Gundersen: Health effects from Fukushima are being hidden — Japan not publishing data on stillbirths, spontaneous abortions, cancers, and more since 3/11 — Indicates they’re afraid to release it (VIDEO)

Published: November 15th, 2013 at 5:56 pm ET
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Fairewinds Podcast, Nov. 14, 2013 (at 15:45 in): If we leave it to the nuclear priesthood, they’ll circle the wagons and not tell us everything that’s going on there. I’m particularly concerned about he dose people in Fukushima prefecture are receiving and the health effects that are being presently hidden. [...] Citizen oversight is the key [...] The nuclear priesthood does not want information released. And I know that you appreciate this because you’re watching these videos. You can help us to continue to be that beacon in the fog in 2014. A donor stepped forward and has offered us $2 for every $1 that other people give us. That means that you’re $1 donation makes $3 when it’s matched by this donor. It’s an incredible opportunity.

Watch the Fairewinds video here

Fairewinds Chief Engineer Arnie Gundersen, Coast to Coast AM with John B. Wells, Nov. 9, 2013 (at 37:15 in): Before the accident, they had excellent statistics, prefecture by prefecture, about cancers and stillbirths and spontaneous abortions, and all that kind of stuff. They haven’t published anything in 2011 and 2012. So that’s an indication that the information’s out there, and they’re just afraid to release it.

Full broadcast for subscribers here – Now available on YouTube here

Published: November 15th, 2013 at 5:56 pm ET
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193 comments

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193 comments to Gundersen: Health effects from Fukushima are being hidden — Japan not publishing data on stillbirths, spontaneous abortions, cancers, and more since 3/11 — Indicates they’re afraid to release it (VIDEO)

  • Grampybone Grampybone

    The Japanese medical community seems to be in a state of internal chaos. The government suppression of information efforts are exactly the opposite of their international pleas for help. IAEA Statements arrive on the heels of 3 containment breach reports and staged fuel rod removal simulations are fed to the public. Boron is at 1% of the water that is keeping the fuel from critical levels. Steam is being released from concentrated areas of the SFP4 and free flowing out of 1 confirmed core breach in reactor 1. Hiding medical data is going to be key to keeping the people of Japan under control when they see that Tokyo and a 500km radius is not suitable for human habitation.


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    • invisible ELEphant in the room

      Quoting people from around the net:

      [...]The day WILL come when the amount of radiation reaches the point where both Humans and Robots can no longer work at the power plant. When that occurs, there will be no one and/or robots to control the increasing levels of radiation and essentially, the radiation will exponentiate over time.

      There is ANOTHER nuclear power plant (Fukushima Daiini) 10 miles north of Daiichi. It has several reactors too. When DAIICHI goes viral, the other one will, too. There are a total of 53 nuclear power plants in Japan. When the above two go out of control, they ALL will become too radioactive to control.

      [...]There are a lot of people who believe that Edgar Cayce's prediction "…And the greater part of Japan must go into the sea" will come to pass. If that's true than we're talking around 30+ Fukushimas being dumped into the ocean all at once. That will essentially kill all of the plankton in the ocean imho and then most will die from lack of oxygen.

      [...]with 437 (roughly) "Poison Pills" in the form of nuclear power plants scattered around the world.[...] Any significant interruption to society (IE grid power goes down) for even a few days will result in each of those reactors blowing up, or blowing down in a meltdown.[...] As more and more plants progressively fail, the cumulative radiation from so many plants will destroy all life on Earth, down to microbes and bacteria.

      You're saying "a 500km radius", how many NPP…


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    • invisible ELEphant in the room

      Sorry, my first post was abruptly cut off…

      You're saying "when they see that Tokyo and a 500km radius is not suitable for human habitation", how many nuclear power plants are in that area? To be honest, I'm too afraid to look.

      The fact is, this could all happen next week or next month, nobody knows. What's your time frame for the above quote?


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      • Grampybone Grampybone

        "What's your time frame for the above quote?" The time frame I was using was one from Chernobyl and a single reactor core melt with 30% containment breach. The calculation for Fukushima is estimated at 60% or greater for each core meltdown. That would mean that if an exclusion zone for 1 reactor at 30% meltdown is 75km than you would add a delta calculation for Fukushima. 75 x 3 = 225 + 60 delta = 180 additional km bringing the contamination zone to 405km. Given the fact that it is over 60% core melt for each reactor adding 95km would demarcate the radiological exclusion zone. Thyroid cancer data would be the only way to calculate how long it will take for the area to be inhabitable. Japan.gov is 2 years behind on releasing data. With thyroid cysts showing in 2.8 years when the projected time frame was admitted to be 4 years mean's that toxicity becomes critical in children 1.2 years faster than expected.


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        • invisible ELEphant in the room

          If your scenario is even close to correct (and I believe that something like it is a certainty), then all the talk about Fukushima Daiichi is moot, isn't it?

          After all, if the exclusion zone for Fukushima Daiichi includes Fukushima Daiini (and how is it possible that it won't?), then we'll be dealing with Fukushima Daiichi multiplied by 2 approximately sometime fairly soon. I would say in the next few years. How about you?

          Then, the exclusion zone will have to take into account the radiation coming from two nuclear power plants, then three, then four, etc. Again, this is the basic logic:

          <b> There is ANOTHER nuclear power plant (Fukushima Daiini) 10 miles north of Daiichi. It has several reactors too. When DAIICHI goes viral, the other one will, too. There are a total of 53 nuclear power plants in Japan. When the above two go out of control, they ALL will become too radioactive to control.</b>

          Do you agree with that?


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          • VanneV anne

            Fukushima Daini is 10 km south of Fukushima Daiichi.

            Fukushima #1 37.422972N 141.032917E
            Fukushima #2 37.316389N 141.025556E


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          • Grampybone Grampybone

            No nuclear power station can be abandoned entirely without serious consequences and the accumulation model best used is Chernobyl. 30% core melt is not as severe as 60%or more x3 reactor breaches. That being said, it's difficult to project how long it will take to see a true representation of the exclusion zone without proper plume analysis. When a 10 mile zone reflects 1MsV it means work at any nuclear power station is going to be hampered because exposure for humans can only last close to 60 minutes without serious tissue damage. Helen Caldicott's models arranged for Fukushima are the best representation of the future of a contaminated area that I can think of. Radcast.org is also useful in constructing longer term models.


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      • Hippo

        It seems all the things the major risk factors: A weak (turns out to be clay) layer​ above the roof. Surprisingly, the ceiling problem was so bad they have added ceiling bolts to hold the roof up since an early TV documentary. This due to moisture movement due to the heat & dryer air near the warm waste material? Surely they would not be stupid enough to have loose ceiling bolts-this means they were installed wrong or engineered wrong but installed right-either way, they fell and were noticed, even photographed!! But not fixed! Maybe thus"Let me get this right, you thought there might be a problem with the ceiling because of the layer of (probably moist) clay over the ceiling, so you installed ceiling bolts which fell out because they were to short or because drilling a hole through the salt allowed the moisture in the slat/clay And how many ceiling bolts were installed? Where is the research and experts review for putting bolts in a salt mine ceiling? And is it true this salt mine has existed for decades with no problems with falling ceiling and within a short time of bringing in the nuclear waste which changed the mine environment in unexpected ways, but you kept on bringing waste in without reconvening a major review of the stability of the whole thing?"


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  • pattersonp

    Arnie is right, no Data for 2011/2012 and definitely not 2013.

    Across the board. Even third party statistics sites do not have ANY data, and they usually just report govt. or second hand statistics. > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23493744 (1958 – 2011)

    Here is a site that is a cancer center, and they have their treatment stats broken down by specific departments: http://www.ncc.go.jp/en/publication/2012/ncc/index.html

    Official cancer data stops in 2011: http://ganjoho.jp/pro/statistics/en/table_download.html

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3623661 "In Japan, cancer has become the leading cause of deaths since 1981." … This is 30 years in the making atleast.


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    • Socrates

      Arnie is conservative in his opinions. On 3-11, I predicted a loss of cooling event that would result in the biggest industrial accident of all time. The extent of the morbidity and mortality which I predicted by 3-15-11 is coming true.

      I could see triple core melts and damage to.spent fuel pools.

      Arnie has been slow to admit that nuclear energy cannot be both cheap and safe. Maggie is against nuclear energy.

      Why risk a potential ELE? Einstein predicted that people would get greedy for profits and take chances. He was a good judge of human character. As an anthropologist, I agree that technology is not the problem, lack of wisdom is.

      I was exposed to this debate in 1954. Arnie does a pretty good job, in my opinion. He is on the conservative side. Things are much worse than you realize, Pattersonp.

      I wish the Japanese and the rest of us good luck, but luck has run out.


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      • mairs mairs

        "Arnie has been slow to admit that nuclear energy cannot be both cheap and safe. Maggie is against nuclear energy."

        Are you kidding me? He said early on in 2011 that Fukushima would be the bookend for the end of nuclear power. I've never forgotten that.


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        • Socrates

          2011 is late in the game, Darling. Maggie gets it. Arnie was idealistic about the possibility of safe nuclear energy until Fukushima.

          I was raised in Nevada during nuclear testing. My father worked for uranium mines as a physician. He was also a government consultant as an expert in reproductive medicine. He quit.

          I have been active in these issues and others for fifty years. I litigate environmental and consumer cases.

          I know Arnie and Maggie through the SONGS effort. I have always known that nuclear energy and weapons testing cause cancer and mutations – since 1954 at least. That is while Arnie was in kindergarten.


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      • nedlifromvermont

        @socrates: Thank you for laying it out straight. I don't remember you from earlier in these threads … but you seem to offer a voice of reason and experience: keep sharing!

        @mairs: Okay okay. I also know Arnie personally, and I like him. I'm glad he's come over to our side. But I understand Socrates and have shared personal qualms about Arnie's story … he really has not come out and said civilian nuclear power plants were a stupid (and unnecessary) idea in the first place. It's time he did.

        peace …


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      • pattersonp

        There is a limit to hysteria, and paranoia. Arnie spouting his 2 pieces of absolute horror every other day to some podcast and then asking for donations so he can 'continue' and keep up his schtick of endlessly telling us HIS supposed expert take… his views are enlightening to say the least, but they are not to be taken as fact and as some mentioned, he aims to 'debunk' TEPCO, so automatically he's 'right' since TEPCO is assumed 'wrong'.

        If you are any socrates you should know there is absolutely positively no absolute truths in this world, and the more you do the dialectic method the more you realize how little you will ever know about anything you think you know.


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        • Jebus Jebus

          "There is a limit to hysteria, and paranoia."

          Yes, but it seems there is no limit to ignorance and stupidity.

          Tyying to discredit one source amongst many that support and correlate each other is the ultimate hubris of a very tiny man.


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          • Bones Bones

            Just remember we all make mistakes and the nature of the internet means your mistake lives forever even after a correction. People all make mistakes including myself and everyone here. My comments make no sense over half the time. lol Arnie is very conservative as others pointed out and has earned his respect and title as "Expert," unlike most those "experts" on TV who are just assumed respect.


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        • Socrates

          Pattersonp,

          Arnie has identified the nuclear safety issues. We go issue, rule, analysis, conclusion.

          I have litigated some metal failure issues that happened on a nuclear sub. I work with the world's finest engineers bar none. Arnie is absolutely world class. He can only identify the issues…

          The solutions to Fukushima are few, if any. First do no harm – the physicians' motto. I have information that TEPCO is listening to ARNIE. He has thankfully identified numerous safety issues in TELCOs slick PR concerning rod removal.

          We are on the precipice of the world's largest man-made catastrophe in history. This could be the end of history…

          Arnie is the man of the hour and of the year. You are a blogger – big difference.

          Arnie has raised some legitimate concerns and they are listening. How to fix this mess is unknown. A thousand years from now, mankind will still be dealing with this mess. The Japanese, in general, and pro-bikers specifically, have NEVER have listened to anyone since they are connected to the defense industry. Asbestos and chemical disasters have been ignored in Japan because of deficiencies in their legal system and their general attitudes, values and beliefs. This is changing slowly – too slowly in my opinion.


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    • VanneV anne

      30 years in the making. There are 53 reactors and many nuclear reactor accidents in Japan over the past 30 years. Health effects from nuclear energy are exponentiating and spiking even more after Fukushima.

      Or go back to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Nuclear power plants are making specific statistics difficult because there is cancer all over. Just like transporting and incinerating nuclear waste all over Japan means everyone shares the fate of those close to Fukushima.

      With so many nuclear power plants less able to see the generational damage from Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

      Just as in the US, there are so many nuclear power plants and so many ill health effects, less able to quantify exactly what is caused by nuclear testing.

      The nuclear culture is quickly killing off the human genome and every genome, causing sterility, and causing all life to become extinct on earth.


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      • Cisco Cisco

        Daiichi has provided a relief valve, literally, for hundreds of other NPP's to accelerate regular, sometimes daily releases/discharges of accumulated radioactive gases. *SOP permitted by the US NRC

        Now local spikes from NPP's in atmospheric radioactivity can be attributed to Fukushima Daiichi, not the real culprits…your friendly neighborhood NPP.


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        • VanneV anne

          To minimize the meltdowns and failures of the SFPs of Fukushima Daiichi is extremely prejudicial. We need tp shut down all nuclear reactors worldwide.

          There is no way the world can sustain another meltdown on the scale of the Fukushima disaster and other nuclear accidents that have happened in Japan.

          Fukushima Daiichi alone is 1000s of times worse than Chernobyl. Chernobyl is responsible for for 1.5 million deaths and the number will keep rising. 1000 times 1.5 million is over a trillion deaths, many times over the 7.5 billion population of the earth.

          The death of the Pacific Ocean is directly attributable to Fukushima.


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      • flagit flagit

        http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0206634/?ref_=nm_knf_t1

        this was a pretty decent movie a few years ago. people just stop being born. the worlds youngest person is 28 years old. i thought it would come from gmo food, not a reactor meltdown.


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  • Gradius

    Pretty sure 40 million will die in 10~15 years there. And NO this ain't fiction.


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    • Kassandra

      What is the basis for your extrapolation?


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      • Canuck1

        <i>What is the basis for your extrapolation?</i>

        COMMON SENSE…Just the numbers are too low..


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        • Kassandra

          I agree but I have to use data to persuade the people I'm targeting.

          I've tried to make projections but came to realize the dose-effect models are all bogus because they don't address bioAccumulation and magnification, nor do they address the myriad other effects on health,

          Still, I yearn for firm numbers, so I could persuade others of the perils confronting us.


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          • see AGR links above, there plenty of experts and numbers you can use.

            We are curious, why no one seems to use A Green Road Project to get data, when this site has it all in one easy to find source, and combines all of the leading experts?

            Should we just delete it all, because no one want to see it, and one seems to want to use it?

            What is the problem with it?

            We are curious…


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            • vicky13 vicky13

              I love your site Dr. Goodheart,, I read there all the time!!!

              Thank YOU for all the work you guys do!


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            • We Not They Finally

              We LOVE your website! At the moment, it just might be better if instead of all the photos up front, there is the table of contents. Also, there is some kind of "lock" on the website (that bar all the way on the right?) that can make it hard to get the start-up going. But the pieces are fantastic! You have to keep them up!


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            • MochiMadness

              Dr. Goodheart, I went to AGR and sifted through a good number of the articles.

              Many of them are truly helpful (IMHO) and bring attention to certain topics that receive scant coverage.

              That said. The idea that "Hormesis is the Law of the Land"–you lost me right there.

              Just a quick wiki search told me that even the proponents of this controversial "theory" say clearly that "…However, they cautioned that it is not yet known if radiation hormesis occurs outside the laboratory, or in humans.[8]"

              The National Academy of Science also concluded,
              "The possibility that low doses of radiation may have beneficial effects (a phenomenon often referred to as “hormesis”) has been the subject of considerable debate. Evidence for hormetic effects was reviewed, with emphasis on material published since the 1990 BEIR V study on the health effects of exposure to low levels of ionizing radiation. Although examples of apparent stimulatory or protective effects can be found in cellular and animal biology, the preponderance of available experimental information does not support the contention that low levels of ionizing radiation have a beneficial effect. At this time, the assumption that any stimulatory hormetic effects from low doses of ionizing radiation will have a significant health benefit to humans that exceeds potential detrimental effects from radiation exposure at the same dose is unwarranted."

              cont'd…


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              • MochiMadness

                It was offensive to me that I and others in my field would be painted with this obscure, broad brush.

                I had to look this term up, since it has not ever come up in any presentation, conference, or professional discussion that I have ever had, been party to or heard about.

                The contention that "hormesis is the law of the land" is hyperbolic—and this is where you lose common sensical, logic and data driven people like me.

                Just one person's opinion, as you asked.


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      • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

        Here is a very good task for the extrapolation formula.

        Number 1 add up all above ground tests for all Nuclear Weapons and then calculate the total weight of the radioactive material released into the atmosphere from all worldwide testing above ground.

        Number 2 then add up the total weight of all Nuclear Power Plant disaster releases world wide. Fukushima appears to in a situation where the radioactive contamination now being released will never ever be turned off. Out of control "sitting star" thing… :( Puke!

        So, the above ground Nuclear Weapon tests are said to have given 60,000,000 people cancer worldwide.

        Draw your comparisons and compare the weights (released) to deaths and then cancer diagnosis and there should be your answers.. :)


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        • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

          I always hate to be the bearer of bad news but it os getting worse and the Nuclear Cancer Plague moved in waves in the recent past after such incidents, weapon tests, blow ups of Nuclear facilities.

          We seem to be reaching a bioaccumulation point very quickly now, since the releases have been unrelenting and like clockwork around the world over the past 60 years.

          We are running out of time as a species and must change this current path and eliminate this Nuclear Technology as quickly as possible from the Planet's surface.

          Some people do not like it when I talk truthfully about slicing/cutting off women's breasts as a daily occurrence now in the news.

          But now I am talking about slicing/cutting out lungs too! This is all very bad and should not be happening at all on this Planet's surface and all the "Pink Ribbons" and donation money in the world will not be able change our future fates. Shut all this "Nuclear Technology" down now!

          More pain for the many and yes.. non smokers to boot! :(
          http://news.yahoo.com/why-lung-cancer-rising-among-nonsmoking-women-204709258.html


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          • flatsville

            >>>Shut all this "Nuclear Technology" down now!<<<

            Write that check yet so some enviro group can bring a lawsuit to challenge re-licensing???

            No???

            Then you're just blowing long and hard…like so many here.

            Screaming about it on the comments board of an internet site doesn't make it happen.


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            • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

              Flats, Always get a kick out of your comments. I am afraid if you and your buddies in the legal community need money to save the world.. then frankly the world is then screwed.

              Do you think I get paid to spend my time here? Do you think anne or the Dr. gets paid to comment here too? Do you think anyone gets paid to spend many hours at a time here to comment and/or spread information/links and research? Do you think anyone got paid for their years of research and then the reading of volumes of information freely to arrive at this point in their learning curves?

              Now maybe, just maybe, there are some here that are paid in the shill category, but I am sure they are few and far between.

              Either people with the skill (lawyers) are willing to change the laws on their own dime or the world simply keeps going down in the flames of a ongoing radioactive contamination cancer plague.

              Legal funds? Really?

              You mean to tell me that thousands US/international lawyers are not willing to donate a measly 5 hours of their own time a week.. to save the world? :(

              I have come to the conclusion that a world run and then controlled by the desire of more money is a world that is doomed to end in disaster and we are not far from the end point from what I see going on around this planet.

              It does not look very promising that we humans/other life will be here gracing this planet very much longer. :(

              When your greatest hope is landing on a dead planet like Mars you know your in…


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              • flatsville

                >>>. I am afraid if you and your buddies in the legal community need money to save the world.. then frankly the world is then screwed.<<<

                and

                >>>Either people with the skill (lawyers) are willing to change the laws on their own dime or the world simply keeps going down in the flames of a ongoing radioactive contamination cancer plague.<<<

                Research magically appears…Associates, Paralegals and other support staff work for free…The utility doesn't expect to be paid during the period you're trying to shut down their NPP…etc…

                You are truly deluded if you think funding doesn't have a bearing on a suit getting filed or not and there's scads of enviro lawyers who can self-fund their work.

                Keep posting the "Shut them all down!" nonsense. Magical thinking rarely works, but perhaps if you put it in CAPS with more !!! behind it that will make the difference.


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                • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                  5 hours of free work per week is not rocket science and you simply do not see the big picture. This is not about money. This is about saving the planet from certain doom. Those paralegals can enjoy their cancer treatments just like all those lawyers who are now too busy in the near future.. :(


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                  • MochiMadness

                    I like the way you think, Obewan. Everything has a pricetag–according to Flats.

                    What I find interesting (and profoundly sad) is that people who say things like this–"My time isn't FREE, ya know!" are the first ones in line to get the free vaccine or demand that the gov't step in and help them during a disaster (Socialist!!!)

                    Flats, Obewan is right, and you know it. Just one lawyer donating 5 hours of time a month? Okay, just a drop in the ocean.

                    According to the American Bar Assoc, the number of LICENSED LAWYERS – 2010. 1,225,452. That was 3 years ago. Can you imagine the problems to be solved if each one donated 5 hours, or even half of them did?

                    There is no purpose or necessity to commoditizing every single thing on this planet–i.e. compassion, common sense, or the common good.

                    We're all on the same boat.


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                    • flatsville

                      You are then welcome to "blog-up" and organize the cadre of international lawyers working 5 hrs. each with no funding for admin support, filing fees etc…

                      Let me now how that works out for you.

                      I find it odd than people who are supposedly anti-nuke begrudge enviro group and their lawyers (who by and large make very little compared to their peers in private practice) the financial means to pursue suits that would close down nuclear power plants.

                      Odd how the people who scream "Nuclear Power is killing us, ya know." are the first people to expect someone else to foot the bill.

                      But stupid is as stupid does…and you get what you pay for.

                      Some people will get dead.


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                    • Jebus Jebus

                      "But stupid is as stupid does…and you get what you pay for."

                      Ya, no matter how much money you throw down, you can't fix stupid.

                      Flats, you have been on a blog for two days telling everyone, on that blog, how stupid it is to blog about these issues.
                      Where does that put you?

                      You have part of it wrong. The way to a nuclear plants heart is to take away it's nutrition. Take the money away. Make it financially unviable to operate these radiation plants. Litigation of any kind will only be drowned in cash from the other side.
                      The answer is to put in place more viable alternatives. Replace the cash cow with an empty piggy bank. If your gonna spend any cash, invest into alternative energy. That is what is happening today. No one entity or litigation killed Trojan or San Onofre. It was that the low return on investment that made it not profitable and shut then down.
                      As for blogging. It is not to be used for stopping anything. It is for awareness. When enough of the public opinion is against nuclear, the politicians will jump on for fear of losing their jobs in the next election.
                      Again it is a matter of taking the money away, not adding more and public opinion that will/is killing these aged monsters.
                      I'm sure your mantra will find fault with any or all of my response.
                      Have fun…


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                    • flatsville

                      Agreed that more renewable energy makes nuclear less economically vaible. RES are uneven throughout the US. Utilities will still continue to operate NPPs as long and hard as they can using duct tape and bailing wire without challenges.

                      Oh, and you need enviro group lawyers to defend the RES which are constantly being challeneged by Utilities. Recent examples are AZ, MO among other states where the RES had to be defended before the PSC or in court.

                      Utilities don't like it when their customers go off the reservation and making their own power.

                      And if you can get a NPP to shut down, the decomissioning and waste removal often ends up in court. Remember, the Utility doesn't want to do a good job…just a cheap job if no one is looking.

                      You might want to read a detailed history on a plant closing and then call the group or groups that led the case and ask how much it cost them. It will be an eye opener.


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                    • flatsville

                      >>>Flats, you have been on a blog for two days telling everyone, on that blog, how stupid it is to blog about these issues.<<<

                      My point has been there's been a great deal of time and energy wasted on spitballing and handwringing over Fuku when the info is bad, incomplete or filled with lies to the exclusion of watching the dangerous NPP in your own backyard.

                      And apparently the vocal minority of anti-nuke enenews posters don't want to contribute to anti-nuke groups to shut down the nuke plants.


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                    • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                      Jebus,
                      There is no need to be negative and I think its great that Flats is here and finally getting involved somewhat with the rest of us bloggers. He has his way of doing things and it's OK and yes it sounds like he has been very successful in several cases and for that I am very grateful for all that he is willing to do to help our cause.

                      He is one of the cogs in the wheel that is being built and growing larger and stronger by the day. WE are not the only ones in the world that see we are heading down the wrong paths in so many directions. Most of these directions chosen have been somewhat fixable for the most part with a little tweaking.

                      The huge problem with Nuclear Power/Energy is when it goes wrong or goes bad it then becomes a not fixable entity as is the case in Chernobyl, still to this day, and now in our latest arrivals with the 3 core meltdowns in Fukushima. :(

                      I hope Flats knows others he can bring to the growing wheel that are willing to show up and then pull a chair back at the big table. :)

                      When you have something that is not fixable the common sense thing to do is then trow it away and be sure never to buy it again. :)

                      That would be Nuclear Power Plants in any form.


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                    • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                      oops..then "throw" it away and be sure never to buy it again.


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                    • Jebus Jebus

                      I find it curious that you think you know what anyone here does on their time away from this blog. You haven't got a clue, you just want to make noise about your percieved notions. How is that differen't from anyone here?
                      Sounds to me that you don't like ENENEWS spreading awareness about the nuclear lie…
                      Should Admin just shut it down because you don't think it is doing any good?


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                    • Jebus Jebus

                      "You might want to read a detailed history on a plant closing and then call the group or groups that led the case and ask how much it cost them. It will be an eye opener."

                      I have lived less than 20 miles from Trojan NPP for most of my life. I feel that I have reviewed the issues. They still guard the spent fuel rods there today…

                      Obe, Yes, flats has a right to be here and express his views, but not at the expense of others views. State the point and move on. Go OT, if you wish to carry on endlessly.


                      Report comment

                    • flatsville

                      Many attorneys, consultants, political field support are at the nuclear table.

                      Many (like me) also want a full set of real silverware to get the job done rather than a spork.


                      Report comment

                    • flatsville

                      Jebus,

                      Then how much did the Trojan shut down cost the anti-nukes?

                      (I'll take late 1990 dollars unadjusted for inflation since apparently the worst of it wasn't over till then.)

                      Socrates,

                      Any idea how much SONGS cost anti-nukes over the years to shut down?


                      Report comment

                    • Jebus Jebus

                      It's irrelevent, the cash flow, ROI engine died for the utility.
                      Take the money away and you kill the business.
                      Trojan died because the cost to repair the steam generators was too much.
                      San Onofre died because the cost to replace the steam generators was too much. They knew that the warranty from Hitachi was not a given.
                      A viable business model is about cash flow and ROI period…
                      See a pattern here?


                      Report comment

                    • flatsville

                      The pattern I see is a belief that NPPs get closed all on their own and a refusal to recognize that anti-nuke groups played any role or incurred any costs and no interest in discovering any evidence to the contrary.


                      Report comment

                    • Jebus Jebus

                      Spin it any way you want. Not once did I say anti-nuke did not incur costs. They did. So did PGE as you pointed out. What shut it down was the operating cost to reinforce the plant against earthquakes and the final leak in the steam generator tubes necessitating replacement.

                      In 1992, Portland General Electric (PGE) spent $4.5 million to defeat ballot measures seeking to close Trojan.[11] It was the most expensive ballot measure campaign in Oregon history until the tobacco industry spent $12 million in 2007 to defeat Measure 50.[12] A week later the Trojan plant suffered another steam generator tube leak of radioactive water, and was shut down[citation needed]. It was announced that replacement of the steam generators would be necessary. In December 1992, documents were leaked from the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission showing that staff scientists believed that Trojan might be unsafe to operate[citation needed]. In January 1993, chief plant engineer David Fancher, acting as spokesman for PGE, announced the company would not try to restart Trojan.

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_Nuclear_Power_Plant

                      I was there. If you wish to continue your distraction, I will only respond in the OT nuke thread. Please come prepared…


                      Report comment

                    • flatsville

                      Some info on the costs to Friends of the Earth in closing SONGS.

                      http://www.scpr.org/news/2013/06/12/37678/a-david-vs-goliath-tale-of-how-a-small-environment/

                      >>>The legal maneuvering by the six lawyers Friends of the Earth had working on the case turned out to be key. The group argued that Edison should have to go through lengthy hearings – similar to a trial – before restarting.

                      In May, a panel at the Nuclear Regulatory Commission – or NRC – sided with the group.

                      “We knew that this was a very hefty well reasoned ruling when we didn’t hear a lot of objections coming from Edison when it was handed down,” said Pica.

                      At the time, officials at the NRC insisted the decision wasn’t as definitive as it seemed and suggested the plant could still restart without lengthy hearings.

                      But Edison executives concluded that the ruling meant they had less than a 50 percent chance of restarting before the end of year. And that meant keeping the plant staffed with about 1,500 workers – while waiting for a decision – no longer made financial sense.

                      “Rather than continue to spend approximately $30 million a month to keep the plant ready for restart and prolong the uncertainly surrounding the plant, we have decided to no longer seek restart,” Edison CEO Theodore Craver told analysts on Friday.<<<

                      Challenge and delay works as a strategy again.


                      Report comment

            • Socrates

              Friends of the Earth did a good job on getting SONGS shut down. They have good lawyers and enough money to litigate against Southern California Edison. After licensing or relicensing hearings, the case goes to federal court for a writ of mandate. There the loser might have to lay fees and costs. SCE backed off with the help of Senator Boxer.

              It is naive to believe that several lawyers can donate a few hours. The fact is that many lawyers did donate time. Litigation, as you know, requires years of commitment and hundreds of thousands of dollars for costs and expert witness fees. Blogging is NOT enough!

              You must donate time and money and go to meetings. I do all three for this cause. But without Friends of the Earth and inside whistleblowers and a massive grassroots campaign, we would have gotten nowhere.

              I'll speak at the NRC in Carlsbad on Monday as what to do with SONG's spent fuel. This caps three years of pro bono work and contributions and communications to key politicians.

              This is activism, blogging is playing the game, "Ain't it awful!" That is not enough.


              Report comment

              • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                Very good and since the cancer rates were going through the roof, it was the right thing to do.

                Now why are any Nuclear Power Plants still operating in the USA? Gee, I can't use a cell phone in a care anywhere in the country? Every child below a certain weight needs a car seat? Should I go on?

                Wake up boys and girls…you need to go up to the top of the rung and bring it down on everybody all at once. A complete shut down of all of it.

                What happened in Southern Cal will happen all across the country and you now have established precedence and it is now set in stone… :)


                Report comment

                • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                  oops.. I can't use a cell phone in a "car" anywhere


                  Report comment

                  • Socrates

                    Right. And I also worked with epidemiologists and toxicogists in proposing the California Nuclear Safety Study which has now been published by Joseph Mangano and Janet Sherman, M.D.

                    I presented this proposal to the City Council in San Clements. Rather than to help fund the study, the passed a resution, as did neighboring cities to shut down SONGS.

                    NPPs in "normal" operation cause deleterious health effects on pregnant women, fetuses and children, as well as adults.

                    Just imagine when they melt down.

                    The German study was the most persuasive. There are 60 others. Alec Baldwin is into this issue. We need more Hollywood people since they play well to the media.


                    Report comment

                • flatsville

                  >>>?
                  This is ridiculous…
                  >>>Wake up boys and girls…you need to go up to the top of the rung and bring it down on everybody all at once. A complete shut down of all of it.

                  What happened in Southern Cal will happen all across the country and you now have established precedence and it is now set in stone… :) <<<

                  Wake up to what Socrates is telling you. It didn't happen overnight and it cost MONEY.

                  Wake up and write a check.

                  Also, if you've been paying attention at all, this is not the first time a lawsuit shut down a NPP or stopped one from being built.

                  There's plenty of precedent. There's a lack of funding.

                  Put up or shut up.


                  Report comment

                  • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                    You have the opportunity right now to shut them all down and either you go to the top and directly to the White House and yes the Congress and get them all shut down or I am afraid they your followers in your trade will still be pecking when you are all dead and gone! :(

                    See the Big Picture for once and quit thinking about long term money… :(

                    Fukushima is your pivot point.. :)


                    Report comment

                    • flatsville

                      You have the opportunity to put your money where your mouth is. I already have.

                      The Big Picture takes Big Money…and utilities are using your own money that you pay to keep your lights on to fight you when you try to close down their toxic NPP.

                      What is it about funding the opposition separately since your are funding the pro-NPP attorneys that you don't get?

                      "Pecking" ??? Do you even think before you keboard?


                      Report comment

                    • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                      Do you know what pecking means? Are you going to run around and peck at 105 nuclear reactors?


                      Report comment

                    • Socrates

                      Obewanspeaks,

                      Yes. Agreed.

                      Keep in mind that tort liability would end nuclear power.

                      Lawyers are good at identifying issues but are often one-trick ponies when it comes to activism which has many fronts.

                      Write to your representatives, picket, show up to meetings.

                      No bodies, no action.

                      Just blogging means sure defeat. Organize using netroots. Just blogging is an admission of impotence, politically speaking.

                      Never give up, and let them know that you won't.


                      Report comment

              • flatsville

                Nice to see that soneone understands the process and got directly invoved.

                The idea that some lawyers can donate a few hours here and there belies a level of naievete that is frightening. Little wonder we're getting smoked in some places.

                These fights do take years against a well funded oppo with almost unlimited $$$.


                Report comment

                • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                  Your pecking and instead you the (legal brain trust) should all be swatting.. ;)

                  You really do not have much time left and/or years to keep on pecking.. :(

                  You will miss the boat and it is sailing right now…Fukushima is the pivot thrust you all needed.. :)

                  Get it done right now.. in one fell swoop! :)


                  Report comment

                  • flatsville

                    More magical thinking and cheer leading…Yep, you can take THAT to the bank.


                    Report comment

                    • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                      Why do you keep talking about money? Bank?


                      Report comment

                    • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                      I guess I now see/understand the intelligence of the German people and why they chose to start shutting down all their Nuclear Industry and that they decided not to "peck" at the very visible problem called (Nuclear Power/Radiation Contamination) which is now killing the entire Pacific Ocean and all else it's created poison comes into contact with… :)

                      Gee, we have plenty of scientific journals that state the exact same thing and I guess the real difference is that they actually read the material presented. :)

                      Oh well they can't take that to the bank now either since the decision has already been made by their very wise ones… :)

                      How many lawyers won't make money now by dragging it all out by pecking… :(


                      Report comment

                    • Gasser Gasser

                      To me, obewanspeaks makes total straight wording no bullshit logic, Lawyers grease bullshit for them and their clients for the payola end product, money is their habitual game, time to get off the fake litigation toilet boy's cause the ass wipe will soon be contaminated also and no amount of immorally earned money will save your litigating okolie's as you will soon be shoveling dirt with pansy un-callous money hands burying your dead loved ones…ya man the truth will hurt when the Plutonium Judge slams the ELE death gavel down.


                      Report comment

                    • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                      Gasser you see the problem clearly too! :)

                      I remember a Governor who not long ago could have brought online an invention that would have reduced CO2 emissions from engines by 40% and his quoted line was:

                      What's in this for me? :(

                      Invention still sits idle… :(


                      Report comment

                • StPaulScout StPaulScout

                  I think flatsville has a valid point. Money IS the bulldozer that pushes the pile. If you want to legislate against nuclear power, your gonna need a damned big bulldozer…..


                  Report comment

                  • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                    How much did they spend to push the bulldozer in Germany or even in Japan? One meltdown in Chicago or New York and its over for the USA…time for the "wise ones" to wake up!


                    Report comment

                    • flatsville

                      You mean like the END TO NUCLEAR POWER that took place afer TMI?

                      Ooops…

                      Japan is trying to restart nukes. Germany is not the US…and even after TMI and Chernobyl three separate ballot initiatives failed to close down Trojan NPP in Oregon…a plant so troubled it was falling apart.

                      Good luck with that magical thinking. You'll need it.


                      Report comment

                    • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                      Japan is toast and will be no more a nation or an island in less than 20 years… :(

                      This is all just show until it is understood as their new reality.. :(

                      These 3 "sitting stars" can not be turned off now :(

                      All this will have dire impacts on all other first world nations and especially the US doing commerce with them.

                      The multi billion dollar Pacific fishing industry will be gone too in the next 5 years as the word gets out about the radiation contamination spewing 24/7 into the ocean.

                      This is only a matter of time and yes it reality still comith this way… :(

                      Eventually the "wise ones" have to awaken.. :)

                      Mankind chose its "energy path" very unwisely!


                      Report comment

                    • flatsville

                      And the German's are so "wise" they are buying power from nuclear France and dumping their toxic radioactive waste in Italy…or have you forgotten you posted that artcle link over and over again?

                      Yes…very wise.


                      Report comment

                    • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                      TMI happened a long time ago in a place far away at a time when the internet was not so strong and vibrant and growing.

                      Knowledge/danger was kept from the populations on purpose by those in power and still in control.

                      You have a massive meltdown in Chicago or New York today and there wont be any place in the world for "those in control" to run too or hide.. :(

                      This nation will turn "very ugly" overnight.. :(


                      Report comment

                    • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                      Look in your own backyard they are dumping it there too .. :)

                      The mafia did that in 1997 and you think you have no mafia here? :(

                      Wake up!


                      Report comment

                    • flatsville

                      For all the internet's value as a disseminator of info perhaps you haven't noticed that the vast majority of Americans think Fuku is not an issue or are aware that there is a radioactive dump in the greater St. Louis area about to catch fire.


                      Report comment

                    • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                      Flats this paradigm you cling too is a sad reality and its not my or your fault that the American public are so clueless about all of this.

                      The ancient Zeitgeist Matrix design created to control them has been flawless in its implementation through out all sectors.

                      Once they understood how to control everyone the civilization was easy pickings for those that run the ship of fools… :(


                      Report comment

                    • flatsville

                      Yet oddly you expect the masses to rise up and magically do something "wise" so enviro legal funds an court actions aren't necessary.

                      Go figure.


                      Report comment

                    • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                      When 20~40 million are told to vacate and/or relocate..shit will hit the fan on a scale never ever seen before in this nation… :(

                      Reality is what it is and if we do not change our energy paths right now the inevitable will occur and its only a matter of time now.. :(

                      You should pay attention..I am one of the wise ones. :)


                      Report comment

                    • flatsville

                      Let's think this through.

                      We have the internet now. They even have it in Japan.

                      Our own Authorities are lying to us now. The Japanese Authorites are lying to the Japanese.

                      Yet somehow it will be different next time there's a meltdown because of the internet…Hmmm…Magical.

                      I think enviros need to keep filing suits.


                      Report comment

                    • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                      File away but go directly to the top and bring it down on all of it in one fell swoop….end it before it ends us all! :)


                      Report comment

                    • flatsville

                      Write that check to that mythical group of international attorneys working 5 hrs. each. The might need the $$$ for filing fees. Those of us in the reality based world drill down and focus on one issue at a time which produces results.


                      Report comment

                    • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                      Raise the Bar! You are playing inside the cage created specifically for you.. :(


                      Report comment

                    • flatsville

                      I don't play. I work in the realty based world.

                      Why don't you " blog-up" a cadre of international attorneys to work 5 hrs. each. Since you think this doesn't cost any money, it should be no great trick for you.

                      You can do it all over the internet.

                      I have a project.

                      You're in charge.

                      This is your brilliant idea. Run with it.

                      (and stop trying to lay-off the responsibility for execution on someone else.)


                      Report comment

                    • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                      I am sorry, since I thought is was you that was one of the legal "Word Craft" smart ones :)

                      But alas, it appears that I was wrong…. :(

                      Better equipped people will soon show up to the big table.. :)


                      Report comment

                    • flatsville

                      Smart enough not to play in some legal international fantasy world you crafted.

                      Let me know when you "blog-up" those attorneys and put that case together with no funding.


                      Report comment

                    • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                      I wish you the best of luck with your continual ongoing pecking.. :)

                      The rest of world and now the Pacific Ocean are running out of time… :(


                      Report comment

            • We Not They Finally

              flatsville, I find your arrogance a appalling. OBVIOUSLY, the money is on the wrong side. And OBVIOUSLY the MSM is on the wrong side. A lot of things are.

              Education and public awareness are the ways to go. So people get a little over-excited. That's just a big SO WHAT? Most days I feel like going out and screaming is way better than staying home. And if there were an organized outlet for it, I just might.

              Meanwhile, it is FINE for people to blow off steam. All that YOU need, is to CARE more, and to contribute to the screaming, the educating, the public awareness. That's what YOU need. Otherwise, you're in a poor position to judge others to say the least.


              Report comment

              • flatsville

                I find your handwringing appalling. Call it education or awareness if it pleases you, but it is defeating and plays into their hands entirely.

                For a ling time I wondered if a great number of people hete weren't paid ELE Doomers to keep the rest from taking any substanitive action.


                Report comment

                • Yeah. If only somebody would pay you (collective) to do something, you (collective) very well might.

                  There are some anti-nukes who have turned it into a well-paying gig. Not enough to count on one hand with names you'd recognize. Most get involved because they can. Others donate to the cause because they can. If everyone did what they can, they'd be shut down tomorrow.

                  Reality takes a little longer than that.


                  Report comment

  • pattersonp

    Here is the english version of the containment link discovery with the robot a few days ago:

    http://cryptome.org/2013/11/daiichi-13-1114.pdf


    Report comment

    • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

      Nice color and what is tis test saying to us all? Things are good?


      Report comment

      • Socrates

        TEPCO has put out many lies and misinformation. Arnie Gundersen deconstructs their latest attempt in his Fairewinds release.

        It is highly dangerous to pull damaged fuel, especially radiation-embrittled spent fuel, from a deformed and sagging pool.

        I do not trust anything TEPCO says. I wish the Japanese would spent the money necessary to bring in the world's best engineers to work on this project.


        Report comment

        • pattersonp

          Anyone could have provided this advice though, I don't understand why he is so trustworthy.

          I just read about 30 reports on Chernobyl fallout, studies, etc., 2 solid articles on BWR and 'spent fuel', and about 6 manuals on nuclear fallout management… I can provide my opinion on Fukushima too.

          I'm just not getting what his angle is and why he cares to tell us this. Mochizuki atleast analyzes the TEPCO handouts every single day for 3 years and is barely surviving the threats of pro-nuke schills, and hunger. His story is nothing short of incredible and he has REAL stake in Fukushima, he fled, wants to start safe zone outside Japan, etc.

          Call me a troll all you want but I see a donate button more than I see actual news from Arnie at this point.


          Report comment

          • Jebus Jebus

            I will take my chances with Arnies info amongst others.
            You do not have many years in the Nuclear industry to provide you with the epiphany that Arnie has come to.
            If you don't realize that Tepco spouts outright bold faced caught in the act lies by now, then you are not paying attention.
            What makes your against the grain views so spot on that you have any validity to discount a professionals opinion of the situation?


            Report comment

          • Socrates

            Pattersonp,

            Your input is appreciated. But putting down Arnie's character is not the way to bolster your own credibility. Snide pro nukes maintained no meltdowns, no danger, Arnie is a bad guy, and events have proved them wrong.

            It takes several years to understand complex issues, assuming you have a background in chemistry, physics and biology with some engineering or architecture.

            You will get nowhere by attacking Arnie, in fact even TEPCO is starting to listen to him about the SFP 4 problem.


            Report comment

            • We Not They Finally

              I actually do NOT appreciate pattersonp's input, though he's free to say what he likes. It becomes pointless to argue with destructive people. If you want to "appreciate" someone, there are a lot of people in these columns that merit the praise!

              This guys just wants attention. This doesn't seem to be an honest broker. It's a good time to cut his cord, not extend it.


              Report comment

        • patb2009

          I'm not sure what can be done about SFP 4.

          If you leave the fuel up there, the pool is going to rot and fail.

          If you pull the fuel, even if many bundles are racked, there is always one element you can pull
          and loosen the packs.

          Frankly they should have done this right after the event started.

          If they want some experience, they should be pulling fuel at other reactors that were less badly damaged, like Daini, or Tokai, get some experience in stuck fuel bundles then go to
          Fuku-Daichi.


          Report comment

    • Sickputer

      +311 pp. Thanks for confirming what I mentioned two days ago about their rubber duckie robot boat. :-)

      They made their discovery sound like they had built an Iron Man or Robo Cop when actually they had a small plastic boat with attached cameras.

      Some poor Tokyo debtors had to launch and retrieve that boat in the hellhole at Unit 1. Hope they had a big IV of Vitamin C before they went Kamikaze in that building. I seriously doubt anyone could survive a similar trip inside Unit 2 or 3. Those buildings are really toxic.


      Report comment

  • ftlt

    Neither did the USA in 2011 on the west coast…

    They were much higher during the high release periods


    Report comment

  • Jebus Jebus

    It is up to the public to end Japan's reliance on nuclear power

    In a speech Nov. 12 at the Japan National Press Club in Tokyo, Koizumi said, “I think it will be good (for Japan) to end (nuclear power generation) immediately.”

    It was a brutally clear message from the mouth of a person who had long been at the center of political power.

    Koizumi’s argument is very simple. Since it is not realistically possible to find a location to build final disposal facilities for radioactive waste in Japan, nuclear power plants should not be operated. This is the kernel of his case against using atomic energy.

    In an opinion poll conducted by The Asahi Shimbun last weekend, 60 percent of the respondents agreed with Koizumi. Among the supporters of the ruling Liberal Democratic Party, 58 percent agreed.

    http://ajw.asahi.com/article/views/editorial/AJ201311140042

    It is up to the public to end Earth's reliance on nuclear power


    Report comment

    • Socrates

      Jebus,

      Could the same argument be made in the US?

      The NRC needs to hear this message, too.


      Report comment

      • Jebus Jebus

        It is up to the public to end USA's reliance on nuclear power…


        Report comment

      • J.

        Gundersen has done a good service by pointing out, again and again and again, that the USA has reactors identical in design (indeed, the copied design) of Fukushima. That alone makes him valuable. I deeply distrust the repeated attacks on his character and motivations in the forum.


        Report comment

        • Socrates

          He helped us at SONGS and his input IS being listened to by TEPCO.

          There is too much danger at Fukushima for TEPCO to act unilaterally in SFP 4.

          They are finally listening to Arnie.

          The extraction of rods requires a comprehensive and deep understanding of the problem. Some is theoretical but much requires experience which Arnie has in this specific area. TEPCO engineers do not have this experience and understanding.


          Report comment

      • IT is all a matter of choice. In every country, county and city, there are GREEN Party candidates that stand for a green future, free of nuclear power. They are there, ready and waiting. The Germans shut down all nuclear by voting GREEN Party.

        No lawyers, no money, no protests needed. Just VOTE.

        One vote by many millions will shut them all down in one fell swoop.

        Of course, the problem is that most people live in fear and/or denial. Most people will not change, because they fear change worse than death. In other words, they would rather DIE than change.

        So instead of voting for the very simple solution that has been there all along, they keep voting FOR the problems, over and over and over, like a fly trapped in a window box. The door is wide open two feet away, but people keep banging their heads against the window.

        Deeper than that… the problem is really about consciousness, and Obewan is pointing at that… Most people live in a very limited fear based consciousness, that is all about lack, separation and lots of denial.

        So if somehow, everyone could taste or visit the 4th dimension and come back, that would lift humanity out of this cliff next to an abyss way of looking at the world.

        All of the answers are there, but then illusion has taken hold, (money, greed, power) specifically among the 1%. They control the reigns of power, politics and money right now.

        Votes trump all of that, for aware, conscious beings.

        Not voting is like…


        Report comment

        • We Not They Finally

          Dr. G., you make good points, especially about Germany. Like we didn't vote for Nader because this country is so two-party, that that would SPLIT the vote. But after looking at Obama condoning and covering-up an outright ELE, and thinking o.k., now we have NO ONE to vote for, the landscape may change.

          Maybe if a majority, not just plurality were needed to win, and 40% voted for "none of the above"? But that gets dicey in America. It's a conundrum. Worth talking about but hard to solve.


          Report comment

    • nedlifromvermont

      Go public … Robbie Lepzer's film in production, named for an Albert Einstein quote, "To The Village Square"

      should be out in six months or so … the story of a Vermont public getting engaged …

      some good footage … especially of the Grannies ….

      You be watching, Grampybone!

      peace to all the 'newsers!


      Report comment

    • We Not They Finally

      Jebus, that polling number is actually weird. Before it was upwards of 80% that wanted nuke power ended in Japan, not 60%. The real number may be 95% by now for all we know. We actually don't know. Polls can get falsified like anything else.


      Report comment

  • TheBigPicture TheBigPicture

    Citizens never wanted nuclear plants.

    But the plants are built anyway.


    Report comment

  • nedlifromvermont

    @TBP … I know General Electric is not a citizen, although the law treats him as such …

    But Lewis Strauss (curse him to Hell) and all the other Boneheaded nuke pukes were and still are citizens … (Alvin Weinberg etc.)

    So some citizens gave this shit to us.

    What were the rest of us stooges thinking?

    peace!


    Report comment

    • We Not They Finally

      We're not "stooges" and a lot of bad cooks made up that broth. There has been a corruption of Americans' very capacity to THINK for many decades now.

      But there are also a majority of Americans not even yet alive when this began. So what education can happen and what can be mobilized NOW? We need young blood in on this, and badly.


      Report comment

  • Alpha1

    Maybe it is not the curse to hell it is the fact there had been a hand of something greater involved an act of GOD mother nature. time to start thinking in the way of the peaceful warrior and be just that warriors for the cause of the mother earth and humanity!!!

    God help us take our children before they suffer… See nothing has happened get a grip and become active in the fight to save this planet and all humanity…

    Billions of fish in the ocean have died and when the ocean is dead the food chain to man dies as well. What are we going to do about it!!! Talk no join us at http://www.gdr.org read about the truth we had vision on years before this happened, http://www.radiationalerts.blogspot.com and donate to help find cures and new technologies to save our planet and our human meager existence!!!!


    Report comment

  • Songie Songie

    if the japanese are hiding data now, just wait til this "state-secret protection law" goes into effect:

    http://ajw.asahi.com/article/views/editorial/AJ201311160024

    radiation, what radiation? cancer, what cancer?

    you 'betcha!


    Report comment

  • markww markww

    pattersonp It seems you have a thorn inside of you about Arnie Gundersen and try to knock him down at every step of the way Your either a SHILL or some Guy who wants to throw monkey wrenches into this whole thing. You your self do not know what the future is NO ONE DOES but Arnie and others and people here on the site try to understand what is going on, from the yesterday's to the tomorrows.

    Some of us even try to stop the disaster one micro at a time. FUKUSHIMA is FINISHED, the plant is no longer any good just DEATH NOW TO THE WORLD and JAPAN. AND THAT IS FACT Markww


    Report comment

  • rogerthat

    People like Gunderson, Kan, Koizumi say as much as they feel they can, imho. They live in the real world, and its a world of silence. I think they expect us to read between the lines, and use common sense.


    Report comment

  • Socrates

    I heard that plans to pull fuel rods from SFP 4 have been put on hold. Arnie's latest Fairewinds release deconstructs TEPCO's propaganda piece. Their plan overlooks too many dangers involved such as corrosion, broken, bent and fused rods and a bent pool, etc.

    The earthquake scale used in Japan is a different scale. The recent quakes are 7s. While there is an urgency to remove the fuel, a different approach will probably have to be employed.

    The fear is that assemblies and rods could stick together. The crane cables are not strong enough. Either the rods and bundles could be ruptured or drop. There is much embrittlement of metal in spent fuel assemblies.

    It is possible that the pool could be entombed or lowered down..
    This engineering problem requires much heavier equipment and possibly a different approach. We only get one chance to do it right.


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  • Alpha1

    If there are 1.3 trillion max doses of radiation that have already happened we would have to give all of the future of mankind to be the = to what has already been released. Radiation Nation is the understatement of the creation.

    We have already killed everyone, we are going to have to do what we can to make our last days good ones. I would think that if the world truly knew what Arnie and the people that have built these plants know. Wow the mass panic would have gone out of control in 2011. It is time to get good with whatever you have for a higher power and all that are around you. As the doc said it is time to get all your affairs in order you are dying!!!

    You are indeed dying a day now is roughly 24 years of absorption the shell may not seem to be aging but it is and soon it will be a day is 100 years so forth and so on. Time has been increased as it would be written get ready!!!! The clock is about to run out as the hands of time have been sped up, to everyone I say I know not one of you but I hope you live with pride and take care of yourselves keep your children close and hold your head up high and note you had nothing to do with the end of time!!!!


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  • flatsville

    >>>Are you going to run around and peck at 105 nuclear reactors?<<<

    Pray tell… What grand national legal strategy that two or three generation of enviro lawyers have missed?…Is it magical?


    Report comment

    • flatsville

      …and doesn't cost money to execute?

      Do tell…


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      • flatsville

        obewan,

        Still waiting on that grand national srategy a la Germany to be applied in the US…that doesen't cost any money to execute.

        And it didn't happen overnight and the NPP shut downs were/are phased.

        And Germany is buying some power from nuclear France.

        http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE74Q2P120110531?irpc=932

        Oh, and have you accounted for the difference in political organization and structure between the two countries?

        Wave that magical thinkig wand of yours and give us the grand plan suitable to the US.


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        • Mack Mack

          Actually it's the other way around.

          France imports power FROM Germany.

          "France, which does not have generating capacity sufficient to meet its peak demand and therefore imports at times of high demand, largely from Germany. "

          http://www.renewablesinternational.net/german-power-exports-up-by-62-percent/150/537/68613/

          And as a reminder, Germany is producing the energy-equivalent of 20 nuclear power plants with Solar Energy alone, and they're having the same success with Wind Energy.

          Also, nuclear-dependent France not only has to import power from Germany and the UK, they are also heavily dependent on Natural Gas imports. France is the 4th largest consumer of imported Natural Gas.


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          • flatsville

            And then there's thesetwo sentences later in the article.

            >>>The situation is different in France, which does not have generating capacity sufficient to meet its peak demand and therefore imports at times of high demand, largely from Germany. In return, its nuclear plants do not like to ramp down, so it exports a lot of power at low prices (partly to Germany, but also to Switzerland and Italy) at times of low demand.<<<

            So, Geremany is still buying from nuclear France…but they are getting on the plus side of the equation.


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            • Mack Mack

              Well, to confuse things even more :) read this:

              "One odd aspect in the reporting of power imports and exports is that Germany consistently reports net power imports vis-à-vis France. In other words, the French claim to be net importers of power from Germany, but simultaneously the Germans claim to be net importers from France. According to German grid expert Bruno Burger, who produces this highly recommended slideshow of the German power grid, Germany is actually a transit country for power that France sells to Switzerland and Italy. In all likelihood, the French are therefore counting actual sales, whereas the Germans are counting power flows irrespective of who ends up buying the electricity."

              Repeating:

              "Germany is actually a transit country for power that France sells to Switzerland and Italy. In all likelihood, the French are therefore counting actual sales, whereas the Germans are counting power flows irrespective of who ends up buying the electricity."

              http://www.renewablesinternational.net/france-net-power-exporter-except-to-germany/150/537/59937/

              This all gets into another subject of >> energy-buying and selling << with thousands of daily energy transactions between energy sellers and buyers, the energy market, and power-purchase agreements.


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  • flatsville

    >>>Why do you keep talking about money? Bank?<<<

    Because as Socrates has explained lawsuits take years and money fuels them…it doesn't fall from the sky either…unlike contaminated fall out.

    Real activism requires you to push away from the keyboard, open a check book and get directly involed,as he does, if you can offer anything of substance other than money.


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    • Socrates

      Yes, flatsville,

      We must avoid the temptation to sit back and rubber neck at a 50-car pileup on the freeways and talk of drunk drivers. We must get active like MADD.

      I encourage everyone to get active in consumer rights. The fight is in the City Councils, in the Statehouses, in the Halls of Congress, through netroots, and grassroots.

      The courthouse used to be the crucible of change in this country but no more. Judicial activism from the right ended this. Yet, there is a time for the lawyers toshow up in court or at the public utilities ccommissions or at the NRC with experts. That costs money.

      Film makers, writers and bloggers must write and above all – organize into effective organizations. It begins at the grassroots level and continues to the top boardrooms and presidents.

      I have been at this for for decades. It is a losing battle to date because too few get active and place their time, money and talents behind effective strategies. Many trial lawyers were essentially defeated by the Exxon-Valdez case in Alaska. The BP lawyers did well to an extent.

      The Price-Anderson Act gives nuclear energy companies little incentive to provide safety since their liability is severely capped beginning in 1957. Remove that cap and nuclear energy goes away.

      If the nuclear industry had to pay damages, the market would kill it. It is that simple. Same goes for Fukushima.


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      • Socrates

        The only reason TEPCO takes chances and cuts corners is freedom from tort liability. The Nuclear Big Brother needs or needed a supply of enriched materials so the peaceful atom bit was conceived to justify the trillions spent in the Cold War, "Scare the helm out of 'em, Harry (Truman)!" Sound familiar?

        Now who is the enemy we "need" to nuke? A guy in a cave? Our trading partner China?

        Alternative energy can rescue us from nuclear and carbon. But no one can rescue us from ourselves soong as the current modes and paradigms are profitable. Let unregulated by tort liability, the market is deadly.

        The new TPP trade agreement will confer tort immunity on bad multinational actors. Obama is pushing this on the fast track. All in secret, mind you.

        Most of you would do better at this point to write to Sanatods and Convresspersons about your concerns.

        Keep on bloggin' though. You will learn much on these threads but you must put this knowledge into action.


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      • flatsville

        Socrates,

        I wish I had you and a couple of dozen more activists of your calibre. You make it work outsise the courtroom and provide important research for those inside. You seem to instinctively get it…and yes, I too feel like I've been at this forever.

        If people here spent half the time they spend here spitballing bad info, incomete info and outright lies related to Fuku and rather fight the NPP in their own backyard, we'd all be safer.


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        • Small claims court can work well too. Solutions do not always need a lot of money.

          Agreed, activism is necessary and people need to put their feet where their mouths are, but there are also simple solutions that do not involve money which most people do not have nowadays.

          It would be nice if everyone was making $100,000 a year, but that figure is now reserved for the 1%, who do not have enough, and need more, so they are taking it from the 99% who are just scraping by.

          The whole system is set up for the 1% at this point.. Even fighting them tooth and nail with lots of money in court, as you pointed out, can result in 0… They have the money to appeal all the way to the Supreme Court. Most citizen groups are lucky to get to the first level.

          Courts and lawsuits are the domain of the 1% and the lucky oddballs who once in awhile make a difference for the little guy. Overall, the legal game is rigged in their favor, based on watching many lawsuits over the years and the outcomes long term, after many appeals.

          The one thing that people still have is VOTES. Bottom line, that is the ultimate power..

          So it is sad, when only 20% come out to an election.. and only 50% vote in a national election.

          The 1% count on that… the fewer people that vote, the easier it is to swing the election their way, using corporate controlled media, paid off politicians and rigged districts.


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          • flatsville

            I can't think of a case where anyting lower than a state court would have provided the necessary jurisdiction, legal remedy or financial restitution to be of any value to the plaintiffs. Clean ups run in the millions quite often…far beyond the scope of any small claims court judgement or award.

            >>>Courts and lawsuits are the domain of the 1% and the lucky oddballs who once in awhile make a difference for the little guy.<<<

            Nope. Can't agree. That's what they want you to think.

            The people who bring enviro lasuits aren't the 1% nor are their attoneys in the 1%.

            They are fighting the 1%.


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  • RJ RJ

    A perfect example of corruption of the Japanese government, as well as a danger of socialized medicine.

    Granted, it takes an apathetic population to tolerate this crime.

    Tolerating crimes of the State; fate suffered by all modern industrial nations.

    And BTW, does anyone find it a little interesting that we've had two massive tsunamis withi a 7 year period?


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    • Socialized medicine is to blame? The same corruption, upside down, backwards systemic problem based on greed and profit is here in the US, with privatized for profit medicine, and in all other countries as well, no matter what kind of system that they have.

      The natural, cheap or FREE solutions based on Nature are despised, attacked, vilified, and made fun of, when that is really all that works. Instead, 'modern medicine' uses EXPENSIVE poisons and radiation, plus absolute monopolistic control that does not allow the patient to choose something else. And in most cases, modern medicine also supports and gives credence to the hormesis theory while providing cover for the nuclear industry that radiation is good for you..

      The US has the highest cost for profit private medical system in the world, with the worst outcomes of any civilized nation on Earth… including all of those 'evil' socialized systems.


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      • RJ RJ

        Wow! Little bit of an over reaction I would say. Read my post one more time please. Wait, I'll help you….I said "a" danger. When the government has a tight grip on the pay of doctor, nurses and hospitals, they have a much better control of the statistics, and the independence of doctors.

        I never mentioned "evil" nor did I say the US system was better.


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        • We Not They Finally

          RJ, it's not "over-reaction" at all. You mean medicine (well, and EVERYTHING ELSE) in the hands of fascists. Socialized medicine works well even in the capitalist UK. No one's "over-reacting" — it's your own statement that was over the top.

          By the way, no one in the U.S. private medical system seems to be fighting against the EPA's outrageous raising of the "safe" limits of radioactivity. It takes educating people, both doctors and everyone else, before we can "buck the system." Labels may not help. Accurate info does. But maybe you already know that. Hope so.


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      • MochiMadness

        Dr. Goodheart, I agree with some of what you said, particularly that financially incentivized medicine is the root of the problem. Yes…wholeheartedly YES…alternative medicines (which, btw, I am sure you know, are the precursors to most 'modern' pharmaceuticals! even stronger, in many cases!) are rejected in favor of the for-profit system.

        Now to the "radiation is good for you" statement. I will respectfully and vehemently disagree with you to my dying breath that ANY of us have said in ANY way that "radiation is good for you" in a medical sense. EVER. (unless you're thinking of right wing non medical types like Anne Coulter, then just follow the money)

        It is a cost/benefit analysis. That sounds cold, I know. The benefits sometimes outweigh the risks. NO ONE in this field will EVER tell you that radiation is good. It can do certain things, yes. Radiation Therapy has it's place. I am the first one to admit that at times, we do more harm.

        The public doesn't seem to want to take responsibility for their part in medicine's attitude–to offer any solution, no matter how dangerous.I've personally experienced parents who will beg us to do ANYTHING, no matter the risk, if there is a 1% chance that we can save their child. It's the harsh reality that people will grasp at ANY straw and demand of us that we provide miracles. Then they don't want to take responsibility for the outcome (that we warned them about).


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        • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

          You both are on the same page and as long as everyone is kept in a state of desperation/negative last hope situations we will see more of the same.. :(


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          • MochiMadness

            Obewan, another thing that is a common theme here is apathy.
            In every single thing that we humans think to do nowadays, there is complete apathy. "Is there an easier way?" YES! I can give you that easy way for the low, low price of just $19.99! (plus S&H)

            I heard a saying once, "If hard work is the key to success, most people would rather pick the lock." Everyone wants an answer, make it as cheap as possible, and please don't actually expect me to participate my time/energy/money. I just want the benefits.

            (sliding back to the Anger phase from acceptance, here)

            It's the path of least resistance. It's being said here that doctors/staff would have less freedom under socialized medicine? I disagree. What it would do–is shake out the charlatans, the ones who want to make a killing, the ones who "really don't like people" (like my ex dr. husband). It would keep in place those who do this for the reason medicine originally came into being–to care for the sick. Take money out of the equation–and you get truth.

            Yes, there is an utter lack of will to do any of the hard work, for any reason, unless it impacts you personally. That, sadly, is what got us here.


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  • Edward Edward

    The united states would/will do the same thing.
    Greed and corruption is ruining our planet, the very rich control everything.


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  • Socrates

    From what has been released in terms of Cs 134/137, a never-ending plume of low dose radiation is approaching the West Coast of the United States. The cesium tends to stay near the surface.

    Kelp beds, zoo- and phytoplankton, algae, tend to biomagnify and the kelp-feeders will bioaccumulate the cesium. It has been estimated that levels will be higher in California than in Fukushima.

    People get upset about the value of their real estate more than the effects low dose exposure might have on the health of themselves or their children, as unfortunate as that may be.

    Nuclear power proponents argue that coal.and fossil fuels contribute to acidification of oceans and climate change. These are major concerns. Mankind is addicted to two very destructive forms of energy. Like a junkie who is on meth and heroin and drinks, it is almost impossible to wean off these destructive forms of energy given current population pressures and the level of denial. But withdraw we must.

    We must all work to overcome the smoke screen put forth by the special interests and do the greatest good for the most people.

    The corporate mandate is to make a profit and shift losses to others. That is what must change. Awareness precedes change. Then action must follow.

    Fracking is NOT the answer either. Please work together in solving these threats. Now is the time.

    Peace to all!


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  • flatsville

    Gasser,

    "Fake" litigation didn't shut down SONGS.

    Those working in the "reality based" world of real offices and courtrooms with actvists in the field did.


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    • Maybe activism had something to do with it. Maybe legal challenges did too. But more realistically, it was probably just the fact that they ran out of money and the 'fix' for an old plant was just too expensive and did not pencil out.

      That process is happening all across the country. Yes, lawsuits can hurry that process up a little. Yes, activism can also hurry it up a little. All of these things are good to do.

      But bottom line, voting is what matters. Vote in candidates that are NOT backed by corporate money. Or run for office and promise to shut them all down. And don't take corporate money.. It will corrupt you.

      Vote!

      Every person is important, not just the activists and lawyers.

      Claiming that is the ONLY thing that matters is like the foot and the hand saying they do not need the rest of the body to do their thing…


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      • flatsville

        Delaying re-licensing through litigaion, requiring repair, up-grades, and additional safety specs all add to the cost and eventual decision to shutter in many cases. Wher that kind of challenge doesn't happen, they get out the duct tape and bailing wire. Their worst nightmare is a group or groups watching, demanding and filing and the promise of repeated challenges.


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  • In the Sacramento area, a very young and well operating nuclear plant was shut down by voting… it is a very simple process really.

    No lawsuits, no protests… JUST VOTES.


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  • flatsville

    No lawsuits? Just voting?

    Why do you think there is a judicial branch in the first place?

    I don't get to vote for the PSC, so I'd better be ready to file if they make a hare-brained decision.

    There's 50 states and the law works differently in each one as well as what voters may decide directly or not.


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  • flatsville

    And, I suppose you're aware that Rancho Seco was owned by the Sacramento Municipal Utility District, so a popular vote to close it was an option that doesn't exist for 99& of voters in the US because the majority of NPPs are NOT owned by a municipal utility?


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    • We Not They Finally

      Good case in point. The Vermont Yankee NPP was voted down by the public, then the NRC voted to re-license it ANYWAY. Now it will be de-commissioned, but because of subsequent factors, apparently not that one, the one that should have mattered.


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    • Wyakin Wyakin

      I appreciate the frank debate on effective methods to shut down NPP from all. The contrasting viewpoints on the importance of legislative and judicial action combined with the reflections of Socrates are instructive.

      The most successful efforts appear to be the result of a combination of both legislation and law suits. Opportunity exists where ever it presents itself.

      An often overlooked fact is that 24 US states (that's right, half) allow proposal of a new law or constitutional amendment that is placed on the ballot by petition. That is, citizen petition.

      No matter the chosen course of legal or judicial activism to shut down NPP, it requires public support from votes and/or dollars.
      Neither is achievable without public awareness and education.

      Many look to the recent NPP shut down victories of Vermont Y, Kewanee, Crystal River, San Onofre as the examples of how this process may work. None were easy, and generally required massive effort from numerous parties.

      SONGs, is an excellent example of a multi-tiered success story, but another worthy example I have personal experience with and circulated petitions for is to the North at the Trojan NPP:

      con't


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      • Wyakin Wyakin

        “As concern about these issues spread from environmental and anti-nuclear activists to large segments of the general public, fierce and chronic opposition to Trojan grew. In August 1977, the Trojan Decommissioning Alliance staged the nation’s first occupation of an operating nuclear power plant. Led by activists Nina Bell and Norman Solomon, the occupation drew immense attention to Trojan issue and resulted in eighty-two demonstrators being arrested. The plant’s most persistent critic over the long haul, however, was Lloyd Marbet of a group called Forelaws on Board (FOB). Although Marbet had not participated in the 1977 occupation, he and others pressed ballot initiatives and lawsuits from 1978 to 1995 to end Trojan’s operation and to prevent PGE from passing on construction costs to ratepayers.”

        http://www.oregonencyclopedia.org/entry/view/trojan_nuclear_power_plant/

        The most beautiful and memorable sight that I witnessed from that time:

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf2J6-729Qw

        Flatsville-I would not have fully appreciated your excellent points, were it not for earlier challenges you received from Obe. DGH-good points as well. Thanks to all for the enlightenment.

        Peace.


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        • flatsville

          Great visual on the cooling tower take down. Never seen that.

          Initiative is working well for RES in many states, though groups are constantly defending them in court or before PSCs post passage.

          Where a NPP is owned by a corp as a public utility, your ability to vote on anything related is about non-existent depending on your state.

          I will have to look closer at the Trojan to see what ballot initiatives they used and how they fared post passage.


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  • flatsville

    Multiple anti-nuke ballot measures re: Trojan failed and failed miserably at the polls…odd because the plant was clearly troubled. Siting, shoddy construction etc…It was a mess.

    From what I read, anti-nukes were outspent by a wide margin. It can easily cost 300k-500k (in today's $$$) to run a statewide initiative petition in a medium sized state.

    This is not what I was expecting to see at all.


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    • flatsville

      All votes post TMI; two post Chernobyl. All failed. Damn…

      I want to read a post-mortum.

      >>>In 1986, a ballot measure initiated by Lloyd Marbet for immediate closure of the Trojan plant was failed 35.7% yes to 64.3% no.[7] This proposal was resubmitted in 1990, and again in 1992 when a similar proposal (by Jerry and Marilyn Wilson) to close the plant was also included. Each measure was soundly defeated by vote margins over 210,000 votes.[8][9][10] Although all closure proposals were defeated, the plant operators committed to successively earlier closure dates for the plant.<<<


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      • Wyakin Wyakin

        “In 1992, Portland General Electric (PGE) spent $4.5 million to defeat ballot measures seeking to close Trojan. It was the most expensive ballot measure campaign in Oregon history until the tobacco industry spent $12 million in 2007 to defeat Measure 5.” (WP) As usual, the referendum sponsors were heavily outspent but perhaps this demonstrates the properties of inertia, or separately the effort in which it takes to make changes in a constitutional democracy.

        “Although all closure proposals were defeated, the plant operators committed to successively earlier closure dates for the plant” Post mortem continuation-PGE ultimately announced plant closure, which was the result of two cost components: continuing costs of maintenance and repair without cost recovery ability while the plant was not in operation, and the cost of defending the plant from its detractors. Leaked NRC documents indicating that the plant might be unsafe to operate were also a substantial tipping point.

        PGE was unable (although it subsequently tried) to pass on the cost of the plant while it was not operating to ratepayers based upon another referendum (M9)-1978, Oregon voters adopted by a vote of 69 to 21% a ballot measure to prohibit utilities from charging ratepayers any cost of plants not currently providing utility service to customers.

        http://www.cheappower.org/urp_trojan.htm

        cont


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        • Wyakin Wyakin

          “Groups are constantly defending them in court or before PSCs post passage” Yes, this happened in this case as well.

          The Trojan debate made it significantly easier to pass another referendum in 1980 (M7), a ballot measure to ban construction of further nuclear power plants in the state without federally approved waste facilities, approved by the voters 608,412 (53.2%) to 535,049 (46.8%).

          Many lessons can be learned about the efforts and approaches required from this case as well as from those in recent history.

          Peace.


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        • flatsville

          I am stunned that PGE spent million to defeat that 1992 ballot measure. They certainly knew by then the plant was troubled…and it was their only nuke plant. Unless they were planning to build another (which I doubt because the 1980 ballot measure re: waste DID pass,) it made little sense to defend against the last ballot measure as the plant was clearly going down on its' own.

          It all seemed irrational on the part of PGE…from THEIR stand point (rather than from just an anti-nuke perspective.)

          It seems like something else was going on there? Am I reading too much into it? Any idea?


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          • pinksailmatt pinksailmatt

            I would guess PGE didn't want to loose one of it's biggest money makers and then have to invest major money in some alternative ideas. Combination of greed and lazyness.


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          • flatsville

            Oh man. This is freakin' incredible. What a nightmare.

            Ratepayers getting sold out by their own CUB among other debacles.

            http://www.trojandown.org/history.htm


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          • Wyakin Wyakin

            Flatsville-Perceptive. Here's the underlying rationale for spending the vast sum:

            http://www.scribd.com/doc/52685670/67-00410-Pebble-Springs-Nuclear-Plant

            Plans for two nuclear plants at Pebble Springs, in eastern Oregon, were abandoned in 1982 due to cost escalation, declining demand, and the reality of the 1980 citizen referred ballot measure which passed as Measure 7.

            In addition to the contents cited above, while the likelihood of a federally approved waste repository remains low, the law includes a provision that requires voter approval for future nuclear projects in the state, something voters would never have approved then, and will not approve now.

            It was the concerted effort of many activists and organizations that has kept Oregon nuclear free. The value of citizen offered ballot initiatives as a direct legislative tool, while it does have some limitations and risks, should be considered. Peace.


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            • Wyakin Wyakin

              I recognize some timing differences between the 1982 plan abandonment and 1992, but I speculate that they had both continued hopes for future plants and a desire to continue operating the plant to recoup the enormous sum they spent on Trojan.


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              • flatsville

                Yep. That makes sense.

                Just be aware that ballot initiatives are often challenged at least once in court before they make it onto the ballot. I've been involved in three that had to be defended (non-nuke) before they ever got printed for election day. Constitutionality, signature certification and proper circulation handling is where this often falls apart for many groups in court challenges.

                Best to have an attorney on speed dial.


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  • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

    Looks like things are coming full circle.. :)

    It will all get much worse in the very near future for all of humanity if we continue to stay on this current Nuclear Energy path as a species.. :(


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    • andagi andagi

      Dear obewanspeaks,
      I believe depression, suicide attempts and suicides are also not being truthfully addressed. My heart aches. Lies!
      Thank you again ENENews for doing all you can to provide information. Readership is growing… hope for all who seek truth, answers and camaraderie.
      Aloha.


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      • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

        You would be correct and they are all growing in numbers worldwide as apathy takes hold and a helpless feeling of despair creeps slowly through our combined souls as the vail is slowly being lifted.

        This is a time of strength for those that see what needs to be done and corrected, and yes, truly a great exciting time to be alive. No way do I want to leave this show!

        We humans need not have any war ever again and/or pain or suffering if we only all begin to choose our paths wisely.

        There must be hope for a better future… :) We must spread this good news!

        Save all that you can my friend.. :)


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  • lickerface lickerface

    Public awareness is not at all a waste of resources. There are societies/groups with money and lobbying power amongst the people (some hiding) who, upon discovery about this contamination, have taken drastic measures to protect others. Recently, I've awakened a group with what I'd consider a fair amount of power by just speaking to them about information on enenews, agreenroad.blogspot.com, and showing them a Geiger counter.

    One thing which hasn't been brought up is the power of awareness itself. We have always been presented with misinformation movements, released by global/national/local media outlets. The more that people can see through the bullshit on mainstream news, the more easily perception can be eventually focused towards a goal. "Reefer Madness", an old-fashioned propaganda piece, is now made fun of, and now that green material is legal for recreation in Colorado.

    Someone brought up Alec Baldwin. Since viewing some of the "30 Rock" episodes after Fukushima, I'd grown to be disappointed in him as a person. In that series, he is a GE exec. I'd thrown him away in my mind as far as a potential elite figure to help shape public opinion and perception. Then I found from someone above that he's not pro-nuclear as I had suspected. I found an article on Google about him being against two nuke plants back in 2007. It's good to see him involved more now.

    I've seen that public awareness is very powerful, so I'm not stopping those…


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