Gundersen: Nuclear fuel has been moved by groundwater at Fukushima Daiichi — It’s time to walk away from plant for next 100 years once there’s an underground sarcophagus — Much more difficult to contain than Chernobyl (VIDEO)

Published: December 29th, 2013 at 1:16 pm ET
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Fukushima Daiichi: Why It’s So Hard To Clean Up, Fairewinds Energy Education, Dec. 20, 2013:

Arnie Gundersen, Fairewinds chief engineer:  (1:30 in) At Fukushima Daiichi, the nuclear fuel is in contact with the groundwater, because the groundwater has leaked into the bottom of the containment building and it’s gotten into other buildings that surround the containment. That makes Fukushima Daiichi  much more expensive to solve and much more difficult to contain [compared to Chernobyl].

Gundersen: (2:15 in) We need an underground sarcophagus to prevent the groundwater from entering the Fukushima reactors. I think once that’s accomplished, there’s no need to decommission these power plants and turn them back to the ground they are in. The reason for that is the exposure to young brave Japanese workers is going to be way too high for almost 100 years. Because of the explosions and because of the fact that the groundwater has moved parts of the nuclear fuel out into surrounding buildings, the risk to the workers is way too high. It’s time to contain the groundwater, cover-up that site, and walk away for 100 years. The Japanese government doesn’t want that to happen because they want their population to think that this is a solvable problem. It isn’t. The best thing for the Japanese to do is to admit that they’re going to have to live with radioactive rubble at the Fukushima site for over 100 years.

Watch the Fairewinds video here

Published: December 29th, 2013 at 1:16 pm ET
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263 comments

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  1. Footage of new giant sarcophagus at Chernobyl — Still nowhere near dealing with corium over 25 years later — Storage area for fuel debris not yet built (VIDEO) November 28, 2012
  2. Gundersen: “Liquid releases” of nuclear material into ocean will continue for years and years at Fukushima Daiichi — Already 10 times Chernobyl (VIDEO) March 26, 2013
  3. TV: Fukushima underground dam not working, radiation levels now exceeding gov’t limit near shore — Tepco Official: “The flow of contaminated water into ocean is causing problems… It’s quite difficult to stop” (VIDEO) February 9, 2014
  4. Nuclear Expert: Water may NOT have stopped melted fuel from going down into concrete at Fukushima — I raised this issue years ago, but it’s too difficult for regulators to deal with (VIDEO) November 6, 2013
  5. NHK: “Contaminated underground water may have moved aboveground” at Fukushima plant — Asahi: Immediate concern it’s “spilling” into Pacific August 3, 2013

263 comments to Gundersen: Nuclear fuel has been moved by groundwater at Fukushima Daiichi — It’s time to walk away from plant for next 100 years once there’s an underground sarcophagus — Much more difficult to contain than Chernobyl (VIDEO)

  • MOX-GATE

    This is big, a lot of strange little pieces get tied together into one massive truth that the industry will do to the wall to Cover Up.

    Check it out and follow the links and video. The rabbit hole runs deep.

    http://nukeprofessional.blogspot.com/2013/12/mox-gate-reactor-4-melt-out-proves-it.html


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    • charlie3

      I have never agreed with those here who have criticized Arnie, but this makes me suspicious of him; it really sounds like he wants to let TEPCO and Japan get away with just ignoring this and saving money by not cleaning it up.]
      There are no "brave young Japanese" stepping up to clean this disaster up, either.
      SO the nuke industry gets to poison the entire world, and keep its riches, as we look forward to clean-up in 100 years that will never happen, because the money will be gone, and humans will all be dead.
      I think that we have to do our best to ameliorate the emmissions from fukushima in order to give those currently young and alive now the best chance to live out the rest of their lives.


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      • babbo dorian babbo dorian

        charlie3,
        My opinion is more or less like yours.
        The words speak for themselves … from him and from me and from everybody.
        Considering that option (sarcophagus) is simply….. an absurd ilution.
        I prefeer to read the valuable information… when available…. from whoever it may come and make my desicions.
        If I find something that worths (IMO) I post it…. in despite of any opinión…. and do not argue….
        My best whishes for you and yours,


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        • Alaskan Ice Alaskan Ice

          I agree it can be cleaned up. Cost is the issue. Arnie sounds like the apologist here. Hopefully not, but the folks behind the curtain in Vermont have historically been pretty good at getting liberals to misguide other liberals on Vermont Yankee. . .

          Everyone has their myopias. Many have been conditioned to believe along certain lines. When we think along the lines of brooms, mops and plastic rain suits, (all cheap stuff) then cleanup possibilities look pretty dim.

          But if we say we need to design and build (or modify) some gigantic robotic (or cockpit shielded) drilling, earthmoving and cement equipment, then it looks doable, if perhaps untried and (very) expensive.

          Consider humans have built the pyramids, the hoover dam, the interstate highway system, skyscrapers, oil rigs, aircraft carriers, etc.

          In a rational nuclear industry, they appropriate equipment would already be designed, built, and waiting to be shipped around the globe?

          We'll need appropriate equipment for one or more of the other 450 nuclear plants over the next ten or twenty years or so, if the past is any guide.

          Throw a trillion dollars at the problem, have it fail, and then call it unfixable after giving it a shot.


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          • MoonlightEmpire MoonlightEmpire

            Yes, things need to be done, but Arnie is correct in his assessments, and completely justified in his actions over the past 3 years.

            The human spirit does not want to believe that anything is impossible…so we build nuclear reactors, believing that controlling or fixing their damages is possible…but it's not…not for us.

            It's the physics that seals the deal. You could throw a trillion dollars and a million men at the basements of Daiichi, and all you will have is a trillion dollars changing hands and a million dead men.

            Water could not put out the fires of Daiichi…it was vaporized before it even came close to the fuel. In fact, the neutron flux in those buildings is so un-godly high that it is splitting H20 into hydrogen and oxygen. Did we forget that ever cell in your body has H2O? The men will never get close to the sources before they are dead, vaporized from the inside out…the very molecules of their bodies being torn apart.

            This is only a piece of the horrible truth of the nuclear play-things. The knowledge can be retained, but the practice must be abolished.

            The basements of Daiichi: Silent rooms that scream forever.

            But do not despair, this does not mean that no action can be done…there is much work to do…we must all hurry.

            Boycott all man-made items. Boycott anything that is sold in packaging. Start with everything that has any connection to the nuclear industry, in any way.

            Stop yourself from destroying.


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            • Alaskan Ice Alaskan Ice

              "The basements of Daiichi: Silent rooms that scream forever."

              Sounds like my daughter. I'm not talking about working in the basement; I'm talking about excavating a cubic mile of earth if necessary.

              It's well within human capabilities. It's a question of whether we're going to make them pay to clean it up.


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          • It wouldn't take a trillion, give me $120B and it will be done to a 95% level. Complete cleanup of the site and near shore areas is not possible


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            • Alaskan Ice Alaskan Ice

              well the big dig came in at almost 10 times the original budget. . .

              but yeah that's the point: it's doable.

              There are two unhelpful memes here at enenews.

              (1) cleanup is impossible – it lets Tepco off the hook and shifts the fight from responsibility, accountability and action to liability and the original "act of god" tsunami. Answer: build the equipment and remotely dig up to a cubic mile, if necessary, or be liable for doing nothing. . .

              (2) fuku will destroy the world – this thinking is an overreaction that allows bureaucrats and politicians to justify lying to you once they get forwarded your comments by "advisors". Answer: Fuku may really screw up the pacific ocean and the birds and land animals that feed on pacific seafood, or it might just screw it up a little. . .

              In other words, the bad guys want you to believe cleanup is impossible and they want at least a few of you to believe Fuku contamination is the end of the world.

              Besides the trolls (you know already) and the slower folks (you don't), is there anyone here that gets it?


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              • gordon

                I think TEPCO is off the hook because they can't fix this. TEPCO is a user that bought a plant and operated it, then it blew up. What are they going to do? The people that made the thing, nobody's even looking at them, nor is anyone looking at the people whom did the original R&D. The people that did do the R&D, you can put them on the hook because they probably could get the plant under control.

                Also, the Pacific is quite a big place. That this plant is having an effect in such a short time… I'm nervous that it very well could destroy the world. After all, they have yet to turn the mess off in the first place.


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                • Alaskan Ice Alaskan Ice

                  "I think TEPCO is off the hook because they can't fix this."

                  That's the mind poison. Lol


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                • nedlifromvermont

                  gordon! You are wrong. GE was the original maker of this design plant, seller and pusher.

                  GE cannot get this plant under control and they know it.

                  And now you do, too!


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                  • Sickputer

                    Gordon and Ned…Let's not give up yet. I think the plant could be brought under control if an effort is mounted equal to the 10 year moon landing Kennedy Pledge.

                    In fact the best thing the Japanese could do would be to throw up their hands in defeat and call upon the international community to help control the radiation.

                    1000 plus days ago the effort might have been accomplished with 10 trillion dollars worth of workers, machines, and innovative ideas.

                    Now that time has passed the money stakes are higher…maybe 30 trillion dollars and 10 million workers over a decade could cap the plant. Just three big US companies alone from the US have that much money stacked offshore in their tax havens.

                    Yes, it's an almost insurmountable gamble.

                    But we went to the frigging moon! Naked apes flew to and returned from the moon!

                    Can it be so hard to dam an underground river, entomb 4 buildings and dig down to find whatever horrible toxic beast lies beneath the plant?

                    It's a Lord of the Rings battle for human existence against very dangerous conditions.

                    Fukushima Daiichi can be capped. But the question does any world leader have the guts to suggest such a Kennedy Pledge? Without a global commitment the consequences are dire for billions of people.

                    Is your family worth ten thousand dollars each to save members present and future? If not…then we will almost all surely die in the Northern Hemisphere and later so goes the Southern folks.


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              • MoonlightEmpire MoonlightEmpire

                Let me say that all commenters here are welcome, but let's not forget who the newbies are…Alaskan Ice, you are one of them.

                In regards to your first point, cleanup IS impossible. I, and others, don't say this to let any party off the hook, but rather to state the truth, again and again, of the sheer calamity that is nuclear energy on this planet. I have never said that there is no mitigation to be done, there is, but don't confuse yourself or others that any damage of Daiichi can be undone.

                Your digging idea has value, but it is not in any way to be considered a solution, or a triumph or success…it's just more horrible damage by humans to the earth in an attempt to prevent even further catastrophic, human-induced damages to the earth. Although this type of idea may come to fruition as a piece of the mitigation strategy, the true healers of this planet laugh at such folly.

                In reference to the second point you mentioned: It must be understood that, since we are still alive, Daiichi has not ended the world…but do not believe anyone who says that Daiichi could not bring about such a scenario. All other info aside, credible people all over the world are in agreeance that dispersion of the total payload of Daiichi could result in the extinction of many species of life on this planet, homo-sapiens possibly included. But this understanding leaves out the fact that Daiichi is not the only facility of its kind…continued…


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                • MoonlightEmpire MoonlightEmpire

                  …Daiichi is not the only facility of its kind, and in fact there is a similar facility (Daiini) within 7 kilometers. It is obvious that a progression of events is continuing to unfold at Daiichi, and that there has been nothing done so far to ensure that radiation levels on-site will not rise to the point at which a full withdrawl will be necessary…in which case further, faster deteriation of the facility can occur, releasing huge amounts of the remaining radioactive materials. This event can lead to the inability to perform tasks at the next-nearest plant (or even further away), resulting in cascading failures at multiple facilities, until they all pop off, ensuring massive extinction events on this planet.

                  You concluded with asking if there is anyone here that actually gets it…yeah, there is, you just got a response from him…and there are many more. And if you aren't one of the dis-information agents–since you only showed up here within the pasfew days–then, now you know a little bit more. Get it?

                  If you're for real, then stick around. If you're not, then peace-out and enjoy the tuna.


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                  • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                    Pretty sure those recently passed Secrecy Laws inside Japan tell the real tale… :(

                    Moonlight..gets it! :)


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                  • Alaskan Ice Alaskan Ice

                    "And if you aren't one of the dis-information agents–since you only showed up here within the pasfew days–then, now you know a little bit more. Get it?

                    If you're for real, then stick around. If you're not, then peace-out and enjoy the tuna."

                    I've known trolls personally, I can tell you most are persistent, not transient visitors, to blogs. Some spout nonsense and distraction. The most insidious do their homework, appear the most knowledgeable with 95% of their information, and insert the lies of their agenda in the other 5%. That's why you need to be very careful about claims that this is impossible.

                    One can say that it's going to be difficult, or untried, or with the potential to get worse, but anyone who says it's impossible is full of crap. No one really knows, even the nuclear PhDs are in uncharted territory.

                    And if the overriding concern is making the situation worse, there's nothing that says it won't get worse as the corium shifts around on its own, and that certainly isn't going to change in a mere hundred years. You are full of crap.


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                • Alaskan Ice Alaskan Ice

                  As far as "newbies" go, I'll stack my life experience up to anyone, thanks. At any rate, I've been lurking here for years and finally decided to test whether this website was for real or just a sophisticated pied piper to lead the people round in circles. On that I am not entirely decided.

                  I think most people are in agreement that the nuclear plants shouldn't be built and should be got rid of.

                  However, with about 450 of them, and one going pop every ten or twenty years, we need to develop the technology to remotely excavate a cubic mile and have it ready. This incident is as good as any to give it a shot. It's not impossible with enough resources and good engineeers. There is no will to spend the money instead of letting people die. Particularly if they can use the excuse that it's impossible to fix as an apologia. . . If you buy into their argument, count yourself as part of the problem, MoonlightEmpire.

                  I didn't conclude, i asked who got it?

                  With respect to your parade of horribles example of an ever increasing exclusion zone, obviously, those plants nearby would have to be shut down prior to the excavation.

                  Ultimately no one can say with certainty that this cleanup is impossible, because no one really knows what they hell happens with corium in the ground, and no one has really tried anything but pouring cement over Chernobyl.


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                  • Alaskan Ice Alaskan Ice

                    The other sinister twist is the possibility that letting this problem fester plays into any potential psyop, designed for strategic interests, to create popular opposition to nuclear power among have-not nations so that the nuclear club can solidify their monopoly, beyond the NPT.

                    So the globalist nuclear club gets to use their own internal progressive opponents to ensure that the third world masses keep their rulers from trying to build nukes or even nuke plants to build nukes. . .

                    From the perspective of satellite/buffer states as well as the third world, it must certainly seem more than a coincidence that the nuclear-club is having second thoughts about nuclear bomb making power plants just as their spheres of power are receding, post peak oil. . .

                    Without some comprehensive arms-control/disarmament progress in the west, is it any wonder the Japanese aren't interested in anything but covering this up and pushing forward with their bomb making?


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                    • Alaskan Ice Alaskan Ice

                      in the moonlight of our empire, should they take seriously any suggestion that ultimately prohibits them from building what we already have?


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                    • MoonlightEmpire MoonlightEmpire

                      Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I look forward to reading more from you, and future dialogues. I would have replied to your next comment, but there was no "reply" button on it, so I'm putting it on this one.

                      I fully agree that, as of right now, we are certainly going to need the digging machines/tech, and experience in order to contain future meltdowns. My hopes have been that we will all come together, abolish nuclear in all forms, and begin decommissioning…hopefully preventing any meltdown from ever occuring again. I still hope this, but it is prudent to make preparations, especially since that which I'm hoping for has not yet happened.

                      Your points above are valid. I guess I hope that all the money spent on the construction work and digging and whatever else doesn't go directly to the perpetrators through subsidiary companies or whatever, but I guess that doesn't really matter too much if the job actually gets done.

                      I still stand by the fact that, once the fuel is even created–let alone melted down–it can never be "cleaned up" if it is still here on the planet. Yes, mitigation is possible, and much more should have been done since the very beginning…but it's never too late.

                      Looking forward to hearing more from you.
                      M.E.


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                • Alaskan Ice Alaskan Ice

                  @MoonlightEmpire: "[excavating a cubic mile is] just more horrible damage by humans to the earth in an attempt to prevent even further catastrophic, human-induced damages to the earth. Although this type of idea may come to fruition as a piece of the mitigation strategy, the true healers of this planet laugh at such folly."

                  I suppose the "true healers of the planet" would argue to shut down the plants before they go kaput, as would I.

                  But the laughable folly is choosing ongoing release of nuclear contamination into the Pacific ocean and the Japanese watertable over excavating and filling in (another) big landfill like all the others littering the globe already. You got it backwards.


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                  • MoonlightEmpire MoonlightEmpire

                    Agreed. I don't advocate doing nothing, either. Ongoing release is bad. We are communicating about a very massive topic, in very short blurbs.

                    I appreciate your comments. Keep it up.


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                  • nedlifromvermont

                    She's trying to undo the nastygram. Thank you M.E. for your efforts to include.

                    Alaskan Ice: We are on the same team: Shut Them All Down Now. They were never necessary. That part was a LIE. Along with the LIE about safety, and the LIE about cheap.

                    The nukers are very good LIARS.

                    Remote controlled cubic mile dig? Technologically challenging, yes and expensive and probably ultimately fruitless.

                    Dry casking the nuclear spent fuel shit everywhere on an expedited basis is what makes sense. They don't want to spend the money taking care of their shit poison.

                    Regulators are bought off everywhere for less money than the casks cost so they don't hardly do any casking. The nuclear asses. While they still can! Like at Turkey Point, in Homestead, Florida, of Hurricane Andrew fame. Two feet above sea level, average elevation for the 6,000 acre park on a sandy point in south Florida.

                    This is stupidity staring you in the face. This is stupidity yelling at you. But GE stupidity is very rich and influential, so we just take it.

                    Cask as much of the waste and the corium (if possible) as soon as possible; the rest will find it's way into the ocean. Then back onto land and again into the ocean. JoyB has taught us all this.

                    It's all very sad. Moonlight Empire didn't need to insult you, and you don't need to be defensive.

                    Glad you are with us.

                    Peace, brother.

                    It's very sad about Alaska, British Columbia, Washington, Oregon and California.


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              • I get it.

                And pretty cool, I just bought some good mushing equipment for my dogs, company called Black Ice (from Minnesota but with Alaska connections) Your name reminded me of them.


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      • OldFool

        The basic problem is that this situation now has NO solution. The zeolite trench he recommended would have worked, but it was never done by the Japanese – it was going to cost too much money they said – but it is too late now. Before lynching A.G. for merely stating the horrible truth, how about thinking it over just a few seconds. The molten cores are probably emitting about 100 to 1000 Sieverts per hour. There is now No Technology On Earth to deal with this Mess. The only hope is to block the water leaks into the Pacific Ocean as best as possible and wait for the technology to be developed to deal with this MESS. Anybody sent in now (you can personally volunteer if you like) is going to die horribly in agony and still achieve absolutely Nothing – this is The Sad Truth. If the water leaks cannot be blocked in the meantime, the Pacific Ocean dies and then humanity and entire biosphere gets cooked. Game Over.


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        • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

          Man what a great promising technology this Nuclear shit is… :(

          An entire world run by idiots.. :(


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          • Foggyworld

            Elie Wiesel has said often that the biggest sin of all is Indifference. To push off for a hundred years what must be addressed right now is in fact the biggest of sins. Some people out here could do positive things so to chose to leave things as they are with the Pacific close to dying, makes no sense.

            The Japanese have consistently refused help from nations who have more experience because their main concern is now and always has been about "face."

            I, too, question Mr. Gundersen's beyond bizarre notion of walking away. It's as if he, too, has sold his soul to the company store. Very sad..


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          • deaddolphins simonhhh

            They are worse than idiots…they are psychopaths acting deliberately in their collective insanity and international criminals of the WORST order…

            The real truth of this poisonous mess is horrific…


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        • cooterboy

          Spot on OldFool.
          Science first then the technology will follow. R&D needs to work hand in hand with skilled workers who can understand the technology and science so they don't screw up their mission.

          The greatest skilled work force is sitting next door and you probably call them mom and dad. These are the millions of baby boomers, with the advanced skills, to carry out any mission. Carpenters, iron workers, field engineers, draftsmen, field superintendents, architects. The greatest work force in modern history is now retiring. I'm one of them.

          If you want to know where to catch fish, just stop and give the kid whose walking down the road with a fishing pole and give him a ride.

          Mr. Gundersen hasn't sold out anyone. He's stating a reality that is hard to swallow. The technology doesn't yet exist to tackle this devastation. The nuclear industry sold us what we wanted, cheap electricity and a couple of really nasty bombs.
          They didn't think this thing through. GE comes to mind.

          In Washington State we defeated the nuclear industry by voting to keep Wall Street investors from building nuclear power plants, it was called WPPSS (whoops). Through unscientific means, stuff they didn't even understand, they built 3 plants of such quality they can't pass inspections.

          http://www.historylink.org/index.cfm?DisplayPage=output.cfm&File_Id=5482

          Fukushima is a historic train wreck in slow motion and we cannot stop it. yet
          Peace


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          • nedlifromvermont

            nice comment, cooterboy (whatever that is??)


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            • cooterboy

              This is my dog Cooter sitting in my farm truck. I call him cooter boy when I'm pleased with his attention span and he gets a kick out of it, otherwise his working name is coot. Cooter is his general, all is well name. He's a springer spaniel 7 yrs. old.

              Sorry it took so long to reply as I just learned that you can type in your search name and up pops the previous comments.

              Peace,


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      • I'm thankful for Arnie and anyone trying to help.
        But i absolutely want TEPCO to shore up the unmitigated and ongoing forever contamination. We've all known from day 1 that TEPCO intends to do nothing and spend nothing they are not forced to do as a result of international pressure.
        Japan holds huge hunk of USA national debt. USA doesn't want them to diminish that stake in our killing machines.

        Arto Lauri recently discovered a video of the unit4 explosion which is most revealing. Posted it at my site…
        http://wyynd.tripod.com
        His analysis also interesting.

        Realizing the depth and length of Japan's lies and misinformation..i say someone is gonna die from this no matter what so it might as well be the high risk workers as me!
        Sorry to be so blunt!


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      • TREV TREV

        |I read the same piece from arnie as you and he is saying that in order to save lives, it is better to wait.
        You say you have always supported Arnie but to just come an say you are now suspicious of his motives does not make sense.
        He is saying why decommission now as lives will be lost.
        Frankly, I consider your remark regarding suspicion very suspicious…


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    • VanneV anne

      Well you still have to worry about, the ocean and rain and typhoons and the underground river which is so deep you couldn't possibly dig that deep. And the corium is no doubt a mile down already. And what about the next big earthquake which would break up any sarcophagus. And the radiation levels are so high they will eat trough any concrete barrier put up.

      Why Underground Entombment At Fukushima Daiichi Won't Succeed
      By Yoichi Shimatsu
      Exclusive to Rense.com
      Copyright 2011 – All Rights Reserved
      7-28-11
      http://www.rense.com/general94/whyf.htm


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        • Gasser Gasser

          Evaluating this catastrophic event as an atheist pragmatist, no amount of super High-Tech or Micky Mouse paranoid construction will stop the Fukushima Atomic Genie Monster Blob's from constantly leaching radioactive death poisons onto the land, ocean and atmosphere or exploding Japan off the map.

          A cement or other exotic materials cofferdam will have to be hundreds of feet deep, and more than a hundred+ feet thick completely surrounding the entire huge Daiichi complex to stop water from migrating around the Corium's into the Sea, and as they spend years constructing this paranoid world $aving boondoggle, Typhoon rains will fill it up before they get a chance to completely cover up the site like Chernobyl as continual earthquakes will fracture the cofferdam into a sieve.

          Now consider the amount of construction traffic in an out of the contaminated area for the paranoid boondoggle, each vehicle tire will track out on to the highways untold thousands of times, every known Plutonium/Uranium MOX daughter's, plus other unknown interactive radioactive isotope poison's, and don't forget huge amounts of heavy duty construction equipment will break down and will be highly contaminated with no one wanting to repair it, and have to be treated like an empty beer can that cannot just be tossed in the bushes or recycled.

          [Cont]


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          • Gasser Gasser

            [Cont]

            Also, thousands that will die from the job will be radioactively hot as their Hazmatt suites including their excreted body fluids and solids will have to be dealt with…by this time (5 years at best) all the Japanese evacuees will be so contaminated no Country will allow them refuge, but again, by then we all (world wide) will be in the throws of death.

            No amount of math professors, scientist, bleeding heart liberals or time wasting religious prayer's to a sky daddy will save the radioactive chemtrailed smogged out blue marble Earth, that we all (me included) have used up, burning it's resources to stoke the fires of commercialism.

            When the Buck Ball's start bouncing the digits inside your Inspector Geiger counter into a blur, its time to stuff a Chinese made garden hose up your Japanese car exhaust pipe and quickly guzzle a bottle Russian Vodka as you listen to stupid drug induced American rap music to this bad nightmare movie your acting in…there I fixed it all for ya….Aloha!


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        • nedlifromvermont

          and Anne. If it's underground, running through some soil matrix, it's not a river but "groundwater flow." Unless it is a limestone "karst" formation … and then it really is a river, underground, like in a cave. Love your research.


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    • VanneV anne

      The porous sedimentary rock, clay, and mud will not hold up the weight of the sarcophagus. Land is liquified also from the failed wall built to hold in the groundwater. And will be further liquified by the ocean traveling through the corium tubes.


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      • Sickputer

        Anne the voice of pragmatism pens: "The porous sedimentary rock, clay, and mud will not hold up the weight of the sarcophagus."

        SP: OK…so when we have a broken egg we make a big omelette/omelet. *:-)

        Fill that sucker in until it stops in Argentine waters. >;->

        Just kidding, but if Japan is to survive (and a lot of other Northern Hemisphere humans), then drastic, risky efforts must be deployed. No containment idea should be dismissed until it totally fails.


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      • Sickputer

        Sorry Dr. G….didn't mean to pull you below me when your general thread remark was meant for anne. Gotta hit the Reply button. *;-)

        Anne might indeed be right, but very few of us here were boots on the ground at Nukashambles. I don't know if all hope is lost for mitigation. I hope we have viable options.

        Hope springs eternal in my brain…

        repeat this manta: "We went to the moon SIX times! 12 humans walked on the moon from 1969 to 1972.

        Can't we stop a problem that is not 238,000 miles away? Maybe not totally…but we can try to make a difference for our future generations.

        I owe it to my grandkids and children to not give up. One way or another I will try to extend their chances for survival.

        I will volunteer if asked for a Fukushima Pledge.


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  • What Mr Gunderson says makes perfect sense. Never heard of an underground river being dammed and diverted before. Sounds expensive. That would be a good start.
    The reality is Fukushima is a damage mitigation project not a decommissioning project.
    However it is being ran as a public relations campaign. This is all normal behaviour as I watch Western society borrow from future generations. We are leaving our children with a legacy of selfishness, darkness and illness. As this new year approaches please think of ways to leave future generations something. Fukushima is only one symptom of the selfish attitude and money worshipping and faith in dark science that is ruining this planet for future generations. Not until the last tree is cut down and the last body of water is poisoned will we realize you can't eat money. Peace and Happy Holidays


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    • Michele

      Mark, I think that they diverted the river underground before they built the bloody nuclear power plant. It is pure selfishness and the nuclear industry trying to defend itself that has brought us to this point. It was a lost cause from the 311 beginning.


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      • On google earth the wooded area to north of plant would appear to be a flooding overflow path. Most of river continues underground.


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      • Michelle, others will chime in on this im sure. There is an underground river or stream of water flowing from the mountains. The core coolant is leaking into this stream and entering the pacific. Arnie and others have talked about it its well documented. Sorry no time to provide links but im sure others will back me up. Peace.


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        • Jebus

          I think there is a good possibility, (probability?), that one or more coriums are sitting in/at or below sea level in the ground…


          Report comment

          • weeman

            The basements of the reactor buildings are below sea level.


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          • nedlifromvermont

            there is corium in the vent pipes, corium in the basement, corium in all of our lungs and testes and ovaries a,d masses and blobs of the stuff sitting, smoldering underground. It's bloody everywhere … and there really is no place to hide.

            They learned you can't scrub radioactivity from Navy ships after the Able and Baker tests in Julky 1946 at Bikini Atoll. Sand blasting cleans the ship but just moves the actinides into the biosphere more readily.

            Lovely stuff these uranium fission isotopes, which maintain the nuclear energy of the uranium nucleus, conceived in the dying throes of a Galactic Supernova.

            Should have left it in the ground … was relatively safe unconcentrated. Sure radium and radon gas resulting ….

            Nuclear fission so Sheeple could waste electrical energy? Very bad idea, and US Government sanctioned it?? and pushed it??? and held it's makers harmless from damages????

            very fishy, indeed!


            Report comment

    • weeman

      I personnel know it is a mitigation project and not a decommissioning job, always have and you can only take the path of least resistance and have to learn to live with it or perish.
      Like Chernobyl, Fukushima has areas of no go and only time will reduce this and as areas become less radioactive they will be dealt with but some areas probably will never be contained fully and anything that is flushed into the ocean is forever.
      The big difference is Chernobyl is not contaminating ground water to the degree that Fukushima is and no matter what else they do they must stop ocean contamination and then they can walk away, to a extent they will never be able to completely ignore.


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    • humptydumpty

      Some of the technology for this proposal was used for the Big Dig in Boston. But this is an entirely different situation where humans can't go near the excavation, so everything would have to be controlled remotely and all the super-expensive equipment would end up being abandoned in the sarc prior to dumping sand & boron into it. Aside from how to dig underneath the coriums (not even knowing where they are), there's still the question of what to do with all those tanks of contaminated water …more being added all the time. Don't know if that could be contained in a sarc, which would be gigantic. They're most likely going to say Fuk it and dump it all into the ocean. 100 years? Don't think we humans will be around that long.


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      • Alaskan Ice Alaskan Ice

        Good point, the big dig was challenging because it was below sea level too, just like Fuku cleanup will have to be done, but with robotic equipment. Hopefully it won't take as long as the big dig. As Mayor Menino said in Boston "Rome wasn't built in a day either."

        I can't believe all the naysayers, in the age of drones, when mankind has demonstrated the construction ability to dig the panama canal and strip mines that can be seen from outer space.

        Of course this is possible, folks. It's a question of how big the machines are, how far out you want to start, how deep you're willing to go, and how much money you're willing to pay.


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  • Michele

    I believe Arnie Gundersen, I believe Arnie Gundersen, I believe Arnie Gundersen…….Step away from the deadly nuclear power plant for 100 years and build an underground sarcophagus that can collect the groundwater from entering the Fuku reactors. It would be impossible to build considering the geology of the ground that the plant has been built on. The sarcophagus at Chernobyl has not solved the problem there and that plant is not on the top of rock with a fault line under it.


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    • VanneV anne

      Fukushima is on top of clay and mud. There is no bedrock. The underground river has been there for millions of years. A fluvial fan river accumulating muc and clay on the way to the ocean.


      Report comment

      • NoFixedID

        Anne, are you sure this is true? Can you cite sources for your claim that the plant is built on clay and mud?

        The following site provides a summary of the geology at Fukushima. It states:

        >>In order to build the plant – originally only Unit 1 – the upper sedimentary layers were excavated. These are Quaternary alluvial deposits composed of clay and sand which are friable or semi-hard (green and brown in the cross-section). Thus the plant was built on "mudrock" type sedimentary rock (yellow in the cross-section), which is a muddy rock composed of clay and silt (very fine sand). But the term "muddy" does not mean that the rock is soft. It simply means that it is a rock whose matrix is clay; it is also called "argillite". <<

        The site acknowledges that some of the sedimentary layers are porous, and that a vertical fault can probably channel contaminated water to deep levels.

        http://www.fukushima-blog.com/article-the-geology-of-fukushima-88575278.html


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        • humptydumpty

          The ground may become "liquified" in a severe earthquake, so I think "mud" is an apt term.


          Report comment

        • VanneV anne

          The Geology of Fukushima. Porous ground, lowered 10 metres, built over an aquifer with a fault line present, with basements below sea level
          August 18, 2013, Paul Langley
          “…I finally have a coherent picture. 2.5 years of obstruction by nuclear industry aimed at preventing people from having any coherent picture of the sequence of decisions which resulted in this nuclear disaster. 1. They lowered the Fukushima coast by 10 metres to make it cheaper to pump cooling water to the proposed power plant. 2. They built the power plant over an aquifer and on ground with a fault line present 3. They built the basements below sea level. 4. The quake diverted the underground river of the aquifer through the basements 5. Being below sea level the emergency generators and switchgear were doomed to be flooded. 6. cooling failed, the reactors melted down, the 70 holes in each reactor bottom (design of control rod entry) meant fuel and water leaked from bottom of reactors. 7. TEPCO decision to put emergency generators and switchgear in basements. to save money in 1966. 8. 400 tons of water must be poured into reactors per day to keep them cool. 9. this water enters the underground river and flows to the sea. 10. fuel is too radioactive to approach and remove and will remain so for years. 11. the flow of radioactive water to the sea will continue.

          12. No nuclear expert on earth knows the disposition of the fuel inside and outside the reactors. 13. Japan and the world must live with this…


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        • VanneV anne

          Quoting from your article:

          The third paper presents a detailed analysis, also shown in two cross-sections, of the various geological strata inside this thick Cenozoic sedimentary coating. This is the list of the main strata, identified by letters, from the closest to the surface ground, down to the deepest. It is followed by maps, cross-sections and an analytical table:

          - T3: muddy and sandy rock (Tomioka layer, Neogene)

          - T2: sandstone with some inclusion of tuff (Tomioka layer, Neogene)

          - T1: sandstone with heavy inclusion of tuff (Tomioka layer, Neogene)

          - TI: clayey sandstone (Taga layer, Paleogene – Neogene)

          - Yu: alternating muddy and sandy rocks (Yunagawa layer, Early Miocene)

          - Sr: hard sandstone and muddy rocks (Shiramizu layer, intermediate between the Oligocene and Miocene)


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        • VanneV anne

          [Geology of Fukushima]
          “I have talked with some of my colleagues (geology professors) today, and some of them knew for many years/decades that the bed rock of the Fukushima Daiichi Nuke Power Plant is soft sedimentary rock. They do not know why government (both national and local/prefectural) approved for the construction of the plant on such a bad spot, and can only think of*unethical acts of polititians and the industry.*Also,*my colleagues warn that the type of bed rock, which geologists identify,*and the strength/suitability of the*bed rock, which soil/geo-engineers determine, is different, even though I would*still support that*young sedimentary rocks below the Fukushima Daiichi Nuke Plant is NOT*suitable for constructing buildings that have to endure earthquakes. ”
          http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=3356008#post3356008


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        • VanneV anne

          Faults unconsidered in the seismic design of Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear … Map of Outer sea from Shioyazaki” (Geological Survey Japan, 2001)
          http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/betu11_e/images/110531e4.pdf


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        • VanneV anne

          Why Underground Entombment At
          Fukushima Daiichi Won’t Succeed
          By Yoichi Shimatsu, 7-28-11
          “Fukushima No.1 rests on landfill comprising loose rock and sand over the natural seabed and is positioned only a couple of meters above the high tide mark. Water seepage and earthquake-caused liquefaction have seriously disturbed this rather weak soil structure….
          “Much of the danger comes from simpler processes. Extremely hot magma, consisting of nuclear residues mixed with soil minerals, will boil any sea water seeping underground, creating pressurized steam.Think of oatmeal cooking in a pot and how bubbles create blow holes. The same is happening inside the landfill.
          “The steam-created tubes harden when they cool, leaving lines of structural weakness. Eventually, these air pockets will collapse, and the massive weight of the water-filled reactors, piles of spent rods and their supporting structures will drop into deep sinkholes.
          “If the magma tubes become filled with sea water, the landfill will resemble a gigantic sponge, prone to liquefaction and collapse under earthquake motion. Even the resonance vibrations from large machines could trigger the sudden opening of new sinkholes.
          “Water holds other dangers as well, since it is a better medium for nuclear fission than the mix of stones, dirt and concrete now under the reactors. Once sea water seeps into the newly opened underground channels, the fissile particles will become free-floating and fire neutrons into bits of…


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          • VanneV anne

            Once sea water seeps into the newly opened underground channels, the fissile particles will become free-floating and fire neutrons into bits of uranium, plutonium and other isotopes, triggering cascades of fission. The resulting steam pressure is volcanic, bursting out of the ground and spewing vast amounts of radioactive material into the atmosphere. The oatmeal spatters across the stove top. …”
            http://www.rense.com/general94/whyf.htm


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        • VanneV anne

          “…The whole reactor site sits on sodden ground, which has now become unstable, muddy and possibly liquefied. The site itself experiences many minor earthquakes each day, but should a quake greater than 6 or 7 on the Richter scale occur, it is likely that one or several of the buildings could collapse with absolutely disastrous consequences….”
          http://enenews.com/fukushima-reactor-cores-melt-china-syndrome-gone-earth-1500-pounds-plutonium


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        • VanneV anne

          “…Because the reactor complex was built upon an ancient river bed located at the base of a mountain range, huge quantities of water flowing down from the mountains (1,000 tons daily) are circulating around these highly radioactive cores absorbing large concentrations of radioactive elements….”
          http://rt.com/op-edge/fukushima-catastrophe-health-japan-803/


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        • VanneV anne

          Sickputer
          September 25, 2013 at 9:38 am
          "There is no depth that reaches granite bedrock because the layers are sedimentary sandstone/mudstone for as deep as humans can drill. Easily fractured, leaks like a sieve, and has a documented fault line fissure to the Pacific Ocean…."
          http://enenews.com/nuclear-expert-i-believe-fukushima-fuel-melted-through-at-some-reactors-gone-beyond-building-and-now-its-in-bedrock-audio/comment-page-1#comment-389706

          "The fluvial fan from the river underneath Fukushima Daiichi existed for millions of years, and deposited clay layers. Porous sedimentary rock down to the magma."


          Report comment

          • Sickputer

            Thanks anne for citing me…but I sure hated posting about the crappy site they built a 6 unit megaplex on…one of the largest nuclear plants in the world.

            Built on a site that was a recipe for disaster even before they scraped down the top layers of the mountain slope to ensure it would not survive damage from a large tsunami.

            Japanese/US nuclear engineers, architects and bankers…your greed and arrogance knew no bounds for half a century. Shame on you for eternity.

            You may have killed us all. Hope you're happy with your cushy paychecks and pensions. If you get painful cancer or your loved ones succumb it will be karma you created.


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        • VanneV anne

          “…Liquefaction occurs when saturated soils lose their strength and integrity and begin to flow like water during an earthquake. When this happens, foundations shudder and structures can shift or even sink.
          “Geologists are releasing their findings from the massive undersea earthquake and warning that the eastern coastal regions of Japan are in danger of falling into the trench created in the sea floor….
          ” The areas closest to the epicenter of the quake jumped a full 4 meters (13 feet) closer to the United States, geophysicist Ross Stein at the United States Geological Survey told The New York Times….”
          http://www.helpfreetheearth.com/news307_Japan.html


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        • VanneV anne

          “This cross-section shows a ground discontinuity at a depth of around 200 m, corresponding to a change in the nature of the rock. Between ground level and – 200 m, we find the geological layer of Tomioka, dating from the Neogene; the layer below it is older, it is labeled as belonging to the Paleogene – Neogene and corresponds to the Taga layer.
          "The third paper presents a detailed analysis, also shown in two cross-sections, of the various geological strata inside this thick Cenozoic sedimentary coating. This is the list of the main strata, identified by letters, from the closest to the surface ground, down to the deepest. It is followed by
          maps, cross-sections and an analytical table:
          -T3: muddy and sandy rock (Tomioka layer, Neogene)
          http://a397.idata.over-blog.com/580×537/4/37/62/00/geologie/geology/tabeau.jpg
          http://ddata.over-blog.com/4/37/62/00/The-Geology-of-Fukushima.pdf


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        • VanneV anne

          PavewayIII
          April 27, 2013 at 1:47 am
          “Daiichi was build on a fluvial fan (the mouth or delta) of an ancient river. Dig down and there's sand and clay layers deposited there millions of years ago.”
          Fluvial fan deltas: Linking channel processes with large-scale
          Morphodynamics
          “…Fluvial fan deltas are fan-shaped zones of sediment
          accumulation ending in standing water.…”
          http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mpl/Ge126_Reading_List/Sun_et_al_2001WR000284.pdf
          http://enenews.com/fukushima-reactor-cores-melt-china-syndrome-gone-earth-1500-pounds-plutonium


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        • VanneV anne

          PhilipUpNorth
          December 6, 2013 at 7:26 am
          “Anne, I agree that the corium lava tubes must be considered, as the sarcophagus over Units1-4 is planned.
          “As corium melted mudrock under Units1-3, the sand in the mudrock was turned into glass. Since mudrock is porous, while glass is not, it can be expected that the downward passage of corium consolidated the mudrock material into corium lava tubes. Corium lava tubes are water-filled channels lined with glass, stones, and nuclear debris. It can be expected that ongoing fission raised the temperature of the corium to approximately 5,000 C. The corium would have descended quickly, through the fill and mudrock, straight downward. I do not believe that much branching would have occurred, which would spread the corium out, and would have quickly halted the downward progress of the molten corium mass. Nor would groundwater have halted the corium's downward progress, as only the outside surface would have crusted, insulating the molten mass within. Sideways drilling under the reactors, or use of directed fracking drilling techniques, would be able to quickly locate the corium lava tubes, and follow them down to the corium mass.
          “No effective planning for the "decommissioning" of Reactors1,2,&3 can occur until the location and configuration of the corium is known. If corium lava tubes exist under Reactors1,2,&3, they must be filled with concrete in order to support the Reactor Buildings and the Sarcophagus above, against the…


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  • norbu norbu

    Time to walk away? That is crazy. If we do that in 100 years this planet and all life will be dead. Geez Arnie I am shocked you would say that. Never give up hope.
    N


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    • many moons

      That's what I think…Arnie makes it sound easy….walk away and live with contamination….what if the island population can't live with the contamination? Sounds a little too easy to me….just cover it up and walk away…what will that change?
      And what will 100 years matter if the majority of this mess will be active for thousands of years….

      Arnie, I think you are handing out some propaganda….
      If this was ever a possibility why wasn't it suggested before….
      I think at this point the plant is too toxic to work on and they are in fact abandoning ship and letting whatever happens happen, and you are suggesting that to be a solution.


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      • We Not They Finally

        No, many moons. I believe what he said was that the whooping dose of radiation needed to do any minimum containment will push past tolerability; and from then on in, young men will just continue to get killed for NO reason.

        It's great that people have social concerns. We all have social concerns, but walking into a death trap that cannot be touched or changed will not help anyone, just kill.

        Why didn't TEPCO consider the poisoning of the entire Earth, not just Japan? They are the ones who did it! Gundersen is just making an ASSESSMENT that we are reaching the point beyond which even risking lives will not be productive, just deadly.

        He is just facing reality. So, apparently, must you and I. Please don't blame the messenger.


        Report comment

        • many moons

          I'm not blaming him, it just doesn't sound logical.
          Tepco has done almost nothing to fix the 3X meltdowns, perhaps because it is unfixable. If it takes the lives of hundreds or thousands of young men to fix a meltdown then that cost should be written in to the disaster plans of a NPP.
          If you don't have at least 5,000 young lives to through at a potential disaster, then no NPP should continue.

          Lets face it, Arnie is putting some spin on this, I would love to hear the plans for the underground sarcophagus….no elaboration there. And won't many young lives be taken in that endeavor?


          Report comment

          • VanneV anne

            I thought they were advertising for workders 55 years and older. And I read somewhere that they will be importing them from other countries.


            Report comment

          • Alaskan Ice Alaskan Ice

            How about 5000 old liars to carry the water and guard the rubble?


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          • cooterboy

            many moons;
            Hundreds of thousands will die. That is the cost of war. Fukushima is a war zone. This enemy is truly a genie of magical proportions. It can kill from afar and death is slow.

            The cost of doing nothing now, will return nothing. If we are to bury our heads in the sand then hundreds of millions will die and I'm not too sure if this isn't already happening.
            There's a reason why our government is hiding the truth and it's not because of panic. How far can you run and hide from this genie?

            Read anne's messages again about the soil. Now put four buildings weighing 5,000 to 12,000 tons each and the problem becomes evident. These concrete buildings are tilting, compromised and fractured by the blasts and earthquakes.

            TEPCO had a chance of digging in the ground and try to stabilize the soil but they didn't and now it's too late to do this. Anne is right when she says the "corium tubes" need to be filled with concrete. These tubes have weakened the buildings foundation, further eroding the soil compaction. You can't put any more weight on this site. It just won't work, unless you want the entire site to slip into the ocean, with the next earthquake.

            Loosing a couple of battles doesn't mean the war is lost.
            But the cost of these battles will be unimaginable.
            Peace


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            • cooterboy

              Our government is doing something about the radiation and the effects on it's citizens. It's "Zohydro ER". A new pain killer. Approved by the FDA, due out in the spring of 2014, it contains "Zohydrocodone" ER which is like Vicoden without the buffers and is twice as strong.

              http://www.fda.gov/newsevents/newsroom/pressannouncements/ucm372287.htm

              Doctors and the FDA Review Board were quick to respond saying this is crazy to allow such a powerful drug, that's highly addictive and would be misused to enter the market. They were overruled and it was approved.

              Zohydro is manufactured by "Zogenix". Zogenix's web site states; "…leveraging technology to provide innovative solutions for unmet medical needs".
              Key word is UNMET, unknown needs, like radiation poisoning or cancer, wherein death is near and terminal from a disease.

              http://www.salem-news.com/articles/december292013/fda-cruel-twist-ms.php

              The introduction of this drug is timely to say the least. The question is, why now? It appears to me that our government wants us to be pain free while we are dying. I believe this is further evidence of a coverup that is beginning to unravel. Bit by bit the clues will add up that our government knew and knowingly withheld information from it's citizens. Denying their citizens, of the truth, seems to be a problem on capitol hill.

              Check out the links above and make up your own mind, draw your own conclusions.
              Peace,


              Report comment

      • babbo dorian babbo dorian

        In my opinión, this gentleman is the voice of nuclears.
        His wise comments at the begining of his talks convinced everyone that he is acting against nucleares but, now I see that he is one of the voices they use to make the "public" to know what they want…….
        It will allways be wise to take the valuable comments… and understand betwin línes what those criminal want us to know.
        And, at this site, there is people that defends agresively this person… and we all know what it means…..
        My best whishes to you and yours,


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      • hexagon

        I wonder if Arnie has received any threats that he has no choice but to take seriously.


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      • soern

        i give not a penny about what arnie says!!
        He was involved, building this shit up.
        And what he says is always known already.
        Let him sell soap instead as he is a good seller.


        Report comment

    • We Not They Finally

      Hope itself seems to have gotten de-molecularized at Fukushima. We can face that, or we can pretend that it hasn't happened.


      Report comment

    • VanneV anne

      Arnie looks to me like he is already dying of cancer.


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    • Funny… That's precisely the same Grand Plan the nukes devised for dealing with their deadly waste when they started us down this one way dead end street. Just leave it for the future to figure out, we can just generate more and more as if there is no tomorrow.

      Somebody will think of something someday. Or not. But by then we'll all be long dead and won't care, so it's all good…

      Phooey.


      Report comment

      • enoughalready45 enoughalready45

        @JoyB
        I think you make an excellent point about the nuclear industry not being able to come up with solutions to radioactive waste in their own lifetimes. We have 70+ years of radioactive waste with no solutions yet. I won't pretend that I know the solution to this but we should start by not making any more radioactive waste that the nuclear industry won't know what to do with.


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        • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

          Exactly, We have a rogue industry called Nuclear operating all over the planet like a bunch gangsters and they simply lie at every turn and do not fulfill any promises made.

          Time to shut them all down and if they do not cooperate, then they all need to be jailed.

          Time for the world leaders to wake up and end this Nuclear insanity worldwide. :)


          Report comment

          • nedlifromvermont

            A good job for the USNavy and Marine Corps, I would say.

            "Go you Alabama, GO!"

            peace soldiers!


            Report comment

          • "LIKE a bunch of gangsters?" C'mon, Obe. If there's one thing Fukushima should have made clear to everybody by now, it's that those nukes ARE gangsters. Have always been gangsters. In Japan they don't even try to hide it, whereas in the US and Russia (and its one-time territories) they take pains to hide the fact that it's one big money laundering operation for the mobs.


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      • There are solutions, but when you start with lies and coverups and a closed circle of 'experts', then no answer is possible.

        No one is welcome other than the 'experts' who created this mess.

        This takes out of the box thinking and creative solutions never seen before.

        The solutions and answers are out there, but will not be implemented, unless the whole organizational and political culture changes radically to be open, transparent and willing to look at creative answers from OUTSIDE the norm.. secrecy, closed minds, rigid thinking, black and white polarity; us against them.


        Report comment

        • deaddolphins simonhhh

          Why Underground Entombment At Fukushima Daiichi Won't Succeed
          By Yoichi Shimatsu
          "….Entombment of a reactor built on landfill over the seabed is therefore practically impossible. After the reactors drop into sinkholes, the meltdowns could go on for decades.

          The one possible solution to this apocalyptic scenario is the stuff that propelled Ronald Reagan into nationwide fame as host of GE Family Theater: borax. The alkali salt used in laundry powder consists of about 15 percent boron-10, the neutron-absorbing mineral used in control rods inside nuclear reactors. Boron intercepts neutrons, thereby reducing the number of fission events and thus cooling the loose uranium.

          Borax dissolves in water, meaning it can be poured into the water seeping underground through turbine rooms and the maze of broken pipes. Around the hot spots, the mineral salt will turn solid, trapping and separating uranium particles. The crystallized borax will fill the steam-created gaps in the soil, strengthening the overall weight-bearing structure. The hard angular crystals can also resist seismic movement, reducing the problem of liquefaction.

          Borax can be poured into water seeping through the turbine rooms and damaged pipes or inserted through bore holes drilled at an angle under the reactor.This mineral salt as low toxicity, making it safe for the workers, and is harmless if it leaks into the sea…."
          http://www.rense.com/general94/whyf.htm


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      • nedlifromvermont

        yes to JoyB. John Gofman reveals this attitude expressed by colleagues to him in "Irreveray."

        Unconscionable.

        Peace!


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    • SS4U SS4U

      wondering how AG arrived at the 100 year figure. Seems like a few zero's need to be added to that 100 number.


      Report comment

  • Jebus

    The solution to nuclear pollution is delusion…

    Um, I'm thinking that someone needs to point to the locations of the coriums first…


    Report comment

  • Go Flying

    Norbu, maybe you misunderstood what Arnie is saying…

    He is saying, build a dam to CONTAIN the groundwater, Cover the plant with a sarcophagus, and only then, walk away for 100 years.

    Whilst the financial and human) cost of building a dam down to the rock bed, and around the entire plant is truly staggering, the alternative of lying Japanese govt, incompetent and lying Tepco, and (unfortunately) a large percentage of the Japanese people who just want to believe that everything is ok, is no alternative at all.


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    • norbu norbu

      GO Flying Thanks, but I did not misunderstand Arnie the great. What about the coriums? No one can go near 1,2,3. They waited to long. What a mess. Remember they, tepco, lost the underground blueprints.
      Jec, I am not sure witch path? Hmmm… whatever path it is we will be wearing cbrn masks and Demeron suits.
      N


      Report comment

      • We Not They Finally

        That's Arnie Gundersen's fault? Come in out of the rain, please! He is only trying to design the most humane way of the inevitable abandonment. Gundersen didn't wait a minute on all this personally. Any foreign help has been routinely, soundly REJECTED by these monsters.


        Report comment

    • VanneV anne

      The idea might be to divert the groundwater. Even though this will be impossible, containing the groundwater is even more impossible.


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      • VanneV anne

        And it is more like, leave it for a million years. But then 100 years from now we'll all be dead, and it anyone is still left it will be their problem not ours.

        The Japanese gov't has already put a cap on spending. If they PRETEND to build something to divert the groundwater, it will be cosmetic or theater only.

        They just want to walk away and put their heads in the sand as to all the sickened and dying people, first in Japan, and then around the rest of the world.

        Arnie is just admitting the futility of nuclear technology under any circumstances.

        This technology is premeditated murder. Building even one more reactor is premeditated murder planned by serial killers. For the sake of the rest of society, the usual remedy is to put serial killers is jail forever.

        The nuclear industry must be held accountable for its actions. They must be all stripped of their possession and jailed permanently for life.


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        • norbu norbu

          Yes anne they the nuclear industry must be held accountable, and jailed forever….+ 100000000 years. Arnie is between a rock and a hard place.
          N


          Report comment

        • nedlifromvermont

          @Norbu and Anne!! I love both you guys. Love your posts. I agree with you all the time.

          But stripping Jeffrey Immelt bare and throwing nhim in jail will not accomplish much, even though I would feel some satisfaction. And Jack Welch and all the other nuclear pusher-monsters from GE, Westinghouse, TepCo. Rossatom and wherever else.

          Not gonna happen. (even tho it should).

          Everyone is trapped in a game of other people's lies, and these other people are all, or mostly, dead by now. Lewis Strauss comes to mind. Others rest uneasily in shadows.

          GE can't fess up, even with Price-Anderson laws, without triggering civil liability damage lawsuits.

          So the suits (lawyers) have the normal political process tied up in knots.

          And all our anger is pointless and useless.

          Far better to quickly pass blanket immunity laws for everyone. Then we can all agree, openly, that nuclear power was a wicked idea and that we must close down this "devil's illusion" (Bob Marley) quickly, everywhere, and cask all the "spent nuclear fuel" and save what we can, and mitigate what we can't.

          This is the way forward, 'newsers.

          I know it is unpalatable, but it could work and quickly.

          After all: Just how many European Jews were saved by the Nuremberg trials??

          These were pointless show trials.

          They should have included Prescott Bush, who supported Hitler back when it was cool to believe it Eugenics.

          Then we might have been spared the silly George H.W. Bush (cont.)


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          • nedlifromvermont

            and we might have been spared the even more incompetent George W. Bush.

            But Dick Cheney (he's fully bionic now, planning to run for Pres. in 2016, and we can expect him to rule for sixty years …) (joke)

            But then Cheney would have found a different lap poodle to hide behind while he pulled the strings.

            An empire is a dangerous thing to waste.

            If we persist and survive, we 'newsers, all the silly pro-nuclear arguments will ring hollow soon enough, to enough people.

            I told a friend last night he really should research this for himself. They are lying and covering up and not testing the food and raising the cpm limits. He has a graduate degree from Yale.

            The tuna in California tested positive for Fuku-radiation in 2011, so they stopped the testing. Bald eagles falling dead in inter-montane west. Top-of-food-chain eaters are getting sick, thank you very much.

            He admitted feeling a little queasy since he had recently enjoyed tuna sashimi.

            Go figure.

            Be patient 'newsers, and argue gently and lovingly with your less-well-informed friends and neighbors. It is only a natter of time before the nuclear/criminal cabal and pack of lies come crashing down.

            Magnanimity in victory has always proved the proper way forward.

            I mean, they love their nuclear power plants, right?

            They will have to go through their own Kuebler-Ross grieving process.

            Love out to all the 'newsers, and even to our fellow trolls.

            peace on earth. Death to Nuclear.


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      • bf9 Fitz

        Even still, if they divert the groundwater from what I understand that will have an effect on the ground (possibly sinking?) due to that river no longer supporting that clay layer, which in turn messes up foundations/spf's and then there's criticality. I'm not a geologist though.

        Japan and the international community need to get going here. Fuku 1 was a weapons facility? Wonderful, as insane as it might sound it would be advisable to give the Japanese a pass on that. Dangerous precedent but my goodness this situation needs to be mitigated to whatever is humanly possible and aim even higher than that.


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  • Jebus

    BTW,

    What path should we take, as we walk away from Fukushima for a hundred years?

    Should we take the well worn path to Rome?

    Or, should we take that overgrown, thriving, forrest, "path less travelled"?

    100 years is a long journey…


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    • We Not They Finally

      The chance that "we have a hundred years" seems to be remote, shy of some unforeseen miracle.

      I have no problem accepting the survival of the soul and reincarnation, and for the moment I'm grateful for at least that much. I just do not want me, or anyone of good heart and sound conscience, to have to be re-born back HERE. What will Earth even LOOK like?


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  • Jebus

    I wonder how much hydraulic pressure is created, by the incoming tides twice daily?

    I wonder how far that hydraulic pressure pushes seawater into fractured soil and rock at the site of Fukushima, twice daily?

    I don't have to wonder if this works in reverse, twice daily.

    I wonder if a multibillion dollar study could answer my questions…


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  • TheBigPicture TheBigPicture

    UNITED STATES DOING NOTHING . .

    U.S. West Coast getting radiated continually while government does nothing.


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    • We Not They Finally

      Actually, it's not that the United States is doing nothing. It's busily doing cover-ups and lies. Having the EPA change the "safe" levels of radiation to virtually lethal. Trying to change the definition of cancer because "cancer is over-diagnosed" (that direct from the National Cancer Institute in the NIH). Blocking any truthful accounting in the media. Letting dangerous foodstuffs in, also failing to measure radiation for what is grown here.

      You see, the U.S. is doing a lot! They would apparently rather that people be dead, than that they be "panicked."


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    • many moons

      Why is it just the west coast getting hit by radiation??….it traveled across the Pacific just to stop moving and settle on the west coast….????
      Radiation just keeps going and contaminating….the levels that kill are no different…from a lot of radiation to a tremendous amount…it all kills the same way and it's moving across all of the USA and beyond.
      Enough to kill and deform everything in
      it's path.


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  • markww markww

    Turner Radio with a Good Article Dec 28 Prepare for Radiation Cloud.

    NEWS FLASH – URGENT – December 28, 2013 11:00 PM EST — (TRN http://www.TurnerRadioNetwork.com ) — Persons residing on the west coast of North America should IMMEDIATELY begin preparing for another possible onslaught of dangerous atmospheric radiation from the Fukushima nuclear disaster site in Japan. The Tokyo Electric Power Company (TEPCO) says radioactive steam has suddenly begun emanating from previously exploded nuclear reactor building #3 at the Fukuishima disaster site in Japan. TEPCO says they do not know why this is happening and cannot go into the building to see what's happening due to damage and lethal radiation levels in that building. Experts say this could be the beginning of a “spent fuel pool criticality (meltdown)” involving up to 89 TONS of nuclear fuel burning up into the atmosphere and heading to North America. Steam photo, full details and suggested methods to protect yourself appear below.

    http://beforeitsnews.com/survival/2013/12/turner-radio-with-a-good-article-dec-28-prepare-for-radiation-cloud-2504086.html

    MARKWW


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  • Occupant Occupant

    Underground sarcophagus is the easy way out. I want the permanent and final solution. Return the land to the same or better condition than it was before the plants were installed. How about the complete removal of everything man-made within a 40km radius and after that return the are back to nature, allowing no human access to the 40km area forever.


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  • jackassrig

    Thanks Mark for your posts as this SiFi is unfolding.


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  • tsfw tsfw

    Oh please the second Gundersen says something that people don't like, they begin to question his loyalties and expertise. All he is saying is that we are at the point that he has been warning us about all along -that putting innocent people to work at Tepco is murdering them for not a lot of gain. Innocent people who are being forced to work there I'm sure– they can't keep that jig up forever. Let's not be naive and pie in the sky about this- we are all screwed. Sometimes things break to a point that all the crazy glue in the world cannot fix it and you just have to deal with it. I have not read a thing in here in 2 years that suggests that there is a fix for this ( damage control yes, but a fix no)…sure they have to keep looking for one, but until then? It could take 500 years before they have the technology to decommission the plant. You can't keep forcing people to their death which is what they have been doing. Anyone know what the status is on Daini? I heard a while ago that it wasn't in the best of shape either- how is it in comparison to Daichi, anyone?


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  • razzz razzz

    Unit 3, they were removing debris but I haven't seen pics of what has been accomplished lately. Cams are positioned to show nothing. TEPCO doesn't talk about it. The trolley beam assembly was laying across and on top of the 3's reactor where the steam keeps emerging from. Did they remove the trolley beam yet? The steam no doubt radioactive wafts in whatever direction the wind is blowing at the time. Over to workers at Unit 2, down to the ground level workers, out to sea. Uncontrolled. Actually steam is invisible, you are only seeing the condensation.

    Arnie forgot to say how to stop the water from flowing around the melts and didn't mention removing first spent fuel from 1,2&3 pools before abandoning the site. I guess the Pacific will have to suffer the ongoing consequences.

    Daiichi, another piece of earth lost forever like Chernobyl, Hanford and many other spots around the globe. Even if they entirely remove all the rubble, where do they put radioactive trash? It can only be moved one place to another, it will still be radioactive for centuries wherever the remains are.


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  • BarbToo

    I would like to know what material he proposes that this "underground sarcophagus" be built with.

    The Chernobyl Sarcophagus is built of concrete and steel … and it's failing.

    Everyone knows that concrete does not stand up well to constant water pressure. The "Big Dig" in Boston (our huge, over-priced road system is concrete, next to the ocean, and it's failing in less than 20 years.

    Japan also has the added insults of Tsunamis and earthquakes.

    I don't think there's been a material invented that would stand up to all of that for a hundred years.

    I hate to say this; but, if Obama (with no experience, but, access to scientists and resources) and Putin (with real-life experience and also access to scientists and resources) had stepped in IMMEDIATELY before this thing got so out-of-hand, we might have been able to do something.

    Now, I think it's too late. Animals all over the Pacific Ocean are dying off in masses. The Pacific Ocean does not stay in a 'bowl'. It feeds to other oceans and waters worldwide.

    So sad …


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  • There is a certain sense of destiny in what Arnie is saying. Think about it. Once his suggestion becomes integrated into the public discourse, such that it is here at Enenews, it becomes possible to tally the entire picture of damage due to nuclear's broken promises and cover ups.

    There is some value in this for those who want to know the whole truth about this unmitigated disaster, such as where the coriums are, and how much plutonium is now in our environment. Regardless of what ultimately happens, imagining a future as Arnie has presented it, is more than we had yesterday. I'd say it's a development that will cause nuclear to squirm. Let them squirm.


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  • many moons

    I think once that’s accomplished, there’s no need to decommission these power plants and turn them back to the ground they are in.

    There is no need to decommission these power plants…..would it really be possible to decommission these power plants????

    turn them back to the ground??? they are in the ground and moving God knows where…..


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  • Tiza Tiza

    Did anyone see this at NETC forum, NEWS FLASH — Urgent…

    http://www.turnerradionetwork.com/news/146-mjt

    It's dated 12/28, though.


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  • Questionit

    Arnie is working for govt/industry interests in the US on the FUKU situation. He has always minimized the current damage being done to the US while pointing to the immediate damage being done in some ways to Japan. Why this incompetent memo from Arnie? Simple, very highly radiated groundwater is about to hit the ocean. So radioactive that others will measure it in the ocean and blow the horns, so radioactive that Arnie's and Tepco's claims that the coriums are within the concrete containment structure (not even on the floor) will be very difficult to defend.

    That then leads to public knowledge that the US west coast and all its fish and products are to be too contaminated live in or eat from if you have a choice. And public opinion will further turn from nuclear technologies. And it snowballs from there.

    Those Arnie serves want you to believe the coriums are not in the ground and then to bury it in dirt – out of sight out of mind. If Arnie fools you like this you will believe the main danger has passed if they fill the basement with concrete, you will believe the coriums are encased in concrete and isolated. When in fact the coriums will be deep in the ground and the disaster is non stop.

    The activist will discover the high contamination getting into the ocean anyway, of course. But now Arnie/They will have points to argue from while they deny what is ongoing, as they buy time. Not to deny damage to Japan but predictions of increased damage to the west…


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  • Tiza Tiza

    Check this out, and I was gone all day yesterday, pretty much, so this may be old news. You'll have to go to the site to finish it in the link that I gave up above.

    ** NEWS FLASH — URGENT ** STEAM SUDDENLY EMANATING FROM FUKUSHIMA REACTOR # 3 – WEST COAST OF NORTH AMERICA SHOULD BEGIN PREPARATIONS FOR POSSIBLE RADIATION CLOUD WITHIN 3 TO 5 DAYS Print
    Saturday, 28 December 2013 22:55

    Repost This

    NEWS FLASH – URGENT – December 28, 2013 11:00 PM EST — (TRN http://www.TurnerRadioNetwork.com ) — Persons residing on the west coast of North America should IMMEDIATELY begin preparing for another possible onslaught of dangerous atmospheric radiation from the Fukushima nuclear disaster site in Japan. The Tokyo Electric Power Company (TEPCO) says radioactive steam has suddenly begun emanating from previously exploded nuclear reactor building #3 at the Fukuishima disaster site in Japan. TEPCO says they do not know why this is happening and cannot go into the building to see what's happening due to damage and lethal radiation levels in that building. Experts say this could be the beginning of a "spent fuel pool criticality (meltdown)" involving up to 89 TONS of nuclear fuel burning up into the atmosphere and heading to North America. Steam photo, full details and suggested methods to protect yourself appear below.

    On December 28, 2013, the Tokyo Electric Power Company (TEPCO) admitted steam was seen billowing out of reactor building #3, saying the steam…


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    • VanneV anne

      Do you know where they got their photos and diagrams? The photo has to be from 2011, not 2013. The structure of #3 has been leveled off since the photo with steam was taken. The diagram has got the labels on the SFP and the refueling bay (?equipment pool) reversed.


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      • Tiza Tiza

        anne,

        No, I was at NETC, then looked at their forum and saw that link on there where someone else posted Urgent….


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      • Questionit

        Anne, I did not try to verify the photo. But if they used an old photo for effect but the steam is currently occurring is the date of the photo the issue? (Although that should be pointed out to prompt further questioning of the info.)

        On Dec 28, 2013 or thereabouts did TEPCO admit steam is coming up from reactor 3. If so is that significant info., is there a danger of something having gone critical or that increased radiation is being released.


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      • VanneV anne

        Tiza, I'm mistaken about the diagram. The SFP is deeper, but has racks of spent fuel at the bottom. So their diagram is OK.

        But I still think photo of the steam is from 2011. However, I have no doubt that we should all be prepared. I wish the EPA hadn't taken down the monitors near me. They are probably working on Unit #3, #4, #5, and #6 at least. TEPCO takes down the webcams or reloops an old tape when there is something there they don't want anyone to see. And there is not the states secrets act, and warning to the media to not fly overhead. So there is obviously action there they don't want anyone to see.


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    • PeterC

      So if this is the Unit#3 Spent Fuel Pool, with some 180,000 Lbs of MOX fuel, and it is fissioning – vapourizing/aerosolizing MOX particles…. well that's enough poison air for all…

      Seems that this could be a headline story at Enenews.

      Of course, you got to wonder, what happens when the North American food/energy/travel/etc systems shut down.

      Not good… not good at all. Peace.


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    • Au Au

      Let's go look a netc.com- Japan and look at historical charts (members). I'm going through them one at a time now. It looks ok at a glance, but I see one monitor is off the charts, one is turned off east of Fuku, etc…

      It'll take a bit of time to go through them all.


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  • Questionit

    Engineering problems with this plan by Arnie are termendous. First off Arnie is a deceiver and is working against you.
    Others should talk about what happens to the various radioactive materials if you just bury them in the ground. Arnie says the buildings are now too hot to work around. So they will bury the fuel rods that remain and stop removing them? (Must be a problem happening so now they change the plan and just bury them.)

    The buildings are on mat foundations due to bedrock being too deep and the soils (wet sand) being too unstable for regular spread footings. The sand liquified during the EQ and the poorly designed building settled a large amount. The soils did not recompact as seen by continued settling. Soils are poorly compacted unstable granular material.

    Shallow groundwater runs just under and around the buildings. This groundwater appears to extend to a great depth and moves to the ocean.

    For integrity if you build a tub under the building it must have rebar, lots of rebar.

    So, lots of wells to lower the water table well below the buildings, Then sheetpiles around the building to hold the sand back as you dig and shore it down to "something" so you can dig around and under it in sections so you can pour deep reinforced concrete in sections. Once away from the edge of the building it really gets complicated (LOL).

    Arnie plans to just dump concrete into the basement and backfill it.

    Besides, the coriums are deep below the building or…


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  • Tiza Tiza

    anne,

    Scroll down here and look at the subjects. It's where I found it.

    https://www.netc.com/bb/viewforum.php?f=22

    I can't post there because I'm not a member yet. Plan to be.


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  • Why so hard on Arnie, Questionit? Mainstream media isnt even covering this. Whether the coriums are on the floor or eaten through the floor is a mute point as its clear radiated coolant is leaking into the groundwater and the Pacific. And has been since 311 as admitted by Tepco. Right now mainstream media is deciding what was the most newsworthy story of 2013. Up here in Canada is a toss up between crack smoking Rob Ford and scandal plagued senator Mike Duffy. Radiated Pacific Wild Salmon? Not so much. Not sure about USA. Obummer couldnt get his Syria war so I dont know what he will use to distract the people. Arnie is the only one within the nuclear industry criticizing Fukushima. You might ask yourself who is paying mainstream media to not report Fukushima. The dismantling of this Shitshow economic farce would be most welcome for me and would start with Japan having to finance a true mitigation program to dam the underground river and stop three melted nuclear cores from disolving into the Pacific. Get angry with the Bankster Fraudsters who would save their money machine economy rather then ensure a healthy planet.
    Try any way you can to not support this shitshow and vote with your wallet. Or criticize the only voice of knowlege and sanity we have in America that criticizes the handling of the triple meltdown but to what end?


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    • VanneV anne

      "The only voice of knowledge and sanity??????" There are other nuclear engineers speaking out. And walking away? Wasn't the argument a month ago that walking away would set off a chain reaction of explosions of the rest of the dozens of nuclear reactors in Japan?

      Wouldn't silence be the better part of wisdom? Better than advising walking away for 100 years. And in the US, walking away and leaving the mess not cleaned up seems to be the solution for all nuclear waste. In other words, there is no solution at all.

      Why not just say that there is no solution and that all nuclear power plants should be shut down immediately and no other built every again.

      Other countries have walked away from all nuclear energy forever. If Arnie can't say this over and over again, he is just an appeaser like Neville Chamberlain.


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    • VanneV anne

      Dr. Gofman is a real scientist.
      Dr. Sternglass is a real scientist.
      Dr. Jeanette Sherman is a real scientist.
      Dr. Holger Strohm is a real scientist.
      Dr. Rosalie Bertells is a real scientist.
      Dr. Chris Busty is a real scientist.
      Dr. Helen Caldicott is a real scientist.

      Why can't Arnie join them. It isn't for scientific reasons.


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      • Jebus

        I'm of the opinion that he doesn't need to prove anything to me.

        Just telling the amount of truth that he has already, is enough to see that it doesn't matter where he stands…

        I do realize that anything he say's will affect a consulting business…


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        • VanneV anne

          Jebus, Are you in agreement with Arnie's statement on this thread? That is the real question on this thread.

          “We need an underground sarcophagus to prevent the groundwater from entering the Fukushima reactors. I think once that’s accomplished, there’s no need to decommission these power plants and turn them back to the ground they are in….
          “It’s time to contain the groundwater, cover-up that site, and walk away for 100 years….
          “The best thing for the Japanese to do is to admit that they’re going to have to live with radioactive rubble at the Fukushima site for over 100 years….”

          Is this your position also? Isn't he asking everyone to accept the endless radioactive contamination from Fukushima? Won't covering up Fukushima be merely cosmetic? As usual, the elite say the opposite of the truth. A sarcophagus won't solve the problem. It is just the cheapest and most Hollywoodish answer to the problem.


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          • VanneV anne

            Cover up with a sarcophagus, keep growing food in contaminated ground, keep manufacturing cars and other goods that are severely contaminated with radionucludes, and ship those goods around the world. Keep building nuclear reactors around the world. Isn't this what the nuclear industry wants?

            Go back to selling and poisoning people with radioactive fish, because there is a sarcophagus that is doing nothing but allow the Olympics to go on. On a pro-Nuke site they brag about all the wonderful LARGE vegetables grown around Chernobyl.

            Why should we care if the poor nations don't like it if they don't get nuclear reactors and weapons? What kind of insanity is this?


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            • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

              Like I said…we humans are all bat-shit crazy. There is just no way around it.

              Pretty sure insanity is = the same thing. :(


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            • But wait a minute; the IAEA says all food is safe in japan, and all food should be irradiated.

              As of 30 May 2013, more than 460,000 samples have
              been reported by the authorities in Japan for over 500
              types of foodstuffs. Results indicate that less than 1% of samples reported per month in 2013 are exceeding the
              Japanese standard limits for radioactive caesium in foods.
              http://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/Publications/PDF/Newsletters/FEP-16-2.pdf

              (sarc)


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            • Spot on Anne +100000

              PostPlumeOlypics2020Gate


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            • Alaskan Ice Alaskan Ice

              @Anne: "Why should we care if the poor nations don't like it if they don't get nuclear reactors and weapons? What kind of insanity is this?"

              Um, because they're going to do it anyway:

              (1) once our influence recedes, or

              (2) once they figure out that they're being underpaid with rigged oil and commodity pricing, and then become rich nations themselves, or

              (3) once our derivatives and ZIRP system backstopping those price controls falters and we become poor.

              That's why we should care if "poor" nations care that they can't build plants and weapons. That's why they're not going to trust the newly popular no-nukes meme, right on the eve of their ability to get them.

              This seems like a nuclear-have nation "have your cake and eat it too" gambit that will sound to the third world a lot like "let them eat cake." And I would argue won't work without some comprehensive reforms on nuclear armaments, commodity pricing, and banking, worldwide. Right now I can't see further.

              Sadly, I believe it has always been the truth that nuclear power plants are a greater target and disaster risk to any nation that builds them.

              Forget about 19 Saudis, angry that their leaders are selling their birthright for 5 cents on the dollar to the west, flying planes into buildings. . . 600 Saudis in well trained and well armed 4 man teams could assault and scuttle all our reactors and dissolve our Nation. Is homeland security guarding nuclear power plants, or is it a…


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          • Jebus

            Pretty sure Arnies opinion won't matter in the long term.

            I really think the sarcophagus idea is more about containment, not walking away.

            There is so much more to this Fukushima megadisaster, than wondering what Arnie really means when he makes a statement.

            It's just another part…


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      • Tiza Tiza

        anne,

        I watched a video which had Dr. John Gofman, I think it was, the other day, and I think that he passed away several years ago. Can't remember the year now, but it was 2000 something. Maybe '9 or '10, can't remember.


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        • VanneV anne

          I was using "is" in the sense that his writings and spirit are still with us.


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          • Tiza Tiza

            obewan,

            Thanks! He seems like an interesting man from the video that I saw of him, extremely knowledgeable, etc. He stated in the video that I saw that about 50 percent of breast cancers were caused by low-level,low-dose radiation in our environment. I really do believe this, too. I know many are genetic, though, as I have a good friend who had a twin sister that had breast cancer, and my friend carried the gene. So she got the surgery many years back to have her breasts removed and have the implants. She's fine so far. This has been well over 20 years ago.

            My husband had testicular cancer, and he had to have a testicle removed back in 1991. He did have radiation treatments after that, but he received a lower dose than most people who have cancer radiation treatments. His was just a safeguard measure, or so it was called. However, since he had those treatments, he has had problems with swallowing for many years. We know that it's from those minor treatments, even though they were assumed to be minor dose!

            My husband's oldest sister had done radiation treatments on others for many years. She's retired now. But even she said they were extremely low dose that my husband, her brother, had received.

            And to be honest with you, we're all going to die at sometime or another, it's just that we don't want to be puking up blood, sweating blood, or whatever happens to someone when exposed to high levels of radiation. Nor do we wish to be tortured!


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    • humptydumpty

      @Mark: "Whether the coriums are on the floor or eaten through the floor is a mute point as its clear radiated coolant is leaking into the groundwater and the Pacific."

      I don't think you grasp the true situation. The melted-through coriums are one of the main issues here (in addition to the exposed/damaged fuel assemblies), and the notion of containment is the real moot point. As I understand it, the "coolant" water is a minor component that TEPCO has used as an excuse for releasing horrendous rads. AFAIK it is the groundwater that is leaking into and under the plant through the coriums then into the ocean, which is causing the worst contamination.


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    • flatsville

      Those of you mouthing " No More Nuclear Reactors" might want to donate to a group lobbying to actually stop that if you haven't.

      DOE grant award recently issued.

      The new "fashion" trend in reactors is getting traction. Small Module Reactors Coming to a Neighborhood Near You.


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  • Tiza Tiza

    Sorry, it was 2007:

    John Gofman – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    John William Gofman (September 21, 1918 – August 15, 2007) was an American scientist and advocate. He was Professor Emeritus of Molecular and Cell Biology at University of California at Berkeley. Some of his early work was on the Manhattan Project, and he shares patents on the fissionability


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  • Socrates

    Consulting experts hire out. I hire such experts all the time. I make sure in a consultation what their opinion is in advance of declaring that expert. Otherwise, I seek a more favorable witness.

    Bectel or Misuishi Heavy Industries – the government of Japan….


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  • Ontological Ontological

    I think they better give them all a decaf "sorry coffee guy" If they had bothered to make a containment for the corium, what little may be left that has not vaporized, to begin with a week after the 12 hour event of melt through. Then they may have been able. I have to wonder about the logic of attempting to get near corium that has soaked for years in a swamp. Get real. I Lived in Burlington Vermont 35 years in the area. I never was too impressed with this guy when they forced Vermont Yankee and Seabrook on New England. Bernie Sanders was always a cool dude however.
    I doubt after a 3 year swamp soaking the corium is anything more than very hot mashed taters n gravy. 4 and 20 Dodo bird pie anyone? To "cover" them is ridiculous, they will leak and the problem will be even worse after smucking around building an ummm Cover? A sewer system perhaps. I am sure all who think this way needs another stress pill and a nap.


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    • Ontological Ontological

      Mankind could have used Norwegian mole machine tunnel diggers. Divert the mountainside groundwater around the plant. Then when any corium is located by a robotic mole(if one can survive this), perhaps freeze it in place, to isolate with zeolite, & cement. Oh wait this should have taken place in the FIRST 6 months of this disaster. Would have mopped up most of it.

      Which ELitE will finance this project??

      Next burn fuel assemblies harmlessly in the photosphere of the Sun. Decommission carefully the rest of the Plutonium producing "plants" End of problem globally inside 50 years.

      The current plan is to burry any waste the world will pay the US govt. to "dispose" spent fuel etc. like cat turds in the sand box of Mercury Nevada. After I might add, they sit in place for 40 or 50 more years, in rickety corrosion ravished fuel pools.


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  • VanneV anne

    The problem is the pro-Nukers like Rod Adams criticize Arni because they would like to get rid of any opposition.

    And, on the other hand, the anti-Nukers find positions on Arnie's part which are pro-Nuke. For example, when he was answering questions in Japan and said that it didn't matter that Unit #3 had plutonium in the fuel (i.e., was pluterman), and obviously the use of MOX fuel matters a great deal.

    Now, when he talks about an underground sarcophagus almost 3 years after the fact, and talks about just covering it up and abandoning the site, when a month or two ago, it was let's get an international team of experts on the fuel removal problem, there ought to be an explanation for the sea change.

    What has gone wrong with the Unit #4 fuel removal plan? Why the cover-up (meant in more than one way)? Is the steam coming from unit #3 or unit #4 or from the Common Spent Fuel Pool? There was no way they could put damaged spent fuel into the Common Spent Fuel Pool without having new criticalities in the CSFP. Are we even seeing up to date videos from Fukushima Daiichi? What about Fukushima Daini, Tokai NPP, Onagawa NPP, Higashidori NPP. Tokai nuclear fuel reprocessing plant, and Rokkasho nuclear fuel reprocessing plant? When there is no transparency, there is just deception.


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    • Angela_R

      My apologies if this has been previously drawn to poster's attention

      Re: problems at other nuclear sites:
      Perhaps if one looks at the ongoing decommissioning of Hanford in the U.S. where most of the reactors were shutdown between 1964-1971, the difficulties become more apparent.

      Details of this ongoing expensive decommissioning process are available online. http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanford_Site and the recent opinion piece of 24th December 2013 in the Seattle Times, http://seattletimes.com/html/opinion/2022520609_tomcarpenteropedhanfordwaste25xml.html, give a glimpse into the enormity of the problems encountered, the huge monetary outlays and yet failures in the process are still being discovered. The tanks currently at Hanford contain two-thirds of the nations high-level nuclear waste, or 56 million gallons. About 70 of these tanks, built in the 1950s and '60s, have leaked at least one million gallons of high-level radioactive waste into Washington's soil and groundwater.

      I note Anne that you have listed some of the plants experiencing difficulties; there are others. Closing 'shop' does not finish the problems, they have been ongoing for years at Hanford.

      Decades ago Albert Einstein issued a warning…blinkered eyes avoided facing reality. They expanded into nuclear reactors


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      • humptydumpty

        Huge monetary outlays? How about the $355 billion that's been proposed by Obummer in the 2014 U.S. budget to upgrade the nuclear arsenal? That would go a long way toward decommissioning these stinkers.


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        • Angela_R

          A good suggestion humptydumpty; Use the allocated $35.5 billion for remedial work and scientific investigation into solutions for nuclear waste ( think the $355 billion is the intended program for the upgrade of the nuclear arsenal over the next decade.) But it appears the intention is to create more nuclear waste. Or do they intend firing these weapons?

          Currently Hanford has 11,000 workers engaged for cleanup and expends $2 billion annually.


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    • Very good questions about plant status Anne


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  • PeterC

    Deception…

    I wonder about that… a lot.

    I watch NFL. West coast games, everyone seems to be ok.

    Radiation???

    Especially Fukushima, I want real time satellite & air video.

    However, I do have the recent Tepco pic files release, also I do have the NRC Legal Transcripts, and I do have Tepco's recent 1,2 & 3 meltdown admission supported by the Swiss report, and of course there is the animal/sealife dieoff reports. This all seems real…

    Still I wonder about deception…


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  • unincredulous unincredulous

    I think Arnie Gunderson is right. He is not saying put a sarcophagus over it, like the sarcophagus at Chernobyl. He is saying put one underground. He is talking about probably the biggest project the world has ever seen. Then, put a Chernobyl sarcophagus over the thing. Use only the best and brightest and most competent engineers, builders, etc on it.

    Then, spend every penny of the worlds GDP, that is not necessary to support people, into building a rail gun to launch the the spent fuel into space in a manner that leaves no possible way to have an accidental atmospheric dispersal. Also, the biggest project the world has ever attempted.

    Over the next 100 years, work on technology improvement and shutting down nuclear plants.

    Gives us all something to do besides watch American Idol and watch porn, and make war. Duh


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    • VanneV anne

      The ground will not hold up the weight of a sarcophagus. The buildings have already sunk unevenly.

      There is so much secrecy and lack of transparency, they can say they put a sarcophagus under it, but the corii have already sunk so deep, there is no way to dig that deep. And the corii just go through concrete anyway.

      I read somewhere that they would have to use stainless steel, better than that used in the reactors which were breached. And it would have to be a box with a bottom and would cost many trillions of dollars.


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    • VanneV anne

      And any covering over it is going to keep leaking radiation. The radiation will increase for at least 250,000 years and last millions of years.


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    • many moons

      your plan sounds interesting but it's a long way from where FUku is at right now….They are enslaving the homeless….they have been penny pinching from the start…..
      I remember at the beginning they couldn't supply the workers with proper protection, saying that there just wasn't enough meters etc. to go around…..I guess they were on a limited budget from the beginning of this disaster….don't think they are planning on throwing any big money at this….cheaper for it to seep and leak to destinations unknown.


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  • Maybe they got to Arnie, AGAIN. Put some kiddie porn on his computer and told him….this is how it is going to be…the new game plan for you to promote.

    This is the problem of NSA spying, overall government complicit actions… anyone can be taken down.


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  • I know Gunderson was advocating a dam to divert the groundwater over a year ago. Still dont see the point of criticizing him . If what he says should happen isnt enough, fine but what they are doing is much less then what Arnie is advocating. So whats to gain by criticizing him? What Alaskan Ice said above is key. This is more then a bad way to produce power. A nuclear power plant produces plutonium to make bombs. As such nuclear power becomes part of a strategy of war. A good reason why both China, Russia and USA say very little about Fukushima. As we can all agree that radiated groundwater is flowing into the sea from Fukushima doesnt what Arnie says make sense? Block the groundwater from entering the site would be sensible although costly mitigation. But all this arguing amongst a group of anti-nukes who are allaware of the triple meltdown and the threat it represents is also very normal for human beings.
    Just more proof Obewan is indeed very wise and has the power of the Force firmly in his hand when he states us humans are all bat shit crazy. Peace all.


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    • humptydumpty

      Arnie advocated that dam idea right after the initial blast, and he was right. He knew TEPCO was lying about many things, but he was bamboozled by the R4 fuel rod removal cherade. I don't blame him for saying "remove TEPCO" but he should have seen through it. He should now be insisting they locate the coriums first. Only then could any plans be made to try to "contain" them. I no longer consider him to be an expert.


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  • Alaskan Ice Alaskan Ice

    Arnie, when Vermonters walk away from something, don't they just throw a blue tarp over it?


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  • Nick

    The best we can do is admit that there is no solution. We can slow down the releases but so much is in the biosphere already leading me to conclude that folks need to face reality.

    It sucks.

    Thanks nuclear. Thanks for the memories.

    May all of us have a few bright moments in the year ahead.

    Aloha


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  • To the stunted soul crowd, we are just slaves to die for their benefit.

    Fukushima researcher and blogger since March 2011.

    http://dailymessenger.blogspot.com/


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  • Assuming…

    IF a dam could be made and multiple sarcophagus' applied.
    How long would that take?

    How much damage has already been done that cannot be reversed?

    3 years, 3 melted cores, Fallout spreading and accumulating.

    How much more damage and suffering is to come?

    IMO – 100 years is a made-up 'pie in the sky' underestimate.

    Pie in the sky (song):
    [excerpt]
    You will eat, bye and bye
    In that glorious land above the sky
    Work and pray, live on hay
    You'll get pie in the sky when you die

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Preacher_and_the_Slave


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  • I have grave concerns about Arnie…I know of the satanic network operates. They get someone out front right away to be point for controlled opposition. Arnie's comments seem often to be red-herrings and topic changers to the real issues of the day. That disturbs me. Now, unless I see rational critical thinking support of anything he has to say, I flat-out ignore it. We need more people like us…doing our part to wake the people up to what is and what will be. Without youtube videos that get adsense accounts. A sure sign of vetting by the network.

    If they work for the government or any business dependent upon same, expect lies and obsfucation.

    Fukushima researcher since 3-11-11
    http://dailymessenger.blogspot.com/


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  • pjrsullivan

    While building the nuclear industry and installing these horrible menaces in our midst, oftentimes it is claimed that greed was what brought them in. If the actual cost to produce electricity per kw is 5 to 8 times more than other methods to generate electricity, might that not indicate that there must be something more to the story here?

    Might the plan all along not have been to harm the human race with this technology of genocide? Might the bankers merely have incentivized the industry to bring those in search of profits, to drive the building of this hideous technology?

    As to the refusal to accept help to shut this waste burner machine down in the early days, rather than a face saving measure, could that merely be a convenient cover for a well laid plot to poison on out our environment permanently?

    Might attaching our need for electricity have really been a sly cover to bring nuclear waste genocide into our world?

    Does it not seem credible that we have been seriously gamed out of our world here with nuclear blast and nuclear waste?

    Is it not widely known that Hitachi-GE is not operated by Japanese but by hybrid Judee shell people? Is it not understood that they have a mission to exterminate us all?


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    • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

      Pretty sure it was simply laymen making poor decisions based on well inserted/forced fear and then the promise of it all. Hood winked/sold crap by the dream of cheap electricity without all the facts or education necessary/required to make such decisions. For the scientists it was a windfall of profits wrapped up in red white and blue and American pie until you die. All while the laymen thought all their prayers have/were answered. :(

      Unending streams of tax money for the DOD and military complex promoting jobs/investments for these people for eons into the future. The amount of money flowing was incredible with absolutely no responsibility right at the start guaranteed by legal word craft. Rate payers/tax payers doling out massive amounts of money to give themselves unknowingly cancer in the future and most of it shoved down their throats in secret. A promise that our smartness in the future will/would save our created problems of today. Fallacy!

      The primal instincts kicked in and the power government insider trading party moved full tilt forward and now we will all certainly face extinction by our own lack of combined smartness.

      But then maybe it was all planned long ago to exterminate and depopulate the planet based on those progressive thoughts/pushed/promoted in the 1900's. :(


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  • Cisco Cisco

    "Fukushima Radiation Ten Times More than From All Nuclear Tests Combined"…By: Washingtons_Blog
    Dec 29, 2013 – 12:54 PM GMT

    http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article43766.html


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  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    Google Trends shows more and more Japanese searching the words “Heart” and “Hurt”

    Dec 30 2013

    http://fukushima-diary.com/2013/12/google-trends-shows-more-and-more-japanese-searching-the-words-heart-and-hurt/


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  • Dr. John Gofman M.D, Ph.D -There Is No Safe Dose Of Radiation, Tritium Is Hazardous To Health; via @AGreenRoad
    http://agreenroad.blogspot.com/2013/12/dr-john-gofman-md-phd-there-is-no-safe.html

    Does this still apply?

    Arnie Gunderson, Fairewinds Associates; Fuel Pool Failures at Fukushima Confirmed; via @AGreenRoad
    http://agreenroad.blogspot.com/2013/07/arnie-gunderson-fairewinds-associates.html


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  • Sickputer

    SP Blast from past..the Enenews archives:

    "I agree with you Mungo… The world as "we knew it" is indeed changed. However, "we" are not the sheeple. They are like the carefree radioactive wild boars munching away on hot truffles without a care in the world. Naked apes happily dying faster than before from eating poor choices of radioactive food and liquids.

    The one or two mega nuclear disasters to come will kill those naive humans so much faster they will experience a knowledge breakthrough (shortly before they croak). The people in Japan (40% and growing by my estimate) already have reached this state of awareness.

    Less than 1% in America unfortunately have reached this epiphany of seeing the global danger. This does help survival odds for the 1% who face little competition or inflationary prices for the cleaner foodstuffs.

    With proper food choices your family may survive Fukushima and live lengthy lifespans IF you are 5,000 miles away. But all bets are off if the plant mushrooms to 100 times current emissions or another megaplex goes belly up."

    http://enenews.com/will-point-throwing-concrete-top-fukushima-reactors-coming-300-500-years-gundersen-video

    SP 12-31-13: As a tribute to Halsey's radio officer during the 1944 Battle of Leyte Gulf: "Where is, repeat, where is Task Force Thirty Four?…The World Wonders."

    Where indeed is Fukushima Task Force 311?

    Where has Whoopie gone? The World Wonders! *;-) Loved your tireless efforts.


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  • DisasterInterpretationDissorder DisasterInterpretationDissorder

    Since it seems ENENews is becoming the international thinkthank our governments refused so far to put togheter , should we not have acces to maps of the underground rivers ?
    If we have to figure out where to dig a shortcut to the ocean ?


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    • Sickputer

      Yes, the regulars here are an Internet phenomena…perhaps we could be called a digital nuclear think-tank…for our own friends and families and anyone else who cares to come along for the ride with our ideas ("Come with me if you want to live").

      Many of our family members view us as obsessed, but it's a stink eye badge I wear with pride personally.

      Yet,it is doubtful we have any effect to alter Big Brother's grand schemes to cover up the news about Fukushima Daiichi. Not yet anyway.

      We are a tiny thorn in their side and some of the Dr. and Nuclear General/Admiral Frankensteins would love to put the BB rat cage on our faces.

      But they prefer to ignore our comments and advice unless they can take credit for it themselves. Love you BB! (not)

      They are not adverse to taking precautions for their own families though, much like the Kodak executives who blackmailed the AEC into providing critical fallout warning alerts. We also had accounts in 2011 on Enenews from a poster who knew pioneer nuclear scientists and noted they avoided strontium-rich foods in public restaurants.

      Cautious folks for the most part..but Robert Oppenheimer died of throat cancer at age 62 in 1967 (attributed to cigarettes, but we can draw other conclusions). Marie Curie herself denied to the bitter end that radiation was killing her. Her daughters also succumbed to radiation.


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  • elizabeth01234

    HI,
    I am new on this forum. I want to submit idea what we can do to push Japan/Tepco/nuclear Mafia to start to SERIOUS clean up.
    It is very simple. If person from Japan send me letter with poison and I will die, this person will go to jail and my family can sue big money because of loss.
    If they send us, because of their action Tepco/Japan government who agree for settle nuclear plant on seismic area/tsunami historically area they are on the hook for all dead here and for the loss of health as well.

    What to do :
    Find law firm and nuclear scientists like Bill Busby-or any who know how to prove in court that person died/children mutated/loss of health because of raised radioactivity of area. Or just because your garden where you grow food has raised radiation.

    Do cases in bulks. Put on-line lists for every damage : list for newborn still, list for lung cancer, list for mutated kids, list for soil contamination, list for fishermen who fish radiated fish and cant sell it, list for thyroid cancer. Everyone who thinks that has damages of this or that kind will sign for adequate list.

    Then put all peoples in bulks and prepare cases to sue : Tepco/Japan Government/GE/Nuclear safety organisations who give licences. Sue them really big.

    Believe me, then this fake theatre of doing nothing for 1000 days, because Japan/Tepco/ Nuclear Mafia DON'T WANT TO SHOW TO WORLD HOW DANGEROUS NUCLEAR POWER IT IS AND ACT AS NOTHING HAPPEN AND KEEP IT QUIET…it will finish very…


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  • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

    Sound Great! Go for it! :)


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