. Celebrities are also abusers, as are religious figures, banks, ect..

        The whole system balances itself on the backs of unsuspecting Americans in many forms. Yet, most people believe they are 'free' or that 'being American' makes them special. They are mere wheels in cog. Hence when Trump was put into power to do good, it is seen as evil. You see.

        Well, you can see by the remarks here..

  • freebywill

    Class Sues Plains Pipeline for Illinois Oil Spill http://courthousenews.com/class-sues-plains-pipeline-for-illinois-oil-spill/

    Kevin Nodine et al. sued Plains All American Pipeline on Thursday for the July 10, 2015 pipeline rupture at the Pocahontas Pump Station, which sent more than 4,000 gallons of crude oil into waterways in and around Highland, a city of 9,800. The oil drained into Silver Lake, a 574-acre water body that provides drinking water to Highland and several surrounding villages.

    Plains All American was aware of erosion issues at the pump station eight days before the spill, the complaint states: “Despite having knowledge of the leakage, defendants failed to make immediate repairs on the containment dike at the Pocahontas Pump Station.”

    Plains Pipeline’s issues go back even further, according to the class action. On Aug. 10, 2010, the Department of Justice said the defendants had agreed to pay $41 million to upgrade 10,420 miles of crude oil pipelines in response to 10 oil spills in Texas, Louisiana, Oklahoma and Kansas.

    “The July 2015 Highland oil spill, California oil spill and other oil spills are clear examples of defendants putting profit over safety at the expense of innocent people and wildlife as these spills resulted from the unlawful acts and negligence of Defendants, and their failure to properly maintain and inspect their equipment to prevent these spills,” the complaint states.

  • freebywill

    Colorado Drills Boulder County for Its Oil Moratorium http://courthousenews.com/colorado-drills-boulder-county-for-its-oil-moratorium/

    DENVER (CN) — Colorado has sued Boulder County, saying the state’s last local government with a moratorium on oil and gas drilling must conform to the Colorado Supreme Court ruling banning such local powers.

    Attorney General Cynthia Coffman sued the county and its Board of Commissioners on Valentine’s Day in Boulder County Court to stop them from enforcing the five-year-old moratorium on oil and gas development.

    Boulder County’s temporary ban closely resembles the city of Longmont’s fracking ban, and Fort Collins’ five-year oil and gas moratorium, both of which violated state law, the Colorado Supreme Court ruled in 2016.

    [ There will be no local decision making, we're the gov't and we know what's best for you. signed – The Money ]

  • GOM GOM

    80 FT Debris Blockage in Channel at Thermolito Complex

    … 'large volume of debris that has fallen into the channel below'.

    Rubble from the main release structure, and rock and sediment eroded from the adjacent slope, have filled the 80-foot channel immediately below the spillway chute.

    The Thermalito Complex: The Oroville-Thermalito Complex is a group of reservoirs, structures, and facilities located in and around the city of Oroville in Butte County, California. It is not just a dam.

    The wettest storm in the series of storms that began Thursday is expected to arrive Monday. One precipitation forecast, from NOAA’s California-Nevada River Forecast Center, says that system could drop as much 6 inches of water — either rain or snow — on the higher elevations of the Feather River watershed.

    USGS Rain Calculater:

    Projected rain is 6 inches.

    Lake Oroville is 25 miles sq.

    Total additional RAIN water in Lake would be..2,606,784,000 US gallons or 348476333.3333 CF

    PLUS, inflow from North Feather River Watershed.
    The Upper Feather River Watershed includes all waters tributary to the Feather River from the headwaters in the Sierra Nevada crest downstream to Lake Oroville.

    Urgent: Wet season storm events can produce massive surface water outflow from the Upper Feather River Watershed These peak runoff events are exacerbated by the loss of floodplain function.

    http://www.sacriver

  • GOM GOM

    Monday, December 26, 2016 "wisping vapors of a single table candle" Methane Leaking At Aliso Canyon

    PORTER RANCH, LOS ANGELES (KABC) — SoCalGas inspectors detected methane gas Saturday that seeped out of soil near a gas well that had leaked and was plugged at the Aliso Canyon Gas Storage Facility.

    On Saturday, December 24, 2016, as part of daily patrols and inspections, crews using infra-red camera technology observed intermittent indications of very slight releases of methane from a 2-inch opening at the SS25 wellhead at the Aliso Canyon Storage facility.

    Observations indicate that recent intense rain storms triggered the very slight releases of methane previously trapped in the soil following last year’s leak at the site. Consistent with DOGGR’s expectations, slight releases may still occur at different locations near SS25.

    https://www.socalgas.com/aliso-canyon-community-notification-archive

  • GOM GOM

    'Time to act' Italy calls for mass migrant deportations as half a million refugees arrive

    article/videos/photos

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/749273/Italy-EU-Matteo-Renzi-Police-migrants-Libya-deport-terror

    • GOM GOM

      Lake Oroville is only 25 miles sq compared to other giants.

      Reservoir–Induced Seismicity is not well understood. Dams are built on faults. Theory let's the mining industry off the hook for liability. Quarries are often close by.

      It would seem reasonable that all that sloshing, water levels, ect would do damage. First, we would have to look at the Paleoseismology of the area. That is a huge undertaking.

      I don't buy that the dam caused it's own problems.

  • GOM GOM

    U.S. Nuclear Plant up for Sale at Fraction of Cost

    The buyer gets two unfinished nuclear reactors, transmission lines, office and warehouse buildings, eight miles of roads, a 1,000-space parking lot and more.

    http://www.power-eng.com/articles/2016/09/u-s-nuclear-plant-up-for-sale-at-fraction-of-cost.html

    • razzz razzz

      That was an interesting article. Here's an excerpt…"If you're going to make 1,200 megawatts you need to sell it to somebody, and if there's no need for it you're not going to finish," he said. "And that's really what's happened."

      Was it 'supply and demand' that doomed the nuke project or a business model that nuke plants are to expensive to build and maintain? No worries and no mention of any dangerous of nuclear power generation or safe storage of nuclear wastes.

  • razzz razzz

    Look at these pictures of the emergency spillway erosion and the feeble attempt to patch it up as a 'V' notch was already forming that happens to be nearer the main concrete spillway.

    'AP Exclusive: If California dam failed, people likely stuck'
    http://www.sfgate.com/news/us/article/AP-Exclusive-Warning-escape-route-lack-by-10939833.php#photo-12361935

    • AirSepTech AirSepTech

      They are not telling the exact 'whole truth' here.
      It does not add up. Interesting statements.

      They released 500,000 ac/ft since about 11/12

      1 ac/ft=43560 cu/ft = 21,780,000,000 cu/ft released

      5 days= 432,000 seconds

      21.78bil/432,000= 50,417 cf/sec…on average

      That statement by 'Bill Croyle' of 55k-100k cf/second is dubious.
      He even stutters as he is saying it. 😉

      Your .gov hard at work trying to tell the truth. 😆

      • HillbillyHoundDog HillbillyHoundDog

        Croyle also stated when questioned (twice in one briefing) that he was completely unaware of the issue about the spillway integrity brought up in 2005, therefore could not comment on it. DOH! Ignorance is bliss!

  • razzz razzz

    Not that I wear women's clothes and drink wine but everyday consumers control the economy with buying or not spending on the local level. Any attempts to take down the Trump family empire with mainstream media's backing appears to backfire and affects the bottom line of protesting companies in a bad way.

    'Feminists Boost Sales of Trump Wine in Virginia at Wegmans'
    http://dailyheadlines.net/2017/02/feminists-boost-sales-of-trump-wine-in-virginia-at-wegmans/

    'Suburban women ditch Nordstrom and go on a cash-waving rampage to support Ivanka Trump'
    http://www.businessinsider.com/ivanka-trump-fans-ditch-nordstrom-buy-dillards-2017-2

    'Ivanka Trump’s Brand Shoots To #1 On Amazon'
    http://www.westernjournalism.com/ivanka-trumps-brand-shoots-to-1-on-amazon/

    • freebywill

      The storm being named Lucifer reminds me of a fictional short I read once called " The Rain of the Devils Cloak ".

      A young man not yet 20 wished for fame and fortune. The Devil appeared and offered to grant him his wishes in exchange for his soul. The man thought he could outwit the Devil and asked for immortality but the Devil replied that only he, the possessor of the black cloak, could have immortality. Finally they agree that the debt will be paid in the mans 40th year and the manner of collection is by drowning. So the bargain is sealed.

      The man gets everything he wanted, he commands a great army, cannot be defeated in battle, collects a harem of all the most desirable women, enslaves many people and hoards all the wealth of the lands.

      He is invincible.

      Knowing the Devil will one day return to collect and thinking he can outwit the Devil he moves his army, wealth, and slaves out to the desert. There he builds a great walled city.

      In his 40th year the Devil comes, he is enraged because he cannot drown the man and get his soul. The man wants more, he taunts the Devil until he gets close enough to grab the Devils cloak off his back. It begins to rain. The Devil is fast and grabs the other end of the cloak so the man cannot put it on. It rains harder as they struggle, becoming a once in a thousand year deluge.

      Eventually the walled city fills with water and the man drowns to the laughter of the Devil saying " Fool, you cannot cheat me. "

  • irhologram

    Live stream from Oroville

    Jail being evacuated now.

  • irhologram

    From listening I'm not certain this isn't a recap of last Sunday…(about the jail) but anyway, some parts of the coverage are new.

    • HillbillyHoundDog HillbillyHoundDog

      The inmates were moved to Alameda Coounty jail. Likely been moved back, but they wait until the moving is done to inform the public, for safety reasons…

      • HillbillyHoundDog HillbillyHoundDog

        2/17- Nope, not back yet…

        http://www.krcrtv.com/news/local/butte/bcso-despite-evacuations-deputies-maintained-public-safety/339841246

        …The entire operation, from start to finish, took 13.5 hours. The Butte County Sheriff's Office Jail Command Staff is securing 16 buses and 7 vans to return the inmates to the Butte County Jail. The Butte County Sheriff's Office is receiving assistance from allied agencies, including the Stanislaus County Sheriff’s Office, the San Joaquin County Sheriff’s Office, the Contra Costa County Sheriff’s Office, the Alameda County Sheriff’s Office, and the California Department of Corrections. They anticipate having the inmates back at the Butte County Jail by next week.

  • irhologram

    Nah. Its all old video…just click bait saying its live now. My bad. Please disregard.

  • irhologram

    !!!! Evac Sun. a trial run on worst case? …Why? State believes IMPOSSIBILITY OF EVACUATION! !!!!

    …"Also Friday, the Associated Press reported that in 2011, state officials told FERC that in the event of a collapse of the entire Oroville Dam, local emergency officials “do not believe there is enough time to perform evacuations in the communities immediately downstream” and that emergency responders would likely withdraw to safer ground and prepare for victims.

    "Butte County Sheriff Kory Honea did not dispute that Friday when asked by reporters."
    http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/02/17/oroville-dam-cause-of-emergency-wont-be-known-for-a-long-time-state-says/

    • SadieDog

      Somehow I think everybody immediately downstream knows wtf is going on. Kind of a risky place to live anyway.

      • irhologram

        Sadie, they don't plan to rescue them. Its the official position. From the interviews I've seen on line, I don't think you're right. They DO rely on officialdom to save the .

        Ho Tators, are you listening? Saving you is not a priority. Treating you IF you survive, is.

You must be logged in to post a comment.