Published: August 13th, 2012 at 12:46 am ET
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Follow-up to: Nuclear engineers urging IAEA to create "Level 8" on INES scale for Fukushima
Title: Scott Portzline Interview (Security consultant to Three Mile Island Alert)
Source: Coast to Coast AM
Date: August 12, 2012
At ~19:00 in
Level 8: Multi-source major nuclear accident requiring international assistance and monitoring
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Published: August 13th, 2012 at 12:46 am ET
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This is getting a bit warmer. But, in fact, a linear scale is extremely misleading, even if the descriptions of each level in the graphic (http://www.coasttocoastam.com/pages/portzline-images) give a sense of the difference in magnitude of disaster. At FDI there are essentially 3 level 7s and one more potential (FDI4), that's more like 7X3 not 7+1.
It's nice to see a new category though, that's for sure.
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If this disaster doesn't stop man from using nuclear reactors, lunatics are running the asylum.
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If they are? Does much of political history make sense any other way?
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We already knew this was the worst Catastrophic Nuclear Disaster, maybe others will understand this now?
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Color me shocked…
… NOT!
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A little late for this proposal and it will be a miracle if the IAEA even listens to them about something that pisses in their cheerios…
Maybe they will get it figured out by the next multiple meltdown disaster.
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Good morning, fair dinkum it is. Agree with GeoHarvey Level 8 isn't enough. This would rank as at least a 9 or 10, considering the level of harm done & ongoing emissions. And then we have full or partial meltdowns at an estimated 15 plants or reactors (?) in Japan.
The lying needs to stop so we can get an accurate idea of the real scope of the nuclear situation in Japan.
Yes, it's a good start, but even a Level 8 underestimates the seriousness of the Fukushima Daichi accident. There should be something on the scale for an accident w/o any technology existing for containment. And the scale should take into consideration the extent of the contamination (the full Northern Hemisphere, So. Hemisphere, too).
IMHO all the independent teams measuring the radiation levels over time need to pool their data and find some way to publish it in a scientific paper. It would be difficult to coordinate the effort, but perhaps some university research team would be willing to analyze and interpret the data. I'd like to see GIS mapping, with a time series analysis done. Again, a lot of work, but w/o this, it's hard to get an adequate response going.
'Pissin' in the cheerios. Yes, good description.
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And if not an international team, hopefully the independent researchers will begin to publish and get some recognition for their work. It's so irritating to see efforts to raise awareness hindered by the very organizations which are supposed to be there to help (like the IAEA).
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This is wrong. Eight isn't enough. We need a level nine for disasters that require interplantary assistance.
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Indeed. Let's just hope all of those little sun-bursts emanating from this planet 50-60 years ago attract the right type of aliens, not the type that will decide that ridding the planet of us is the best way to manage it!
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'they' were here long before that…
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it seems like most human species are quite content at this type of disaster or I should say, the end of world, as no one seems to be making much fuss about it or doing any actions other than bitter Japanese pregnant women protesting.
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we're all behind you cadugasita. Lead the way…
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Like i've said, just 2 weeks after 3/11: in future they will use a decimal scale with fuku as a 8 and a "never-to-reach" level 10 so they always are able to say: "This is not the WORST CASE"…
h.
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It will need to go "all the way to eleven" I reckon.
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This is more like level 28 (4 times level 7).
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Plus the spent fuel pools, and the full or partial meltdowns at other plants in Japan after 3/11 ….
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regardless how it's weighted, this is confirmation of what we've – all – been saying, since 311…
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"requiring international assistance and monitoring" is the news here, I think. It's an attempt to remove control from the nation-state host of a disaster. Implicit will be some new international bureaucracy to be "ready at a moment's notice to deal with future crises", sort of a FEMA on steroids, with FEMA-level effectiveness and accountability and a very large budget.
As we are seeing though, all the king's horses and all the king's men have no clue what to do with disasters of this magnitude (or greater).
SHUT THEM ALL DOWN
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@aigeezer: NWO machinations aside, back in the early nineties, I suggested this very thing to a UN representative. I instructed her as to how it would be organized and funded. (Her native country had just suffered an incredibly devastating earthquake and the response – both internal and international – left much to be desired.) Though she had the means, she never followed it up. It never ceases to amaze, how lethargic humans are.
I suppose when ones' bowl of cereal has a fly in it, then it's time to act. Forget that all-those about are starving…
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"lethargic"… I don't think it's that. Perhaps it's a cluster of attributes that add up to paralysis that looks like lethargy.
My sense is that most people put a lot of energy into this or that thing (growing roses, knitting, tracking baseball teams, whatever) that they perceive to be within their area of control. Somehow, while everyone is busy doing this or that independently, huge monolithic enterprises get built (governments, megacorporations etc.) by these very same people working at their day jobs. We/they then notice these things and complain about them. Somehow, we ants manage to build anthills that we don't much like.
There are huge structural changes in the offing, sooner rather than later, but I sure can't tell what form they will take. I used to think a crowd-sourced Net-based future was likely, but tptb are learning how to manipulate and control the Net. For a minor but startling example, did you know the top reviewers at Amazon are incentivized?
http://www.businessinsider.com/you-probably-shouldnt-take-amazons-reviews-at-face-value-2012-6
Perhaps the Net will evolve enough self-defense mechanisms in the spirit of Wikileaks, Anonymous and so forth, but until then we have to play the weird hand we've been dealt – somehow.
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@aigeezer: my take is most are simply terrified of going against the grain. In truth, such reserve is a sign of intelligence. We've long had a society (that's now entirely globalized) that utilizes murder (mass and individually) to quell any opposition that cannot be co-opted. Most have yet to grasp, the torture dungeon was simply moved from the cellar to critical patient ward. Fear not only ensures that malfeasance proliferates, but guarantees its arrival into each-and-everyone of our lives…
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Yes, AFTERSHOCK, the pressures to conform are truly amazing. Most people flirt with not conforming briefly in adolescence, get batted down, and fall into line for the rest of their lives. Some wag said that even teens all want to rebel in exactly the same way. Conformity must have served our species well overall in the past, but it sure seems to be letting us down now.
Hehe… neckties, ring fingers, breakfast cereals, lapel pins, SUVs, press conferences, mothers' day, throw the scoundrels out at the ballot box, pain at the pump, government secrets, pine boxes…. Let's all dye our teeth purple to show we won't take it any more – you go first.
Sorry – I'm indulging in displacement activity to avoid thinking about Fukushima and yes, it really is getting ugly out there.
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Before it is over, we may have to go to a logarithmic scale.
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@Flapdoodle: takedake's opening post suggest just that very thing…
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oh. Missed it being up all night.
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Unfortunately, the meltdowns are much more wide-spread than Fukushima Daiichi. I think it should be much higher than an 8. I don't think the mind can even comprehend how wide-spread the radiation damage is to the whole world. And governments are still building reactors in Asia. And allowing Russia to mine uranium in Wyoming is the death knell to all civilization and all life on earth.
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agreed anne…
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100+ People lost the instinct to be individual. now they choice to believe the lies.
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Dear Anne,
'I don't think the mind can even comprehend how wide-spread the radiation damage is to the whole world.'
You've brought it home.
Aloha.
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and now I'm agreeing with you andagi. That lone statement, pretty-much sums it up. And she's dead-on in pointing out the lemming factor…
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Dear Aftershock,
Thank you. You are highly regarded here at ENENews and your words mean a lot to me.
For all beautiful folks reading and learning about these dire issues, it is a challenging and highly personal trek… making time to learn about nearly incomprehensible information, reacting to it, questioning, reaching out to those around you because you have trouble believing things like this are real, your questions and words falling to the ground softly without response. You may go it pretty much alone, as I have done.
Yes, dear Anne is correct: 'I don't think the mind can even comprehend how wide-spread the radiation damage is to the whole world.'
But, for those of us who try, ENENews is a respectful yet personable, absolutely wonderful place to look your difficult answers to nearly incomprehensible and very real issues. Keep reading and sharing ENENews!
Thank you again Aftershock and take care
Aloha.
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@andagi: your sentiment is applicable to all out here. I've been online since its first days, back in the eighties. I even frequented BBS' before USENET came into being. That said, I don't bother with many com-venues; enenews being one of the few worthy of my time. This is one of the few sites which remains above the usual 'special' interests; its participants demonstrating consideration and self-restraint unknown elsewhere. I especially value how we remain open to the contributions of one-another.
I must also compliment this site's administration for their foresight and technical acumen. They've demonstrated that you don't need a cacophony of bells-and-whistles to produce an excellent website.
Thanks to all (including you andagi) for turning this site into the historic reference point on nuclear technologies, for all future generations…
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@aftershock
"…the lemming factor……"
its wise not to forget that!
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Dear Folks,
'Issues at Operating Uranium Mines and Mills – Wyoming, USA'
http://www.wise-uranium.org/umopuswy.html
Uranium mines in Wyoming -2011 article:
http://seekingalpha.com/article/246711-uranium-mines-in-wyoming-coming-closer-to-production-in-2011
Uranium One:
http://www.uranium1.com/index.php/en/
Aloha.
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Expect some African primordial soup into the meltdown:
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/NP-African_nuclear_commission_takes_shape-1308124.html
African nuclear commission takes shape
13 August 2012
A new commission to coordinate and promote the development of nuclear energy in Africa is set to become fully operational after key founding documents were finalized and adopted. South Africa has agreed to host the commission in Pretoria.
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And MSM will still be saying "worst since Chernobyl"…..
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SHUT THEM ALL DOWN. INSOLVENCY.BANKRUPTCY.BRAHMA's NIGHT(4.32 billion years of no life) has arrived.
8 is really saying it is infinity. All is lost. Show the full wrath of nature as it exists now. For the sake of some corrective action including infallibility in forbidding the propagation of persistent error and more. Let all those international nuclears get together and spill the beans in front of all. Like when people saw the full wrath of the Germans(and others) against the Nazis. The modern scale is infinity. See http://deathdealersnukes.blogspot.com
See the scale there as never before seen. Applying that method when some reliable data becomes available now, can we see the Fukushame as it unfolds?
Stop the nukes now. I cant see the wisdom of those who have cleared Kudankulam for loading enriched(MOX?)fuel. We require international action to stop such actions all over the globe.Simultaneously converge on the COUNTER SOLUTION now.Or NEVER.Please see the daily ramifications of possible further nukes exploding: See them via forest fires in Spain, buildings ablaze in London and Seoul, dam break in China, floods in Philippines and Assam, strong death dealing earthquakes in Alaska,Iran,China….And the state of constant dynamic diseqilibrium inside earth's crust as the surges induced by the cumulative action of changing dam contents change from one earthquake location to another after hunting for the next quake..and causing deadly explosive hits..another set of Fukushames.
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hi rama
bank rupsy you say?
"..Does it seem odd to anyone else that only five really big banks got such a warning?
And why keep it secret from the American public?
Does the federal government actually expect such a collapse to happen?
If federal officials do expect a financial collapse to occur, they would not be the only ones. An increasing number of very respected economists are speaking about the coming financial collapse as if there is a certain inevitability about it.
For example, check out the following quote from a recent Money Morning article….
Richard Duncan, formerly of the World Bank and chief economist at Blackhorse Asset Mgmt., says America’s $16 trillion federal debt has escalated into a “death spiral,” as he told CNBC.
And it could result in a depression so severe that he doesn’t “think our civilization could survive it.”
A former World Bank executive is warning that our civilization might not survive what is coming?
That is pretty chilling…."
http://etfdailynews.com/2012/08/12/why-big-banks-may-be-preparing-for-a-financial-collapse-faz-tza-xlf-c-ms-gs-bac-jpm/
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WORLDWIDE EMERGING ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES
AFFECTING THE U.S. MILITARY
BY
THE MILLENNIUM PROJECT
FOR
THE U.S. ARMY ENVIRONMENTAL POLICY INSTITUTE
JANUARY 31, 2011
",,CONFLICT AND POST-CONFLICT ENVIRONMENTAL SECURITY ISSUES
High cancer rates in Fallujah, Iraq; New Study Raises Questions on Environmental Damage
from Bombardments
Measuring Progress in Conflict Environments: A Metrics Framework
Economic Argument for Peace-building in Sudan
Artillery Training Charges Pose Environmental Asbestos Threat.."
http://www.aepi.army.mil/reports/docs/summary/AEPI-summary-July2010-January2011.pdf
an interesting read
especially about military using sustainable energy…
microbes that eat steel and more…
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@arclight
August 13, 2012 at 11:21 am
Thanks a lot for this illuminating lead.
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i downloaded it straight away
says alot
especially how worried they are about Busby and his investigations.. sounds like they were going to go with his recommendations, wonder what changed their minds huh?
fukushima and nuclear investment..
a heady brew.. imo
peace
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@ arclight
August 13, 2012 at 11:15 am
Thanks arclight for the info(the pretty chilling one) and Andagi on uranium mines.
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And the occurrence of more Fukushames may be aided by the capriciousness of windmills hooked on to the grids,making the response of dams to changing load demands impossible,leading to persistent blackouts.
See http://livingnormally.blogspot.com
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If we view the order of magnitude as for earthquakes:
an 8.0 on the Richter scale releases 31.623 times more energy than a 7.0
Might need an 8.5 for Fukushima NPP.
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They need a life extinction event category, because it can and will happen eventually.
12 reasons why all nuclear power plants must be shut down; via A Green Road http://agreenroad.blogspot.com/2012/03/12-reasons-why-all-nuclear-power-plants.html
Super Solar Storm To Hit Earth In 2013 'Carrington Effect'; 400 Nuke Plants Will Melt Down/Explode; via A Green Road http://agreenroad.blogspot.com/2012/03/super-solar-storm-predicted-to-hit-2013.html
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Our planet is being changed forever (ruined) because of a spewing reactor.
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Scales are wonderful, but they can in no way quantify a nuclear accident.The line I like the most on the scale is "requiring international assistance and monitoring". Please let someone intelligent take over for Tepco's incompetence.
As a backdrop to this Tepco has from the start of Fukushima's construction used General Electric and their technicians to solve their most difficult problems. The super technical or extreme radiation work was done by GE's workers for many years. Tepco wanted to avoid these difficult jobs so they let others do them. That has made them much less prepared to handle this accident. Bring in the experts please before you make this any worse than it already is.
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Somebody sie expects, establishing the scale yet for some the next accident??? Next time together may not be so much happiness, and the whole country will have to withdraw, or short and a pair.Maybe, however, will stop production of energy from the atom and then the new scale will not need USUALY
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I think GE,TEPCO and every other government that aided in this nightmare need to lose all they have so that it goes to global restitution for the victims,free global healthcare-no country exempt, and rapidly advanced cancer and herbal treatment and research methods.
Every person working in every building of all of those companies, no matter where they are, need to be patients used for medical research purposes.
I'd also like to see global medical marijuana legalization be enacted so those that cannot be saved can die peacefully and painfree. No country requirements,open borders for access, and no limits to method of use.
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