Gundersen: New development at Fukushima, “Essentially entire plant has a gamma ray haze over it… a haze of radioactive particles” — Tepco: It’s impossible to stop, using more shielding won’t help (AUDIO)

Published: January 16th, 2014 at 7:39 pm ET
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Interview with nuclear expert Arnie Gundersen of Fairewinds Energy Education, Power Hour, Jan. 16, 2014: “The most fascinating new thing is there’s a gamma ray haze over the plant. Gamma rays are like x-rays. Essentially, the entire plant has a gamma ray haze over it to the tune of about 1,000 millirem a year [...] There’s essentially a haze of radioactive particles.”

Tepco Press Conference with summary translation by Fukushima Diary, Jan. 10, 2014: There is no way to shield Bremsstrahlung from contaminated water tanks, Tepco stated [...] shielded by water and the tank material, it turns into Bremsstrahlung. [...] it is technically impossible to shield each tank. Even if they put the shielding material inside of the tanks, it also causes Bremsstrahlung. [...]

From last week: Radiation jumps at Fukushima plant — Now almost 1,000% previous levels — Officials knew of increase but ‘too busy’ to do anything

More about Bremsstrahlung: Gundersen: Fukushima tanks releasing x-rays in very high quantities offsite -- Exposure to people outside plant is very, very high from 'Bremsstrahlung' phenomenon -- Hundreds of tanks could easily start leaking after quake (VIDEO)

Full Gundersen interview here

Published: January 16th, 2014 at 7:39 pm ET
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417 comments

Related Posts

  1. ‘Water Storage Nightmare’: Bolts in Fukushima tanks will corrode in just a few years, plant workers reveal — “Tepco says it doesn’t know how long tanks will hold” -Reuters July 31, 2013
  2. TV: A force beyond human control was unleashed at Fukushima, says former top U.S. nuclear official — Impossible to stop radioactive groundwater flowing into Pacific (VIDEO) September 25, 2013
  3. Tepco: It’s ‘really impossible’ for us to keep storing liquid from Fukushima reactors — We need to think about discharging it into ocean (VIDEO) March 10, 2013
  4. Gundersen: Fukushima reactor buildings essentially now sitting in mud — Soil could ‘disappear’ during quake and bring structures down with it; That can result from what Tepco’s doing to groundwater (AUDIO) September 17, 2013
  5. CNN: Fukushima fallout ‘grossly underestimated’ says new Japan study — “Radioactive poison… contaminating the North Pacific Ocean” — Tepco: ‘Impossible’ to know how much really got out (VIDEO) May 22, 2014

417 comments to Gundersen: New development at Fukushima, “Essentially entire plant has a gamma ray haze over it… a haze of radioactive particles” — Tepco: It’s impossible to stop, using more shielding won’t help (AUDIO)

  • byron byron

    About me: Not on staff @ ENENews, but I like YES Men ideas! Imitated what the YES Men do to try to push the Admin to take some kind of action. Yes, I've been reading intently nearly every day since early April 2011. I'm about the 300th something person to do a Facebook "like" for ENENews. Found out about the site from a Twitter feed that was posted on Common Dreams for a short while. If you go back in the comments section you can see some to the questions that I've posted.
    .. On the part about IP addresses:
    I used to run a BBS (remember those with Modems and dial up access to a local bulletin board?) and the part about new users postings being not visible until I permitted them to post without Moderation really did work. Hit-and-run messages that could not be seen by regular users really did cut back a lot on users who only wished to cause negative replies and arguments.
    ..
    No need to reply, just replying to those who asked about me on a thread from yesterday. OK, back on topic now. Oh, by the way if you scroll down the Common Dreams website there is a good item about Amy Goodman who is currently broadcasting from Japan. Her Wednesday program called Democracy Now! did hint at F being a continuing disaster. ok all for now. peace.


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    • To all visitors and the community of ENENews,

      The following Japan Radiation Citizen Memos are designed to be widely shared everywhere in your local and internet communities. All citizens need to know about Fukushima. Find bulletin boards in your local area and post on social websites. Tell the People.

      Japan Radiation Memo to All Citizens PDF
      http://tinyurl.com/Japan-Radiation-Citizens-Memo

      Japan Radiation Memo in JPEG (for social media upload)
      http://tinyurl.com/Japan-Radiation-Memo-JPEG

      Vital1's Radiation Memo to Parents
      http://technologypals.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/lifesaver.pdf

      Doesn't take much. A printer. Scissors. Thumbtacks. For some,
      only a computer. And the simple motivation to share your care.

      It is also requested that everyone who can, please "like" and "share" ENENews throughout your use of social media. https://www.facebook.com/ENENEWS

      Our governments are bound to each other in collusion with corporations to keep the effects of man-made radiation from us, the People. They will tell us nothing as long as they are able to.

      If you still believe in democracy please do all you can to contact your representatives (state and locals will listen best) http://www.usa.gov/Contact/Elected.shtml

      Use documents here for speaking points and actions
      http://www.fukushimaresponse.org/Actions.html


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      • P.S. There is SO MUCH each of us can do. Radiation monitoring of the west coast is at best minimal. Fukushima is a current ongoing threat to all the world, including the entire United States (as jet streams and ocean currents do not run in place).

        As you will see scrolling here, unborn babies, children and women (par usual) are effected most by radiation http://enenews.com/forum-best-practices-combating-effects-radiation

        US Citizens, please do your best to alert your communities and reps. Not only for yourselves, but for your children and their children. It is guaranteed, for a time, they will also have children. Please prepare them.

        Also, We All, world-wide, have a right to contact California school districts and reps. They are on the front lines and the first highly concentrated plumes from Japan are arriving right on time. http://www.cde.ca.gov/ds/si/ds/pubschls.asp

        There are so many who don't know about Fukushima yet. Please be a part of getting the rad word out.

        Find a mayor
        http://www.usmayors.org/meetmayors/citiesonline.asp

        Let us not be afraid to alert the People and representatives. Our current and future generations depend on the choices we make now.

        A voice of reason and care to share:
        ☢ Perils of Fukushima ☢ News A Wake-up Call From Dr. Stephen Hosea
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zGQPe3_ikQ

        Please All, have the courage to tell your communities about Fukushima. Not later. NOW.

        Aloha


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        • whiteaglesoaring

          Worse still, the probability that the same will happen here in the US is very high…and no one is doing anything about it…especially because of the reluctance to look at the real cause of what happened. The effects of a magnitude 9.0 earthquake are nowhere to be seen on the tsunami videos as it came ashore.

          Magna BSP, Israeli defense contractor at Dimona, sought and won the security contract at Fukushima only a few months after Japan offered to enrich uranium for Iran. Stuxnet developed at Dimona attacks Siemens SCADA valves and spoofs normal readings in control room. Israeli newspapers reported that they had just returned from Japan when the disaster "struck". Admitted that they had the capacity for remote control from Dimona.

          Valves in cooling system are automatically OPEN until COMMANDED to close.

          Iran had Siemens SCADA controls and the technicians didn't know there was a problem with the centrifuges. Fukushima was an attack on Japan that is threatening depopulation of northern hemisphere.

          US also has Siemens SCADA valves in its nuclear reactor designs. Grid EX II exercises in Nov. run by North American Electric Reliability Corporation, known as NERC was searching for vulnerabilities in US grid, suggesting modifying grid to permit variations in phase which would slam generators causing reactors to race to destruction unless their valves could dump the steam…Siemens valves in most US applications, stuxnet easily inserted, reactors meltdown…multiple…


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        • I put up radiation readings from time to time, Ventura Calif. If every did that, the rest of the world would have a weekly general idea of the progressive nature of this ever-growing nightmare.

          Fukushima Research blog on articles and videos since 3-11-11
          http://dailymessenger.blogspot.com/


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  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    The whole plant has a haze over it..but it's coming from the tanks?


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  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    Both..emissions from the tanks greater than coming from the rubble called the reactors and the surrounding area..like where Arnie now says the corium is meeting the groundwater? (below the reactors)

    Ene..Well, I'm letting .. 'the baby walk on it's own for awhile'.


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  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    Painful and effective..morning to you.. chemfood.


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  • bluetick

    Well guys looks like its pretty much a lost cause.. last idea is just turn all of japan into a big dump for all nuclear waste….all waste from the world to go there. Or just sink the whole country,,its just a scab on the world now.. no fixing it…..last person out just turn out the lights…


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  • How Arnie can say it's still okay to eat the fish i don't know
    http://enenews.com/?s=pacific+fish


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  • What is the total sum of gamma radiation that an average worker would be exposed to just walking around the tanks for 4 hours a day?

    Anyone want to take a guess?

    Didn't Arnie say the amount emitted from the tanks was high enough to kill anyone that stood close to one for 4 hours?


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  • Dose for whole Fuku site is 1000 mRem/yr for anyone there.. but that is far away from the tanks.

    What is the dose per hour, when within a couple feet of the tanks?

    And would this diffuse stuff show up on a Safecast radiation monitor?


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  • weeman

    Is there anything tepco can do with any competence, don't try to tell me that tepco was not aware that this would happen, they must have been told by nuclear engineers and they must also have know for a long time, since the inception of tanks being filled?
    Why are the tanks even placed were they put them and not off site, why not use a triple lined pipe to transport to location that would have been a better and more stable and out of harms way if another tsunami hits?
    We are not talking along way a kilometer or two?

    If looks could kill,
    it probably will,
    with tepco in charge,
    and we are all doomed,
    War without solution.


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    • Shaker1

      My thought from the beginning is that Tepco is simply the screen that politicians and society in general attempts to hide behind for their poor decisions. Somehow there's this idea that if they have something before them that they've endowed with 'limited liability' in lawful sense or just the plain practical sense there's less measure of guilt over their actions. (My personal opinion is that dispute over some reasoned scale of innocence does nothing regarding the situation itself, so why bother.)

      There have been obvious outcomes that none can dispute since the realizations of the scale of meltdowns and and containment compromise from earthquake/tsunami and explosions.

      A) There are/will be ongoing emissions/dispersion in some form.
      B) There are/is not a lot of alternatives to mitigating emissions short of all out effort and the assumption of loss of life and fortune. This is not saying that nothing could have been done, just that willing payment for such was never there.

      The approach to the situation has been attempted with the same methods as an admitted and recalcitrant alcoholic friend of mine who I found standing in front of the beer cooler. In our coversation, he said he only had so much money and was trying to decide whether to buy beer or dinner.

      What has happened was a conscious decision(s) to deny that the reality might transcend what one wants. It is/was an overall social decision. I'm not defeneding Tepco. Japan simply bought the beer.


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      • weeman

        Tepco is the Japanese government and it's strings are being pulled by other, lets call them factors.
        Who garantees the loans to build?
        Who limits the liability.
        Who bypasses environmental laws.
        Only the government can and no one else, we took the bait? Unlimited power but at what cost, we forgot about the tolerability of risk that all nuclear reactors run on and our greed lowered the tolerability.


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      • Angela_R

        Hi Shaker 1,

        Check out the statements made about Tepco. Tepco MANAGERS the various sites; it is not stated that they are owned by Tepco.

        As I understand the shareholding of Tepco:
        there are 1.607+ billion Common shares, of these 54.69% are
        owned by Nuclear Damage Compensation Facilitations Corp

        There are 1.6 billion Class A preferred shares
        (owned by 1 Domestic Corp)

        and 370 million B class shares, (also
        owned by 1 domestic Corp)

        best read here:
        http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/corpinfo/ir/stock/stock-e.html

        I suspect that the Compensation fund was either formed or increased after the events of late March 2011. No doubt, at some future date there will be changes in this shareholding.


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        • Shaker1

          Angela, it's surely interesting how this is handled. What I'm alluding to is the impression of reponsibility portrayed to the public. For example, PhillipUpNorth commented today, and just paraphrasing, but he's asking specifically 'Tepco' for the information he desires, blames specifically 'Tepco' for some of the lack of response he advocates. Far be it for me to correct him, as he is correct while I think that weeman is closer to the truth, which is what I implied, that Tepco is the Japanese government for all intents and purposes concerning this event. If the people who represent the political entity 'Japan' had any dreams that the original business entity 'Tepco' could be reasonably able to have resources to handle this, that should have quickly dissolved in their tea like ice. To get anything out of 'Tepco' they have to make an effort to preserve Tepco's assets and business in hopes of realizing profit help pay for this. 'Tepco' going bankrupt would solve nothing, and the same for a fire-sale of their assets. And, in my mind, what's better to leave people with the impression of PhillipUpNorth, even if the reasoning for Tepco existing at all is somewhat practical. It does serve to blur blame in decision-making, as the US did with handling the BP disaster in the Gulf. For instance, I don't believe the general public would have stood for the gross (and I might add, unknown) quantity of Corexit from a governmental response that BP was able to in their…


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  • Nick


    If the electron is accelerated in the electrostatic field around a nucleus, the resulting radiation is called bremsstrahlung;”

    http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/science/know_l2/gamma_generation.html

    …This sign should be posted for planet earth!…
    “NO RADIOACTIVE MATERIALS ARE PERMITTED IN THIS AREA”.
    http://www.stanford.edu/dept/EHS/prod/researchlab/radlaser/manual/rad_safety_manual.pdf


    I read through the above rad safety manual from Stanford (2010).

    I suspect that TEPCO has not been exactly following standard radiation materials handling protocol.

    OT: Lately my pw reads "error" and i have to retype it. Guess NSA is snooping 24/7!

    I mean come on, I must be a THREAT to the global nuclear cabal.

    I want to wage peace, they want to destroy us all.(and probably have)

    Go figure


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  • http://kanaky.freeiz.com

    Are you trying to tell us that TEPCO is preparing to "abandon the plant.." ??


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    • weeman

      It's inevitable always was abandonment, every nuclear physics in the world knew and knows this, levels will continue to rise without containment.
      Do you not think that at Chernobyl the radiation levels around corium is still rising, the big difference is that ii is localized, but at Fukushima it is not localized it is being spread far and wide by the water and like the plant until the stem is stopped, the levels will continue to rise far and wide. With Tokyo in direct line of fire.
      Full stop.


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    • When the mobs – er, Yakuza – run out of homeless people to Shanghai and charge for the privilege of being flow-through burn-outs, what will they do next? Military grunts? Prisoners? That's what they'd do here in the U.S. of 'railroaded pot smokers in prison' slave labor (money trades hands between corporation and state, of course, the prisoners get zip and have no choice) when the immigrants on the Home Depot day labor dock run out…

      When they can no longer field enough human bodies in rad-suits to make it look like they're doing something at Daiichi, the facility will be abandoned. They'll put those "No Radiation Beyond This Point" signs on the fence, and everything will be as it has been from the beginning, is now, and always will be. Fuku'd.


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  • Repeat after the IAEA, NRC, TEPCO and pro nukes everywhere;

    I pledge allegiance
    To the Sun God Rad with his holy hormesis
    And to his sons and daughters; alpha, beta, gamma
    One monopoly, in control of all governments globally
    with lies, deception and coverups for all.


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  • The first mantra all followers must learn; Repeat ad nauseum…

    No one died, no one will die
    radiation is harmless, like a banana
    radiation is good for you, we will get you more of it, for free.
    radiation is clean, green, safe and free


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  • bo bo

    Great job enenews, this thread has already reached 10, 000 views


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  • SykeWar(DELETED) SykeWar

    bo: where do you see that info?


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  • retali8 retali8

    Video for Fuku severity to be understood by new users coming to enenews; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3KNq-PtJZ4

    first hand nuclear nightmare from a japanese point of view; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlWslcjHlPo

    no matter where you are, remember a piece of Fuk-U-shima is everywhere!
    check this… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDzujD-VfJ4


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  • Paulie777

    The problem with the water tanks is the system, which is an array, and one big haze is that it is dispersing in the tanks at one rate, and the gamma rays are removed at a different rate. These gamma rays are not generic, they have a wide range of energies. In contrast to a nuclear reaction where neutrons go into a system, this is energies leaving the system. This is not an adiabatic system, counterintuitively, this system is increasing in power and there is no way to get feedback on this from any iterative numeric results as this system is too slow to register quantitatively. I cannot predict what is going to happen, but it may be bad, really bad. Perhaps an instantaneous powerful pulse of energy that travels halfway around the globe. This gamma ray field already extends farther out than one may think, much farther. This is an effect of the poor formality of the way they are handling this across the board, poor rigorous methods, and poor staffing. (The homeless)? This is the biggest problem there.


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    • The skyshine from FUkushima went out across the ocean and was measured by the people on the Ronald Reagan.. and that was more or less enclosed reactors and spent fuel pools..

      Now we have thousands of tanks open to the air, fissioning coriums, and groundwater coming to the surface with MASSIVE radiation quantities.

      How could anyone predict that it would be a safe place to work for any length of time, once this goes beyond a 'tipping' point?

      Has that point been reached? Is that why the people viewing the cameras say not a soul has stirred in the whole plant since late December?

      The water purification/treatment system broke and no one is saying when or even if it will be fixed.

      Did they turn everything off?

      Are they just letting it all go?

      Has the plant and TEPCO hit bottom?

      Has the planet essentially been abandoned?


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    • Shaker1

      Paulie 777, Your comment is interesting to me. I understand that the energies emitted have various potential, but are you saying that because of the tank configurations they've created an energy structure that is somewhat haphazard (as opposed to say, a fuel assembly which has a definite configuration and therefore predictable output) and that somehow this structure might develop an accretion that is much greater than the sum of all the individual tanks in which the space between the tanks is large enough to allow the energy from each individual tank to dissipate before encountering the energy from another individual tank?


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  • No one died when Fukushima hit the tsunami.

    Carved into the headstone for a dead planet Earth, circling around the planet for all UFO visitors to see, circa year 2020.


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  • Oom Werner P. Oom Werner P.

    There is an oversupply of unbound electrons and the particles have a bruto positive or negative charge resulting in endless attract-the release.


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    • Unbound electrons isn't the issue. This is gamma – photons. Electrons/positrons are particles (beta).


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      • Oom Werner P. Oom Werner P.

        JoyB, yes a little snap-fact here and there doesn’t explain much I agree. Frequency is also widely misunderstood and some think if something moves more or less at the speed of light, it has to be light – not. Basically I just mentioned the primary causes of the phenomenon which is the gross imbalances caused in the atom and every tank is a community of its own with a unique paramagnetic characteristic. Every cloud could also be unique. An electron also doesn’t have a standard energy. The ways it is released differs from the condition. You could therefor expect every type of ray or emission, creating a high energy zone where light refraction is also possible.


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  • Shaker1

    The mechanism of generation is certainly interesting. The basic information I find is from an artifically induced force, controlled application of energy to the target material sometimes in conjunction with 'filter' materials to be able to choose the energy spectrums of emission. Seems here there is an uncontrolled source of energy, especially in the form of beta emission from Sr90.

    From http://www.ceessentials.net/article2.html#section4:

    "Bremsstrahlung radiation produced by a β-particle is a two edged sword, first because it is not especially useful for therapeutic purposes because of its low ionization potential; secondly, bremsstrahlung produced by a beta electron is more harmful to the technologist than the beta particle that produces it, because of the penetrability of an electromagnetic ray. For beta particles the amount of bremsstrahlung increases as the density (high Z number) of the material through which it passes increases."

    What is truly interesting to me is the last sentence. I've worked with tantalum for medical equipment where the parts were used as 'masks' and collimeters. I would guess that this was for x-rays that were already filtered. Also from that citation:

    "It is for this reason that shielding is an important consideration when using beta emitters. Plastic or Lucite are effective shielding materials for a beta emitter since these materials have a low Z number and therefore produce less bremsstrahlung than lead shielding."


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    • weeman

      It's a pity paulie777 did not get back to you, is that a theory or fact, I don't fully understand bremsstrahlung radiation in fact it is beyond me, any enlightenment would be appreciated, layman here.


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      • Shaker1

        Weeman, there is a graphic in the link that I provided. Here's another that also has a graphic. It's information is in regard to x-ray tubes. That may also be of some use. I believe that site, in explaining the filter material mentioned, also gives a good explanation of the energy sprectra expected from materials, though not specifically steel, just materials used in x-ray production.

        http://www.sprawls.org/ppmi2/XRAYPRO/#Production

        The reason that I mentioned tantalum is that is just next to tungsten, a common target material in generation of the x-rays, in the periodic table. One has to remember, too, that we're talking about beta particles (electrons), not neutrons, and that gamma are photons.

        And, yes, it's a pity that Paulie 777 didn't reply specifically. I'd like to know if I understood him/her correctly.


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        • weeman

          Well you got me thinking, but I must admit I had to bring it up to the stellar level from molecular level.
          In a nutshell a high speed electon is a comet, if that comet hits a plant and it has enough speed and mass to knock it from it orbit around nucleus the space vacated is replaced from higher orbit electrons or planets and not necessarily from one band or orbit, the energy released during this process produces x rays proton depending on make up of anode or plant.
          Question how fast is the vacated space filled, faster than instantaneous?
          Am I on the right track or lost in space?


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  • Shaker1

    I might add that steel composition I would imagine is used for these tanks consists of iron, manganese, carbon, phosphous, and sulfer.


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  • Shaker1

    Sorry for misspellings of phosphorous and sulphur. I should proof-read better.


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  • name999 name999

    there is so much haze around us, smog haze, fog haze, and could this haze that surrounds the
    Fukushima plant have migrated into the haze that we live in on the West Coast now? Can that
    be measured? Sorry if this is a dumb question, but trying to understand practical applications
    for daily life…trying to understand what I am feeling and seeing around me.


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    • Shaker1

      name999, I can't answer your question about the haze, but I live in the Pacific NW, too, and find the stalled air and cold night fogs 'different'. I've only been here a bit over 10 years, so I don't have much of a personal idea of 'normal' for which to compare what we're seeing other than it's not in my usual experience. It's good to hear another's perspective. As for how I personally feel about it, I'm still grappling with the fact that I abandoned well over 300 days of sun a year for this place…

      By the way, there were the pink clouds this morning here in Portland, the colored clouds to the west, not east with the rising sun. I can't personally qualify if that is normal either, feel it's odd as I am a lover of the early morning and it strikes me I would have noticed something so starkly visible. On that note, too, I spent 20 years in Albuquerque and built my house in the Sandia mountains just east of the city. The Sandias were supposedly named for the common melon-colored sunsets, so I've seen pink clouds on a daily expected basis. What I'm trying to say is that pink clouds may not be unusual, but I understood the explanation for that lay in the constant dust that is in the air from the high desert.


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  • Paulie777

    Yes, the bremsstrahlung radiation is being emitted from the water tanks and this is a terrible thing in itself, but with the array of circular metal tanks viewed as a whole system, something sinister is happening in that there is a slight increase in energy as a whole happening within these seemingly innocuous array of canisters. Theoretically this stored energy could go supercritical (not in a nuclear reactor sense but a nuclear sense) and it would take on stray particle or even a neutron to set of an array wide release of energy in an extremely high order of magnitude all within a .00001 to .00000001 second, a high energy gamma pulse. No one would even know until the people of Japan and perhaps even China and vicinity all develop sunburns but these are very bad to deadly sunburns. Then the system in a steady state would slowly start the process all over again. Most of the research on nuclear disasters focus on the first minute or two of the disaster, but this needs to be looked at as well.


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  • Shaker1

    Thanks, Paulie 777. Much appreciated.


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  • earthsmith

    Does anyone know if bremmstrahlung radiation can interact with the fuel pool radiation or what ever is escaping around the plant? Is that what Paulie777 is saying?


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    • combomelt combomelt

      i picture the full water tanks like a giant battery farm. Radiation blankets everything and interacts with everything on that site. The BS effect seems to raise the frequency and intensity of the energy dancing around the site.

      As many have said here before,

      "How long until Tepco buries the whole site and walks away forever?"


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  • weeman

    Look at my last post and read what shaker1 posted and think about it.


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  • Shaker1

    earthsmith, I believe what Paulie 777 is saying is that with the presence of so much gamma (photons, think of light) that they could excite each other to greater energy levels culminating in an event that would dissipate that energy, to repeat again. More on the order of a cup that pivots when too full and empties some of its contents to return to the state at which it can fill again to pivot again to fill again… I'm no expert at all, but it's less a matter of 'pick up' anything but the energy state of the photons. That's how I understand it, anyway.


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  • Shaker1

    Solar flares are magnetic disturbances, if I'm not mistaken.


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  • Paulie777

    Terrestrial gamma rays are caused by a relativistic runaway electron avalanche (RREA's) and that is what is happening here. There is only one thing that causes natural bremsstrahlung and that is lightning. Similarly processes are occurring in this water tank array and eventually will send off a major pulse. You may think water tanks are innocuous but that is how they gathered the plutonium together in the early days albeit by help of whirlpools. And a seemingly random contents arrayed in configuration can be set off given a strong feedback event.

    http://www.becarlson.com/presentations/docs/agu2009.pdf

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrestrial_gamma-ray_flash


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    • SykeWar(DELETED) SykeWar

      Paulie777: thank you for this. Should it not be possible to calculate the amount of energy that could be released in this pulse? We have all the necessary data, do we not? Also, for this energy pulse you mention, would this require a trigger such as a worker doing something, a lightning strike, electro-magnetic pulsations from an earthquake or some other environmental factor? Or could it be spontaneous? Or both?


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  • earthsmith

    Shaker1,Paulie777 Thankyou very much for the clarifications and info. this type of radiation is new to me.


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  • Paulie777

    This may sound crazy, but there is also antimatter building up at this site. It is unknown what may happen. this is what is called an unknown unknown and leave it to a nuclear disaster to bring this about. Isn't anyone else excited about this? Positrons are being made here as well, and no one knows what they will do once they are unleashed, perhaps head to the poles? Am I crazy?


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    • zogerke zogerke

      unknown unknowns? that reminds me of the source of that phrase- here:
      "We know there are known knowns: there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns: that is to say we know there are things we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don't know we don't know." —Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, Defense Department briefing….

      things are sounding buggy again…..like flies in the room….


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  • Paulie777

    This is going to be big.


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    • earthsmith

      I agree. Could not stop reading about it all weekend. My mind seemed to fold in on itself when thinking of possible outcomes that I have no idea about .Definitely fascinating but not fun..for me anyway. I would venture a guess that the only crazy ones are the ones who think they can control these forces.


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  • Shaker1

    Paulie 777, I don't personally believe that you're crazy. As for positrons, aren't they already present, or are you just speaking of the increase at the moment of discharge?

    Needless to say, I am greatly concerned. I'll give you an idea of my thoughts in an analogy. If one has a room filled with bells of random tonal potential in which one stikes forcefully a bell that is a 'G' tone, that 'G' bell may excite not just other 'G' bells in sympathy, but through harmonic complements potentially excite all the bells in the room to some measure of discernable sound in cascade. The resulting symphony might be more than unpleasant in simple dissonance. I personally believe that we're doing that now with the permeations of electromagnetic radiation with which we're flooding the environment. Actually, that may be a normal state of nature, but nature has some balance while we have no notion of such a thing. Nature does, though, show its reaction to imbalance as the lightning example you cited, right? Poetically, I might compare what we do with playing with the weapons of Zeus.


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  • truthseek truthseek

    Shaker 1 that is a fabulous analogy! Quite apropos.
    And I agree the resultant energy, overtones
    if you will, would be wretched, with beat
    frequencies and odd harmonics
    …on a human scale tragic.


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  • Radioactive Smoke/Steam Coming Out Of Ground And #3 Reactor Building At Fukushima 2011- 2014 via @AGreenRoad
    http://agreenroad.blogspot.com/2012/02/tokyo-alert-severe-radioactive-smoke.html

    SkyShine, Brehmsstrahlung, Gamma Haze From Gamma Radiation; Example Of It At Fukushima Daichi
    http://agreenroad.blogspot.com/2014/12/skyshine-brehmsstrahlung-gamma-haze.html


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