Fukushima plant “to keep contaminating the Pacific Ocean for the rest of time” if fuel can’t be removed — No good solution, must constantly pump out water from under buildings (VIDEO)

Published: September 3rd, 2012 at 10:48 am ET
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Title: Arnold Gundersen with another update on the unfolding effects of the Fukushima disaster
Source: KPFT Houston, If You Love This Planet Radio
Date: Aug 31, 2012
Description: This week, Dr. Caldicott brings on nuclear engineer Arnold Gundersen  [...]

At 19:00 in

Caldicott: If you put concrete on it, you know it’s going to keep going down into the water table.

Gundersen: Right.

Caldicott: And you know it’s going to keep contaminating the Pacific Ocean for the rest of time.

Gundersen: Right. So the solution — there is no good solution — but the solution would be to bore holes underneath and constantly pull water out from under the buildings.

[...]

At 23:00 in

Caldicott: You are sacrificing the Pacific by leaving this stuff there for the rest of time, which will leak and drain consistently into the Pacific.

Gundersen: You’re right. It needs to be constantly pumped out

[...]

Listen to the report here

Published: September 3rd, 2012 at 10:48 am ET
By
Email Article Email Article
58 comments

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58 comments to Fukushima plant “to keep contaminating the Pacific Ocean for the rest of time” if fuel can’t be removed — No good solution, must constantly pump out water from under buildings (VIDEO)

  • Mack Mack

    The Pacific Ocean —->

    * covers 30% of the earth's surface
    * has a surface area of over 65 million square miles
    * contains almost half of the Earth's water area
    * touches 25,000 islands, 42 countries, 23 territories, and 5 continents
    * is home to 4,000+ species of fish plus seals, whales, sharks…

    1. Japan's nuclear crisis is an environmental and health disaster.

    2. Every country affected by it should be concerned; and getting involved and working toward ending nuclear energy.


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    • AGreenRoad AGreenRoad

      Meanwhile, the cult continues to worship at the alter of the radioactive God, trying to convert the whole world to their 'religion'.

      The Art of Deception: The Cult of Nuclearists, Uranium Weapons and Fraudulent Science; via A Green Road
      http://agreenroad.blogspot.com/2012/03/primer-in-art-of-deception-cult-of.html

      IAEA, WHO, NRC And Others; A Web Of Deception? via A Green Road
      http://agreenroad.blogspot.com/2012/05/iaea-who-and-others-web-of-deception.html


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    • TheBowRiver TheBowRiver

      If this has not been addressed yet, I would like to jump in with some comments related to Helen and Arie's talk show.

      You indicated Arnie, that there has been a prompt moderated criticality (PMC) at Daichi.

      These PMC (fisson) events, you indicated, are moderated by the water slowing down the nutrons. I was under the impression that this slowing down raises the likelihood that the neutron will impact the nucleus of the ajacent atom.

      In essence, isn't this PMC similar to how the heat is normally generated in a functioning reator?

      Is it correct to indicate that the heat generated will be at least as hot as inside an operating reactor vessel without the huge volume of cooling water to keep it at 100 derees C.

      One glaring difference between them seems to be that, unlike the PMC, the normal control rods can stop the reaction process.

      Is one of the requirements for a PMC to begin, that there must be critical mass in the corium?

      In Chernobyl, if I recall, the reactor vessel was surrounded by a cylinder of sand which was released when the meltdown started and encased the corium in a glass structure.

      The Daichi reactors did not have this, so critical mass would occur more readily.

      Please, can any one poke holes in the above?


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  • StPaulScout StPaulScout

    If the Pacific dies, we all die.


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  • JustmeAlso

    The rest of time.. Does that imply 4,5 billion years?


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    • CB CB

      Some Beaches! Man, I'm about to loose it. God speed to you all.


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    • many moons

      The rest of human history might be just a few generations away…and the palnet earth? Will the entire planet be destroyed by the exploding nuclear plants after mankind has given up trying to force them to obey, after everyone has given up the ghost and the plants live on to destroy in many differrent unheard of ways.


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      • Time Is Short Time Is Short

        Yes, yes and yes.

        Btw, heard a story that there are more diapers sold in Japan for adults than there are for babies. No links, just a story. If true, it would be more of an economic disaster, rather than an environmental one. But increasingly, they go hand in hand.

        As the rad sickness kills the children, they don't enter the workforce to pay taxes, nor do they help assist their aging parents and grandparents, who require increased government spending, which isn't there. A full economic disaster.


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  • Time Is Short Time Is Short

    Umm, isn't the Pacific Ocean connected to all the other oceans on this planet?

    So, it's going to keep contaminating 'all' the planet's oceans for the rest of time.

    More obfuscation. Why can't they just tell the truth?


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    • AFTERSHOCK AFTERSHOCK

      @TIS: "Why can't they just tell the truth?" In a word…panic. The truth would send shock-waves across every level of society.

      Most of us are aware that they've decided (at the top) to shut-down any reporting on this catastrophe. This is being done to buy them time. They know (as some of us did from day one) there's very little to be done to address this catastrophe. From Gundersen's latest statements, it's evident the engineering community's also at a loss.

      It appears, we'll all have to endure more of these 'revelations' until such time as we're ready to take the steps necessary to ensuring any chance of our species survival. And the longer we wait before we face the harsh reality of what will need doing, the more these toxins will have had their chance to make it into everyone of us…


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      • moonshellblue moonshellblue

        Yes, people would flip out or would not believe or would demand something be done to fix it and I'm afraid that window has closed. Ahhh ignorance is bliss, tis folly to wise.


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      • richard richard

        My future – new sports car on finance, cut back on work days, splash out on the credit cards. Go to the beach.

        Welcome to dooms day survival mode :)


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      • NoNukes NoNukes

        I don't believe this anymore, I don't believe the censorship really has much to do with not wanting the masses to panic. At this point, I think that they could go on tv and announce to the world exactly what is going on, and it wouldn't change many lives, most people would shrug it off and continue the same way. Look at Belarus. There hasn't been a mass panic, a mass exodus from Belarus, only a 7% decline in population since 1989, but radiation destroys fertility. I don't think it has much at all to do with a fear of panic.


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        • koshkasobakina

          NoNukes – in the USSR citizens NEVER had freedom of movement within(out, too) the country. It is pretty much the same now. May be people can move a little bit more freely now because of the increase in corruption, but at the time when Chernobyl happened it was not possible just to move. I know, I lived in Leningrad at the time :(


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          • NoNukes NoNukes

            Well, the poor sure didn't, and poverty is everywhere now. Poverty is a main factor why a lot of people won't move as far away as possible from the source of the radiation. Here are a few of the things I don't believe anymore:

            1. I don't believe that such censorship exists because they don't want people to panic.

            2. I don't believe that West Coast radiation has necessarily been that much different from East Coast radiation, or from radiation in the border states next to Canada.

            3. I don't believe that there is nothing anyone can do to improve the situation.

            These are three of the main messages that I see repeated over and over, and I have come to doubt all three.


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            • AFTERSHOCK AFTERSHOCK

              @NoNukes: 1.) panic is not the only reason for censorship. I'd surmise economics would come into play if people fully understood the situation.

              2.) Not entirely sure if you're correct about the differences in contamination levels between these geographic locations. Of course, when you factor in how all foodstuffs are transported for consumption throughout these geographic regions, it makes little difference in whether one region is more-or-less contaminated, as we're all now being exposed equally.

              3.) agree that something can be done. Of course, doing anything does not always equate to accomplishing something. But I am with you that we can do something…


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  • "— there is no good solution —"
    – A. Gundersen

    Well said!!!

    "It needs to be constantly pumped out."
    – A. Gundersen

    And where will the contaminated water go then?

    :( Lets be honest, they will continue to dump everything possible into the ocean. They may not step up and say that, but they will do it, just like all the other countries with Nuclear Power have done and will continue to do.

    Let's be honest again. The costs, financially and genetically, of just this ONE FAILURE far exceeds any ill conceived benefit to humanity.

    It's far past the time to shutdown all Nuclear Power Plants.


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  • harengus_acidophilus

    "It needs to be constantly pumped out"

    And…?

    What to do with the water?
    "Purification" with duct tape?

    It's a question of survival to the hole mankind.
    "We" have to contain this "Fuku-Devil" (just metaphoric)
    or it will turn the world to darkness.

    TINA…

    h.


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  • TheBigPicture TheBigPicture

    Oceans contaminated for millions of years (literally).


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  • Urban27

    Is there any way to clean up such matherials? It is so enormous radiant, that it must be kept away at least hundred thousand years.

    The radioactivity itself is so strong that it makes it hot, that it need to be cooled for decades.

    If they manage to find these cores, it is not possible for a human to be anywhere near.

    Spent fuel is difficult to handle even if it is in its shielding, but melted cores that have been mixed with steel and concrete and salt.

    The cores melted core in Chernobyl is still there under the sarcophagus.

    Is there any company in the world, that offers such service?


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  • CaptD CaptD

    The Trial Of Minoru Tanaka: The high cost of investigative journalism in Japan & “the nuclear mafia http://www.japansubculture.com/?p=5397

    Why information about nuclear reactors does not appear in MSM, sounds familiar!

    So given the above, why should we expect Japan to start talking about how they are polluting the Pacific except to issue ever more "leak" reports that do nothing to describe the ever growing "TOTAL" amount they are dumping, allowing to leak and every other thing they can do to get rid of radioactive water…

    I suggested building a cofferdam about a year ago and then contain the radioactive water but they have been dragging their feet and all the while it continues to flow into the Pacific Ocean!


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    • andagi andagi

      Dear CaptD,
      Thank you for this facinating link! Such detachment from reality. Such coersion, corruption and control. I pray for all who care so deeply and devote themselves to discussing and searching collectively for answers here on ENENews.
      If I had my way, I'd wake up tomorrow inspired as to how to throw all these persons in jail and let the folks who really care start working! …if I had my way :)
      Aloha.


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  • CaptD CaptD

    More on Ocean dumping:
    Nuclear waste dumped at “SEA”
    Ocean disposal of radioactive waste:
    Status report: http://is.gd/tiugbX

    Maybe all that is now also part of our Background readings!


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  • JustmeAlso

    I mean to say,: people who think it all started with FukU.. think again… the world pre anthropogenic atomic pollution is in the last Millennium.. Who has saved some clean earth and atmosphere to make profit with clean food?


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  • In order to provide the reactors in Fukushime from the bottom you have the mechanical tunnel.
    Then insert the two meters in diameter with 20 tubes. , Do the holes from the top and side, and on the bottom line fire resistant ZrO2. For large pipes enter the small tube to remove radioactive leaks or cooling corium had reached there…

    http://www.herrenknecht.com/fileadmin/redaktion/PDF_Downloads/Direct_Pipe_Fly_GB_09-12-21.pdf
    http://www.herrenknecht.com/fileadmin/redaktion/PDF_Downloads/AVN250XC_AVN700XC_DB_GB_08-10-29.pdf

    http://www.new4stroke.com/herenknecht.jpg

    Certainly not the cheapest, but it will give guarantees that the radioactive materials do not enter the land and ocean


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    • Andres Arce Andres Arce

      The Russians had done something like this (for reaching the core), yet they needed several hundred-thousand people; Tepco would need some cash for it.
      I see all those (brave) Japanese workers hanging (primarily from the 4th reactor), and (I confess) if I don't believe something is, that round three molten cores a human being survives for long, for hours I mean.


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    • CaptD CaptD

      Salute!
      Yes, I bet your Company would have had it done by now!

      But then what would TEPCO "DO" with all the water they pump out??????

      That is probably why they are doing nothing to contain it except making a PR attempt to "collect" and process it…

      Yet another DEBACLE thanks to nuclear and the humans that try and use it…

      BTW: Did you notice that they are not doing anything near #5 & #6, I bet it is because they hope to restart those in the future! Nuclear FOOL$…


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  • Atomfritz Atomfritz

    I still don't understand why Tepco wants to wait until 2014 to ram in an underground steel insulation wall around the plant.
    This is just criminal.


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  • BringoutYourDead

    "Caldicott: And you know it’s going to keep contaminating the Pacific Ocean for the rest of time."

    This is not correct, just for the rest of OUR TIME.

    Peace to you and yours,

    BOYD


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  • tarpus

    Not to sound sarcastic at all but…is it too late to nuke the entire site with say a 10 megaton bomb or two and see what happens? I did see an article that said the US was planning on dropping conventional ordnance but didn't for some reason… I say get the spent fuel out ASAP and torch the place.


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    • The Blue Light.

      I really think you should go to bed at once young man especially with school in the morning, I guess that would be a primary school after reading your comment.
      To even think, never mind type, that vaporizing at least 10000 tonnes of high level nuclear waste, plus the nuclear material in two 10 megaton devices, and lifting that vapour up into the stratosphere as a possible solution to Fukushima beggers belief.


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      • HoTaters

        2 The Blue Light, there has been discussion since the beginning 3/15 or so) on possibly nuking the Fuku-Dai plant. Some speculation the fallout from nuking the nuke plant would be far less harmful than to let the reactors and SFP's come apart and spew their deadly stuff, unchecked.

        As for me, I'm not a physicist, so I can't speak to the possible merits of such a plan. Suffice it to say some experts think nuking the nuke plant would be a better option than "wait and see."

        Yes, as crazy as that sounds ….


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      • tarpus

        Wasn't my idea…and I did say remove the spent fuel first. It sure as hell wasn't my idea to build these god awful things in the first place. Seems to me it was the ones who payed way too much attention in school who did. I spent my time playing music, chasing girls (eww!). I don't see how letting it sit there for aeons and poison the ocean is any solution at all compared to vaporizing the coriums in one big go, at least they are underground by now …I guess I'm off to school, lol.


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  • Sickputer

    Don't strangle the messenger… Every idea should get a fair shake. Even ones that seem far-fetched.

    As I have said several times.. Do you you want your global radiation exposure fast and tough or slow and rough?

    Yes, it sounds insane to blow the island UNLESS it can be blown sideways into the sea with a cushion of dirt on top. Not vaporized…pushed into the ocean. Then come with a great armada of ships carrying boron and sand and concrete. Build a new mountain in the ocean.

    Drill directional wells from the mountain side of the island and set off several directional charges using neutron bombs to push the entire megaplex into the ocean.

    The benefits? No air emissions after the ships seal the debris. Why not do the same thing on the island without blowing it to the sea? Because ships can drop more cover fill than airplanes and the water can be a cooling agent.

    Why not let it just play out and leak forever into the sea? Well, there we are back to the old slow and rough scenario. Either way the radiation will have substantial victories. But do you want to take a chance on spent fuel ponds crashing to the ground from an earthquake? That will set off global plumes of atmospheric radiation straight across and around the world's wind currents.

    Nucleocrats have never been known to think outside the box.
    But things will change if the spent fuel ponds collapse and the plant is evacuated. Crazy ideas come into play when TSHF.


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  • Sol Man

    Why has the site not been buried in Boron?
    This can not be understood, to just let the situation keep getting further away from them and putting the future in greater danger with each passing moment. I'm beginning to believe that they do not possess a life wish.


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  • CaptD CaptD

    Regarding the solution to the highly radioactive water in Fukushima:

    Because the problem is of Global importance, I suggest that the Japanese Government immediately host a Conference of noted scientists to develop a solution to the pollution to the Pacific Ocean before it is allowed to get any worse! Each day that goes by yet more highly radioactive water is entering the Pacific Ocean at Fukushima and this cannot be allowed to continue!

    One solution they might consider is to capture the water and load it aboard large tankers to be slowly pumped overboard as the tanker sails IN A CAREFULLY PLANNED APPROVED route to truly speed up the dilution process by using all the oceans and seas …

    As it is now the Fukushima radioactive pollution is creating a dead spot off the coast of Japan due to the concentration of radioactive pollution that continues to be added there and that is far more dangerous to mankind than far, far lower levels spread over the entire Planet.

    Note: We all need to always use the words "radioactive pollution" instead of just "pollution" because one is quite different, than the other, ask The Japanese!


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  • CaptD CaptD

    Great News: Future of fossil fuels: Back-up for renewables
    http://wp.me/p26pKF-2Ff
    snip
    The two largest electricity utilities in Germany – E.ON and RWE – have declared they will build no more fossil fuel generation plants because they are not needed, challenging a widespread belief that the phasing out of nuclear in Europe’s most industrialized economy will require more coal-fired generation to be built.


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  • CaptD CaptD

    As I predicted above, they now want to restart Fukushima #5 and #6…

    http://wp.me/p21p6a-9b7

    Good Luck Japan…


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  • Thoughtwrite

    Why do this. excavate the area of the Fukushima site and move the contaminated material to a more stable isolated place on the mainland, or pick an island around Japan that can be sacrificed that can be insulated against leaching into the pacific ocean. the material can then be covered in leaded concrete and left to decay naturally.


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