Fukushima Nuclear Chief after 3/11: It will be like ‘China Syndrome’ film, fuel to melt away — “We’re imagining collapse of eastern Japan… going to be more than Chernobyl” — “Could be Plutonium… all substances from fuel are going to be released”

Published: June 2nd, 2014 at 5:53 pm ET
By

139 comments


Asahi Shimbun, June 2, 2014: One of the darkest hours in the Fukushima nuclear disaster came very early on when [TEPCO] said the situation [at Fukushima Daiichi] was out of control. After hearing this, nuclear experts and government officials gathered at the prime minister’s office in Tokyo got ready to throw in the towel […] [Goshi Hosono, special adviser to Prime Minister Naoto Kan] conveyed the utter panic and hopelessness that gripped people in the room. TEPCO executives said the nuclear reactors “are now out of control” as signs emerged of major damage to the No. 2 reactor’s containment vessel. […] Hosono’s account offers the most complete picture to date of the helplessness that raged as the enormity of the disaster became apparent early on March 15, 2011 […] TEPCO officials became hugely alarmed around 2 a.m. or 3 a.m., when the pressure inside the reactor containment vessel started shooting up, prompting them to state that things are “out of control.” […] Other nuclear experts who were present at the office, like Haruki Madarame, chairman of the Nuclear Safety Commission, shared the same mind-set with TEPCO that all options had run out in containing the disaster.

Asahi Shimbun interview with Goshi Hosono, adviser to PM Naoto Kan: “It was shocking to hear the words ‘out of control’ from TEPCO. With nuclear experts saying the situation was out of control, there was no way I could tell them to keep it under control. […] With nothing we could do, we felt an overpowering sense of helplessness […] Overall, we all thought the withdrawal had to be stopped no matter what, but we didn’t have anything to back up our belief. How do we do this … ? With TEPCO saying there was nothing they could do, we were consumed by hopelessness.” [Watch: Hosono: Very strong possibility there is nuclear fuel outside containment vessel]

Fukushima plant manager Masao Yoshida’s comments to gov’t panel about crisis on Mar. 14-15, 2011: “It’s because the water, it isn’t going in. If water can’t go in, the fuel, it’s just going to melt away. It could be plutonium, it could be something else, but all substances amounting from the fuel are going to be released. It’s going to be a much more serious matter than the current cesium situation because all the radioactive substances are going to be released and dispersed outside. We’re imagining the collapse of eastern Japan. The situation is going to be more than a Chernobyl-class disaster, maybe not exactly like the film ‘The China Syndrome,’ but more like that. Then, we’ll have to stop pumping water into the No. 1 and No. 3 reactors as well.”

See also: Tepco: Reactor 3 melted earlier than reported, water went in wrong pipes — It’s confirmed water supplied by fire trucks flowed into pipes not leading to cores at the Nos. 1 to 3 reactors

More: Nuclear engineer given access by top official: “Molten ‘lava’ melted bottom of containment vessel” at Fukushima — Huge amounts of fission materials released into environment

Published: June 2nd, 2014 at 5:53 pm ET
By

139 comments

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  3. Study: Fukushima plutonium in playground 60 km from nuclear plant — “Proves that indeed Plutonium has been emitted by the accident” — Some “in the form of fuel fragments”? — Up to 14 Billion Bq of Pu-239 and-240 released (MAP) June 29, 2014
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  5. Scientists: Plutonium released from Fukushima “is of radiological concern”; Reactor must be source, not spent fuel pool — Study: Plutonium found 120 km from plant; “Pu and non-natural uranium certainly increased in environment” April 21, 2014

139 comments to Fukushima Nuclear Chief after 3/11: It will be like ‘China Syndrome’ film, fuel to melt away — “We’re imagining collapse of eastern Japan… going to be more than Chernobyl” — “Could be Plutonium… all substances from fuel are going to be released”

  • OldFool

    A slow motion "On The Beach" scenario is perhaps a closer analogy.

    • OldFool

      They really need to buy the properties at pre 3/11/11 values and evacuate the higher radiation areas. The kids especially.

      • OldFool

        They also need to tell the people the horrible truth and get them out, because the medical bills for the all the sick people are going to far exceed the evacuation costs. Lung cancer, leukemias and lymphomas are not cheap to treat.

        • OldFool

          Speaking of cancer, I wonder if any of the Tomodachi sailors or any of the residents of the Tohoku ever found any competent and honest civilian doctors to treat them for their obvious symptoms and cancers.

        • SS4U SS4U

          and that is exactly why those poor people are screwed.

        • Time Is Short Time Is Short

          You're assuming the Japanese government will allow these people to be treated at all. No, no they won't. Once the people show signs of 'radsick', the most they'll get is one prescription of pain pills, and they'll be told it would be better if they took them all at once.

          • OldFool

            When eventually thousands of people are dying in the Tohoku every month, I believe it will fairly difficult to cover it up without shutting down the Internet completely. Once they know they are dying, even the death penalty will not scare them into silence. So the truth will get out somehow. The thing that absolutely astounds me is the virtual total silence of the world's new media even after 3 years. I hope it does not continue much longer.

            • OldFool

              If the truth explodes soon, there will still be a benefit to gain by an evacuation. But if the news media is silent for another 5-10 years, an evacuation will be too little, too late.

        • OldFool

          The winds will blow the radioactive dust around Japan more and more as the years pass. In that sense, it will be similar to "On The Beach." As far as the rest of Pacific goes, it will probably be a number of decades until the radiation levels remove fish from the menu of billions of people. I would not expect really large scale cannibalism to start before then. So we will hopefully be very luckily dead before the real fun begins down "The Road."

          • RonM RonM

            I think you're assuming there aren't any more serious accidents down the road within our lifetimes,was anyone expecting a "WIPP" happening and is the problem there just beginning, what about the main cooling pond at Fukushima where they are somewhat so far successfully transferring the rods from the #4 reactor?

            Anyhow there is also the possibility of nuclear war and the extra fallout from that which as most all radiation in our environment is cumulative and if the PTB (powers that be) are foolish enough to actually continue producing power with Nuclear power plants seems to indicate that the radioactivity is not such an importance, anyhow it's all cumulative and the peacetime as well wartime and war based nuclear activity making bombs and testing them and also reprocessing and using depleted waste which isn't really harmless just "Depleted" from a "more" harmful level well you know our goose is probably cooked except for…….

            An space city which was in the news recently or biospheres here on earth if they are constructed before the radioactivity levels get too high , mars which may be colonized by 2023?

            smile radioactivity is just a reality of our dysfunctional world so turn on the tube go shopping and enjoy your life. The planet (which is also experiencing many other horrors from pesticides to plastics and that's just the P's, anyhow just smile it will all probably happen after we're dead,

            🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

          • We Not They Finally

            Regrettably, it WON'T be "decades" for the Pacific Ocean. The econology as a whole is already starting to collapse many species. As Chris Busby finally discovered, the bottom of the sea is already littered with death. And once the plankton goes, the next level up on the food chain goes, and so on and so forth. He seemed to speculate that the explosion at reactor 3 particularly, blew so much uranium and plutonium into the atmosphere, that it filtered down into the sea and then NOTHING was safe from contamination.

            "Decades"? No way. We don't have anywhere near that much time.

          • Time Is Short Time Is Short

            "I would not expect really large scale cannibalism to start before then. So we will hopefully be very luckily dead before the real fun begins down "The Road.""

            Very reliable sources have estimated that large scale cannibalism would start within two weeks of a complete food shortage.

            20% of the American population – roughly 50 million people – are on food stamps, mostly centered in urban populations. Turn off the food stamps and guess what happens (it did happen last fall):

            'Food Stamp Shutdown Threat: Obama To Incite Riots & Chaos?'

            http://swordattheready.wordpress.com/2013/10/15/food-stamp-shutdown-threat-obama-to-incite-riots-chaos/

            'The coming EBT riots: What will happen when government entitlements stop?'

            http://www.infowars.com/the-coming-ebt-riots-what-will-happen-when-government-entitlements-stop/

            We aren't more than two weeks away from 'The Road' whenever .gov throws the switch.

      • Time Is Short Time Is Short

        You're hoping .gov cares. They don't.

    • Time Is Short Time Is Short

      "A slow motion "On The Beach" scenario is perhaps a closer analogy."

      We're going to go through a 'The Road' scenario waay before we get there. McCarthy had no idea what was coming, and he called it.

  • davidh7426 davidh7426

    This is NOT an advert, I stumbled across this earlier, figured it may be useful…

    "Beyond Collapse – Surviving and Rebuilding Civilization From Scratch (Giveaway eBook)"

    http://www.allselfsustained.com/beyond-collapse-surviving-and-rebuilding-civilization-from-scratch-giveaway-ebook/

    Just follow the link approx 2/3 down the page to get the 455 page free Ebook.

    I just hope it helps someone, because the way things are going, we need all the help we can get.

    • davidh7426 davidh7426

      …think of it as my contribution to any future civilization.

    • HoTaters HoTaters

      davidlh7426, my family is thinking along the lines you are … how to rebuild society in the face of a total societal and economic collapse. If we even survive, we're hoping to have a "plan."

      The current socioeconomic worldview of what "works" is just pathetic. I never thought I'd hear myself say this, but I'm in complete agreement with people who say the social order needs to be thrown out. A new paradigm for sustainable economic development, a new order for society is imperative, or humans (and most likely everything else in the biosphere) will not survive.

      Thanks for your input. Will have a look at that.

      • HoTaters HoTaters

        Sorry, David, I misspelled your user name.

      • davidh7426 davidh7426

        Try the Tao Te Ching Verse 80

        "A small country has fewer people.
        Though there are machines that can work ten to a hundred times faster than man, they are not needed.
        The people take death seriously and do not travel far.
        Though they have boats and carriages, no one uses them.
        Though they have armor and weapons, no one displays them.
        Men return to the knotting of rope in place of writing.
        Their food is plain and good, their clothes fine but simple, their homes secure;
        They are happy in their ways.
        Though they live within sight of their neighbours,
        And crowing cocks and barking dogs are heard across the way,
        Yet they leave each other in peace while they grow old and die."
        – Translated by Jane English, 1972, Chapter 80

        Small, self-sufficient villages, private though not excluding visitors. Supporting the neighbouring villages but also self contained.

        Is that the sort of thing you had in mind ?

        Throw in Permaculture too.

      • "…the social order needs to be thrown out. A new paradigm for sustainable economic development, a new order for society is imperative, or humans (and most likely everything else in the biosphere) will not survive."

        +1

        • Time Is Short Time Is Short

          Yes, there are a few people that want a 'new order'. Worldwide, as a matter of fact.

          Do you know what that would take? Are you familiar with the French Revolution? Imagine that on a global scale. The people that created this mess aren't going to give it up voluntarily. Nuclear weapon sales are through the roof. Any country can buy them if they have cash, or even lousy credit at this point.

          We should all be very careful what we ask for. The key is to be prepared for the worst, and pray it doesn't happen.

          • We Not They Finally

            Unfortunately in the U.S., too many people think that throwing out the social order means resorting to their own private arsenals of guns. That could get very violent here. We're already the most gun-happy nation on Earth.

            • Shaker1

              Well, WNTF, I personally find it ludicrous for one to think that in the end they'll be the person with the most guns, enough bullets, and enough luck to rely upon such strategies. And, let's face it, there will be some manner of social entity. If the friends one has who has that strategy (guns, bullets, and luck) are of the same mind, can one really trust those 'friends'? That's not unlike the strategy of the social or state entity as collective definition that one is looking to replace, so it's just 'the king is dead; long live the king' in my mind. There are simply much easier and less stressful alternatives. A social order predicated upon fear doesn't impress me as a healthy one at all, either individually or collectively.

      • humptydumpty humptydumpty

        I would sum it up in two words: sharing & caring.

        • soern

          agreed, plus RELEARNING OF ANCIENT SURVIVAL SKILLS.
          Comimg generations will lack industrial products, current, internet and so on. Coming generations will need Informations about Tools, Herbs, Natural Laws etc. They will survive on small isles within destroyed land and will urgently need the knowledge "HOW TO DO AND KEEP FRIENDLY"
          My humble Opinion.

    • Odd Questioner

      Hello!

      I'm the original author of Beyond Collapse. The site changed the cover artwork (which is kind of disturbing…)

      The original PDF can be downloaded without having to sign up for anything. You can get it here:

      https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6e3oH1LuRvzeGZlTHRkeHZQSkk/edit

      Other download links can be had at my wee site here:

      http://www.survivalcivilization.com/?page_id=70

      Still working on the 2nd edition, but getting closer.

      Cheers!

  • bo bo

    So is the Asahi article part of a series?

    'IF water can’t go in, the fuel, it’s just GOING TO melt away. It COULD be plutonium, it COULD be something else, but all substances amounting from the fuel are GOING TO BE released. It’s GOING TO BE a much more serious matter than the current cesium situation because all the radioactive substances are GOING TO BE released and dispersed outside…'

    Leaves us hanging…
    If…if…

    • HoTaters HoTaters

      Yes, pretty vague, huh? And the entire inventory will be released into the atmosphere? When? Inventory of what? What "substances" are they discussing, and in what form? The fuel inside the reactors? The spent fuel? Other????

    • Down The River Down The River

      Hi, bo
      I got that also – "It's because the water, it isn't going in. If water can't go in, the fuel, it's just going to melt away."

      Sounds to me like they are telling us what they really knew during and immediately after 3/11.

      A three year old confession.

      Could the ”much more serious matter” have already happened?

      • Down The River Down The River

        I just read it again.

        The following is what Fukushima plant manager Masao Yoshida told a government inquiry panel about the situation at the stricken facility on March 14-15, 2011:

        "It's because the water, it isn't going in. If water can't go in, the fuel, it's just going to melt away."

        "It could be plutonium, it could be something else, but all substances amounting from the fuel are going to be released. It's going to be a much more serious matter than the current cesium situation because all the radioactive substances are going to be released and dispersed outside. We're imagining the collapse of eastern Japan."

        • Time Is Short Time Is Short

          The world will never 'fix' Fukushima. It is now part of our permanent existence – and there will be more.

          And that's the bright side. If the crazies that run this ship get their way, we'll going to have a full-blown global nuclear Armageddon. With the economies all going to hell, all that's left is to have unlimited nuclear weapons sales.

  • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

    Ugly reality that will be repeated every 7 to 10 years as more of these Nuclear Power Plants/Rattle Traps/Machines blowup on this scientific based fact and schedule everywhere around the world! 🙁

    • HoTaters HoTaters

      Someone here used to call them, "beach bombs" which I thought was an appropriate name.

    • Time Is Short Time Is Short

      I doubt it'll take 7 years for Daini to pop, Obe-wan. Soon Daiichi will be so hot workers won't be able to get onto the Daini site, then everything will really go to Hell.

    • Shaker1

      You're basically correct, obewan, about something of this nature becoming the norm. I commented the other day to Kashiko regarding the leaks that were found that the pipe they were showing was steel, and that steel was a sufficient material for its use, but the fact that it's sufficient is predicated upon a specific lifetime. We have hundreds of plants that are reaching their their design limits regarding lifetimes. Now, we all know you can keep an old car running for quite a long time, but eventually without overhaul it will be useless. Anyone know or care to try to overhaul a nuke plant? I don't know about anyone else, but I've never had a concept of 'forever' anymore than I've had a concept of 'infinity' (beyond examples in the output of formulas such as pi that to me are only examples of impracticality in use), but I'll be the first one to admit that I've a very poor personal concept of time. At least I know of that poor concept within myself, while those who would dabble with nuclear components in an effort to get something more out of them then what they will eventually cost certainly don't. They're running nuke ideas just like the corporations that oversee the machinery, as debt machines, which in the case of corporations is fine as they can declare bankruptcy and walk away. This is 'intelligence'? Not in my poor mind.

  • Ontological Ontological

    This time bomb was "not in control" even WAY before the 'accident'. These idiots slack on ALL levels I am surprised many MORE have not melted through like these did. Governments do not become concerned over these disaster issues, they only jump for joy, it is now the taxpayers problem. Cause it oh yeah I am sure that was the case, the EQ was arguably HAARP that caused such damage, it is more probable they were caught producing plutonium, and they yet again sabotaged their processing plant Same as they used a PU bomb to cover for the destruction of a JP PU purification operation during WWII. They being the NWO morons who insist they need the crap for the 'progress of man' in the first place. In all ways we all get to rot a bit further whilst they imagine their immortal immunity from all these issues being there for them somehow in there money. I for one am UNIMPRESSED with digits either zero or one in a data collection of EMPable electronics. Nope no feeling of safety there for me whatsoever!

    • HoTaters HoTaters

      Yes, Onto, the Fukushima plant was a disaster in the making from Day One. It should never have been built, given the faulty design of the Mark 1 reactors. The choice of sites for the plant was faulty, and landfill was used under the reactors, when the plant was built.

      Then there are all the reports of falsification of safety data, and so on, ad nauseum. It's a wonder the plant lasted until 2011, non?

      Sometimes this all gets very surreal. It's just too much to wrap my wee little brain around the implications, at times ….

    • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

      Pretty sure we here know just how ugly this will all get in the near future, since we have already seen the photographic results from several like previous Nuclear meltdowns/accidents and surely all of us know someone stricken with a nuclear induced disease and/or cancer.

      When women have to cut off both their breasts in order to just survive there is something sick about our new found Nuclear Technology reality. We have damaged this planet severely in just 70 years and there will be no easy fix for what we have all allowed these morons to do in such a short amount of time to this once pristine globe.

      We have supported many wrong technologies in the recent past and hopefully the world will awaken in time to change this direction and the course of this new found smartness that leaves no stone unturned. Progress has come with many problems, and/but, yes, we are smarter and let's hope there is enough of this new found smartness to make it a great future regardless of the damage already done.

      "Living in Heaven" should not have been allowed to be turned into "Living in Hell".. 🙁

      • Gasser Gasser

        Obe, I now called it Hellaven…Our Father who are’nt in Hellaeven the nuclides are in me, thy Kingdom is f—ing done, thy stupid Scientist will has been spun, hey Joe! pass me the self euthanizing gun, Amen.

        • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

          Hellaven is very appropriate!

        • We Not They Finally

          Gasser, respectfully, since not everyone wants to "self-euthanize" and most people have families they want to live, that's not a good joke, not a good song, really not funny at all.

          • Gasser Gasser

            Respectfully, WNTF, sorry to ruffle your feathers…please don’t read my post if they offend you, BTW it’s not a song or a joke it’s the truth of the facts of the matter…believe me many will be looking for a quick way out sicker than hell as this world wide FUBAR Nuclear boondoggle progress…Have a good day.

            Gasser out.

  • CodeShutdown CodeShutdown

    He told the hugely alarmed officials of TEPCO ‘Experts should be able to say something even in a situation like this.

    Out of deafening silence came a voice; "tell the hoe wold, Fukushima in code shutdown"

  • WindorSolarPlease

    Could be?? They all know what's been spewing.
    I have gotten to the point when they tell you something, it's a lot worse than what they are saying.

    • HoTaters HoTaters

      WindSolarPlease, that would mean the entire inventory of the plant is out, plus whatever the radiation has caused to "morph" into a radioactive state. That is, previously non-radioactive materials have become radioactive.

      I forget what that process is called. Would one of you who knows the term for this (Philip Up North, VanneV, Jebus, stock ???) please speak up? Sorry, I know I'm forgetting about some of you who would know what the scientific term is, for this process.

  • dunkilo

    Fuku is the devils rotting ,oozing,radioactive pus spewing out by the ton .I,as a witness to all this ,find it interesting how the world has turned their backs …. they maybe don't want to know?
    and pass the WIPPY pop while your at it .Looks like the devils boil!! How many more to come ??Breath deep 🙁

  • cooterboy

    "…we felt an overpowering sense of helplessness."

    That pretty much sums it up, including the rest of civilization. This sense of fear will continue, I know, for my life time and all of humanity will be held hostage for the next 250,000 years. I fear the worst is yet to come from Fukushima as;

    "It’s going to be a much more serious matter than the current cesium situation because all the radioactive substances are going to be released and dispersed.." All ENEnewser's know this but to read it in print from the plant manager is telling.

    Peace,

  • WindorSolarPlease

    Anyone know where we can get some cheap fans to line our coast with?

    It's no longer a question if this is going to do us in.
    It's a question of how long will it take?

  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    "With nothing we could do, we felt an overpowering sense of helplessness […]"

    TEPCO 'felt'..
    TEPCO needs to feel it ..NOW ..in real time.
    And quit deluding themselves ..and the world.
    The corium is x-containment.

  • chocalate_NSA chocalate_NSA

    Has anyone seen the article from Cannabis Culture. Can Mushrooms and Hemp save us from Fukushima?

  • Checkmate

    You know it is hard to imagine all the governments in the world and the UN more worried about a meteor hitting earth and how to defend against it…………..While the whole earth is being destroyed from Fukushima year after year!!!
    It is truly Mind-bogging…
    And to also think countries are lining up for possible wars! And fighting over oil! And what Syria wants and doesn't want or even Ukraine!
    Can anyone believe the madness…Well…Probably just as mad as NASA saying they are looking for water on Mars. When I was a kid I could have showed the idiots where the water was-through my telescope- the polar cap on Mars…
    If this wasn't really happening- it would make a great comic book. Kind of like what else can happen.
    I think the Mayans were right when their calendar ended- it was the end of us slowly.

    • Time Is Short Time Is Short

      We're going to look like Mars in the not-too-distant future.

      There are old stories of Mars once being a beautiful planet like ours, and they killed it up. Someday some alien race will say the same about us. Or, depending on your point of view, they're saying it right now.

      Keep an eye on the new crop circles. If we're finished, they'll let us know. A few years ago there was one that showed our solar system, and Earth wasn't in it.

      • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

        I'm not sure that such a large planetary entity as Earth could bif and not in some way destabilize the rest of the solar system.

        (Returning to the Ancient Beginning is starting to sound pretty rough.)

      • We Not They Finally

        Actually, the crop circles showed the EXACT planetary positions for December 21, 2012 as ominous, but nothing happened. I do astrology and charts now have to be shifted as though a person (born in northern latitudes) was born at a more southern latitude, meaning that the Earth now tilts slightly LESS than 23 degrees. Very scary for many reasons, including chaos in the individual lives of humanity.

        The crop circle about December 2012 MAY have been correct IF we were not already off course. Don't know how to measure any corrections for this even. It's very strange.

    • Jinxie1953

      We may die off slowly with radiation Checkmate but there appears to be another problem and that is the Yellowstone Park Super Volcanoe, the animals have left this area en masse or are leaving. If this goes up we are sure to enter a period of 'Nuclear Winter' conditions which situation will cause a complete die off of plants. I'm not sure whether this would encompass the whole world or not. Thing is, something is going to get us neither of which is a pleasant way to go.

  • weeman

    Could be plutonium, you think, you were using mox fuel it is a given.
    My question is how much plutonium was released and when do you think you will be able to tell us about the other radioactive isotopes released and amounts, please.

  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    I think the ice wall ..is very dangerous prospects.

    "Experts have warned that if something goes wrong with the walls, it could critically affect work to handle the contaminated water and decommissioning operations.

    In March, TEPCO submitted a three-page document in its application for NRA approval of the project.

    But Fuketa pointed out at a review meeting that the document fell far short of providing the necessary safety assurances to pass screening.

    The NRA told the utility to provide answers to 24 items that the watchdog is concerned about, such as the possibility of land sinking, leaks of contaminated water and countermeasures in the event the frozen soil thaws.

    The NRA is also demanding that TEPCO explain how the construction of the walls of frozen soil will be able to cut the volume of contaminated water.

    The industry ministry, which gave the green light to the project, was baffled by the NRA’s reaction.

    “We believed that we had already gained the NRA’s understanding,” a ministry official said."

    Work on frozen soil walls at Fukushima plant hits glitch
    May 17 2014

    http://ajw.asahi.com/article/0311disaster/fukushima/AJ201405170031

    Steel piping 30 m deep every meter..?

    The geological disturbance alone …

    This idea was 'railroaded' in.

    • Time Is Short Time Is Short

      No matter what they build, it will require humans to maintain it. They'll have to abandon the site within a few years, if that long. They will never have robots for that work.

      Just a massive publicity stunt for the nuclear industry, paid for by the very people dying from radiation exposure.

    • GQR2

      Dated 6/3/14
      "The agent in the piping system will have to be continuously circulated to freeze the surrounding soil, meaning electricity equivalent to the amount used by about 13,000 households will be needed to operate the frozen soil wall system.

      But there is no assurance that the frozen wall will reduce the volume of contaminated water by the levels forecast. Groundwater could still flow under the 30-meter wall and enter the reactor buildings

      Rain falling on the Fukushima No. 1 plant site could also become contaminated after mixing with the water used to cool the nuclear fuel.

      Even if the frozen soil wall succeeds as planned, TEPCO would still have about 480,000 tons of contaminated water–including 360,000 tons containing high levels of radiation–on its hands."

      http://ajw.asahi.com/article/0311disaster/fukushima/AJ201406030043

      i wonder if anybody tested how the cooling agent(the brine) reacts with isotopes in salt water?

  • GQR2

    The Ice Wall is fraught with peril and not gonna fix a thing.
    The ground could collapse and cause a sea side landslide,earthquakes. S
    Tepco kept proposing it in order for some entity to step up and stop them.
    Wonder what engineers signed off on the ice wall plans?
    The poor workers.

    • Shaker1

      Personally and respectfully, GQR2, I might think differently about the ice wall. I understand that it's something less than what one might wish for, but it is something. And, myself, I think that the sea claiming all this, at one time or another, is what is going to eventually happen.

      I really wish that Tepco hadn't given up on the English side of their handouts. Iori has a post concerning the ice wall (and a hail of totally useless comments attached to it) but not much more outside of the Tepco Japanese PDF. I hope ex-skf picks this up and translates some of the charts, as it seems, despite Iori's brave work, ex-skf is a more competent tranlator.

      I'm still rather disappointed that this will include the turbine buildings within the wall. I understand that they're a major leak point and there's likely much I don't know about their importance to whatever part they play in any mitigation plans, but I haven't seen the point of them being there at all. They're basically useless, from what I can see, just junk, and to me a sign of the lack of effort of isolation of the reactor buildings themselves.

      At any rate, simplyinfo has what seems an incomplete info, only publishing a portion of Tepco's handout, while Iori linked the whole thing.

      http://www.tepco.co.jp/nu/fukushima-np/handouts/2014/images/handouts_140530_10-j.pdf

      • Shaker1

        Might some of our Japanese brethern here help regarding more than the gist of the charts that I can glean from that PDF? If so, thanks much.

        • bo bo

          I can help. Download isn't working at the moment but I should be able to print out tomorrow and look at it.

          • Shaker1

            Thanks, bo. I'm particularly interested in the chart and its relevance on page 3. The others are pretty much self-explanatory. If you could just enlighten me about that alone, it's much appreciated.

        • weegokiburi weegokiburi

          Wish I could but my japanese isn't up to it.
          I often get the gist and flip about with machine translation but it's bloody hard work.
          Sorry

          • weegokiburi weegokiburi

            The devil is in the detail

            • Shaker1

              "I often get the gist and flip about with machine translation but it's bloody hard work."

              I understand what you mean, weegokiburi, which is why I generally don't bother with machine translations, especially with thinks like these charts. Honestly, one of the reasons I don't use the translators much is that I have a decided aversion to google and will go through much trouble to avoid any link to them. The majority of the charts are pretty easy, but in this case, I seem to missing the key that would give me an idea as to what might be its use to the other pages. I've a guess, but would like to know for sure.

              • weegokiburi weegokiburi

                I've been wanting to know more for over 3 years
                Why I first came here.
                Learned more science here than many years in school.
                More than I wanted to in reality.
                Time for work

      • Wyakin Wyakin

        Shaker1-I appreciate your willingness to use your technical skills to further analyze the pros and cons of the icewall as well as the depth of the ideas you consistently present here.

        I am admittedly a skeptic of the ice wall idea, primarily due to probable underlying Japan nuclear energy restart motives and uncertainty re. suitability of such technology applied toward the geologic characteristics at FU.

        Est. electricity required of such a project: 45,500 Mwh annually…I do not believe Japan is currently capable of producing such a quantity of excess energy for this purpose, without its nuclear fleet in production.

        http://nuclear-news.net/2014/05/19/fukushimas-ice-wall-massive-cost-massive-drain-on-electricity/

        The actual ice wall idea is not novel, and in fact quite old and proven: “In 1863 German scientist F.H. Poetsch patented a method of driving metal pipes full of super-cold brine (saltwater can go below 32 degrees without turning to ice) into the soil, freezing the surrounding ground solid as concrete. This allowed miners to dig in peace.

        The 1905 guide An Elementary Class-Book of Practical Coal-Mining touts its effectiveness in digging mine shafts through quicksand.” The principle of the Poetsch system is to freeze the ground around the shaft into a solid block, the effect of this being to consolidate the sand and hold the water back whilst the shaft is being sunk and lined through the wet ground.” Cont.

        • Wyakin Wyakin

          The mining industry uses essentially the same technique today.

          http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/09/04/fukushima-n-plant-will-be-surrounded-by-a-wall-of-ice

          The article referenced is not the strongest on technical narrative; I try to find information accessible by all those accessing this site without cost. Good luck and as always I look forward to your comments.

        • Shaker1

          Wyakin, I don't have the expertise to comment about the amount of energy required to maintain the ice wall, but concern for that amount of energy is part of the reason I find it exasperating that the wall needs to enclose the turbine buildings as well as the reactor buildings itself. I hope it's understood by all that my support is for lack of alternative. I believe that any diversion of what might be uncontaminated water is welcome at this point. I am not a serious proponent of restarting any nuclear plants to accomplish this on anything but a temporary basis while realizing that the devil is in such a tack, that once restarted they will much more difficult to stop. I'm well-schooled in the deterioration of intentions. (Might we all be so educated?) Personally, I don't see a point in simply 'giving up' in any way regarding this. As for the energy required, there are alternatives to nuclear which can be accomplished, albeit with some serious dedication and ignorance of the concern for 'money', and not without some measure of compromise of pollution. Honestly, I don't think those alternatives will be taken, though. If so, the building of those should have been started. It really pains me how poorly this has been thought through from day one, from the lack of debris clean-up to those damned tanks and now to the energy source for this ice wall. My only hope in its building is that it allows something to get accomplished, especially concerning spent fuel at the site.

          • Shaker1

            As for frozen rock and ground, I've read about it, and am familiar with their use in mining and tunnel construction, first becoming familiar through following The Oil Drum site and the great posts by one of its contributors, Heading Out. He's a site of his own, and here's one about frozen ground in his series on coal mining.

            http://bittooth.blogspot.com/2010/10/ground-freezing-to-stop-water-flow-and.html

            A site well worth visiting just for its general informational and educational value.

            • bo bo

              Shaker1 so I just printed page 3 out at my work
              There is a lot to cover so going to do this in installments

              First off – see where it says H26 & H27
              That is the Japanese calendar year – Heisei 26 & 27
              Corresponding to 2014 &2015
              The numbers below it are the months – so 6 is june

              • bo bo

                1550 is the total # of ice 'pipes' or whatever you'd call them – under that number the varying numbers on that column signifies how many 'pipes' will be installed in each 'BLK' ( the areas that you see in the map on page 2)

              • bo bo

                BLK 1-9 is in blue background – these blocks are on the 'mountain side'
                and BLK 10-13 is in green – these blocks are on the 'ocean side'

              • bo bo

                The red line at H27- 3 ( March 2015) shows all pipes start operating that time → that is the start of ice wall

                The red arrow below that that points further to the right simply notes: management of ice wall starts

              • bo bo

                Inside the white box , the 'map key' –

                Blue line – timeline of preparatory stage of each BLK
                green line – timeline of digging and set up
                purple line -timeline for 'other procedures / sidework' ( other than the pipe set up)

                I actually don't understand the red line which means – burying of areas that have been drilled through…?? Comes with note [ will be applied after adjustments to plan realization are made]

                • bo bo

                  That is, supposedly the red line signifies timeline for the 'burying of areas that have been drilled through'

                • bo bo

                  The very bottom of the chart – the yellow section – groups together timelines for 'side work'

                  Which are, from top down –

                  Setting up pipes for brine feeding system

                  Setting up of'Freezing plant' ( I imagine something like central cooling system?)

                  Setting up of monitoring system

                  Setting up of water pump/well ( source of water )

                  Final testing of completed ice wall system

                • bo bo

                  Then in asterisk at bottom – 'the listed number of needed pipes in each BLK is just a projection and is subject to change depending on situation at the site'

                  Ok, finished. Let me know if any more translation needed !

                  • Shaker1

                    Bo, thank you very much. That is very helpful and much appreciated. I hope sometime to have something to return to you for your effort.

                    • bo bo

                      You already have many times Shaker1, this is my small way of giving back what you and many others contribute here..!

  • Homo Insapiens Homo Insapiens

    A pale blue dot
    shouldn't have plutonium
    if life's to endure.

  • American Phoenix57

    How to Live before we Die.

    http://www.nwosurvivalguide.com/

    What to Take before we Eat.

    https://www.detoxicproducts.com/default.aspx

    What to Wear before we Breathe.

    http://www.approvedgasmasks.com/msa-affinyUltra.htm

    "There Is Still Time… Brother"

  • Well, I suppose our governments will ramp up the full blown extra fine reassurance trips to Japan now… with more high level PR princesses and puppets, to pose in fake control rooms all properly serious, steamy and safe in their white paper suits.

    Poor Paul….wasn't on the *A List* I guess. No paper suit. Just a little white hospital room.

  • Sol Man

    The problem with Masao Yoshida's description is that it was spoken March 14-15, 2011, and, so it describes what has been occurring since then, methinks. That is why they are getting the astoundingly-high readings. At least, those that have been taken in the relatively few locations that scientist have, and reported them.

  • Glow worm Glow worm

    I have often wondered at exactly what time/date did the corium exit the containment area? Could it have been 21st December 2012? Was this the beginning of the end of the World as predicted by many cultures. I'm not trying to raise the conspiracy theories again but I know I sold up and moved to where I wanted to be before 2012 and prepared for what might be heading our way. Kind of glad I did though the end of civilisation as we know it is not what I expected it to be. I never expected it to be happen overnight but to slowly take place over a number of years or even decades. Just never knew what would trigger the collapse. Guess we do now.

  • Nick

    In the China Syndrome, much of the theatrics revolve around vibrations in a coffee cup; the signs of a vibrated high pressure steam turbine.

    Now imagine 3/11/11 and the sounds of the high pressure steam turbines grinding to a halt, screaming in death throes.

    This was before any corium releases.

    When you consider that all nuclear engineers believe in containment of fission piles, it is strange to realize the silence in the media about reality on the shores of northeastern Japan, where perhaps a rip in space time is searing us all into a dark void.

  • Quisp Quisp

    "We’re imagining the collapse of eastern Japan…"

    Edgar Cayce, right again! He said that “the greater portion of Japan must go into the sea….”

    Seriously, this is freaking me out.

  • TheBigPicture TheBigPicture

    RECENT QUOTE ON NUCLEAR . . .

    "I don't think we have a technology here that can ever be safe"
    – Arnie Gundersen –

  • steel penny steel penney

    Kind of new here, been reading the news articles and comment posts; everything has been most informative but I am confused about somethings. With this artcle about the TEPCO official back in 3/2011 statements I get the idea that there were major (catastrophic) releases of nuclear products?? a 1/3 of Japan should have been evacuated?? is this confessing to what really happen and the seriousness was not addressed either by industry or government??
    I also have reviewed what I could about Unit 3's detonation. According to Arnie Gundersen the containment vessel could not have survived such an event; well if the containment vessel couldn't survive how could the spent fuel pool not be severally damaged (breached) not only from the explosion but tons of debris that fell into and around the fuel pool?? did the spent fuel pool go dry and melted down into the reaction vessel to join the corium there?? if unit 3 is in such bad shape how can they possibly keep the spent fuel poor full?? if the area is so hot how can they even know that the water they put into it cools the corium?? May be I am just ignorant, uninformed old man but I would appreciate any who could direct me in the right direction.

  • frogs go ribbit frogs go ribbit

    Maybe the Olympics will make everything better. /sarcasm

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