Gundersen in Japan: 1,000,000 additional cancers from Fukushima over next 20 years — Based on university studies after Three Mile Island (1.5 HOUR VIDEO)

Published: February 22nd, 2012 at 8:11 am ET
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Title: Arnie Gundersen at the Japan National Press Club
Source: Fairewinds Associates, Inc
Date: Feb 21, 2012

The Japan National Press Club hosts Arnie Gundersen. Over 80 journalists were present where questions were asked regarding the nuclear disaster at Fukushima Daiichi and the ongoing risks associated with the GE Mark 1 BWR nuclear reactors. 

Read the report here

At 54:55 in

  • Additional 1,000,000 cancers over next 20 years because of Fukushima
  • Based on Three Mile Island studies by Dr Steve Wing at U. of  N. Carolina
  • When I use his analysis I develop a number on the order of 1,000,000 cancers
  • A lot of analysis to indicate a 10% increase in lung cancer and others at TMI

Published: February 22nd, 2012 at 8:11 am ET
By
Email Article Email Article
309 comments

Related Posts

  1. Gundersen: Japan gov’t attempting to cover up health effects — A lot of deformities and cancers will be identified by citizens in next couple of years (AUDIO) August 14, 2012
  2. Lung cancers in Northern Japan will increase by 20-30% in 3-5 years as a result of Fukushima, according to estimate — Other cancers to follow September 6, 2011
  3. Gundersen: Health effects from Fukushima are being hidden — Japan not publishing data on stillbirths, spontaneous abortions, cancers, and more since 3/11 — Indicates they’re afraid to release it (VIDEO) November 15, 2013
  4. Tepco finds 920 millisieverts per hour in Fukushima Unit 1 torus room — Gundersen: “There are fuel fragments outside the containment” February 20, 2013
  5. Gundersen: Deformities, stillbirths not being reported after Fukushima — Officials withholding truth about health effects — Gov’t suppressing studies on deformed animals (AUDIO) October 3, 2013

309 comments to Gundersen in Japan: 1,000,000 additional cancers from Fukushima over next 20 years — Based on university studies after Three Mile Island (1.5 HOUR VIDEO)

  • PoorDaddy PoorDaddy

    Kinda funny.

    We get all heated up about whether Arnie is a hero or a dick, whether bleep is a prima donna or a mensa genius, if the "off topic police" are right or wrong, whether enenews is an effective learning tool or just an anti nuke support group, and on and on. Even or-well got his ass chewed the other day, and I always thought his posts only brung joy fer christ sake!

    Bottom line….
    we have all been dealing with the knowledge that Fuku has been spewing slow death for a year, and will continue to do so and 95% of those around us think we're fucking crazy…. Now that creates alot of stress,so if you want nothing but feel good shit, go hang out at FaceBook.

    I appreciate just about everything each one of us brings to the table, whether it's over my head (and thats alot of the time), or even if it's something I disagree with and just don't like. Sometimes the things we don't want to hear are the stuff we NEED to hear the most.
    Keep on postin, y'all!


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    • StillJill StillJill

      Yeah,…I guess it is funny,….seen from a detached point of view,…which I NEED right now!

      Thanks PoorDaddy,…….I kinda feel like you threw a bucket of cold water on me,….I needed that too!

      Off to defrag in the sauna!


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    • HoTaters

      i took a couple of days off to take care of personal business. Sounds like it might have been good to be away and miss the stuff flying around for the last couple of days! Hey, you guys need to behave when I'm not around! Shame on you!


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      • StillJill StillJill

        No kidding HoTaters! (I'm still hung-over!) Think I took a stray left jab the other night,….'friendly fire', sorta. Gave myself a stye in the eye. I look as bad as I feel too!

        Glad you were above the frey my friend! :-)


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  • StillJill StillJill

    I guess Maggie,….looks over his material.


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  • hbjon hbjon

    IMHO. Arnie has been given the chair of Grand Pooba of PR for the nuke industry for many reasons. One, he has been in the ear of the IAEA and the NRC about NPP safety improvements. Two, he has gained the respect of the powers that be in the industry. Three, he speaks well in public. Four, he makes meaningful suggestions. And five, he doesn't seem to cause panic among the sheeple. We here prolly do enough of that to make up for his shortcomings in that respect. You better believe that he holds is hand close to the vest. He has to.


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  • bleep_hits_blades

    Here is one grant that Fairewinds received, a very small one that sounds like it could not be the one Maggie was talking about.

    http://www.capecodfoundation.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=0224

    NOTE: It is mentioned below that Friends of Fairewinds receives some 'state aid.'

    The Falmouth Fund Awards 2011 Grants

    The Friends of Fairwinds (in partnership with Falmouth Housing Corporation) – $2,000 to support the operation of the Friends of Fairwinds by providing funds to reduce the mortgage on their recently purchased building. This new building will stabilize the Fairwinds program by providing them with space to operate in and rental income from a tenant to cover the costs of the building. This will allow Fairwinds to provide consistent services when state aid is frozen or cut.

    Welcome to The Cape Cod Foundation :: A Community Foundation Cape Cod Foundation
    259 Willow Street
    Yarmouthport, MA 02675
    1-800-947-2322 · 508-790-3040
    Thursday – February 23rd, 2012

    Falmouth Senior Center

    With no computer network, the Falmouth Senior Center was unable to fully serve seniors on critical matters, such as applying for Medicare. A $3,000 grant from The Falmouth Fund has changed that. For more on the fund, click here. (Above: Kathy Barrett, Fund Chair Eileen Miskell, and Barbara Brown)
    To Donate: Your donation is important to us. To make a donation with a credit card (to a specific fund or the general fund), .


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  • bleep_hits_blades

    May not be the same. I did not notice that.

    Fairewinds does not always reply to emails. I wish we could just ask them the source of this grant. And if Arnie is still pro-nucler power, just in favor of reforms.


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  • James2

    I think it is hilarious that it is the pro nukes here; the ones that can't see any fires and Fukushima; the ones that claim cold shutdown is true; that everything is under control.

    Those are the same folks that are defending Arnie's honor to the death on this one.

    They write response after response trying to bury my posts – wonder why?

    Well I know why – and it just reinforces that I'm exactly right when I say I think Arnie is now a paid nuke industry shill

    I also think he's a liar and WILLING TO TRADE LIVES FOR MONEY IN HIS POCKET – which is exactly the scumbag work they all do here.

    They write 15 posts in a row trying to say that he didn't say what he said in the video – watch it yourself – he says the workers "saved Japan and Saved the World – past tense. No muddling words now.

    I think Arnie has ghosts in the back seat of his new Lexus.


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    • Kevin Kevin

      Get over yourself James

      You always castigate people who agree with you?

      I said you were right to come away with the impression you did.

      But I also said, others were accurate to in not feeling the same way.

      That is how Arnie works. It is why I went into great detail. Trying ot underscore precisely this point.

      I dont care to bury your posts. Rage on brother.

      I just said its not every effective.


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    • dharmasyd dharmasyd

      James2. Admit it. I have told you I see the fires. Admit it, I have said the tepco cams are clown media. Admit it that I said that since the mid January nuclear firestorm holocosts all the tepco cams are disney on steroids. So I don't fit your box of who supports Arnie.

      I support Arnie. I see him as doing what he can from within the box. He is an insider. As an insider he can 'try' to speak truth to power; that means that he has to also be careful. How far do you think you would get trying to say what you say to the insider clique.

      But it is the insider power clique which must be influenced. I think Arnie is trying to do that. Unlike you, James2, he has access to their ears. I understand why he is careful. I wish you could understand that also and give him a little slack.

      The world needs both of you (all of us) to express our understanding in myriad ways to try to change the suicidal direction of this planet.


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      • James2

        I don't give a s&^t about "nuclear insiders" – they've been lying for years and they will continue to – they will be removed. Not illegally, because I don't stoop to their level of dirty tricks, but their own actions will cause their demise.

        And they are not who Arnie was talking to in this video. He was talking to Japanese reporters. Who will in turn right stories about Arnie for the General Population.

        BTW – I know exactly who the shills are – or at least who the shill ID's are. They too, are ignorantly predictable – time and again I set them up and they jump at the cheese so hard they nearly crash together in a big pile.


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        • dharmasyd dharmasyd

          You don't agree with me. That's okay. I just think it would be helpful if you could see that there are more ways to express one's opinions than running around shouting, "You assholes are wrong. I'm right." Somehow, I just see that as a big turnoff to most everyone. I know we do not have much time to turn this ELE around, but I can't see that alienating others is the way to change the disastrous death direction we are on. I do give a shit what everyone thinks, the true believer insiders like the NRC, and the non-believing insiders like Arnie. Either we have to murder all the pro nuke insiders, or we have to attempt to persuade them. Nothing worthwhile happens overnight. Do you see any other way than the 2 I have suggested? Murder or Persuasion?


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          • James2

            Yes I do see another way.

            I don't commit crimes. Persuasion is ineffective with those who only see money as their motivator.

            So you take the money and power away. You put them in prison for their crimes. You expose their lies to the public – which deals swift and sure justice.

            Actually you need only let them expose their own lies – and in this instance that is not difficult at all. They do no realize they are already finished, but they are. The die is cast. I'm not needed to drive it. They are driving it just fine without any input from me. The downfall will be soon and swift.

            Enron is the perfect example – lies upon lies – fabulously rich and powerful men came down in just a few weeks – even their bought and paid for politicians couldn't save them.

            And they went to prison, except for Kenny Boy, who opted to off himself rather than face the humiliation.


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        • dharmasyd dharmasyd

          @ James2… I didn't put @James2 at the top of trhe post. so, please go to the post above this at 2:14 AM for my response. I don't want to anger you, but we don't agree. So please take a deep, alming breath, then read.

          I believe our evolution beyond nuclear ELE annihilation depends upon our being able to respect each other and dialogue about our differences, at least the 99% who aren't psychopaths. And Arnie is not a psychopath. Perhaps he is mistaken, but I believe he is trying to do right.


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    • Anthony Anthony

      Wow that is just disrespectful on too many levels. I'm going to agree to disagree with you on this one because I do value your other inputs.


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  • there are better pins for anti-nuke-hate


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  • NoNukes NoNukes

    JoyB and Kevin,

    I was reading your posts and responded up the thread for whatever it is worth.

    I think the issue is not Arnie influencing the NRC, but effectively influencing the rest of us. One friend did watch Arnie's videos and conclude that Fukushima was pretty much over, history.


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    • Kevin Kevin

      I will have a look at the other post you mention.

      I have made countless comments on Arnie.

      And yes what you say is valid.

      Arnie is particular adept what you explain. Which is why I coined him uncle arnie.

      That said, he also does so in such away that astute observers with some understanding of the issues can take away tips to other conclusions,

      This is precisely why Arnie is "the man."

      Its a tight rope and he walks it fine. And after a lifetime in the industry, I am sure he is not worried about the coming "crash."


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  • StillJill StillJill

    "Over-History",..as in ALL DONE? (Cleaned up and on to other things,….)

    Or, "Over-history",…gone beyond repair?

    I can't tell from your post????


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    • NoNukes NoNukes

      StillJill, is that question for me?

      I have a friend who is an acupuncturist, eats organic, etc., yet does not much want to hear about Fukushima. I carefully added a bit here and there, slowly. She was starting to realize the implications, and checked out Gundersen's video, I think that it was the "cold pancake" one, and concluded that Fukushima was "ALL DONE," simply a sad event that is now history, that I was wildly overstating things. She is not interested anymore.

      For people who don't want to hear the truth (99%?), Gundersen does give them an easy way out!


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      • NoNukes, I didn't see that video (mentioned elsewhere). Do you know if Gundersen has discussed the fact that these cores melted through the vessels and we now KNOW at least one (unit 2, we saw the endoscopy) through the containment. And we KNOW because even TEPCO admits that all the containments at Fuku Daiichi 1, 2 and 3 plus at least one at Daiini are breached. Has he talked about this?


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        • James2

          Joy, I know you told me you thought Arnie was just being stubborn before, but this is more.

          I'm feeling pretty strongly he's being paid to say these things

          He simply cannot go in front of a Japanese news reporters and indicate to them it is contained – when he knows full well the Japanese government is trying to relocate people back into the contamination zone. They will parade his speech everywhere and proclaim the great and powerful nuke whistleblower says it's ok , so it's ok.

          Well he can do it, many others have too. but he cannot purport to be one of the good guys and then preach for the devil.

          I for one will not stand for it.


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          • lam335 lam335

            Your brand of suspicion can work in more than one direction.

            Gundersen frequently makes videos publicizing the corrupt relationship between the NRC and the nuke industry and revealing their lack of a proper safety culture. He has also been informing people about Fukushima-related dangers not reported on by the major media, such as hot particles and the still very precarious condition of SFP #4. He is bringing to the attention of the broader public a lot of things that are quite embarrassing to the nuke industry .

            Given that reality, how can we be sure that YOU are not a paid shill employed by the industry to discredit this influential guy in the eyes of the rest of the anti-nuke movement?

            Seriously, this game of pointing the finger of suspicion at people can run in circles. We have no reason to trust you any more than you trust Arnie.

            This is the dynamic that always leads revolutionaries to turn on one another and ultimately undermine their own cause.


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            • BreadAndButter BreadAndButter

              Iam335, agreed. This whole "blame game" is beyond boring by now.


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            • James2

              You want to know how you can tell I'm not a shill?

              Easy – check if I play by the shill operating manual:

              1. Have some cutesy, vaguely anti nuclear name. Change the name whenever somebody catches you.

              2. Obfuscate and lie – the more the better

              3. When something important happens, or someone has a damaging observation to the nuke agenda – paper that thread with any information possible to bury it.

              4. Have an IQ commensurate with the lowest bidder contract you're working under.

              5. See nothing, hear nothing, add nothing to the conversation but misinformation

              6. Promote every conspiracy theory you can – relevant or not. .

              7. Have no compassion whatsoever for the people who are affected by the tragedy – they are pawns to be trampled over to pick up your paycheck. Ignore them, they aren't really real. They aren't really suffering – you want yours -now! you deserve it.

              I'm sure there are others. If you think I fit any of those, then you can assume I'm a nuke industry shill.


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            • Anthony Anthony

              It is rather grandiose for any of us posters to be so condescending and pompous by contrasting who has done more or better between any of ourselves versus Arnie Gundersen.

              To place ghosts in the backseat of his car is a despicable statement when Mr Gundersen will probably go down as the most effective problem solver of REAL NUCLEAR ISSUES in Nuclear History.

              I don't think it speaks at all for the local consensus to support slitting the throat of the ONLY voice who is continually getting a truer message out to the world than anyone else has or is doing.

              Leave my hero alone thanks.


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              • James2

                Anthony – you should tell your hero to tell the truth, and he would be my hero too.

                He had that opportunity – he chose a different path – don't be upset with me for calling it out.


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              • ageezerofgiza

                I'm with James2 on this. Gunderson deliberately lied about mox.


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              • Kevin Kevin

                Yeah this video did it for me.

                I had commented repeatedly on Arnie, called him out on stark contrasts, outlined in detail concerns I had with him, explained how it is very possible he is just another "Limited Hangout".

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_hangout

                I Contacted him to only receive a from letter in return, I went to bat for him despite my reservations and still held out hope that he would use his position in this whole sordid affair to deliver some body blows. He has said stuff that gave me confidence this could be the case, he expressed surprise about the industry surviving Chernobyl, I could go on and on about the things he did and said that inspired me and gave me hope that he had what it takes and would eventually use it.

                But that has come to an end now. This opportunity in Japan was a great venue and the perfect time to deliver. Nearing the anniversary of this thing and having established himself the way he has, it was the moment where he could have marked the turning point. He could of knocked it of the park.

                But instead he delivered what amounts to talking points. Rehashed old news, waged his finger at the NRC and proceeded to deflect, deter, diminsh and downplay (and that is just a few of the D words).

                Anthony states he is the ONLY voice getting the TRUEST information out to the world. And quite frankly he is right. Which says alot about how bad things are. The lone voice, speaking those "Truths" leaves me hollow and hopeless.

                There are others, Caldicott and Busby. But the mainstream dont give them a soundbite. ITs an expression of how thoroughly they exercise full spectrum dominance. And a testamount to how clearly and thoroughly fucked we are.

                Well Anthony, all I can say is good luck, with heros like that its getting harder and harder to tell who the villians are.


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      • Something more in Caldicott's line…

        Thyroid testing in children delayed due to worries that monitoring would add anxiety -
        http://enformable.com/2012/02/thyroid-testing-in-children-delayed-after-fukushima-due-to-worries-that-monitoring-would-add-anxiety-to-community/

        First they tell us that anxiety can cause thyroid problems (since of course it can't be radioactive iodine exposure), then they tell us they can't test for thyroid problems from radioactive iodine exposure because it'll cause anxiety. Man, it must be nice to have carte blanche to simply make up reality as you go along, and have everybody in the world nod as if it makes sense or something. Oy.


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      • StillJill StillJill

        Thank you, Yes, sorry Nonukes, the question was for you, and you answered it completely.

        That is what I feared you were saying.

        I agree, Arnie's messages do not light a fire.


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  • NoNukes NoNukes

    Hi JoyB,

    Thanks for your responses and insight. I believe this is the link to the video, some of the transcript is there, and maybe a link to more? If I find a full transcript, I will show you a link.
    http://enenews.com/gundersen-could-fukushima-have-a-china-syndrome-no-one-can-get-within-100-feet-of-bottom-of-reactors-video/comment-page-1#comments

    I have to run now, but from what I remember, Gundersen talked about the fuel melting through tiny holes, and now laying flat like a cold pancake. No mention of melt-outs, just the popular breakfast food.

    Mikey focused on this:
    mikey
    December 14, 2011 at 11:20 pm · Reply
    PER ARNIE- Now remember the nuclear reaction has stopped [at Fukushima]
    We are down to less than 1% of the nuclear heat
    So now we have got a blob [that is] now lying flat on the floor underneath the nuclear reactor……..

    Since Gundersen had been something of a hero at Enenews because of his discussions of "hot particles," etc., the cold pancake image, along with the use of the past tense, and reference to a single reactor, etc. made quite an impact, this was Bobby1's response:

    Bobby1
    December 14, 2011 at 3:08 pm · Reply

    Good friend Arnie re-criticalities deny he does.
    Iodine since May sees he does not.
    To the dark side gone over he has.
    The Jedi on their own now they are.


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    • Kevin Kevin

      Interesting post No nukes.

      I have finished listenting to the whole of Arnies Press Conference.

      It was very interesting, the translation aspect really brings a different dynamic to such occassions.

      Arnie was in fine form.

      I too was taken with the points you raise no nukes. The constant referal to Daichi like it was one reactor was mind boggling. The inference was consistant and even went as far as to suggest they are all at the same stage. The infamous cold pancake corium from "some" of the fuel in the reactor, again in the singular dominated.

      The consistent referal to TMI also worked to calm the message as if he had been through it all before and while Daichi is "10x more complicated" and will cost more than the two billion it cost to remove the fuel from the reactor at TMI, its steady she goes for the next thirty years at a cost of a quarter trillion.

      He did say that before we approve new reactor builds we have to raise the bar without mentioning the recent approval in the US. However he did lay out where the bar should be moved and actually achieving that would be a near impossibility. A potential stake through the heart of nuclear power, but of course it will never come to be.

      He also closed by saying that Japan has the opportunity to lead the world with new technology versus follow the world in relying on old technology, which left me feeling less miserable, however he did not say "other than nuclear." And he did work hard to instill the belief that the problem is primarly BWR Mark 1 forty year old stuff and all the newer stuff is more awesomer.

      In the end it did little to disuade my now long lasting apprehension with Arnie, and while James2 is bombastic to the point of self defeat, he is, I believe accurate that Arnie is in fact in the bossom of the industry. It pains me to come to this full realization but the evidence is just piling too high in favour of his bias toward ensuring the message falls on the side of the nuclear…


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      • NoNukes NoNukes

        Wow, Kevin! Are you American? I doubt it. The ability to do what you just did is rare in the culture in which I live. My Canadian husband even has a hard time with it. I am so impressed!


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        • NoNukes NoNukes

          Kevin, I just realized that might have sounded like I was trying to pick you up, replace my husband, lol! I promise that you can throw a cold pancake at me if you ever feel that you need too!


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          • Kevin Kevin

            LOL

            You are very insightful.

            I am Canadian.

            We like our pancakes cold, its the only way they keep in the igloos we live in!

            :)

            That said, its not too impressive really as I have repeatedly cast doubt on Arnies role on these pages for months now. In fact I have never done much else.

            I have gone to bat for him when he did do a good service and will do so again. However this was the last of many straws for me. Arnie is exceptional at what he does, but what he does is not all that exceptional.

            Cheers

            No need to leave your husband, if he is Canadian, you probably got a good catch!

            lol


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    • Thanks for the link, NN. I might be able to claim the bandwidth to view it after the college kids go back to school next week. Plus, have a son and two younger grands coming tomorrow. Visiting Season begins, like spring, early this year. And the GrandStead is where everybody ends up. Handy, since that means we don't have to go on long trips – too much livestock to allow for that anyhow. But it's hell on bandwidth.

      I recall some articles about those supposedly "tiny holes" early on, but not from Gundersen (wasn't paying that much attention to him, was focusing on what the damned nukes were claiming). Made me laugh, in an ironic sort of way. 1. Those holes ain't "tiny," 2. They riddle the entire bottom of the core (essentially making it into a grate once the tubes are sheared), 3. Since it's just a grate when the tubes are sheared – and melted fuel shears 'em right off – it presents an unimpeded non-bottom of the vessel for the entire mess to plop right on out. This whole scenario was a gross misdirection, sleight of mind. Deliberate confusion between the design of BWRs like Fukushima's, and PWRs like TMI.

      PWRs have a few small instrument tubes through the bottom, but the control rods enter from above the core rather than underneath it. TMI-2's melted fuel sheared the tubes off, but the holes were too small to let the corium through. THIS is where the misdirection comes from. Arnie should know better, but that was the theme of the day for a few weeks. Maybe he didn't think too hard about it.


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      • An entire core's worth of corium falling through the bottom of the vessel to the drywall floor (which isn't flat, too much equipment in there) is that it's going to seek its level just as all liquids do. If Arnie or anybody else can describe a pool of water in the drywall as looking anything remotely like a pancake, they eat some darned weird pancakes. It's going to be a serious mess as the rod drives and associated pedestals and tubes, gears, glass, pipes, etc. crumble into it to make big blobs as they slowly melt into the mass. Meanwhile the corium is actively melting itself into the concrete, and the sheer tonnage of it makes it hot enough to do that with relative ease.

        On its way toward the basements and associated piping (think Chernobyl, but with more corium), it might encounter water. Especially – as happened in unit 2 – if it melts its way right on into the torus before it reaches basement. A BWR torus has lots and lots of water in it. Corium that hits water is going to flash that water to steam and gases – hydrogen, oxygen – and those are going to explode. The result are a lot of various sized, irregularly shaped "rocks" with the consistency of pumice. Like what happens when lava hits water.

        It took a mere 16 hours for each of those water-deprived reactor cores to melt completely down to the vessel bottom and all those to-be-sheared tubes. ~4 hours later the corium would be in the drywall. 4 hours later the first of the melted reactors exploded sky high. That's just right according to the described scenario. It took longer for #2 and #3, because their dynamics were a bit different. Unit 2's corium went straight for the torus, its explosion was at and below ground level. Unit 3 "went nuclear" as soon as they began pumping seawater into the hole. So there's questions about where and in what state the corium flows are right now.


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      • Unit 1's flows are likely in and under the basements, following fissures in the rock, and headed for the cliff. Unit 2's may still have some mass still in the drywall, the rest as pumice-boulders in and around the torus (not massed enough at this point to actively keep melting through). Unit 3 – who the heck knows if there's anything still in there at all? Could be all the way to Tokyo by now…

        Notice that when I iterate this scenario – a pretty good guess, but certainly not 'authoritative – I'm drawing on my knowledge of the plants, the systems, and the REPORTED events in that first week. Which is when the die was cast for all these plants. My scenario doesn't resemble much of anything the "experts" have been saying for all these many months. And if I were to put them out there at a press conference (hahaha) I'd be immediately dismissed and nobody would pay me any mind forever after. Really.

        Fact of the matter is we don't have any clear, factual pictures of the conditions, the original sequences of events, or the current corium whereabouts. NOBODY KNOWS for sure, not even TEPCO. Nobody will know for 50-100 years, if they know then (and they probably won't). Or when Unit 2's flows reach the sea. Don't think they'll be able to hide that, though they'd try. I think (my opinion) that it's Unit 1's corium that presents the greatest long term threat beyond the spent fuel pools. And I believe the spent fuel pools present a much greater danger to life and limb than any of the corium flows at this point in time.

        My opinions and analysis, for whatever they're worth. Take or leave, I don't care. I'm in an even better position than Arnie because I don't have to walk any 'credibility' tightropes with the mainstream press or the dad-blamed nuclear mafia. er… industry. James may still think I'm a shill because I don't see gamma radiation from 10 miles away on bad video feeds – or even close up at the dentist's office. Last I checked gamma…


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        • Kevin Kevin

          Excellent stuff Joy B,

          You put your finger on a great many things here that are at the heart of the issue.

          You spell out how the "die was cast" in those beginning days and weeks and clearly explain how things would have logically proceeded. You then go on to point exactly how it contrasts the official story and how this is precisely the reason you would be dismissed by authors of the official narrative, other wise known as the international mainstream media and its echo chamber.

          Arnie celebrates the brave workers who contained the disaster during this time, in keeping with the official narrative and in so doing immediately legitamizes the official account and deflects any potential review of the narrative whereby insuring the truth of the matter is not told or even explored but rather re-inforces the false narrative that begins at that crucial time.

          He does precisely this again in his last video where he avoids the impacts of the EQ and starts his analysis after the fact and at the time of the Tsunami.At which point he launches a detailed narrative of an alternate theory compeletely void of the known facts that occurred at the onset of the EQ. Its a classic issues managment strategy and you clearly debunk it here.

          Thanks for this post.
          \


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      • Last I checked gamma radiation still doesn't make up any part of the little sliver of EM that we call "visible" – meaning we'd be able to see it. Maybe he's an evolutionary forerunner. I'm not, and I won't be getting any new genes during what's left of my lifetime. I see dizzying blurs, dancing lights, moving lights at triple-speed and occasionally suited workers hanging out in areas where if these fires were actually burning they'd be toast in seconds.

        …but I honestly don't care. Arnie's trying to impress people. I am not.


        Report comment

  • Craig-123

    I suggest listening to that whole Japanese Press Club video for yourself –before venturing opinions about where Arnie Gundersen is at.

    Smoothly, trenchantly, authoritatively and diplomatically –Arnie stuck his neck out and laid the following points on the table –with a thud:

    * Not only is the era of nuclear power plants over, the whole concept of the central power plants is obsolete.

    * Asked how many NPPs would be appropriate for Japan, Arnie's answer amounted to a resounding ZERO, saying that Japan can't build a NPP that's both profitable and safe (enough to survive a "1000 year" earthquake event), and that with Japan's geology and population density, there's no place to store nuclear wastes for "250,000 years".

    * When asked about the new "AP-1000" design, Arnie pointed out that with its huge tank containing millions of gallons of water suspended high above the containment/reactor, there were few geologically safe places even in the USA to locate it –and no place at all in Japan.

    * He urged that Japan should now take the initiative and get out in front with non-centralized co-generation and smart grids.

    * Arnie placed the cleanup costs for the Fukushima disaster at 250 billion dollars, adding that it's also going to cost Japan 1,000,000 excess deaths.

    * He based that on TMI, saying that the NRC and the nuke industry are simply wrong about there having been no death toll from the Reactor-2 TMI event –and he quoted a recent revisionist study.

    * Over and again, Arnie has plainly stated that the GE Mark-1 design was defective, remains defective, that GE has known it all along and he explained why. How can anyone say that amounts to playing ball with TPTB? Can you imagine the courage it takes to say something like that (even if you're certain of your documentation) –when speaking from a position of consequence (such that multi-billion dollar lawsuits might result)?

    Craig


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    • NoNukes NoNukes

      Craig-123,

      If you go to Japan and talk as if what is happening now isn't happening, that there aren't re-criticalities causing harm not just for the generations that are alive now, but for ALL the following generations, producing radiation that causes damage to DNA that will be always be damaged…how is that not deeply wrong?

      If you are going to pretend that reality is not reality, then does the critique of the GE Mark-1 design count for much?


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    • Kevin Kevin

      Craig,

      I appreciate your effort here, but, well lets go through point by point shall we?

      1)Not only is the era of nuclear power plants over, the whole concept of the central power plants is obsolete.

      This is absolutely TRUE, however I do not recall Arnie saying it. Could you please point to the time in the video? I watched it twice and did not see or hear that comment.

      2)Asked how many NPPs would be appropriate for Japan, Arnie's answer amounted to a resounding ZERO, saying that Japan can't build a NPP that's both profitable and safe (enough to survive a "1000 year" earthquake event), and that with Japan's geology and population density, there's no place to store nuclear wastes for "250,000 years".

      I mentioned this in my comments, but again what you say, Arnie did not! He did say that before we build another NPP we should raise the bar from 100 year events to 1000 year events, which in my opinion would make them impossible, and that is exactly what I said in my comments, but again Arnie did not. He simply said that change should happen. It has not happened, US just approved its first build in thirty years and he said nothing, a point I have made twice.

      3)When asked about the new "AP-1000" design, Arnie pointed out that with its huge tank containing millions of gallons of water suspended high above the containment/reactor, there were few geologically safe places even in the USA to locate it –and no place at all in Japan.

      Right so, do you think that is going to gey any ink? Or resonate with anyone? haha Arnie did go out of way to say the problem is really about old NPP and the new ones do not suffer under the same risk paradigm

      4) He urged that Japan should now take the initiative and get out in front with non-centralized co-generation and smart grids.

      This is true! I agree, non centralized locally owned and operated, absolutely, however I dont remember him saying this, again please point to the time in the video

      cont


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      • Kevin Kevin

        5) Arnie placed the cleanup costs for the Fukushima disaster at 250 billion dollars, adding that it's also going to cost Japan 1,000,000 excess deaths.

        Yes he did say this. And that is nothing new and has been reported before. The million deaths is on the high side of what has been reported but many are questioning that, as it based on TMI data and obviously there is no comparison.

        6) He based that on TMI, saying that the NRC and the nuke industry are simply wrong about there having been no death toll from the Reactor-2 TMI event –and he quoted a recent revisionist study.

        Wow, that oughta really ummm….. what was that again? If I understand you, Arnie said that he does not agree with the no death toll claim. Well no shit sherlock. I am sure glad we got the nuclear engineer to fly to Japan and straighten that one out.

        7) Over and again, Arnie has plainly stated that the GE Mark-1 design was defective, remains defective, that GE has known it all along and he explained why. How can anyone say that amounts to playing ball with TPTB? Can you imagine the courage it takes to say something like that (even if you're certain of your documentation) –when speaking from a position of consequence (such that multi-billion dollar lawsuits might result)?

        Arnie has madea career out of saying this for a very, very long time now. Ever since he worked on them in the 70s and found out there shortcomings. And yes he has repeated adnausem while extolling the virtues of the new technology. Which only serves the industry. Oh dear I am sure they are gonna slap him hard for that and I bet that is exactly what Japan needed to hear.

        I hate to sound dismissive. I am not familiar with you and do not recall any of your prior posts. This one however is very thin gruel indeed.

        This aws the single best opportunity to get wide exposure on real issues. Issues we know Arnie is aware of. That did not happen. No major message was sent. It was a dont worry be happy event.


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        • many moons

          Arnie is al we have and we are lucky to have him. I believe he has a lot of courage to afront these thugs in the nuclear industry…(he's probably been threaten with more than lawsuits). I believe he is advocating the best he can and perhaps he realizes how things need to be when discussing this in Japan….I don't think he is beinging paid off as much as pressured


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          • Heck, MM, I don't see that it's Arnie's job to go all hysterical on "Everybody's Gonna DIE!!!" after being invited to Japan and getting a press conference to answer some questions. He's got a new book, I hear. Maybe he'll sell some.

            And by the way, if Arnie did happen to go all hysterical on "Everybody's Gonna DIE!!!" he'd be immediately dismissed as irrelevant because he is NOT a health physicist or an epidemiologist. I'm a little amazed at the personal ownership of this man – his life, his voice – that some here want to claim. I don't see any reason Arnie needs to be anything but Arnie. He's never going to make everybody happy no matter what he says or does. I'd guess he's okay with that. Because he's still out there doing what he can. If he really thought he had to meet everybody's expectations and make everybody happy all the time, no one would ever have heard of him because he'd keep his mouth shut and just stay home.


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            • Kevin Kevin

              Hi JoyB.

              While that sounds perfectly legitimate, and it is difficult to defend against the action of working to dominate the will and actions of another, I am not entirely sure if its relevant. Clearly no one here is telling Arnie what to do, he has no obligation to satisfy anyone or any special interest. He has structured an independent agency precisely for that reason.

              However, if you look at Arnies last video he produced, where he outlines the details of the cap lifting in the instance of reactor one. He, as I pointed out in in great detail, presents contrary information to the facts. But that is not exactly the point I am making here because I have already made my case on that and you read and commented. The reason I refer to it here is because at the end of that video he clumsily closes with the last line " I will keep you informed" and therein lies the rub.

              When someone claims the mantle of independent agent and works hard to frame himself as the credentialed professional working to keep us informed, then subsequently conducts an indepth misinformation campaign designed to favour the industry and at cost to the victims of that industry he no longer has the credibility you claim and in so doing he opens himself up to criticism you are seeing expressed here. All of which is totally proper, necessary and expected. None of which is a violation of his dependence or an expression of "ownership" of his voice.

              You play with fire you get burned.

              You claim to be an unbiased, independent source of information and proceed to misinform you get called out.

              He takes this risk on his own volition. He has to be responsible for his own approach.

              Screaming blue murder at him and hurling false accusations is one thing, but simply pointing out, as i and others have, the valid contradictions and examples of them is entirely another. All of which is fair game.

              Arnie says he is independent, he is not. Arnie claims to inform, and proceeds to misinform.


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              • Well, it seems quite obvious that he's not fooling you (or anybody else here) if misinformation is indeed his game. And it's not just that he's a semi-retired nuclear engineer who still gets to opine on these things occasionally.

                I'll just say that I've only know 'of' him since 1995 or so. Since 2009 we've met many more regionally 'important' anti-nukes, most of whom have managed to ask me (with sideways glances) if I know him and what I think of him. I never met the guy. Have met Wing, he has suffered actual harm from his involvement – which was thoroughly on the up and up – and still has a job only because he's tenured. I can't tell if sideways glances indicate suspicion or not. Refuse to do any mind-reading on that level, but body-language suggests so.

                I learned more than 32 years ago that if you actually know anything and decide to take on the industry, you're on your own. Not even the Biggest Name uber-popular anti-nukes (who make good livings at it) will give you the time of day if it might possibly cost them a shred of 'credibility'. That once shocked me, but I learned to live with it and am no longer surprised by much of anything on that level.

                Hell, I went to the FBI for cause to fight federal subpoena in Caldicott, et al.'s long-planned mega-buck lawsuit in '95 because it was a disruption to my life and I didn't owe them sh*t. We were only subpoenaed in case Arnie's fanciful containment breach didn't work – and of course it never would have because that's not what happened. He was the 'star' witness, we were just Plan B. We have our own lives for long since, thanks, having nothing whatsoever to do anymore with nasty nukes or their professional opposition.

                Fukushima has deserved our attention. But we don't expect to convert anybody (or I wouldn't be here, would I?). People will accept or not as they are able. Most know not to lob utter crap at me though, I'll call 'em on it. James does too. I just think he's too sure…


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                • Kevin Kevin

                  Well JoyB, it is apparent that you are a straight shooter, and you are entirely correct that the role for such types is marginalized and in fact the proffesional and controlled opposition quite often uses such people as a catalyst to establish their own credibility.

                  It is all the hallmarks and trappings of long tried and true issues management and propaganda techniques.

                  This forum does provide a small, rather inneffectual venue for such voices as yours. Oddly they are highly important in the grand scheme of things and on that basis I for one truly appreciate both your presence and your offerings.

                  In the end, Arnies work reinforces the fairy tale the mainstream echo chamger enchants the people with. In so doing it buries the truth. I am not neccesarily demanding truth, as we all know it is relative and elusive, what I think is a more approrpirate demand, is what are the risks to our children and the future. We dont need the absolute truth about every detail, we do need to know the circumstance this disaster has presented humanity and what impact the entire industry may ultimately have.

                  We can assume that the future is dim. The impacts of this disaster monumental. But the fairytale refutes that, propogates more growth in the nuclear field and allows millions to go on exposing themselves to risk.

                  A remotely factual summary of the real situation and its impacts could provide millions with enough information to make proper, life saving decisions.

                  Continuing to exhalt agents like Arnie who reinforce the fairy tale at the expense of the lives most at risk is unnacceptable.

                  Fact is Arnie epressed his wonderment at how the industry survived Chernobyl. Now his work is attributing to its surviving a circumstance that makes Chernobyl look like a walk in the park

                  Remote truths would end the industry and for good reasons.

                  Its time we get on with it.

                  Nobody gets to constantly fail and still succeed.

                  TMI, Chernobyl, Fuku = 3 strikes your out


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                • Heh. I'm still amazed after all these years that the industry managed to survive TMI. It was the only actual warning they'd ever get before the worst started happening. But then, I did learn a lot about how effective it can be to simply deny everything in corporate SOP, and how many people who ought to know better go along with it even knowing it's an honest-to-God miracle they woke up alive the morning after. Go figure.

                  Was working at a little print shop at the beach in Florida in April of 1986. My boss (who was a very nice guy) had given me leave just months before to fulfill subpoena to testify to the NRC and Congress in DC. Which accomplished exactly zip, of course. Same Caldicott crew, but I'm still pretty sure my hubby's the only person ever to have eaten fire in the WaPo newsroom…

                  Anyway, the boss asked me what in the world they were going to do about Chernobyl. I shrugged and told him they'd probably dump boron and sand from helicopters until it stopped burning. And that would probably work, but the helicopter crews would die. It's the USSR, I told him. They don't care if 'heroes' have to die. And sure enough, that's just what happened. Once you know how this industry works – from bombs to power plants, any design – it's not that hard. There's only so many things that CAN be done. They've done none of them at Fukushima…

                  And that, in my opinion, is a crime against humanity.


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                • Kevin Kevin

                  I concur and have repeatedly stated this.

                  It is obvious we are not able to leverage anything, and I mean anything, out of these people.

                  No truth, no adequate evacuation, no adequate comepensation, no competent communications, no support for victims, no acceptance of responsibility and no recognition of risk.

                  It stunned me too, the level of inaction to mitigate the disaster and the bold crime against humanity.

                  Its a fine example of the condition we are in.

                  We are on are own. Good luck.


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            • many moons

              Joy I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I wrote nothing about Arnie being or should be hysterical…infact I wrote that I thought he was doing a good job at informing and trying to close reactors and negotiating very trecherous waters.


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        • Craig-123

          Be my guess you might be trying to skip through the translations into Japanese –and are consequently missing content. Then again, you seem to have an agenda of negation –either through denial that Gundersen said something of consequence, or dismissal of its effect if he did.

          Again: I advise neutral observers here to either listen to the whole video

          > http://www.fairewinds.com/content/arnie-gundersen-japan-national-press-club

          –or wait for a transcript. You can find an imperfect, partial transcript at:

          > http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1330027214.html

          * "There’s another alternative to building nuclear in the future — There are other technologies and Japanese companies are at the forefront of these – some of these renewable technologies, not just creating the energy but moving it around … with computers and smart grids we simply don’t need the paradigm of central station any more." [I snipped a lot, and there should have been something about the Maginot line in the original.--Craig]

          * "In order to make the plant strong enough to withstand the seismic issues that are unique to Japan the cost will increase to the level where other alternatives are viable."

          * Gundersen has been quite critical of the AP1000 and the process leading to its approval:

          > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUmtmYy7qsc (excerpt)

          > http://fairewinds.com/content/fukushima-and-its-impact-upon-westinghouse-toshiba-designed-ap1000-atomic-power-plant

          -in which Gundersen lists the AP1000's ungodly design defects.

          > http://www.ncwarn.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Rept-Fukushima-AP1000-Fairewinds_11_10_11.pdf

          (And thanks, JoyB)

          Craig


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          • Kevin Kevin

            I have been a neutral observer when it comes to Arnie.

            I have gone to bat for him and I have pointed out contradictions.

            I have done through great pains to do this.

            I listened to the whole video, translation included. I said with respect to two of your claims, what you state is not what Arnie said. And I stand by that. You took from Arnies statements what are known as presumptions and spun them in his favour, and made it sound like he trumpted your words.When that did not occur. Which is why I asked for the specific point in the video you refer to.

            Finally the two quotes you do provide, underscore precisely what I am saying. What he said is not what you said. Furthermore, they did not land with a thud as you claimed but rather were buried deep in the bowls of the conference and by the langauge he used where barely high points of the press conference but rather "Arnie also said" stuff. Most of which will never see the light of day, or any ink or coverage at all. Which was my point.

            You consistently suggest that I am biased against Arnie not paying any attention and just attacking. Which, as anyone who reads my posts knows, is an entirely false fabricatoin. I purposely did not comment on this video until I thoroughly watched it all and contemplated his offerings

            I have worked in this field, been apart of many press conferences. I know of what I speak.

            This video ended my capacity to hold out further hope for Arnie to do the right thing. Lets face it Arnie has knowledge, more than all of us combined. I have no doubt that he has first hand knowledge of stuff that would make our skin crawl about this industry.

            The facts are in, in my opinion. I have stated them clearly. He no longer is an independent agent working to inform the people, if he ever was. He is instead, an issues management professional for the industry.


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            • Perhaps a final (?) word on Arnie…

              Our problem (we three investigators at TMI-2, ex-HPs who became publishers and went there on purpose to dig up all the dirt) was that we refused to tailor our knowledge of the accident and its aftermath to what the 'important' anti-nukes – who could have helped us get the truth out – wanted it to be. No one was to be allowed to know too much about what really happened, and we did.

              See, the circumstances of the coverup (which began immediately) simply wouldn't allow it. These would be the parameters, and the only allowable dissent would base upon those parameters. Which were so far from the real parameters as to be total bullshit up, down and sideways. We wouldn't play the game. So nothing ever came of it, since nothing was ever to be allowed to come of it. Our testimony to the NRC in '85 was stricken and post-classified. Improper knowledge.

              Arnie has a forum because he plays the game. The nukes wrote the rules, that's explicit and implicit in the original National Security provisions of the technology itself and first AEC charter. It survives to govern what can and can't be said about the technology to this day. If you want some clout, you must obey the rules.

              I can say what I do because I'm officially nobody. But nobody ever said I can't be who I am and know what I know. You just aren't allowed to say you believe me if you are a somebody. That's okay. I still speak the truth.


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            • I cannot know Arnie's heart. I'm not one to care if their mega-buck lawsuit fell flat 15 years too late to save anybody's life. The thousands of real victims of TMI (and survivors) were never going to get more than a couple hundred bucks apiece for all their suffering. The bulk was always going to go to the lawyers and bigwigs. That's why there WAS a lawsuit.

              Bottom line is that if you and yours are irreparably harmed by these corporate cowboys and their slow dirty bombs, there is no real justice to be had on that level. Lawsuits can occasionally change things a little bit here and there in the legalistic future for somebody else, but only lawyers and bigwigs make money. Victims are just the excuse for the "rainmaking."

              The only way to really ensure a nuke-free future is to stop them in their tracks. Don't let them build those beasties, whatever it takes. Fight to shut them down everywhere you can, BEFORE they've killed your children. There can be no human justice for that – think about it. How much $$$ is your child's life "worth" on their terms?

              We knew before we went that they'd kill us if we gave 'em a chance. And not all of us got out of it alive. But when it was our children on the line, we determined to go down fighting. Because we could. Our story of what happened at TMI-2 has never changed, because it's the truth. The industry's story changed many times. Never has it come anywhere close to Arnie's 'expert' opinion that the containment blew. Because that's not what happened.

              It's just not.


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              • NoNukes NoNukes

                Thanks for all your thoughtful work, JoyB, I certainly don't know as much about TMI as I should.

                The question for me is this:

                Why is Gundersen pretending that there isn't iodine? This isn't in doubt. It isn't over. Why is he suggesting to the children of Japan that it is?

                Bobby1
                February 22, 2012 at 12:35 pm · Reply
                The 160 Bq/kg of iodine-131 in Gunma prefecture sludge, as of Feb. 7, is the highest amount of iodine since they started measuring it on May 1.

                http://www.pref.gunma.jp/05/h6600041.html (Japanese)


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                • Kevin Kevin

                  I wuold venture to guess based on a trend of Arnie's, talking iodine right now counters the official narrative. Like you say, "it isnt over" however, the narrative says it is. Arnie will therefor give all sorts of details about all sorts of stuff, but they all must reinforce the narrative. Iodine means fresh radioactive emissions, therefor not a talking point.

                  I am sure your question was rhetorical, and you know this, your obvisouly bright and informed.

                  I held to the notion that Arnie was gaining a head of steam in order to blow the whole thing out of the water. But instead it is apparant that he is simply managing the issue.

                  Its disheartening. And no its not over, not by a long shot. And once again Arnie does give enough information to support that by saying its going to take thirty years to remove the fuel, but he does so in such away that suggests its just a clean up posing no further risk of emmissions.

                  Its a sad and sorry state of affairs.

                  Would be good to searh out someone we could get behind to overcome the coverup. There are potential candidates.


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  • James2

    Well craig.

    You left out the part where he lied.

    And then the other part where he lied.

    I got it – the nuke industry is going to throw the Mark 1 design under the bus, and say it's all OK because we they are the only one that is dangerous. That would be wrong. The fundamental concept of fission nuclear reactors is flawed. i don't care what model you put out there – if it loses cooling it's going to burn – and when it does it will wipe out the economy of the country who owns it. .

    Other than the baldfaced lies, I don't have much of a problem with what Arnie said.

    But I do have a problem with what he didn't say.

    He didn't say that Fuku is still raging out of control. He said the MOX didn't have any effect on the meltdown (lie).

    That interview has all the markings of an industry backed planted story with a hired dupe – er dope, standing up there delivering the message.

    For all I know the thing could have been staged in the US and not even filmed in Japan.


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  • NoNukes NoNukes

    Okay, I can't leave my husband for Kevin because he just got back from Michio Kaku (one of his Valentine's Day presents, how sad is that?), and he asked my question about the R4 SFP!

    (not verbatim)
    Mr. NoNukes: "What is happening with the Spent Fuel Pool in Reactor 4 right now?"

    Michio Kaku: "Well, three reactors have melted down. They actually managed to drill holes and get a camera in so they could look in and see that the spent fuel rods were still in the pool. Water is still covering them. It is too hot for them to do anything with them right know."

    What do you think? Mr. NoNukes just said to me, "sure, they are covered with water, in the ocean!"


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    • Kevin Kevin

      I think Kaku trips himself up with his own answer.

      If I were tepco and I had footage showing undamaged fuel rods in each of the reactors and SFP it would be broadcast all over the world.

      This is in fact what leads to great doubt. All we get is press releases and dont worry be happy spin, amongst a whole host of obfuscation.

      What we need should be easily obtained. Footage of the critical areas and a clear view on their status. Period. There is none because their status is "fluid" slowly melting through containments of one variety or another.

      SFPs are in the same boat, especially in the case of 3 and 4. Although we did get some footage of sfp 4. however it was non definitive and only showed a portion.


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    • dharmasyd dharmasyd

      @NoNUkes and @James2..Sad. Michio's answers are sad. James 2 has criticized Arnie. I have citicized James2 for criticizing Arnie. Arnie is trying to use his position to improve the situation. I know Michio Kaku, not well, but I had several encounters with him during the Sane/Freeze 1980s actions.

      I do not feel that Michio has said, since the beginning of this, anything helpful. Perhaps it is because he has family living in Tokyo. I don't know why, but he has become very timid on saying anything real about Fuku. That saddens me. But, as James2 ought to realize from our exchanges, I have trouble condemning folks and want to find forgiveness, and understand what might be their excuses.


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      • James2

        Tell me how Arnie's lying to people and downplaying the seriousness of the situation helps to improve the situation exactly???

        Or does he simply improve the situation for your nuclear industry that I think hired him to lie?

        It really sounded like you wanted to find forgiveness when you predicted my death in the other thread.


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      • Kevin Kevin

        Actually early on I felt Kaku used his lofty perch in the mainstream science beat to state some things that pierced the veil and even leaked a bit out of the box. But your observations are correct in the end, as of late he has been nowhere to be seen and when seen, both weak kneed and mealy mouthed.

        Busby stands alone now, besides the venerable and feisty Caldicott.

        Two folks to face down the most powerful force on earth.

        Odds are not looking great.


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  • dharmasyd dharmasyd

    James2 … I just lost a very long thread I was writing to you. I am tired. So all I will say right now is I don't need forgiveness for predicting your death. I didn't predict your death. But I do believe human beings, in our ignorance, are creating the conditions for extinction, for all our deaths. Do I, in your mind need to ask forgiveness for thinking that?

    So, nice try James, but if the chip on your shoulder did not require you to read so fast and to be so defensive about your ideas that you can't see what someone else is saying, I don't want to take the time to re-create my long post to you.

    I will close by saying you do not understand what I am saying. It's like the folks you say can't see the fire you see. Just like that, you can't understand what I am saying.

    Goodnight. May you wake up with better understanding.


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  • bleep_hits_blades

    Well, James 2, I hereby nominate you for the 'most arrogant poster' award. Maybe you've hammered and re-hammered home your point about Arnie to the point of overkill? We get the message, already.


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  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    Blades…I thought I was the most arrogant poster..darn.
    I want a run off….lol


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  • bleep_hits_blades

    James, maybe I will throw in the prima donna/seeks attention nomination as well, so you might be thinking about an acceptance speech – or two – or hell, knowing you, a half a dozen. I'm sure you will come up with something gracious.

    Anyway, all due respect etc. but maybe you could find a new subject upon which to enlighten, or regarding which to bludgeon, us, is all my 'almost mensa-mind' was fumbling with….

    Heart, I will try to come up with a 'special award' for you… frankly,I don't think you stand much of a chance for the arrogance gold cup.


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    • James2

      You can call me anything you want to.

      I don't need any attention at all. What needs attention is the situation in Japan, and It's not getting enough attention.


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    • Net

      Name calling is not cool. Just state the facts and move on. Enough already. Just respect each others point of view and challenge but stop acting like you are in grade school…I actually thought you were complaining about childish name calling an now you are doing it. I am here to learn not read childish name calling. Thanks


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  • bleep_hits_blades

    Some of us felt – I did, anyway – that James2 was quite disrespectful in his remarks about Arnie Gunderson. Also, he just would not let it drop, but kept on in repeated posts, denigrating
    Gunderson. I respect Gunderson and am not ready to dismiss him as a dis-information shill.

    I have since mentioned in another post that I respect James' intelligence and analysis. I do think he was disrespctful toward Arnie Gunderson, repeatedly, and that it was inappropriate and 'too much.'


    Report comment

    • I thought your humorous response was… humorous. Made me smile. We all know James' stridency and absolute certainties about things that aren't absolutely certain at all. Since I can't watch live cams for hours on end, I've often wished he'd contribute more to other discussions because yes, he's intelligent and motivated. Lord knows being radical about what needs doing has it's place, but sometimes it's too easy to become a curmudgeon instead of a useful resource.

      Sometimes it's easy to forget these threads are read by many more people than actually contribute to the discussions. It's a "World Wide" web even though it feels like a chat room at times. I understood your posts for what they offered, and needed the chuckles. No offense to James, or to Net. "Lighten up" can be entirely apropos.

      In that vein, I apologize to anyone who may be confused by my past-life ruminating. There's a reason "TMI" means "Too Much Information" these days, rather than "Three Mile Island." §;o)


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    • Kevin Kevin

      Hey Bleep,

      I totally appreciate where you are at with uncle Arnie, was there until this video myself.

      I am not sure how long you have been at this or how much Arnie you have been exposed to, that said, you will come full circle eventually and its not exactly the highlight of this whole experience.

      I can say without a doubt you too will see, but we will all stil be here.

      And JoyB no problem about the nostalgic journey you take us on. I give you credit for your devotion and commitment after all these years. ITs remarkable really, to have a first hand understanding of the complexities and the sheer futility involved, yet remain solid in your resolve. Its admirable!


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