Gundersen: Fill Fukushima reactors with cement and come back in 100 years — It’s too radioactive (VIDEO)

Published: October 3rd, 2012 at 6:19 am ET
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Title: Arnie Gundersen on Japan’s post-Fukushima nuclear plans
Source: The BEZ (WBEZ Radio)
Date: Oct. 2, 2012
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Fairewinds’ Arnie Gundersen, Nuclear Engineer: The question is do you spend it [$70-100 billion] now and risk high exposures to people for what gain, or do you entomb these plants with concrete and then come back in a hundred years, that’s a question the Japanese have yet to answer.

Host: What would you do?

Gundersen: I would entomb them and come back later. […] I would do basically what we’ve done at Chernobyl, which is put a sarcophagus around it. Basically fill them with concrete. I would also then bore under the plants and continually withdraw the groundwater, because there’s still going to be seepage of radioactive material into the ocean and into the groundwater and keep that from seeping out into the environment. [...] I just cant justify in my own mind exposing tens of thousands of Japanese workers to high levels of radiation [...]

Published: October 3rd, 2012 at 6:19 am ET
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Related Posts

  1. Gundersen: At this point my mind is changing — Perhaps best to entomb reactors and come back in 300 years (AUDIO) August 15, 2012
  2. Gundersen: “I think people are beginning to think maybe we can never dismantle these plants, maybe we just fill them with concrete and walk away” (VIDEO) June 18, 2012
  3. Gundersen: Fukushima reactors still releasing radioactive gas — Biggest problem is buildings are leaking into groundwater (VIDEO) July 30, 2012
  4. Gundersen: “Liquid releases” of nuclear material into ocean will continue for years and years at Fukushima Daiichi — Already 10 times Chernobyl (VIDEO) March 26, 2013
  5. Fukushima reactors to be entombed like Chernobyl? Officials may say “We’re just going to fill it with concrete and walk away” (VIDEO) May 21, 2012

91 comments to Gundersen: Fill Fukushima reactors with cement and come back in 100 years — It’s too radioactive (VIDEO)

  • Nigwil

    Trouble is that in 100 years we will be in a world with no energy supplies like oil at all. Without oil electricity grids soon fail like they almost did in UK in September 2000 when power station workers could not get to work, and coal transport to power stations (which relies on diesel fuel) was close to stopping.

    So by 2121 AD it will be a very different world and we will definitely not have the capability to fix this mess. If we don't stabilise Fukushima (and every other nuke in the world) in the next decade they will never get stabilised at all. Then the entire planet will be at risk from these invisible plumes of poison. Nice one team!


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  • CBuck CBuck

    Stability and nuke plants just don't seem to fit well together.
    I think it's already too late to fix anything. The fact these plants exist in the first place makes it impossible to ever be rid of them.
    Oh, we'll get a large solar flare and the grid will be down somewhere for months to years, or another big quake, or a flood, or a volcano or human error…then the nuke plants will do what they do best and we won't be able to do anything to stop it.
    Gee, kind of like now…


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  • nyarlathotep nyarlathotep

    Well, I guess they'll need to break down some parts of those ruins anyhow, as you don't want one of those warped concrete pillars to fall on a wrong spot. Chernobyl's sarcophagus is in fact just a crude concrete hut, it's not as though they filled that building to the brim with cement.


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  • many moons

    I thought they had to be constantly cooled so they wouldn't blow up/reactivate…how would covering them in cement keep them from heating up again?


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    • razzz razzz

      He said in the interview that the melted blobs need to be cooled for 4 or 5 years then suggests to entomb them.

      They are like spent fuel rods but all melted down into blobs but treated the same and need to be kept cool (blobs or rods) for about five years. By then, maybe they will have the fuel pools emptied.

      Other than that, Arnie seems a little stumped about what to actually do about the situation 5 years from now.


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  • In this statement we can see that specialist wanted to get away from the problem of hiding behind the good employees. Really by him, so far as they did, it was senseless' Cause speaks of the next work will also be unnecessary .. As a specialist should know that this is a problem that can not be cement on 100 years. Because what happens, for example, the reactor 1 in which the cooling is not sufficient and the temperature increases already about 10 degrees C? for boiling water only 40 degrees …. and then finds the radioactive steam vented into the atmosphere ….
    Then of concrete may be what is left of the concrete reactor 3 .. ie the big bang * (perhaps critical) Even how you bubble away, the ground water flooding dorium will be material to the cooking supply … And then it all and may need to evacuate Japan. I think that such
    Fantasy "charming media professionals" should be rejected and the deal is truly a difficult problem …


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  • WindorSolarPlease

    Is the ground sturdy enough to entomb it, over, under, and around it?
    Once entomb is there a way to keep it cooled?

    I wish someone had a magic wand and make this all ago away.

    We could put a jet booster under it and send it to Never Never Land.

    We could make that area and North America a waste dump site.(we're more than half way there anyway)

    There is not a reasonable reason to build these dangerous things, and there is no reasonable solution to stop this now.


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  • TheBigPicture TheBigPicture

    Gundersen deals with facts, and knows the workers will have to be replaced endlessly, which is murder. His solution to entomb will buy scientists some time, hopefully enough to make some progress, since there's no current antidote or solution to a nuclear disaster such as this one. If they don't do what he suggests, then they are nothing but idiots and murderers. It's that simple.


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    • If employees are changing, it is not murder. And this is a feed rationally manage these employees, ro SEPARATELY thing. However, time can not be bought, because reactors He still heat, It's like money setting them to stop. But this is impossible, and experts should know … because otherwise it could harm a great many people, how you give up to save them from disaster


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    • WindorSolarPlease

      Hi TheBigPicture

      What they are doing now, doesn't seem to be working. I'm not sure they will try entombing?

      I don't even know if that temporary solution would cause an explosion, because of lack of cooling?

      No one, can take these constant levels, so if they can't come up with anything else then try entombing it.

      Maybe they can put something in there to cool it, and watch the heat levels.


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      • Indeed, the action does not look good. It seems that this is the game on time … You can see it after the "rescue" does not work on Saturdays and Sundays … it also shows a lack of ideas … but there may be another earthquake is no hurry to revise …
        Of course, there are many ways to try to control the situation. Till every 4 reactor as cleaned up …


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  • nedlifromvermont

    What does Mother GE have to say about her wayward progeny??

    Still a good thing, Jeffie, your Mama's GE brought to life???

    The silence is deafening! Nothing? Nada? Niente???

    Only Good Ol' Arnie talking technically??

    Where's your backup GE?? How about MIT???

    Is there a new course offering, over at the Stata Center???

    Runaway corium management 101???

    This that was never ever even supposed to even ever happen???

    Unbreachable containment!!! Remember??? Or were you all too busy counting the hush money to pay attention??? What now, MIT???

    Yes, MIT, you're complicit, too, for fudging up Math and Statistics with your 'probabalistic' modeling in the heinous Rasmussen Report … shades of legalistic thinking which ran behind the scenes at the Wahnsee Conference, where it was decided to send six million or so Gypsies, Jews etc. to their deaths at the 'camps', legally.

    Back to 'unbreachable' … oh right, you were warned by your own design/quality control team that these containments were not only 'breachable' but in fact downright FLIMSY!!!

    And we're blaming the Yakuza??

    No, somehow the guilty parties always manage to successfully change the subject.

    We're missing the Voice, Daddy. Are you ready for some football? Mitt Romney said what? Look at all those workers in those fancy white suits? They got a great job, What?

    Keep it coming Enenews and newsers!!

    At least the truth don't stink so bad as the cover…


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  • markww markww

    ONE PROBLEM they are going to have to dig under the RADIOACTIVE BLOBS

    and fill under them concrete with 8 added chemicals to neutralize the decay eating process

    Mark


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  • arclight arclight

    I just cant justify in my own mind exposing tens of thousands of Japanese workers to high levels of radiation

    arnold, you are a man of compassion (ie not fisheded) +1000

    and this point, is the main reason to shut em all down!

    even the wee ones ;)

    peace


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    • arclight arclight

      Buddhist federation speaks out against nuclear power

      21 march 2012

      "The Japan Buddhist Federation has called for a society that does not depend on nuclear power not to repeat the mistake Buddhist organizations made during World War II by silently following government policies, its president said.

      “If we remain quiet, we will follow the same path, and Buddhist organizations will lose their significance of existence in Japanese society,” Taitsu Kono told The Asahi Shimbun in a recent interview…."

      http://ajw.asahi.com/article/views/opinion/AJ201203210053


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  • mungo mungo

    UNIT2…
    20:03 3 October

    Crippled Fukushima Daiichi No. 2 reactor gets new thermometer

    TOKYO, Oct. 3, Kyodo

    The operator of the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant installed a thermometer on Wednesday at the bottom of the No. 2 reactor pressure vessel, succeeding in increasing the number of devices that can properly monitor the temperature of that area to two.

    The thermometers are important for Tokyo Electric Power Co. to check the condition of the reactor, which has suffered a meltdown, as six of the seven thermometers at the bottom of the vessel have gone out of order after the nuclear crisis occurred in March 2011.

    The new thermometer showed that the temperature was 42.6 C as of 11 a.m., not much different from the data taken by the remaining device, which stood at 46.1 C.
    http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2012/10/186031.html


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  • PhilipUpNorth PhilipUpNorth

    "…put a sarcophagus around it". Arnie has really come around on this. Good!

    The problem is that a sarcophagus will cover destroyed buildings where little of the corium remains. The bulk of corium is located in mudrock beneath Buildings1,2,&3. The corium will have to be cooled for hundreds of years. This means that ground water must flow continuously over, under, and around the 3 coriums. This water must be kept separated from the Pacific Ocean, must be cooled, and circulated back underground to keep 3 Rogue Nuclear Reactors cool. (If the water table is lowered, or the flow of water is stopped, the Rogue Nuclear Reactors will heat up, giving off more and more highly radioactive smoke and steam, which will escape any sarcophagus built over the ruins.)

    My suggestion is to build a cofferdam around the Harbor and around Buildings 1,2,3,&4. Use the Harbor as a heat sink. Pump Harbor water into injection wells behind Buildings1,2,&3. This water will cool the 3 Rogue Nuclear Reactors as it flows back into the Harbor. With the corium stabilized, go ahead and build your sarcophagus over the whole mess.


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  • hbjon hbjon

    Lol. Oh man are we fukushima'd. We still get comparisons to Chernobyl which was one core melt. No body knows the next move, because this accident/disaster has no precedence. In dry cast storage, the fuel has a configuration that lets the fuel cool. Alpha radiation is absorbed into the mass and heat is discipated faster than what is produced. Pardon my crude analysis and interpretation, but if f=<1 than heat gradually decreases. In an unknown configuration with possibly no moderation due to gravitational force, heat may increase. The only moderator, afaik, is the borated water flowing over the geometrically unsound masses of fuel. Percentage of moderation will constantly change in an uncontrolled environment. What we hope and meditate on is that a stability is reached like in the tiny little chicken poop accident in Chernobyl.


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    • hbjon hbjon

      Chernobyl was a thousand times less severe as Fukushima Dianni imho.


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    • VanneV anne

      This was posted by Noah on the forum for effects of low dose radiation:
      Noah
      September 25, 2012 at 5:23 pm ·

      The nature of the problem

      I re-posted an post from NoNukes as it reflects an ongoing concern. That the fallout circulating around the globe contains multiple radioisotopes, randomly group together.

      I believe the matrix holding the isotopes together are carbon based. Carbon encased nano particles behaving as gas, are presently traveling the world on air currents. They are randomly grouped together encased in carbon and can travel at high speeds, being extremely small and light and tough. They can float on the very top of the ocean, or go airborne and circulate globally. This enhanced super particle was created by the use of sea water used as a fuel rod cooling agent. Known as the Fukushima Bucky ball, they are still being created, as active molten corium is contacting under ground sea water beneath the Fukushima plants and pluming to the surface as radioactive steam.

      Noah
      September 25, 2012 at 5:29 pm

      Larger particles "fallout" closer to the Fukushima Plants. Lighter and smaller particles travel further. Nano particles circulate globally.

      Noah
      September 25, 2012 at 5:44 pm

      The world has never seen carbon encased radioactive particles.

      The 311 event cannot therefore be likened to the Chernobyl event.

      This disaster is unique, one of a kind.


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      • VanneV anne

        [cont.]
        his disaster is unique, one of a kind.

        We are dealing with A particle form of randomly grouped radioisotopes encased in carbon. Light, fast and tough, capable of traveling extraordinary distances.

        Particle behavior in past text books only cover specific isotopes, no one has studied this new omnibus particle of randomly grouped isotopes encased in a carbon matrix. A new branch of physical chemistry must emerge to determine it's properties and design counter measures.


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  • Urban27

    I dont like that suggestion.
    Concrete maybe is a barrier for some radiation but emissions from the cores can be gases and water vapor with radiactive particles. Or it can leak through the ground into the sea.
    If you make this you have no more control – and no way back.

    The wall to the sea is ok to build and when it is ready there is a possiblity to separate Daichi water from Sea. Even possiblity to pump water up, and separate radioactivity particles.

    The tent is also ok if it is combined with a wentilation through a sand filter. That is to speak – to clean the air from the reactors.

    WARNING! do not fill with cement – It is possible the future offers some better solution – and then it wont be possible to do things if the reator buildings are filled with cement.


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    • Anthony Anthony

      I can really respect how you see and express your different POV. I also think you raise some excellent points, especially about containment and filtration. I bet you and Arnie could have an intelligent conversation about both of your viewpoints.


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  • richard richard

    To leave this toxic mess for a hundred years is declaring war on the future.

    Added to that, it's a sweep under the carpet act. While no dramatic repair is done in this generation, the criminals get away with their crime.

    The whole situation needs to be brought to a head. 10,000 people need to give up their future now, so that there is a future for all. The first in the line should be every single tepco stakeholder. From the design and contruction, shareholders, everyone. And the nuke career junkies, send them in. NOW.

    Not in 100 years, not in 50 years, now. Send them in, the price has be paid. Anything less is a war on all those who follow us. A crime unlike anything seen in history.


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    • PhilipUpNorth PhilipUpNorth

      There is a lot of interesting observations in this thread:
      hbjon said: "What we hope and meditate on is that a stability is reached like in the tiny little chicken poop accident in Chernobyl." You said "chicken poop"! LOL (But no moderation of the coriums is anything but a joke.)
      Urban27 said: "WARNING! do not fill with cement – It is possible the future offers some better solution – and then it wont be possible to do things if the reator buildings are filled with cement." Agreed! Chernobyl was not filled with concrete. Workers can go inside and walk through Chernobyl even now.
      http://m.youtube.com/?reason=8&rdm=4126#/watch?v=jKnFurg5Ag&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DjKnFurg5-Ag. At most, fill the buildings with sand so they can be dug out later to complete the cleanup.
      richard said: "A crime unlike anything seen in history." TEPCO so far tepid effort to deal with Fuku needs to be increased by several orders of magnitude. Think big. Then think even bigger than that! Think quick. Then think about what it would take to do the work faster. As it is, we are all dying out here!


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    • AFTERSHOCK AFTERSHOCK

      again richard…you hit the target!

      I also question the ethics in the suggestion that these renegade cores be entombed. Do we know if anyone will be capable of maintaining those draw-down pumps in the next decade…let alone hundred years?! We have zero right to pass this nightmare on to others!

      Watching this unfold over this last year-and-a-half left me wondering as to when this was going to be presented as the only 'viable' solution. More band-aids over the festering sore.

      Typical Mafia solution: bury the crime and move on to the next scam…


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      • PhilipUpNorth PhilipUpNorth

        Aftershock and richard: Here is the question: What sort of a gift is it to future generations to contaminate the Pacific Ocean, destroy Earth's Biosphere, and mutate the Human Genome? After a year and a half: Essentially no measurable progress by TEP.gov to deal effectively with the situation. Storage tanks aside, most of the water now cooling containments and coriums goes right into the Pacific Ocean. So you don't like entombment as a part of the solution. The alternative is continuing to do "nothing". Let's work together on a solution. Perhaps some of the good ideas originating here on ENEnews will make it into the actual design of the sarcophagus. OK? What ideas for dealing effectively with Fuku do you have? This is a big project. Let's get started on it.


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        • AFTERSHOCK AFTERSHOCK

          your objection is obvious Philip. They have done nothing. But as I've said in past dialogues to you (and others), doing anything is no guarantee of a solution. When there's a raging fire, reaching for any liquid to throw on it can sometimes lead to even greater problems. Which, by the way, is what I think they're up to! They know that as time goes by, people will become evermore despairing and grasp at anything. They'll be only too happy to come up with something that's out-of-sight and cost effective (to them). Just like BP and their use of Corexit, it's all about smoke and mirrors. Putting a cap on top of those monsters is no guarantee that they'll quietly go to sleep. If you doubt this, keep the water table in mind. Go back and think on your point about contamination of the oceans. Of course, we're likely to do what we always do: pass it off to the next generation of defenseless children. Though I'm open to suggestion and solutions, I'm equally open to thinking about them first. And just because Arnie decides to play a different tune today, that doesn't mean I'll be following him to the shores of Fukushima…

          http://enenews.com/nhk-underground-spring-water-a-concern-in-fukushima-fallout-study-drone-helicopter-now-measuring-radiation-around-plant-video


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        • richard richard

          I just wrote my idea. Send in everyone NOW. Get the criminals to clean up the mess now.

          If they die, so what. They started this. Tep.gov should be the first to sacrifice their lives. The rest of us follow.

          Millions of people died in WWII to give you the freedom you have today. Did they all die in vain, because now everyone dies?

          If millions died for survival then, then millions can die for us to survive this time. It simple. It's brutal. But then again, there is no alternative in the face of the disaster called fuku. Leaving for shyte for someone else in the future is gutless.


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          • AFTERSHOCK AFTERSHOCK

            I sympathize with your outrage richard, but I can't join you in the suggestion that we should conscript forced labor to do this. And aside from a few tokens that'll be offered to the Fuku God of Death, I don't think we'll find the real culprits who are responsible for all of this. I think safety and training protocols, coupled with a sound remediation program is in required first. From there, we can offer millions in compensation to anyone who's willing to serve there. These funds can be held in escrow and dispensed to the recipients of their choice. There are more humane and rational approaches to putting people on the frontline…


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            • richard richard

              hi AFTERSHOCK. I can understand the concern of sending in people – and the right ones at that.

              i guess it comes down to how desperate the issue of survival becomes.

              may be things aren't so bad after all. let the coriums cool down for some decades. no one dies from that. just wait it out. i shouldn't give fuku any more thought for the rest of my life .. cause it will still be here after i'm gone and there's nothing to be done about it.

              as for the real culprits .. it's anyone who has supported nukes. it's a simple formula. it's a lot of people. but hey, we are going to need a _lot_ of people.

              think of the bucket scene from fantasia.

              (i'm not mocking your suggestion AS, i wish it was not such a dire situation to contemplate. you could very well be right. But too weak of a response in the face of annillation is destined for failure. We need to be over-achieving at this time, heading toward two lost years already).

              i think of the brave people who gave their life to war – and watch fuku and despair as it'll all be a sacrifice for nothing. Their bravery led to a world of chickens.


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  • Sounds like Mr. Gundersen is 'throwing in the towel'.

    ONE HUNDRED YEARS…!!!

    I think Japan needs to mobilize every single person in their country if they have to in order to stop this historic catastrophe from destroying the rest of the planet.


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  • markww markww

    You do not have to cool the radioactive materials its self cooling with 8 elements and concrete materials that I already sent to Arnie its self cooling, once t is mixed and injected around the mass


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  • Maggie123

    I've been holding environmental issues of cement in mind for several years and envisioning the world's nuclear plants, each requiring a mountain of the stuff for entombment.

    General browser searches aren't giving me much info. Lots of industry 'hits' and some hits that reference 'green cement' and/or cement that "absorbs" CO2. I've not got time to dig into this, someone here may be up to speed on cement as an environmental concern. Maybe it's no longer an issue, I may lack current information.

    (A 2nd question: How much of earth as a resource must we use simply to create power plant tombs?)

    Wonder if Arnie firmly believes this – has he spoken before against entombing the plants? I also thought containment by drilling under bldgs was earlier thought complexity with low-certainty of containment success. (??)

    Thanks to all ENEers 'chewing' on the entombment idea – helps me learn!


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  • papacares papacares

    friends
    zero progress at fukushima now, zero progress at fukushima
    today, zero progress at fukushima tomorrow – one of those
    in on the start of creating this nuclear mess once wrote, "the
    definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result" and another great mind once wrote
    "beware the complacency of convienence lest you be destroyed by
    the false sense of comfort you believe it provides" thanks to enenews and everyone's comments for keeping us informed – however we enewsers desperately yearn to know how this event is actually being staffed and remedied. it has now been more than 19 months since these events occurred with current results worsening as the world for the most part perceives this event resolved


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    • richard richard

      papacares, i've done some rough sums before on these blogs if you care to find them.

      but basically it added up to expecting busloads of people arriving _every_ day at fuku to decommission the site.

      and each busload will be new people, because the previous people will already have had a lifelong dose equivalent.. they can never return to help again.

      but no buases are arriving. no hive of activity nor a sense of urgency. Just the silence of desertion.


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  • The Blue Light.

    Once we have cooled the coriums for a further 5 years then the most important thing is to dry out the reactors and make them gas tight, with filtered pressure relief of course. Water ingress at Chernobyl has been a source of many problems.
    No one as talked about a system a saw some years ago where plastisized epoxy is pumped through bore holes, at high pressure, to form a matrix of fractured rock and epoxy. You can make this as thick as you like, just make more bore holes. Bore holes can be vertical or horizontal, plus this stuff isn't just water tight its also gas tight.
    If a vertical wall of epoxy could be put in place around each reactor and mate this to a horizontal barrier underneath then we would have built a tank for each reactor. then just build a gas tight building over the top and we can leave them to cool down, radioactively. Urban27's idea of adding sand to the rooms around the containment is inspired, this would work perfectly.
    I think this would work, this thing has killed enough people. If we can SAFELY leave it to cool down then we should.


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    • The Blue Light.

      Sorry Urban27, It was not your idea, it was Philipupnorth's idea. Go to the bottom of the class. Only joking.


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    • PhilipUpNorth PhilipUpNorth

      The epoxy idea is a very good one, The Blue Light. If this stops outgasing, so much the better. May still have to build a heat sink, IMO. The melted fuel may be cooling down from over 2,500 degrees F. Much higher temperature then if intact fuel assemblies were in a SFP. It will take years to cool.


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    • VanneV anne

      How do you create a horizontal barrier underneath, especially 1 yr and 7 months after the meltdown and meltthrough? How even to determine where the corium is by now? And how much has already leaked or been dumped into the ocean along the whole coast of Japan including Tokyo Bay?


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      • moonshellblue moonshellblue

        I would think this would be extremely difficult due to the location not to mention the radioactive working conditions but using robotic machinery I can also see how it is possible but should have been started as we type. So TEPCO get busy and save our bread basket, the pacific ocean. Okay?


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      • The Blue Light.

        Hi Anne, hope you are well.
        I didn't explain it too well. We can steer the cutting head on a drilling rig to drill in the horizontal. As for the epoxy barrier when the oil companies do frakking they pump in fluid, at pressure, to fracture the rock. In this case the fluid is epoxy, we pump it in and then leave it to set, job done. you then move forward ten feet or so and do it again until you have gone 'all around the houses' so to speak. If you want a thicker barrier then you just drill ten feet further down. Think concrete but held together with epoxy instead of cement.
        As for finding the cores, seismic mapping has been used for finding ancient ruins, water, oil, gas, ore bodies etc. for decades, you could also use thermal terrain mapping. Its not down some mile deep hole there is nowhere near enough energy in the, once melted now solid, coriums to do that. If they did, the whole building would have fallen in after it by now. Speaking as a physicist who's specialism was criticality my bet would be that the coriums are 15 feet under the containment, +/- 5 feet and +/- 10 feet north, east, south or west. Sadly we wont find out for some time. Perhaps we could start a pool on its where abouts.
        Good night all.


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      • VanneV anne

        Why Underground Entombment At
        Fukushima Daiichi Won’t Succeed
        By Yoichi Shimatsu, 7-28-11
        “Fukushima No.1 rests on landfill comprising loose rock and sand over the natural seabed and is positioned only a couple of meters above the high tide mark. Water seepage and earthquake-caused liquefaction have seriously disturbed this rather weak soil structure….
        “Much of the danger comes from simpler processes. Extremely hot magma, consisting of nuclear residues mixed with soil minerals, will boil any sea water seeping underground, creating pressurized steam.Think of oatmeal cooking in a pot and how bubbles create blow holes. The same is happening inside the landfill.
        “The steam-created tubes harden when they cool, leaving lines of structural weakness. Eventually, these air pockets will collapse, and the massive weight of the water-filled reactors, piles of spent rods and their supporting structures will drop into deep sinkholes.
        “If the magma tubes become filled with sea water, the landfill will resemble a gigantic sponge, prone to liquefaction and collapse under earthquake motion. Even the resonance vibrations from large machines could trigger the sudden opening of new sinkholes.


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        • VanneV anne

          [cont.]
          “Water holds other dangers as well, since it is a better medium for nuclear fission than the mix of stones, dirt and concrete now under the reactors. Once sea water seeps into the newly opened underground channels, the fissile particles will become free-floating and fire neutrons into bits of uranium, plutonium and other isotopes, triggering cascades of fission. The resulting steam pressure is volcanic, bursting out of the ground and spewing vast amounts of radioactive material into the atmosphere. The oatmeal spatters across the stove top. …”
          http://www.rense.com/general94/whyf.htm


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        • SnorkY2K

          The steaming and water interactions are why I am strongly against any coating not good for removing heat and am strongly against dumping the whole thing into the sea. I see the only alternative that could save any part of Japan/Korea… is to cover the corium in bismuth. Using bismuth would be massively expensive and would horrify Tepco's stockholders. Bizmuth has a higher melting point than water's boiling point but is still very low. When bismuth contacts molten or soft corium it will slowly combine and dis-enrich the reaction fuel while forming a radiation barrier. Bismuth is heavy enough to fill voids created by steaming explosions to reduce the water-steam-sand abrading the corium and carrying off hot particles. Pipes placed into bizmuth can form cooling manifolds and the bismuth will form a shield to reduce skyshine to the point where machines can get in to start clean-up to the point where the area can be isolated for 10,000 years. The bismuth will be heavy but will also protect against earthquakes as it will stop at the harder layers underground without steam interaction. And if there is a tremor causing cracks in the bismuth, it will heat to a level where the corium will further diffuse and reduce the risk of future criticalities. areas of bismuth could also be placed under spent fuel pools. Should the spent fuel pools fail, the fuel would fall into the bismuth and be sealed far more effectively than concrete or water.


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  • NeverAnyDanger

    I'm afraid that once they decide to fill the reactors with concrete they'll say the problem is solved. Once people see the concrete they'll also believe the problem is taken care of. So many people are asleep anyway. Out of sight, out of mind.


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  • ITSNOTABANANA

    I know what we has to happen to get these Japanese creeps to do ANYTHING about fukushima… Get their Mothers involved.. and grandmas (no disrespect)… getting threaten with high heel shoes and kitchen utensils will straighten them up


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    • ITSNOTABANANA

      The problem with any approach here is… WHERE ARE THE CORES??

      You can't set an appropriate plan without location location location… wait one more, location. Can we even locate any spent fuel rods on the complex?


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  • omniversling

    INAB…am 110% positive TPTB know where the cores are. Think: hot blobs in the foundations of WTC after the pulverisation of the towers. See:

    World Trade Center Thermal Hot Spots
    gallery.usgs.gov/photos/09_12_2011_xcs1VJi77P_09_12_2011_2#.UGy5Cxhbq9U

    "produced by the USGS from data gathered during flyovers of the site using an Airborne Visible and Infra-Red Imaging Spectrometer (AVIRIS)."

    Not super hi-res, but come on USgov and JapGov..surely between you quasicrystal super geeks there must be SOME kind of imaging equipment…what about the freaky thing that found all those 'alQueda' secret tunnels and deadly weapons and control centers in Tora Bora caves? You remember, the ones that the 'box-cutter banshees' flew out of to terrorise the planet for ever. Not unlike TEPKILL…Ahh, I remember now, that was bogus…

    See: The Power of Nightmares, subtitled The Rise of the Politics of Fear
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGo1DqmfHjY
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares

    Unfortunately this 'manufactured fear' that most EVERYBODY knows about, has been replaced by a real fear, that most NOBODY knows about. Common ground? EVERYBODY is affected by it eventually.

    The reason that we're not being told, is too hard-core to comprehend. It's something to do with 'can't fix it, can't contain it, can't stop it'.

    Get your affairs in order, and have a great life. Love and help those around you…


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    • moonshellblue moonshellblue

      I also think they know exactly where the corium is spewing. We have infrared cameras and drones and technological advances few of us are privy to. They know. IMHO


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    • ITSNOTABANANA

      Anyone have a link to current(ish) sat. imagery of the complex? Everything I've seen is pre-enclosure at unit 1.

      It's amazing how most people only think about what they're spoon fed by tv. I'm one of those people that gave their tv sets away about mid April, 2011…

      I am sure anyone willing to look will find them… Willing to report is another matter.

      If the nuclear industry miraculously finds a solution to nuclear waste… we know where to look; the few china syndrome holes scattered around the globe now… perfect opportunity. Who in their right mind would ever look at a hole that doesn't exist.
      Salt with your Dome anyone?


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  • omniversling

    Just coincidentally, what are the chances of this plane just about to fly over Japan? Seems to only measure surface deformations…or at least that's what we're being led to believe…:

    https://theextinctionprotocol.wordpress.com/2012/10/03/nasa-radar-to-study-volcanoes-in-alaska-and-japan/

    "A NASA aircraft carrying a unique 3-D aerial radar developed by NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif., has left California for a 10-day campaign to study active volcanoes in Alaska and Japan."


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  • sunpower

    This is a really long thread with many differing opinions, but I value all of you coming together with the same intention to stop the release of atomic radiation. With the DU and six sigma industry we have our work cut out for us.
    I agree with Arnie on grouting the reactors. From what I saw in the Russians' video, they got pretty close to the coriums and did not wait five years. There was no water cooling at all there with the coriums slumped onto a concrete floor slab like pahoehoe lava. I believe corium vitrification is the natural steady state people are seeking and will not be a problem in one hundred years as long as it is kept buried and people are kept away from Daiichi. I believe the entire site should be buried.
    I was amazed that people believe pyramids are three sided, especially the Egyptian ones. I have been studying the one on my dollar bill for a long time but that thing looks like unit three blowing its top. My idea for Daiichi is more like Daiichiyama, a big fuji of volcanic sand and maybe a concrete cap like in Micronesia on that poor island wasteland the US wrecked permanently. I believe there is no solution to spent fuel now except what they are trying, to get more of it in dry cask and out of water. The reactors globally need to be shut down immediately to start the cooling process.
    Good work Arnie, you seem to be a person of very good heart.


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    • Yes Arnie looks even person with a very good heart. He should join the Salvation Army now, because I will not have work for the next 100 years … But for some others worse heart, but be responsible and try to understand it clearer to all that we do not endanger more … Because for 100 years it will be 10 large earthquakes in Japan … because it happens … what is different from Chernobyl, where they practically no …. But a person with a good heart in mind, however, that they will not be … And what will happen, as after some earthquake of pool with 3 water reactor escape, because he is the most strained of all four for sure,,,,?


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  • VanneV anne

    I don't believe there was ever any chance that they could remove fuel rods from the SFPs. When they used salt water, it was an admission that they was never going to be any way to remediate the mess. Of course, the first use of the salt water was the tsunami. All nuclear reactors should be immediately decommissioned and the fuel spent or live moved. With the oceans rising from the climate change alone caused by nuclear power plants it is only a matter of time before another disaster. Also with the depletion of the ozone layer caused by nuclear power plants, and weakening of the electromagnetic shield around the earth, also caused by nuclear power plants, solar activity will take down the grid. Man made technology and greed is ensuring the end of habitation on this planet.


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  • VanneV anne

    What’s causing these monster hurricanes and tornadoes?
    “Recently there have been some suggestions that charged ions can, even at small concentrations, can have a (substantial?) effect on the formation of certain type’s of clouds (Marsh and Svensmark; 2000, Harrison, 2000; Carslaw et al., 2002)…
    If confirmed this would imply that a changing concentration of krypton-85 could affect to some extent the earth’s climate.”
    Source: MNP Report 500116003/2007
    The effect of a nuclear energy expansion strategy in Europe on health damages from air pollution
    Netherlands Environmental Assessment Agency
    http://thedailybite.wordpress.com/2011/05/25/whats-causing-these-monster-tornadoes/


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  • VanneV anne

    Nuclear plant emissions may be affecting climate
    http://www.rivm.nl/bibliotheek/rapporten/500116003.pdf
    Netherlands Environmental Assessment Agency
    MNP Report 500116003/2007
    The effect of a nuclear energy expansion strategy in Europe on
    health damages from air pollution
    J.C. Bollen and H.C. Eerens
    Quote:
    Textbox 1: Krypton-85 accumulation in the atmosphere
    Krypton-85 is a long-lived radioactive isotope which is naturally released into the atmosphere in small quantities (Harrison and Apsimon, 1994), approximately 5.2 1013 Bq/yr and, in larger quantities artificially (1017-1018 Bq/yr). It has steadily accumulated in the atmosphere since 1945 (from <0.2 Bg/m3), when anthropogenic nuclear activities started, and reaches 1.3 Bq/m3 nowadays.
    Ion production
    The principal concern with krypton-85 release is not a radiological/medical one, as population doses are small (Boeck, 1976), but the possible disturbance of the global electrical system (Legasov et al, 1984, Tertyshnik et al., 1977). It is known from nuclear weapon testing (Huzita, 1966) that atmospheric radioactivity increases air’s natural conductivity.
    The conductivity of air is proportional to the (small) ion concentration. These ions are formed naturally in atmospheric air at a rate (near the surface) of about 10 ion-pairs cm-3 s-1 (Chalmers, 1967). There are three major sources of these ions: airborne alpha radiation, cosmic rays and terrestrial gamma radiation. Near the Earth’s surface, gamma radiation from…


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    • VanneV anne

      There are three major sources of these ions: airborne alpha radiation, cosmic rays and terrestrial gamma radiation. Near the Earth’s surface, gamma radiation from the soil is the chief source of ionization, due to the nuclear decay in the Earth’s crust. This accounts for about 80% of the ionization near the surface. The remaining ionization is caused by cosmic rays, whose intensity increases greatly with height. Ionization over the oceans is considerably lower, since there is no gamma contribution and a greatly reduced amount of airborne alpha radiation.
      Removal
      The removal of ions can take place through two mechanisms: ion-ion recombination and ion-aerosol attachment. In the last case the particles become electrically charged (Fuchs, 1963). In the steady state, the bipolar ion production rate q per unit volume and the ion loss rates are balanced, given by (Harrison and Apsimon, 1994): q-αn2-βnZ=0
      (1) Where α is defined as the ion-ion recombination coefficient (1.6,10-6 cm3.s-1, e.g. Gringel et al, 1978) and β is the
      attachment coefficient between an ion and aerosol particle. β depends on the aerosol particle radius and charge (Gunn, 1954). Z is aerosol particle number concentration per unit volume, and n is the average ion number concentration. At higher aerosol concentration (i.e. 10 μg/m3 with 0.2 μm radius particles) n is dominated by aerosol-ion attachments. From the formula it becomes clear that a change in conductivity can occur due to an increase in the…


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    • VanneV anne

      From the formula it becomes clear that a change in conductivity can occur due to an increase in the production rate q (by, for
      example the additional ionization caused by krypton-85) or a change in aerosol concentration (increase will decrease conductivity).
      Change in conductivity by krypton-85
      The amount of extra ionization caused by the beta radiation can be found by using the average beta energy (0.249 MeV) for krypton-85. For a krypton-85 concentration of Ckr Bq/m3 the ionization rate is:
      qkr=(2.49.105/35).Ckr.
      (2) Assuming a surface ionization rate qo of 10 ion-pairs cm-3.s-1 the change in ion production is:
      dq/q0 = 7.11.10-4 Ckr.
      (3) Over the oceans, where q0 is about one-fifth of its continental value, the fractional change will be corresponding larger. The concentration of krypton falls with density (height) of air:
      Ckr(z)= c(0)e-z/8561, where c(0) is the surface concentration.
      (4) Combining ion production from the crust and cosmic ray, a maximum share of krypton-85 ion production can be expected at a height of 500-1500m, about twice the value at the surface and at a surface concentration of 1.3 Bq/m3 , a change of 2‰ in ion concentration at 1000 m can be expected . Locally, near a nuclear waste processing plant, the share can increase to approximately 20% (Clarke, 1979). Note that the conductivity above mountainous (remote) areas (Antarctic, Himalaya, determines the Earths resistance and interaction with the ionsphere.
      Consequence for the atmospheric…


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    • VanneV anne

      Consequence for the atmospheric system
      • It is generally assumed, although surrounded with some uncertainty and controversial (Illingworth and Latham, 1975), that thunderstorms provide the earth with a small negative charge. The slight conductivity of the atmosphere (see above) creates a small, opposite “fair weather current” (E= + 100 V.m-1, J ~2 pA.m-2 at the surface). Considering the earth as a spherical capacitor (with Ct ~2.8 Farads) it would lose it’s charge (τ ~667 s) in about an hour. The earth needs therefore continuously be charged by approximately 2000 thunderstorms
      (Schonland, 1953). A change of 0.1% could therefore be compared with the equivalent of two continually active thunderstorms. The interaction between an increasing conductivity and thunderstorms remains unclear although there are suggestions (Spangler and Rosenkilde, 1979) that it would weaken thunderstorm lighting.
      • Recently there have been some suggestions that charged ions can, even at small concentrations, can have a (substantial?) effect on the formation of certain type’s of clouds (Marsh and Svensmark; 2000, Harrison, 2000; Carslaw et al., 2002) . If confirmed this would imply that a changing concentration of krypton-85 could affect to some extent the earth’s climate.
      http://www.rivm.nl/bibliotheek/rapporten/500116003.pdf


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  • VanneV anne

    Krypton review of literature
    http://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyNET.exe/9100FW8L.PDF?ZyActionP=PDF&Client=EPA&Index=Prior%20to%201976&File=D%3A\ZYFILES\INDEX%20DATA\70THRU75\TXT\00000011\9100FW8L.txt&Query=&SearchMethod=1&FuzzyDegree=0&User=ANONYMOUS&Password=anonymous&QField=&UseQField=&IntQFieldOp=0&ExtQFieldOp=0&Docs=


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  • VanneV anne

    Krypton-85 could be responsible for creating mid-ocean perturbations, triggering much bigger storms and hurricanes such as Katrina that devastated the coastline of America's Gulf shore, New Orleans included, in August 2005
    Dr David Lowry wrote:
    Last weekend I attended an international conference in Stockholm, Sweden, where arguments for and against the Swedish nuclear strategy were presented by radiation protection and nuclear waste managment officials, and countered by various environmental and technical groups such as FMKK and MKG.

    One of the surprising points raised came in a presentation by Gunnar Lindgren of Milkas (Milj?r?relsens k?rnavfallssekretariat)- the Swedish environment movement's nuclear waste secretariat – when he argued that the emission of one radioactive gas from nuclear operations, is a possible contributor to acceleration of climate change.

    The gas in question is Krypton-85, the release of which has risen some 200,000 times since 1945, whilst carbon dioxide releases over the same time period has increased a substantial, but much smaller, 30 times globally.

    He asserted that Krypton-85 could be responsible for creating mid-ocean perturbations, triggering much bigger storms and hurricanes such as Katrina that devastated the coastline of America's Gulf shore, New Orleans included, in August 2005.


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    • VanneV anne

      [cont.]
      "I am no atmospheric scientist, but have heard this argument over the impact of increasing krypton-85 releases, put forward by Dr Peter Taylor at a Conference on the Thermal Oxide Reprocessing Plant (Thorp) at Sellafield, held at Liverpool University in 1988.

      "Thorp's operators, BNFL ( now managing the reprocessing plant under contract for the atomic quango, the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority) were told to build into Thorp during construction in the 1980s a krypton-85 filtration plant, but they declined to do so due to excessive costs. Could that decision be proved very short sighted?
      It may be counter-intuitive, but just maybe going nuclear might exascerbate climate change, not mitigate it, as the IPPC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change)scientific panel has argued today (4 May) in Bangkok in Thailand.

      "I suggest that anyone wanting to follow-up this issue further contact MILKAS directly – they have several very good English speakers – at informilkas@gmail.com, or telephone : +46 31 42 46 64, or visit their web site at http://www.milkas.se

      "Dr David Lowry
      environmental policy and research consultant
      Stoneleigh
      Surrey
      http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4169&sid=1e0e3e86d87ed468a6de232716b9a79b


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  • VanneV anne

    Enthalpy [comment to Krypton-85 in our atmosphere]

    “Krypton-85 85Kr is a beta emitter with 687keV maximum energy and 10.7 year half-life. It's produced by uranium fission with 0.27% yield (137Cs and 90Sr: 6%). Here is a report, a bit old and in French, but figures read the same in English anyway:
    http://www.irsn.fr/EN/Research/publi…ts/Kr85SAN.pdf

    “When reprocessing used nuclear fuel rods at La Hague, solid fission products like 137Cs and 90Sr are separated for storage, but 85Kr is just diluted and emitted in the atmosphere. For instance in 1999, La Hague emitted 2.9*1017 Bq of 85Kr, more than the radioactivity of 137Cs and 90Sr released by the Chernobyl disaster.

    “Iodine, caesium, strontium radioisotopes fall on the soil more quickly and locally if emitted, and accumulate in the food chain. Krypton, as a noble gas, dilutes in the whole northern hemisphere's atmosphere, where in 2001 it added 1.2 Bq/m3, with 3/4 of it coming from La Hague – it must be worse by now.

    “How bad is such an added radioactivity, much smaller than natural sources anyway? It irradiates a human body by 4nSv/yr, or 500nSv/yr at the skin as beta rays don't go deep. No experimental data tells the effect of such a low dose; scientific near-consensus is to extrapolate proportionally from higher doses, taking 1% more risk of a fatal cancer per 0.2Sv exposure.


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  • VanneV anne

    [cont.]
    "Over 30 years, this adds only 6*10-9 risks of casualty – but for each of the 6 billion people in the hemisphere, meaning an estimated 36 casualties.

    “Note the 1% per 0.2 Sv is a whole-body average, but external beta rays damage essentially the skin. It seems that 500 nSv/yr at the skin is a bit worse than the deep 4 nSv/yr taken here.

    “Some people challenge that the risk is proportional to the dose; they want to see some dose threshold below which the risk vanishes. Among them is Areva, the operator of La Hague.

    “I consider that since 85Kr arrives from the power plants confined in fuel rods, keeping all 85Kr confined in some storage can't be that difficult. And to avoid three dozens possible deaths, it should be done, without arguing about risk models.”
    http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=554562


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  • VanneV anne

    O course, CO2 is also causing climate change. HAARP is also causing climate change. The dramatic increase in the ozone hole that occurred after Mar.11, 2011 caused by the meltdowns also contributes to climate change. The heat from nuclear power plants also increases heat in the water used for cooling and in the air around a plant.

    Nuclear power plants can't be used with climate change. As the earth heats up you can't use nuclear power plants.


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  • VanneV anne

    There is also a relationship between methane and nuclear power plants:

    Fukushima Explained – by Finnish Nuclear ex-Employee Arto Lauri (HAARP & more)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V71EclYZm2c


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  • VanneV anne

    There has to also between nuclear waste and climate change. The corium at Fukushima reaches 3000 degrees Celsius.


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  • VanneV anne

    All the radiation in the ocean from Japan and France is killing off all the organisms in the ocean on which we depend for oxygen production. As we have huge amounts of less oxygen, this is also going to affect the climate.


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