Fukushima Reactor Designer: I doubt plant can be decommissioned, perhaps enclose it in cement — Nuclear Professor: Solution is to pour concrete all over, but now it’s too late (VIDEO)

Published: November 19th, 2013 at 5:49 pm ET
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Associated Press, Nov. 19, 2013: “I doubt if Fukushima Dai-ichi’s full decommissioning is possible. Its contamination is so widespread,” said Masashi Goto, a nuclear engineer who designed the Unit 3 reactor and now teaches at Meiji University in Tokyo. “We should not rush the process, because it means more exposure to workers. Instead, we should wait and perhaps even keep it in a cement enclosure.” [...] “If you just put concrete over this, groundwater still will be flowing and things like that, and you have an uncontrolled situation,” [Tepco adviser Lake] Barrett said. “I just don’t see that as a plausible option.”

Arirang’s ‘Prime Talk’, August 30, 2013 (at 2:30 in): I think they have to be really opening up their minds. If it comes to nuclear disaster, it’s an international one. It never was a national one because nuclear disasters truly going over and beyond and above the borders. Think about the atmosphere, hydrosphere, oceans. But they realized this a little too late. Probably they were the last one on the planet to realize this is situation. [...] The solution again [is] concrete. Just think about Chernobyl, they just poured concrete all over.  Sarcophagus, that’s the solution.  And they should have done it a couple years ago, they actually lost the opportunity, because by now the soils are all too much contaminated.

Watch the broadcast here

Published: November 19th, 2013 at 5:49 pm ET
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127 comments

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127 comments to Fukushima Reactor Designer: I doubt plant can be decommissioned, perhaps enclose it in cement — Nuclear Professor: Solution is to pour concrete all over, but now it’s too late (VIDEO)

  • Bones Bones

    All we heard in the beginning was that it couldn't be encased in concrete like Chernobyl even in the beginning since it was "so different." I thought the soil, as shown by its' flooding, was determined too weak to support such a structure being built and about a million other reasons. Who knows what the true situation was, as if all human variables aligned perfectly and there was a point at which it could have been entombed, which why wouldn't it just eat through that, or was it just truly impossible. Also, did I read correctly the design contributor said radioactive leaks into the ocean would still continue and that would be ok? I must be reading this wrong.


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    • pinksailmatt pinksailmatt

      In order to "Decommission" any one of these 4 reactors, one would first have to re-define the word, and it would not include anything related to halting radioactive emissions to the air or water.
      Everything that has been done and said since day 1 of this disaster, has been done to buy time for the powers at large, so they could try to figure out a plan to prevent the blowback that will sooner or later happen from the people, who have been lied to for many decades.


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  • Grampybone Grampybone

    Entombment in concrete is a known (partial) solution for a 30% core melt in 1 reactor. 70 or more human lives must be used in order to set measures in place to pour material on the core. This must be done within 1 week of melt through. From a physics point, the nature of the disaster at Fukushima is uncharted territory. The best that people such as "We and I and Grampybone" can do is look at what is currently happening and calculating the amount of contamination. Currently it is not possible to really have a good idea of the true nature of a melted core in free fall through the ground. The chance for entombment of the cores may or may not be possible after 1 week of atmospheric exposure. They could begin entombment today, but the nature of breach in containment is unknown as well as the location of the majority of any core. Entombment also causes critical releases into the atmosphere that sparked Naoto Kan to avoid the option because he was told it would destroy all of northern Japan. The question now is weather it will destroy northern Japan regardless of entombment. The food products already tell that tale for us.


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  • Lady M

    Unless encasing in concrete includes installation of underground piping to divert groundwater/rainwater AND a whole system for continuous cooling and getting rid of gases, etc etc, it sure seems like the concrete encasement idea isn't practical. At this point concrete encasement seems kind of naive — like when a very young child is playing with a ball and someone puts an opaque box on top of the ball, and the child thinks the ball is "gone." Hmmm.


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  • jackassrig

    I thought in the beginning concrete was the answer. So much valuble time has passed and the groung is so soggy. One reason I know the ground is soggy is TEPCO has ply board paths on top of the ground so that the crains can move with out sinking. I saw this on one of the pictures. I think TEPCO could get a fleet of D9 cats and push dirt until the whole sorry mess is covered. But this might cause a criticality and the cores are still under ground doing their meanness. OH boy it slowly slipping away.


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  • AllenH

    Russia has already built a large steel structure to slide over and contain Chernobyl. As the concrete that was put on is now beginning to go brittle and break down from the radiation. It will never stop, once the cats out of the bag……


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    • Time Is Short Time Is Short

      And they are already planning the next sarcophagus that will go over this new one when it starts to fall apart in a few decades.

      How long can they keep doing this?


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    • mesa777

      At least Chernobyl site is stable enough to deal with! Corium located however corium still remains active for who knows how long……. At least no earthquakes to speak of, tsunamis, ocean front property, all no…. As long as the structure does not collapse we will be fine.


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      • Bones Bones

        Well, yes it is stable, but will it always be? As the others said, the entombment process must be a continual process and eats MASSIVE amounts of money and material and a huge team dedicated to JUST Chernobyl. How many other sites require this treatment? Too many to list? Decommissioning a reactor, that has had a catastrophic meltdown or partial, seems to be impossible. By decommission, I mean just what the word means; The removal and neutralization of all radioactive isotopes, radioactive material, and the entire building itself. The word already is a lie. What single reactor can be left to nature with no human intervention AND ZERO releases of radioactive isotopes? I honestly am on the fence here. We know the fuel can't be decommissioned so the plants can't either since we can't "neutralize" radioactivity so the plant parts get buried, but still are radioactive. Until radioactivity "neutralization" technology exists, I just can't see the word decommissioning to actually apply to any nuclear establishment.


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        • farawayfan farawayfan

          Sadly, the only way to "decommission" nuclear products is to get them off the planet. No current technology exists with the margin of safety needed to accomplish that. Only a space elevator might be able to steadily remove the contamination, we "only" have to develop a vast number of tachnologies for both the moving of currently unapproachable radioactive products and the space elevator, which may in reality simply be impossible. At ten years old I remember thinking this was the stupidest power production scheme I'd ever heard of. Haven't changed my mind in the decades since…..


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          • AllenH

            Right now the cost of fuel for each kilogram of weight sent into space is way too expensive. And these rockets are also not so reliable as we have seen from space missions. But it they could get a space lift to work it would help. But surely there are things in the black-ops that could help? But perhaps large scale death is the plan. And they don't need to worry then. Just I don't see how they think they could survive it.


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  • dosdos dosdos

    I wish people would forget the word concrete in regard to Fukushima. It just shows the ignorance of the speaker or writer.


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    • Oh, I suspect there's a clever stew of concrete, zeolite, boron, some nifty nanofiber stuff and binding resins they could concoct to pour down the blow-holes. Maybe use a few feet on top of the rubble once they've flattened everything too. THEN go for a good layer of 'crete, then a capper of something like it made with ground galena (lead ore). They'd have to do the big permanent seawall and backfill that too, of course, make it "one with" the entombed facility. Then some nifty lead-ceramic brick pyramid, every brick cast with skull and bones…

      Hundreds of years away, of course, and the groundwater must be permanently dealt with first. Still, I suspect it can be done. If there's anybody left after those hundreds of years to do it, that is.


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    • Bones Bones

      What specific word would be appropriate. Obviously the concrete is not the concrete we would normally use to build a house or whatever and even those concretes have all types of different compositions for specific applications. We aren't stupid, but the patronization could be left at the door. What word and what exact mix of "entombment concrete" would be appropriate?


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      • Bones Bones

        Sorry DosDos, I thought you directed that at the commenters, but seriously, what is the specific mix for the concrete they would use. I would assume neutron absorbers etc., but it's not exactly something you just buy at Home Depot. Maybe there is a name for it? I'll see if I can find any info on the concrete's, yes it's concrete since concrete has tons of different compositions but I understand what you mean now that most readers would assume "normal" concrete, specific mix of materials. I'll report back if I can find any info. If we knew the properties of this "concrete" :-) , we could more accurately gauge the feasibility. I don't like the idea because it takes focus off the immediate problem, besides SPF4, and that's three molten cores on the loose which we have no idea where they are making the whole concrete issue a mute point at this point in time. It will be a loooooooong time till anything semi-permanent is stopping releases.


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  • Socrates

    Nuclear engineer Suh says that until Hell freezes over TEPCO would need frozen wall, and that would be until 10,000 years.

    Good place to hold Olympics. Not!

    Instead maybe Obama can give a speech saying there is no immediate health concern. He already did that? Lung cancer idoesn't happen immediately so he is correct.

    Politicians are not scientists except Carter who knew what to do.


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  • We Not They Finally

    Lake Barrett says TODAY that even dumping concrete would leave "an uncontrolled situation" on account of groundwater? So what about all his OTHER statements are not complete self-admitted lies? Why don't people like him AT LEAST do what Gregory Jackszo did that got him fired from the NRC?

    And now with this statement, he has all but ADMITTED coriums melted into the ground. Otherwise, why would flowing groundwater be an "uncontrolled" situation?? It is only "uncontrolled" if there is a permanent, ongoing radiation spewing from under the ground?


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  • Gradius

    Like I said, there is no more solutions. This is totally irreversible. We are DONE FOR. The only question remains is how much time we still have? I think 20~30 years, but still need more data to know better. I'm pretty sure few guys know.


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    • Gasser Gasser

      @ Gradius and other pragmatic thinkers;

      I logically recognize within that 20-30 year time span or shorter, there will be many key top public emergency service officials that have died, and there will be few if any to replace them, because those replacements will become sick beyond going to some tech School/College to learn replacement skill's, but there will be few if any teachers left…this lesser service replacement manpower domino effect will happen in every crucial occupation World wide…once the Forest, Towns, Cities, and they're deadly chemical stocked industrial zones around the World start burning, this will pump a Nuclear smoke choking witches brew into the Krypton 85 lowered atmosphere, this will smother every living thing, as it's mega-storm whipped acidic rains began to dissolve what's left…after 25 years, if a clan of people peers out the blast proof door of their well stocked Billion dollar cave fortress, it will look like Mars with cement city skeletons on a desert wasteland…IMHO.


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      • mesa777

        Sad to say but you may have the workings for a great motion picture, very depressing indeed. Find coriums, contain coriums somehow, majority of problem contained. Anyone know the total weight of a nuclear spent corium? I assume it is possible to contain with great loss to life.


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        • Gradius

          mesa777: you can't "contain" the coriums, they are radioactive lava much worse than it happened in Chernobyl. Keep in mind 3 them exploded and part of that went into the environment, including the Ocean! Once fused is impossible to "turn off" and "contain" in any type of form and shape. Is way too much radioactivity (into billions RADs), too hot, probably over +10,000C, no one ever knows what fusioned Plutonium with salt water and a lot more for almost 3 years would produce, but pretty sure is something 100x, 1000x or perhaps even more toxic than regular Plutonium. Even if it were possible, they dropped 410,000T of highly radioactive water directly into the Ocean! You can't get rid of it, since is impossible "trap" radioactivity once is on the ocean/water. Is the end, really.


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          • mesa777

            Were screwed then! Need someone with technical expertise to.chime in here. Anyone with a physics degree able to give opinion as to what in all likelihood is going on here.


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            • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

              Mesa..here are your experts, so not one will come here and share anything..nada.
              http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Safety-and-Security/Safety-of-Plants/Safety-of-Nuclear-Power-Reactors/

              Here are some of their results seen around the world. Now.. who do you think is telling the truth, us or them? Notice the key line primary disease mentioned..cancer!
              http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2483484/Toxic-nuclear-waste-dumped-illegally-Mafia-blamed-surge-cancers-southern-Italy.html


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              • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                Mesa, this is what is going on here, now remember you read what the official web site physicists stated correct? They are all lying through their teeth! :(
                http://www.ratical.org/radiation/Chernobyl/


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                • unincredulous unincredulous

                  Check this article on ratical

                  Chernobyl: Consequences of the catastrophe 25 years later,
                  by Janette D. Sherman, M.D., and Alexey V. Yablokov, Ph.D,
                  San Francisco Bay View, 27 April 2011

                  " The most serious effect of the Chernobyl radiation is to the brain and is a major medical, social and economic problem for the affected individual, the persons' family and society at large. . . .
                  Inexplicably, WHO had a special project on brain damage in the Chernobyl territories, which was abruptly stopped after the first definitive results. It is becoming clear that low-dose and low-dose rates of radiation have a profound effect upon fine structures of the nervous system, upon higher nervous system function and upon neuropsychiatry function. . . ."

                  Maybe the Japanese brains are fried. No wonder they are lying and finally fessing up at times. They have become compromised by the radiation exposure. Is it time to declare them insane and insist on accepting international aid?


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              • "There have been three major reactor accidents in the history of civil nuclear power – Three Mile Island, Chernobyl and Fukushima. One was contained without harm to anyone, the next involved an intense fire without provision for containment, and the third severely tested the containment, allowing some release of radioactivity.
                These are the only major accidents to have occurred in over 14,500 cumulative reactor-years of commercial nuclear power operation in 33 countries.
                The risks from nuclear power plants, in terms of the consequences of an accident or terrorist attack, are minimal compared with other commonly accepted risks. Nuclear power plants are very robust. "

                Compare this to the DOCUMENTED and proven 100+ nuclear accidents and meltdowns in our video and article links at the top of this thread..

                Now, who are you going to trust?

                Who are you going to believe when they say ANYTHING?


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            • OldNuke

              When you actually get someone with some expertise, your amateurs shout them down. That's why you're running around in the dark. I usually don't read all these comments but today, I had a bit of time to waste, and your comment struck me funny.


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              • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                Pray tell OldNuke what struck you so funny the cancer, the mutations or the gross deformities of those millions of people. Please be clear so we can all have a good hearty laugh. Just which of these nuclear contamination causing categories is such a hoot/funny/hilarious too you and all those Nuclear experts running around out there?


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                • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                  Old Nuke I am still waiting. :)

                  I have a few female friends going in this week to have their breasts cut into and/or cut off. They both are looking forward to the chemo that will follow and the whole loss of hair thing and the secondary cancers from the radiation treatments that you and all your buddies say are so very safe? These gals are all laughing all the way to the hospital and they think the whole thing is very funny. Just think of the wigs they can now buy! My brother enjoyed being hung upside down like a pig and when he came out of his drug induced stupor he could not stop laughing. He said it was all a hoot/funny/hilarious until the MRSA set in requiring 2 straight weeks of antibiotics after which somehow now he is diabetic. He says he loves the shots and they are funny too. Nothing but fun he says and he too thinks its all so funny and a hoot/hilarious.

                  All these people say they want to do it all over again like the good little guinea pigs they are now. They hope they can live longer and go through more pain and suffering for your and your buddies enjoyment.

                  And too think these people lived very healthy lifestyles too!

                  It's all just so/too funny! :) :)


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              • VanneV anne

                Laugh all the way to the grave.


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          • Gasser Gasser

            A primary molten Corium lava type blob is roughy 100 tons going at the speed of forced heat rock melting gravity power, seeking paths of least resistance in all directions on the basement floor melting it's way through the service plumbing or EQ cracks out the reactor building melting it's way through the man made supporting reactor load bearing strata in many directions but always being gravity directed downward forever, cycling through off and on critical stages in it's many tributary rock melting blobs.

            When I ride my KTM dirt bike upon on the live Kalapana lava flow, I see this melting oozing action of lava lobes that pop up from cracks in lava tube roofs and travel till they disappear into a big crack somewhere else only to ooze out again…take note that MOX Uranium-Plutonium is much, much, heaver and hotter than molten Basalt rock and can be as fluid as Mercury internally.

            These Corium's are irretrievable, the Worlds Oceans are being never-ending compound contaminated, the Atmosphere is being Krypton 85 compressed, and the Sun is now in the throws of switching magnetic pole's as our North is also migrating South.

            Yup folks the perfect bad shit storm is looming…contemplating reality through commonsense atheistic pragmatic logic, you know that scary truth shit, that fills 'before I die' adventure dream list in the procrastination bucket.


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  • weeman

    Fukushima and Chernobyl are two different accidents, main difference one is immersed in water and one is air cooled, big difference and you can't build a sarcophagus on unstable ground.
    You must map the corium before any plan can be established if possible?
    Any solution must completely surround corium and use a closed loop and filtration cooling system to be effective.


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  • butler43

    I agree with the comment "stop using the word concrete". What happens if something goes awry? Now everything is covered in concrete you can't get at anything. Also, the corium is long gone – that's how they say it's in cold shutdown – the thermometer is far from the heat source!
    I doubt there's a solution in the near future – just more attacking each problem as it arises and hope to hide the worst.
    What we really, really need is honest reporting or reporting of any kind. We also need constant radiation monitoring and checks of our food, water and milk.
    I really wish that the authorities would start to look after the children. The adults have the ability and brains to look after themselves but children do not and they are most vulnerable. It's sickening and I'm sure as time goes by Fukushima will go down in history as the worst radiological disaster of all time. Let's keep our collective fingers crossed that they don't screw up the defueling. Praying seems to be about the only solution we have – a good concrete solution LOL!


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    • Grampybone Grampybone

      "We and I and Grampybone can prove this event was a nuclear detonation in units 1-3+Spent fuel pool 4. The shock to the concentrated neutrino clusters caused them to fission and fusion on to each other with Plutonium hyperthermal bonding Iron and other unknown physical states only found on our sun. The nuclear event in the core was like no other nuclear event ever observed by science. The brightest minds in the community seem to only have theories of how this kind of event happens. Too bad Edward Teller is gone, he could explain the explosions thermonuclear properties of Fukushima better than anyone alive today.


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      • Heh. Maybe they'll succeed at CERN to produce that mini-black hole they've been aiming for. Put it in a box and fly it on over to Japan, feed Fukushima and the whole chunk of northern Japan it's hopelessly contaminated to it. Sure, that'll make it a bit bigger, but then we could fly it off to Jupiter or Uranus. It'd be millions of years before it got big enough to eat the inner system and sun, I'm pretty sure. By then we could have moved a few solar systems away… §;o)


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    • maybesomeday

      Yes, stop using the word "concrete" in context with a Fukushima fix. Much preferred is the word "antidepressant". Happy smile & no worries!


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  • Sol Man

    Do we really want to know how much time we've got?
    If yes, then we must monitor what is happening in the birthing rooms.


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  • mesa777

    Whom ever suggested concrete entombedment is correct if we were land based in a place such as Chernobyl with little to no plate movement, however Fukushima being steps to the water is a completely new situation, you just can't concrete our way out of this problem. There may have to be human sacrifice made here in the name of humanity to somehow contain the three coriums that are currently escaped from the plant… Japan is very close to complete evacuation at any time if either a new large earthquake strikes or the spf in #4 comes into air contact, either way were screwed. The coriums are the key to the problems, contain the cores and you contain the main problem….. GW


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    • VanneV anne

      If the coria are already a mile down (and using deep-earth tomagraphy with HAARP they already know how far down it is and where it is), there is no way you can contain it. Was it possible in March, 2011? I doubt it. Because they used MOX fuel and the SFPs had so much plutonium, I suspect that it was so hot with radioactivity after the first explosion, and certainly after the second explosion, there is no technology that can deal with a MOX detonation and meltdown.

      This is probably why they are pretending to unload the fuel at SFP #4. They desperately want the contracts to build more and more nuclear power plants around the world. Everyone knew 40 years ago that Fukushima Daiichi would eventually fail. But the people in charge just want to make money as much and as fast as possible and they have never cared about the consequences or the people sacrificed on the altar of their idol–money, power, and the blue Cherenkov glow. All the great nuclear scientists have warned them to not use nuclear weapons and not produce nuclear energy. But neither the military-industrial complex nor their minions ever listened to sage advice.


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  • Jebus Jebus

    You know, I look around me and I see everyone living in a fantasy land, looking down at their virtual fondleslab world. A place where you can go to the movie theatre and see fantasy films. Fantasy films such as pandoras promise.
    But when those same people walk out of that movie theatre, they walk out into reality. A reality that is pandoras curse. A curse, that is now very real and forever…


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  • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

    This would not be advised unless all Nuclear Power Plants worldwide are shutdown and then we should sacrifice humans, but not until then. Why should a few or any die for the many if the whole process will simply repeat again in the near future? Humanity must now make a choice…shut them all down!

    "There may have to be human sacrifice made here in the name of humanity to somehow contain the three coriums that are currently escaped from the plant"


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  • rogerthat

    The Sydney Morning Herald said on November 9: "On Thursday several Tepco spokesmen and plant superintendent Akira Ono took pains to say the removal process would not be risky or, in Mr Ono's words, 'particularly dangerous'.''

    On November 18, from Mochizuki: ''According to Tepco, the maximum output of the spent fuel stored in reactor4 pool is only 1 kw, which can only work a hair dryer.
    "They stated even if they drop a fuel out of the cask, it wouldn’t cause the further radioactive release.''

    This view appears at variance with the current rash of warnings that we are on the edge of an apocalypse. Maybe the fuel has left the building, and that inviting pool will soon be open for swimming?

    Today Mochizuki has the Tepco film of the removal of the first unused fuel rods, and notes that the top and bottom of the container has been pixelated out.

    A


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  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    "[Tepco adviser Lake] Barrett said. “I just don’t see that as a plausible option.”

    Wasn't Lake the guy the US sent to help fix Fukushima?
    This is what he gets paid for..huh?
    Now what??

    DARK SHADOW OF CHERNOBYL TOUCHES FUKUSHIMA / IT'S TIME FOR ACTION
    Nov.18 2013

    http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2013/11/18/dark-shadow-of-chernobyl-touches-fukushi


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  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    PS..Lake Barrett should sit down and shut up…now.
    Quit being so damn annoying..


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  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    Too late..and what are/can you do about it..Lake Barrett?
    The answer is nothing.
    Nothing but yap.


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  • Shaker1

    I can't see the logic in any concrete containment in this environment, even, and especially in the first days. Logistically, there wasn't a chance in the first days by any stretch of my imagination, and once to melt began, unless water could be controlled, concrete would be just a band-aid covering a festering sores contaminating the body.

    But he's right regarding the first days. I can understand having to deal with the overall devastation from the tsunami and that one mind can only grasp so much at once, but the urgency and committment just hasn't been there at the site. They were typically human, working with hope, from the best-case scenario to the worst, 50 to handle what 5000 probably couldn't, and, again, a logistical nightmare.

    All in all, I do understand even if I can't be very forgiving. But for the life of me I can't understand why it hasn't dawned upon them yet and I can damn them for not making the sacrifices they can find so easy and 'necessary' in an endeavor like war.

    Admin, I have a question. Why no coverage of what they're doing in Unit 4 other than the speculation about what could happen? Even if the whole things a show, isn't that a physical act that deserves notice?


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    • babbo dorian babbo dorian

      Shaker1,
      I think it's a stage for pone in two purpouses…
      1. Everything done perfectly so olympics can be performed perfectly or,
      2. They are going to justify the imposible to cover high radiation in the world,
      If the second, we must wait a few days to see ….
      Good luck,


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  • sunpower

    So many have bought into the idea that melted fuel is the same as corium, but it is really only one component of corium, and a precursor at that. As I have urged people to do many times, please view the Russian video from the basement of their sarcophagus. You will see that in fact the Russians did not dump on concrete at their meltdown. They did build a reinforced concrete structure over the site, known as a sarcophagus, which is not a hermetic oontainment at all.
    You will see if you bother to review the Russian video that coriums are solidified pahoehoe and not molten. The fuel WAS molten at one point, when it melted itself, zirconium, and the available sand insulation, and flowed by gravity. You can see it flowed out of pipe ducts without melting the pipe ducts and deposited itself on a basement floor slab. It did not burn through the ducting or floor slab. Here for those who have the eyes to see is the primary evidence of what corium really is and what happens to it. It is a glassified composite. Lord only knows why Americans push the China Syndrome fallacy long after the movie theatre has emptied out into the real world.
    The site at Daiichi is waterlogged because of the incessant idiotic water pumping. If the melted fuel at Chernobyl was not able to burn through the pipe ducting or floor slab, the melted fuel at Daiichi was unlikely to burn through the many feet of solid concrete under the RPVs.
    No primary evidence exists to contrary.


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    • moonshellblue moonshellblue

      After watching black smoke spew from numerous cracks in the soil between the reactor buildings I think some of the corium has already penetrated the ground. I don't think you can compare this to Chernobyl as there is a wide array of variables such as Mox fuel, the location and the fact that the land is now basically a radioactive swamp. It's like comparing bananas to man made rad contamination highly inaccurate. IMHO


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  • sunpower

    People who enjoy history can always review the NRC FOIA to see the early discussions on applying a grout slurry to unit four which was reported venting to the atmosphere. They can find the NRC warning that application of sea water would spread the radiation from its point source. Tepco has kept the site in contamination since and is propped up in its management by a weak ad hominem murmur attacking entombment.
    The hard facts on the ground are that Daiichi can not be remediated with any of the plans Tepco has come up with. Daiichi remains an open lesion point source. Besides a nasty gamma shine, which Daiichi will 'own' until the next glaciation, there is all that plutonium.
    We could go back to conceptualization of nuclear power to understand their plans for this site are very dark, with no human future, as at all NPPs. The designs make no sense, despite the lies of Fred Macmurray to his son overlooking construction. It is almost as amazing to me that people would believe in the China Syndrome based on a movie, as they would believe Einstein was a genius and that the atomic debacle now depends on another fission pushing 'messiah' to tell them whassup with nuklar. I wish people were literate enough to read the history of fission and its demonic patronage.
    http://jenniferlake.wordpress.com/2010/11/08/atomic-power-no-contest/
    You might just as well believe Lake Barrett or Tepco.
    Me, I'll take what was done with concrete at Savannah and…


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    • unincredulous unincredulous

      Your linked page, jenniferlake, is interesting reading.

      Here's an example:

      As Einstein said, “it is not absolutely certain that every question admits of rational answer” but it was certain that the power unleashed by atomic weapons would force the creation of world government:
      …”resistence by the unscientific will be doomed to obvious failure. The society of experts will control propaganda and education. It will teach loyalty to the world government and make nationalism high treason… It is possible that it may invent ingenious ways of concealing its own power, leaving the forms of democracy intact… whatever the outward forms may be. all real power will come to be concentrated in the hands of those who understand the art of scientific manipulation.” [B. Russell, The Scientific Outlook, 1931]


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  • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

    sunpower we are not dealing with like incidents and or identical meltdowns/landmass or procedures used. I have to chuckle how you dismiss the potential of a "China Syndrome" where these core melt outs may have left the building. I have posted links in the past that demonstrated such potentials in experimental like conditions. Unless we see these corium blobs of molten fuel visually we should not rule out/speculate about anything or any true possibilities..


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  • Shaker1

    I think Chernobyl had lessons, and I do believe that you may be correct about the water in the SFPs, and in the containments after the melts, that the water actually exacerbated the situation once the deal was done, in my mind supplying whatever was there with a source of hydrogen and steam. For instance, they could have let the zirconium burn, and without water hydrogen generation wouldn't have been on the scale seen. The power of steam explosions shouldn't be ignored either.

    They had 50 personel, with some attendant outside help, to cover 4 (or maybe 6?) reactors, with a shit-load of people safely away on radios and the like pontificating and making decisions based upon sensors that didn't work and damage at which they could only guess, not counting the logistical nightmare of a broken amd chaotic local infrastructure. I'm not making excuses. To my thinking, though, the Russians had the right idea, but were really, really lucky (if one can call it that) in a lot of repects. They never had actual concrete in some slurry form in contact with the material that I know of, and if so, I doubt the slurry would ever reach the hot mass in the reactors as such as the carrier (usually water) would have evaporated (more steam) like it does when they drop water on even forest fires. Here, not enough people, not enough committment, now a damned mess.


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  • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

    Shaker, I am not sure about any lessons learned especially when we humans are dealing with one of the most toxic contaminates ever produced on Planet Earth. Once this Nuclear Genie is out of the bottle there really is no way to put the Genie back in the bottle.

    Common sense says if thousands of miles of land mass are now uninhabitable by using such a failed Nuclear Technology, more of the same will repeat over and over again in the future, until there is no habitable land or life left on Planet Earth.. :(

    I would think Spock and Bones would agree with my glaring logic and since apparently I must be of Vulcan decent too.. :)


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  • Lady M

    Does anyone have firsthand knowledge about what a current visitor to Hawaii would notice (if anything), due to Fukushima radiation and also due to the floating trash pile? For example, are there any warnings about swimming or beachwalking due to the trash, any kinds of food no longer found in the restaurants, any changes in the shore life, any visibility of trash from the beaches, any visible radiation monitoring, any reporting of radiation levels in the local papers, any major reduction in number of tourists, etc?


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    • Gasser Gasser

      Lady M's inquires>, are there any warnings about swimming or beachwalking due to the trash><noticeable trash has not reached here yet><any kinds of food no longer found in the restaurants,><local fish served in top restaurants, from anywhere? fish in Fast Foods>< any changes in the shore life,>< same o'l same o'l>< any visibility of trash from the beaches,><none>< any visible radiation monitoring,><one site on the West Kona side @ mean 31cpm's>< any reporting of radiation levels in the local papers, <>only slightly in March 2011>< any major reduction in number of tourists, etc?<> Resorts are near full..
      ~~~~~~~~
      @ 72, having 100% retired freedom, I'll circumvent the Big Island (250+ mi) a few times a week (weather permitting) Son my 08 Japanese Honda CBR 1000RR Super Bike with licenses plates stopping at my local pitstops along the way where I stop and see slack jaw tourist observe my old 72 yr man's face emerge from a carbon fiber helmet as I step forward zipping open full race leathers, people from all walks of life step up and ask questions and relate their procrastinating sorrow for not riding anymore as their wive stand slightly behind smiling.

      I steer the talk stories to my main topic> Fukushima where very few will offer comment on the potential ELE factors from lack of information.

      [Con’t]


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      • Gasser Gasser

        Many don't even know about Fukushima!
        One in ten are aware of some glossed over facts.

        Some walk away with eye ball's rolled back, when I use simple Nuclear jargon.
        No one has said; because of Fukushima, this vacation is #1 on my bucket list yet.

        None has said; Yeah man I'm pissed!
        Some put finger on the lip and wobble backward slack jawed.

        Mothers walk away waving a wrist, saying; I've got to many kid's to worry about that!
        No one has gone Pro Nuke postal on me yet.

        My Honolulu big wave Pro surfer riding friend said; we don't worry about that shit!
        The only thing that will stop surfers is when their body's melt into the wax.

        Me as an off road rider, I won't stop, I knowingly inhaled volumes of contaminated dust in last weeks gnarly 400 mi off road Dual Sport ride around the Island and been soaked to the bone wet in our Mauna Kea 200 endurance trails, it's kind of late in the game for me to try and avoid something that's colorless, orderless, invisible.

        [Con’t]


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        • Gasser Gasser

          I also ride the gnarly ragged lava rock edge's of Big Island's coastlines where few will hike, I have not seen any unusual amounts of debris other than normal in any of the thousands of coves I ride around and down in.

          As I sip my pit stop coffee at the 9K elev. at Mauna Kea's Observatory tourist stop, I see loads of Japanese tourist shuffle through and often wonder how radionuclide contaminated is the tour bus floor, the parking lot and the gift shop floor matts?

          I've mentioned this to some of the Rangers up there and they just shrug shoulders and smile, saying they don't have Geiger counters.

          I hope this gives you some insight into to the monumental task ahead to inform the World populace @ 11: 59.7 on the Atomic Apocalyptic clock.

          A Hui Ho!


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  • Alpha1

    I can only say we have reached full black out in the US and Fuk U shima is not doing anything to make the processes any better. As for Hawaii they just fished 7 tons of trash of the east facing beaches of two of the Islands and the reports that are coming in to our site is that there are no shell fish no sardines no marine life around for hundreds if not thousands of miles.

    Much like the Alaskan fisheries all gone but the shouting no bait fish no catches in the last several months. All salmon caught is yellow and has tumors on their hearts as well. Melting star fish now down to Mexico and from there nothing. Background radiation is 7529 in Anaheim California and the times are about to get rough for the US and the rest of the world. Time to get out if you can of the western states. If you can not stay in as much as possible get a radiation detector if you can better than Geiger counter…


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  • Shaker1

    Obewan, one really can't tell if the lesson was learned, only that if it was that learning wasn't applied. Am I right? I've worked with physicists pretty intimately, supplying their mechanical dreams, and though they're awfully smart people they can do some things that are damned stupid. Or, for the sake of their living, pour wheelbarrows of money (in particular the government's 'time and material' projects) into things that they know for a fact won't work. Idiots have what appear to them practical ideas, such as a revolving shielded door to take the place of a vestibule with two interlocked door in which only one can be open at a time. It was a beauty of engineering, but because of its nature, scraping metal-to-metal contact that's necessary for the shielding, it was so damned loud the rats abandoned the building in which it was tested. They took delivery and to my knowledge it went right to the junkyard. Probably cost upwards of 1/2 million.

    The thing to admire about Einstein was that he became a philosopher in the modern sense and was willing to open his mouth. Maybe it's because he'd lost some credibility with his opposition to some ideas and he chased a unification theory that was never solved that his philosophic murmurings weren't considered seriously. Maybe it was taken as a challenge to prove him wrong. But I believe it was he who said something like 'Even a genius might only have one or two original ideas in their lives.' That itself, profound and…


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  • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

    There you go as you are now mingling amongst the last of the world's philosophers. WE thinkers do not want anymore manmade toys that break or blow up and cause so much biological damage to our Planet called Earth. This Fukushima will be strike number 4, 5 and 6 concerning major Nuclear melt downs and Nuclear toys makers like these only get three strikes and then they are out…spread the news of what might be the last line of philosophers ever to grace our once upon a time beautiful planet called Earth.


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  • Shaker1

    And Alpha1, that's a great point about background counts. We look at sites such as Radiation Network with background counts of 30, 40, 50, maybe realizing that these have limited resources, while the EPA does publish counts on the order of what you mentioned, I imagine a wider array of isotopes and the outcomes of an array of more sophisticated detection equipment. Not very encouraging, even if you don't believe they publish accurate data. If they're willing to publish 7000 CPM over and over, one has to wonder…

    What amazes me is not the media. They're, at best, mercenaries, with our flagship outlets leading the way. Myself, I'm much more upset with the medical community and others who feel that they're going out on a limb and compromising their professional careers by keeping opinion to themselves. Discuss it, damn-it.


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  • pjrsullivan

    If its too late to pour concrete over the leaking reactor, is that merely a bad accident or possibly something else? Might this vast poisoning, not all be a plan by design?

    If it was understood by 1920 that human Beings cannot coexist with a nuclear field, then why was this menace allowed to be built at all?

    We know of the plan to take us out with nuclear blast. Our elders blocked it. Might there not also be a plan to take us out with nuclear waste? Might this Hitachi-GE sparkler machine not have been designed from the beginning to blow up and poison the atmosphere and surface of our planet?

    Is there some other conclusion we might derive from the presented facts?

    Russians were barred from helping to shut it down at the beginning. Why?

    Why is Judah still holding onto our purse and issuing our money? He used our money to build nuclear blast, and has repeatedly attempted to use it on us. Now waste is threatening to take us out in the hundreds of millions.

    When this sparkler plant blows up, as planned, may billions of us not suffer tremendously?

    STRIKE THEM OUT! Take hold of our purse and get those poly hybrids in a Japanese shell people out of there, and put some real engineers in to shut that dirty bomb down.

    Is it not understood that we are facing the planned poisoning of our fields and our air?

    Must we remain inert in the face of worldwide genocide?

    If we fall down and let them set this dirty bomb off, we'll never draw a clean breath of…


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    • VanneV anne

      The reason Russia was barred from helping with the disaster is because Russia is trying to take over islands owned by Japan because of the rare earth metals there.

      And Russia has claimed that they caused the 9.0 earthquake with their HAARP like technology.

      The reason nuclear technology exists is because some people are making vast amounts of money stealing the money from the taxpayers, and the politicians are uneducated and don't believe or know the long term consequences of their actions. It is the blind leading the blind.

      I heard one nuclear engineering professor saying that if there were no nuclear technology he would have been a farmer. People in the industry love the power that nuclear energy gives them. They are truly demented and believe the propaganda the nuclear industry puts out.

      It is unbelievably sad. Look at all the cell phones. They have been proven to raise the cancer rate by 2 times. People have been inured by the movie and TV industry to love technology and scientific fiction. How many people believe that their cell phone will kill them, or would give them up for a chance to live a longer and more intelligent life? How many people eat a raw, vegan diet? The herd instinct to be sociable is what is killing people, not some diabolical design to destroy the planet.


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  • pjrsullivan

    If we fall down and let them set this dirty bomb off, we'll never draw a clean breath of air again. Must you not act labor and STOP THE WAR of these monstrous people upon us? Is it not fully understood that they're an errant life form?

    Must we not Get them away from their dirty bomb? Must we allow them to be setting it off in front of our eyes?

    http://bitchworld.weebly.com/ufo-prevent-nuclear-shots.html


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  • pjrsullivan, this ain't no orchestrated conspiracy of death but an accident caused by a bunch of short sited sociopathic greedy politicians and business men.

    Conspiricy theories are fine but what I dislike about them is they give these bozos we let run our lives the false aura of intelligence and organization. Fukushima is proof positive that the nuclear industry severely miscalculated the risks. Bluntly put, they are a bunch of fuck ups. We are being lied to because the cost benefit analysis says keeping the present economy intact is more important then protecting people from cancer. O'Bummer and the rest of the idiots are in on the game as their world economy is intrinsically tied to Japan. For Japan to fix this properly would entail the country to be economically ruined. They won't admit that one nuclear accident can bankrupt a country like Japan, third largest economy in the world. The world leaders are seriously inept and in fact most should be tried for treason. The money should flow to the poor not held by these sociopathic bankers and politicians.


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  • Lady M

    Wow, Gasser, great report — Mahalo (thanks)! I rode all around Oahu on (the back of) motorcycles in 2008 and 2009, also did helicopter trips over the big island lava flows, and know the beauty and adventure and joy.


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