FORUM: Off-Topic Discussion Thread (Non-Nuclear Issues) for Feb. 26, 2012 – Jan. 5, 2013

Published: September 3rd, 2012 at 5:28 pm ET
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Published: September 3rd, 2012 at 5:28 pm ET
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9,855 comments to FORUM: Off-Topic Discussion Thread (Non-Nuclear Issues) for Feb. 26, 2012 – Jan. 5, 2013

  • Insight

    "The vast majority of Americans are still fast asleep. They are brainwashed, neurotic, and addicted. The communists wish for them to remain that way until they are no longer necessary, until they no longer pose a threat to their designs. Let the games continue. Let the immorality roll on. There will soon be a time in America when the lights go out. There is swiftly approaching a moment where the brainwashed Americans will have outlived their usefulness, when all their money has been stolen by the communists, their guns have been confiscated, their liberties destroyed. There is a Damocles sword of economic death and destruction hovering over the sleeping citizenry. Beyond these fragile walls, the hordes sharpen their knives and prepare for the assault.
    When the economic crash occurs, the cities will burn with a fervent intensity. When the food runs out, when the electricity stops, when civil society breaks down, understand that this moment has been in the making for a lifetime. When gangs rule the streets, when the tanks roll in, when the communists begin their ascent to power, you must be prepared and knowledgeable of the facts."


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    • CBuck CBuck

      + 100. Scary, but true.


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    • BreadAndButter BreadAndButter

      To confiscate some guns from the brainwashed and neurotic might not be the worst idea, imho.


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      • NoPrevarication NoPrevarication

        Read the Second Amendment to the Bill of Rights. If you support the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I'm an American and I support the right of citizens to keep and bear arms.


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        • Unknown Unknown

          The U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights are not sacred objects to be worshiped, but administrative documents written in the 18th century and are in need of an overhaul to bring them in line with 21st century issues.


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          • NoPrevarication NoPrevarication

            When the people can no longer carry arms, only the government will have arms.

            Government is operating illegally. We are supposed to operate under the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Citizens would not have approved the Constitution without the Bill of Rights. Executive orders are illegal IMHO, or, perhaps you agree with them?


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          • NoPrevarication NoPrevarication

            @unknown

            Maybe not, but at this moment, they are still the law of the land.


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    • omniversling

      Quite possible scenario Insight, but why do you misuse the term Communists?

      A government captured by corporations, whose executive arm uses force and violence of a militarised 'police' force to control the assets (ex-citizens), is better called Fascist. 'Communism' is an obsolete term that was used to describe the extreme 'Left' political position….something beyond socialism. On the other hand NAZIs were 'National Socialists' and that is an obsolete term for fascists.

      Good article here explaining the difference between Communism and Fascism: http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/difference-between-communism-and-fascism/

      Also this article updates the 'definitions' to include today's emergent version, PGF (Pro-Globalisation Fascism).
      http://www.progressiveliving.org/definition_of_defined/definition_of_fascism_defined.htm

      Deeper definition and genisis of the term Fascism: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/Fascism_Wikipedia.html

      Appears to me that the US is going down the road of Fascism, not Communism …China still has the mantle of that, but IMO the longer term plan of PGF is the 'Chinaisation' of the rest of the planet. Those in government who believe that they 'rule the people' rather than 'represent the people' love the China model (no coincidence that the undermining of the US middle class is carried out on the 'offshoring' of manufacturing to China). They'd like everyone on the planet to produce goods for 50c/hour.


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      • omniversling

        Cont:

        ""The State not only is authority which governs and molds individual wills with laws and values of spiritual life, but it is also power which makes its will prevail abroad…. For the Fascist, everything is within the State and… neither individuals nor groups are outside the State…. For Fascism, the State is an absolute, before which individuals or groups are only relative…."" – Mussolini

        Mussolini, in a speech delivered on October 28, 1925, stated the following maxim that encapsulates the fascist philosophy: "Tutto nello Stato, niente al di fuori dello Stato, nulla contro lo Stato." ("Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State".) Therefore, he reasoned, all individuals' business is the state's business, and the state's existence is the sole duty of the individual.

        And just found this very relevant post with excellent references and quotes:
        How Aмеяiкa Is Evolving Into a Fascist State…
        http://www.projectworldawareness.com/2012/09/how-aмеяiкa-is-evolving-into-a-fascist-state/

        Peace


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      • Insight

        omniversling,
        Interesting symantic juggling about a definition of the US while this is being reported today.. MOSCOW — Russia has asserted that Syrian rebels acquired scores of U.S.-origin surface-to-air missiles.Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said the Sunni revolt against President Bashar Assad has acquired more than 50 Stinger shoulder-fired air defense systems. The Kremlin said the Sunni fighters have also acquired Russian-origin SAMs,particularly the SA-7. China in the meantime remains "the most threatening" power in cyberspace and presents the largest challenge to U.S. supply chain integrity, the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission said in a draft of its 2012 report to the U.S. Congress.
        [Gen. Xu Caihou] said during a visit to military units near Taiyuan, in the northern province of Shanxi, “efforts should be made to ensure that the military is capable of resolutely performing its duty to safeguard the country’s national sovereignty, security, and territorial integrity whenever it is needed by the Party and the people.” Panetta: U.S. will back Japan in China conflict Feud heats: China sends ships to disputed islands U.S. drones drop into China-Japan dispute China begins armed patrols of disputed islands.The point I am making is it really does not matter how the US is defined now.Other major players have plotted the downfall of the United States. This is not headline news. The usa is so complacent thinking no one dares to bomb them.


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    • Maggie123

      Hi Insight – Agreed the US (and other nations) are in a heap of trouble. But there is no "the communists" group hard at work dreaming up evil schemes. There may be groups composed of people who feel "entitled to rule" and these may approach sealing their power by assorted economic means. "Communism" is philosophically a "democratic or consensus rule by citizen" concept. I whole heartedly agree it has so far failed to stick to empowering citizens, even though this has often been a part of its early days in many nations. Hierarchical systems fear what full popular rule. We see this throughout both capitalism and non-capitalistic highly organized systems. Hierarchical systems are as old as recorded human history. All this needs to be examined through informed academic sources, IMO.

      High quality academic study is similar to hard science – bends itself to what research reveals, is wide in its study, openly and honestly recognizes/admits to its biases. Such sources exist. We need to avoid taking biased sources as authority that are incomplete in research and that don't admit to personal bias, (IMO).

      Noam Chomsky remains one of the most highly respected academics on matters of human political systems – he 'leans left' based on his blend of compassion and huge wisdom base. Matter of fact many if not most extremely intelligent thinkers 'lean left' with regards to social/political policy for the same reason – compassion + huge wisdom base. :)


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      • Insight

        Hi Maggiei-The concept of communism seems a desirable method of government. Unfortunately Communism rarely lives up to it's professed ideals.
        The track record is that it leads to poverty.
        There are human rights abuses like Secret Police, imprisonment of political dissidents, lack of free speech and a free press etc.
        Perhaps the most important reason to reject communism is almost all Communist regimes have been marked by millions of state sponsored executions. Mass killings occurred under some Communist regimes during the twentieth century with an estimated death toll numbering between 85 and 100 million. The highest death tolls that have been documented in communist states occurred in the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin, in the People's Republic of China under Mao Zedong, and in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge. The estimates of the number of non-combatants killed by these three regimes alone range from a low of 21 million to a high of 70 million. There have also been killings on a smaller scale in North Korea, Vietnam, and some Eastern European and African countries.
        Now if you could ask even one of those murdered people their opinion of communism,you would get a truthful answer to avoid taking biased sources as authority that are incomplete in research.


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        • richard richard

          "There are human rights abuses like Secret Police, imprisonment of political dissidents, lack of free speech and a free press etc." – mmm, sounds like current day usa to me.


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          • Maggie123

            In a recent talk, Dr. Gabor Mate describes a process of realizations he went through beginning in his early years in pre-revolutionary Hungary. As a Jew whose family had been decimated at concentration camps, he believed in Russia's having saved the Jews. (True – Russians exerted tremendous effort, suffered much, to go after Hitler.) Mate believed anti-US communist propaganda.

            Then came the revolution. He believed American political system was perfection. Then he moved to Canada. He realized "Everything both the Russians and the US said about themselves was a pack of lies, and every criticism each leveled against the other was true." (paraphrased). Mate goes on to describe following attachments to other ideologies (Zionism until he visited Palestine; Maoism until he learned more of atrocities that developed in China…)

            "I'm no longer an ideologue… We attach to ideologies and external truths because of basic human needs, and when we do that, we also tend to give up our own critical faculties and can't see the world as clearly."

            (from a talk he gave 5 October 2012 in Berkeley: http://www.kpfa.org/archive/id/84928)


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          • Insight

            Obama has created a vast and rapidly expanding constituency of voters dependent on big government; a vast privileged class of public employees who work for big government; and a government dedicated to destroying capitalism and installing themselves as socialist rulers by overwhelming the system.
            Add it up and you've got the perfect Marxist scheme devised by Barack Obama using the Cloward and Piven Plan.
            Do you know why he never created a budget last term? Why bother, none of the promised reforms, free healthcare or economic growth are going to materialize in his upcoming planned world war.


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            • richard richard

              It would seem much of this system was in place by Bush prior to Obama.

              But yes, as one description goes, it's two heads of the same monster.

              I'm not saying Obama is clean; you could be very right there. I'm just saying that I think it's a combined effort by both the leading parties.

              It's institutionalized and lobbyized (my new word for today) within the corridors and veins of the system. So it may seem.


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              • Insight

                As Heritage's Matthew Spalding explains in his new book, We Still Hold These Truths:

                To this day, so many years after the American Revolution, these principles—proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence and promulgated by the United States Constitution—still define us as a nation and inspire us as a people. They are responsible for a prosperous and just nation unlike any in the world…

                A warning to readers is not necessary, explains Spalding, because the documents themselves are "a warning to tyrants and despots everywhere." To say they are no longer relevant is to undermine the fact that "it is because of these principles, not despite them, that America has achieved its greatness."


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        • Maggie123

          Hi Insight – I'm aware of atrocities under name of communism. My interest is in what Marx identified about the human spirit, and the nature of an expansionist capitalistic system that bent certainly the worker but also the capitalist to "the consumption-based profit machine". (Am oversimplifying but anti-communist rhetoric, especially as it developed in the US, has rejected deeply valid insights of Marx. I'm none too pleased that from childhood through young adulthood my "free thought" society worked so hard to persuade me to believe communism the devil incarnate!

          Cooperation is one principle at the root of communism. So too is grass roots democracy and individual self-realization. Americans (at least, others too but especially Americans) are, I find, especially fond of saying 'communism' when so far as I can understand they mean 'totalitarianism'.

          It often seems to me that American culture's equation of communism/socialism with totalitarianism is perhaps one of capitalist-originated propaganda's greatest achievements!

          Deaths brought about by expansionist capitalism include by slavery (brutal transporting as well treatment of those who survived the journey). Deaths by expansionist causes also include uncountable horrors suffered by peoples attacked (Iraq only recently, drones now).

          IMO, corruption is in humanity's ignorance, not ideology. IMO also, we mislead ourselves from greater truth by acceptance of 'other' as enemy. :)


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          • Insight

            Maggie, as always you are an interesting read.

            The rain it raineth every day
            Upon the just and unjust fella,
            But more upon the just because
            The unjust hath the just's umbrella.


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          • Radio VicFromOregon

            You said it Maggie123 – people have been taught to think that the totalitarian systems they saw were communistic systems. May i add that i think neither Josef Stalin nor Mao Tse Tung had any interest in communism, but, perhaps it was a desirable concept they could brand and sell to the masses who were suffering so greatly from despoiling by industrialized colonialism, internecine wars, and WWI and WWII? The victors of those wars got the spoils and the hardship of life in those times in certain parts of the world are almost unimaginable to us today. But, sadly, instead of creating societies based on communal values, their leaders decided to worry about the emerging superpowers and Captains of Industry and co-opted the movement into building up arms. Mao and Stalin filled in voids created by world wars in the countries that were the most vulnerable, poorest, and unstable, and who, though US allies, got little of the actual spoils of war. The reason America became the superpower was because we had the oil and everyone else was destroyed, including our allies. That Russia got as far as it did was remarkable really.


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      • AGreenRoad AGreenRoad

        Catherine Austin Fitts On A Tapeworm Economy, How The 1% Strangle USA; via A Green Road
        http://agreenroad.blogspot.com/2012/05/catherine-austin-fitts-on-tapeworm.html

        Cancer – The Forbidden Cures; via A Green Road
        http://agreenroad.blogspot.com/2012/05/cancer-forbidden-cures.html


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    • richard richard

      Who are you quoting? (it's in quotation marks)

      Sounds like a 'reds under the bed' script, the scary communist boogie man might get you. ;)

      You need the revised edition, it swaps the word communist for terrorist.


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      • VanneV anne

        Actually this has just been written:

        WHEN THE LIGHTS GO OUT
        Posted by TCA STAFF On August – 23 – 2012
        “The premeditated evil that the FSB committed within Russia is the exact same model of propaganda that was disseminated throughout the U.S. by the Russians after 9/11. It was classic projection, but also a pre-emptive strike designed to neutralize the future criticism that will be leveled towards the Obama administration should they move in the direction anticipated. Even at this late stage in 2012, we hear constant reports of planned false flag attacks being planned by the hardcore communists in the White House, spanning the spectrum from the fringe to the mainstream. Clearly something is occurring in America. Even the formerly “moderate” are realizing that something has gone horribly wrong in their country.

        But the vast majority of Americans are still fast asleep. They are brainwashed, neurotic, and addicted. The communists wish for them to remain that way until they are no longer necessary, until they no longer pose a threat to their designs. Let the games continue. Let the immorality roll on. Continue with the pro-drug propaganda in films, songs, and the intelligentsia.
        There will soon be a time in America when the lights go out. There is swiftly approaching a moment where the brainwashed Americans will have outlived their usefulness, when all their money has been stolen by the communists, their guns have been confiscated, their liberties destroyed….”


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        • VanneV anne

          Here's some more:

          "Contrary to what the clinically psychotic in America believe, U.S. Presidents before Obama have never committed “false flag” attacks against their own nation. The same cannot be said about Russia and the depraved psychotics that rule it with brutal force. The highly respected KGB defector Alexander Litvinenko stated this truth to the world, before he was hunted down and poisoned in Britain.

          "In Blowing Up Russia, Litvinenko stated that the FSB, the current incarnation of the KGB, intentionally destroyed Russian apartment complexes and intentionally murdered their own citizens as a false pretense for waging war against Chechnya and passing anti-civil liberties laws.

          "The premeditated evil that the FSB committed within Russia is the exact same model of propaganda that was disseminated throughout the U.S. by the Russians after 9/11. It was classic projection, but also a pre-emptive strike designed to neutralize the future criticism that will be leveled towards the Obama administration should they move in the direction anticipated. Even at this late stage in 2012, we hear constant reports of planned false flag attacks being planned by the hardcore communists in the White House, spanning the spectrum from the fringe to the mainstream. Clearly something is occurring in America. Even the formerly “moderate” are realizing that something has gone horribly wrong in their country…."
          http://www.thecomingattack.com/


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      • Maggie123

        Richard – re quotation marks – don't know if your question is re my post. I've developed a horrid over-use of quotes, either single or double, to accommodate common phrases or concepts. Looked up protocol a few months back, can't remember what was explained but apparently use of either single or double has slipped from any narrow use moorings since internet. I'm quite annoyed with myself about this! :)

        Oh – if referencing my use – I used double quotes for "democratic or consensus rule by citizen" to *suggest* formal definition even though I didn't take time to look it up or locate an authoritative source. I've studied lots, but don't consider myself an authority and prefer to suggest an "approximation" or paraphrase. (See what I mean! Arggh!) :)


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      • Maggie123

        Richard – re replacing "reds under the bed" with "terrorists". Unfortunately, it looks to me like the two have been combined or are used interchangeably. Am speaking from informal observation, have not tried to document!

        The hall of mirrors in which we seem to live is annoying, sometimes exasperating. Makes me think of a magician's skill that points and says "Look at the danger there!", while performing intended change in plain sight.

        IMO our best authority is our own intelligent awareness, including using that intelligence to hold authority to rigorous criteria. If a selected authority doesn't meet criteria of massive study and solid argument then it can't serve as authority but may be good for some possibly useful insight.

        Even the best authority observed over time reveals personal biases of influence, IMO. For example, even though I deeply admire Chomsky and several others, I sense their humanity, their biases, and am able to take that into account, (or so I like to believe.)

        I do the same re my own thinking, conclusions, biases – usually I know what they are, why I am inclined to cling to them. I try to make myself set them aside if I discern they are likely skewing my conclusions.

        Some conclusions I'm pretty firm on since I've examined them over extended time, and have tried unsuccessfully to test them for fundamental flaws. In the end, I admit to sin of opting for possibility over probability re human potential's promise and future! :)


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  • kalidances

    This is awesome news :)

    America’s First Ever Hindu Congresswoman Will Take the Oath of Office Over the Bhagavad Gita

    http://jezebel.com/5958635/americas-first-ever-hindu-congresswoman-will-take-the-oath-of-office-over-the-bhagavad-gita


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    • DisasterInterpretationDissorder DisasterInterpretationDissorder

      Small but good news , can't hurt . So nothing to lose , only to gain i guess.


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      • kalidances

        The more stable women in government offices the better. Matriarchal societies have always worked better than male ones.


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        • Maggie123

          Hi Kalidances – I've been thinking of matriarchal societies today – my hopeful thoughts prompted by successful election in US of more women in congress, especially the senate, compared to times past.

          Off/on in the last year or so I've tried to re-locate a brief description of women elder role in the Iroquois Confederacy. I've a vague memory of reading this council of women elders had final say on any significant proposals, specifically whether or not to move the village, whether or not to launch a war, and a few other really monumental decisions.

          IMO we could get 'carried away' with a focus on gender (physical) attributes. I lean toward an emphasis of 'feminine principle' and 'masculine principle' with awareness that both are within each individual regardless of gender.

          In a society that honors both, the principles are more likely to be balanced within the individual. Thus either male or female is free to be nurturing as well as "acting on the world". "Sensitive" males are no longer mocked, and "assertive females" are no longer declared "unladylike". Ideally, as would suit the individual personality, people could simply express who they are!

          Read a great book years ago "Androgyny" by June Singer, a Jungian analyst, that 'cemented' this idea for me. The book had nothing to do with sexual preferences, had everything to do with "inherent principle". Read/shared it with many friends of both genders – much good conversation came of it!


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    • crystalwind crystalwind

      I think we have a lot in common. Nice post.


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  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    Opinion pieces from the Guardian and the Telegraph..and Julian Assange

    Obama back at the wheel as US economy heads for a fiscal cliff

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/nov/07/obama-us-economy-fiscal-cliff

    Under Barack Obama the US superpower faces four more years of decline

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/nilegardiner/100188122/under-barack-obama-the-us-superpower-faces-four-more-years-of-decline/

    Assange: Reelected Obama a 'wolf in sheep's clothing'

    http://rt.com/news/wikileaks-assange-obama-wolf-256/


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  • amberlight amberlight

    The only thing I really cared about and actively advocated for was Prop 37. (Move to Amend, Measure F in our county, was a shoo-in. The presidential "election" was a joke from the get-go and the joke is on us!)

    MonSatan thinks it won this round, but we are not letting up. PLEASE, PEOPLE, BOYCOTT ALL COMPANIES THAT FOUGHT AGAINST PROP 37! That includes a number of organic product lines like Silk and Lara Bar that sold out to big food corporations like General Mills. Let them know why you are not buying their organic products.


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    • Maggie123

      Amberlight – Do you know if anyone provides a handy list of such companies? I'm game but not terribly effective as I'm so not a shopper I usually already don't buy from companies that show up on such lists! (Also – have developed a sense of humor about my Kraft boycott practice, which is now decades old and seems to have made little difference!:)

      Kraft, btw for those who don't know, years ago moved into dairy country (Wisconsin, etc) and cut great deals with dairy farms as milk suppliers. They kept it up until they had cornered the milk supply. Small producers couldn't compete. McCains did the same or similar in Canada with potato farmers. Safeway established itself with a program like the one so despised today of WalMart.

      I still boycott Kraft and live in a small community where I have 2 grocers only: Safeway and Walmart! :)


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  • WindorSolarPlease

    Iran Fired On U.S. Drone In International Airspace

    I think they all better sit down and talk about where the international airspace begins and ends.


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  • richard richard

    its begins on the borders and coasts of the usa, and ends at the same place. apparently.


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  • Maggie123

    Valuable insights from VicFromOregon shifted here to off-topic. Vic says the following which, for me at least, is valuable to keep in mind at following truncated link: /astonishing-thyroid-abnormalities-found-in-fukushima-kids-declared-ok-by-govt-officials-…page-1#comment-303061:

    "Obama will likely not see but few of the line items in a proposed budget. That is for the Congressional and White House accountants. As long as people believe that Presidents actually have this level of awareness and detail on any given issue that isn't thought to be a national security threat, they will continue to scratch their heads in frustration as to the solutions put forth by that office. It's called getting the President's attention. How does one do it? It's also referred to as the President failing to focus, if he gets too deeply into the details of too many issues at once. Change is always done on the local level first, by people agitating, then their representatives agitating, then their State agitating, then finally the Feds agitating, and maybe, just maybe then the President agitating. To end nuclear power, the last person we should be concerned with is the President. He's last in line to bring about change by the very nature and restrictions of his position, not first. He can do a few things like go to war that have tremendous impact, but, beyond that, any Executive Orders can be overturned. They must already be popular to be sustained."

    (cont …)


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    • VanneV anne

      We don't even know what is in all the signing statements which are numerous:

      http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL33667.pdf


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      • Maggie123

        Thanks for this Anne!


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        • VanneV anne

          Sorry, I made another comment below. People have complained about the signing statements Pres. Obama makes, but not one to my knowledge has been overturned.

          I believe that he is advised about what to change.


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          • Maggie123

            Thanks, Anne – I'm sure the president likely operates entirely by advisement, which is fully understandable and for me also completely disconcerting!

            Some time back I caught a program on lives of congress people (house and senate) that revealed most are poorly informed much of the time unless it's an issue with which they've had extended experience for months. Many have limited "broad academic" backgrounds – may be strong in business or law but may have little exposure to social sciences, educational research, or (as we readily see) sciences such as climate, nuclear, etc. Furthermore, since they're drawn from "regular culture", they are inclined to view problems/solutions through status-quo memes.

            As usual I have too much to say on this so will cut to chase – as a result they typically lack wider range of possible ways of seeing an issue, lack imagination toward new possible solutions, and are dismissive or hesitant because they don't have time to delve more deeply. It's quite understandable and quite a weakness given their power to effect long term policy! Yikes!!

            I think this weakness in governmental insight fits with Vic's comments. In the end, we, at grass roots, need to gather the info, create briefs, … we need to "teach/inform" first ourselves, then our legislators, it seems to me.


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            • Unknown Unknown

              Perhaps, as you suggest, when a member of congress is unable or unwilling to absorb the knowledge necessary to do their job in such a way that the outcomes of their decisions have the greatest positive effect on society, then the system needs to evolve. It is not unsurprising that a system that was developed in a time when high-tech meant steel pen points replacing quill feathers is in need of upgrading.

              “Tradition becomes our security, and when the mind is secure it is in decay.”
              ― Jiddu Krishnamurti


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              • Radio VicFromOregon

                Unknown, you boiled some incredible insight and thinking into one short paragraph. Keep that one filed somewhere. Someone's going to need to hear it again someday somewhere. Do you think you could submit that to the Editorial page of your local paper or online when an event arises that will make it topical for them? Shouldn't actually have to wait too long. There are a lot of editors out there that would like to print those two elegant sentences.

                And, i love J. Krishnamurti. Thanks for sharing that quote.


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              • Maggie123

                Unknown – "It is not unsurprising that a system that was developed in a time when high-tech meant steel pen points replacing quill feathers is in need of upgrading." So reasonable and obvious a proposition! As Vic says – your full brief piece would be wonderful slipped into wider venue. Thanks.


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      • NoPrevarication NoPrevarication

        @anne

        These used to be included in the White House website, but I suppose too many people were becoming quite familiar with some of the Executive Branch's dictatorial statements. However, I have found a link to these and one should read both the PSD and PPD to know the full extent of these "signing statements" by recent Presidents:

        http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/direct.htm

        I don't see why Congress does not assert itself. I consider the Executive Orders to be a usurpation by the President of powers whose authorities were meant for the Congressional branch and not for the Executive Branch. We appear to be headed toward a dictatorship at a great pace, if indeed we are not already there.


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    • Insight

      Maggie, what the president concentrates his attenion on is his golf swing.
      Also discussing where his next vacation will be and how much fun he will have. Obama "inherited" a lot of problems when he first entered office but he had 4 years to get the country on the right track. When his "bail-out" was instated I cringed because there was absolutely no accountability required of that money. It was simply handed over to institutions and people to decide what they wanted to do with it. Lots took very expensive vacations, bought new cars and houses with their self appointed "bonuses".
      The banks still did not want to give out loans to small business. The banks actually bought up other banks instead of lending. The graft got greedier.


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      • NoPrevarication NoPrevarication

        @insight

        I consider all this to have been a direct seizure of the Treasury and the doors were thrown open…. Did you see anything in there telling you that you were welcome to the largesse because you were having such a tough time (no job, no house, living on the street)?


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  • Maggie123

    Link is so long as to use too many characters – Vic does make one additional related comment on same page but quote above is the meaty part.

    I find this important insight for me because I post emails to Obama and to my Washington congresspeople. I feel it makes little difference but it's one thing I can do so I do it. I'm not sure how I'll make best use of VicFromOregon's insight yet but it catches my attention. Because I'm in an fairly isolated situation even from immediate potential community and am quite new in an established small community I find local "action" difficult. I do a lot via computer.

    I moved Vic's post here for whatever additional discussion ENE'ers might have on this. How *do* we make a difference! Over and over "start local, develop energy and voice" is what I hear as best advice. How to do when community is disinterested, scattered, preoccupied? Who knows .. but thank you Vic for the thoughts which I'll ruminate on for a bit! :)


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    • VanneV anne

      Please read my comment above and do your own research.

      “While technically the President cannot declare war without Congress, under the War Powers Resolution of 1973, the President can send troops into combat as long as he informs Congress within 48 hours of doing so . Then he has 60 days and then another 30 days for withdrawal before he has to get Congressional approval or a formal declaration of war. Congress has to approve any additional funds that an undeclared war requires.”
      http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_the_President_declare_war_without_Congressional_approval


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    • Radio VicFromOregon

      Maggie123, i'm glad mu comments could spark a train of thought here and there and many here, as well as you, do the same for me. I copied a post i left on the other forum better suited for here, so thanks for starting us off. I come back here, even though my time is very pressed right ow because i don't want people to give in to the hopelessness that overshadows so much of the thinking, feelings, and blogging here. I see hopelessness as almost as paralyzing as apathy. It can get so thick and bad in social change movements that they begin to feed on their own supporters, dismissing every action someone want to try as futile, name calling, using ridicule in place of reasoned argument. I've been in movements that have failed because of this and i've been in movements that have made a difference. Those that succeed tolerate only so much negativity, hopelessness, and aggression from it's members. To allow more is to sow the seeds of destruction. Institutions of power know this and sow seeds of mistrust among movements and if a movement allows too high a level of angst, these strategies will succeed and deflate the core strength of the members. Yet, there are true obstacles beyond our own self doubts about our abilities or chances to bring about change or improvement. How do we explore these issues? I think we start with at least one basic premise – no act of mindfulness, compassion, or kindness is ever wasted. That is the paradigm of abundance…


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      • PavewayIII PavewayIII

        Sorry, Vic. I didn't know you moved this here before I replied on the sinkhole article.

        "…Those that succeed tolerate only so much negativity, hopelessness, and aggression from it's members. To allow more is to sow the seeds of destruction…"

        Do you realize this is exactly what TEPCO and the Japanese government felt about critical thinking? Peace and harmony, no matter how many Japanese must die. I think Scientology is about something like that, too.

        People are dying – we need a solution now. Why turn this into a religion? You should be exploring effective strategies for change, not defending grandpa's failed methods.

        "…How do we explore these issues? I think we start with at least one basic premise – no act of mindfulness, compassion, or kindness is ever wasted…"

        I honestly believe there are far better methods for effecting change: social awareness and action on the underlying disease of psychopathy that causes problems like this, using what's left of the court system to restrain and contain the affected institutions' and industries' actions, and opposing any efforts to withhold or collect information the public needs to ensure their health and safety.

        Personally, I think it would be immoral of me to encourage people to just do what they feel like because any effort is worthwhile. That's how you treat a young child. At some point, reality sets in. Encouragement has its time and place.


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        • Radio VicFromOregon

          I respectfully disagree that encouragement has its time and place. I respectfully submit viewing encouragement and compassion as weakness is one of your larger mistakes. For you, these things may have an ephemeral and meek quality, but, for someone like Gandhi, they achieved independence for an entire nation. Gandhi certainly utilized religion AND philosophy both, and he quite knew the difference between the two. One requires faith in a god while the other requires faith in one's self. Perhaps you are a warrior and if so, then it would be very difficult for you to perceive compassion as a useful tool. But, if you ever decide to study it, and it does take much study to understand and apply, you may find it can have substance and physicality, the things you believe are more real and more effective. What i advocate is perhaps the Akido method to your karate method. People ARE dying, yes, which is precisely why i advocate social change through mindful and compassionate action. If i make a fist, i can do one thing with it – strike. If i open my hand, my possibilities have immediately increased. There is so much more that needs to be done than fight. This is simple physics, logic, and psychology.


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          • Radio VicFromOregon

            @PavewayIII OMGosh! I must apologize to you on my using the phrase "one of your larger mistakes" in reference to your less than cheery view of encouragement and compassion. It is an old debate phrase and much too combative for this conversation, nor do i mean it, really. I mean, i think you are mistaken, hah!, sorry, but, i realized that it could be taken as my saying "a human failing", and i don't think that at all. I think you are a brilliant, passionate, advocate that wants to get the ball rolling, despises fascism in all its forms, hurts deeply for this world and has taken time to share your knowledge with all of us, especially about that damn sinkhole. I gather that you like the direct approach and so do i, but, at least, in my experiences, i learned that i had to develop many approaches because no matter what changes i could bring about, they were fleeting if i didn't have the cooperation of others, especially those most resistant to changing. I think it truly is a conundrum that can sometimes appear as a wall and we sometimes cannot see over it to each other. So, i'm peeking over the top now and i heartily see that you bring and do great good here and i thank you for it.


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            • PavewayIII PavewayIII

              Taken as intended, Vic. No need to apologize to me – I'm the NRC for all you know.

              And I recognize the value of less-direct actions that people are able and willing to perform. If there's personal satisfaction or social enjoyment in doing so, then it has value and I would encourage it for that reason alone. The only thing I am whining about is an inferred cause-effect to such a degree that everyone should take the time to do the same thing.

              These were – I think – Maggie's words from above:

              "…I feel it makes little difference but it's one thing I can do so I do it…"

              That makes perfect sense to me. That isn't wasted effort on Maggie's part at all. She understands the impact and decided to go ahead anyway.

              My comments were directed at Beyond Nuclear's call for "Attendance and Public Comment" at next Wednesday's NRC circus.

              The NRC's mandated reworking of their Waste Confidence Decision and Rule is a confusing and complex topic. Effective EIS scoping (in this case) demands an understanding of how the NRC will use it to circumvent responsibility for *any* credible impact assessment.

              Inundating those meetings with generalized anti-nuclear comments is exactly what the NRC is hoping for. They can check off the 'public comment' box and proceed to re-weasel-word the WCDR.

              Most of the public has no idea what comments are relevant at this EIS scoping session. That's by NRC design, nullifying meaningful public input.


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              • Radio VicFromOregon

                I get your take, PavewayIII and i don't completely disagree. But, i still have seen the presence of people change directions decisionmakers were heading in. Without some effort at making a presence, no change will be forthcoming. But, if "a mass of people" are not adequate because they will fail to understand the complexity of the science or will simply be headcounted by the NRC as meeting a public comments quota, then fill the room with people aware of the technology and the jargon as well, and have the "mass of people" back them. Maybe you can write Beyond Nuclear and give them a head's up. I guess i also wouldn't assume these particular activists don't know what they are doing or don't have the caliber of person available to do their part that you point out needs to be there. My take on this organization is that they are developing as many levels of actionable strategies, people, and resources as they can. In the many social change movements that i have been a member of, we often kicked ourselves for not having people at "the official public meeting" because someone thought it would be a waste of time. What i believe i learned from those times is that no presence of people however small or uninformed, while committed and sincere, goes wasted if they stood up together to remind the powers that be. We don't have to know all the science, we just need to say to the NRC that they had better know all the science and act with conscience.


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        • Radio VicFromOregon

          TEPCO may take a basic premise that is true, yet abuse it. It is not the premise that is at fault, it is all the hidden premises that they attach to it. Is all non-aggression passivity? Your argument suggests that it is. TEPCO takes advantage of a basic tendency of its employees to see themselves as members of a group and their unity as something they can manipulate. But, this is true of all groups. Should we stop gathering in groups because someone with more institutional power might influence us? How can we achieve social change if we do not risk the social limitations that comes with gathering in order to gain the advantages? I submit that things are not so black and white as i am reading you suggest. This not that. No not yes. Good not good. Hard not soft. Adult not child. Shall we take this discussion to the off topic page where Maggie123 kindly and mindfully started the dialogue over there? It would also be easier to have the one place to check back for responses if we all decide to really explore these issues, which would be intense and invigorating, and maybe even very productive to what we are all trying to get done here.


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  • Radio VicFromOregon

    con't…while the premise – most efforts are wasted – is the paradigm of scarcity. As you've addressed in some of your posts, western society is based upon a model of scarcity, which is why we horde as individuals and as a nation as just one manifestation of this paradigm. Using nuclear energy as fuel production is another – an irrational reach for a distorted model of abundance – which is really a hoarders reach for power at any cost because there may not be enough later. It brings its shadow – nuclear waste and radiation leaks because scarcity tries to exploit a science that is in its infancy and no where ready for prime time, if ever, on planet Earth. Applying the model of abundance to nuclear energy development, no plant would come online until safety is assured throughout every step of the process, that weapons could not be made from the plutonium. We cannot bring fundamental, core change to a society based upon scarcity by acting from scarcity or by trying to create solutions and models based upon scarcity. We only get more scarcity. We must explore the paradigm of abundance and learn to act from such a new and strange perspective, to develop experiences and tangible trust in the solutions that come from abundance thinking.


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    • Unknown Unknown

      "The first lesson of economics is scarcity: there is never enough of anything to fully satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics."
      -Thomas Sowell

      [ Cool Japan ]


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      • Radio VicFromOregon

        The first mistake of the first lesson of economics, if those are what constitute scarcity and want, is to categorize it as about quantity. Want is taught. It is sold and inculcated. Left to itself, it remains fairly small and tame. Thomas Sowell is basing his observations, which on the surface appear correct, on a hidden premise about the nature of human beings, believing they will always be insatiable. Is this premise correct? It matters to his argument. Or, have we all learned to ignore the man behind the curtain. Wants can certainly become insatiable. This is called greed. They can also easily be curbed. I would say that the first lesson of economics, at least of capitalism, is how to increase the insatiability of wants beyond what would be ordinary and what would occur without interference from advertizing, media, and other social pressures that benefit from overconsumption.


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        • Maggie123

          VicFromOregon – Thank goodness you weighed in with thoughts that covered the essence of an unwieldy monster reply I decided I could not post – because of its meandering and length, and because even as I gave up I was still not at the end! :)

          My final pondering comes down to questions such as: how do we, in real action/resource use, absent breakthrough in full clean energy technologies such as via Tesla-types, begin to disentangle in such a way that we retain benefits (for example a family member who is an amputee of great mind and enthusiasm is able to participate quite fully due to technology) — while losing mindless chase for other energy/resource gobbling frivolities?

          The question quickly leads to "who will decide" (should be individual but what if individuals lack understanding – so requires information, philosophical inquiry, etc on our essential nature + present earth conditions – but what about individual world views rooted in unidentified fear, anxiety, etc that lead to greed/angry behavior – so requires understanding of wounding/healing of the psyche … (the wonder-wandering for me becomes endless … at least I don't come up with answers that seem timely enough) :)

          So I follow with another line of inquiry – how can we retain deeper wisdom more recently widely gained if we experience earth-wide devastation, so that we don't repeat this mess in future! – Some days I don't allow myself to chase this package of thoughts!


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          • Radio VicFromOregon

            Yet, chase them we all must. I will be back after i think more on your frank questions. I think the answer lies in the difference between developing inner ethics or remaining operating within the rule of law. My dad and i used to talk about this. The rule of law, though external, allows an arbiter, an enforcer, a penalty and everyone agrees to it, though many will find ways around it. And, so, another, clearer, more narrowly written law is created to close the loophole. And, so it goes, and eventually, like the US, you have so many narrowly defined laws limited to specific applications that when you buy a product, 9/10th's of the how-to manual relates to mishandling and lawsuits. It becomes untenable. And, going with your thoughts, people begin to fail to understand the principles behind the laws and begin to only see the specific application, which is to have no inner principles in operation at all, which we are nearing in some quarters of our world.


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  • Radio VicFromOregon

    Sorry for going on ad on, but, this is the place to do it, right? So, in response to why bother to send in our comments to the NRC by Nov 14 (i originally said Nov 15) and some felt it was just a waste of time and offered all the reasons and chicaneries, and deceptive processes that will just stymie us cuz the fix is in (btw, the fix is always already in, so ignore that element) this is my reply:

    No, i don't agree that it is wasted effort. It gets recorded. That is the point. It gets filed somewhere. Social change and justice work is slow and arduous. What i do today is not for me or you. It is for three generations from now, maybe only two. That is how it works. That is how it has come to be that we can even have this conversation. We stand on the shoulders of the work of activists who took a stand regardless of how long the pay off would be years ago. Deep cultural change that must address root causes and root institutions is often cumulative, and not avalanchel. We will never accomplish our goals by focusing on the failures and unresponsiveness of the system and then saying "why bother", we missed the "real deadline". There is always another deadline. We can create our own deadline and send in a thousand comments right here from enenews blogging the second Tuesday of the following week for that matter. Deadlines are the obligation of the agency in question to accept comments. But, in activism work, you keep trying up until the deadline, then right on beyond it.


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  • Maggie123

    Well worth thought, encouraging: VicFromOregon and others on "activism as a way of life" – remind us of continual action, geared to change in coming generations. Activism does not count on change next week, or even in a few months. Discussion from Richard and Pavewaylll. At "Astonishing Thyroid abnormalities…declared OK" ENE article.

    VicFromOregon:
    "..don't agree that it is wasted effort. It gets recorded. That is the point. It gets filed somewhere. Social change and justice work is slow and arduous. What i do today is not for me or you. It is for three generations from now, maybe only two. That is how it works. That is how it has come to be that we can even have this conversation. We stand on the shoulders of the work of activists who took a stand regardless of how long the pay off would be years ago. Deep cultural change that must address root causes and root institutions is often cumulative, and not avalanchel. We will never accomplish our goals by focusing on the failures and unresponsiveness of the system and then saying "why bother", we missed the "real deadline". There is always another deadline. We can create our own deadline and send in a thousand comments right here from enenews blogging the second Tuesday of the following week for that matter. Deadlines are the obligation of the agency in question to accept comments. But, in activism work, you keep trying up until the deadline, then right on beyond it."


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  • Radio VicFromOregon

    A bit of Taoist thought heavily paraphrased – We are not isolated actors here. We are but one turn on the great wheel. We will not accomplish most of our goals in this life. We must combine our lives with the lives of those before us and the lives of those who come after us in one long chain of compassion and fairness and justice that weaves what good and beauty and light it can amid the darkness. That is life within the Tao. Who do we choose to build upon or what path of action do we choose to take? Those are our choices. That defines our karma, our lessons to be learned.


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    • MaidenHeaven MaidenHeaven

      I agree wholeheartedly VicFromOregon. Well said. I don't expect to see drastic change before I die. But I know what I share will be passed along. It only take one person.

      And I do know that petitions do indeed work, having signed my name to a few & having seen legislation stopped..ohh indeed it may come back in a different form…we could hardly expect *them to just lay down & give up…but the point is..you get people aware….& if you listen…others will let out the warning call to be on alert.

      I liken it at times to a bucket brigade trying to put out a fire. You pass me that bucket of info & I pass it along to the next person & so on..& it may take a few buckets but slowly but surely we will put that fire out. And as we struggle, others will come along to lend a helping hand. Just be willing to reach out for it.


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      • Radio VicFromOregon

        MaidenHeaven, well said and i heartily agree. I like the bucket brigade analogy. For folks who rightfully want the change now and not later because the suffering is too much, standing in a brigade line putting out a fire seems useless. But, i know you hold as much or more desire that the suffering stops than when you began this kind of activism. We can't let that passion and drive leave us, right? But, i have found, like you, that change is the long road and learning how to keep that fire going without either burning out or going completely mad is a whole other skill to learn. How to keep your heart and the best of you. Handing the bucket off, you know it is making its way to the fire.


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      • Maggie123

        MaidenHeaven, Vic – My thoughts on continual mindfulness re earth/life/human condition include the question: "Why do you do this when the larger community is content to do a 'bit' and otherwise enjoy itself?" Over time this has led to "Isn't human capacity for mindfulness pretty unique, and if we don't practice it, aren't we rejecting something in our nature meant to be explored/expressed?" And "To the extent we reject our capacity for mindfulness shouldn't we go the full way and operate however it pleases us?" – but when we do that, we exacerbate suffering and damage, something which most of us, sooner or later, find troubling. So we're back to 'mindfulness' that includes empathy, intentional cooperation, foresight re consequences of action …

        Over time I've never developed a 'rational' answer to why I approach life as I do. It has meant much "on but not of earth". Makes no 'sense' except it seems to be the way it is. I've no idea how much I contribute to a better future. I suspect humanity has further to go wreaking havoc, delivering misery, conning self and other along the way – locally, regionally, globally. I *do* know that I've told a few I behave as I do because even though I make a lot of mistakes and 'act out' from time to time I want overall 'weight' to fall "on behalf of life" side of some imagined 'final tally' and I don't even know that I believe in a 'final tally'! Big mystery – I carry on. :)


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        • Maggie123

          "On not of earth" isn't quite accurate. More like "on but not of earthly material chase". (Well, from time to time, but overall, "not properly socialized" :) :)


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          • Radio VicFromOregon

            Oh, interesting, very similar to an old Sufi saying, also attributed to Christians in Romans something of other and to Jesus. Very Buddhist, of course. So, a notion known quite a long time go but rarely practiced – Be in this world but not of it.


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          • Radio VicFromOregon

            Lost Gospels of Thomas or of Mary Magdelene, i can't remember which and i gave my copies to the library to pass on. Attributed to Jesus. – Life is a bridge. Cross it. Do not build your house on it. – I love many parts of the Jesus story, if you can chip away at the religious interpretations of ransoms, and God's son, etc. and get down to the moral story, it has great inspiration and application. I am probably more zeigests than not, seeing a good myth repeating itself through the generations, or i lean towards the Christ actually being a state of mind and Jesus was a compilation of many people acting from the Christ state of mind. The Gnostic view. So, Christ would not be any one person, but, a way of being, and in that state, would get really useful groovy information and a deepening of their connection to others as their awareness expanded. But, whatever, the actual reality on the ground, someone or someones were having some pretty deep thoughts back then ad were asking your same questions. That would be the road less travelled. The red pill or the blue pill.


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        • Radio VicFromOregon

          I'm following right there with you, though i do have good friends who can share some of this experience from time to time. Sadly, i don't get to see them as much as i would like. For everyone else, we are simply odd and undefinable. One neighbor refers to me as "kinda like the neighborhood witch"! I do a lot of herbs, acupuncture, reiki or nei kung qi liao (external qi healing) for them. They all wonder who the hell i am, but, also desire that my presence remain, at least for now. For me, it can be very isolating, but, i need to be near the forest just behind me. I am also learning how to relate to these people, who are a very good example of what you are describing.
          Hmmm…i think the fact that you exist IS the rational answer. Sorry for yet another movie phrase, but, they can be great shortcuts sometimes to conveying a difficult idea becuz the scene is set already ad we can easily project ourselves into the storyline. Since richard sees you as the Tolkien among us, how about a phrase from the first book (and movie) of the Trilogy where Frodo is bemoaning his task and Gandalf is responding – F: I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened. G: So do all who live to see such times. But, that is not for them to decide. All they have decide is…….
          http://www.hark.com/the-lord-of-the-rings-the-fellowship-of-the-ring/i-wish-the-ring-had-never-come-to-me


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          • Radio VicFromOregon

            Maggie123, i don't know how much you know about Tolkien or why he wrote the Trilogy, so forgive me if i'm giving you info that you already have, but, he was deeply sadden by the destruction he was witnessing firsthand by the rise of the Industrialists to power. He saw them as one of the biggest threats that humanity had ever encountered. His book, just as Charles Dicken's books, were a more effective forum to communicate his concern than his direct efforts to try and change peoples minds from supporting the Industrialists. Again, we stand on the shoulders of…. . They both happened to become famous writers because no one wanted to listen to their speeches ;-) Now it's our turn to take up the torch, a flame that goes back eons i suspect. What are the necessary convergences to wake up one person rather than another? Why don't all people? I don't know. But, once awake, there IS no going back. It would be like trying to forget that you ever saw light or felt warmth. It requires accepting a moral code that few want to take up because you can never again be completely comfortable with mindlessness, aggression, greed, injustice. In Buddhism, which you probably already know this, too, there is a state at which we develop where the world becomes intolerable to us. Since we cannot feign disinterest, many choose to retreat from it and become hermits. Others, like bodhisattvas, choose to do dharma practice to remain available to the world and try to reduce suffering…


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            • Radio VicFromOregon

              If we place many of us here into this paradigm for a moment (we don't have to believe in it, but, simply use it as a template that can help clarify a pattern of similar experiences), i think that we would find that many of us are in this next choice phase which can last for decades- what to do? Not the red pill/blue pill choice. We've already made that decision earlier in our lives and it cannot be undone. 5 seconds of my own experience – Having taken the red pill, why am i sooo confused?. Right? This can be really emotionally and mentally difficult work, and years since i took the red pill, and why aren't i completely groovy by now and crap! the world has just gone into an accelerated downward spiral, yet i feel like i'm straddling a star hurtling through space and if i could just open my mind a little further, i could see all the way to the Andromeda Galaxy from my livingroom, always know what to do before it happens, and solve the mystery of how to save the planet before bedtime. Or, not.


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  • MaidenHeaven MaidenHeaven

    ~Breath in

    Breath in a little Plutonium dust,
    Share the pain, the government says you must

    600 grams, enough to kill 6 billion people
    So breath in deeply my dear little sheeple

    The Depopulation plan is in effect
    No where to run, no place to defect

    Those creating this poison will profit too from your ills,
    So be quiet, now just swallow your pills

    Rich with gold & jewels they will be
    but breathe they must, just like you and me

    So even though they will take our money
    A dash of Plutonium will be mixed with their honey

    So fear not, justice will come
    As the Grim Reaper takes them home

    Hell is a highway they must follow
    to a radioactive soup in a very deep hollow


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  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    I want to write something lilting and well.
    An ode to the futures of our children.
    And our lives and blood.. do tell.
    Of days of old.
    That our hearts and minds remember..
    Tis all that is left to tell those most tender.

    We sigh as we dream.. dreams most faded.
    Will we become hated.
    Our children's lives..now shaded.
    By the paradise..we once knew.


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  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    I wonder about the word 'paradigm' sometimes..
    How does a person change the paradigm of hunger and poverty?..as an example.
    Is reality a paradigm?
    Does smiling under duress change the paradigm ..or just make one look like a fool?
    Change of paradigm ..implies options.

    Half empty..half full..the chances remain at 50/50.


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    • aigeezer aigeezer

      Heart, you appeal to my pedantic side with that post. I remember the excitement of reading Kuhn's "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" back in the '60s. As you probably know, it's the source of the word "paradigm" as used and misused today.

      Kuhn's work indirectly addressed the kinds of questions you are musing about – his focus was on changes in scientific thinking – but his insights apply at various levels, from individual to nation-state, to global… or so I have come to think over the years.

      For readers who aren't quite sure what the fuss was about:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions


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      • Maggie123

        aigeezer – thanks for the link. I'm among those who toss the word 'paradigm' around but have noticed it's not as common as it once was, and am more sporadic in using it.

        I hold it to mean something like: "complex view of reality that, despite including unidentified, unexamined, unproven, beliefs is nevertheless at the core of an individual's questions and answers re "truth"." Because groups are composed of individuals, and because "consensus reality" is in play, these comprehensive views we call 'paradigms' are very powerful in human affairs, policies, etc.

        By your link I was reminded that 'paradigm' was (I gather) first specific to fields of 'hard' science. I was exposed to it after it 'leaked out' and offered new insight in social sciences and human potential. (A great link – I quickly and roughly scanned so need to read it more carefully.)

        I like the word 'paradigm' because it "captures" restricted comprehension/apprehension better for me than 'lens' or 'filter'.

        'Lens' and 'filter' have a 'flatness' about them. 'Paradigm' "feels" like it includes complex, dynamic, interactive mental conditions that influence what we believe true, possible, etc.

        I think societies benefited from introduction of 'paradigm' as a concept. All by itself, the word made us aware of limitations that might be addressed! :)

        Also good: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm.


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        • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

          Paradigm shift is a brief view/contact with one of the other coexisting dimensions.
          Experienced by few..those so experienced believed by few.


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          • Maggie123

            Heart of the Rose – I was thinking of 'paradigm' as it operates on this plane (Ha – within a certain paradigm!) but you expand to include more – Good reminder – thank you! :)


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    • Radio VicFromOregon

      HoTR, what i've discovered for myself is that one of the biggest obstacles to finding options in my life is me. There was an insightful discussion i had with a friend several years ago about what constitutes meaningful choice and why are some people better choice makers a or better actualizers of their desires than others. Even amid injustice and unequal distribution of personal attributes, resources, opportunities, there are still often several important choices but they often get overlooked. So why? The theory se was detailing went like this – 3 conditions for a meaningful choice -
      1)you have actual options – this varies, though for some people, institutionalized unfairness like racism play a big part in what's readily available.
      2)you have to believe that you are a choicemaker. This is usually taught. The rich teach it to their kids. The poor tend to teach that they cannot make choices, so they grow up not thinking of options. This works for the rich ;-) though they blame the poor for a lack of initiative as they call it. This speaks to the third.
      3)you have to practice choicemaking to become competent at it. If you have lots of options, are taught to choose, and get to practice, then you tend to see and have more options or feel confident that you can get creative if you have to.

      All 3 are necessary to see options, create options when none are there, and feel able to exercise decisionmaking skills.


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      • Radio VicFromOregon

        con't … There are lots of injustices, power plays, institutionalized crap to get around, bad luck, luck in general, lots of forms of personal and social power, violence, denigration. But, without seeing oneself as a choicemaker, it becomes impossible to even begin to believe in the possibility of options. For a person who sees themselves as a choicemaker, rich or poor, oppressor or oppressed, when faced with a lack of options will think to themselves – OMG, i'm out of options! How do i make more options? That process right there increases their chances 100 fold of finding one if it can be found.


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  • WindorSolarPlease

    Can you stand the truth.

    This is one of her songs that she gives it to us.

    Buffy Sainte Maire – "My country 'Tis Of Thy People You're Dying"

    Uploaded by NativeAmerican4Life on Nov 29, 2008

    CLICK>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTqV1pnQoos&feature=related


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    • Maggie123

      WSP – Great 'Friday music' suggestion – Thank You!! Buffy's "My country 'tis of they people you're dying" is among my favorites of her powerful statements. While connecting to it – "Little Wheel Spin and Spin" and "Now that the Buffalo Are Gone" are also pieces I'd suggest. They are part of her work that at the time deeply resonated with me and still do.

      Can't recall – I know "little wheel" is at YT, and *think* "Now that buffalo are gone" is also. I walked the prairie daily as a farm kid with mindfulness of those who'd once walked the same landscape. Later in college Buffy's music said things I felt I knew true.


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      • blackbeer blackbeer

        One of my all time favorite artists and I do have most of those tunes on my confuser if you want them. Way back in the sixties I was singing at a folk jazz festival and I did her "Incest Song" for the first time. It was really something, I'm guessing that no one in the audience was aware of her, this would have been around 66 or 67 as I recall, but there was dead silence when I finished the tune that lasted about 15 seconds and left my knees shaking as never before. And then the clapping began. Buffy was and is not an understater of her message. Anyway just cool to see her as part of a discussion…………….

        Tom


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        • Maggie123

          blackbeer – caught this earlier in passing while away from keyboard. I sang many of Buffy's early songs in private groups or on my own. Loved "House Carpenter" and "Lady Margaret", along with the powerful social statement pieces. Shared her s.statement pieces with family during a college break and they were *not* impressed. It deepened their worries that I was going to prove 'an outlier'. Anyway – since you contributed to my Buffy reverie this afternoon – thought I'd mention the "dawg song" (Did she spell it 'dawg'?) "Every time I go downtown, the boys keep kicking my dog around" – a very brief lively piece on her Country Girl album that ends with "sure messed up that court house square, with the rags and the meat and the hide and the hair". (The dog took revenge.) I did sing later with a local jug band briefly but Buffy wasn't on our play list. My 'specialty' was "Bad Moon Rising"!

          BTW – have searched off/on at length for full info (title, artist) on one of our jug band songs. Words included "Who's that standing over in the corner? Mary's out looking for a lover of hers. Went overseas two days ago – guess she's gonna have to find another. I'm not saying how I think it should be – all I'm sayin' is it don't look right to me. Gonna have to find, a new design – we're gonna have to find, a new design."

          Have you any idea where those 'new design' lyrics came from? I've posted queries lots and have searched to no avail!


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          • blackbeer blackbeer

            Well, if I go back to my jug band days it would take me back to highschool. My band was called Tommy Acne and The Blackheads. I remember listening a lot to Jim Kweskin and his jug band, I'm sure I butchered that spelling, but I'll dig around that dusty valt that is my memory and maybe among the spider webs of distraction I will find a hint to that musical question….

            Tom


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            • Maggie123

              It was a war protest song, I've an auditory memory of the recording and thought it by a group similar to Credence Clearwater – but I've really asked around + done many browser variations. Have posted queries to sites specializing in songs of the period – so far 'zip' for results. I posed the q. to you because it looks like 'serendipitously' is the only way, if any, I'll learn whose song it was! (Thanks – should say to be clear – it's not a 'biggie' for me at all – just curious now that I can't locate it!) :)


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        • Radio VicFromOregon

          I was almost old enough to be in the audience, i would have loved to hear our performance. Break the silence. End the violence. Thank you, Buffy and blackbeer.


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  • VanneV anne

    Did Prop 37 really lose or was it vote fraud?

    “…So I picked out a few of the biggest counties and called their voter registrar offices. Here are the boggling results:

    “Santa Clara County: 180,000 votes remain uncounted.

    “Orange County: 241,336 votes remain uncounted.

    “San Diego County: 475,000 votes remain uncounted.

    “LA County: 782,658 votes remain uncounted.

    “In just those four counties, 1.6 million votes remain uncounted.

    “The California Secretary of State's website indicates that Prop 37 is behind by 559,776 votes.

    “So in the four counties I looked into, there are roughly three times as many uncounted votes as the margin of Prop 37's defeat.

    “And as I say, I checked the numbers in only four counties. There are 54 other counties in the state. Who knows how many votes they still need to process?…”

    Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/037901_prop_37_vote_fraud_ballot_measure.html#ixzz2Bk5MNWc7


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    • Insight

      Thanks Anne for the Gazprom story. Here is an interesting tie-in that explains a lot about what went on regarding Putins trying to rid the Russian government of graft. Itera is an interesting group.
      scroll down to the Controversies section
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itera


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      • VanneV anne

        THanks, Insight. Here's some from your link:

        "In March 2002, the U.S. Trade and Development Agency cancelled a $868,000 grant to Itera as questions were raised about its legitimacy. In May, Representative Curt Weldon led a congressional delegation to Russia and visited Itera. After his return, he publicly supported Itera's efforts. In the beginning of September of that year, Itera paid the expenses for a Weldon trip to NYC. The following week, Itera told Karen Weldon, the Congressman's daughter, it would sign a contract with her newly formed lobbying firm, Solutions North America, Inc. On September 24, Curt Weldon co-hosted an event at the Library of Congress honoring Itera's chairman. On September 26, Weldon gave a floor speech praising Itera. On September 30, SNA received a $500,000 annual contract with Itera, with $170,000 up front. In November, Itera paid for Karen to join Rep. Weldon on a trip to Eastern Europe and Russia. In January 2003, Itera opened U.S. offices in Jacksonville, Florida, and paid for Rep. Weldon to attend the opening.[32]"
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itera


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  • Maggie123

    Sol Man, DID, Gladys a Milyon, others – I'm shifting a discussion to OT on responsibility of "we" (who is "we"). Early stages of the discussion theme is here: http://enenews.com/state-rep-sinkhole-disaster-could-many-many-years-need-understand-could-happen-further-video/comment-page-1#comment-303280.


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  • Maggie123

    Topic shifted: "Who is 'we'; what is our responsibility?" I've been involved in definition of "we" and challenges to same many times across years. It's a good and possibly needed discussion IMO. :)


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    • or-well

      "We" are the 99%!…
      mostly pre-"occupied",
      while some do whatever they want
      and for relief some get pie-eyed.
      "We" are all now "Downwinders"!…
      but too many are wearing blinkers,
      heads in consumer feedbags
      full of nuclear splinters.
      "We" are all Fukushimans!…
      getting a nuclear creamin',
      a right royal nuclear reamin'
      by pro-nuclear schemers.
      "We" are all media fodder!…
      in front of TV we dawdle
      as more of our freedoms totter
      and the nuke genie's out of the bottle.
      Pro-nukers are yelling "Full throttle!"…
      but there's radioactive slaughter
      happening in slow motion,
      on the land, in the air and the ocean,
      but few are showing emotion,
      or even a little awareness.
      Looks like too many were careless
      for too many generations.

      I suggest we are being encouraged to define ourselves within cultural constructs having increasingly narrow parameters.
      (That encompasses a lot. Maybe too open to interpretation.)

      Our responsibility? May I suggest that if we were to, always and in every instance and circumstance, at least give consideration to whether some proposal or action was beneficial to the children of today and the future, then the world would be in better shape?

      BTW, the rhyme isn't for fun. Within it, I hope, are suggestions of issues worth considering and connected to the questions. I lack familiarity with the pre-existing cultural dialogue on this issue, so lack commonly accepted definitions of terms used to discuss it.


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      • or-well

        Who defines who we are?
        Legal voter/ drinker/ driver/soldier, married, pension eligible,
        citizen, taxpayer, terrorist, law-abiding, sinner, saint.

        This show's for you, this fashion's for them, your peers have and do this, here's something you shouldn't miss, don't be left out of everyone else!

        Which vacation's for you, what book you should read, each demographic has things to want and need. They're not like us, we're like you, who can you trust, here's what you should do.

        Cultural constructs superficial, step outside it's prejudicial.


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      • aigeezer aigeezer

        or-well, you always make me think. I love that!

        "I suggest we are being encouraged to define ourselves within cultural constructs having increasingly narrow parameters."

        That narrow definition thing happens a lot in modern life for sure. I can't tell whether it's usually a "being encouraged" kind of thing or just a matter of convenience, but at some level it may not matter.

        I watched with amusement as CNN plodded through their voter demographics this week. "old people" did this, "blacks" did that, "unmarried white females" did such and such.

        There is a huge industry in identifying such patterns, but it never seems to dawn on the industry that the patterns might be coincidental, spurious or transient.

        I smirk at the daily pontifications about stock market movements – today the Dow rose 0.008 points on news that there is no Santa Claus – the media (and others) habitually link things together implying causality… but always after the fact. When they try to do it before the fact – tomorrow the Dow will rise blah blah – they tend to get it wrong.

        Anyway… yes, there are voices and entities that try to define us narrowly, and yes, we often tend to go along with such patterns… until we don't.

        We will adapt or perish – even Fukuyama (not a typo) seems to be adapting over the years:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_History_and_the_Last_Man


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        • or-well

          Hi aigeezer.
          "or-well" prefers the future vision in the original version of the movie "Rollerball" to Fukuyamas'.
          "Fingers" is more intellectually pretentious.
          I, at the time, dismissed it out of hand as nonsense, now, looking forward to more time at the link, thanks.

          I think this demographic splintering is a "being encouraged" thing AND convenient, also profitable.
          "They" are getting better at "profiling" us at very deep levels.
          Heh, CNN…
          I note the growth of print medias' online versions going paywall, with "X" free stories, and personalisation options.
          That latter serves to reduce commonality in public discourse, I believe, not that broad dialogue on issues of public concern is really encouraged, except within increasingly pre-defined frameworks.
          Here, on the internet, is where much adaptation is occurring, I believe. Expanding our self-definitions or noise? I don't know. I like to think it's helping.
          Who's for The Singularity?


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          • blackbeer blackbeer

            You folks are great. I find myself wondering just what we all believe culture to be. If I were to believe it was the linear composite of the history of an unbroken group of people within a defined area of the planet to which their ideology gains credability and continuity then I would have to believe that American culture is based on bloodshed and genocide. Not very heartening. I'm not saying that is what culture is, I'm not sure I know what it is. I have to admit that I have spent most of my life in the pursuit of self knowledge, and apart from my active antiwar stance, have indulged myself introspectively. I would love to here your ideas on culture and it's importance as to the lessons we are given the opportunity to learn in this "time around".

            Tom


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            • Insight

              blackbeer the linear composite of history can be traced back to the Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal, Able and Cain.
              All culture is based on bloodshed.


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              • blackbeer blackbeer

                Too broad a brush for me Insight, and too dogmatic. I used the word "linear" in a hypothetical understanding of the term culture. Linear doesn't exist in the limitless plane in which we operate. Modern man, that would be you and me, have been on the planet for at least 200,000 years that we know of, and in that time may have come and gone many cultures and civilizations that are lost to us. Your talking only about the last what maybe 10,000 years. And we know very little about even those few years. It's all in who's eyes you see through.

                Tom


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                • Insight

                  Tom why don't you just take humanity back to the single cell form in the mass of atoms deciding to hook up because….dunno… it just felt right? I am sure there were some eyes watching that.


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              • Insight

                on second thought… perhaps the Neanderthals were a loving, sharing, nurturing group(Able) and the Cro-Magnon were the violent, aggressive, thieving group that had advanced intellect (Cain)


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                • blackbeer blackbeer

                  Just not where I'm coming from Insight………..

                  Tom


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                  • Insight

                    Hey Tom… where you are coming from….
                    (no animosity intended here) where did all the "stuff" that makes up the universe originate?
                    Protons, Neutrons, etc… where did they originate?
                    This is one of Lifes great mysteries that a "scientific " mind must have an answer to because it is ABOVE ALL the basis of science.


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                    • Insight

                      Einstein decided it was GOD.
                      If you have discovered anything to disprove Einsteins theory let us know. :)


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                    • blackbeer blackbeer

                      No worry my friend, in truth I don't know the answers to your question. They aren't questions I ask any more. The only thing I know is that I am a part of all it is we observe. I don't yet know the questions to ask, but for a long time I thought I did. But I'm old now, look at things differently then I did before. Spend a lot of time removing limitations in my thought process. It's fun…….

                      Tom


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                    • richard richard

                      Yes Insight, it's simple to disprove your theory about Einstiens theory, there is no god, ergo, fail.

                      Besides, he's a mongrel anyway for creating what he did, there's no good that ever came from that guy.


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                • richard richard

                  I see you're still using a fantasy novel for scientific reference. Maintain the dogma at all costs hey?

                  Operating like this will only distort your thinking. Don't expect true, quality results based in reality.


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                  • VanneV anne

                    Richard, God is a mongrel? You do understand that you are saying that you are better than God is. I doubt that you will find many followers. And the hubris of humans who think they are better than God is what has brought us this nuclear holocaust.


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                    • VanneV anne

                      Plutonium doesn't exist in nature. Plutonium and transuranic radionuclides are purely human creations. Man's inhumanity to others can't be blamed on anyone but the individuals themselves.


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                    • Radio VicFromOregon

                      anne, on the plutonium issue. I agree, but then, why is being exposed to it always compared to a banana? I know it isn't. But, the comparison still persists in many people's thinking. I've read through pages of the differences. What makes it close enough to be construed as the same? Plain ignorance? Any ideas anyone?


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                    • VanneV anne

                      Vic from Oregon, looks like the banana comparison has 2 results. It camouflages the danger of radiation created by humans and it keeps people from eating high potassium foods which actually prevent uptake of radioactive caesium:

                      Playing with Plutonium: It’s Bananas!

                      http://janetsplanet.ca/?tag=plutonium-and-bananas

                      Natural Radiation Prevention Part IV
                      “To protect yourself from cesium poisoning, consume plenty of high potassium foods, as potassium competitively inhibits cesium uptake. Foods high in potassium include avocados, bananas, cabbage, celery, sea vegetables, and leafy green vegetables are all good source of potassium. “
                      http://www.healthyindeed.com/natural-radiation-prevention-part-iv/


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                    • richard richard

                      i only just saw this from the other day anne, so sorry i missed the questioning back then.

                      we've since cleared up my mis-writing over in another thread. I meant Einstien.

                      And in respect, just quietly, I don't say I'm better then a universal force, I never would be that far foolish, as foolish as I can be. (but I think the point is mute as you were mislead on my criticism. I hope that makes senses).


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                  • Radio VicFromOregon

                    richard, you're still inflating what one thinks with how one thinks. They are not the same. Two different, but also linked occurrences.


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                  • VanneV anne

                    Incidentally, I didn't know that BP is part of the nuclear industry, but it shouldn't come as a surprise. Makes more credible the assertion that they were fracking with nuclear explosives in the GOM.


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            • or-well

              Hi blackbeer, re culture -
              I guess it's a matter of scale, in part -
              "the customary beliefs, social forms etc of a racial, religious, or social group"

              "the socially transmitted pattern of human behaviour that includes thought, speech, action, institutions and artefacts"

              I don't like this definition tho -
              "intellectual and artistic enlightenment as distinguished from vocational and technical skills"
              because it seems to me jobs and technology influence and are influenced by culture.

              I think culture can be seen as a process.
              That process is being influenced by social transmission.
              That transmission is becoming more, um, influenced by, well, propaganda, to be brief.
              Consider the pervasive influence of Media, and it being used to "sell" attitude and belief, whether for profit or power.

              Briefly, I feel there are influences creating more of a "sub-cultured" society, with larger cultural allegiances – in practise – being given to the nation-state.

              The bigger counter-trends are "think global"(but not globalisation), the internet and growing "Earth awareness". In my opinion.

              I think now I should have used "societal constructs" instead of "cultural constructs" in my 12:43 PM post.

              However, I don't feel who "we" are need be defined within a limited societal or cultural context. We need to adapt "we" to both local and global contexts.

              Oh well. I'm struggling. Big issues, small words.


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              • blackbeer blackbeer

                I guess you were typing this while I was typing my post about Bernays. Anyway your thought are most interesting and opened. I agree these are big issues almost scary in what they demand of us. In the discussion so far it would seem that the need to define is our vunerable underbelly, the target of cultural PR. I think your right about "think global" which is an off shoot of "Earth awareness". I think the internet has spurred this on. Now I need to read your post again and do a little more pondering…………..

                Tom


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                • Radio VicFromOregon

                  And, that's the rub, blackbeer – "almost scary in what they demand of us". I posit that you, for whatever reasons, find the challenge "almost scary", while billions find it down right heart in your throat terrifying ;-) .


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              • aigeezer aigeezer

                Meh – "culture" is an abstraction, and therefore pretty malleable. We've been nibbling at various linguistic and meta-linguistic issues the last while.

                It's interesting, it's enjoyable, but I don't think it will lead to anything concrete (that's a good thing).

                Hehe – if it did lead to something concrete, it would become dogma and we know where that path tends to go.

                My guess is that we are not more influenced by propaganda now than people were in, say, 600 AD. Pity we haven't gotten much beyond that though (present company excepted, of course). ;-)

                Round and round it goes:

                http://www.worldology.com/Europe/early_dark_ages.htm


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                • or-well

                  I've heard various pharaohs and Octavian Augustus were good propagandists! Popes too.
                  With calls to war and that we accept the deaths of innocents, I'm wondering if the consequences of propaganda in an age of rapid technological mega-death aren't more serious.
                  Or, are we catching on? (!)
                  Will a time come when mass persuasion techniques fail to outpace understanding of them?
                  I don't know.


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                  • aigeezer aigeezer

                    Yes, or-well, that's one of the juicy questions of our era. It's fascinating to watch various persuasion/understanding battles play out here, among other places.

                    By and large, I don't think the propagandists yet take the Net very seriously. It will be a terrible onslaught once they do. Contemporary sock puppets will seem very easy to deal with compared to what must be in the pipeline.

                    "Trust me. I have an avatar." ;-)


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                • Radio VicFromOregon

                  aigeezer, if i may add a thought. Sometimes lots of people resist the propaganda for a time. There are the periodic cleansings of the gene pool of people who don't accept the propaganda. The last spate of witch burnings took out a sizable chunk of non-docile females and too docile males from the gene pool. The term "fag" comes from bundling up male homosexuals like fags of wood and burning them at the feet of the witch to start off the fire. Numbers range from 3 million to 9 million mostly women. Very few good records were kept or survived various city fires, etc. How far would gender equality be if tat hadn't happened. Of course, they got burned for various reasons from church propaganda, eliminating women in positions of power, and also grabbing women's land, who, in parts of Europe could inherit property for the first time. The person crying witch or the Church often got the land much like civilians who turned in Jews, queers, Gypsies and disabled people got the apartments of their victims. But, my point is that humanity somehow rises up against propaganda again and again from time to time, though at with risk.


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          • aigeezer aigeezer

            Hi or-well. I remember Rollerball as being pretty dystopian. I'm guessing that's not the aspect you mean.

            As for the Singularity – too many of them for my old brain to choose from.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singularity

            This is a tough communication medium, even when all parties have the best of intentions.


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            • or-well

              Hi aigeezer, it was the global, corporate, anti-individualistic aspect. Life looked materially good in it.
              It was the Ray Kurzweil singularity.
              Yes, very tough medium.


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              • aigeezer aigeezer

                Got it, or-well. The corporation was even Big Energy, I think. That's a chilling coincidence.

                Blushing a bit – Kurzweil – I should have guessed. My ai lobe lost out to my geezer lobes.

                Some days I think the Net IS the singularity. Other days I think it's just a digital supermarket tabloid.

                This is one of those days. ;-)


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        • blackbeer blackbeer

          Your post and the previous post by or-well "who defines who we are" made me think of the book The Engineering of Consent by Eddy Burnays. What a guy he was. Even got his uncles books published over here in the early 30's when most of Europe had already sh$& canned his ideas and moved on. The timing was unreal, as the ability of mass media was also just being realized and the ideas of Burnays were a perfect match for the beginning of cultural "encouragement".

          Tom


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          • Maggie123

            Ongoing mention of Bernays bodes well – Keep sharing/listening everyone – whatever's on our minds that's relevant to human/earth/life wellness! Edward Bernays has become a more familiar name. References pop up in multiple places. Five yrs ago this was not the case!

            I've not read "Engineering of Consent" but have heard recordings of Chomsky on "Manufacturing Consent", his book that elaborated on the concept. I've also found increasing numbers are familiar with the BBC docu series: "Century of Self" that reviews Bernays work in early episodes. (Century of Self avail at YT and elsewhere on line for free.)

            IMO, learning of our normal 'drives' and vulnerabilities to manipulation is fundamental to freeing intelligent, discerning, thought – which leads to resolving social/politically based issues!


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          • Radio VicFromOregon

            Bernays was one sick, sad fu–, ooops, just one moment, excuse me, my inner mindful persona is emerging – Bernays was one very lost soul that we had all best remember in case he comes back again.


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        • Radio VicFromOregon

          aigeezer, i love this! – "I suggest we are being encouraged to define ourselves within cultural constructs having increasingly narrow parameters."


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          • aigeezer aigeezer

            VFO, I was quoting or-well – wouldn't want to take credit for one of his delicious epigrams.

            Sometimes he and I have mild disagreement about the extent to which the "bad stuff" in life comes from a smallish group of "bad people" as opposed to all of us somehow doing occasional "bad things" unintentionally.

            Put another way, is the "being encouraged" part done at the hands of someone who does it consciously – muuhaahaahaa – or is it the cumulative effect of little "innocent" changes such as "let's get more detail in the survey because the last one didn't tell us enough"?

            If there is some "evil few", then over time everyone else should be able to identify and defeat them. If instead the perps are "all of us", then the problem is much harder to solve.

            Is Dick Cheney a monster or a loving grandfather or both or neither?

            I imagine the truth is in some messy middle ground.

            http://www.alternet.org/story/52430/cheney_poses_with_newborn_grandson,_but_not_his_lesbian_daughter


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            • or-well

              Re: Who "we" are, authority issue.
              I think our response to/use of/relationship with/dependence upon authority is significantly established in childhood.
              Of course it develops as more relationships with "authority" form throughout life.
              As simplistic as that may sound, I believe it is far from simple.
              I'm putting this in this spot and include "use of" authority because aigeezer asks such an important question @9:12 above.
              What does shape the USE of authority? How much is programming/conditioning, how much is innocent/circumstantial, how much is conscious?
              Same goes for our response to it.

              Have a good weekend. I am off to remember the insanity of war in my nation's capitol.


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              • aigeezer aigeezer

                Hi or-well. I'll offer "the child is fodder to da Man" as a semi-flippant answer to your serious question. More seriously, I imagine there is a lot of academic investigation of the topic but it's not an area I've studied outside of general psych themes.

                Speaking of the insanity of war, 200 years ago this year Canada and England were on the same side fighting against the US, which indirectly resulted in Tchaikovsky writing the magnificent 1812 Overture.

                But wait… the plot thickens… "Many Americans believe that Tchaikovsky's overture represents the USA's victory against the British Empire during the War of 1812, however, Tchaikovsky actually tells the story of Napoleon's retreat from Russia in 1812. In fact, Tchaikovsky even references the French national anthem La Marseillaise and Russia's God Save the Czar within the music. The USA was quick to adopt the piece, as it found itself lacking in the patriotic song department."

                http://classicalmusic.about.com/od/romanticperiod/qt/Tchaikovskys-1812-Overture.htm

                "God Save the Czar" – who knew? Americans thought the piece was about them – who knew?

                It gets harder and harder to follow the script of who we are supposed to hate as the years go by. I've grown too cynical to honor wars or warriors. How 'bout that Petraeus dude?… fascinating timing for his fall from grace.


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            • Radio VicFromOregon

              Yep. The messy middle. We all have so many conflicting urges. Let's hear it for the struggle of being human! I mean, who designed this anyway? Oh, i did? I'm the creator of the universe? Dang it. Too deep to ponder for now, so—

              But, it's those pesky little belief systems that people start living in, the scripts as Eric Fromm would suggest, the illusions that Buddha would suggest, the bardoes as the Tibetans would suggest, the…. living out their stories rather than living out their lives. It keeps turning out the same cuz no one is bothering to write a new story. And, well, if the story didn't always turn out the same, then it would't be the same story. Hmm…something about the power of myth, let me see…hmm, hmm..what was that?…. So, let's get writing folks!!!

              Or-well, i like your quote i credited to aigeezer who recredited back to you. This metaleveling act itself is proof positive for the signs of intelligent AND compassionate life in the universe. We all created that? Kewl. Maybe we're getting the hang of it ;-)


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      • Maggie123

        So fine, Or-well! Part of wondering who we are is linked to "so – what is my (our) responsibility?" I've been in quite a few conversations in which I assert a "we" who is responsible even in some ways on consequences that originate back in time.

        I have heard much of "My ancestors may have done that but it wasn't me, I'm here in this time and can't be held accountable for their actions". I've also heard (from guys who don't want to demonstrate support openly) "Well, *I* believe in women's rights" so what other guys do/say has nothing to do with me."

        Defensive language when one feels unjustly tossed into "we" can be strong enough to be almost palpable.

        It's not my argument any of us should pound our heads against walls or otherwise inflict self-punishment for possible link to wider cultural abuses/atrocities – now or in times past.

        It's my argument "harm has been done". Who did the harm is less relevant that to observe "here in my time, I witness wounds from earlier harm done" and because I witness the wounds here/now, it is up to me to see if I can help with healing and also help with finding causes so we can avoid more harm.

        But as emotional defensive language demonstrates – we live in a culture that for generations back has believed in angry, vindictive, "guilt-assignment" with "suitable punishment that inflicts pain".

        (Next – I'd end repeating what I said in my post below re "cultural entanglement, income security, etc…


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        • PavewayIII PavewayIII

          "…But as emotional defensive language demonstrates – we live in a culture that for generations back has believed in angry, vindictive, "guilt-assignment" with "suitable punishment that inflicts pain"…"

          My deepest, darkest fear is this continuous corrosion of empathy. I see more and more otherwise 'nice' people that have a disturbing tendency for unrestrained vindictiveness.

          I *is* we. I am responsible for everything. There is nothing else.


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          • blackbeer blackbeer

            Glad to see the importance you place on empathy. It is the chief hint to our connectiveness. I think it's corrosion is a hint to the outcome of our collective present course. I share your "deepest, darkest fear"………….

            Tom


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          • aigeezer aigeezer

            "I *is* we." Yes indeed, PavewayIII. I started to learn that lesson at around age 55, late in life yet still a long time ago. I remember vividly… an old lady wanted to cross a busy street in Vancouver but was tentative and kept stepping out and back. I approached the intersection completely unaware of her or her needs and started to cross – then somehow "got it" and offered to help her. After we crossed she said "Thank you. That's what we're here for, isn't it – to help each other."

            Her comment really burned into my awareness. She was so matter-of-fact about one of the great rules of life.

            Living up to that idea is the hard part, for all of us.

            I've told that story before, and it may come across as a corny "so what" kind of thing, but my point is that little incident really changed my attitude – about everything!

            I live a rural lifestyle now and I'm vividly aware that I've lost the "rat in a maze" mindset of North American urban life. There's more to empathy issues than that, of course, but it's a factor.


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            • blackbeer blackbeer

              Not corny at all aigeezer, in fact it points out the fact that what we learn and how we learn it has nothing to do with a system of education that is considered credible or not. It is part of the magic of life. You just never know where or when that next meaningful lesson will take place. Horses taught me that, among other things………..

              Tom


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              • BreadAndButter BreadAndButter

                I just wanted to thank you all for the "food for thought" you offer in this wonderful conversation! I'm amazed!
                I've not even got up yet (Saturday morning here), and already feel inspired and looking forward to the day.
                Amazing personalities you are – thanks for sharing your pearls of wisdom.

                *peace


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                • or-well

                  Re: empathy. Response & comment. To all and sundry (on complex thread!)
                  1. I think there are trends/currents in N.American society that have the effect of dulling empathy. Put-down humor, concentrated peer group/demographic segment identification,
                  media jargon shorthand, economic segmentation. More.
                  2. I think most if not all humans have an innate capacity for DEEP empathy, I mean REALLY knowing the feelings/ideas/inner self-sense of another. It seems to activate only in special circumstances.

                  Sorry for the inadequately explained brevity, I'm rushed.


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                • Radio VicFromOregon

                  me, too! I'm here instead of working. Too inspired to stay away. I'm self employed so i can stay up late. Goodie! My deadline half finished.


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  • Maggie123

    Topic: cultural entanglement – income security, mortgages, etc.

    I found myself thinking as per below while viewing video at http://enenews.com/state-rep-sinkhole-disaster-could-many-many-years-need-understand-could-happen-further-video/comment-page-1#comment-303296.

    My thoughts:

    It's reasonable to assume scarcely an individual involved in information or decisions in the Sinkhole's history has potential "income security/mortgage" pressures. That is the nature of our debt-based economic system. Think: "generalized insecurity" and "protection of what has been gained".

    At the same time, associated with our insecurity, we've got a "find someone to blame" mentality. We want punishment – heavy financial cost and/or incarceration.

    The debt based system demands "entanglement" (i.e. owing money for major needs like housing, health care, education). Once entangled, anxieties even if low-key and 'background' become constant. The anxieties nudge our choices toward looking after "me/my immediate tribe". The anxieties also nudge us toward withholding information. We'll only be as open, honest, generous, as we feel we can afford – literally!

    I think we absolutely need to recognize this about current culture and economic forces within it. Alternatives to blaming and punitive treatment of those who fail is found in principles and practices of conflict resolution, Circle Justice, and Restorative Justice.

    We *must* re-consider a debt based system! (??)


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    • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

      The debt-based system is as old as caveman.
      The first time credit was extended in the barter system..the debt-based system was born.
      No man is an island…and can not singularly provide all that is necessary forsurvival.

      What is keeping the silence surrounding the sinkhole?.
      Complicity.
      The small communities in the area have no financial or emotional value..to the companies involved.
      Whether the people live or die..or live in a sick environment means nothing to them.
      The trap lies in the fact ..the people believe the authorities.
      And just like in the BP situation..it will be their undoing.


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  • blackbeer blackbeer

    Thanks Maggie for the shift. I notice that is is getting more difficult to be spontanious in the headline threads thanks to a few self declared "topic policemen" who are determined to limit the free ranging investigation of any and all ideas presented in those threads. Be that as it may this subject is interesting to me in that I am now thinking there may be two "We's" at work in this wild and crazy world that "we" find ourselves in. There is the "we" that comprises the general population that believes in cultural progression, such as it is, and individual inlightenment and there is the "we" that believes in total control and domination of the other "we". This is an article that I read this morning that I hope you will read, it's 6 pages, and ponder.
    http://www.alternet.org/world/new-weapons-systems-could-give-pentagon-unprecedented-power-over-planet-or-lead-future?akid=9666.102195.lWUcri&rd=1&src=newsletter741850&t=15
    To me it speaks loudly as a manifesto for that other "we". It also demonstrates quite clearly the magnitude of the battle we are about to have to fight in order to at least have a hint as to what this gift of life is all about. I would love to see this discussion extend on and will wait to see if it goes anywhere. It's early here and I haven't quite gotten my load dose of cafeen but am standing by to leap in if this takes off.

    Tom


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    • Maggie123

      blackbeer – will read the alternet article soon. I too think the 'we' topic valuable and already it seems quite a variety of ideas are sparked! :)


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      • blackbeer blackbeer

        Yes indeed Maggie and I am, again, humbled by the depth of those ideas already presented by those who have earned my total respect over the last year and a half.

        Tom


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      • Maggie123

        blackbeer – re Alternet article on coming US military gee-whiz fancy techno stuff – finally I did read the article! I was astonished enough that I took time to pre-write the thoughts that came to mind. Longish but here goes:

        Re Alternet future US military article

        I must admit I didn't read word for word. I trusted Alfred McCoy's research; stats and descriptions accumulated at a goodly clip; and I moved along at a speed that seemed appropriate to delivery pace. (My brain has never settled well on numerically rich text. Zeros entering my head fall away from lead digits or attach themselves to others – too much to track unless I take notes and even then it's only the notes that remain reliable.)

        I confess – I laughed. Wandering off on an errand, I thought of ant farms. If someone has an ant farm in a glass box and enjoys knowing the ants can't escape but will remain busy – what then? What next? More ant farms? Caged birds, aquariumed fish, penned chickens – and of course, humans under full control also? Astonishing insanity for what end?

        Success is an end I can't imagine would satiate. The mentality to develop “security' as per the article seems a sickness. The “need an enemy” addiction dare not run out of adversaries. Yet unless space aliens interested in a good fight can be found, the presumed society of ultra-elites chasing this control will need to turn on one another? (cont…)


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        • Maggie123

          My brain at this point just can't take these guys seriously despite my willingness to believe it's all true. It seems completely silly even though I acknowledge the horror.

          So I finished my reading. Kept an eye out for a section on militarization of civil police which surely belongs with such an article, or as a Part 2. I didn't notice a “humanity on the ground” portion and maybe it's just as well.

          I also kept an eye out for thoughts on high-tech being defeated by low tech resistance. That's another section I'd like to read McCoy's thoughts on.

          I can imagine a few possibilities for humanity on the ground. All of them if described would mean a more primitive and/or wary existence for most of us, but not loss of intelligence and creativity – and not losses of compassion or awareness of beauty. Usually my “sub-elite” reality visions turn out to be exaggerated. I guess I'm saying that I predict what I value most would endure.

          Maybe my whole self refuses to “connect” to what's being described. Maybe it's not unlike the 'syndrome' that might account for the many we often comment on who can't (don't seem to) connect to issues that activate many of us – such as more routine life/earth destructive practices already well underway. (cont …)


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          • Maggie123

            Incidental comment. Caught his use of “seminal” which I've made a practice of changing to “ovarian” in honor of women who create/produce break-throughs in human thought and technology. But since this article is all about war machines, it seems best to leave “seminal” in place – I'll save my “gender equity” editorializing for another time! :)

            (Final comment: Wonder why I kept seeing a Cheshire cat like face that also looked a bit like D.Ch's as I read?)

            :)


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            • blackbeer blackbeer

              I knew you would have something interesting to say about the article. I love the way your mind works. "Ovarian" indeed. LOL……….
              Well now I can go to bed and ponder all that has been said today. What a pleasure this place can be….

              Tom


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            • Radio VicFromOregon

              Oh, Maggie123, i'm with blackbeer in our mutual admiration of your thinking processes. I love following along!

              For anyone interested in a fictional story about a few possible responses to such an article, or our current situation for that matter, i recommend The Fifth Sacred Thing by Starhawk. Might have to find a used copy. Dunno. But, a great read about scattered groups of people empowering themselves in very low tech fashion. It begins with a group of grandmothers taking pit axes to the sidewalks and streets of their neighborhoods in San Fran so that they could grow their own food. Closer to San Diego are the elite with a vast high tech mercenary army, human cloning of children for sex toys, and an iron grip on the water. An engaging read. See ya all in about a week. I'll be reading your posts, but won't have time to reply. Be well everyone.


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              • Maggie123

                Vic, book is available, film in works, and website focused on permaculture with elements featured in wisdom of "Fifth Sacred Thing" – or so it appears! I've not thoroughly checked them all out, but definitely these seem the case on quick perusal. Wikipedia on the book is brief, flagged for need of work, but Yikes! – may be not far off in time-line! Thanks for reference to "The Fifth Sacred Thing"!


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                • Radio VicFromOregon

                  Btw, on the self realization/empowerment stuff – Getting Clear and also Our Bodies, Ourselves were very powerful. You must remember those. Great examples of women simply taking information and knowledge, demythifying and demystifying it, and making it available. Also, i'm sure you already read it – Don't Push the River, it Flows by Itself by Barrie –someone whose last name i can't remember. She was a gestaltist who learned under Fritz Perl. It might be interesting to get a list of all the works that have been done on this subject in one application or another. Could be 16 books and films, could be some old farts from 2000 years ago, could be a truckload. I have no idea. Yikes, i gotta go, i still haven't done my work! Bye.


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    • Insight

      Hi again Tom,
      I read your informative and frightening article about weapons systems.
      It saddens me knowing that all individual freedom has now perished and our lives are at the mercy of government surveillance. On the other hand I am amazed and fascinated by the astonishing advances the human mind has achieved. Who knows what is on the drawing board. However, I am not convinced that the U.S. preserves its global hegemony by militarized technology alone; basically because I do not believe the US has all of the superior technology.
      Now this might be like pulling the cinch to tight on ones skittish horse,(please no bucking) but I have some ancient info on this exact same topic. Revelation Chapter 11:5 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy(days of war…Haarp weather control)and to have power over water to turn them to blood (chemical weapons in water supply) and smite the earth with all plagues as often as they will. (bio-weapons) This chapter talks about WW3.


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      • richard richard

        utter rubbish Insight. you quote utter rubbish.

        The bible is a fantasy novel and you are on a research blog. The two are not compatible. One deals with supporting long term propoganda and population manipulation – and the other is inversely opposed to the former.

        You don't learn anything nor help anyone by quoting garbage scriptures. Wake up to yourself fool. You're just another propoganda tool.


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        • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

          Perhaps the disconnect between science and religion the mankind's persistence in the imagery of a personalized God.
          The Big Guy in the sky.

          Umm..and lol..those that study both the working of the macrocosm and microcosm..sometimes..when tired of equations..the light too dim for even natural observation..
          There is that something ..that something that 'binds' the universe.
          The original order from disorder.

          The flower..yes..the roots ..the stalks..the pollen.
          From where cometh the perfume.?


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          • richard richard

            Hi Heart.

            I've no problem with an essential element of 'spirit' and/or astral with an interwoven higher awareness. In fact, believe it or not, that's what I generally experience in my day to day, minute by minute awareness in life.

            The big guy in the sky is the elephant in the room. For people to insist that the universe is nothing but a giant courtroom, where you will be judged by some 'authority' and set to the appropriate fema camp, it's just ludicrous.

            The universe was around long before humans and they're heirachial judgement and creditation systems.

            The bible is simply a transposition of human government systems into a series of parables. any bible, not just the bible. These are human words, making human judgements. And, as suggested by other writers, Revelations etc was most likely written by psycopaths.

            Finding awareness means dropping preconcieved/prewritten principles. You can't be 'in the moment' if you are bothered by holding idealogue principles. They lock your thoughts into a box, and may prevent new and unknown realities into your awareness.


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            • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

              It has divided the people..this vanity..the people hold ..as one set holds up their vision of the Creator.. as better than the others…even though it is evident that the different lands were 'given' different visions.. as they were given tongue and tastes.


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            • Maggie123

              Hi Richard – I've not weighed in much on your challenges to influences of dogma, the bible, and so on. But coming from a solid Calvinistic heritage, dealing with it has been a significant part of my personal "journey".

              And my heritage environment was pretty benign, all things considered. My mother told me when I was a child that she'd concluded "hell" and "heaven" as popularly believed were not real, (she did some mighty self-sorting to let herself come to that – I remember!). And someone – either my Mom or generously wonderful farm women Sunday school teachers – told me God was neither male nor female, not a little old man in the sky sitting in judgement, and was everywhere in everything. In the end – I still had to go through a "process", and was astonished at the grip the concepts had on me. The wider culture did so much to reinforce Calvinistic perspectives which had similar matches in RC beliefs. The whole American broad culture, to my observation, is still caught in what I call "secular Calvinism". (I think academics have explored, written on this.)

              Given my 'loose familiarity' with bible stories, I continue to use them but shamelessly pick/choose as suits my beliefs. For example I think "sins of father will be visited on child" is wisdom pointing to environmental influences now proven valid by vast research in psychology. (cont …)


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              • Maggie123

                I don't find anything "special" about the bible other than that it's among ancient sources of wisdom since validated in more measurable ways – such as the "sins of father" example.

                Another I like is "a little child shall lead you" which I have decided references inborn wisdom of children that I found abundant during years of teaching young children. Intuitively they disliked injustice, easily forgave and re-accepted a child who gave them trouble, and were so naturally empathic that they would have given away any possession or wealth to someone who seemed to have need. (They could be rascals too, but even the rascals developed empathic enthusiasms and 'caught on' to advantages of conflict resolution and cooperative community. Any need to be defensive and/or aggressive seemed to fade away. I learned so much in that work!)

                I've explored a lot. I've got views that might challenge some ways of 'framing' Eastern teachings too. I've witnessed 'karma' interpretations as equivalent to "it's God's will" and also as equivalent to "you brought the on yourself". Neither standard "Christian" nor some standard eastern popular interpretations pay much attention to the weight of "consensus reality". Both can suggest full weight of life experience is on the individual and since we're here on a material plane, with material concerns, and with innate "tribalistic" behaviors – consensus reality, IMO is a powerful force. (cont …)


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                • Maggie123

                  I've explored all this so much that I've settled into what psychology has to offer. This hasn't explained a larger reality to me, and I hold views on that also, but they're not 'religious' in any conventional sense.

                  … Just thought I'd run an account of where I come from into the conversation since the theme does come up! :)


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                  • richard richard

                    Thanks Maggie, you're a bit of a Tolkien of the blogsphere (i mean that in an affectionate way, your abundant and wide spectrum use of words and language made me think of it ;) ).

                    I wont go on much more, we've covered some ground here.

                    But I thought I'd take a paragraph or two to try to explain why I am putting up 'challenges to influences of dogma'.

                    For a start, the nuke industry swims in it. The information that is released is often swamped in a style that obfuscates and mystifies. And I see similar traits in 'religion' and other (dis)information memes in society. Previously, I've also expressed my thought that there is a connection between some 'fundamental' groups and nukes. It's a bit of a support network going on, i suspect.

                    Following on, religious broadcast in electronic media is accelerating. The growth has certainly been going for a decade or two, but with lower cost satelitte services, these groups are going global and going hard. I know, I'm in media and I've been working alongside some of the organisations. I'm not saying it's bad in itself, but my concern is the total amount of influence that is taking hold, and with a very applied force, I have to say.

                    At the same time, there appears to be zero or no challenge to the spread of this influence, it's obviously politically incorrect to question, so I keep getting told by some.

                    Anyway, that's part of my anti-spam/dogma motive, if it helps.


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                    • Maggie123

                      richard – Soldier on – Please! This world needs challenge again and again to unexamined, unidentified, beliefs and the practices that develop from those beliefs.

                      I believe there *is* a connection between "some 'fundamental' groups and nukes", although I suspect only intentional manipulative types are aware of it. For those unaware, it's rooted in the psychological need to experience certainty, and a learned practice that "showing respect" means not asking pointed questions (when asking pointed questions is actually a key way we participate in one another's learning IMO.)

                      I've got another 'theme' I won't deliver because as usual it's long, but IMO we've got to release ourselves and one another (societally) from "co-dependent" relationship habits linked to notions of hierarchy, power, and 'status'. These notions are rooted in innate "felt vulnerability", confirmed by experience, and lead to obsequiousness, among other non-helpful ways of experiencing relationship such as aggression and 'power over'. (The 'power over' types are the more intentionally aware in many cases, IMO, although some 'control freaks' operate with little awareness, out of learned anxiety.)

                      We've a ways to go yet – We can use a variety of means to nudge and challenge one another, gently or starkly as feels appropriate, with corrected style as feedback suggests! (Or so it seems to me.) :)


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                    • Radio VicFromOregon

                      richard, isn't dogma just where the thinking ends and the conformity begins? Isn't the pressure to conform the issue? Trying to wipe out dogma would be an unending quest. Is it the source? Does dogma generate more of itself? It looks like it does, but, it may also just be the end product. The cloak, the maze people get lost in, but, still, just the trap, not the layer of the trap. It may be the pit that people fall into, but, what dug the pit? Dogma itself? The real culprit is the push to stop thinking, to stop questioning authority as the bumpersticker implores us to do. You are right in seeing that dogma is not often our friend in the long run, but, i'm thinking it is far easier to help someone start to think than it is to wrestle away their belief system. They have to reject it themselves. You are a brilliant thinker, and dogma must look like a dark hole that swallows up new possibilities. I think understanding dogma, its power or practice and what is behind it will go a long way in helping us change the paradigm of destruction. So, what do you think dogma is?


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                    • richard richard

                      Hi Vic.. you asked a direct question there.. i'll see if i can answer it.

                      technically, and thru wiki, dogma is a 'system of belief or doctrine held by a particular group or organization. It serves as part of the primary basis of an ideology'

                      it continues, (and i hadn't really placed to much on this point before) …

                      'and it can not be changed or discarded without affecting the very system's paradigm, or the ideology itself'

                      The term derives from Greek δόγμα "that which seems to one, opinion or belief"[3] and that from δοκέω (dokeo), "to think, to suppose, to imagine"

                      so generally where i've had a problem with organisation-isms (thanks John Lennon) is the club-ism. The discrimination against those that question doctrine is my first anchor point of challenge.

                      The fact that there is discrimination – it flies in the face of contemporary trends that attempt to break down discrimination across all social quarters.

                      i'm commenting with a broad brush here.. not being specific on cultural groups. so i may be sounding ambiguous.

                      … >> more


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                    • richard richard

                      >> …

                      many may hear dogma and think religion, but it's a ploy that is used to control groups of people other then religions.

                      some dogma (this word gets boring) is required within certain disciplines in order to create a coherent social force.

                      Country Womans Associations and volunteer or rescue teams will not question their chain of command. That's a good thing. But them, none of them get evangilistic and try to tell us we're dammed if we don't follow their systems.

                      …………………….

                      so, now it's nearly two in the morning here.. so i better crash, enough late night contemplations ;)


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                    • richard richard

                      Just after I wrote about 'religious broadcast in electronic media', I see HP have just blogged a commentary on the subject matter I actually had in mind.

                      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stephen-mansfield/the-mormonizing-of-americ_b_2083125.html

                      "… that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has reached critical mass. It is not simply that a startling number of Mormons have found their way onto America's flat-screen TVs and so brought visibility to their religion. It is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter- day Saints has reached sufficient numbers–and has so permeated every level of American society on the strength of its religious value …"


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                • Radio VicFromOregon

                  Maggie123, i use the word karma, at least now after many different ways of thinking about it over my lifetime, as the parameters, limits, and lessons or knowledge i will need to collect to be fully exist on whatever path i chose for just today or for all my life. PreBuddhist Hindu views of karma did see it as a proscription from some entity or an explanation for past life practices creating a next life's status. It was used to support the caste system, for example and explain why one person had riches while another suffered. Gotama Siddartha, the fellow that Buddhism was founded upon tried to change the concept of karma as not a gift or punishment from gods nor payment for past deeds, but, rather as the things you will need to learn wen you have followed a certain path and have, thus, defined what experiences you are likely to have. He introduced the concept of "individualism" apart from the Indian caste system, which is why so many became nuns, monks, and devotees to escape the injustice of the caste system. Sadly, he was't wanting to include women because he felt the political and social upheaval of allowing them souls rather than having to be reborn as a male to gain a soul would threaten his chance of founding a system he wanted to last 1500 years. But, he was persuaded to take the risk and women, for the first time in that part of the world in such vast numbers, could pursue a life of personal development. The West often mistakes Buddhism for a religion…


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                  • Radio VicFromOregon

                    con't…because as it spread, it became enmeshed into many religious practices, in part because religion was a very common institution for the inculcation of social mores and values. Philosophy was the other, though it, too, wasn't always purely secular.

                    Secular Calvinism, great term, at least for me, introduces the concept of "deserve" and what one must do regarding it's different kinds, for example – i deserve this because i'm human, i deserve this because i'm good, i deserve this because i'm poor, i deserve this because i am able, i deserve this because i tried, i deserve this because i was bad, etc. MOst Wester blogs, and certainly this one, is filled with the various conflicts and permutations of who deserves what and why as it relates to nuclear power, for example, deserve to e safe, to be told the truth, deserve to have electricity from it, deserve to not have electricity from it, deserve to bur in hell because of it, on and on. A little boringly i might add. ow, back to karma…most people think it is about deserving, but, what i think it is about as relates to nuclear is something lie this -


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                    • Radio VicFromOregon

                      con't…karma is what we will experience, good or bad, desired or resisted, to fulfill a choice we make. Every choice immediately sets limits – this path north instead of that path south. If i go north i will need to learn to dress warmly. If i go south i will need to learn to dress so that i don't overheat. Karma is simply the mechanism for the learning. Not a judgment. Not a deserving. Not a reward. Not an indication of self worth. Yin and Yang. If i choose to be a warrior, i will need to learn how to win and survive and i will need to learn how to lose and die. I will be exposed to circumstances that will inevitably teach me both because i cannot separate what is a whole. That is why separation is the illusion in Buddhist thought.


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                    • richard richard

                      'The West often mistakes Buddhism for a religion"

                      thanks for that today. you made me click, and explains responses i get sometimes. cool.


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                    • Maggie123

                      Thank you Vic for taking time to describe your knowledge of karma – the "enlightened" version. :) !! I managed to catch word of Zen before I got to Buddhism and each has added deep value to my life. When I challenge karma concepts I do try, as above, to qualify as in "standard popular" – "popular" being key. I didn't know how else to suggest. But it's true, I've come across rejection of consensus reality as a factor in human suffering from both east and west "popular" conceptions, just as both also can be used to arrive at "all is one"! (3rd source – Christianity, and perhaps much eastern thought also, neglect sufficient mention – by my admittedly informal and too casual study – of vitality in non-human life, so I've drawn on my equally informal and too casual sense of Native American concepts for that!)

                      It's true, I'm really quite shameless in my borrowing!

                      "Karma is what we experience … the mechanism for learning" … I *do* like that, along with your in-between elaborations! (More shameless borrowing underway!)

                      I read of Buddha's life – time spent here, then spent there – as he developed his understanding. I think he promoted this approach and insisted the individual must make his/her personal study/journey? As per my habitual shameless borrowing I declared: "Hey – I can use that!", added it to my bag of collected helpful guidances, and ventured on! :) Thank you so much.


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          • Radio VicFromOregon

            I love your question of "From where cometh the perfume"? Your question would make the Persian poet Rumi delighted. As it does me. Thx.


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        • Insight

          Hey there Richard, I can show you it is real, the answer to perhaps one of the most difficult and unusual "mysteries" of the Bible and if this does not convience you it is REAL then nothing will. I was astonished myself when I made the connection. Ezechiel 1:1-28
          go here http://www.military-today.com/helicopters/ka52_hokum_b.htm
          also scroll down and look at the 1st small copter photo."each wheel being double, so that it could roll forward or sideways. Whatever of the four directions it moved, always presented the same aspect" Then go here http://www.helmets.co.uk/news/f35-jsf-helmet-blurring-the-lines-between-man-and-machine If you had to describe this helmet to someone in ancient days would you say it looked like an bull/ox? The F-35 demon helmet gives a 360-degree spherical view of the battlefield. Would you describe that "as eyes all around"? Now go here
          http://www.helicopterhelmet.com/Alpha-200-Dual-Visor-Helicopter-Helmet-_p_706.html If you had to describe a guy wearing this helmet perhaps "lion" would give a man from the past some idea of what you are talking about. If you saw 4 helicopters in the distance firing missles with flames & smoke billowing around them would you describe them as "living beings" because they move and seem alive? The windshield can be described as an "expanse of crystal"right? On(looking thru) this crystal a sapphire throne( because the pilot has power over life/death), and on the throne one resembling a man. This is the…


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          • richard richard

            yeah, ok Insight. It's all been said and done before, to no avail.

            Maybe look up 'Chariots of the Gods' if you're that bored. ;)


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            • Insight

              Richard did you even bother to look at what those photos are? 'Chariots of the Gods' concept speaks of an obscure alien spacecraft. The BIG, BIG difference is the actual style craft is a Kamov Ka-52 Hokum-B helicopter! That is not from outer space, that is from RUSSIA. You know… one of the nations that is plotting World War 3 & going to destroy people in the months to come.
              Here is a cool vid on the F35 helmet, awesome technology!http://gizmodo.com/5248464/how-the-f+35-demon-helmet-looks-inside


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              • richard richard

                'in the months to come', okay, now we have a timeline. Thanks, I'll watch as nothing will really change :)

                Oh and Vic, I read u below. I'll see how I can go.


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                • Radio VicFromOregon

                  Believe me, i have my "where is my Uzi days". Wouldn't it just be easier to shoot everyone that disagrees with me? Might i not be doing myself AND the Earth a favor? Really dark stuff. Then i remember that i'm really not here on this planet to decide who gets to ride. So, then i get depressed until i remember why i chose to eat vegetables instead of meat, and realize i probably have to apply that core decision to the rest of my life, too. Richard, i want to slap everyone silly one minute and ask for group hugs the next. The thing is, the people you get the maddest at here seem to ignore your jibes and just come back for more debate. So, maybe it's just me having a reaction?


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                  • aigeezer aigeezer

                    I hear you, VFO.

                    As for interactions here, I always remind myself that it's the Net, very high stakes are in play (corporate Big Energy stakes), and that inevitably some of the players here will be agenda-driven, and the agenda might be almost anything – certainly including distractions and disruptions.

                    It is what it is. I have no illusions but… there sure are some good people here and it's very useful just to know they exist.


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                    • Radio VicFromOregon

                      I agree with you aigeezer. In fact, i've finally come to see it as an opportunity to educate the more reluctant or lost. Heck, i wave at my laptop screen from time to time just in case ;-)


                      Report comment

        • Radio VicFromOregon

          oh, richard, you're not even trying nearly as hard as i am to be nice. You said you'd try. This IS the off-topic forum and not the research part of enenews after all. There is a bit of a metaphysical, quasi religious, really religious, quantum physics, philosophical, sociological discussion going on here in this neck of the woods about how to become empowered personally to deal with environmental calamity. Think of it like the movie King of Hearts where the inmates of a sanitarium take over because the staff have gone due to the outbreak of war.


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          • Maggie123

            I'm been wondering – if we keep this up, "a bit of a metaphysical, quasi religious, really religious, quantum physics, philosophical, sociological discussion" – maybe a dedicated forum would be a good idea. Or maybe, given clear go-ahead, we suddenly have nothing to say. Or maybe we'd find ourselves wandering well beyond what has been suggested so far! :)


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            • Radio VicFromOregon

              Not have something to say? Really? Not! Just about everyone here is ultra verbal thinkers. I was on the same track and was trying to figure out how to contact Admin to put in a request. If they weren't interested in humoring us unless we promised to solve the problem of human apathy while we were at it, i may just have to start that cooperative dialogue website i've been thinking about. There are a few out there, but, they generally stick with one focus only. I'd love to see a site like how this one is organically growing that also has some agreement to help someone you disagree with provide the best argument or description of their ideas as is possible instead of tearing it down. It's a challenging and fulfilling exercise and helps everyone find the shortcomings in all our arguments without embarrassing or intimidating each other. It really goes to understanding and expanding consciousness and i really believe therein lies our solutions. A groovy thinker's compassionbased think tank. I think we, back to the collective we, are getting closer to the nadir just before the swing back to the other pole. Our discussions are timely, if just for the energy they generate within ourselves, and certainly the world. It'd be a gift to continue to explore with any here and others. I sent you a link to one based in Texas cuz i somehow thought you were from out of there. I don't think it is online, though. My goof.


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              • Maggie123

                Vic – IMO Fukushima and all related nuclear concerns are an "ultimate threat". The Pipeline issues are close to the same as we consider implications. Much "off topic", even all, that has transpired today originated with specific articles focused on Fukushima and Pipeline. There's a relationship between hard-evidence based ultimate, tangible, threat and deeper questions. Without a springboard of fairly tightly focused 'ultimate threat' we might not engage so vigorously with the deeper questions.

                At the same time, I catch a few comments from 'non deeper-question' ENEers that suggest frustration. They see off-topic as useful for related political info that is neither Fukushima nor Pipeline and find their posts swamped by long discussions of less pragmatic or immediate concern. (??).

                I don't have a clue how easy it might be for Admin to add another forum to funnel off what might be most easily labeled 'philosophical considerations', or something like that. But I assume from evidence of how this site is run that Admin treasures 'free flow thought' and would want to try supporting what you beautifully describe as "organically growing that also has some agreement to help someone you disagree with provide the best argument or description of their ideas as is possible instead of tearing it down. It's a challenging and fulfilling exercise and helps everyone find the shortcomings in all our arguments without embarrassing or intimidating each other."

                (cont…


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                • Maggie123

                  There's no good reason not to propose/request a new forum to Admin, so far as I know. It's sort of amusing that we've not yet done so but this afternoon and evening have produced something of a blizzard in the 'philosophical' genre, and maybe it's time.

                  I've been at keyboard too long last some hours and need to step away. I think the 'news tip' box in lower rt. corner under 'forum' list is our communication with Admin? Oh – just checked, there are some equally likely contact links at bottom of screen – one labeled 'admin' and one labeled 'contact'.

                  Will check tomorrow for thoughts – I appreciate you've got a new schedule and may not reply. We'll see! :)


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                  • Radio VicFromOregon

                    I finished my work and am back checking messages before i head to bed. I was thinking that we might unintentionally dominate the non-nuclear forum, so a move to a dedicated one might be well received y folks who want their forum back ;-) We are all tired and also pumped. I'm still smiling. Thanks, Maggie123 for suggesting the idea and for moving this whole thread here. You've got us on to something!

                    I've copied aigeezer's suggestion of how to frame the purpose of a new forum, our starting place –

                    aigeezer – "Our version in a hypothetical dedicated thread might be: Given that nukes exist, where do we go from here, and how do we do it?

                    It's an alternative game to "ain't it awful", at least."


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                    • Radio VicFromOregon

                      And, of course, one more thing! If we made the forum self monitoring, then Admin would not have to stretch their time to it. That could also go towards your basic goal of self authority. Then again, someone could come along and just trash the hell out of us and we'd want to get Admin in to referee or ban them from the forum. Maybe something like The Day The Earth Stood Still with Gorap? or whatever the robots name was.


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            • Radio VicFromOregon

              Oh, btw, i'd love to hear you say more about your thoughts on self actualization/empowerment/governance. I think your insight that dependence on authority breeds a sense of vulnerability that keeps us essentially frozen to act outside the norm really, really needs more exploration and people thinking along with you on that. That's deeper than that damn sinkhole, but infinity more life sustaining, though some would say, just as explosive if not more – your notions in this are, of course, revolutionary. Ooops, probably just set off an Echelon tag with that word.


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              • Maggie123

                Vic – will get back on "dependence on authority". Does not seem revolutionary at all to me but your characterization may help explain my slow progress after so much drum-beating! A fine day – thanks to you and to all. :)


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                • Radio VicFromOregon

                  Well, certainly revolutionary to societies based upon outside hierarchical authority. To the likes of you or me and several others here, it is self evident ad we might even feel reassured by it. But, most people call it anarchy, thinking it a form of chaos. So, while you may have Calvinistic origins, you certainly have strayed from the fold ;-)

                  Btw, aigeezer and blackbeer have some good thoughts on your suggestion about a new forum and aigeezer has a way of presenting it that may help Admin go for it. I'm getting really hopeful here!


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                  • blackbeer blackbeer

                    Well here it is Saturday morning and I just now got caught up with what went on after I went to bed. So interesting, so moving to see such fearless thinking going on. I would love to see a forum where we would be free to follow a train of thought where ever it led and share with each other the experiences that have led us to where we might be. This is meaty stuff and well worth the effort to partake. Again I am at a loss for words when surrounded by such open and free thinking individuals. Shine on………………

                    Tom


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      • blackbeer blackbeer

        It's funny you would use the tight cinch sinario, can't spell, because I am an old cowboy so it is not lost on me. And don't worry about me bucking either. Your beliefs are your own and no more significant or insignificant then my own. Though I must admit that I have no beliefs at this time. Only observations as I roll through this unbelievable experience. In recent times, say 5000 years ago Science and Religion were one and the same thing. Egypt comes to mind. There are countless streams of knowledge flowing through consciousness, where I think we may make a mistake is when we insist on taking a single stream, stop its motion, fix it as a structure and end its useful life. In fact it becomes an impedament to the flow of knowledge. Remember, we are in school here, we are the students, not the teachers. These are only my thoughts and I do not ask you to share them. It's what I've come up with so far on this trek. Not much I know but I wasted a lot of time thinking I knew everything, more then once, only to crash into the fact that I really didn't know anything. After bashing into that reality many times I tend to be more careful with my conclusions. In fact I have stopped drawing them at all. I enjoy being engulfed in the stream, trying to be a part of that flow, not knowing where it will lead.

        Tom


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        • Maggie123

          Blackbeer – your post is the 2nd I've come across here today that has reminded me of a book by author Sheldon Kopp. Kopp was an psychotherapist (in NYC I think) who also had suffered from, dealt with, brain cancer. He explored "essential meaning and purpose" with his clients and wrote several books. I enjoyed all I read.

          One was a book called "Guru". I can't remember much except the thesis, which was that every religion emerges from a deeply felt need/longing within a population. First meaningful wisdom arises, then it's formalized, becomes dogmatic, and is no longer useful. It is gradually abandoned and eventually another spontaneous "wisdom-awareness" takes shape. The replacement wisdom finally becomes a religion with dogma, and so it goes!

          (One of Kopp's books was: "If You Meet the Buddha On the Road, Kill Him" – title gives away thesis, "truth" finding is ultimately an individual affair.) :)


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          • blackbeer blackbeer

            Don't think I know of Kopp or of his work but my memory is suspect at all times. I do remember my interest in Siddartha in my formidable years, way back when, and the beginnings of a different way of thinking. When I really think about it, the largest impact on the way I think was the hammer of combat, also in my formidable years. I think that was when I decided to be my own teacher or a student in a larger school. Of course there are many planks laid in front of us all on this journey whether by unseen hands, or thoughts we run across, actions we observe, or what ever. Anyway, this has been a real fun day for me in this place. Got some real insights into people I have grown to care about and got some mental exorcise ta boot. Thanks for starting this little romp…………

            Tom


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            • Radio VicFromOregon

              blackbeer, would that be Nam that you got your "hammer of combat" in? I still cry about that war. Though we have had far too many others since. I am glad you could grow and change from that experience rather than close off or go numb. We here are all the better for it that you did.

              I read Herman Hesse's Siddartha when i was 15 and my life changed forever. If you can think, wait, and fast…

              Well, thinking comes and goes and i need more naps between times. The older i get the more impatient i become. And, well, we won't even discuss the topic of fasting ;-)
              Yet, i still strive to do these in some fashion everyday. Some days better than others, of course.


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              • blackbeer blackbeer

                Good morning VicFromOregon, yes that would be Nam. And thank you for the kind words. I'm not sure yet as to how well I handled that situation, my shrink told me to try and get a handle on how successful I had been in dealing with that experience and the only measure of that that I have come up with is that I am still alive, but that is only because of the intervention of a life long friend so I can't even take credit for that. I was about the same age as you when I was given Siddartha along with the Glass Bead Game and discovered there was really another way to think. I also had a hell of a mentor back in those days who I was finally forbidden to see and had to resort to sneaking out of my window at night to meet with her until she died. I've been very lucky in this life even though I was, on many occasions, quite ready to vacate it. Now it has become precious to me. Not because of what I know but because of what I don't know. I have learned and am still learning how to open to the stream of ideas that is our natural realm. Way too much fun.
                Take care;

                Tom


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                • Radio VicFromOregon

                  blackbeer, i am here because i had the same mentors whether for 2 minutes or for several years. They saved my life, my sanity, and my soul. One of my mentors, Herb Shapiro, used to teach me and one of my brothers how to form an argument rather than just get all excited or become hostile. We, of course, were trying to end the war, ad trying to get it into public discussion. Lar used to smuggle Felix Green's photo essay of Vietnam over the border from Canada and we'd take our copies around and show them to anyone who would look and probably tried to make others look who didn't want to see. It was banned here back then, of course under one of those national security acts or treasonous acts things. Dopes. That book went around the world within weeks. I have been in and have intervened in many horrible things, but, never war. Still being alive is a very good measure, Tom. But, still being alive and having gotten to where you are now with your self realization helps to sow the seeds to end that thread of suffering for all those who have being woven into it, including yourself. You may not "know anything", and neither do i, but i know that you are rare.


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    • Radio VicFromOregon

      ooh, might that be Ms. Yin ad Mr. Yang you're talking about rolling about along a continuum of event triggered space and time?


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  • Insight

    I believe the beginning of culture was the day man made his first artistic creation. Art is culture. Mans behaviour stems from his desire to possess it because through it man judges his personal worth and vanity. Clothing, ornament, everything man creates has a design and from design comes culture.

    The History of art is a multidisciplinary science, seeking an objective examination of art throughout time, classifying cultures, establishing periodizations and observing the distinctive and influential characteristics of art.


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    • richard richard

      I've kind of seen this as a trinity of the artist, the scientist and the craftsman.

      The artist finds inspiration and dreams, the scientist takes the dreams and engineers a contruct, then the craftman applies his skills and talents to physically build the contruct, which then inspires the artist to dream of more. :)


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    • Radio VicFromOregon

      Okay, Insight, that's going to take me about a week of thinking on. Could you break that down for me a little more?


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  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    DynCorp Gets $72.8 Million Contract Despite Negative Reviews and History of Child Trafficking

    http://theintelhub.com/2012/11/08/dyncorp-gets-72-8-million-contract-despite-negative-reviews-and-history-of-child-trafficking/


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  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    NEW YORK OFFICIALS REPORTEDLY CONSIDER CLOSED PRISON FOR DISPLACED SANDY VICTIMS

    http://republicbroadcasting.org/index.php?cmd=news.article&articleID=4473


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  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    Ron Paul: America has already gone over the fiscal cliff

    http://rt.com/usa/news/paul-fiscal-cliff-obama-364/


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  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    I don't think that individualism has to be the anti -thesis to collective consideration.
    If both conditions are based in freedom…these ideas can work through cohesion.
    What is good for the individual is good for the whole.


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    • or-well

      Heart – "based in freedom", yes, a whole that regarded freely and deeply questioning individuals as a necessary asset.
      Some say we've never been freer to be individualistic.
      Just don't dissent too strongly, or oppose the wrong interests too effectively.


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    • Radio VicFromOregon

      I get your drift and it's a good one, but, capitalism is based upon "enlightened self interest" – "my own greed will benefit others", thus the banksters as one example. "My nuclear power will turn the lights on for millions of others and so it is good" as another example. So it's the definition of "good" that i could use a little more clarification on. This is important Heart of The Rose cuz it goes to the core of many, many things that get set up or put into practice. "Good" has different meanings or maybe it's just ot expanded enough when the choices are made. Msybe not all the elements that would make it "good" have been satisfied, like "good for the earth, too". Right now that lack of clarification of what is "good" is killing us. What do you personally mean by "good" for the individual or how would you measure it, if it could even be measured?


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      • aigeezer aigeezer

        VFO (and all), there's a "thought game" sometimes used in Mensa that helps focus such things.

        The challenge is to describe or set rules for a society that are optimal for everyone in it. In the "game", someone proposes a set of (simple and elegant) rules, other people think a bit and then offer some kind of "yes, but".

        For example, in a first round, someone says "the Ten Commandments are all we need in the way of rules" and the critics respond with something like "How would you eat if you are not allowed to kill?"… on and on – the usual stuff – "Oh, it's OK to kill carrots" or "Oh, it's OK to kill in self-defense" or "Oh, it's OK to kill bad guys", blah blah.

        After a while, that one fizzles out (of course) and somebody tries "the Golden Rule – do unto others – is all we need". That one usually goes down quickly with something like: "OK, you are born the only Republocrat in a world of Demicans. Do you still think this is a good system?"

        The process is: propose some system, then imagine yourself as a member of that system but in some unexpected role (not necessarily human). Does it still seem like a good system?

        It's tough!

        Our version in a hypothetical dedicated thread might be: Given that nukes exist, where do we go from here, and how do we do it?

        It's an alternative game to "ain't it awful", at least. ;-)


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        • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

          The good of the people. begins with an adaptation to one's environment.
          Understanding all good things can come to an end..
          I too would like to elaborate more but am pressed for time at the moment.

          Off to compost fall rubbish.

          I like your final statement/question above..aigeezer.

          PS.MENSA..those linear thinking geniuses….lolol.


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        • Radio VicFromOregon

          Oh, excellent, Aigeezer. I like the starting premise and Admin might go for it. I was trying to think that we could always use a dedicated page on facebook for open discussion if nothing else was available. I love the and/ but game but i've only used it in counseling. A bit different version than the mensa one but the same idea. I'm getting excited! I love process, i love action, i love a solution made from people's collective insights!


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          • DisasterInterpretationDissorder DisasterInterpretationDissorder

            A quick general Enenews dynamics observation.
            While good folks focussing for the next tickling tought promised by the drums of the previous, they didden't realise they already started dancing themselfes out of their shackles , those sneaky drumbeats ,
            how dare they turn despair in to ritmic power the programmer knows not how to contain !

            Random Martial arts saying " if a teacher is not surpassed by his students ; he is no good teacher "
            Hangover and out.

            Ps : i'm considering starting to post in diabolical complex dutch , maybe then you guy's can enjoy wrestling with 15 wiki-tabs at once for a change grrr lol.
            Keep it coming !


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  • MaidenHeaven MaidenHeaven

    Only 6% of the children will be healthy by 2033 in Saitama city, Japan. Mr. Kowaka, the chairman of NPO Safety of our foods and life analyzes the contamination situation of Saitama city is the same as Ukraine from the field research conducted from 9/24 to 10/4/2012.

    http://fukushima-diary.com/2012/11/comparing-to-ukraine-the-ratio-of-healthy-children-in-saitama-will-be-only-6-by-2033/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+FukushimaDiary+%28Fukushima+Diary%29


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  • arclight arclight

    now cameron is selling weapons to the middle east.. enough to "keep " em going for a decade maybe..

    the main man in the bbc who covered it up is going to the new york times.. no surprise there..

    question
    what pedophilia ring is he going to cover up in the usa then??

    heres the mess hes left in the uk
    (please feel free to make his stay in the USA memorable ;) )

    UK ‘child abuse’ allegations “these revelations are only the tip of the iceberg”

    ”we know here at NAPAC, that there are more names to come that will shock the nation.. ” (Video)

    http://nuclear-news.net/2012/11/10/uk-child-child-abuse-allegations-these-revelations-are-only-the-tip-of-the-iceberg/


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  • WindorSolarPlease

    Air Force ships Calif. radioactive waste to Idaho landfill

    CLICK>>http://www.sacbee.com/2012/11/08/4972790/air-force-ships-calif-radioactive.html


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    • Radio VicFromOregon

      Great find, WSP. Well, with a name like US Ecology, they must be environmentalist, right? Well, a rose is a rose is a rose, thank you Gertrude Stein. Mine tailings are very toxic. My question is this – is the stuff being stored in special containers or lined beds or just mixed in with the landfill? My good take away from this article is that it takes all of us informing those in positions of decisionmaking about ALL the issues or details. We can not assume that they know. This fellow had not been informed and once he was by a outside agent, he went and looked for himself and raised questions. The outcome was the same on the surface – the stuff went into the landfill – but, it will be harder to pull this off next time. Thx!


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  • Mack Mack

    "Fracking for gas not only uses toxic chemicals that can contaminate drinking and groundwater—it also releases substantial quantities of radioactive poison from the ground that will remain hot and deadly for thousands of years."

    Read more at http://enformable.com/2012/11/fracking-for-gas-not-just-a-toxic-chemical-risk/#WPK0ATo7QDI5RU8f.99


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  • Jebus Jebus

    Another Deep 6+ Earthquake…

    Type: Earthquake
    59 minutes ago
    Magnitude: 6.1
    DateTime: Saturday November 10 2012, 14:57:50 UTC
    Region: Central Peru
    Depth: 122 km
    Source: CSEM-EMSC Feed


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  • Maggie123

    HEADS UP re ON-LINE PETITION SITES?? I rec'd an 'odd' petition request today by email.

    Backing up – I'm signed on to a few well-known citizen initiative petition sites and get email alerts. I always click 'learn more' before signing. Nearly always the petition turns out one I can support.

    About 3 wks ago I caught wind that one of the better known of these sites had shifted (from necessity) to including "paying customer" petitions.

    Can't remember – think it was 'change.org'. Part of my point – the petition site did NOT send out an email notice of the change. At the time, 'care2' was mentioned as a "go-to" alternative.

    This morning I got a petition request via Care2 on US health care improvement – one of my passionate causes. At first glance it seemed a perfect match. I checked for 'more info.'

    The petition was OPPOSITE of anything I'd like to support. It was vague, 'smiling', and soft-worded: "lets get health care back on track". It did NOT describe outcome for under-served Americans, WHO WERE NOT MENTIONED. It struck me as a CALCULATED SALES PITCH, a few good emotional trigger words.

    Turned out the petition's sponsor is an AMA group. AMA bears careful scrutiny, (akin to US Chamber of commerce).

    The 'learn more' info alarmed me. Many may sign these petitions if at first glance the cause seems supportable. IT APPEARS PAID PETITIONS ARE MIXED IN with the others.

    PLEASE IF YOU PARTICIPATE IN ON-LINE PETITIONS – READ BEFORE…


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    • Maggie123

      … READ BEFORE SIGNING … THANKS!!!

      Also – please share with friends elsewhere that these petitions need to be checked out more carefully than may have been the case until recently.

      Due to space I did not give detail on the deception I think designed into the petition on health care improvements. I've not got a webpage in front of me to provide examples but some of the 'vague marketing language' included statements like "lets work together as citizens and physicians."

      Since I'm well aware of Physicians for a National Health Program I assumed they'd show up at least as a co-sponsor. Surprise! PNHP not involved at all – it's the AMA!

      It really angers me that the AMA could rack up signatures from the unwary and use them as evidence of citizen support!!!


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      • Radio VicFromOregon

        Thx, Maggie123, Care2 is just a paid conduit to pull in signatures from anywhere online. They also sold my name so i don't sign any petitions they anchor to sites i might visit anymore. I worked in non-profit and managed to raise millions of dollars without selling names, cold calling, or sending out weekly appeal for donation letters. I attended the original workshops that were held around the country by an advertising agency to teach non-profits and others how to cold call, etc. I simply had to walk out. It works in that it gets you some money and a donor base, ad if you do good work, the hooray!, kinda. The donor base tends to drift away quickly for lack of a relationship with the organization. Some do better now creating that relationship, but still overwhelm with the appeals, so they have to keep going back to cold calls, etc for new signatures, donors, etc. A rat wheel or whatever it's called. I believe they have to do this because they are not doing the things that would educate enough of the public and draw funds to them voluntarily. This goes with the self authority thing, but that's a chat for another time.


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  • Jebus Jebus

    Do you live near an east coast radiation plant?

    New evidence shows power of East Coast earthquakes

    RESTON, Va. (USGS) – Earthquake shaking in the eastern United States can travel much farther and cause damage over larger areas than previously thought.

    U.S. Geological Survey scientists found that last year's magnitude 5.8 earthquake in Virginia triggered landslides at distances four times farther—and over an area 20 times larger—than previous research has shown.

    "We used landslides as an example and direct physical evidence to see how far-reaching shaking from east coast earthquakes could be," said Randall Jibson, USGS scientist and lead author of this study. "Not every earthquake will trigger landslides, but we can use landslide distributions to estimate characteristics of earthquake energy and how far regional ground shaking could occur."

    http://www.wkyt.com/news/national/headlines/New-evidence-shows-power-of-East-Coast-earthquakes-178420621.html


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    • Jebus Jebus

      4.3 magnitude earthquake reported in Kentucky

      WHITESBURG, Kentucky (AP) — The U.S. Geological Survey is reporting that an earthquake centered in Kentucky also rattled other nearby states.

      http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/11/10/43-magnitude-earthquake-reported-in-ky/1696457/


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      • jump-ball

        Repost from November 9, 2012 at 10:42 am:

        It's that time of the month for quakes: new moon 11/13, lunar perigee 11/14, and the highest west coast tides of 2012 at 7'5" on the 13th and 7'6" on the 14th. A generic EQ 'window' would be 3-4 days before and after perigee, i.e., today 11/9 through 11/18, applying to Japan as well.

        We have a new battery in the wall-mounted, inverted pendulum, P-wave detector, and the van will be parked outside for the duration: our motto remains 'if you aren't looking for it you won't see it coming'. Local desert cities CA fire departments subscribe to a web-based P-wave alert service that allows them to keep trucks inside and still have time to get them out before the following S-wave could damage and prevent the firehouse doors from being opened.


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        • Radio VicFromOregon

          Thx, jump-ball! I live on the side of a hill with a steep slope of trees above me atop a liquefaction zone along one of the biggest fault lines in Portland that should be breaking loose within the next 50 years. I can feel the ground vibrate when large trucks are gearing up or down at the bottom of the hill. Yes, i HAVE developed a tendency to pray.


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      • Jebus Jebus

        Magnitude-6.6 earthquake strikes northern Myanmar

        YANGON, Myanmar (AP) — A strong earthquake struck northern Myanmar on Sunday, causing residents to flee their homes, but no injuries or major damage were immediately reported.

        The magnitude-6.6 temblor hit the area at 7:42 a.m., according to the U.S. Geological Survey. The quake had a depth of just 10 kilometers (6 miles) and hit 117 kilometers (72 miles) north of Mandalay, Myanmar's second-largest city.

        http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/11/10/myanmar-earthquake/1697027/


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  • 16Penny 16Penny

    I have heard of burying a story but I was shocked to find this:

    https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/peacefully-grant-state-louisiana-withdraw-united-states-america-and-create-its-own-new-government/1wrvtngl

    Guess that is one way of keeping a huge disaster off of a President's record.

    First Bayer dumped Texas Brine after the failed cavern inspection last year, now will the U.S. dump L.A. to prevent a major environmental liability? I am being sarcastic but if you must lash out I understand.


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  • VanneV anne

    Spain Police Beating Everyone: A Warning To America

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzP8znpQI9I


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    • richard richard

      Australian cops love beating people up and tasering them to death as well. They've been learning from the scum pigs of the USA.


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    • Radio VicFromOregon

      My niece-in-law is from Spain but is here now in the US. Going back into that fray right now is just not an option. I'm grateful they decided to stay here. I also have another niece over there right now, and she is an activist and i hope she knows to stay clear when things get this heated there. She's taken photos of scuffles and protests from much too close for my old Auntie Vic tastes. Often a woman can walk safely at night alone in many parts of Spain because of so much police presence. But, police brutality is also a common downside of a powerful police force. The Spanish policia are accustomed to being taken seriously and will beat the living heck out of you if you don't do as they request.


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  • dharmasyd dharmasyd

    For anyone still involved in the HAARP – Chemtrails CT or CF debate:

    >>> "Chemtrails. The Realities of Geoengineering and Weather Modification
    By Prof. James F. Tracy
    Global Research, November 08, 2012
    Url of this article:
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/chemtrails-the-realities-of-geoengineering-and-weather-modification/5311079 "<<<


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  • ENENews

    I'm getting dozens of comments reported every day now and don't have the time to be going through them all and sorting out each situation. Let's please quit the personal attacks and OT posts. Thanks, admin


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  • WindorSolarPlease

    INTERESTING

    The Coast In Louisiana Is Sinking 11-10-2012

    TheGrowingAwareness

    CLICK>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxEvSfDxtXM&feature=plcp


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  • 16Penny 16Penny

    Hey Maggie, Over here!

    I'll look into it a bit. Looks like this has been covered by multiple sources for well over a year so there should be some good info out there.

    What is it exactly that you are after?


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  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    Wowsers..Petraeus …

    Might as well add to the mix..

    http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/11/09/petraeus-resigns-mccain-celebrates-with-new-friend-shocking-exclusive-photo/

    Something to be learned here ..me thinks..
    But what is it?……lol.


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  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    Juicy stuff…

    David Petraeus Resigns as CIA Director – CIA Holds Angelina Jolie Photo-Op at Headquarters

    http://theintelhub.com/2012/11/11/david-petraeus-resigns-as-cia-director-cia-holds-angelina-jolie-photo-op-at-headquarters/


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  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    Desperate for shelters, New York considers turning jail cells into homes

    http://rt.com/usa/news/new-york-shelter-jail-417/

    Ummm…..perhaps a discourse on the silent suffering of the people.


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  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    Spy chief Gen David Petraeus, his 'embedded' biographer and the FBI email trawl that exposed their affair
    General David Petraeus resigned as CIA director after an FBI hunt for a suspicious emailer revealed his affair with biographer Paula Broadwell.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9669532/Spy-chief-Gen-David-Petraeus-his-embedded-biographer-and-the-FBI-email-trawl-that-exposed-their-affair.html

    I hope this is the part ..where he gets to return to civilian life.
    Because..despite all honorable intentions…

    IT'S A FOOL'S GAME.


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