Published: June 18th, 2012 at 9:29 pm ET
|
Fairewinds’ Gundersen on Capitol Forum: Fukushima Daiichi and the Nuclear Picture in the US and Internationally
Capitol Forum w/ Tom Ritter
June 10, 2012
At 13:45 in
Gundersen: I think people are beginning to think maybe we can never dismantle these plants, “Maybe we just fill them with concrete and walk away.”
[Radioactivity] ultimately does leech through the concrete.
[...]
How are we ever going to knock these plants down? Maybe it’s better to just entomb them and walk away.
Download the audio here
Published: June 18th, 2012 at 9:29 pm ET
|
I was makin' sure you weren't hyperventilatin g ...
sending...
So this is what a ten trillion dollar, man-made, eco-disaster looks like …
Thanks to J.P.Morgan's favorite child, General Electric's, utter hubris and disregard for everything good in life ("we bring good things to life" was just a cheap slogan,) Japan will soon die a horrible death. A local businessman once said: "Big business is callous; and the bigger the business, the more callous they are …" That is ringing true about now.
How is not everyone who still believes in nuclear power not complicit in this murder of a nation? How is not every media outlet not devoting headlines to this daily, not complicit in the destruction of Japan, and possibly the northern hemisphere?
Does anyone really believe the United States of Cancer is not a rogue nation, run by nuke-head narcissists bent on the destruction of nature as mere collateral damage to a nuclear obsessed fantasy world?
PEOPLE! Memo to Ban Ki-Moon: IT'S NOT "NEW" ANYMORE. IT'S OLD! IT SHOULD BE CALLED OLD-CLEAR.
/Rant off. Peace to the 'newsers.
Report Comment
Agree with your rant, don't turn it off totally.
Report Comment
What?
You are worried about nuke technology that was designed back when computers still used vacuum tubes and were larger than your house?
< / sarcasm off >
Report Comment
Entombing, dismantling, or is there something better? Does anyone know for sure what is the best way too kill this disaster, so that no one, sea life, the environment, and so on, is hurt anymore?
All I know is, this disaster has to end soon, time is clicking fast, and all Nuclear Power also has to end.
It's too dangerous and there is too much dangerous waste. For all the power it brings, it's not worth the results in the end.
Report Comment
The editors should have used a different headline. If you listen closely Mr. Gunderson is saying what he said months ago that entombing or burying in concrete is NOT the best solution for these reactors, certainly not at this time. Like Three Mile Island it will take several more years to get cleaned up. There is no better way as far as I can see than what is being done now. And since we are still going to have nuclear power with us for quite some time, we should gain as much knowledge as we can from this situation. That is so as to make any needed changes for safety to any current reactors and also to any future reactors which will be built. As for the waste many are now working on the dsign of reactors which are not only safe but which use up the remaining fuel in the present spent fuel bundles while producing less radiactive waste in the process. In other words using up not only the Uranium but also most of the fission byproducts which are the biggest problem now.
Report Comment
Hey Arnie … Don't you think we should really start calling them "Fool Pools?"
Feeling pretty silly about all that re-racking of the Fool Pools, about now?
Still pulling punches?
Nuclear energy is state-sanctioned child molestation … it's like having every kid have to have a sleepover at Jerry Sandusky's basement pad. And no kisses on the way out … or tickets to a college football game.
This is not an "industry." This is state-financed, corporate enabled genocide. How is it different from Hitler's "Final Solution?" How are we not all in the gas chamber, together?
How did we get here? Greed. How do we get out of here? Truth.
… in small doses … persistently … with loving hope for a future still possible, looking increasingly remote.
Truthfully, it's a little sickening to have to listen to a guy who midwifed this nuclear syndrome and who enabled the re-racking of the fool pools, who has suddenly seen God, and have to hear the old excuses for why we "had to have this nuclear (devil's illusion)" explain to us the finer points about how little we know about what we are doing at Fukuskama, or what we could even hope to have done …
A little more humility is in order … and a big fat MEA CULPA.
A.G.: "Science hasn't gone here …" NO SHIT SHERLOCK, and that is why we should never have gone here at all. All nuclear science is junk and should be euthanized, along with its practitioners. Get over it nuke-heads. Do…
Report Comment
+1
Report Comment
I share your frustration and outrage with the nuclear cabal. That said, Arnie Gundersen sacrificed a lot of money by becoming a whistle blower, endured threats to his family for telling the truth, and lost many friends. I believe that Gundersen should be forgiven past "sins" because he admits what most other insiders will not: that the nuke industry, and indeed humankind, is in way over their heads. Only by winning the hearts and minds of the many who still actively support the nuke biz can we hope for change.
Report Comment
We always suspected they didn't have a clue on how to control the runaway fuel and they are barely hanging steady with the spent fuel ponds. But they don't have the money or desire for the concrete tombs. And as Arnie mentioned… A cover will not last forever and they will need a bunch of them repeated every ten years or so. If they did muster the money and resources the tombs will look like a multilayer parking garage after a few layers. I guess they could design them like a pagoda.
But even if they try to make the effort.. by the time they build four tombs.. Japan will be a toxic dump from The Fallout Age. I can't see them containing any of the Units in less than 2 more years…a decade to do all four. And that doesn't solve the underground fissures leaking every minute to the Pacific Ocean.
The Japanese authorities feel like they are beaten by the disaster. I also think they are whipped. Bad news for the civilian victims in Japan.
Report Comment
my love…
Is like the ocean in death…
sweet warnings to embrace a fleeting memory…
Report Comment
why give up so easily? The Japanese aren't. They are still working hard to finish the cleanup and doing a fine job of it.
Report Comment
Fury is a nuclear apologist…or worse, revels in fact that we are stuck with nuclear energy or so he says. Watch what is said, an interesting mindset.
Report Comment
I am not apologizing for anything. The most primary reason for the Fukushima disaster was an accident of Nature. All energy sources have problems that had and have to be worked out before they are safe , and even then improvements are always being made. ANY form of energy, electricity, wind , solar, heat , wood fireplaces ; EVERYTHING. You have to start somewhere to get where you need to be. In todays world everyone uses electricity, even if it is pedal power on a stationary bike. How many people die of heart attacks from riding a bicycle. Quite a few. Compare that percentage wise to other forms of energy, especially if people HAD to use such a method for electricity. Then add in the hazards and pollution of lead-acid storage batteries. Who is going to pedal the bike? How many homes these days have 8 or more children as they used to?
Report Comment
No one dies of wind energy accidents. No one dies from solar energy accidents. Fukushima is killing the whole world, when it is added to the already large radiation burden the world has accumulated since 1940. There is no way to get rid of this radiation. There is no way to lessen the hole in the ozone caused by this radiation. If we have breathed in this radiation in the form of plutonium, there is no way we aren't going to die of bone cancer or lung cancer or a stroke or a heart attack.
Report Comment
Wrong. 30 years ago a very close friend of mine was electrocuted in a solar energy/wind energy accident. Anything that deals with construction or anything with people involved will have a chance for a fatal accident. And how many times has the wind blown down power lines where people got electrocuted? And what about the people in California and elsewhere complaining about the residual effects of having a power line within 600 feet of their homes??
Report Comment
@Fury: The single profound truth of your points not yet realized IMO is in your question: "Who is going to (provide the labor)? How many homes these days have 8 or more children as they used to?
There is one monstrous under-experienced problem immediately in line behind nuclear. IF we could effectively deal with insidious deadliness of nuclear (which we cannot) we'd quickly discover how deadly and toxic *and dependent!* is "fossil fuel" in our lives.
Even without nuclear we've been on a fast-track to toxify all life, waters, and soils.
Many ENEers may already have replaced "convenience gadgets" with labor in daily routines (manual can-openers? manual dish washing?). But when households go far enough identifying and stripping out "unnecessary" power-using gadgets – they find at least 2 things in my experience. Less gadget noise(pleasant, good news); and lost "choice-of-use minutes", (high-labor intense routines don't mesh with most people's work schedules, 'bad' news).
Hi-tech wind and solar solutions require rare elements (called rare for a reason), and considerable reliance on fossil fuel to drive mining, manufacture, installation.
The way I look at it – energy crisis/challenge was already upon us. But worst of all is nuclear because it's the least natural, the least "repairable". Stepping back from nuclear is imperative. But earth will continue dying if we don't address high-consumption lifestyles. That's comprehensive!
Report Comment
"Comprehensive" means everything we take for granted. Food production, food storage in summer/winter, travel – the whole concept of how economic systems work. I see no reason why we can't retain key benefits that come with energy. Electricity seems key, but intelligence is a must!
We've got to be honest about "externalized" costs. These are obvious with nuclear, and over-abundant with non-nuclear. We've got to take responsibility for harm done when households want "nifty stuff". Rice-cookers for example. Rice cookers? Even 20 yrs ago no one needed them!
Can old homes/bldgs be repaired (using lots of labor) instead of destroying habitat to harvest more raw bldg materials? The economy *depends* on us saying: "It's not financially feasible – lets tear down/replace."
The pattern we need to change is 100's years old!
Winter thermostats between 60-65, wear more clothes; central air usually unnecessary – room units where life/death matter. Earth replenished with food-producing trees/shrubs where*ever* possible, (backyards, city parks, boulevards) as food for human & all creatures. Fast-as-possible shift from petrol-chemical fertilizers and pesticides. Learn the earth-enhancing value of "weeds" as food, as medicines, as beauties that "mine subsoil, then decay to provide soil nutrients". Avoid plastics.
These practices IMO need to be done at the same time that we disengage from nuclear which – as I said – is top priority.
Report Comment
AG: “Maybe we just fill them with concrete and walk away.”
This is a disgraceful thing to stay. No amount of "filling with concrete" is going to stop the radioactive water leaching into the Pacific from below.
The problem has to be attacked by isolating the coriums from the environment by some means of sealing from below, and I don't think anyone knows how to do this yet, or has the will to try.
It is possible that the coriums might gell, which in turn might reduce the emissions somewhat, but they would still have to be made safe and removed.
Report Comment
i'm with you apostrophes, i was going to post similar and saw your true words – it's disgraceful – no one can walk away from this – the guilty parties should be there on their hands and knees if required, fixing this thing.
walking away means leaving it future people to deal with – this is abysmal – i can't verbalise how much I despise this petty, gutless thinking. They made their friggin bed, lie in it.
the world just keeps letting these criminals get away with this.. it's going to he%% and no one is doing a friggin thing – i've just spent 14 months on a sinking boat… we're fukued.
i don't know how to attack the problem apostrophes, i'll leave that to some engineers with the skills… but where are they ?
Report Comment
The three mile Island – catastrophe when nuclear fuel also melted – and somehow also removed.
In Tjernobyl the fuel core is still there under the sarcophague.
Is there or isnt there any possibilities to dig this out?
That should be good for all to know.
Report Comment
No need to. It's what is above it in the building and what is left of the reactor there that is the problem. And a very different type of reactor and accident both.
Report Comment
The biggest lie about nuclear power is the cost to dismantle a plant. It costs five to eight times what it costs to build a plant to dismantle it properly. This is one of the primary reasons that the NRC is so intent on extending the life of the plants in the US, possibly to eighty years, twice the time that they were designed to withstand structurally. They want to forestall the cost of dismantling the plants so that the companies owning them don't all go bankrupt in a wave of collapse. The myth that the tax on kwhr's will cover spent fuel storage and dismantling is nothing but a pipe dream, as the tax won't begin to to pay for dismantling, much less fuel storage. the owners of the plant will surely say that filling the plants with concrete will be adequate, since it is, to them, a viable option. The only problem, it won't last very long, but by then, they'll have dissolved the corporation and moved on.
Report Comment
dosdos: You mean that the nuclear industry is another "econimic bubble" about to burst? Are you utility investors listening? Nukes cost 5-8X construction costs just to dismantle them? Kicking the can down the road by continuing to operate old unsafe NPPs is just a guarantee for disaster. Which great American city will have to permanently evacuated? How many agricultural states will be ruined by the radiation?
The problem with Fuku is: If you dig the corium out, where do you put it? Better to use interlocking steel pilings and concrete to stop groundwater flow around the Coriums1-3, remove remains from SFP1-4, fill Buildings1-4 with concrete, encase Buildings 1-4 in a Sarcophagus, and see where we stand after 30 or 40 years. Forget about Japan. Japan is toast, their economy lies in ruins, and its people are doomed to a whole host of cancers. If TEPCO can't build the Sarcophagus, and if Japan won't, the international community will have to step in. Keep the pressure on, no new nukes. Shut them all down.
Report Comment
Okay … cue Charlie Forsberg, MIT Nuclear nitwit corporate shill, who showed up on TV after 3/11 and said all we need is a repository and we'll be fine with more and more nuclear …
About now, Professor Forsberg, you might want to train your considerable intellect in the direction of containing the Fuku disaster … or else all your shillyness regarding nukes looks slightly discordant …
Maybe there are some techies at GE who know what to do besides simply spreading the radiation all over Japan to protect Mother GE from future lawsuits …
The silence from the pro-nuke community is deafening …
Cue the shills … … … Anyone ….
Peace … no more silly nukes!
Report Comment
The destructive technology has been forced on us. And is being forced on us today. Something isn't right.
Report Comment
Nuclear terrorist:
those who build and deploy nuclear devices that kill large numbers of people.
Nuclear establishment:
those who build and deploy nuclear devices that kill large numbers of people.
Report Comment
Nuclear is the future of power for Russia. While countries such as Germany, Switzerland or Italy reassessed or dropped their nuclear programs after the events in Fukushima, Russia pushed ahead with its plan to boost the nuclear hold in its overall energy mix by 2030. While advancing its domestic nuclear sector, Russias' nuclear exports are a number one priority.
Today Russia has 26 nuclear plants and the number of nuclear plants is set to increase by another 26 in the future.
Another key strategy for Russia is the development of floating nuclear power stations. The first of those self-contained, low-capacity nuclear plants on vessels is the Akademik Lomonosov, which is currently under construction and will be launched in 2013.
If successful, the country plans to build at least seven of the stations by 2020 and tow them along the Russian Arctic Circle near cities, towns or industrial enterprises.
Each vessel will have two modified KLT-40 naval propulsion reactors that provide up 70MW of electricity, enough for a city with a population of 200,000 people. The stations are to have a lifespan of 40 years and will have a planned overhaul every 12 years. Already in 2004, a former federal inspectorate for nuclear and radiation safety, former environmental advisor to the Russian president, senior engineer of a nuclear power plant and a nuclear submarine construction engineer, warned that such stations are impossible to protect against terrorism and very vulnerable to…
Report Comment
…vulnerable to accidents.
Russia has implemented reactor designs in China and India and also took over the construction of a reactor for Iran at the Bushehr power plant, which was officially inaugurated in September 2011. More recently, the country signed collaboration agreements in the "peaceful" use of atomic energy with Argentina and France.
What Russia is planning is to build reactors, supply the fuel and then run those reactors in developing countries. It is trying to tie-up all the loose ends of the nuclear fuel enrichment, called the front-end cycle, and to reprocess the back-end cycle where plutonium can be stripped out for the possible re-use in nuclear reactors or for nuclear weapons.
Russia is seeing the opportunity to control energy in the world.
Report Comment
radiation monitoring, debris tracking and jet streams with mitigation protocols to share with loved ones
http://realitycheck.no-ip.info/forum/index.php/board,24.0.html
Fukushima fallout forecasts and other rad updates
http://realitycheck.no-ip.info/nnn.html
for those interested in alerting your reps
http://www.usa.gov/Contact/Elected.shtml
http://www.usembassy.gov/
still so much that can be done by me and you
Report Comment
Chemfood… my anti-virus program advises me not to go to the reality check site… what's up with that? Anyone else had that problem?
Report Comment
@Insight …. that's a really good point … my guess is Russia will eventually see the future is in true low carbon generation w/ wind , solar and hydro and they will recognize the folly of nuclear, along with the rest of the world … a ten trillion dollar, man-made eco-disaster will not go unnoticed even in the Kremlin … or in St. Petersburg either. My guess.
Peace.
Report Comment
John The Engineer has a way to fund the clean-up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0o7CVhsLOQ Occupy Wall St."Silver Bullet" Video Winner: Argentine Solution paying workers with small-denomination government bonds or currencies they can use to pay for Power, Taxes, Medical and Licenses. The Argentine Solution was used by 750 State and Municipal governments to issue their own tokens during the 1990s Russian banking system crash and 25,000 corporations too! Shell Gas Rubles, MacDonalds Burger Rubles, Ford Auto Rubles. I'll take any government bonds paid to those working in Japan to save my life, won't you? As many as it takes. Will you chip in to fund their labors to save our lives too? Helping the Occupy Wall St. Silver Bullet Argentine Solution go viral helps.
Report Comment
Instead of dismantle or fill them with concrete…Why not build around them having a glass top that people can stand on…Then you charge people to look down at these plants…There will be an extra charge for protective gear. Tour at own risk..(Sarc)
Report Comment
ARRGH!!! what happened with the editors who used to be so picky about spelling??? leech ??? [radioactivity] ultimately does leech through the concrete. Hmmm must be alive. LEEECHes don't eat concrete, they suck blood. Water leAches materials and compounds out of concrete. Could help radioactive materials migrate through concrete after a while, a long while. Now through cracks would be faster.
Report Comment