Published: September 3rd, 2012 at 5:28 pm ET
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Published: September 3rd, 2012 at 5:28 pm ET
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'Farewell interview' Amy Goodman speaks with Dennis Kucinich today on Democracy Now. http://www.democracynow.org/
Maybe his thoughts will become more widely known (through interviews, speaking, etc) now that he's out here in the open away from Washington?
Kucinich on first 2 Democracy Now segments. The 3rd is also telling – a review of status of the "Wilmington 10" – innocents sent to prison 40 yrs ago due to outrageously corrupted trial; served 10 years. The deep corruption is now widely acknowledged but still no pardon.
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thanks M123! Kucinich is one of the (very few) good ones on the hill. Don't listen to Democracy Now much any more. Their incessant coverage of issues that affect 'people of color' makes me ill. Curious if their ilk will ever cover the issues that concern all of humanity…
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speaking of Democracy Now, you only have to look at how they're treating the issue of civilian gun control within America, to know they're in the back pocket of the NWO…
http://www.democracynow.org/topics/gun_control
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Aftershock – other note was re DN's program themes. This one re gun control. Can't remember, but I think it was here at ENE when a number of us were sounding off about g.control following the terrible school massacre – that I offered an observation that I think applies. IMO there are a whole lot of people who lack exposure to intelligent gun ownership. They've got only what they see in the culture to guide them, and what they see horrifies them.
Personally I lean toward some control, but it's one of those topics I don't intend to take an active promotional role in, one way or the other. Kucinich was asked about it and he almost sounded irritated at the question. He briefly said g.control isn't the real issue because the real issue is something else, cultural.
Don't know how you feel about that (maybe you heard him) but I pretty much agree. We could have houses and apartments with closets full of guns and if we had a culture that better met people's legitimate human needs, the guns would be no problem. (Am mixing Kucinich and my thoughts here, I'm sure, but maybe a fair summary.) It's another topic that could keep keyboards running for hours!!
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you are correct Maggie123, in pointing to the lack of guidance on the part of many who'd be inclined to use guns; not all, but definitely quite a few. Mass media has played a great part in skewing perceptions. Going back to the early shoot'em-ups of our youth, to the snappy cop shows of today, media seems hell-bent on hiding the truth of the horrors of gunshot violence. I study media (have for a long time) and can attest to this lack of reality being portrayed in media. Annenburg University used to do some excellent research on this subject, before being co-opted into the NWO agenda.
Positions aside, no one in the right mind is against control over firearms. The issue gets down to what type of control. As corporate controlled governments have no interests in protecting the public from their avarice, we – the citizenry – would be foolish to hand-over our right to bear arms.
Kucinich is – and will always be – one of my favorite human beings. He's a genuine intellect. And he's correct about the issue of culture. I simply love how others attempt to diminish the character of 2nd-amendment proponents by claiming they're somehow encumbered with violent tendencies. Let them tell that to Gandhi, who excoriated the British for having disarmed the people of India; thus leaving his entire nation at the mercy of self-righteous imperialist…
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Facebook bans Gandhi quote as part of revisionist history purge
http://www.naturalnews.com/038484_Gandhi_quote_Facebook_censorship.html
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Aftershock – Interesting re Gandhi quote! Additional comments on this as a 'puzzle' here: http://www.shelfari.com/groups/18664/discussions/18814/When-did-Ghandi-profess-weapons-ownership-
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@Maggie123: the following is from one of the responses within your posted link:
[start extract]
"He was referring to the Indian Arms Act of 1878 (which was amended several times over the ensuing decades). This Act was, in practice, a total gun ban enacted to protect the British realm from an insurgency. By banning firearm possession for all but those authorized by the Realm they were able to all but do away with both military and private arms as almost no one was ever authorized.
Mr. Gandhi, as you correctly state, was a lifelong pacifist. But, he understood that in the extreme a society needs to have the capability to defend itself from invasion and oppressive governance. This is not contradictory. It's merely an acknowledgement of the existence of extremes. I have in person heard the Dalai Lama (another life long pacifist) state the same thing. In short, pacifists are not entirely blind to the possibility of a need to defend oneself from extraordinary violence. However, they do believe that in most cases where one man would choose to take up arms passive resistance would be the superior choice. In India that proved to be true. In the Germany of the 1940's it wasn't. However, one of the first things that Hitler did was ban all the guns.
As far as the "Right to bear arms" crowd is concerned; this quote is far from mis-attributed."
[end extract]
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Thanks, Aftershock, I saw that, and saw 'nay' statements, so decided not to come to a conclusion myself today.
Sigh … the bliss of putting off commitment on this issue. I went through all the arguments in Canada, joined the crowd of last minute 'conversions' who decided to 'go legal' and almost didn't get our 'official photos' for license in time. We got to keep our firearms, just had to admit to having them or risk consequences if discovered by any accident. I decided it wasn't the hill I wanted to die defending. I don't argue I'm right, just that I made the choice.
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problem is Maggie123, this issue's forever being tossed-up in reaction to the latest ongoing tragedy. Conspiracy theories aside, TPTB need only sit back and use the MSM to highlight any-and-every incident, to garner support for their objectives.
Got to thinking, yesterday, how Goldman-Sachs contracted protection services with the NYPD in preparation for the Occupy Wall Street demonstrations. While screaming cries of demonstrators are still echoing down those streets, unwitting 'progressives' completely miss where our masters are taking us. And as usual, the Right remains ever-true reactionary response to this threat against the people. Nothing but simplistic diatribes spew-forth from both sides of the political spectrum now; as the elite continue to instruct their eager dogs to load-up on ammunition…
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AS, sorry for correction. Gandhi was NOT a life long pacifist. His statement re: guns was made when he was an educated British upstart lawyer defending the rights of the underclass in South Africa. He came to pacifism and civil disobedience later in life after deciding that compassionate action was, in the end, stronger and more effective at deep cultural and social change than the use of violence. He, of course, died by being shot with a hand gun by a man to this day who declares that Gandhi's pacifism, growing in popularity, risked Pakistan's right to take back Kasmir by force from India. To deal unarmed with repressive regimes or criminals with nothing but a smile and compassion takes a level of courage few will ever be able to cultivate. Gandhians didn't want to merely protect themselves and have self rule, they wanted to rebuild a nation based on communal principles of fairness, justness and kindness. It is a vision that takes generations to commit to and complete. The lure of self protection at any cost, ergo hand guns to nuclear bombs, will always be the tension, the old paradigm that makes the bringing about of such fair societies nearly impossible, imo.
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not disputing your take, Vic, but Gandhi's success was not based on his non-violent strategy, but on two – less understood – factors: media exposure and waning British influence.
Had the media, in what was at that time, independence-leaning Indian and Left-leaning British publications not featured this ongoing struggle, the British military would've remained free to continue their abuse, unabated.
This resulting print-campaign of 'shaming', in combination with Britain's post WWII debt, eventually influenced the British government's adoption of a more conciliatory policy towards their 'holdings'. This 'shift in thinking', was the first inkling towards 'our' contemporary globalist system, where the 'slaves' become their own keepers.
One must also consider how pacifism plays into the objectives of the globalist agenda. The powerful think nothing of their carnage, yet quickly highlight human-rights abuses (which may or may not) perpetrated by those who conflict with their interests. It becomes a morality play for those who have the means to demonize their opponents. Nonviolent strategies are simultaneously upheld as the truly reasonable option to repression, by an oppressor who only continues their murder in the dark of night.
True freedom is not granted to us. It is a right that we are born too and must struggle to keep 'til the day we die…
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Interesting observation, Aftershock. Never noticed until you spoke up and have mused about it today. I've been focused for a long time on consequences of trans-generational poverty and marginalized subcultures so I think that's what I notice and appreciate. I do think the full gamut of struggles associated with long-term poverty and the experience of being marginalized, exists, and needs to be addressed, for *all* people. I think it was developing during freedom walks and with MLK's initiatives; and I thought it was revitalized some with Occupy's inclusiveness. (Well, took a while for Occupy to begin to be as inclusive as it first declared itself, but as a development – it looked promising to me.) I envisioned the two of us having long discussions that examined this topic … drawbacks to needing to type out wide-ranging thoughts, word for word – a keyboard life! But thanks for the nudge – a whole new package of thinking today for me!
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quick story Maggie123: back in the day, a close friend of mine (who happened to be 'black') accompanied me into the seedier side of town, to procure some 'goodies'. Long-story-short found a gun pressed to my temple with a 'local' demanding money. My friend volunteered his and was told by the 'kind' gunman, "I don't want your eff'n money…I WANT WHITIES!" This was – in more ways than one – a wake-up call for me. On the way home, my friend was unusually silent and pensive. It was but one watershed moment on my journey to knowing how and why we've gotten to where we are today…
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Thanks, Aftershock – When I read "friend volunteered" I 'hunched' how it developed before actually reading to sentence end. A truly shocking and frightening situation. A few yrs ago, 2 family members and 2 traveling companions were car-jacked & robbed at gunpoint during a Caribbean holiday – different dynamics and location, but similar economic conditions as 'back story'.
People determined to find "justice" by using deadly weapons against members of a group perceived as oppressors, are very real – obviously! History may explain & validate deep anger, but explanation is not excuse. One flash of time and you and your friend made it through – I can only try to imagine the shock for you.
So many questions and thoughts come to mind – chief among them – Thank Goodness you're available to help sort out our mess of a world!
In line with 'mess of a world' – I'm running "This is Hell" out of Evanston for Sat. morn radio – good interviews usually, (runs to noon unless bumped by sports event). Don't know if it would interest you: http://tunein.com/radio/This-is-Hell-p55983/.
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Available as podcast following although usually the podcast doesn't get posted till later, can be a day or occasionally two.
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I guess host is on holidays so they're running archived interviews today.
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M123, been looking for a good return movie, and thought of one of my all time favorites – The Bagdad Cafe. Hard to pick just one scene, though. Sorry. Here's some links. A trailer and an entire pirate youtube version. Ooopsie.
Trailer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUEyRwMHZyg
Movie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=og7vlRpZCVw
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Thanks, Vic – very much!! Also – hope to make it to FB today – still haven't shifted focus to catch up there!
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Maggie123, i got sooo frustrated trying to figure out fb the other night that i about went out to get a handgun and shoot the dang computer! Then, i calmed down and did a search and found many, many unhappy people, even geeks, complaining that while fb changed it's offerings, they failed to include a user friendly interface. So, i'm actually looking into other social sites that can link to fb for my family cast far and wide for ease of communication, but that can offer easier use, private chat rooms for long rambling off topic discussions, and more overall privacy. Just google " why is fb so complicated". But, maybe i'll see you there.
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But, don't let my inability to figure fb out dissuade you from a visit. That'd be great, btw
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actually Maggie123, I laughed in his face and asked if he thought we'd be stupid enough to come into his 'neighborhood' with real money in our pockets. He quickly weighed a murder charge against the fifteen bucks I held-out and walked away with the money. Today, the undercurrents of race hatred against Caucasians is far greater and likely to have yielded a different outcome.
Appreciate your confidence in my persons. And you're intuition is well placed. The goddess has much wisdom.
BTW. Listening to the station now. Good stuff!
My mom's family resides in Evanston…
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Aftershock – I'm so glad to learn the threat was at that level! One of my questions was "wonder what ever happened to that guy" and among probabilities were that his anger was so deep and so political that he had spun himself into a very dark place. Maybe he did anyway, with or without strong political views, maybe his use of politics was culturally and psychologically 'convenient'. Who knows and I didn't intend to make his particular situation a project.
I think an unfortunate but eventually necessary "reflection on cultural dynamics" may need to happen among us 'Anglo-backgrounded' folk. We're in a tough spot. None of us 'chose' to be 'born into' what amounts to 'racially rooted privilege', and there are umpteen tens of thousands of 'whites' who have scarcely fared well "in the system". For some of these, the situation is at least as bad – with the ironic 'worse' twist that Anglo cultures have a tendency to believe more strongly in "the individual can succeed regardless of context". A marginalized 'white' can't seek refuge – psychological or otherwise – by narratives of "racial subordination".
Or – at least I think this is a 'life circumstance' that could be examined.
Back to the gun-guy. Taught a little kid, true sweetheart, youngest of very troubled family. Came to school one fall and announced: "From now on I'm going to be bad". (I.e. follow patterns of his family). He was barely at "age of reason" in development.
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His family context was one of several generations and more of 'trouble'. A fair amount of prison time, lots of alcohol/drug and violence issues. Mom and siblings were struggling to emerge and shift direction, with considerable help from a pretty successful school-based wider community support service program. In our school there were remarkable gains made, but in some cases not.
The little kid followed through, more or less, on his plan. I retired not long after and moved so don't know how things turned out. But he was a sweetheart, and that part of him I'm sure is the part that gets lost in too many.
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@Maggie123: "…maybe his use of politics was culturally and psychologically 'convenient'. is the answer to why some choose to remain inert over the challenge of the unknown outcome of action. Hatred is an excellent way of justifying a personal sense of morality. Putting ones hand out in peaceful gesture is a true sign of strength.
Personally, I've yet to encounter a white racist. I've met whites who feel a strong sense of outrage at how their race is portrayed by 'others'. What most of us who study this antisocial phenomena have concluded is that race is used to keep us divided, while 'others' tirelessly exploit the perceived fissure of injustice.
During my travels (ongoing study) of humans, I've hung-out with hardcore black nationalists and so-called white supremacist, only to discover a common thread of values and desire for a sense of justice that's denied all. Ultimately, in all boils-down to what you've correctly observed to be 'life circumstance'. You are correct in how 'whites' are encumbered with the 'historic phenomena' of their heritage. I'm also impressed by your awareness that 'whites' are precluded from any excuse for personal failure. They're not only living with fallacy that they're of a privileged racial heritage but also condemned for failing to take advantage of something that doesn't exist. All while the truly privileged feed on our misunderstanding and ignorance…
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AfterSh – "What most of us who study …have concluded is that race is used to keep us divided, while 'others' tirelessly exploit the perceived fissure of injustice. … All while the truly privileged feed on our misunderstanding and ignorance…"
Divide and conquer – one of the best and enduring power-holding strategies it seems. Your post caused me to finally try again to locate history detail I heard long ago about laborers intentionally mixed into groups of individuals who didn't speak one another's languages. Prevented discussion of conditions. I thought I first heard it as a Roman strategy but it's older than that.
Then: "Divide & conquer: The phrase is attributed to Philip II, king of Macedon (382-336 BC), describing his policy toward the Greek city-states…." http://askville.amazon.com/history-phrase-divide-conquer/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=29595554.
Now: 2009 Harvard study (PDF, pg19): http://www.law.harvard.edu/programs/olin_center/papers/pdf/Spier_639_2.pdf.
"Employers’ divide and conquer strategies run the gamut. … Workers who do not repeatedly interact with each other will have trouble communicating with each other if their workplace does not otherwise provide opportunities for congregation. Our example of an employer hiring workers with different ethnic and linguistic backgrounds provides another illustration of this tactic: workers who do not speak the same language have difficulty communicating.37.
MUCH appreciate your posts!
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one of the reasons, Maggie123, we're witnessing the complete dismantling of our immigration policies. BTW, is the reason I despise Pacifica; how they've abandoned working class Americans in favor of globalist ideology. While they talk about worker rights, they lament the plight of those who undermine the ability of workers to negotiate from a position of strength!
It's all about fragmentation of culture. Those at the top can only achieve their goals when the commoner has nothing left to offer. It's all about renewal through destruction. Problem is, the people are given no choice in what that new world order will look like…
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Aftershock – re "undercurrents of race hatred … greater today". Wonder if the 'reading' comes through more in some situations and contexts than others. I wonder too about the phenomenon of anger that seems to me inevitable when an oppressed group 'wakes up'. (Some feminists were *really* angry, others looked more at 'socialization' processes with expectation guys would 'come around'.)
It's been my observation that those in position of relative privilege can't easily 'wrap their heads around' why a subjugated group would feel anger. Meanwhile, with a fair amount of validity, the subjugated group may focus so intensely on the 'group' experience that they can't see the humanity within individuals belonging to the 'privilege' group.
IMO – the 'loss' coming from group v. group focus is humanity itself. At same time, to some extent, 'privileged' group needs to be honest that "up to now" it has, even by accident of history, helped sustain the 'racial hierarchy'. IMO the whole 'ball of wax' just needs to be examined for what it is, with intent that we (all humanity) find our way past/through it.
As I've said – nothing 'practical' about my 'vision'! I'm fond of possibility rather than probability!
Found this 'Arrested Justice' vid on YT yesterday. This is #7. I watched from 1-9. #7 is sort of a summary of key activities. I understand reason for 'selected group' focus, but thought underlying attitudes were wider in scope.
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Hmm … guess it needs a link! http://youtu.be/q_F9iqEXre4. ('Arrested Justice…').
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It's as old as cave man..fear..the hatred of those living on the other side of the hill.
As civilization declines…there is less emphasis on peace among the races.
As if ..all our blood does not run red.
As if.. the sun does not shine down upon our heads..the same…one and all.
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there was once great excitement at the prospect of visiting with our neighbors. Then we were told they were somehow different and unworthy of our respect. The walls encircled fields of grain, fertilized with the bones of our new-found 'enemies'…and loved ones. Endless tears blinding the peace of distant past…
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have to say Maggie123, you're one of the truly intelligent of this species. I've long been impressed by your fearless analysis of these issues.
The solution to your questions will not be found through the discovery of our common interests. It's obvious we're all one. But if you're interested in whether we'll progress as a species, such solution can only be found through the analysis of who benefits from these social schisms. Pull back the curtain and look upon who's been feeding the poison of race-based inequities to us all. Ask how they've benefited in the dissolution of our social fabric. Ask if what they put into practice is equivalent to what they'd offer as solution. Simply ask if they've been true to anything…
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Aftershock – you are so right that 'follow the money' (or power or other benefit) is critical to knowing how power dynamics stand. I'm generally pretty aware but am also routinely in center of society that does not examine what it means by "we humans all have deep common interests, (wished, desires, potential, …)". So I tend to hang out in the "Look at our shared humanity" level. My hope is that I can nudge some of my surrounding folks to begin to question their assumptions.
Most are either fully 'of the culture' and successful at that, or are less successful and believe "conditions are what they are, there's nothing to question, the task is to succeed by playing the game".
I do mention 'top power players' (individuals, groups, institutions, historical patterns) to them along the way. They often smile and change the subject. One of their 'rules' is "no negativity" and my challenges are considered of the "party pooping" type.
More sighing!
But ENE exchanges give renewed energy, and validating encouragement, to keep me beating my drum, pressing my points!
I sure hope you and/or Vic at least might be doing some publishable writing on some of what comes up here. Not sure how many 'generalist' analyses are coming to public attention. We need a few books and some people giving book-talks to help people connect dots local to global. (IMO).
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strange you should suggest writing Maggie123, as I was musing how invaluable yours is. You seem well tempered, yet far ranging in how you handle issues.
Quick aside: now on my second bowl of Miso soup. I haven't had any in a long time. Then I spotted a batch of organic Barley-Miso paste in Whole Foods that's not from Japan. Next stop was for some shallots and white asparagus spears. I simmered the shallots and asparagus in triple-filtered water, at low temperature for an hour, then turned the heat off before mixing-in the Miso paste. (Never boil Miso paste as it's a live-cultured food.) The cells in my body are now singing in harmony…
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AS, your efforts to find commonality really is the key to the whole thing. Whether we shake off race, class, gender, or religious privilege with great vigor or simply make every effort at finding what links us all, we get there in the end to a safer, more humane world. So, i am grateful for you and for the fact that you will always keep questioning, expanding yourself, and seeking fairness.
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thank you much Vic. It really is what I'm about: protecting all, with no preconceived idea as to who deserves such aid…
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Aftershock, yes you do
Which is why i took advantage of your and Maggie123's chat to broaden the conversation a little. So, thanks, for starting this latest deep discussion you 2.
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Btw, Aftershock or Maggie123, if you ever want to go deeper down the rabbit hole and take the whole damn issue of White privilege apart piece by piece and see how it compares to your own thinking and experiences, i really recommend Gregory Mengel's blog. He is such a careful thinker and essentially after the same things we are.
http://cosmologyofwhiteness.blogspot.com/2011/04/whiteness-and-white-privilege-paradigm.html
Of course, being multiracial and multicultural, this is an issue dear and near to me despite how passable i am as White. And, as a lesbian, of course, the power and privilege differentials between gays and straights is about as close as the Moon to the Earth and back despite the occasional gay person on TV for comic relief. Privilege means being considered the norm while lacking privilege means being measured by it at all times save in the privacy of your own home. Of course, then internalized oppression does get dragged in thru the door, but … It is hard for those who already are considered the norm to grasp this insight given that it may best be possible to gain it thru experience. Yet, with much thought and difficult discussion and practice, (my thanks to all given gratefully on my part), some people do breakthrough the paradigm to see to the other side.
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M123, i think your grasp of privilege is astute. Aftershock, if i may add my take – it takes profound personal reflection and insight to recognize when we have privilege and are using it to our advantage, for all the while, it is socially taught to be a myth in our socalled post-colonial world of socalled racial equality. Few Whites, because of that ancestral privilege, will ever know the experience of being a person of color in a Europeanized/Americanized colony nor the experience of trying to rebuild your country after the Whites finished their business there. If ever there was a NWO, masters, disempowerment, divide and conquer, it was European colonialism the likes of which will not be seen again i hope. It was called Manifest Destiny and is still alive today. It was one thing for Whites to make this happen to others. But, now it is happening more and more to Whites, too, as resources become scarce and control over one's safety and future seemingly more impossible. It is up to us to either abandon that path or carry it on. But, until we can see the inherent advantage in being a member of a dominate class and, then, reject that privilege, change will be at a very slow creep.
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Vic and Aftershock – being female in a male-dominated culture (and appreciating how far back in time the practices go) is a great teacher, wouldn't you say?
Also being a 'sensitive type' guy has been no picnic in many cultures, and there are other ways to happen to be of the White race but experience marginalization also.
I know that people of non-White heritage find the same marginalizing experiences, with race added, and probably the most 'glaring' of all, but within practices of those cultures is also much male domination.
Maybe 'domination' (hierarchy for no good reason but accumulation and holding of power and status) is another 'key focus' to be explored.
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M123, agreed. There are many types of privilege and repression and some will have more than others depending upon their societies, their family of origin, their inherited abilities and traits. Ultimately, who has the privilege becomes a shell game in one sense because it can change and shift and a deeper force is at play. I think that this is what Aftershock is alluding to in his own way. But, i think many actually mistake one for the other. For me, privilege is born from something, and that parent of elitism, whatever the elitism, is the culprit. Letting go of privilege, or for some, learning to do some good with it (the argument of the upper class), is a first step in tracing privilege back to it's roots, back to the tree. That is what i believe Gandhi understood. He couldn't shoot his way through. He had to go to the root, let go of anything that could bind him to collude with repression or elitism (thus the fasting and the making of his own garments given that Britain controlled the textiles industry and thus the economy of India). Once at the root, he knew he couldn't chop the tree down because it would just put up more shoots. So, he had to sit there and say to the elite – I will make things difficult for you. I will pester you, or my students will pester you until you come and speak with me at the root of this tree. He believed the British capable of seeing their own oppressive acts. Enough did to make self rule possible.
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I would have to differ on this one Vic. The illusive promise of privilege has been sold to the masses from time immemorial. Such deception is not exclusive to Caucasians; only obvious at this time in history. The hierarchy of control is maintained through the dispensation of privilege and balanced by the threat of its retraction.
I discovered in my experience as a privileged 'white', racial integrity is only tolerated by the 'repressed'. Never mind that atrocities have been (and continue to be) perpetrated throughout history by every 'race'. What's important is that I be convinced of my original sin; that endless 'reparations' be secured against the my heritage.
Hence, I cannot tarry-about, as prior obligations afford little time for reflection…work awaits…
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AS, no doubt i don't personally feel oppressed or even stymied by making things fairer for everyone, which means my giving up some things so that others can have them instead. I would not want to be in the world any differently than with a constant mindfulness of such. "Reparations" is really a painful issue for many, i know, though i've never seen them be "endless". But, some take advantage of "reparations" and the creating of fairer societies, yet, in my experience, these are few and perhaps quite vocal. But, we aren't actually disagreeing on everything and i think, we are seeing the issue from a little different angle. Of course people do all sorts of horrible things with or without privilege. That is a completely separate issue for me. Privileged people can be very thoughtful and generous. The elite believe they deserve more privilege because they will be kinder, fairer, and less repressive, or so the theory goes, thus, there should always be an elite to make the more difficult decisions. I disagree with them. Privilege can be very difficult to see because it is often taken for granted and generational, if not in eons, by those who have it. It's mechanism in maintaining established order is not insignificant imo. Isn't a main premise of the argument there is a NWO elite currently orchestrating power plays and manipulations that can effect the entire world based upon the seen and unseen power of privilege, and perhaps, it's abuse? Thx for chatting.
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$150 Billion in Civil Service Pension Funds to be Suspended Monday as US Government Gears up for Potential Civil Unrest in August
http://theintelhub.com/2012/12/28/150-billion-in-civil-service-pension-funds-suspended-as-us-government-gears-up-for-civil-unrest-in-august/
Hopefully..this is spoof..too.
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"Al Qaeda Disbands; Says Job of Destroying U.S. Economy Now in Congress’s Hands."
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/2012/12/al-qaeda-disbands-says-job-of-destroying-us-economy-now-in-congress-hands.html
Definitely a spoof, but from my perch outside the US, it looks quite real. Are you folks sure you know what you're doing, being masters of the universe and all?
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believe me. They know exactly what they're doing. The mistake was in thinking they somehow didn't…
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Oliver Stone to RT: ‘US has become an Orwellian state’
http://rt.com/news/oliver-stone-us-orwellian-022/
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Nov.5 2012..
Police militarization in Colorado Cops in fatigues toting automatic weapons disperse
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZSp4gOq1tw
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Actual U. S. Army Regulations For Managing Concentration Camps
http://targetfreedom.com/cfr/actual-u-s-army-regulations-for-managing-concentration-camps/
Orwellian..indeed.
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oooh..oohh..let me stoke the gun control debate…
Personal story..I had a stalker once.
I was a new widow.
He followed me to a concert..he almost was beaten up by my biker friends…(not good)
He found out where I lived…I was pleasant once or even twice.
I compulsion in his eyes.
The next time he showed up at the house ..I met him at the door armed.
Never heard from the guy again.
I saved my own life..
I believe in weapons for self-defense.
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unfortunately Heart, there are way too many woman who are not alive today, that would love to have had a chance agree with you…
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Yes Heart and Shock, self defense is a valuable prize for women. The rape and murder of women by fruitcake men is the height of violent crime. A woman with a gun is, on paper, better protected.
One woman here in Oz recently disappeared, only to be found dead days later, the victim of a father of three or more children. Beyond disgraceful, that man deserves to lose more then everything. If the woman was armed, the story may have been different, ideally he would have been the dead one.
And should the guberment turn against the people of Oz, we are friggin defenseless thanks to John Howard, the prime minister at the time who changed the law. He went onto support Bush and the illegal war of Iraq based on the lies of WMDs. Howard is an utter dog.
Some weapons could be banned. But the principal of the citizens right to be armed against the government should not be lost.
As aftershock reminds us, the recent USA guberments have shown major disdain to the common people, I know I would trust them (well, I don't trust them, I will never venture back into the USA again in my life).
Good luck people, do try to retain the right to bear arms. Although they can be a monster, and I don't own one, they're seem to essential.
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'I know I would NOT trust them' -typo error. Just woke up. My excuse
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as usual, excellent thoughts richard…
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I do own but know myself well enough to know I'm so loathe to consider them for self-defense that I've spent some time thinking of alternatives. A can of spray oven-cleaner has had appeal to me for a close range event although I think here in the States I can legally get good bear spray.
In a pinch, I can quickly develop 'an attitude' that's pretty firm. Heart, I can 'feel' that same firmness in your story and am glad, once it was clear an 'attitude' was necessary, that you stood your ground.
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I'm a bit worried for you Maggie since your previous post about selfdefence, but i didden't dare to say something then.
Now i do , pls no offence , but i think you are way to kind to reach your psychopatic side in time , the distance between that and the level of emphaty where you "live" , is to wide for an untrained or unexperienced person to cross in the blink of an eye imho.
You can not defend in a possible lethal situation if you can not disconnect from the urge to save your attacker (unless you are really really reaaally good at that) .
Instinct to survive is in essence selfischness like Nature ment it to be .
In my bartender day's i have seen and participated in my part of street slapping/keeping order . The people like i just described all went tru a very surprised facial expression before the hurt reaches the brain and i had to jump in to prevent a massacre.
Hopefully i'm mistaken and it turns out you are the person with an attitude their mother's warned them about
Just so you know Maggie , maybe it can help you calculating some variables while planning.
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Eventually, as an adult, I spent about a year working with a friend who'd trained in kung-fu. I didn't develop skills to any useful level but did develop a 'center of intent' that changed my attitude. I was much more sharply aware of surroundings, strategies, etc. Also I understood range of human motivations better than I once did and could asses risk more realistically (or so I like to think). I can 'see' the boyscout leader and can 'see' his face as he realized his mistake. Familiar enough that it was very real to read of it.
I haven't a clue what I'd really do. I'd have to rely on spontaneous 'center of intent' if anything comes up, but happily don't anticipate it. You're correct – I've a strong drive to resolve threat in a way that 'heals', which could be my undoing – so be it.
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I've often thought of pub brawls as an instructive micro-version of larger geopolitical events. I've observed a few develop. I've also watched bantam roosters square off in the farmyard. At one level, these are all the same to me – the roosters, theoretically, are the only creatures who can rightly claim to be ruled by hormones.
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Yeah drunk people , don't underestimate drunk people in that regard too .. good comparison
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Puffed out chests and holding arms (wings) out away from body … from the time I first I saw the similarity I've not been able to forget it!
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M123, forgive me for my following assumptions in order to connect you with information that you may not already have outside you to go with all the information that you have within you – you learned that "center of intent" is a very useful defense in and of itself – how to not give in to your own fear or malice nor the fear or malice of another, to not let these dictate your reaction, your choices. A Judo self defense truism – "if you find yourself in a fight, then you have already made 3 mistakes". You are already well beyond the paradigm of either/or and no need to abandon all your hard work to return to such limited options. But, having already made that choice, you also know that your alternatives must be mindfully developed. Btw, your "energy" defenses are astounding.
Founder of Akido – a way of self defense based on the physics of attraction and creation and not on repulsion or destruction. This little man, Morihei Ueshiba, was undefeated. He could throw you across the room with a simple gesture. He could kill you with a single touch should he choose.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDTHwCG3Epc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDTHwCG3Epc
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It is important that the understanding of remaining outside a fight should not be taken as "victim blaming", though, i think gun advocates are trying to say that women are safer with guns because they are essentially walking victims. This Judo truism is based on developing situational awareness, heightened intuitiveness, and the premise that non-confrontation may often be the wiser route to take – disable your adversary in order to escape, not to kill or maim. These are all steps of self defense. And, like all things, even these have limits – even the wary mouse can become a meal – which, at this point, is where technique to kick ass comes in handy. Many women develop this mindfulness to survive. Many women have this intuition constantly eroded – "you can trust me", "i do this because i love you", "only bad women get raped", etc., the concept of "taught victimization" – in order to make them easier victims. I appreciate the intended empowerment of women that gun advocates hope to address, but, in the end, someone always carries a bigger gun. So, it is not just women who need to learn to defend themselves. It is societies that need to stop accepting the victimization of half the population as "natural, inevitable and desirable".
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Yes, Vic, when women and men are using every waking moment to attempt to survive economically in this world…we should all go find a very expensive Akido class and be the ultimate 'cage fighter', and I am so glad you have this luxury. Unfortunately most people don't. Pepper spray is a joke. So many psychpaths spray it weekly in their own eyes so that it doesn't even phase them. Some people are 'animals', in the sense they know that exposing one's self to adverse environmental factors breeds immunity.
You and anyone else's arguments against 'Guns' in a culture are specious and easily shown to be a liberalistic lie, that is easily shown to be the height of haughtiness and disconnect from the world you presently live in.
It's funny as well since all French 'Libertines' all carried a hidden weapon because their own hedonistic lifestyles often landed them in very seedy quarters.
It's great while the veneer of civilization endures, and you can carry on such fatous conversations, but when SHTF, and that is coming soon due to Obama's recent actions worlwide; then honestly, I wonder what your take will be on this issue then? When hoardes of angry, hungry, and voracious animals comes to your home?
How dedicated will you be then? Will you sit in your home, cross-legged and non-violently saying "No, you cannot take all my food, my possessions."
I think not….
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Gosh, Frox, need time i'm looking for someone to spell out their every fear and insecurity, i'll know who to ask. You did great!
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Btw, Frox, i would never have suggested that you take up akido. You've always sounded pretty set that you have life and its challenges and what to do about them all figured out already. But, some of the rest of us have work to do and questions to answer and new things to try and maybe learning new ways to handle things. Maggie123 is openly searching and genuinely questioning. The links were expressly stated as for M123 because she would enjoy them. I'm not forcing you to give up your guns. Why be so reactive and take the explorations of others who are looking into more pacific ways to handle conflict and threat so personally to yourself?
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Oops. forgot, Frox, i don't actually have the money for akido either and wasn't advocating people go and spend their hard earned money on it. I am just providing information about alternatives. But, should people WANT to go and take akido classes, it would cost about the price of a good reliable hand gun to take enough classes to defend yourself with. There is no cage fighting in akido and in fact, there is very little actual fighting. It's not based on resistance against, but, techniques that let a person use the strength of their adversary against them. So, for 300 bucks, you can have a hand gun and a little ammo, then take very expensive classes in how to use it, then lock it in a very expensive box, or tucked in a drawer or display it above your fireplace. Or, you can learn akido, self empowerment, learn techniques that both defend you and help to heal yourself from injury and illness, wear really spiffy training clothes if you so choose and have the extra cash, or just enjoy the sense of personal empowerment and peace that comes with gaining skill and ability to take care of yourself and those you love without losing focus, without escalating a potentially violent situation, and without been either driven by or paralyzed by fear. There are also many good basic street fighting classes taught freely for women and kids by most counties in the US based on injuring an assailant enough to get away and try for safety, or to simply make the best choice one can.
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Bear Spray, M123. Far more accurate and you're more likely to use it.
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Bear spray?..do to the close contact of these type of assaults..pepper spray ..is not going to do it.
PS..I doubt the stuff would work on a bear.
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Pepper spray is mostly a deterrent..while giving time to beat them down.
Police Use Pepper Spray on Demonstrators at ‘Occupy Wall Street’ Protest
http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/09/26/police-use-pepper-spray-on-demonstrators-at-occupy-wall-street-protest/#ixzz2GXl3G4nQ
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PS..Oh..the cops love pepper spray..
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=cops+use++pepper+spray&qpvt=cops+use++pepper+spray&FORM=IGRE
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Why Do Police Officers Use Pepper Spray?
By Brandon Keim11.
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/11/pepper-spray-psychology/
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My 'oven cleaner' idea as protection against human was in Canada where I think defensive sprays of various kinds were pretty restricted but actually can't remember. I wanted a 'close quarters' remedy, and still, given availability and need, would use it. Your post generally sent me into 'review' mode of various incidents back in time. I found myself quite annoyed at some 'guy' assumptions. Vic's observations in this discussion re gender power issues fit with mine. We've seen improvements, IMO, but we're certainly 'not there yet'.
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uhhh..sure maggie..they make holsters for oven spray?
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At close range ..getting bear spray on one's self is almost a given..
What if one is blinded..the essential 'escape' becomes harder.
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In your purse?..is not a good place for a gun..the first thing knocked away is the purse..lol..
Oven cleaner is lye..ya know..magggie..lol
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R, most women in the US who use a gun against their attacker, who is not a "fruitcake" but their lover and an average joe, go to prison. Domestic violence is the fifth leading cause of death for women worldwide. Women would be having to shoot a lot of men.
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Hi Vic .
Sometimes i think the masculine hatred for the concept of equallity regarding females runs as deep or deeper then racisme in some places .
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correction ; a Lot of places ! The global workfloor being the most obvious .
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DID, a study which i can't find a link to now – before the internet. Stanford college students in a sociology class mid 70's. Males and females asked to anonymously write down what they most fear in the other. Response – males almost entirely responded that what they feared the most about women was that women would ridicule them. Females overwhelming responded that what they feared most about men was that men would kill them. Such is the usually "unexpressed" power differential within which women live.
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I've traveled in countries that steal children for ransom.
I'm firm about defense of family as well.
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PS.Perhaps..that was not clear..in some countries..criminal elements steal children for ransom.
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Heart – child trafficking for assorted gains is yet another of this world's woes. I appreciate the 'off-topic' forum's discussions because I'm reminded of 'corners of concern' that I don't want to overlook. Child trafficking is a heart-breaking one.
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And what of 'privateer child trafficking'?
Dyncorp exposed for the trafficking of Women and Children
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkphmRFogmc
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Thanks for link, Heart – This stuff needs to be uncovered and it just keeps coming like there's no end!
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Heart – Wow on video! Cynthia McKinney shows the balance I think we (humanity) need to discover in ourselves: 'masculine principle' (willing to face down injustice) AND 'feminine principle' (focus on nurturing life) within a single individual. That's where she's coming from – at same time, the others who speak – when I think about it – seem to be coming from neither!
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DID, yes. I agree. It is so deep that it is thought to be naturally occurring, all the while it takes purposefully teaching it to new generations again and again in order to maintain it as the "natural order" of things that we can only do little about to mitigate. The same happens to less aggressive males, too. It's like the socializing of loss and privatizing profit meme. Teach males to devalue the feminine as equal to the masculine, teach males to value extreme maleness above all femaleness, teach females to think less of themselves, and then hold females and non-aggressive males accountable for their victimization, AND, allow only individual solutions – go buy a gun – and not larger social solutions – teach equality and respect, consider the harming of females as abominable, see feminine attributes as beyond "attractive qualities" and as essential to a balanced society. The rich say – if you want to get ahead, be more like us. Males say – if you don't want to be a victim, be more like us. I don't want to be like the rich. I don't want to be more aggressive. There are alternatives. But, only if we create them.
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Now that you make me think of it…I could eventually understand how in a time before fire where the enviroment for a litle family hunting/gathering could sometimes demand something like smooth coördination from the family as a whole for survival , almost like a operation with a command chain sort of speak . I mean the hunters in the field waving fingers and nodding to direct the child-carers/gatherers (different expertise and power, like killing bigger prey ), . If this increasing of the suvival rate took place often enough during a long time enough in our history , i can imaging both a culture and maybe even some small adaptation in the instinct-department to emerge about dominant male role-play.
The males did not complain , and life aka survivalrate said it was the right thing to do back in the pristine paradise day's , before the controlled use of fire.
Over time it got overcultivated and corrupted the males mind i think, when no longer needed, it became difficult to let go. Honor is known to be often called as an autority upon for help as an excuse in a twisted discussion that should not exist.
But we all know it became about sex and domination power .
Now that instinct , IF any did develop , can not be that strong or it would be impossible to think about critically , or the fluctuations of woman rights between lots of cultures and subcultures would not be so outspoken.
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So , a mutated echo from a culture older then the controled use of fire , most definetly outdated as hell , often cultivated for the wrong reason (sex an power), reinforcing it like a semi-perpetual machine, keeps dividing us ,
because it is no longer needed and therefore a harmfull dynamic.
It is unjust .
Males still don't complain .
Are there females CEO's in Tepco ?
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DID, well put and asked. IMHO, some women who play the game can always rise to power, as can members from any less powerful group. Rising is one way to get power. In the US, we see this as the American Dream and what "makes the country great". But, letting people into the group or kicking them back out again is where the real power lies. That is the hidden power, the social group power. This is slower to change. Any and all of us here on enenews know how disempowering this one can feel to some degree. But, women often collude to get access to power through another, and this is often hidden behind deferring. The old adage – men give love to get sex and women give sex to get love. But women also give sex to get some semblance of power through a partner. That's how it's set up. That's the issue, ultimately. Changing this system.
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DID, Vic, Heart, others – re gender discussion: beliefs, history, etc. There's so much of value and interest for me in this discussion!
In search to validate aspects of myself that might have been considered 'masculine' while also appreciating very much aspects of myself that were clearly 'feminine', I happened years ago to read "Androgyny" by June Singer. Not a long book 300 pgs max, maybe less as I recall. I'd never studied Jungian ideas, had been content to pick up tidbits from discussions. Singer was a Jungian analyst, died in 2004. (More of her to explore just now found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_SingerJ).
In "Androgyny" she made clear the 'animus/anima' (male/female attributes) within each person. Obviously these are likely to be 'stronger/deeper' based on actual gender – but both are present in each person.
Singer's book was ideal for me as I'd always had both kinds of attributes 'pretty close to surface'. "Masculine" doesn't need to mean "conquering or aggressive" IMO, but can mean "strength to face down injustice". (The 'firmness' – I and Heart mentioned.) "Feminine" does not need to be 'submissive' but more like 'attention to nurturing life and land'. Obviously we can find countless examples of each of these in gals and guys we know.
Re 'masculine principle' found in women in times past: http://www.csen.org/WomenWarriors/Statuses_Women_Warriors.html.
Uncovering, developing, both in each is key, IMO…
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What I know..about feminism is rather limited to personal experience.
I was the first child..of a thoughtful and learned man…and an equally thoughtful and very effeminate mother.
I was taught to be a 'lady' as it was called back then. And through the years I have been respected as such.
My father..taught me to think deeply and on my feet.
I don't find anything…genderish about this.
I live in a harsh part of the country where women were/are widowed do to occupational accidents ..etc.
So.. we "run our own ranch"…and look 'girly cool' on Saturday night.
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In my life..there has been little struggle..in concerns to man v. woman.
And I am seldom inclined to speak about it.
But..I will say this..the repression of what is considered to be the feminine aspects of the human composite..has never been more evident.
Without this aspect..
The Earth will never have the chance to be so loved.
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Many agree with you, Heart – me included, of course but legions of thinkers with life-careers asking 'what allows the individual and all humanity to thrive' (To prosper in health, interest, participation, etc.)
I just now ran a browser search for 'the world needs the feminine principle'. Lots of 'hits'. Here's one: http://www.fastcoexist.com/1679707/why-the-world-needs-a-more-feminine-version-of-success. Article agrees with you – we change or we lose.
I don't agree 100% with how the article makes its case but agree that cooperation and collaboration are largely missing and aggressive competition is way out of balance.
Cooperation and collaboration 'capacity' is found in both genders. (The article IMO misses this important point. Some confuse feminine/masculine *principle* with 'not being male/female enough' and feel threatened – *principle* is a key word.)
One of my favorite go-to sources for research on advantages to *everyone* when aggressive competition is downplayed is Alfie Kohn (http://www.alfiekohn.org/index.php).
As an educator – I watched in delighted amazement as both boys and girls grew in personal confidence and mutual respect of one another's interests and skills when classroom practices were aimed at increasing learning through cooperation while downplaying 'win/lose' competition. There have *always* been individual guys and gals who've had 'masculine/feminine' in balance – but broad culture promotes 'dog eat dog'. H.N.Year!
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M123 and HotR – beautiful posts so well said, and both of you probably lived in communities that required broader personal development of skills and not so limited to sex or gender. And, Heart, i so agree that the repression of the feminine has never been so evident in, at least, modern history. The Earth is often thought as female, and there are many studies showing lots of correlations of how well cultures embraced the female or didn't and which was, then, also evident in how well they respected and lived harmoniously with their surrounding environments and neighbors. The more the female was considered equal to the male, not the same qualities, but held in equal value and esteem, then the healthier the environment.
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Am thinking, Heart – 'masculine/feminine principle' is a mouthful as well as not very common language. 'Protector/nurturer principle' might be better.
Easy to watch individuals of either gender and find both behaviors present depending on circumstance. Often the two behaviors are blended – ranch example (in my experience) is guy carrying calf newborn in freezing or cold/weather to warm-up place (in my experience – that means the kitchen!)
The urge to nurture and also to protect are present in the one action. That's also why I liked your link to Cynthia McKinney's stand against Rumsfeld at the hearing – she's acting out of the two principles at once (compassion and 'warrior'). I think it was this link: http://youtu.be/Px1t1-a9uxk. (Cynthia McKinney asks hard questions).
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(edit correction – 'cold/wet weather'). BTW – it seems to me the McKinney video also shows absence of *either* principle – again – principle as key word, meaning a deep and abiding universal value.
Rumsfeld (guy) and Myers (gal) are operating strictly from "win/lose" protection of self and "power of the group I belong to" at all costs. Even if the group's behavior is corrupted to the core. Neither Rumsfeld or Myer is willing to shift to principled 'compassion/protect' mode – not even a hint.
(This, even though it's my belief each, as an infant, was fully capable to develop compassion/protect. We 'arrive' with the principles ready to develop. We 'learn' to shut them down, IMO. Each R and M may show it other times – probably with family or 'personal tribe' members, seldom toward 'humanity at large'.)
The contrast between where McKinney is coming from and where Rumsfeld and Myers are coming from is so clear that a line could be drawn between them, IMO.
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DID, all insightful musings? May i suggest a new angle on some popularly held beliefs? Eating meat is relatively new to humans and probably didn't occur until after fire was harnessed? Humans were likely far more passive, collecting their food as can be seen by our teeth – soft vegetation chewers – and the length of our digestive tracts – long for fermenting vegetation compared to, say, a dog, short for a mix of meat and veggies. Raw meat in a long digestive tract tends to take too long to extract nutrition and will ferment and make the eater ill. We call it hunter/gathers and not gather/hunters because the male was thought to be the hunter and hunting was thought to be the primary and most important food contribution to the group. In fact, most meat was probably eaten on site of the kill and not brought back to the group. The science that developed the popular theory of human evolution was sexist and viewed everything from that lens.
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So, imo DID, you and Maggie123 are closer to the mark of what it can be to be human, and see this current rendition as an aberration against our better selves. We are on a trajectory of destruction and we must recreate the abilities within ourselves and our societies to find power in peace, in loving, in seeking understanding and working out agreement. It is not above (divine) or outside (unnatural) our natures. Is it, in fact, probably how we survived this long at all. Perhaps, like your musings, something happened such as a long ice age and resource scarcity was a game changer and we donned roles for survival, roles that no longer work so good.
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Indeed Vic , just some hypothetical thinking/musing about one of the many interwoven levels of accepted powerabuse thats clearly wrong but
persistant within humankinds today's and yesterday's cultural/social fabrics/tissue . But i never gave it so much tought before untill your comment , except for being actively no participant in it as far i'm aware . Thx for the insights .
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Vic – "so deep that it is thought to be naturally occurring" – exactly so! Also so valuable are the remarks you make following that opening – and in your closing: "I don't want to be like the rich. I don't want to be more aggressive. There are alternatives. But, only if we create them."
IMO (not unique to my thinking) the capacity to create alternatives is within us. But to discover the capacity, we have to shed so much that we take as "irrefutable" about who we are. We've spent so many thousands of years teaching one another how to conquer adverse conditions that we've come to believe aggression and piling up a private or tribal stash of bananas is ultimately 'our only truth'!
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yeah Vic, I see that side too. This is all very grey, nothing is black and white as usual.
i'd say the perception is that guns deaths in the USA are out of proportion with the rest of the world. so on that take, reducing availability makes sense.
and yes, women would end up in jail, even though it was self-defence.
i thought of another case here in sydney back in the 80s. if she had been armed, it may have helped, but they were four attackers who knew no mercy. once they over powered her, they would have soon had a gun in their hands as well. the crime was horribly barbaric, even without a gun.
i saw your fear-scale comment as well. i've no doubt that it's true. little old me has no answer.
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richard, Hollywood created a myth about guns so loads of people went out and bought them. I think that few legal gun owners completely understand all the ramifications of actually shooting someone with it like an attacker, let alone well armed US forces. In reality, very few people actually had guns or knew how to use them until the 1950's after WWII. A market got created as the economy also became driven by consumerism. People traded with hunters for meat, not went out and shot something. Arming against governments was rooted in fighting the British, then the Indians, then the slaves, then the Mexicans, oh and the French, and then the…. I just want people to ask the questions – do i want a gun or does a company want me to buy one? If i buy a gun, will i use it wisely and get training to remain calm? The ultimate gun so far is the nuclear bomb. Doesn't a nation have the right to defend itself? Is what is true for me also true for the nation? When is a weapon too big? Can i be antinuclear and also pro gun? When is the technology of a weapon too dangerous for everyone else? Are there other ways to be safe?
Yeah, that fear scale thing blew my mind when i read the study.
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Can a person be anti-nuclear and pro-gun?
Yes….nuclear power is clearly a detriment to the innocent masses.
A gun protects lives on a personal level.
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and if you plan to oppose nuclear power technologies, Vic, you'd be well advised to preserve your right to bear arms. If you doubt this, checkout how 'big' the anti-nuke movement is in China or North Korea; which, not so coincidentally, have the most stringent bans against citizens right to bear arms.
And while we're about the nonsense of thinking pacifism is attainable in a violent universe, let's reverse your question and ask if there are – any – limits to pacifism? Do I have the right to forcefully impede the actions of a rapist, or must I wait until they're finished with their destructive act? Would you suggest a discourse in ethics? Perhaps you'd sanction the use of a small switching branch; something my mother would chase us kids about with, when we got out of hand. If that doesn't produce the 'desired' results, could I move on to the use of a sharp object? I'd gladly limit my effort to a broad-sided axe, if that kept me in good standing with other like-minded environmentalist…
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"I think that few legal gun owners completely understand all the ramifications of actually shooting someone with it like an attacker."
I beg to differ here…
I think many many legal gun owners know the ramification of shooting someone.
Self defense is what is is.
Here we have a saying.."It is better to be judged by 12 than buried by 6."
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it pretty much boils down to 'feel good' politics, for the 'anti-gun' crowd. We're being quietly surrounded by drooling corporate fascist, and the 'world can be a beautiful place' crowd is asking that we all close our eyes and wish for Tinkerbell's resurrection.
As a student of history, I'd trust the average commoner with my life before I'd ever trust those who make a living off-of death and destruction.
Of course I'd love to live in a rational – non-violent – world! Who – in their right mind – wouldn't?! I just can't forget the recent treatment of those within the OWS movement, who peacefully demonstrated against the avarice of the corporate elite. And the only reason they didn't outright start shooting into the crowds is solely due to the cameras they no longer have exclusive control over. The 'nets completely changed the dynamic of control. They're working hard and fast to rest this medium from our hands, but until then, I'm speaking truth to power.
Recall how they beat and maced everyone, from returning vets to students. They want nothing more than to put chains around our necks. And irrespective of the good will of some within the anti-gun crowd, those who work towards the transfer of such power into the hands of the elite are nothing less than traitors to the struggle for human rights.
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Brilliant..AfterShock.
This is one of the basic problems with humanity at the present time.
Basic human values and needs are volleyed back and forth for political position.
The game rigged by and for the behalf of the elite.
This is subjugation of the masses.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/subjugate
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thank you Heart. Just finished watching a video that ForwardAssist recommended (see below). All of this guys arguments were spot-on. I particularly loved his reference to David and Goliath.
There's an old Chinese proverb that every anti-gun proponent should heed, "Be careful what you wish for…you just might get it."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdkiLC06Nso
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you'll love this Heart…
Russian Press Pravda Message to Americans: Do not give up your guns
http://www.thelonestarwatchdog.com/2012/12/29/the-russian-press-pravda-message-to-americans-do-not-give-up-your-guns/
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and this one's also brilliant…
Preppers, Patriots and Pirates
http://batr.org/gulag/123012.html
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but why stop there Heart…
California gun sales jump; gun injuries, deaths fall
http://www.sacbee.com/2012/12/27/5079151/california-gun-sales-increase.html
Mike Adams of Natural News on this SacBee story, follows:
The results are in: More guns sold mean fewer guns deaths, injuries
http://www.naturalnews.com/038511_gun_sales_crime_statistics_Second_Amendment.html
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…and it just gets better! This one bears serious consideration, as it goes into the history of racism and gun control…
[start excerpt]
"…the first generation of supply-side gun controls were explicitly racist. Ironically, these laws worked hand-in-hand with oppressive state regimes and terrorist organizations like the KKK. On this score Whitlock’s invocation of the KKK is ironic and perverse."
[end excerpt]
Gun Control’s Racist Origins
http://libertylawsite.org/2012/12/07/gun-controls-racist-origins/
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'Tinkerbell's resurrection'
maybe in 2013.
Well said AS.
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I agree nothing wrong with owning a gun and a permit to carry. JMHO
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PS…He was a boy scout leader.
Just saying..
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Sounds a familiar type and again, I'm glad for your 'attitude'.
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Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you’ve already said that!
I tried to post
LOL !
and thats the comment i got LOL
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And in the confusion this got misplaced , it's supposed to be follow up on Maggie's 11:00 AM post sry
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Small post thought..look at all the celebrity types..getting on the band wagon..many of them have private security..people like Michael Moore etc..have the local authorities falling all over themselves..when they arrive…
These people are protected.
Many of the major corporations..employ private security firms..
And of course..the military itself..only moves when loaded to the teeth.
Hypocritical behavior reigns ..in modern society.
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goes without saying Heart. "Do as we say…not as we do."
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@Heart
Why, I'd even bet our President has people around him defending him with guns!
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Heart of the Rose and Aftershock,
That is the message. The government arms itself, the corporate world arms itself. Anything of value is secured by weaponry. Ordinary people should be just as valuable as the ceo.
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agreed ncmissouri. They've managed to wreck our nation and now they want us to trust them with the lives of our children. I say…GOOD EFF'N LUCK!
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Agreed.. And most corporations have control of the local police forces as well as paying them extra while on duty to protect them or their property. We also have our military, funded by us, protecting pipelines ect. around the world.
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true MaidenHeaven, except there's one thing they're losing control over…the mind and hearts of those who serve them. Those who declare war on their own people…eventually lose. It'll be ugly and we'll have to guard against who 'wins', but if human history's any sign of the future, it's on our side…
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@Aftershock
Trust, once lost, is virtually impossible to regain.
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The Masque of Anarchy written in 1819 (see 1819 in poetry) by Percy Bysshe Shelley
Stand ye calm and resolute,
Like a forest close and mute,
With folded arms and looks which are
Weapons of unvanquished war.
And if then the tyrants dare,
Let them ride among you there,
Slash, and stab, and maim and hew,
What they like, that let them do.
With folded arms and steady eyes,
And little fear, and less surprise
Look upon them as they slay
Till their rage has died away
Then they will return with shame
To the place from which they came,
And the blood thus shed will speak
In hot blushes on their cheek.
Rise like Lions after slumber
In unvanquishable number,
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you-
Ye are many — they are few
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Thank you MaidenHeaven.
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There is strength and inspiration in these words.
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agreed Maggie123. Thank you MaidenHeaven. Awesome words!
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“If there is no fiscal crisis, can there be a fiscal cliff?…
“…To be sure, some restraint is needed in federal entitlement programs…Spending for Social Security, in particular, is very stable. Relatively modest changes, such as raising the taxable earnings base slightly, would be sufficient to put the program on a sound footing virtually forever….”
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/12/no-fiscal-crisis-cliff-bruce-bartlett
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Billow clouds:
http://spaceweather.com/gallery/indiv_upload.php?upload_id=74993
http://spaceweather.com/images2012/26dec12/waveclouds1.jpg?PHPSESSID=c5boq299k31bitlgp7v6v09nm7
These clouds, sometimes called "billow clouds," are produced by the Kelvin-Helmholtz instability when horizontal layers of air brush by one another at different velocities. A better name might be van Gogh clouds: It is widely believed that these waves in the sky inspired the swirls in van Gogh's masterpiece The Starry Night.
http://spaceweather.com/
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Anne – In years of sky watching, I've never seen such clouds – amazing! Awesome in the real sense of the word. Thanks too for the van Gogh reference, altogether a treat of a post!
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No one knows better than enenewsers how selective the MSM is in propagandizing their message to the masses. TV news and op eds are predominately gun control, assault weapons ban, hi cap magazine ban, ammunition tax, etc. I've rarely heard a thoughtful piece on the connection to recent mass murders and psychotropic drugs. All of these people were being treated with these drugs before they wigged out and started wacking people. Just like all corporate BS, follow the money. The ironic part of this one is which corporate group has the most power/money……Gun lobby or Big Pharma lobby?
http://www.offthegridnews.com/2012/08/14/psychiatric-drugs-and-mass-murder-exploring-the-connection/
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@PoorDaddy: with respect to what-else they're not discussing in the MSM, take some time and read this report on video game – induced – violent behavior. It's really good…
Video Game Violence and Public Policy
http://culturalpolicy.uchicago.edu/papers/2001-video-games/walsh.html
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Cancer Statistics, 2012
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.3322/caac.20138/pdf
5 years from now the actual rates will be truly shocking.
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Only two sleeps to go.. are we there yet
We're well beyond this …
http://enenews.com/forum-topic-discussion-thread-feb-26-2012-present/comment-page-71#comment-316575
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*phew
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Some thoughts I found on the www:
"The remarkable collapse of children’s engagement with nature – which is even faster than the collapse of the natural world – is recorded in Richard Louv’s book Last Child in the Woods, and in a report published recently by the National Trust. Since the 1970s the area in which children may roam without supervision has decreased by almost 90%. In one generation the proportion of children regularly playing in wild places in the UK has fallen from over half to fewer than one in ten. In the US, in just six years (1997-2003) children with particular outdoor hobbies fell by half. Eleven to 15 year-olds in Britain now spend, on average, half their waking day in front of a screen. The young people we might have expected to lead the defence of nature have less and less to do with it."
Sad but true, methinks.
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………
………
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knew this was happening B&B. Can you put-up some references to this material. Astonishing…
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Hi Aftershock, sure – the whole article's here:
http://www.monbiot.com/2012/11/19/housebroken/
G. Monbiot is a weird guy – as much as I dislike his take on nukes, I think he has some remarkable thoughts on other issues. His piece was linked from one of the goldnugget sites I check from time to time: http://www.notechmagazine.com (worth a look)
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thanks much BreadAndButter! Checking them out now…
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this No Tech Magazine is awesome BreadAndButter! Lots of really cool ideas. I'm going to look adopting the Solar Thermal Direct Heater panels into my palatial estates…
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Aftershock – re Solar Thermal Direct – don't know how far you want to get into DYI approaches but this might be of interest: http://www.treehugger.com/solar-technology/soda-can-solar-panel.html.
Other links also on this by running search for 'soda can solar panel'. I was pretty interested but not yet ready.
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B&B – excellent link, full agreement with Aftershock. Had to tear myself away. I like the way No Tech gives brief intro with photo and links to learn more.
Some ideas IMO not quite user-ready. Just thinking about the required action to operate the foot powered washer/spinner as it's designed makes my calves want to cramp!
Plans for building a dutch windmill – a direct hit on one of my favorite "we should learn about this, might come in handy" thoughts.
I subscribed to Mother Earth News years back, soaked up many ideas … also perused a small volume of 'patented inventions' from Victorian times that featured techniques that still might turn out to be useful or to inspire new uses.
A perfect website for reuse, recycle, repair and 'think again'. Following links at No Tech leads to even more great sites – Thanks so much!
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Agreed with Vic re 'housebroken' article, Bread and Butter. Back in 1960 I transferred to a 'suburban' high school (many rural kids too but 'tone' was suburban) I met kids who lacked what to me were basic appreciations and even skills re nature. They might party at a lake, but for them the prairies were 'boring'. They didn't know its small flowers that I'd seen on foot countless times; they didn't know its birds and grasses and the scent of its soil in a 'personal' way. That – even though many were first generation off-farm.
Years later I taught in an elem school in a very modest sized town surrounded by 'bush'. Same thing only worse – young students had limited personal experience in nature, indoor electronic entertainment was very popular.
The kids did however really like the outdoors. Field trips with pre-trip study of rocks, plants, animal tracks and bird slides were brought out keen interest and enthusiasm.
As time has gone on the separation has only increased, but potential is there. Article's emphasis on learning link to unstructured time in nature was very interesting.
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Thanks for the no-tech link, B&B. I love that kind of stuff – I love tech also. Finding a balance that works is one of life's great pleasures.
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BnB, oh, such a good post! Thx. And of course, the challenge, then, is how to get kids to be willing to consider their impact on the Earth when the Earth is something unfamiliar to them and has no personal context or meaning for them. Will they rise up to save the forests and oceans they have rarely seen?
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Exactly Vic. If nature is only seen as a "ressource" to exploit and generate gains (monetary) from, how can it possibly be saved???
Just watched "Soylent Green" the other night – I couldn't believe it's from 1973! Change Soylent for Monsanto, then you see today's situation. It's getting worse too fast.
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B&B, by fine coincidence this came into my inbox as I was reading your post. Somebody "gets it" out in rural Montana:
http://www.ravallirepublic.com/news/opinion/mailbag/article_aefc281d-9c1e-527f-a671-4cd0529145a5.html
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aigeezer – did you notice the 'take' by the commenter? One response we – me too – often have is 'stop this immediately'. The commenter demands the trapper "get another job", I agree with that also. BUT – I also know our entire economic system puts people in the position of not being able to feed, house, and clothe themselves – or to find their way to travel, advanced education, etc, without participating in 'the system'.
I could cry when I hear people defensively say they *must* commit atrocities against earth and life because they "need an income". Because it's actually true. Tough especially for a person raising children to decide to forgo destructive and cruel taking of habitat and life when – so far as the world they're familiar with – they've little choice.
I keep thinking this 'angle' needs more airing. But I'm not sure how to speak to it. It's my impression that so many whose livelihoods depend on killing (either directly or by wrecking habitat) are deeply convinced that it's their "right" to do so. It's their one way to 'have dominion over' *something* since the larger economy and world have effectively stripped them of power.
Wolf killing is growing as an 'economic' measure, both in US and Canada. Since industrial age began, wildlife – from smallest birds to grizzlies and moose – are shoved aside. If they survive, they are killed as 'danger and nuisance'. (Song birds are flat out disappearing – loss of habitat.)
Breaks my…
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.. breaks my heart (probably obvious missing word but …)
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Agreed on various levels, Maggie123. I moved to rural life a decade or so ago and was surprised at the thoughtless harshness left over from the long-gone frontier era. The local "sports columnist" who advocates shooting crows on sight for "target practice", the TV announcer who said coyotes had been spotted near the new school built at the edge of a town and that they must be killed because they had "lost their fear of man", even the local politician's brother who casually mentioned to me "you can always find someone with a doe license" (after you shoot a doe and need paperwork to make it "legal"). Plenty more, I'm sad to say, but I can't bring myself to write some of it.
Here the "jobs mantra" is routinely used to justify ghastly humanity-destroying minimum wage jobs, such as slaughtering mink in "mink farms" – and people fall for it, cling to it, take pride in it, and can imagine no alternatives. They are as caged as the mink but they don't see it.
"Deliverance" wasn't that far off reality for some.
Anyway, my wife and I have carved out 100+ acres where "critters" are welcome. From the distant bangs we hear in hunting season, we know that some of "our" critters don't fare too well though.
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Ah … aigeezer – I know just what you mean about "varmint killing" – among the cruelest of 'sports' that I sometimes heard about when I was a gun club member as a target shooter. Since members knew I was not a hunter, and since they were at one level a courteous even gracious lot, they gave me no hassle when I spoke up and objected to varmint killing, which I always did.
Coyotes were a favorite target, often intentionally cruelly shot. I objected on grounds of cruelty, on grounds of pups left without mothers, and on grounds of coyotes as natural predators of mice, packrats, etc. I was as graphic as I could be on orphaned pups. I spoke of the joy of having a coyote join me in the hay field, trailing some distance, catching mice. (Sorry re mice too, but at least that was nature and not human cruelty!)
Interesting. Took a few years, and several of the worst offenders, in quiet asides, volunteered "You know, I don't shoot coyotes on sight anymore. I leave them alone because of what you've said."
I 'got away' with it in part because as a non-hunting woman I was no threat to any 'macho' aspect that went with the cruelty.
I had less luck in my campaign to prevent shooting magpies and cowbirds, at least no one told me I'd made a difference. But I never shut up on these matters if there was the tiniest 'opening' in conversation for me to run my spiel.
Thankfully, members supported hunting regs, and had little respect for any who didn't.
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Aigeezer and M123, so nice to hear your words and caring for the other creatures and life. For welcoming animals and for standing up for them. Thank you so very much.
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I'm happy to hear you liked it! I'm actually in love with the open source water boiler
Finally a great way to boil water (without contaminating whole countries).
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This scenario is exactly why James Madison and friends put the second amendment into Constitutional Law…
Senate votes to continue FISA domestic spying through 2017
All proposed privacy amendments rejected
Civil rights organizations were quick to blast the vote, characterizing the FISA Amendments Act as an unconstitutional law that grants the government excessive and unchecked surveillance authority.
In a statement, the Electronic Frontier Foundation called the vote "shameful" and "disgraceful," adding, "Make no mistake: this vote was nothing less than abdication by Congress of its role as watchdog over Executive power, and a failure of its independent obligation to protect the Bill of Rights."
The American Civil Liberties Union also chimed in, saying, "It's a tragic irony that FISA, once passed to protect Americans from warrantless government surveillance, has mutated into its polar opposite due to the FISA Amendments Act. The Bush administration's program of warrantless wiretapping, once considered a radical threat to the Fourth Amendment, has become institutionalized for another five years."
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/29/senate_fisa_extension_vote/
Loose your "Bill of Rights", and you will be signing into "The Internet", like China.
It's a model of control, that .gov drools over…
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Spot on, Jebus.
The Patriot Act was a wet dream for American Law Enforcement. It was sold as something to protect us from terrorism, but the reality of it's use is quite different.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSXMW2FMC7A
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spot-on ForwardAssist. Not unlike the so-called 'War On Drugs', this effort simply justifies the burgeoning military-police-surveillance state…
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Aftershock,
Please watch the Andrew Napolitano video I posted below, if you have some time.
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will do ForwardAssist…
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Just finished ForwardAssist. Incredible man. Always surprised that such a bold American was ever a part of the Fox network. Still, it's nice know they're are still some within law enforcement, who can't be bought…
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@Jebus
"Senate votes to continue FISA domestic spying through 2017
All proposed privacy amendments rejected."
Yep. It's that sort of thing that ensures mistrust.
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Adele – Skyfall (Lyric Video)
xxxxcoolxxx404
Published on Nov 7, 2012
CLICK>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OYBOao7_qE
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I share this fellow's opinion of the Second Amendment,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdkiLC06Nso
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Question: Where do our rights originate?
Answer: From our humanity.
"Judge Andrew Napolitano: Natural Rights and the Patriot Act"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1P53wMbnsw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjhNZjanX9k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n2m-X7OIuY
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Community Action Propels Taiwanese Govmt. Towards Zero Waste
http://truth-out.org/news/item/13616-community-action-propels-the-tiawanese-government-toward-zero-waste
GoGoGoGoGO!!!
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Oh, once again, thank you BnB for showing how community action actual does something in the real world. Many bloggers here see action as wasted effort. Good thing these people in Taiwan don't. In fact, if i recall, didn't German citizens start the successful no nukes campaign in Germany that eventually led to Merkel's decision, pre 3/11 i might add, to start dismantling their nuke industry? Hmmm…maybe little people doing things collectively is truly powerful after all. So kewl…
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Obama signs law countering Iranian sway in Latin America
http://rt.com/news/obama-iran-latin-america-091/
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Woman finds note from Chinese labor camp prisoner in Kmart decorations http://www.examiner.com/article/woman-finds-note-from-chinese-labor-camp-prisoner-kmart-decorations …
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check this out CB…
http://enenews.com/forum-topic-discussion-thread-feb-26-2012-present/comment-page-72#comment-317564
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I guess it's an oldy but goody, I don't get here as much as I would like to lately. I guess you had it covered, lol.
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it's a 'great minds' kinda thing CB. I'm just glad others – out here – have as keen an eye…
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CB posts: "Woman finds note from Chinese labor camp…"
SP: I was researching this Halloween decoration "note" earlier. On first impulse I am inclined to think it was s pre-election ruse to discredit the party in power. But who knows? In any event we know conditions are terrible for many citizens in China.
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it's for real Sickputer and well hidden from the global citizenry…
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Hope, or hopelessness?
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/06e4g20W4Zk?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
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http://youtu.be/06e4g20W4Zk
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A look into the near term future…
They Watch Everything – But Why? The Rising 3rd Party
"…One story never reported in the US press, was a commercial airline traveling to South America from Europe non-stop had someone the US wanted for a drug prosecution. They sent two fighter jets to force the plane to land in Miami to arrest the individual. Money is never an object neither is health concerns. They know who is on an airplane when you take off and they run full checks of everyone. Anyone who flies near the USA or to the USA is monitored…"
http://armstrongeconomics.com/693-2/2012-2/they-watch-everything-but-why-the-rising-3rd-party/
and
http://armstrongeconomics.com/armstrong_economics_blog/
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@razzz
Thank you razzz, that was highly informational.
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Your welcome. As close to real time behind the scenes reporting available, at least for me.
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Council on Foreign Relations Website Infects Visitors With Spy Virus Malware
http://theintelhub.com/2012/12/30/council-on-foreign-relations-website-infects-visitors-with-spy-virus-malware/
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I'm off for a few ,
Happy Newyear everybody , and Admin Too , I hope people will be touching the "appreciation for your hard work" button on the right alot .
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Also heading out for a few, the night begins in Sydney.
Happy new year to you and all too. Chat with you in 2013
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Belated thank you both , hope all was nice . Obviously i ment a few day's .
richard ; "chatting" might be out of my reach due to slow reading , thinking and typing speed . Usually when i finisch a post (often take hours sometimes day's to make sure of added-value) , the thread is already advanced and its impossible for me to catch up again . Then there is the many breaks i need…
But i'm glad for your support…
(the forum acts funny , i hope this gets not misplaced )
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Thank You, Happy New Year DisasterInterpretationDissorder & richard
Saw Sydney on TV richard, looked beautiful. Hope you were able to see it in person.
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@WindorSolarPlease – just saw this – yes, i managed to see a little of the fireworks, high and off in the distance. certainly felt and heard most of it, plus it was live on tv, woo hoo.
thanks for watching
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Facebook bans Gandhi quote as part of revisionist history purge
Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/038484_Gandhi_quote_Facebook_censorship.html#ixzz2GcX83JTI
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Well, maybe….no proof, just a claim and getting Natural News lots of money hits. So, given that fb allows just about anything anytime as long as they can get an ad under it, around it, or thru it, i say show me the proof. Is Mark Zukerberg really a Gandhi fan? Does he really care about gun laws? Has he ever made a public political statement in his entire life? Does he really have time to read our personal timelines? Is Zuckerberg complying with a hidden government demand? There are often these high claims of misconduct by gun advocates shortly after a gun massacre when the fear is that the pubic might be rethinking its gun laws. Natural News toting out Gandhi as a gun rights advocate is a bit of a stretch, but, i doubt Zuckerberg would interfere. And, it would be interesting to see if Natural News just took that paragraph they liked and posted that rather than the context in which Gandhi wrote it. Did Gandhi own a gun? A little self promotion on the part of NN? An actual case of blatant censorship? A misunderstanding regarding the conducting of business on facebook? We're they trying to sell something without paying ad fees? Maybe NN will provide the public with the actual screenshots, emails, warnings, etc. that can support their claim. Then we can all write Zuckerberg with our own complaints.
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here's something to mull-over, Vic…
Facebook, Twitter and other social media sites are an elaborate CIA spying scheme
http://www.naturalnews.com/038491_social_media_CIA_spying.html
BTW. In the parlance of intel-speech, such venues are called "honey pots". The Stasi would be green with envy, had they the means to do this…
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just in case you missed it, Vic, I'm reposting razzz's link to the following article. Now, I don't agree with the author's premise to why this is being done, just that it's being done…
They Watch Everything – But Why? The Rising 3rd Party
http://armstrongeconomics.com/693-2/2012-2/they-watch-everything-but-why-the-rising-3rd-party/
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Aftershock, because i am not in a position to lose rights and opportunities and power and privilege that i have not even been given, i tend to view the current concern about NWO's as just part of the continuation of eons of repression and collusion. I, personally, haven't actually seen a break where the NWO folks did not exist, did not maintain secret power, did not try to rule the world. So, i'm not freakin out about it because, for me, they are already a given. My challenge becomes, how do i live and still develop and act from personal integrity, my core values, and also make change all the while there are civilians and governments and businesses who are trying to control me, kill me, and destroy my planet? I will rarely have high finances and institutional power. Given this, i must develop personal power, real empowerment that came from within me and not granted by some outside authority over me. I know the heart, mind and face of repression and violence very intimately, yet, i am still here undeterred. A gun cannot give me that strength. A law cannot give me that ability. They are tools, but, they are not strength, they are not courage, they are not empowerment. They cannot be depended upon as the basis of my resilience.
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Wanted to add a tidbit, Vic and Aftershock – mostly a bounce off Vic's post. When I read your words, Vic, "Die Gedanken Sind Frei" popped to mind. A song I haven't thought about in years. I used to use it as a personal mantra to remind myself that having an 'outlier' p.o.v. in my sub-culture's environment didn't mean I had to change.
Also thinking re the broader conversation – we've got a lot of 'life experience' accumulated here at ENE. A fair amount of "hard knocks" learning since many/most of us have 'outlier' qualities I'd guess. I wonder how many of us are engaged in activist effort that matches our circumstances. We don't hear a lot of this among our posts, but it does come up.
I'm thinking that outside what we share here we're each busy trying to (1)raise awareness, (2)support needed change, (3)identify, define, and call out problems, and (4)consider, practice, and offer solution. (Had to number them due to so many commas!)
In any case – good for us – and forward, as they say, into the fray!
Seeger: http://youtu.be/dbwQXVcbkU0.
Happy New Year to Everyone.
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Maggie123, I knew that as a Limeliters song back in the day – didn't realize it was Seeger's until your post.
I sometimes reflect on a corny song from the same era with the then-innocent lyric fragment "You can't go to jail for what you're thinking." But of course now you can.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlbGQ0xKZbY
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Apparently a lot of people sang it. I'm not sure whose version is in my head, close but not quite same tune as Seeger's.
"The text and the melody can be found in Lieder der Brienzer Mädchen, printed in Bern, Switzerland between 1810 and 1820. The original lyricist and the composer are unknown, …" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Gedanken_sind_frei
I once knew all words to "Standing on the Corner". A great tune for singing and sure a different time!
Speaking of a different time – today's conditions prompt me often to think of "The Titanic". Seeger and others performed it as a straight piece. I learned it as a rousing affair, similar to this version: http://youtu.be/fGt5hscfSlQ. (Captain Neal's Folk Fest).
Lots of verses I guess, the version I knew had a verse not on the Neal performance: "and the rich refused to associate with the poor, so they put them down below where they'd be the first to go, it was sad…".
We sang it with much enthusiasm, wondering as we sang how we could make merry at a horrible tragedy. I wasn't yet a rabid social critic but 'knew' there was something to pay attention to. (Waking up is a slow process!)
Another comic statement back then that's all too fitting now: Smother's Brothers (Rioting in Africa): http://youtu.be/L8-BI89mb9A.
Like 'Titanic', 'Rioting in Africa' is cheery black humor that I think we 'knew' was a also a 'heads up'.
(But still, each is so irresistibly lively!)
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I admit, I was very suspicious about Hillary Clinton concussion.
I questioned it.
It looks like she really does have problems.
CLICK>>http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/30/politics/hillary-clinton-hospitalized/index.html
Hope she feels better soon.
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yep, she does not look good, I wondered if she was having fukushima like symptoms..
Dizzy, then faints, falls down, now we can report concussion.. but what is underlying?
"Stomach virus on the rise.. Four patients have died at a Yokohama hospital after an outbreak of infectious gastroenteritis left nearly 100 patients and medical personnel ill, some with signs of the norovirus in them.
…
The Health Ministry warned municipalities nationwide in late November about a spreading norovirus epidemic after suspected cases of infectious gastroenteritis caused by the norovirus were observed at their highest pace since 2006."
http://hisz.rsoe.hu/alertmap/site/?pageid=event_desc&edis_id=EH-20121231-37683-JPN
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Hi Cataclysmic
HMMMM???? You never know, Fukushima might have something to do with this?? Maybe???
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You are not the only one who is suspicious (read the comments)…
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2973521/posts
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I just hope she will be ok razzz.
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@WindorSolarPlease
LOL. Now she is in hospital with a blood clot in the brain. LOL. Does anyone really believe that Hillary won't leave office long before she would be well enough to testify? Remember, if one lies to a congressional committee, it would be perjury. In addition, everyone should remember that we did NOT have an Ambassador or a Consul in Benghazi. I don't know what he was, but he was not one of those. BTW I wonder what happened to the generals (like General Ham) who were brought home by the President shortly after he was elected for "bad judgment?"
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I will be surprised if we hear the whole truth NoPrevarication.
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Oh..she was heading out the door as fast as possible..
Because..wow..if she had to tell the truth.
Ambassador Steven’s blood is on Obama’s hands [Reader Post]
http://floppingaces.net/2012/09/13/ambassador-stevens-blood-is-on-obamas-hands-reader-post/
PS..Lol..I never thought I'd post something by Glen Beck.
But the guy let's it rip here…what can I say.
BREAKING OBAMA MAY GO TO PRISON AND BE IMPEACHED KILLING OUR OWN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=J0EfXnSFVfc
The title..a bit much..but check it out..
He gives it a go..
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..Notice the destination..of the weapons..Africa..
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in the terminator movies, sometimes the implant fails…
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sN6mfc0fFIY
ALIEN 3 deleted scene
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HAVE A HAPPY NEW YEAR – 2013
CLICK>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=op-7OKejI8s&playnext=1&list=PL4ijM8RGgzAlhB0Vnw4yIxQwysCcakrhz&feature=results_main
Please Don't Drink and Drive
Crash where you are at, and not on the road.
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Radiation-averse evacuees flock to Okinawa
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20121231a6.html
If anyone has family that has temporarily moved to Okinawa:
Your family must continue to relocate! They cannot stay in Japan. I know it is expensive to travel but please keep moving. Once the soldiers get sick at Okinawa the civilians do not want to be stuck there negotiating for transportation.
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Fascinating thread in the last few days. Thank you all – it wasn't always thus.
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Obama authorizes five more years of warrantless wiretapping
http://rt.com/usa/news/obama-fisa-faa-signed-143/
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hope you kids are ready. Due to its proximity, their no longer able to deny this incoming hazard. Make a point of reading the article carefully…
Counter Intelligence Agency: Asteroid to threaten Earth in 2013
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/12/31/counter-intelligence-agency-asteroid-to-threaten-earth-in-2013/
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cool, the whole myan thing left alot of people disappointed
glad they have "new hope" on the horizon
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@behappy1
And goodbye to aliens and a slew of other things. Maybe 2013 will not even mention them.
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Holy cow Aftershock that`s some reading. The safest place, for awhile during a mega tsunami, I think, would be up in an airplane, wouldn't it?!! And a month away. I noticed the description of their-our vehicles and it is quite how I described my own siting. I`ve been working to put things right in my heart for some reason naturally this past year. I hope this doesn't happen but I think we have entered a specific area of our planets rotations, and things feel different. Fingers crossed, it would be a terrifying experience Id prefer to avoid. Thanks for posting it.
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Man Captures Video Of Strange Explosion In The Sky
December 30, 2012 11:59 PM
http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/12/30/man-captures-video-of-strange-explosion-in-the-sky/
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To understand why I don't like the Clinton's you'd have to understand the story behind Iran-Contra. I'm not talking about the bullshit, smoke screen, white washed version that the American public swallowed.
Gary Webb,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6dHqP9wc3k
Mena, Arkansas: Mena Municipal Airport
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJibpRgRaUg
Meet "Freeway" Ricky Ross, the dealer,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX_-xMqg-6E
Imagine the empires built with all that untraceable money.
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Iran Contra happened during the Reagan administration, two administrations before Bill Clinton became president.
“The Iran–Contra affair (Persian: ایران-کنترا, Spanish: caso Irán-contras), also referred to as Irangate, Contragate or the Iran-Contra scandal, was a political scandal in the United States that came to light in November 1986. During the Reagan administration, senior administration officials secretly facilitated the sale of arms to Iran, the subject of an arms embargo.[1] Some U.S. officials also hoped that the arms sales would secure the release of hostages and allow U.S. intelligence agencies to fund the Nicaraguan Contras. Under the Boland Amendment, further funding of the Contras by the government had been prohibited by Congress….”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair
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Bill Clinton's first term didn't start until 1992.
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Anne, In retrospect my response may have been a bit rude. Apologies.
The basic story is this,
A little know airport in Mena, Arkansas, Mena Municipal Airport, was used as a base of operations for Iran-Contra drug and arms trafficking.
Barry Alderman Seal operated the CIA front company, "Rich Mountain Aviation". He and his pilots flew CIA owned (Air America) C-123 Providers into and out of the USA carrying arms and cocaine.
The cocaine was sold on the streets of America to "fund a guerilla war against the Nicaraguan Contra's". In reality it lined the bank accounts of several key American political families.
They operated in several US cities, Los Angeles the most notable due to the arrest of "Freeway" Ricky Ross. Ross was receiving literally truckloads of cocaine from a source inside, "The Operation".
Iran Contra was one of the most insidious acts ever committed against the US and every American should understand the true nature and who profited. Simple fact, the US government at it's highest level had a key role in the crack cocaine epidemic which devastated segments of this country.
Which naturally leads you to the development of the privatized prison industry under the Bush administration……..
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However, in the advent you are still skeptical and would like to hear directly from a government source I'd like to present Congresswoman Maxine Waters. It was inside her district that the story first became public. (watch the volume)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5ERlo1YnLU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS_sVsz5SLU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1U88VvmF08
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kIDD1euFXI
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And if you want to know just how dirty it gets, I present Celerino Castillo. (George Bush AT the cocaine presses in South America)
(parts 1 through 7)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImsCv4rdlXE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c5hJAlfoYc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZDDFvOVNGs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEFVv_MouL8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foEJ5uCyByw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zPaP7wsnW4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLnlZshRdHo
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SO, you don't understand how Iran Contra links the Bush's, the Clinton's, and Reagan and you don't want to know.
I get it.
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Still active today. The political families are lackeys for those behind the scenes:
http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/conspiracy/rothschild/soros.html
Someone was complaining about Democracy Now. This is funded by the Rockefeller Foundation.
Thank you for explaining your post. I hadn't looked very much at the videos you posted and hadn't looked at the one on Mena, AK.
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Bain Capital started with help of offshore investors
Mitt Romney's firm raised more than a third of its first investment fund from wealthy foreigners — who mostly used companies in Panama, then known for tax advantages and banking secrecy.
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jul/19/nation/la-na-bain-creation-20120719
Holmes DARPA Connection
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=iXh7X3-V5Lc
http://www.hangthebankers.com/shooter-james-holmes-and-the-darpa-connection-mk-ultra-victim/
http://www.livescience.com/7019-mind-control-parasites.html
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Here is the video where it is speculated that the shooting in Aurora is to cover up the investigation into Romney and Bain Capital money laundering.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwyfcJ9MnaU
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MAP: http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Maps/10/145_35.php
Magnitude
4.8
Date-Time
• Monday, December 31, 2012 at 09:36:01 UTC
• Monday, December 31, 2012 at 07:36:01 PM at epicenter
Location
37.475°N, 143.679°E
Depth
34.3 km (21.3 miles)
Region
OFF THE EAST COAST OF HONSHU, JAPAN
Distances
234 km (145 miles) ESE of Ishinomaki, Japan
237 km (147 miles) E of Namie, Japan
241 km (149 miles) ESE of Yamoto, Japan
247 km (153 miles) SE of Ofunato, Japan
This earthquake is 145.2 mi (233.7 km) E from Fukushima Daiichi (#1) Nuclear Power Plant
http://www.movable-type.co.uk/scripts/latlong.html
Fukushima #1 37.422972N 141.032917E
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Burdock Root
http://www.naturalnews.com/027521_burdock_root_blood.html
http://herbal-remedies.fitnessthroughfasting.com/herbal-preparations/vervain.php
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I just watched midnight at Times Square. This country is so dumb. There in lights two different places is Toshiba advert. How can those who are killing us with radiation be allowed to take over everything? A country that can celebrate its own death and enslavement to nuclear power is unbelievably sad and sick. This is one New Year's Eve I'll never forget. Probably won't live to see another one. And one singer in the interview just before also said how wonderful it was to be going on tour to Japan next year. US media is the culture of slaves, death, and madness.
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Anne – It's hard for me to not be beyond impatience with total mindlessness of broad culture's "celebrations". Recently for the first time in my life the word "disgusted" keeps rising to mind – and the rest of mind doesn't seem interested in talking me out of it. It's a word that fits.
Every day when I log into my email my first step is to log into my service provider who has a 'news page'. The news is all sensational. 'Real' news quickly and automatically flips to 'entertainment news' – and I swear I think it 'holds' on those headlines/photos longer than 'real news'. Then it moves onto sports and finally some category of 'bizarre' stories.
I suppose it's a 'reality check' for me to be reminded daily of 'what sells' – but it's not cause for much hope!
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At the very least, after delivering bleak agreement, I could have wished you a heartfelt good new year! And so I do – Have a Good New Year, Anne.
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TY, Maggie. Happy New Year and Best Wishes to the entire anti-Nuke community.
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Thank you again anne for all the links and for your posts that you write in.
Happy New Year and best wishes also.
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To all ENEers and Admin also – Best Wishes in this Unfolding Year – strength, courage, wisdom, and heart-felt laughter when it comes along.
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Thank you Maggie123. Happy New Year
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Anti-whaling skipper poses problem over arrest notice.
A DIPLOMATIC headache is developing for the federal government as ground is laid for the wanted Sea Shepherd leader, Paul Watson, to come ashore in Australia.
Mr Watson is wanted by Japan over his Antarctic anti-whaling campaigns, and after skipping bail in Germany has been at sea for months to avoid arrest.
The former Greens leader Bob Brown said on Monday a key job in his new role as a Sea Shepherd Australia director was to ensure that Mr Watson could come ashore safely, and warned an arrest would bring uproar.
Mr Watson, who is on board the ship Steve Irwin in the Southern Ocean, said he had been given a business entry visa to Australia by the Australian Embassy in Washington.
''But I don't have a passport,'' Mr Watson said. ''Both my Canadian and US passports are in Germany.''
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/whale-watch/antiwhaling-skipper-poses-problem-over-arrest-notice-20121231-2c2q1.html
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oh, admin, this is weird, my post has not appeared as the last entry.
please delete this comment should you come across it.
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Richard, This happens sometimes when a new page needs to start for this particular thread. It is happening to every new comment in this thread right now.
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Except when you reply to a previous post.
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Yeah for Mr. Watson!
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Revealed: how the FBI coordinated the crackdown on Occupy
New documents prove what was once dismissed as paranoid fantasy: totally integrated corporate-state repression of dissent
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coordinated-crackdown-occupy
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@anne: Quote: "FBI coordinated crackdown on Occupy" This is the real reason they want to disarm American's… eventually the protests will no longer be peaceful. It's much easier to assault and pepper spray and intimidate protestors if they are unarmed.
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And, to follow up on the speculation that Hillary Clinton gave herself a concussion and a blood clot in order to get out of the Benghazi hearings, speculate again –
http://news.yahoo.com/clinton-accepts-benghazi-findings-orders-broad-changes-024017457.html
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Q: How many government officials does it take to change a light bulb?
A: More troops!
Old joke – couldn't resist. I imagine those for whom Hillary can do nothing right will switch their position to "she didn't study the material thoroughly – it's the blood clot speaking". Circus life – great to watch.
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I see Hillary as an old radical that decided early on to try and bring change from within by going into the system. It ate her alive. She has many faults and has done many horrible things in the name of national security. But, she does her own work tirelessly and doesn't fob her guilt onto others. So, while i don't agree with most of what she does or represents, and i wouldn't of anyone in her position, of course, given my politics, i appreciate what good she has done, especially for the right of women to not to be raped, trafficked or beaten to death.
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VFO, nice insights. I've always felt sorry for Hillary. Not for the Monica stuff particularly, although that seems to fit the brass ring, sisyphean kind of thing she seems to have spent her life on. Bird in a gilded cage, or some such thing. Maybe she likes it – who can say – but she strikes me as a tragic figure in life (so far).
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RAUm6l_t6k
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aigeezer, i knew so many people in the late 60's and early 70's who figured they could bring change from within far more effectively. The arguments were intense and dramatic, people feeling betrayed, suspicious. I'm sure you were a part of that discussion, if only in your own choices. I eventually came to see that to bring about deep institutional systematic change, there is a need for changemakers to be everywhere and at all levels when possible. So, i no longer assume that all people in the system are my adversary. In fact, without them, the radical change and pressure from the outside would make far less progress. I just don't have the makings to do it. I am already on the outer rings of society and it is from this periphery that i can do my best work, give my most, feel most alive and integrated. I just lose myself too fast within the system or start spending all my time fighting against it instead of putting my energy towards creating alternatives. You're assessment of Hillary as a tragic figure, i'm sure is shared even by her in harder moments. You are right on.
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Senate passes package to avert fiscal cliff; House votes next
Hope everyone has a parachute, just incase.
CLICK>>http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/01/politics/fiscal-cliff/index.html
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WSP, here's one satirist's take on the story:
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/2012/12/congress-collapses-from-exhaustion-after-doing-job.html
I think people are catching on that these recurring crises are mainly media-induced theater. Already I'm seeing msm blather that the next "far more serious" one will arrive in February. Of course, one of them will be real sooner or later – the nation is effectively insolvent, as are most western nations. I have a hunch it will come suddenly and without scripted warning though, for example through a sudden spontaneous sell-off of sovereign bonds.
We'll know when it happens, that's for sure.
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Hi aigeezer
OMGosh I busted out laughing when I read this.
Quote: Hundreds of congressmen complained of headaches, dizzy spells, and extreme fatigue after putting in what sources called “a six, maybe seven-hour day.”
Good thing they are not the average Joe who works day and night.
More drama to take your eye off the other things.
Basically their plan is to take away from those who need help, to let us hit rock bottom, they are the ones who have created economic problems, eventually they want everyone on their knees, and for everyone to except their plans of a NWO that is already in motion.
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WSP, no sooner did you say "they are the ones who have created economic problems" than another satirical piece appeared on that very subject:
"Washington Celebrates Solving Totally Unnecessary Crisis They Created"
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/2013/01/washington-celebrates-solving-totally-unnecessary-crisis-they-created.html
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aigeezer, I have no connections, honest.
lol funny though..
Where do I send my bill to..haha..
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A national treasury squandered, and continuing to be squandered,
"Why we fight"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO7-GBRx1xM
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Hi ForwardAssist
Most Soldiers fight for the protection of their Country, they fight for freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom for everyone, for injustice of the people.
Most all Government uppers have these Soldiers fight for profit, for the riches of the land, and for more power/control, while sitting in their mighty towers and comfy seats.
This is the way it has always been.
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First Aid Kit – Universal Soldier (Buffy-Sainte Marie)
CLICK>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xq831b2tPg&playnext=1&list=PL64A7922B4828B2A9&feature=results_main
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WSP, I think people sign up for different reasons at different times in the cycle of war/peace. Of course each person signs up for his/her own reasons, but in my own case long long ago… there were no wars on and the military signup slogan in my country eventually became "there's no life like it".
The pitch was adventure. There was not the slightest hint of danger. No suggestion whatsoever that we might have to kill anything or ewww get shot at.
I was a teen. I signed up in the Reserves because the uniforms looked cool, I would get paid, I could go camping and get paid for it, I could ride in the back of a truck and maybe even drive one, I could handle "guns", maybe get to march behind a tank, I could get to use a two-way radio… on and on, you get the idea. I didn't have a clue, and that suited them just fine.
Had there been a war on, the pitch would have been different, and they would have hooked me using different bait.
Regardless, had I stayed in the system I would have become part of it, learned how to brag about it – there's no life like it – and in time I would have learned how to troll for teen recruits also. Once the system is in place, it operates effectively – which of course leads to your point about who uses the system for their own ends. Buffy got it right, all those years ago, but for me… nobody ever said anything about fighting – that bit was in their back pocket.
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aigeezer, the actual fighting is sometimes different than the reasons for signing up, joining.
I agree, there are many reasons why they sign up, and even why they all fight.
Thank you for sharing your reason for joining, it was interesting.
Cool uniforms, get paid, get to go camping, trucks, tanks, guns, two way radios. Too young to understand. Glad that you didn't have to fight.
I saw people I knew drafted or sign up during the Vietnam times. The ones drafted usually weren't that happy to be called.
The ones I knew who signed up, did it because they wanted freedom for everyone, for the injustice of the people, and they felt it was their duty to this Country to take a stand.
Maybe I grew up in a different generation.
No matter if they were drafted or recruited they had, one thing in common, they came back different.
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Buffy Sainte-Marie – "No No Keshagesh"
Unfortunately, I think they can, and are
CLICK>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7EYXnLLWZ8
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@WSP
Or, perhaps like my childhood friend who was drafted and was afraid to go, they came back in a coffin for a "political" war.
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Sorry NoPrevarication, there were many. There always is.
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Happy New Year everyone
This thread should be working ok now, if not let me know.
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Thank You Happy New Year
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and Happy New Year to the folk who run this awesome site, and to all the good people who frequent it!
It's been an awesome year hanging-out with you people. Let's try to remember those who've moved on (for whatever reason) and welcoming to those who will be joining us.
Blessings from the goddess to all throughout the following year. (…gulp…sorry admin…)
Let's all remain strong, true and supportive, as the 'great change' descends upon our world…on its way through each of us…
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Scientist says dock washed up on Wash. beach looks just like Japan tsunami dock that hit Ore.
Wash. dock resembles one from Japan found in Ore.
By JEFF BARNARD | ASSOCIATED PRESS | Dec 31, 2012 10:06 AM CST in US
http://www.newser.com/article/da3grg6o0/scientist-says-dock-washed-up-on-wash-beach-looks-just-like-japan-tsunami-dock-that-hit-ore.html
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MASS BIRD DIE-OFF: UP TO 300 BIRDS MYSTERIOUSLY FALL FROM THE SKY IN SEYMOUR, TENNESSEE?!
12:05 PM ANDRE HEATH NO COMMENTS
** December 31, 2012 – UNITED STATES – Residents and those passing by near Dogwood Hills subdivision on Boyd Creek Highway Sunday afternoon were met with an unusual scene. Dozens of dead birds littered the highway and surrounding fields after falling from the sky. Sgt. Robert Stoffle of the Sevier County Sheriff's Department said a call about the birds came in around 1:15 p.m. **
http://thecelestialconvergence.blogspot.ca/2012/12/mass-bird-die-off-up-to-300-birds.html
** The last time this happened, they blamed new Years Fireworks, and I think it was blackbirds in the south. Fukushima happened three months later.
Not insisting there is any link but cant seem to resist acknowledging the coincidences in these two events.
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About 200 birds found dead in Arkansas city for second straight New Year's Eve
CLICK>>http://articles.cnn.com/2012-01-01/us/us_arkansas-bird-deaths_1_blackbird-deaths-dead-birds-fireworks?_s=PM:US
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Hi Anthony
I don't believe all these bird death, fish, sea life washing up, that has happened in 2012 was normal.
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Neither do I. But if there is another great quake tsunami combo in Japan next couple months, I'm going to adjust my intuitive skepticism. I just find it uncanny, its like real life Groundhogs Day. In a horror story of course.
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agreed Anthony. This is a sad lose of life. You'd have to do the research to see if there were similar incidents, prior to 311. I suspect some type of human made pollution. I'm thinking clouds of noxious gas or disruption of their neural networks from clandestine or inadvertent electronic transmissions. I doubt there are any other examples of something like this happening in a natural setting. Even a volcano would emit a mixture of warning smells within the plume. Something very scary is going on with these incidents. I'm curious if any researchers are looking into this 'phenomena'…
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A tribute to Inno.
Probably one of our first feathered friends to most likely succumb to the affect of radiation contamination due to the Fukushima meltdowns.
Name: Inno (short for Innocent One)
Species: Bird
Location: Fukushima Reactor 1
Weather: Foggy
Date: 12-07-11
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2099954/Rad%202012-07-11%2004.41%2032%20birdy.jpg
____
Screen shot:
Bird falling from the sky at Fukushima Reactor 3.
(There were several of these on the video that day.)
(source video was fuku1long 2012-11-13 9:00-10:00 jst)
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2099954/Rad%202012-11-12%20falling%20birdy%20flash%20001c.JPG
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all news http://www.newsblok.com/
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CB, thanks for the link.
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Hillary Clinton in hospital amid speculation of plane accident in Iran
“But around Tehran and the Gulf Emirates, debkafile was already picking up insistent rumors claiming that Clinton was seriously injured while on a secret mission in the region in the first week of December. Some claimed that in the same incident, Americans in her party – advisers and security personnel – were either injured or killed. Those rumors did not say what her secret mission was. However, the episode described occurred shortly after Dec. 1, when, as debkafile reported at the time, Obama administration officials and senior representatives of Ayatollah Ali Khamenei launched secret talks on Iran’s nuclear program.
“Although our sources have not identified the negotiators on either side of the table, one of the theories floating around certain capitals claimed that Hillary Clinton three weeks ago was on her way to a secret meeting with President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in regard to those negotiations. The plane carrying her from Bahrain logged its destination as Baghdad, but is described as having changed direction in midair and headed for Ahvaz, capital of the south Iranian province of Khuzestan. There, it was said, the Iranian president was awaiting her arrival. But then the plane ran into technical trouble and made an emergency landing and that was when she was injured, according to this theory.
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[cont.]
“The unexplained death of Commander Job Price, 42, SEALs commander in Afghanistan is tied by some of the speculation to that incident. At the time, the Pentagon reported that his sudden death on Dec. 22, in Uruzgan, Afghanistan, was under investigation. It is now suggested that Commander Price was head of the security detail attached to Clinton for her Iran mission and he was one of the casualties of the accident….”
http://www.debka.com/article/22645/Hillary-Clinton-in-hospital-amid-speculation-of-plane-accident-in-Iran
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Oh wow anne, there is tons of things we don't know, so this could be true?? Don't know??
Do you know how accurate that site is?
Thanks for the link..
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I don't have any idea of the accuracy of the site.
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Thank You anne. It might be right, who knows?
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I think it is healthy to be skeptical of any news story. Those some news stories seem to be more believable than others. I think a lot of reporting reflects stories planted by one side or another of the elite, who certainly don't agree on anything. Also they control the dialogue that way, so that people are choosing up sides, when an undiscussed side is left out, e.g., nuclear energy and how it is causing climate change and much heightened storms by Krypton-95. Also, so many health problems, so-called because of genetics or life style choices, when these problems are caused by the huge accumulation and bio accumulation of radiation and other toxins in the environment, or at least hugely magnify life style choices so that only terrible health problems and death are the result.
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