Published: March 7th, 2012 at 2:57 pm ET
|
Title: In Historic Vote, Vermont Poised to Shut Down Lone Nuclear Reactor
Source: Democracy Now via Fairewinds
Upload Date: Feb 25, 2012
Emphasis Added
AMY GOODMAN: [...] Arnie Gundersen, your own background, how you came to be a whistleblower? You’re a nuclear engineer. You worked in Connecticut?
ARNIE GUNDERSEN: Yeah, I had — I have a bachelor’s and a master’s in nuclear. I was a licensed reactor operator, was a senior vice president of a nuclear firm. And I discovered some license violations. This is twenty years ago. I told the president about them, president of the company, and he fired me. I then contacted John Glenn and my local senator, Senator John Glenn, about the license violations. And the Nuclear Regulatory Commission came in and found no violations. John Glenn then had the inspector general come in, and they found seven violations and found that the Nuclear Regulatory Commission had been taking illegal gratuities from my employer.
Didn’t stop there, though. I was sued for a million-and-a-half dollars by my employer, because I was slandering their reputation by writing to John Glenn. It went on for six years. And at the end, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission refused to do anything, despite what’s called a SLAPP suit, a strategic litigation against public participation. The net result of that was that we, my wife and I, took an out-of-court settlement, because the litigation would have continued on for another five years, and we got on with our lives. And I became a nuclear watchdog. And we moved from Connecticut to Vermont.
AMY GOODMAN: And here you now have become a, well, well-known nuclear consultant, executive member of the oversight panel and consultant to the Vermont legislature. When you were in Connecticut, you started to receive harassing calls as you were speaking out against the power plant there?
ARNIE GUNDERSEN: That’s — yes, that’s true. It was harassing calls, we were followed, there was private investigators that delved into our personal records. It was not a nice time. Worse, though, was the million-and-a-half-dollar lawsuit against us that ruined our credit. Our house was foreclosed on, and there was bankruptcy. It was literally designed to crush us. And it didn’t work.
AMY GOODMAN: And you were sued again by? You were sued by?
ARNIE GUNDERSEN: Oh, I was sued by the company I worked for, Nuclear Energy Services. They were the licensee, and I was the senior vice president there. And their claim was that I had defamed their reputation by talking about the license violations. And, of course, you know, Senator Glenn and his subcommittee clearly proved that I was right and that the NRC was taking illegal gratuities, so the — but it didn’t stop the process, because the Nuclear Regulatory Commission refused to get involved. [...]
Read the report here
Published: March 7th, 2012 at 2:57 pm ET
|
sending...
I think this interview points to why Arnie Gunderson has been so careful about what he has stated publicly.
The personal consequences for whistle-blowing can be huge.
Report Comment
I'd put the word "fatal" in for "huge". Hopefully Arnie's well known enough that his disappearance would create too many ripples. Hopefully.
Report Comment
It would be great to see more or another of his colleagues beside him. He is distinctly alone in a sense. I hold appreciation for everything he has helped me better understand with this disaster.
Report Comment
I just hope and pray that he doesn't end up like Matt Simmons did…
(
Report Comment
Matt Simmons and Arnie Gunderson
To this day I wonder and strongly suspect that Matt Simmons was executed.
I admit to writing Arnie Gunderson and telling him to watch out because of Simmons untimely and strangely reported death.
I didn't know that whistle-blowers actually get killed in the US, but Simmons' death raised plenty of questions and I've since learned of others who had untimely deaths…
Report Comment
Gunderson and Simmons are two entirely different animals.
Matt was a big roller with immense influence.
His musings in mainstream media, all part of a bigger business strategy he had been establishing are far different than Arnies long established role as "whistleblower"
Simmons was one that even I was convinced his death was related to the story was he pursuing, Gunderson, at least to date, has not presented anywhere near the potential threat Simmons could have packed.
Uncle Arnie is good and safe all, no worries, there.However he is well positioned to change all that if his conscious gets the better of him and he starts laying down the hammer.
Report Comment
Interesting analysis Kevin
I think I agree…
Report Comment
Thanks, I think!
lol
Report Comment
@majia–There are many. And let's not forget perhaps the most famous nuclear one, a person who had no upstanding clout in the society, Karen Silkwood, an easy hit for these criminals.
This is why I have questioned those who have put Arnie down. His struggle is very difficult, yet he goes on trying, speaking the truth as much as possible. Where are some other brave scientists to stand beside him? That would be terrific. That is what is needed. Calling scientists to tell the truth!
Report Comment
Whistleblowers and others who are "inconvenient" to the PTB get killed all the time, most are made to look like accidents or natural causes:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/52340939/Commander-X-Swartz-Strange-and-Unexplainable-Deaths-at-the-Hands-of-the-Secret-Government-Dead-Men-Tell-No-Tales-2005
Report Comment
"It has always been difficult for a democracy to return to democracy after aprolonged period of dictatorship that always comes with war. Few peopleremember or even know of the great struggle which went on in the UnitedStates after World War I when red baiting got its start. Civil rights wereviolated on a mass scale during and after World War I until civilian control of the country was again established.
We never made the return to democracy after World War II. The changes were more subtle this time, but just as deadly. Much of the take-over by the military was hidden behind the attacks on the military by Senator JoeMcCarthy. But the military encroachment apparently is permanent." http://www.scribd.com/doc/52340939/Commander-X-Swartz-Strange-and-Unexplainable-Deaths-at-the-Hands-of-the-Secret-Government-Dead-Men-Tell-No-Tales-2005
I would substitute that the US has been taken over by the military industrial complex. It is made up of large corporations.
Corporations buy elections, buy politicians, lobby with an army of 5000 people in Congress, and pass laws that they want, but are bad for ordinary workers. They control the mass media and show only what they want, in order to 'program' people.
If we want our countries back, we need to get corporations out of elections, and ban all corporate lobbyists, plus undo the Citizens United decision. Corporations are NOT people; they never die. Either that, or the 1% need to be infected with a HUGE dose of consciousness, conscience or both.
Report Comment
Wow excellent analysis. It seems to me quite true that we never made it back to democracy after WWII, and that was due in large part to the secrecy about all things nuclear from Los Alamos, Hanford, Oakridge, Pantech, etc. to all the corporations involved in this whole nuclear development and above-ground bomb testing phase, (1942-1963): Chicago Pile to Test Ban Treaty. Over half the McCarthy-era commie hysteria was no doubt related to the duck and cover cold war nuclear death/secrecy/lies hysteria. Look what happened to that amazing epidemiological heroine Alice Stewart during this time period: they tried to crush her too. If her 1950s Oxford painstakingly-achieved dose-response statistics proved correct, then the nuclear boys would have to stop playing with all their toys, and it would be obvious that the Atomic Bomb Survivor Studies were skewed. (Never pick a nuclear "control" group that has also been contaminated is the research lesson there.) No, we never returned to real science or democracy after WWII.
Again, great analysis above. Thanks so much for taking the time to share that!
Report Comment
December 2, 1942. Enrico Fermi starts first man-made nuclear reactor, the Chicago Pile. Impromptu coded report in National Defense Research Committee archives:
"Compton: The Italian navigator has landed in the New World.
Conant: How were the natives?
Compton: Very friendly"
[In both cases they unleashed Death, the destroyer of worlds.]
Report Comment
Why is no one reporting Total Fukushima Radiation Released Into Ocean, Air, Groundwater, Storage Tanks, etc.?
http://agreenroad.blogspot.com/2012/02/total-fukushima-radiation-released-into.html
Report Comment
I would assume since they don't know where the fuel is – probably don't really want to know where the fuel is – the accurate answer is nobody knows.
Given that this is a total meltdown without any containment whatsoever, then you can safely assume 100% of it is released. I bet they've captured very little of the radiation in the storage tanks.
Report Comment
What kinds of numbers would you put with that assumption James?
How would it compare to Chernobyl for example, in terms of TBq's iodine, cesium, uranium, plutonium?
Report Comment
Wow. I have even more respect for Arnie than before.
Report Comment
I apologize to Arnold and Maggie Gundersen,….or is it Gunderson? (I'm teasing).
I had no idea,….and wish I hadn't spoken.
Report Comment
@StillJill: at least you have the decency to go on record for what might have been uninformed opinions. I respect that more than anything!
BTW. Someone before you (majia) pointed to the sensitivity of his work and why he must be guarded in what he says. Given this account, I have to agree…
Report Comment
You so funny Jill!
Report Comment
Thank you, Jill. And I agree with Aftershock's respect for you. You are open and willing to see things from new directions. Thank you, Dear Jill.
Report Comment
Mr. Gundersen, my admiration for your brave efforts has always been high, but after reading this, you and Mrs. Gundersen have my utmost appreciation and respect for all you continue to do to inform and protect the public. The world needs more brave heroes like you. THANK YOU.
Report Comment
Arnie and Maggie Gundersen are indeed remarkable individuals and I am so appreciative and grateful for their continued hard work and commitment to making our planet safe and keeping us informed. I'm so sorry to hear about your horrific experiences and admire your tenacity and strength. I will continue to support Fairewinds and wish you continued success and a trouble free future. Thanks again for everything you do for our country.
Report Comment
Deflect…from Fukushima…
Report Comment
Heart, I must respectfully disagree with our post. This site is about "energy news" and not just Fukushima, although that is a HUGE issue.
The Gulf Oil Spill was covered here, non? This site has an international scope. I for one appreciate hearing about what exactly happened to the Gundersons.
"Know thine enemy" so to speak.
IMHO we need to know what's being done to the nuclear whistle blowers.
Forgive me if I'm misreading the intention of your post.
Report Comment
… with your post, that is. Oh, today I'm disagreeing with myself. Must be that solar storm addling my brains.
Report Comment
Take a vitamin and check your generator gas!
Report Comment
HoTatars, My post below was not a response to your post, I didn't see yours until after I posted, and of course the children contaminated by the Gulf are just as innocent as those contaminated by Fukushima (and those contaminated by BP are now contaminated by Tepco most likely).
I took Heart's post to indicate not that this was off-topic, but that Gundersen's emphasis on his anti-nuclear biography not only distracts from the genocide happening today, but is exactly what bolsters his opinion: about Fukushima being in the past, about his claim that the fuel is now "cold pancakes."
If I can think of the right analogy, I will post it later. Right now, all I have is:
If John Wayne ran a support group for smokers to quit in early on, then does that excuse all of the pro-smoking advertising later that convinced millions to smoke, and therefore to get cancer and die? I'm not actually sure if John Wayne was the Marlboro Man, but you know what I mean?
Dear Arnie Gundersen:
Please stop referring to Fukushima in the past tense, it is doing harm to children. Please inform the public about the significance of iodine and other current detections of isotopes, including in the ocean spray. Thank you, and thank you for the work that you have done to protect people in the past.
Report Comment
What matters now are the children living in Fukushima and around the world who are being harmed by the continued release of fatally toxic isotopes, including iodine 131.
Yet, Gundersen has, for months now, referred to Fukushima in the past tense, thereby endangering everyone who trusts what he says, who believes that it is past tense and no longer a problem, as a friend of mine did, and started giving her kids cesium milk again.
Because of his anti-nuclear record, he is providing incredibly effective cover for Tepco and the governments of Japan and the United States.
He explained that the fuel was like a "cold pancake" when the evidence (iodine, etc.) points to the opposite. In doing so, he is betraying innocent children around the world, and helping Tepco to poison them.
Report Comment
Nonukes, if someone wearing white robes and a halo floated down from heaven on angel wings and told you the gospel truth, you'd find something about them that made you think they were working for Tepco. The past tense is how one refers to things that happened in the past, like, for instance, a year ago. No one, including Mr. Gundersen, has claimed that the contamination is gone, or that the radioactive releases have ended.
Just out of curiosity, how much cesium did you measure in your milk?
Report Comment
Well, if they started talking about "cold" pancakes and in the past tense about Fukushima, I would think that they would be wrong to do so, no matter how pretty their halo. He has stopped speaking of current releases, in the context of Japan trying to get people to move back in.
Report Comment
I have never heard Arnie Gundersen encourage people to move back to contaminated areas. Are you really trying to insinuate that he has said that, or that he supports that idea? I think that is not true. When I find a person like yourself making false statements, I tend to think that everything else that person says is probably equally false.
If Mr. Gunderson says that the melted fuel is now like cold pancakes, I believe him. I would also believe him if he said that radiation releases have stopped. What information or expertise are you relying on to claim otherwise?
Without the appropriate education and understanding it's easy to misinterpret events, and to swallow uncritically the uninformed and inaccurate interpretations of other anonymous internet savants. Statements are not necessarily true simply because someone with a catchy nickname types them. Not even if they type in capital letters.
Report Comment
Sandman,
Don't blame me, I'm not the one who has lately been detecting more iodine, cesium, etc.!
Where does that come from, sandman?
Bobby1
February 22, 2012 at 12:35 pm · Reply
The 160 Bq/kg of iodine-131 in Gunma prefecture sludge, as of Feb. 7, is the highest amount of iodine since they started measuring it on May 1.
http://www.pref.gunma.jp/05/h6600041.html (Japanese)
Report Comment
No Nukes, I think it's a good idea that you're trying to understand or verify the information you think you have, but as I said earlier, random unknown voices on the internet are probably not your best bet for enlightenment. In other words, don't ask me. And by the way, nobody blamed you for "detecting cesium", I blamed you for misrepresenting Arnie Gunderson's statements and then condemning him over your false allegations. That's the thing about written arguments, it's harder to pretend to be talking about something else when it's right there in black and white, isn't it.
Report Comment
Where do you think that the iodine comes from, sandman?
Report Comment
Sandman,
Let's say there is a forest fire, and the mayor and the city council refused to do anything to protect the townspeople, and then an expert forest fire watchdog came to the town, and gave a detailed talk about how we really need to build a better matchstick while the forest fire is STILL raging, is he helping the townspeople, or is he helping the politicians?
What we need from an expert nuclear watchdog right now, is not for him to go to Japan and and offer an analysis of the flaws of the GE Mark 1 BWR nuclear reactors. To me, it is too much like talking about building a better matchstick while the forest fire is raging, it implies that the forest fire is not a pressing concern. There are fatally toxic isotopes being produced as I write, damaging innocent children.
A quick search on Iodine 131 from government websites that will tell you that iodine131 is a fission product that destroys the thyroid gland. Once the thyroid is destroyed by iodine 131, this affects every organ in the body, especially the brain.
Iodine 131 has a short half life, so it indicates that there is recent fission. Nuclear fuel is fissioning in the open air at Fukushima, which even pro-nuke people will tell you is not supposed to happen because it is deeply dangerous. This is not to say that there aren't hundreds of other deadly isotopes being produced right now as well, iodine is not the only radiation being detected:
Cesium fallout spiked to 349 Million Bq/km2 in one day at Fukushima City 60km from meltdowns — Near 40-fold increase from previous 24-hour period
http://enenews.com/cesium-fallout-spiked-to-349000000-bqkm2-in-one-day-at-fukushima-city-60km-from-meltdowns-near-40-fold-increase-from-previous-24-hour-period#comment-211742
I have said over and over, that all I am asking is Gundersen speak in the present tense about Fukushima and speak to the indicators that this isn't a cold shutdown.
Reality has a present tense bias.
Report Comment
? Arnie's not "endangering" anybody, NoNukes. Anybody paying attention knows what the dangers are, and some are so involved they've bought detectors and are monitoring regularly. In Japan and elsewhere. People in the contaminated areas can move, get their children out of there. They will or they won't, based on THEIR OWN estimations of danger and THEIR OWN determination to do for themselves what their government and corporate overlords won't help them do.
I sincerely doubt there's a single aware human being on this planet who has waited for an entire year to hear Arnold Gundersen refer to Fukushima in the past tense so they can happily believe it's all over. Hell, most of them never heard of Arnold Gundersen anyway. He is not TEPCO, he is not the Japanese government, he is not the U.S. NRC, he is not NEI, he is not ANS, he is not a nuclear utility company anywhere in the world. He's just a man, someone who has spoken out when asked to, who has tried to help educate interested people about things nuclear.
Honestly, it's semi-amazing to me that after a year's time you want to switch from blaming actually responsible parties for the mass nuclear tragedies in Fukushima province on one old guy in Vermont. And just so you know, it took more than 15 years to decommission TMI2, yet they (as in "everyone" including anti-nukes and press) called it "Recovery" beginning a mere 3 days after the meltdown. Yes, there were regular releases of radioactivity for years thereafter, both planned and unplanned. The EQ and tsunami happened a year ago. TEPCO and the Japanese government declared "cold shutdown" several times, most recently in December. Now it's a "recovery" situation, even if it continues to melt and spew for the rest of our lives.
"The Disaster at Fukushima" happened in March of 2011. Everything else is follow-up.
Report Comment
JoyB,
In the context of Japan trying to get people to move back into Fukushima, Gundersen's use of the past tense, and assertions that the fuel is a harmless in December, helps Japan's claim of "cold shutdown." By helping them with this fantasy of cold shutdown, he is harming people.
All I am suggesting is the truth, the detections of radiation from Fukushima are increasing.
As I said before:
"JoyB,
The question for me is this:
Why is Gundersen pretending that there isn't iodine? This isn't in doubt. It isn't over. Why is he suggesting to the children of Japan that it is?
Bobby1
February 22, 2012 at 12:35 pm · Reply
The 160 Bq/kg of iodine-131 in Gunma prefecture sludge, as of Feb. 7, is the highest amount of iodine since they started measuring it on May 1.
http://www.pref.gunma.jp/05/h6600041.html (Japanese)
Report Comment
The iodine being detected is nothing close to the huge amounts that went out last year. Yet when it hit eastern North America, Philadelphia couldn't tell if it was from Fukushima or not because their water supply routinely violates federal limits for iodine. Happens whenever one or more of their surrounding nukes scrams or decides to vent the tanks.
The coriums at Daiichi are pretty well "fissioned out" by now. In its state it couldn't sustain a chain reaction in or out of water (though it can remain molten indefinitely). There will be iodine wafting through until they isolate the very last spec of fuel, decades down the road. The main issue is HOW MUCH more crap will that process release to the environment. If there are any intact rods in the fuel pools now, they're entirely likely to break open when moved. Daiichi's nowhere near done dumping.
Nothing Arnold Gundersen says or doesn't say about Daiichi will determine what the Japanese government or the Japanese people do about their ongoing 'forever' nuclear disaster. Nobody's mad enough about it to go to war with Japan so they can take it over. It's Japanese karma, they'll have to deal with it. Or not. Their choice, not yours, mine, or Arnie's.
Report Comment
P.S. Arnie has never said the fuel or corium at Fukushima Daiichi is "harmless." That's rather a serious accusation, you might wish to retract as the hyperbole it is.
Report Comment
JoyB, "cold pancakes" might lead a reasonable person to understand that you see the object as harmless. If you wanted to convey the deep threat of the materials, you probably wouldn't use a cold breakfast food analogy.
As I have said before, by saying that there is a threat in the past, and a possible threat in the future, it leaves out the immediate threat in what infants are breathing and eating right now. He has mentioned the continued contamination of the ocean, but not the detections of fresh iodine, etc.
Gundersen is one of a handful of people with a bully pulpit right now. I am simply calling on him to be our "nuclear watchdog," of the present, we are now counting on him to tell us what he knows about this increase in iodine, cesium, etc.
Report Comment
JoyB,
Thinking about you statement
"There will be iodine wafting through…"
I think that,
A delicious smell from the Thanksgiving turkey roasting "wafts through…"
A warm summer breeze wafts over your hammock, but
Iodine 131 invades thyroids, especially those of babies and children, and especially those of girls, then causes disease and death.
Because of the short half-life, it indicates recent fission, which means some fuel is definitely NOT fissioned out. We deserve to know what is happening right now, especially from our nuclear watchdogs. Especially for Japan, but the rest of the world, too.
All is not cold.
"Mack
March 4, 2012 at 12:02 am · Reply
GROSS BETA for 2/25/12-3/3/12.
These are the highest levels found for each area:
Riverside, CA [285] 2/26 5:33 p.m.
Yuma, AZ [437] 2/25 4:08 p.m.
Denver, CO [155] 2/28 3:44 p.m.
Little Rock, AK [83] 2/27 12:40 p.m.
Austin, TX [168] 3/1 2:38 p.m.
Mason City, IA [128] 2/29 4:31 p.m.
Madison, WI [129] 3/1 9:12 a.m.
Charleston, WV [129] 2/26 2:08 p.m.
Washington, DC [53] 2/28 1:43 p.m.
Tampa, FL [212] 2/29 2:28 p.m.
These are the highest, but there were 3 times that there were peaks. So, is something coming in waves?"
anne
March 8, 2012 at 9:13 am · Reply
Gross Beta Count Rates
Over 400, Phoenix, AZ, 6 Mar
http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/net2/Phoenix-AZ-Real-Time-US-Radiation-Monitoring-Graph.aspx
Almost 740, Bakersfield, about 6 or 7 Mar
http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/net2/Bakersfield-CA-Real-Time-US-Radiation-Monitoring-Graph.aspx
Almost 300, Riverside, CA, about 6 or 7 Mar
http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/net2/Riverside-CA-Real-Time-US-Radiation-Monitoring-Graph.aspx
Bismarck, ND looks bad most of the time
http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/net2/Bismarck-ND-Real-Time-US-Radiation-Monitoring-Graph.aspx
Report Comment
"Cold" pancakes was definitely the wrong way to characterize entire cores' worth of corium. Which even if fissioned out can still generate enough heat from decay to remain actively molten and extremely hot indefinitely.
And I am entirely cognizant of iodine as the most limiting isotope in general releases. Have had my family on kelp and topical iodine for a year now. "Wafting" speaks of air currents, and that is how iodine released from Fuku (or anywhere else) gets to where you are. It doesn't take a stiff wind or tornado or hurricane to get iodine from Japan to your front porch. It'll get there eventually on normal air currents.
And at this point when iodine is being generated primarily by flash fission events, yes it is indeed coming in occasional 'waves'. All of the iodine originally released by the meltdowns/pool fires last year decayed away in a bit over 2.5 months. Every new release decays away in that amount of time too. And while you may find significant thyroid damage in the local population around Fukushima, you would not measure a single isotope disintegration from the original releases. Because it's all gone. Any iodine being measured now is less than 2.5 months old.
In this country I have not heard of anyone receiving the limit specified for radiological emergency – 20 Rem to the thyroid, a.k.a. 200 mSv. This of course doesn't mean the 'authorities' haven't been lying constantly about true levels. Highest combined beta/gamma at my place last spring was ~.0015 R/hr, .15 mSv/hr. That was 'wafting' through, came and went with the breeze. It's unlikely to give us cancer, but you never know. So we took precautions. Everyone concerned about it should do that too.
I never needed Arnie to tell me that. Did you?
Report Comment
And in case you didn't know previously, Arnold Gundersen is not a health physicist. Radiation is not his specialty, nuclear engineering is. So I can't figure out why you want to turn him into the world's Health Physicist in Chief. Whatever credibility he has as a nuclear engineer would be destroyed if he pretended to be something he's not.
Report Comment
JoyB,
Well, I feel like the effect of our conversations has been to potentially rip the veil from my eyes. I was an early fan of Gundersen, thanking him and praising him on this website, sending links to my family and friends, etc. I honestly haven't given much time to thinking about his presentations beyond that.
However, now I have been thinking about the word "melt." Everyone who understands English knows exactly what the word "melt" means, it is not a technical term that requires an analogy to understand.
An analogy for the word "melt" is unnecessary, superfluous, extraneous.
I know from linguists that seemingly unnecessary words actually do serve various purposes. My redundancy above both drives home my point and offers an example of unnecessary repetition.
So, why use these unnecessary analogies for "melt?" What does "pancake" or spaghetti add?
Then I realized. When I think of "pancakes" I think of Saturday mornings with my family when I was a kid, lots of syrup, even cartoons.
When I think of spaghetti, I think of family dinners in the winter, cold outside that makes the warm food that much more delicious.
So, I realize now that that what these seemingly unnecessary analogies do is to take one of the most terrifying events possible, nuclear fuel breaching containment, completely uncontrolled and uncontrollable, and DOMESTICATES it, moves it from the sublime horror of a nuclear plant
incomprehensively raging out of control, to the safe, contained, happy world of pancakes, syrup, Saturday cartoons.
It is like, "Don't think of an elephant!"
As much as we know that the fuel is out of control, the words "pancake" and "spaghetti" put images in our minds that conjure up associations of yummy nourishment.
Everyone else may have realized this at once, the ramifications just really sank in for me.
The National Academy of Scientists has said that there is "no safe dose of radiation. Decades of research show…
Report Comment
…the risks to an individual for the development of cancer. Chernobyl showed that those who were in utero during Chernobyl even far away, in Sweden, had lower I.Q.s.
To me, it looks like “Health Physicists” were invented to cover up the basic fact that there is no safe dose of radiation, to make the simple appear complicated.
Primum non nocere, “First, do no harm.” The Hippocratic Oath is often the foundation of medical training, maybe that is why the majority of “Health Physicists” are NOT doctors, although, of course their name makes them sound like they are. They don’t need a medical degree at all, and are often in reality engineers, like Gundersen, with a Masters and a certificate from an accreditation process during which they probably learn interesting ways of saying that certain amounts of radiation are safe.
So, that one of Gundersen’s staunchest defenders points to “Health Physicists” as authorities on the safety of radiation is also troubling.
Equally troubling is the argument that you and anne, and others have introduced, that we are all responsible for our “own precautions,” and it is implied that we are to blame if we did not. People are right that I am not thinking about Gundersen’s safety, I am not thinking of my own safety, right now I am thinking about the babies being born today in Fukushima.
First, that baby sitting in that crib today in Fukushima, is it his fault that he doesn’t have kelp liquid in his crib? Or is it his fault that he “chose” to be born to parents so poor that they can’t pay their Tepco utility bill, much less buy “protection.” Is it his fault that his mother is illiterate, is it hers?
Genocide doesn’t happen to rich people as much as the poor. At the sign of serious trouble, the rich can get away. Poor people are often the ones who suffer most with Genocide. Genocide is possible because people do NOT always have agency, it is an event defined by the powerlessness of the poor.
Secondly, aerosolized…
Report Comment
aerosolized plutonium was detected in Lithuania, JoyB. What is your little bottle of kelp going to do if aerosolized plutonium came your way? Nothing, absolutely nothing. The idea that there even are effective “precautions” is a lie.
They have been killing beagle dogs with inhaled plutonium for about half a century. The beagles seem to always die, so I don’t know why they continue killing the dogs, the grant money must be terrific. If you inhale plutonium, you are going to die most likely, no matter what “precautions” you take.
Based on how much Plutonium, Uranium, etc. is still on site at Fukushima, it is horrifying:
For the baby born in Fukushima today, there is a good chance that his first breath may include aerosolized plutonium.
For a baby born in Fukushima today, there is a good chance that her first breath may include radioactive iodine.
For babies born in South Korea, Spain, or anywhere else in the Northern and Southern Hemispheres today, their first breaths may also include deadly toxins from Fukushima, too.
We owe it to the next generations to at least speak the truth. The only way to truly help the children is to get them as far away from the source of aerosolized plutonium, etc. as possible.
Individually, we may not be able to buy the children plane tickets, but the least thing we can give them is the truth.
Gundersen is one man in Vermont, I am one woman in California. First, we must do no harm. So few even know what is happening, we must speak the truth, as we have been taught for decades that Silence = Death. When we speak, we must not minimize the situation.
Genocide requires pretty words, they are central, it can’t seem to happen without them. To describe the source of the genocide with pretty words like “pancake,” “spaghetti” and “wafting” goes even beyond remaining silent to complicity.
To continue to use such pretty words for genocide means that the blood pouring out of Fukushima hearts is on your hands.
Report Comment
Hmmm… lot to think about in your response, NoNukes. First, I agree with you about using "pancakes" as an analogy AT ALL, much less "cold" pancakes. It is indeed deceptive, doubly so with the temperature modifier. Though I can't think of anybody who likes their pancakes cold. If an analogy needed making, "puddle of ceramic slip" would be good, no temperature modifier. That's a liquid mud of water and fine clay particles, opaque and thick enough to settle a little above the subsurface level.
Or even something less viscous than that, corium comes in a range depending on chemical content and temperature. Which, now that I brought it back up, is nowhere near "cold" no matter how you slice it. It's molten metals, ceramics, concrete, and whatever else it's melted into itself. Lava hot, thousands of degrees. And so radioactive it would kill you to look upon it.
That's why I said clearly that "cold pancakes" was definitely the wrong way to characterize this stuff. I do not know why Arnie would do that, he surely must know better. He said it in Japan, so I'm guessing politics, a lie in service to their 'official' game plan of pretending it's all over (everyone go shopping!) in exchange for the chance to be there and say anything at all. I don't know. If I ever meet him I'll ask…
Then I'll go ahead and say that I am a health physics technician, but the term is "health physicist." Most everyone who does the actual work at nuclear plants are technicians. Including operators. In my day most of 'em came out of 6 or more years in Rickover's Navy, where about 3 years' worth of intensive education was crammed into 6 months' of intensive – no time off for good behavior. Many who made it through, didn't go crazy on long patrols, and wanted "good jobs" when they got out, went to the industry. DOE certification is all that was required, got mine from ANL…
Report Comment
Some colleges have degree programs I hear, those guys might meet your criteria. They're the ones who formed the HP society that turns out crap for the industry lobby about how safe yummy radiation is. In the real world they are the folks who hold the middle management positions with the utility – paperwork and a**-kissing. Degreed engineers tend to hold even higher management positions. Technicians, as is the way of things in the modern world, actually run the show.
An HP's job is to monitor radiation, monitor all releases to air and water, assay for isotopes and concentrations, take and process samples in the lab, determine safety measures for work crews, cover workers in contaminated areas, monitor and record doses, maintain off-site radiation (and sometimes seismic) monitoring, and decontaminate workers who get crapped up.
The HP's expertise is radiation – its nature and sources, and its damaging effects on biological tissues. And knowing how to prevent or mitigate that damage. I haven't been inside a nuke for 33 years this month, but last I checked HPs are still required at all nuclear facilities. Some work for the utility, some are subcontracted.
Utilities like to use their own HP staff for normal operations because they work for the corporation and corporate dependency makes it easier when numbers need to be fudged. HPs are among the few people at a nuclear plant who have the power to "Stop the Job" if radiological conditions warrant. That means the HP can order the reactor to shut down without clearing it through corporate HQ or D.C. An HP with a conscience is sometimes a crux of tension in plants with sloppy operations. Part of the job description, actually.
I've never known an HP who pretended to be a medical doctor, so I don't know what gave you the impression that health physics is a branch of health care…
Report Comment
Finally, no child should ever be maliciously or neglectfully harmed. Unfortunately, that isn't a universal standard in our world. Political policies alone sentence millions of children to death every year, and not just in dirty big or little wars. And of course it's the poor who suffer most. It has always been thus, even though we all know it's wrong. Many of us do what we can to alleviate the suffering we encounter. Most of us are limited in what we can do beyond that. Sad but true.
Yes, plutonium is in Lithuania. And everywhere else in the northern hemisphere, now moving south. Yes, it's nasty stuff. I expect we're in for yet another few decades of grossly increased cancer rates just as we were back in the not-so glorious '50s and '60s. There's not a damned thing you or I can do about it except speak out. Here we are, speaking out. Arnie's been speaking out too. I for one won't dismiss all the good he has done just because "cold pancakes" is bad form. If the Japanese promised to provide full relocation assistance and lifetime health monitoring/care to everyone affected by the disaster if I'd use a deceptive analogy in a press conference, I'd call it cotton candy without blinking an eye. But that's just me.
I understand your frustration, even your anger. I just think it's entirely counterproductive to cut off your nose to spite your face. Blaming Arnold Gundersen for the tragedy of Fukushima is ridiculous IMO. But I'm pretty sure the entire world nuclear industry, their many high level lobbying outfits, and their pocket politicians all thank you kindly for it.
Report Comment
Well said, JoyB. I would think our time is better spent focusing on the industry as a whole and finding ways to shut down plants in our respective countries.
It's easy for us to be armchair quarterbacks, but much harder for a man like Arnie Gundersen who is actually out in the fray, sticking his neck out to educate his viewers on the dangers of nuclear power. That he is still willing to do so, after being so viciously targeted by the nuclear bullies, is all I need to show where his heart lies. To suddenly do an about face and start shilling for the industry would be completely against his character.
For my part, I prefer spending my time figuring out practical steps we can take to shut the NPPs down, rather than wasting time lambasting as you put it so well "one man in Vermont."
Report Comment
We have to get the kids out of Fukushima, first, What-About-The-Kids, and Gundersen is not helping with that by implying Fukushima is in the past, that is the problem.
All I am suggesting is that he speak in the present tense and address the implications of iodine. I don't think that the nuclear industry will shoot him for that. If he doesn't want to talk about the reality, then fine, keep quiet don't give people the wrong idea. Now Tepco/Japan can point to him and say, "Look, even our "nuclear watchdog" says that it is okay!"
I love the whole idea of Gundersen, he reminds me of my Uncle Norm, and think that he has a responsibility to speak the present tense because of all of the evidence.
Report Comment
I hear ya, NoNukes. I too believe it is the moral duty of the nation of Japan to tale care of their most vulnerable, their children. They MUST get those beautiful children away from the worst areas of contamination!!!
By now, with so many comments and opinions about Mr. Gundersen, I am sure he has been made aware of this thread by now. So stating your wishes here may get to him. You might also send him a letter or email, just in case.
Report Comment
FAPP – a quantum physics term that means For All Practical Purposes – the accident at Fukushima Daiichi has moved from active to passive tense. The earthquake set it off, the tsunami shut off the lights, the reactor cores melted, the fuel pools leaked and burned, the containments exploded… it was quite a ride. Now it is in "recovery" mode, they've begun doing what they can about the primary remaining dangers. Which are the spent fuel pools and their precarious condition. If another big quake (or simply rust) causes one or more of those pools to collapse, it will again be an "accident" – a new one, happening to beasties vulnerable because of the last one(s). Heck, we may be in for regular "accidents at Fukushima Daiichi" from now until Kingdom Come. Who knows?
Nobody in Japan should be fooled into believing the danger is over, or that the exclusion zone is fit for human habitation. It's not, and never will be (FAPP). I just don't see Arnie saying otherwise. And until/unless he does, I see no reason to worry about it.
Report Comment
Thanks, JoyB. I continue to appreciate the intelligent, experience-based insight you offer here. Your input is highly valuable. Thanks again.
BTW: I absolutely love your newly-coined term describing the whole gamut of agencies as: "Nuclear NOT-watchdogs." May I use it and quote you on it? ;-D
Report Comment
Sure you can! §;o)
Report Comment
Great! Thanks.
Found some other gems here today in addition to your "Nuclear Not-WatchDogs": Someone sorry, can't remember who at the moment) proposed a "Cash for Clunkers" program for nuclear plant decomissioning and someone chimed in with "Bucks for Bequerels!"
ROTFL!!!! Comic relief is always appreciated and much needed these days, yes? 
Report Comment
Yes. §;o)
Report Comment
Joy, I'm sorry you are either really out of touch or you are pulling one over on us.
There is nobody even thinking about recovery at Fukushima right now.
Did you see the latest webcam videos – that site is dotted with active corium fires.
They are desperate to keep #4 under control.
The only place it's moved to passive tense is in the minds of the nuclear industry.
Report Comment
Ummmmm……
JoyB says:
Nobody in Japan should be fooled into believing the danger is over, or that the exclusion zone is fit for human habitation. It's not, and never will be (FAPP). I just don't see Arnie saying otherwise. And until/unless he does, I see no reason to worry about it.
The odd thing about alot of the confrontation you insist on provoking is that it is entirely built on strawmen of your own making.
Its a consistent practice of yours.
An odd one, and one which I can only attribute to ego. If not, then there it is clearly an attempt to undermine credible posters who provide some of the best insights and backgrounds at this site.
Others have completely given posting as a result of this sort of thing and I am sure many do not consider posting in order to avoid such undue hostility.
Frankly for someone who consistently attacks people for being shills, you behave alot like one.
Report Comment
Garbage, J2. Even you talk in the past tense about unit-3's explosion. That's because it happened last year, and IS NOT HAPPENING NOW. I fail to see what's so difficult to understand about that. It's reality as it exists.
Yes, the facility is in no way 'stable' and lots of things can go wrong-er than they already have. Hell, removing spent fuel is going to release as much radioactive crap to the local environment as the original accident did and for 6 months or so thereafter. Hopefully it won't again explode into the upper atmosphere to end up blanketing the planet.
Each and every incident and release that occurs over the next century or so as they try to deal with what's left of Fukushima Daiichi will be recorded as an incident and release resulting from the horrendous disaster that occurred there in March of 2011. So the effects will still be with us long after you and I are dead of old age (or something else).
Thus I see no reason to get all huffy over semantics on how the matter is classified at this point in time or into the future. Your complaints won't change a thing, so it just looks like you throwing a fit in the sandbox because the other kids won't play your game your way. I've raised way too many kids, am now officially retired from that thankless task. Take it up with your own Mommy.
Report Comment
A-Bloody-Men JoyB!
Report Comment
I knew his personal trials and tribulations since last summer and I am glad he is now doing well.
Infrequently I differ with his viewpoints and assessments at times, but never feel anything but respect for his intelligence and courage. Arnie…I have a bobblehead armadillo on my dash and his name is Arnie. He is my traveling companion and stalwart listener.
Take care and continue the good fight. You are the victor and now they know their jobs are on the line. As you said…Fukushima will be the bookend to TMI for the nuclear industry. I believe that also.
Report Comment
It is their pensions that matter. Agreed, Gunderson rocks
Report Comment
Every woman, child, and man on earth should study what Gundersen say's, regarding nuclear energy.
Report Comment
Yes, I for one have learned a lot from Arnie and respect him and applaud his bravery in the face of heavy criticism. I don't think he was using neuro-linguistics to sedate the public which has been suggested. He is just trying to simplify technical terms for everyone to understand and as I recall he apologized for how corny it appeared to nuke engineers etc. I don't know why some are finding fault with a man who was one of the few individuals trying to help us understand this accident from the very beginning. If you don't care for him, don't listen to what he has to say. And no, I don't think his videos have any bearing concerning the actions of the Japanese Government or TEPCO.
Report Comment
I have no doubt that Arnie did have all those things happen to him. We know from Silkwood that these things happen.
However all that is in the past. He's now using it to try to recover his reputation.
My problem with Arnie is his recent videos are obviously pushing things that have just this week been further proven to be not true
Specifically he is pushing the nuclear industry's assertion that the explosion of #3 did not come from the core, but instead came from the SFP.
The other thing that was obvious is that the known industry shills here would jump all over his videos and say what a great guy he is. As soon as I saw this I understood why he was saying this – I think they've obviously hired him to push their agenda
Perhaps he traded the Vermont Yankee plant for his support – perhaps he got a lot of money – I don't know nor do I care.
Report Comment
@Jame2: though your opinion is much respected (at least by me), can you elaborate as to why this discrepancy (core vs SFP) is so significant to his credibility? I agree that it's important to closely examine the motives of anyone who's speaking on an issue, but is this difference of opinion such a deal breaker and such cause for suspicion? Aside from the charge of his being a closet-schill for the nuclear power industry, if such suspicion cannot be substantiated, is it not dangerous to marginalize his contributions?
Report Comment
It's only important if you want to know who will live and who will die. Personally I'd like to know.
Let's say you are a sailor for example that was riding on the USS Reagan on March 14th and your ship got rained down on by whatever came out of the #3 explosion –
well if it was the core – then it was MOX with plutonium in nanometer powder form – then that powder rained down and you and you better be getting watched continuously for cancer – because it's coming to you soon.
If it was merely the spent fuel pool, then the plutonium and Uranium didn't exist in nanometer powder form and it would be less likely you got a dose of them. you may have dodged the fukushima bullet.
Now – we all now know from the NRC FOIA stuff we've been reading for the past week that the NRC knew as early as March 16th it was the core that ejected.
That's bad news for the Sailors, and bad news for the people of Japan, and in-fact bad news for all of mankind. How bad, I'm not exactly sure. In-fact, we didn't even need this confirmation – all the data and observations point to this – and physics indicates this too – as I have been arguing here for months.
However the nuclear industry doesn't want to concede that point because if people knew this they would immediately demand MOX be eliminated – they should.
And Arnie – despite being a nuclear engineer and knowing it is impossible that explosion to have come from the SFP3 – but had to have come from the core – despite knowing that is impossible – he's been continuously claiming it to be true – why does he do that?
It's a lie, he knows it and he's been propagating it publicly – why? I think I know, I'll let you decide for yourself.
Report Comment
@Jame2: aside from the epidemiological effects of what you're pointing out, your objections have not convinced that he's acting on behalf of the nuclear power industry. Your statement "…we all now know from the NRC FOIA stuff we've been reading for the past week…" argues that it's also about what's being disclosed and confirmed.
I very much appreciate your cutting-edge analysis of the dangers faced by all. I'd even go so far as to trust your take on such matters, before others; including the 'learned' Mr. Gundersen! What I cannot do is join-in the smearing of anyone's overall intent, because they may happen to hold to a differing analysis; especially when it comes to such nuanced subject matter. Until I see a cancelled checked fall from his briefcase that came from the nuclear power industry, I will continue to respect his role in this battle.
That said, I will continue reading your posts with respectful anticipation; because you're that good! Thank you James2…
Report Comment
What I describe is the most important issue of the entire disaster – for humanity overall – and as such, the most damaging information to the nuclear industry.
Now go look at Arnie's videos where he casually describes – as fact over and over again -something that didn't happen. At first I was a bit annoyed, but then I saw it as a deliberate pattern.
He smears himself. I just refuse to let it go – it's that important.
Report Comment
@James2: I respect your tenacity. If it's important enough, it'll eventually reach the light of day. I also think that your objections may act as a rudder, for him as well. As already said, you're respected for what you do. I'd only ask that we remain respectful of each others opinions. You've shown such to me, so my hat's off to you…
Report Comment
I think I've demonstrated why it's important enough.
As for it "reaching the light of day" well – the industry is spending a lot of time and effort burying it.
That's why I'm so tenacious.
Report Comment
Actually, no it's not. There was always way more plutonium in the spent fuel pools than there was in the core of unit-3 when it blew. But yes, reports early on were indeed that fuel rods and partial assemblies were scattered about the place. And yes, fuel was atomized by the explosions and lofted into the plumes both high and low. Coming from the unit-3 core instead of the unit-1 core or the spent fuel pools of units 1, 2, 3 or 4 honestly doesn't affect the harm done and ongoing. It's all very nasty stuff, and all of it contains plutonium.
The only really "important" thing that would come from a determination that unit-3 blew from the core and not the venting or the pool would be the indictment of MOX fuel as inherently unstable in a fuel damage accident. MORE unstable than UOX, that is. And units 1 and 2 indicated clearly that UOX isn't very stable when it's melting either.
Truthfully, I'm more intrigued by that "vertical earthquake" that "caused" unit-1 to explode. Can't quite tell if that bit of silliness was inserted to lighten the mood at an overworked OpCenter or if somebody there actually saw it in a tech report from Fukushima and believed it. It's wildly out of place in the flow of material from March 12 about the explosion released, both written (emails) and transcribed, and quite contradictory to everything else coming and going. Don't know quite what to make of it. Heck, most of the executives and reactor safety team spent much of that day saying it didn't look at all like an H2 explosion, had to be steam because there wasn't much flame and no after-fires. Didn't become H2 until rather late in the day, per Japanese reports they acquiesced to so as not to offend when just establishing liaison.
So by the time unit-3 blew, H2 (and one 'strange' vertical EQ) was the official word and would remain so, no matter what really happened.
Report Comment
I still believe this is the heart of the whole disaster.
As I said previously I think there is significant difference between the two – given a UOX explosion like #3 and a MOX explosion like #3, the MOX one is infinitely more dangerous.
It's because of the grind of the powder. Apparently MOX was proposed and they begun researching it in the 1970's. It took 20 years to figure out how to grind the materials small enough and mix them thoroughly enough to get the "burn" right. If not mixed very carefully they get hot spots.
So the MOX fuel is ground down to the Nanometer level before mixing – that's billionths of a meter in diameter – too small to see with conventional microscopes.
The conventional fuel manufacturing hasn't changed much over the years – it didn't need to be nanometer ground – and isn't. So the particles of the Uranium fuel rod explosion might be 1000 times as heavy as those in a MOX fuel explosion
That's the difference between a heavy metal falling to the ground, and a heavy metal circling the globe in the jetstream
AND FOLKS THAT'S WHY IT'S CRUCIAL TO KNOW WHETHER IT WAS THE SFP OR CORE THAT EXPLODED – IT'S NOT MERELY "NICE TO KNOW", IT'S LITERALLY A MATTER OF LIFE OR DEATH FOR THE REST OF THE WORLD.
Now, I have a theory that the nanometer powder grind in MOX may actually be both a curse and a blessing at the same time. Perhaps – just maybe the plutonium is disbursed so finely that breathing Nanometer particles from Fukushima in Europe, for example, is not fatal – as it would be with micrometer ground plutonium.
Until the industry admits the truth and researchers start studying the problem, we will not know.
Report Comment
How Dangerous Is The 400-600 Pounds Of Plutonium Nano Dust Liberated By Fukushima?
http://agreenroad.blogspot.com/2012/03/how-dangerous-is-400-600-pounds-of.html
They should start by studying the effect of this…
Report Comment
This is it AGreenRoad!
I see you understood the problem and I'm happy you published it.
Excellent.
Now I only have one question base on this analysis. I understand the fatal dose of Plutonium is estimated at .5 microgram 1/2 of 1 millionth of a gram, which is equivalent to 500 nanograms.
Per my theory above – one thing that might be our savior in this situation is the fact that the plutonium was ground to a smaller size than 500 nanometers.
I can't find the original information I read on it, but I read a paper which was describing "burn rate" as a function of the fine powder and mixture and determined that the best burn rate was achieved by – I'm going by memory here – I seem to remember 100-200 nanometer powder.
Well, if that's the case, and the MOX breaks back up into that size – which would certainly travel around the world for possibly decades – then a single one of those particles isn't a fatal dose – only 1/5 to 1/3 of a fatal dose.
Lots of speculation and ifs there – and I have no idea how efficient the body is at accumulating that stuff into the same spot – could you potentially have dozens of smaller doses at various places around your body and they don't kill you unless they combine? or is it likely the body will send them all into the same place.
I can find no information on this – but this is the central piece of data I've been looking for this past year.
Thanks
Report Comment
J2, you have never established that it was the core and not the SFP that blew at unit-3. Or both. You just keep on insisting – stridently. I've seen no such thing, even though I don't trust what any 'officials' have said about it, publicly or just between themselves. Doesn't matter.
Truth: the NRC is no more trustworthy than NISA or IAEA or any other nuclear not-watchdog agency on the planet. Nothing they discussed early on is to be taken as fact. It's all speculation. Educated speculation to be sure, but they were as in the dark as anybody else per what was really going on. They were trying hard to figure it out, that's all. Just like people here, but with more money, tools and toys to play with.
It matters not one bit what "size" the fuel pellet components were when the fuel was first fabricated. What matters is that gases (atoms and small groups of atoms) in large quantities were released. A great deal of fuel was "vaporized," which means that atoms – isotopes – got released along with the heavier particulates from the blasts. Even nanometer particulates are bigger than single atoms or molecules, and will fall out relatively quickly.
The atomic "weight" of individual atoms or molecules in air as gas is relatively meaningless, though layers may form at altitudes. Some or most may remain airborne circling the globe for many years before getting into cloud droplets and falling in the rain. There is no difference between atoms of P239 in spent fuel and atoms of P239 in MOX fuel. Really.
Report Comment
Good post, I wonder if hearing it from someone else will make a differnce?
Report Comment
Joy I understand that Kevin doesn't believe the laws of physics, I assume most others do.
You see it is simply impossible the explosion of #3 came from the SFP. The physical characteristics of the blast would be different that what we can easily observe. It's as simple as that.
If you want more – there are hundreds of other pieces of data that support that fact – because it's a fact.
if you want to believe otherwise – well then you don't choose to believe the truth, or in physics. I'm sorry for you.
Report Comment
I readily admit that I am no explosives expert. I do readily admit that it looked to me like unit-3 suffered an entirely different kind of explosion than unit-1. None of us got to see unit-2 or unit-4 go, so we couldn't speculate in any direction except on forensics. And unit-3's forensics look a lot like its explosion came deep – as in from the drywell, not the upper floor. But at least I know that's speculation on my part. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if 'somebody' someday found it was core(ium) and not spent fuel. Wouldn't matter at all to the vaporized material or ejected chunks.
Nor would it surprise me – hear me here, James – to find one of these days that there was MOX in the spent fuel pool. They were going to full-load in September. If the fuel had been purchased, it would have been in a pool.
Thus I honestly don't think nano-size matters, core versus fuel pool. Even worse, that fresh MOX might very well have been in the transfer pool instead of the spent pool – whole other side of the building. Most of what was once in that particular facility got out. As broken assemblies, as ejected rods, as assorted fuel chunks, as dust, and as vaporized gas. They take weekends off at Daiichi, you know. They wouldn't do that if there were anything that needed constant attention.
Report Comment
Also, please explain this "vaporiization" process of the nuclear fuel.
Apparently those that want to claim the SFP exploded are claiming a nuclear blast happened in the SFP, and yet the water remained in the pool and the walls remained intact, and the shock wave was able to travel through the intact SFP walls and destroy parts of the building on the other side and underneath the walls.
On top of that, the blast vector somehow contained itself to a vertical column – although blasts don't contain themselves in the real world – physics dictates they propagate in all directions from a point unless they are physically contained.
Do you understand how dumb anybody looks if they claim such a thing?
Report Comment
I cant think of anyone who has claimed what you are saying is making them look so dumb to claim.
Furthermore, your superhuman observcation skills are truly awesome, but they are not the facts.
Finally, the only things people are claiming James is that we do not know.
That you know, is awesome!
But clearly others do not and will not until they see something definitive.
Report Comment
James, I believe that the unit-3 explosion was core-based. I expect most of the 'experts' out there strongly suspect and/or believe the same thing. Though politics prevents them from saying so. What any of us believes is irrelevant. It's out, it will cause its allotment of harm to life.
"Vaporization" is when there's enough radiation – gamma or neutrons – to literally turn you (or a large amount of heavy metal) into single atoms and scatter you to the winds. It may or may not leave a greasy shadow on a wall.
As a for-instance, a bit over 20 tons' worth of TMI2's core vaporized during that accident. Went "missing" completely, never to be seen or heard from again. It went out as gas/vapor, and some early morning dairy farmers "tasted metal in the air." Because there was metal in the air. Lots of tonnage of heavy metals vaporized into the air from Daiichi's meltdowns. How much came from spent fuel pools is debatable, perhaps none. Doesn't matter unless MOX was in the fuel pool. Where it's merely degraded, maybe melted, but NOT vaporized. Same with all the rest of the plutonium in the spent fuel pools.
If you're tasting metal during a meltdown, you're ingesting metal. The isotopes at issue are just as dangerous as single atoms as they are as nano or dust sized chunks of mixed isotopes.
What is important now is to prevent any more from escaping, and that's impossible right now. It'll still be impossible decades from now. That's the deal with nukes – by the time you know there's a problem, you may already be doomed. You can't just whistle and call it all back. We need to insist they do what they can, but must understand there's not much they can do.
Besides, they don't care what any of us has to say about any of it. They'll do as they choose, tell us whatever's convenient. Or not.
Report Comment
Ok, Joy my point has always been that it is a physical impossibility that the blast from #3 came from anything but the core.
You refer to saying something different as "politics", I refer to it as "lying".
The instant someone says something that is a hard and fast physical impossibility it is a non-starter to me – as Kevin has found out time and again.
i also do not believe for a second that an explosion out of the pool would be anywhere close to as dangerous as one out of the core.
The studies I've seen say that nanometer particles of even very heavy metals can travel around the globe easily in the upper atmosphere – and I have looked at many stuides.
The problem is that I don't think anyone has studied Plutonium particles – I suspect those pesky politics are preventing it.
AGreenRoad actually published a summary on this very topic today:
It's worth a read.
http://agreenroad.blogspot.com/2012/02/what-really-happened-at-fukushima.html
And last – your comment that "they'll do as they choose" is probably true or at least has been in the past – but the only reason I spend my time here is that I believe it is time for that practice to end.
Report Comment
Uh oh – I linked to the wrong article by AGreenRoad.
I actually don't agree with the one linked above – however I do agree with this one:
http://agreenroad.blogspot.com/2012/03/how-dangerous-is-400-600-pounds-of.html
Report Comment
"Do as they choose" is politics 101, James. So is everything else related to this technology and this disaster. There is a reason that "Nuclear Scientists" – any application – are the wallflowers of the legitimate scientific community. An insular bunch, they are. Comes with the job.
They literally own entire governments. Including ours, though they share with their financier friends. Play the game in Iran or Pakistan or North Korea, anyone who pays in gold. That's politics, whole genocidal wars get fought about it. Just like with oil, only better in WMD terms…
They have the power to render life itself extinct on this planet, have been threatening that very thing every day of my life, so far. I actually do remember the Cuban Missile Crisis. Last time we were ever asked to do a "Duck and Cover" drill because everybody knew by then – including us 5th graders – it was pointless bullshit. So they 'gave' us Atoms for Peace. It was the same old same old Power at Play. Basic mob-style extortion – all it ever was until the damned things actually started melting fairly regularly and it cost real money.
The Power (itself) did this. It's bigger than any human, no matter how egotistical. Everything else is politics, and politics can make you "sick and tired" way before physics ever could. You aren't dealing in politics right now. Arnie is.
Report Comment
…and again, blow-out (with significant vaporization) of the core is a one-off event. Like a bomb blast. What's left in the pools is far more of an issue for your "nanometer" obsession than what happened last year to the core. That's all over and done with, we'll just have to live or die with it because nothing you say changes anything. The fuel pools are much more dangerous at this point in time.
Nobody who gets any form of cancer, radiation sickness, immune dysfunction, holey hearts or any other known health effect from what happened last year will ever be able to 'prove' in court that they're dying of unit-3's core blowing up instead of any other release from Daiichi. Honest. Those legal precedents are long established now. Politics, my friend. Sad but true.
The plutonium that's already gotten out is out. No one can retrieve it, no matter what form it's in. The danger now is the plutonium that remains. Best to take all measures to ensure it doesn't than fight about what's no longer there.
Report Comment
I just wished we knew. Thats been my thing all along.
Its how much plutonium is out there that really concerns me, amongst the 200 plus othere nasties.
A green roads stuff talks about 400 – 600lbs and I have seen this in various places.
I have hard time conceiving that.
Mostly because my prior to fukushima knowledge was that each reactor creates 500 lbs (some claims are kilograms so i am not exactly sure which) of plutomiun per year. Arnie has since claimed that approximately 10 years worth was in the pool. That means far more than 400 – 600 pounds of the stuff as I understand it.
Does anyone know if the source of the 400 – 600 lbs stuff is credible?
Even if only one years worth went up that is more than
Report Comment
So your point is Joy that the plutonium is out – nobody can prove it in court, its politics and we should just forget about it?
Did I get that right?
You are correct in the sense that whatever damage is done is done.
However you are incorrect about a few other things:
First off "they" who have "the power" have nothing more than you or I or the baby born yesterday in Japan. As humans we only have our life and our next breath – until we don't anymore. And to each of us, that is infinitely valuable and precious.
"They" only have power – because others give it to them – they only have money because others gave it to them – they are not special. – and that power really amounts to nothing if the others stop giving it to them.
"They" just got a small taste of what's coming at them over the sopa stuff. Unless "they" are computer programmers, "they" don't have any power anymore. They don't have any communications anymore. They don't have any money anymore. They don't have any weapons anymore – it's all in the computer…
I didn't have anything to do with the above, but here, I have given a small taste of what's coming to the idiot band of shills – one guy, sitting at a computer in the US, watching videos and photos of the disaster a couple hours a day can eat their lunch.
I can manipulate their actions. I can make them scared. I can negate their spending when they buy off "experts". I can disseminate information they don't want to let out. And I don't break a single law doing it, and there are 100's of others just like me.
The people have been duped about nuclear power. The people are tiring of being duped. The people are ready to change the model. And when the people want it changed, it will be changed. I, James will not change it. We at enenews may not change it, but mark these words, it will be changed.
Report Comment
Kevin, what difference would it make to your commitments and state of mind would it make if you knew how much plutonium went out of Daiichi, down to the last gram? Of what overweening 'importance' is that data point to what needs to be done about nukes?
Just so you know, more than 3.5 tons of plutonium were released to the atmosphere – and came to earth in fallout – by atmospheric bomb testing when I was a kid. It's still in the environment and will be for millions of years. Various accidents, bomb factories, breeder reactors, etc. have continued to contribute lots of plutonium to the environment as well. Yet it was the fission products – iodine, strontium, cesiums, etc. – that caused most of the "cancer epidemic" that finally led to the test ban treaty in 1963. Wiki link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutonium_in_the_environment
There's a lot of hyperbole around here about how we're all bound to die of Fukushima. Words like "Extinction Level Event" are tossed quite lightly on a regular basis. Whereas to me, the disaster at Fukushima is plenty bad enough to end the nuclear scam immediately if not sooner, but I don't expect to die from it. Don't expect anybody I know to die from it either, though no doubt many people will (if they don't die of something else first). Mostly in Japan.
Report Comment
We live in a dangerous world, grotesquely polluted with all sorts of nasty carcinogens and plain old poisons. We as animals run a considerable gauntlet to get to reproductive age, but since there are 6+ billion of us I'd say we're pretty successful overall. But whether we live a year, 10 years, 25 years, 50 years or even 105 years, we will all die in the end. The death rate is 100% in all generations. That's life.
I used to splash in mud puddles as a kid after rains, some of them were giving off 10 rem gamma at the time. I used to run behind the DDT Jeep with my siblings and friends to play in the nifty fog. Every evening during the summer. I spent a few years working in and living near nuclear plants that burped regularly. I smoked for 30 years too. Yet damned if I'm not still here. Go figure…
Humans as a group are pretty tough critters. Some are more vulnerable than others of course, that's evolution for you. Because I have met Death up close and very uncomfortable, I like to think that all lives are complete. A beginning, a middle, an end. It's not the date of birth or how you die that matters, it's what you do with that whole "middle" part that comes in between.
Working to end the whole nuclear scam our world has been burdened with for way too long is a fine way to spend one's time. But if it's too scary and personally threatening to deal with rationally, you'd be better off doing any number of other worthwhile things with your time. Because life's always too short, no matter how long you live, and precious time should not be wasted.
Report Comment
James, my point is the plutonium is out and no one can call it back. I'm sure some of those who get cancer from the disaster at Fukushima will get compensation in court if the government allows lawsuits, but no one will be able to pin it on this or that particular isotope of plutonium. It would be silly to even try, because it doesn't really matter. Enough contamination got out to cause cancer. That's all any legal system will be asked to determine on that level.
You're right about power, and I hope enough people learn this so we can end the nuclear con game as quickly as possible. Daiichi is an excellent weapon to use in that struggle, so it will be used by all who are capable of using it. Arnie's just one of 'em. And yes, the biggest best-kept 'secret' in the exclusive boardrooms of our greedy corporatocracy is that technicians ("the servants") really run the world. Now we need more technicians to understand that.
Report Comment
James I don't think Arnie is trying to intentionally mislead anyone and I for one applaud him and his wife, Maggie and think it is terrible what they have endured. Having said that please read the following which explains what happened at 3 Reactor http://iangoddard.com/fukushima01.html
Report Comment
Then what went flying up a few thousand feet if it wasnt the well cap?
Report Comment
The well cap is cracked but still there.
Report Comment
Stock and Joy,
Stock,it is oddly mysterious. At number three, I have not seen it, but Goddard's analysis claims the cap is there and "cracked," hmmm, some have even said that it landed back on top! Seeing that explosion it seems odd that if it was the core that caused that big explosion that the cap would be in the vicinity, let alone land back on top!
And at 4 it was set aside apparently. Yet it is clearly visible, but the four foot thick walls around it are gone! So somehow a cap not bolted down managed to stay put but the reinforced concrete walls blewout
And Joy, with respect to your comment above about the amount of plutonium released. (that thread has no response button so I am addressing it here) It is not so much my state of mind, for that I would prefer not to know, as you say there are already tones of plutonium floating around. I think it is an important point in presenting how dangerous these nukes are when an accident releases what could be more than all the plutonium released by all the bombs tested. Its another arrow in the quiver to take them out. And it could be an astronomically huge amount given that 500lbs a year of pu is created by the average reactor and the pool held at least 10 years worth of spent fuel – according to Gunderson, possibly as high as twenty. I know we have seen lower figures in terms of numbers of rods, however those numbers are estimates by our friends at Scientific American (at the least the ones I seen) and i find it odd that we have to rely on 'estimates" from a magazine and not real data from the source.
Also Stock your stuff says between 4-600lbs, which I have seen before, however how did you come to that conclusion?
Report Comment
I had thought there were 40 years of spent fuel rods.
Report Comment
Kevin, my 413 lbs is a low ball, it is based on using my lowest estimate for Uranium dispersion at per EPA RADNET data, and then using Table 1– .89% Pu weight in spent fuel, however, I later found out that MOX fuel is heavily enriched plutonium, like 5% to 10% of total weight.
There could have been 5 tons of plutonium floating in atmosphere if it really was Reactor 3 that sky highed.
Report Comment
Here is the calcs
If you haven't REALLY read them you should. It is the death blow to nuke for anyone who understands it.
http://www.box.com/files/0/f/0/1/f_1379526735#/files/1/f/0/1/f_1379526735/0/comment
Report Comment
James2,
I think when Arnie first started arguing for the #3SFP prompt criticality analysis it was back in March 2011, and so at the time it was his own independent analysis that was in direct confrontation with what the nuke industry was then saying, which was, that they were all hydrogen explosions. and many people wished to believe them then, that only the exterior containment had been breached, etc. now no one should ever believe them again. clearly the preponderance of evidence is now towards full core ejection from the #3 reactor core, correct? However, this is not to say the SFP could not also have been involved. Whether it was the reactor core or the SFP, or a combo,a high-temp explosion would aerosolize and powderize most of the heavy metals, like plutonium and uranium, making these insoluble microscopic particulates that much easier to breathe in for the next 240,000 years. In other words, bad news for the boys in blue, all future Japanese generations, and most of the rest of humanity, no matter where the fuel exploded FROM. Fukushima plutonium particles are in Lithuania! They didn't get there going West.
Report Comment
Gunderson did much of the original analysis of that explosion as I recall, so he may be sticking to it because of that. I don't think he is working for THEM, and I think both he and his wife have a lot of guts. Why not work on Yankee in their own back yard in addition to Fukushima? Arnie is not as strident as we might like, but scientists lose their reputations with strident, and keep them with cool. The man appears to me to be a very careful scientist, with a high level of integrity. I would like to hear a lot more of his analysis of the recent NRC revelations though.
Report Comment
YES.
Report Comment
I see no reason to contradict Arnie Gunderson. However, I have a disgareement with using meerly when referencing the spent fuel. Spent fuel is not exhausted fuel like the ashes when you burn wood. Spent fuel is fuel that has gone through enough reactions that the contents are difficult to model and therefore risky to try to control. Spent fuel will contain many different daughter products and portions will be more radioactive than before usage.
Also, any fuel that is still in the reactor core but has already experienced chain reactions in operation will be partially spent. So neither the core nor the spent fuel has anything in it that you want to put on your ice cream cone.
I have to side with Arnie on this if that is his belief with the level of knowledge that he has.
Report Comment
Remember one of his last vids…he was to talk about Fukushima..and wound up talking about the Vermont Yankee..?
The "send up"..already in place all around….
I'll say this..Half truths are not worth one's life…
Report Comment
Well, out of fairness, will have to have a look at those if more recent than what I'd seen.
Report Comment
You know he's right by the lengths the industry will go to silence him. Boycott all things General Electric for starters.
Report Comment
Wow. I had no idea. Yes that does explain why he speaks so carefully. This reminds me of an old saying, used by the folks who did hard jail time for resisting nuclear weapons: 'When you kick the bomb really hard, it hurts.'
Kudos to the Gundersens. Thank you.
Report Comment
TEPCO published they would SUE ANYONE who published anything contrary to their Fukushima storyline from Day One.
How then could anyone not see how much therefore, Arnie HAS spoken to us all about?
There are the critiques demanding so much more, but ask yourself, maybe has this man already done a lot?
Give him credit for what he contributes.
For him to not proceed without regard for the pain in the past for doing the same would not make him a very smart man.
I understand him getting out to us what he can – when he can.
Report Comment
Amen! Anthony. Well said. We need flexibility and understanding, not dogmatism and condemnation.
And furthermore, I am not a shillllllll!!!!!
Report Comment
Me neither dharmasyd!!!
Report Comment
Now…here is your cold corium pancake…LOL.
Report Comment
To me this isn't a very funny matter. Though pretty much all the other reports on this site are not funny either, yet there are so many attempts at humor for some reason.
Report Comment
Dont see what you are saying in this thread.
IT seems you found the one attempt at humour in the thread at this point.
Regardless, this disclosure of Arnies trials and tribulations that resulted in his "whistleblower" status does little to alter the role he has fulfilled in the Fukushima diaster. Love em or hate em, he is fulfilling a role.
I was on the Arnie train for a long time, even posted a letter here I wrote to a large paper in support of him.
However with Fukushima, his positioning, while nuanced and subtle, bore out that as far blowing any whistles, he would be doing so much like a referee in a soccer game. Blowing whistles and handing out cards, but still very much part of the game.
Report Comment
Did I say there was more than one attempt at humor in this thread? No. I specifically referenced "other reports on this site" containing attempts at humor. Please read carefully before commenting again.
Report Comment
I did read it carefully and what you infer was simply not that easy to pick up from your comments.
In fact, what you are saying is very difficult to understand entirely.
The point I was trying to make is that you are not clear in this response. Which is odd, as you rarely commment and when you do it is pretty precise an succinct, not so in this case.
hunour is often applied for a variety of reasons, most are positive, or in the least used to alleviate the seriousness of the topic, so it is therefor unclear why you seem to be chastising someone for using it, yet the constant attacks and clever nudge, nudge, wink, wink, look at the shill stuff gets overlooked.
Anyhow I am not interested in making a big deal out of this, just did not understand the point you were trying to get at which is not often the case with your offerings.
Report Comment
"To me this isn't a very funny matter. Though pretty much all the other reports on this site are not funny either, yet there are so many attempts at humor for some reason."
Let me be very clear:
1) "To me this isn't a very funny matter."
To me this info about what Gundersen went through isn't a very funny matter.
2) "Though pretty much all the other reports on this site are not funny either"
The reports I post on ENENews are not funny.
3) "Yet there are so many attempts at humor for some reason"
Though the reports I post on ENENews are not funny, people make many ATTEMPTS at humor in the comments section for some reason.
———————
If you're going to make a joke out of a very serious and sensitive situation, take care to make it tasteful and productive.
No response needed.
Report Comment
I would be serious about it to since the kind of people who did that to Arnie can't be so happy with websites like this
Report Comment
Good instinct.
However my observation is that admin here is pretty astute in these matters.
I cant see any exposure he has not clearly considered and accommodated.
Report Comment
Uh, can you clarify your apparent lack of position on this matter to be defined.
Report Comment
come on, Kev
Report Comment
Come on?
TEPCO threatens SLAPPS.
Wow, that is something new isnt it? (not)
Arnie has often, actually quite often, reported contrary to the TEPCO line and has often suggested both them and the NRC are not to be trusted.
Heart, ties that to the cold pancake. Not a stretch and a little humourous.
I dont know maybe there is something I am missing, but if not talking about SLAPP suits is a rule of thumb we are in a lot of trouble.
In fact activists have often used slapp suits as the catalyst to raise an issues profile.
If your in the game, you can be silenced slapps… I mean come on…
Report Comment
As we try to make sense of this human experience, sometimes we laugh or we will cry. I remember early on that someone posted about Millie Sieverts attending a church social with green jello. I have enjoyed the attempts at humor and respect human creativity in all it's forms. I also appreciate the fact that you created this space. Peace.
Report Comment
"attempts at humor for some reason". Indeed. A recent theory is that humor evolved because it strengthens the ability of the brain to find mistakes in active belief structures, that is, to detect mistaken reasoning.
Hurley, Matthew M., Dennet, Daniel C., and Adams, Reginald B. Jr. (2011). Inside Jokes: Using Humor to Reverse-Engineer the Mind. The MIT Press. ISBN 9780262015820.
Report Comment
note 'humor' vs 'attempts at humor'
this is my last comment on this thread folks.
basically if you're going to make a joke out of a very serious and sensitive situation make sure it is tasteful and productive.
Report Comment
Dear Admin,
I am daily impressed by Heart of the Rose's ability to say in 4 words what takes me 563.
She has the brevity of wit that escapes me. I find "Now here…is your corium pancake" to be a tasteful and productive 6 word formulation that cuts to the heart of the matter, for me.
What "nuclear watchdog" has done more to support Tepco's fantasy of a "cold shutdown" than Gundersen with his presentation of the "cold pancakes" of corium?
This has material effects. For example, a boy I love is now drinking milk again because of Gundersen's presentation, and the extra cesium and iodine from Fukushima in that milk will most likely negatively affect his heart and thyroid, etc. His mother gave him the milk again because Gundersen implied that the corium is cold, and Fukushima is in the past tense.
The fact that Gundersen had a foreclosure, etc. and was persecuted in the past won't heal the holes in my innocent boy's heart.
Report Comment
@NoNukes
"I am daily impressed by Heart of the Rose's ability to say in 4 words what takes me 563."
I agree. Heart always has something cogent to say and says it in few words.
Report Comment
It is not an attempt for humor, but LEVITY.
99% of all posts on all blogs are bullshit anyway.
There are morons that are dead serious about the GOP race like it was life or death. Even the occasional sports fan goes crazy over nonsense.
As far as arnie goes, I don't like his demeaner during interviews. Too plastic, too fake almost political. But any serious contenders for truth seem to vaporize or fade away.
Heart and Jill are people I would like to meet and live, laugh and love a little. Live is short, so enjoy what's left.
Report Comment
I agree, simply stated, if a joke hurts someone it is not funny. Having said that it is difficult to use sarcasm on this forum and one must think before they type. I know I have posted messages in haste that I wish I could delete. Okay, this is not sticking with the topic concerning my heroes. Once again THANK YOU Maggie and Arnie Gundersen.
Report Comment
Humor is essential and is commonly used to deal with extremely stressful life events. I for one have always tried to maintain a sense of humor and without it would be a miserable mess. Yes, it is important to use discretion but I strongly feel humor is advantageous when used appropriately. In fact I still get a chuckle out of the simplistic line, "liar, liar, plants on fire." The most important thing is to respect each other, remain civil, and always try to do the right thing by not finding fault or pinning blame and making excuses. It's easy to know what is right to do or say but I tend to constantly find reasons as to why I should not act or help when I know in my heart what is right and that I am making excuses and lose my way of being or rather the person I strive to be.
Report Comment
@moonshellblue
I agree. I remember a disaster in my youth. I opened the cedar chest where I had stored my winter clothes. Moths had eaten through so much that they all looked like Swiss cheese. This was an unmitigated disaster since I could not afford to replace them and knew I would be going cold that winter, yet I laughed and laughed until I cried. It's still funny to me.
Report Comment
Yes, I was homeless at age 14, my mother died and my father threw me out of his car one day because I offended his new wife. He never came back thus I had to hitchhike but long story short, I had to sleep in a strangers backyard and their dog started barking, the owner came out in his underwear with a shotgun and to this day I still chuckle about his appearance on the back porch and laugh because if he had only known it was just a young girl trying to find refuge in the thicket of his backyard. Needless to say I cautiously inched my way out to once again hit the road. What a long strange trip it's been. My adolescence plays like a very long unreal Lifetime movie. I'm smiling right now reminiscing.
Report Comment
Alot of this stuff, it's either laugh or cry. I find myself often doing both. Sometimes at the same time.
Report Comment
Human stress adaptation strategy.
Report Comment
Horay for all you've done to put the brakes on atomic power. Arnie Gundersen is my hero. When we needed to know the science behind what was happening, Arnie was there for us. When we needed to hear the engineering that went into designing containments (that contain nothing), Arnie was there. When we needed to know that the engineers put control rods up through the bottom of the reactors, as if to provide holes for the melted corium to go ex reactor, Arnie was there. He has made the entire industry look like the foolish little boys they are. How many engineers does it take to design an atomic plant? Only one bad one. Keep it up, Arnie. I only wish you had time to do more! Much love to you.
Report Comment
Any attempts at humor here… is sarcasm..at least on my part..
Why would I find this funny?
I find the concept that Mr.Gundersen..will
have more of a chance.. of projecting a version of the situation in Fukushima..that has little to do with my own…frustrating.
… I shall make no further comments…concerning this issue.
Report Comment
I'm thankful for all the info Gundersen has given, and think everyone, and every student, should study his vids. They need to know about all the cancers that will happening in Japan, the US, and beyond …all because of one nuke plant. And about the dangerous rain-outs (that are happening around the globe right now). And the accumulation of radiation in the Cascades, etc, etc.
Report Comment
Just one more comment since this thread has had its share of fine praise and some castigation for a man I don't know if anyone here has spent much personal time talking to.
Thinking back on this crisis and the early videos of Arnie…he was calm and measured. But today I get the feeling he knows oh so much more about exactly how the damage is going to play out for Japan's people and others affected.
And why shouldn't he? He has a tremendous background in nuclear matters so perhaps he is holding back some future predictions because he knows it doesn't matter. The crisis is so off the charts that the reality will sink in over several years. And Arnie jumping up and down on a protest line isn't going to sway the opinions of the people currently in power.
But over time…as Tepco's leadership dissolves from the magnitude of the nation's distrust and Americans begin to learn bits and pieces of what has happened…the anti-nuke movement will remember Arnie as a Phoeneix who rose from the ashes of his own personal destruction at the hands of the scumbags who tried to ruin his life 30 years ago.
It won't even be the sheep of the world who will throw out the old guard. They will slumber for the most part as always except for the poor martyred folks in Japan who will become more and more militant as they live out their shortend and tortured existence in a post-Fukushima toxic environment.
Nuclear cabals will fall from within as money cutbacks kill their cushy jobs, and their financial futures will be ruined. Dictators and bankers will punish these folks, probably not as badly as we would prefer, but they will be flotsam in a disgraced industry. Perhaps they can get a job driving a truck like Arnie…maybe carrying hot waste rods to wherever the final nuclear waste dumping ground is located…it might even be in an empty toxic Japan…who knows?
They fear that worse than the fear they killed millions of people. Karma can be a real bitch sometimes.
Report Comment
I agree. "I get the feeling he knows oh so much more about exactly how the damage is going to play out for Japan's people and others affected."
"…perhaps he is holding back some future predictions because he knows it doesn't matter. The crisis is so off the charts that the reality will sink in over several years."
…and if he knows, then so do our so called political leaders. By the time 'common folk' realize the scope of this debacle it will be too late.
"Slacktivism" is what they're counting on.
Report Comment
J2,
We all have our own opinions, so I`ll not argue with your`s about Arnie..
However, your feeling that a core ejection would be worse than a SFP ejection..
The SFP has an average of 3 times the SAME fuel as the core..
A criticality created ejection from the SFP would indeed pulverize fuel, just like in the core.. SAME fuel, just lots more…
If the core ejected, why is the well cap still on it???
Why were there girders still intact above the core, but a huge hole above the Fuel Pool???
Same fuel, less moderation, more of it..
Remove the water, and an SFP would create less diluted corium, with nearly zero moderation, in an empty swimming pool..
A pressure explosion, like in a core…No
A prompt criticality generated explosion.. Possible..
Either the core or the SFP is just as deadly in the end…
Report Comment
your a brave soulk w8r.
Expect the unending rath.
I concur as I have repeatedly stated but would aslo point out that the pool in all liklihood held more plutonium and presented a bigger risk than the core.
This nuanced thing about the core ejecting a finer particulate is interesting and goes a long way to address its potential to cover greater distances, however exploding plutonium in the pool is not going to be a whole lot different, especially if the mox as in there as well. Which seems to be another point of contention.
Report Comment
W8R – You are incorrect about this.
100% of the research I've been doing for now 1 year is on this exact topic.
It's not the same fuel at all in the SFP and the Core – not even close – the atoms are the same – but the form factor is totally different – and that makes all the difference..
The core contained 32 assemblies of MOX, which was I think 9% plutonium. Those assemblies are created by grinding the plutonium and uranium into nanometer powder – about 100x as fine as powdered sugar and compressing them into pellets and making the rods.
The spent fuel was uranium that had some plutonium produced during the fission process – no powder – no mixing – the plutonium is embedded into the solid Uranium.
What comes out of an exploding fuel pool is chunks of heavy metals – which will land nearby and sink in the ocean. What comes out of exploding MOX rods is plutonium and uranium powder so fine it will go everywhere – think of exploding 50 tons of powdered sugar.
The first is really bad for the environment; The second is devastating for life on earth.
This is why what Arnie did in covering this up is so egregious
Well I don't think I really need to answer the questions about whether it was the core or not – since it's been confirmed over an over again – but – here goes:
The well cap is not still on it. It's gone.
The "girders" above the core are the crane and the roof beams. Look at the explosion video again – and listen to the sound – listen for the beams crashing back down at the end in a heap on top of the pile. The roof beams actually contained what had been a perfectly round hole – exactly in the location they would have been above the core – after they flopped back down on the wreckage.
The explosion came out perfectly vertical – it would not have come out vertical from a pool – think of a firework coming out of a tube versus coming out of a box – one goes straight up – one spreads
No way the core or…
Report Comment
The SFP would be the same deadliness.
This is the most important single question of the entire disaster – did the core blow MOX powder into the jetstream or not.
Report Comment
This is nice, short and sweet.
I agree, the explosion at three, reaching the jet stream and sending the nasty stuff on a great journey through the Norhtern Hemisphere is the primary concern.
That said, my concern has rested more with the sfp, becuase it contains more plutonium than the core. There has been no defnitive way to determine what went up in that explosion, nor what caused it, nor whether it was in the core or pool.
However recently a video analysis was posted here that claims the cap is still on the reactor. Now I dont consider the video to be definitive, but if it is accurate then we know the core reaching jet stream heights with the cap still in place is less likely.
Either way, something went up and would be nice to know becuase I agree with your assesment that it is the most important single aspect of the disaster.
Report Comment
If you set 50 tons of lead anvils over a large explosive charge under them in a concrete box – they would go up and come down – maybe even parts of them could be found miles away.
if you shot 50 tons of lead powder which is 100 times finer than powdered sugar – out of the barrel of a large howitzer vertically – the stuff would go up and probably would come down halfway around the world.
Except in this case it's deadly plutonium not lead.
That's the importance of getting this right.
And PS. The spent fuel rods don't contain anything near 9% plutonium – that's why plutonium is so difficult to make.
Report Comment
Thanks James, I am not sure about the 9% figure of why you bring it up.
All I know is that when the explosion went up and I learned the pool was adjacent, my first thought was, hmmm the average reactor creates 250kg of plutonium a year and Uncle Arnie says there is 10 years worht in there….
Not good.
Report Comment
Hmm always thought SFP's were more of a concern versus fresh reactor cores. I will have to look into it again but I do recall reading that somewhere.
Report Comment
Nope – remember all the news is being manipulated.
The SFP's do have more fuel volume wise – especially SFP4.
The MOX in #3 core is the single most dangerous aspect of the whole thing. Unless they have lied to us and they had MOX ready to go into the core of #4.
Report Comment
http://iangoddard.com/fukushima01.html I think it was a steam explosion from the reactor core and the well cap landed back on after the explosion. Ahhh, Ian Goddard explains…..
Report Comment
The GOddard link comes up blank for me, but something really odd happened to my computer last night. After the long thread exposing the coverup my browser miraculously "upgraded" itself! I woke up to a new browser!
Now that browser does not show this goddard link I have not seen other anomalies as of yet.
That said, does Goddard say that the reactor exploded and the cap landed back on!!! Now that is is a miracle in physics I would like to see explained! lol
Report Comment
I think that by the unique rods in the rubble in video that they were actually doing some experimental stuff at those plants, and that the French were involved.
I would give it 50% chance.
Report Comment
Yes but it was a steam explosion emanating from the excess water in the melting reactor core which lifted the well cap lid resulting in a hydrogen explosion at the top of the containment building.
Report Comment
James2. Good work. What happened as #3 exploded was that the reactor went up, taking the containment cap with it. The point is that the #3 explosion contained MOX fuel from the reactor core, the very 'worst case' the PTB said would have resulted in a decision to evacuate Tokyo. But TEPCO only mentions MOX as being used to refuel reactor #4 at the time of the accident. The daughter products of this MOX explosion are now being found all over the world, and cannot be hidden. Tokyo and much of Japan was heavily contaminated by #3 going up. If an evacuation would have taken place immediately, perhaps, some of the ongoing internal exposure to MOX might have been avoided. But perhaps the PTB knew then that the population in Tokyo was already doomed, and that the economic cost of evacuation was prohibitive in any case. The evacuation of greater Tokyo would have done little good at that point.
I have wondered about #4, since you mention it. When this all comes out, I believe the #4 reactor was fully fueled with MOX and ready to go with the containment cap on. It was just not operating on 311.
Report Comment
I don't think #4 had the cap on at the time of the accident – the photos I've seen show the yellow containment cap stored near the edge of the reactor floor and I think I remember seeing one with the reactor cap stored as well.
The logs say there was no fuel in R4 and no MOX in SFP4. I don't have any evidence that is untrue, but I'm skeptical on the latter at least.
They did actually abandon the entire facility for probably 24 hours after the #3 explosion and whatever happened at #4 was building during that time.
Report Comment
J2: That SFP4 had in it new MOX fuel for the reactor comes from TEPCO's own review of the status of each reactor. They ran their own daily update for awhile. If you run across that photo which shows container cap and reactor cap of #4 in storage, please post under general discussion here. Many thanks.
Report Comment
Here are detailed pictures of the containment cap at #4 taken about a month after the accident – about the 4th picture down:
http://cryptome.org/eyeball/daiichi-npp9/daiichi-photos9.htm
Notice the bolts are loose and the lifting fixture is attached to the top of it, so I'm pretty sure it wasn't on the reactor at the time of the accident.
As I recall someone found the reactor cap in there somewhere too but it's much more difficult to spot.
As I said, I would be surprised that there wasn't any MOX ready to go into that reactor – I didn't see it on the daily updates you mention, but in the fuel inventories they clearly stated there was no MOX – so they apparently lied – I hate to say that's normal, but that's normal.
Report Comment
This one also troubles me.
If that cap was off when it blew the walls out, how on earth did the cap stay in its upright storage position?
I highly doubt its bolted down when set aside.
Report Comment
J2, do you know how they make UOX fuel? Pretty much the same process, different isotopes. Ever encountered the term "fuel failure"? That's when the pellets of fuel in the rods crumbles back into powder. That causes hot spots along the rod, where the lousy cladding welds then split. Releasing the finely powdered fuel into the reactor coolant. To (hopefully) be ion-bound by engineered resins when the coolant goes through the demineralizer/polisher. Many of the fission products also released when this happens are not bound by the resins, but remain in the coolant as compressed gases. These get 'bled' when the pressure goes down, and stored in tanks off the letdown/makeup routes. Others end up being released to water or atmosphere. The nuclear answer to pollution and regulations is the same as every other dirty industry – if it's really hot, just release it slower.
…and all that's just what is known to happen with fair regularity in NORMALLY OPERATING nuclear plants. Getting fuel pellets of any ratio to crumble into fine dust isn't hard. Just run things hot for a little while…
Report Comment
The main difference is the fineness of the powder. The reason MOX has to be ground to such a fine level is so that it can be mixed very evenly, otherwise they get very uneven "burn" rates.
Report Comment
You may be right, I don't know that much about specific parameters of the 'sludge' they mix with paddles in barrels as if they were cooking mash for whiskey or something. Just that the 'sludge' is made of particles small enough to beat porcelain slip by a long shot.
Do live just about a hundred miles south of Nuclear Fuel Services in Erwin, TN. NFS used to just make fuel for the Navy, then got shut down for a few years after getting caught contaminating the area water, land and air so bad that not even DOD could ignore it anymore. They recently re-opened and now get to fabricate all sorts of nifty fuel mixtures. They long ago proved they weren't the least bit trustworthy or careful to follow the directions. Every bit as sloppy an enterprise as every other aspect of the nuclear fuel cycle from mining to spent fuel. I certainly wouldn't trust ANY fabricator anywhere in the world to be able to deliver this type of mixture on-spec, so there shouldn't be any.
That said, regular old 5% 235/238 reactor fuel has tricky enough specs for a certain percentage of it to fail regularly. Only once that I know of did the entire core get put together so sloppily and so far outside basic specs that the subsequent failures led to a major nuclear accident (TMI2). That particular core sold cheap off the Kerr-McGee back lot after having twice failed inspection and was actually returned as defective by the first utility buyer. GPU got a helluva deal on it for their brand new nuke…
Nukes are so terminally stooooopid on all levels that sometimes it's hard to believe humans are still allowed to play with the technology at all. Introducing ever more dangerous aspects is all part of the game. They don't care what we think about it and never will. No matter what kind of 'bombshell' you think you've got on 'em.
Report Comment
Fukushima Cancer Risk Underestimated,Arnie Gunderson & Ian Goddard [full version]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFMAT8D6mOA
Report Comment
Japan Expert: It was a nuclear explosion at Reactor No. 3 — I believe fuel rods were blown out of spent fuel pool
http://enenews.com/alert-japan-expert-nuclear-explosion-reactor-3-believe-fuel-rods-blown-spent-fuel-pool
“Cause of important radioactivity scattering is the spent fuel pool…
“As for the building upper frame, the place of the spent fuel pool has blown off. Explosion happens inside the pool, the fuel rod which is there that it scattered, is thought
“But, the spent fuel melting even if, accumulating under, will nuclear explosion probably occur as expected with that?
“3 inside the fuel pool of the machine, until explosion occurs, the chilled water decreases, hydrogen occurs with the zircaloy water reaction. The clad tube of the upper part dissolving, as for the pellet in block destroying state. The inside of the pool the reactor to a considerable degree, becoming critical state with small output, it is thought that the water boiled. And, with pool above water one hydrogen explosion. Boiling underwater void (vapor) compresses by the pressure. Because void reactivity coefficient is 0, reactivity of fission increased at a stroke, prompt critical nuclear explosion occurred. When 3 slow motion video of machine explosion is seen, blast pronunciation is audible 3 times. This, after the hydrogen explosion is the evidence which nuclear explosion occurs…”
http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zakzak.co.jp%2Fzakspa%2Fnews%2F20111213%2Fzsp1112130929001-n1.htm&lp=ja_en&btnTrUrl=Translate
Report Comment
福島第一 Fukushima ☢ Nuclear Blast?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q3ljfLvHww&context=C3cecd73ADOEgsToPDskJYQfpIpDVmh02bNFYL_aev
Report Comment
http://iangoddard.com/fukushima01.html
Report Comment
No joke, Arnie sent me that one in the email a few months back.
Report Comment
I think Arnie and Ian Goddard exchange thoughts periodically and will be releasing a video soon containing the info posted on Ian Goddards site. Once again Ian is quite talented and I recommend viewing his artwork.
Report Comment
Arnie Gundersen Update 01/07/11: New Analysis of Unit 3 Fuel Pool Video Reveals Top of Fuel Bundle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uw5Cg75JExA
Report Comment
yes, please watch this video – one of the ones that is very suspicious.
you see where the video zooms in and Arnie describes the handle of "single bundle only" and goes on and on about there are no other..
ANOTHER HANDLE IS CLEARLY VISIBLE JUST TO THE LEFT OF THE ONE THE VIDEO HIGHLIGHTS – IN THE EXACT LOCATION IT SHOULD BE.
It took two seconds to see. Either Arnie needs to get glasses, or he has an agenda going on.
Report Comment
Does two bundle handles amongst a wreck indicate the pool is fine?
Not to my mind.
Also the second bundle handle is less discernable than the more obvious one. Either way I think the video proves the pool was disrupted by the explosion not the other way around.
Report Comment
So you confirm the second handle? Good. Yeah, it's less visible because the first one has been visually enhanced .
Can you confirm the others that are visible? If you go back to the source video they are there.
Why didn't Arnie retract the statement when his core thesis was proven wrong two months ago? Why did he make a video which was so easily disproven with simple observation? Why would Anne still try to use this video as proof today, when I pointed out the flaw two months ago?
Is that fishy to you???
Everything about #3 was "disrupted" in the explosion: This was an open top pool that got tons of junk rained down on it from an exploding building – it's amazing it withstood the explosion – no one would expect it to look pristine.
Report Comment
I am not confriming anything, because I cannot.
The questions you raise would have to be addressed by Arnie.
The whole issue for me is that, now even a year later, we still dont have anything that confirms what happened at three. That in itself is disturbing, very disturbing.
The whole thing is fishy to me.
When you listen to the amount of attention all the nuke heads put on these issues at the very beginning you can guarantee that they discerned by now what the hell really happened and it is troubling, but of course completely expected that they do not disclose but rather carry on with the fairy tale that all the explosions were hydrogen explosions that left the pools and reactors in tact.
Report Comment
hey guys,
I haven't posted since the early days but i read the site daily. I just wanted to say if you watch the video you can see the orange explosion over the spent fuel pool, and you can see a large heavy object going up and falling down from more towards the center. Unless one of you folks wants to go stick your head in there to get a better look and confirm the status of unit 3, I think it is prudent to assume that the majority of both the spent fuel pool AND the core were blown sky high. That is going to remain my assumption until there is some definitive proof otherwise.
I should add that I think it is probably reasonable to assume that at least some of both the spent fuel and the core are still there – which would explain all that smoke we see on the videos of the wreckage.
Last thing: After the accident there was a major attempt by the industry to downplay the severity of the situation, and a lot of comparisons made by shills who suggested that Fukushima was closer in scale to 3MI than to Chernobyl. It was Arnie G. who came out and said Fukushima was "like Chernobyl on steroids." He was the ONLY person in the mainstream media telling us the truth at that time, so show some respect. Arnie is NOT the enemy. Trashing him does NOTHING to improve your credibility, but it DOES do a great job of dividing this awesome anti-nuke community, and who would want that to happen?
thats my 2 cents,
OaktownMeltdown in California
Report Comment
Worth a lot more than two cents!!
Report Comment
Welcome back
Report Comment
Good points all, Oaktown, perfectly agreeable and the underpinning to why I have never "trashed" Arnie.
That said, others here and myself have repeatedly stated that any information from any source should be met with a critical mind, that is not a cynical mind, but a critical one. Arnie is no different than anyone else in this regard. I have stated many times that I fully appreciate Arnie and no doubt his profile on the issue has opened eyes that would have otherwise been sealed shut by the well coordinated and executed cover up. But as you say this is an anti nuke community and we if are ever going to achieve objectives of such a community self appointed leaders like Arnie with profiles that he has established need to be prompted and at times pressured in order to right the track we are on.
Thanks for your post.
Report Comment
Bravo Oaktown!
Report Comment
There was MOX both in the reactor and in the spent fuel pool of reactor #3. With a nuclear explosion why wouldn't all the fuel have gone into the atmosphere, both from the SFP and the reactor? There were three different explosions heard, if the sound is real and hasn't been added to the video.
Report Comment
All the records I've seen say there was no MOX in the SFP3. It could be a lie, however the NRC FOIA's say the same thing.
If there was, then they didn't have authorization for it to be there and that could be why it burned so much in December through today.
Report Comment
Apparently they started using MOX late summer 2010 at Fuku #3, how long would it be before that fuel was sent to the SFP? Assuming of course this info is accurate…..which may be a bit of a stretch….
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/newsarticle.aspx?id=28211
Report Comment
what is the most likely source of lithuania's fuku pluto?
Report Comment
I do believe LOTS did launch. Spent a few hours doing calcs that proved it beyond a shadow of a doubt.
http://nukeproffesional.blogspot.com/p/uranium-aerosolized-into-atmosphere.html
Its important, the nukers says plants can't blow up, this proved that we been poisoned with plutonium, I am mad.
Report Comment
No stock, you are not mad. plutonium was aerosolized along with the uranium and fine particulates traveled and still travel the jet stream.
Report Comment
Hehe, I can still find humor in that comment. Just walking my dog today at a nice park throwing frisbee, sun going down, kids playing soccer, great view over Pearl Harbor….and I thought….I wonder just how bad that PU crap is. PU from the Plutocracy.
Report Comment
A recent post by admin from the BRC says no mox was anywhere else but in the core of three. However others have stated things differently and in fact some have speculated that 4 might even have mox, so again no definitve way of knowing for sure.
With respect to the single fuel bundle handle Arnie posts his video on. Obviously ancient knowledge now, but this is what set me off about the fuel pool at three. That bundle handle being where it was and all alone seems to indicate a serious problem with the fuel racks in that pool. Arnie points this out himself and says it raises more questions than answers and I agree. When I saw this it seemed a pretty clear indication that SFP 3 was severely impacted by the explosion, however it is difficult to speculate if that one bundle is an example of very few left in the pool after the explosion or one that raised up and away from the rest in racks that are lower. Either way it is indicitive of the pool being disrupted by the explosion.
Report Comment
Indeed, how can anyone know even for sure even what a film shows….misinformation is a tactic, misunderstand is human. Miscommunication is amazing in its abilities.
Every bit of data must be at first treated with suspicion
Report Comment
Thank you for that important reminder.
Report Comment
This thread is starting to imitate a Rorschach picture. I see this, I see that. We are screwed here. No matter who's right about the fuel pool.
As far as Arnie goes, I knew so little about any of this last March, and I've learned from him. For that, he gets my thanks.
The only thing I'm real black or white about here is the need to shut these death machines down.
Report Comment
I agree, PoorDaddy! How's the time to shut them down. (The NPPs that is.)
BTW: Got any new music videos to share? Love your music!
Report Comment
Oops! "Now's the time" not "How's"
My "auto complete" mode on my phone's keyboard isn't always the most accurate. ;-D LOL
Report Comment
Wow, I don't know how anybody can actually type a post on a phone keyboard. I screw up on my full size keyboard!
Thanks about the songs….no new ones for now. They always end up a little x-rated cuz I get pissed in the middle of the process.
Report Comment
LOL I hear ya, PoorDaddy.
Maybe you and Or-Well can collaborate on a new song together? You make a good duo! Peace and happy music-making to you.
Report Comment
#3 was a (barely certified) MOX reactor, which used MOX fuel…
Exactly WTF do you think was in its Fuel Pool???
So many times I see people perceive the core to be the worse element in the equation. It isnt…
Also, the "roof beams" are girders relative to an average building..
I am quite able to define between roof beams, crane gantry, etc…
Especially since Tepco so nicely color coded the place…
The fuel crane and gantry are a nice green color…
So, if you look at the pics from above, you can clearly see there is a hole where the SFP should be.. How much force to blow a hole in all the structure above the pool???
This wasnt #1 folks, this was a reinforced structure..
Hydrogen didnt blow a hole in that..
A hole.. Something "prompt" enough not to blow the whole roof off..
Some seem to look at it like a barn roof, blowing up, and laying back down.. Not.. The force to strip the concrete off those beams, quickly enough not to blow the whole beam and concrete into the pacific..
The north section of the roof, mostly intact, fell back down rather close to the building.. Watch the video.. the south section, above the pool, blew up in a cloud of pulverized concrete, with a huge yellow flash..
Sorry, but I agree with Arnie…
Report Comment
Check out Ian Goddards analysis concerning Reactor 3 and also check out his art work. Wow what a wonderful artist. He is truly talented. http://iangoddard.com/fukushima01.html
Report Comment
Thanks for the link. I haven't read it all, but I think he nailed it.
Report Comment
Odd all I get from that link is a blank page.
Report Comment
me too…
Report Comment
I copied this link once before to enenews.com for LetThemEatYellowCake weeks ago. I will try to find the link.
Report Comment
This whole article with links to the figures is found at:
http://enenews.com/japan-nuke-inspector-nuclear-explosion-fukushima-3-black-smoke-mushroom-cloud-hydrogen-explosion-produce-black-smoke
about 2/3rds down. I started with the conclusion, but ended up copying all the article with also the references.
Report Comment
I am talking about the article at:
http://iangoddard.com/fukushima01.html
I don't know why this article is invisible for some, but you can find it on enenews.com
Report Comment
Anne, here's a link that works on mobile phones: http://www.google.com/gwt/x?u=http%3A%2F%2Fiangoddard.com%2Ffukushima01.html
Not sure why it is redirects from Google though…? Strange.
Report Comment
Thanks too whataboutthekids – that link actually works on my computer! Strange indeed.
Report Comment
Your welcome!
Love your screenname, BTW. That about sums up some of the prevailing attitudes of those given license to expose our kids to radiation.
Report Comment
Thanks, What-About-The-Kids. I just try to keep track of the literature. I might have an opinion (I'm very far from being an expert), but in the end it's about the amount of radiation we are being exposed to, and it is coming from multiple sources with no end in sight.
May cooler and saner heads prevail. Looks like we will get our 1000 years of peace. There won't be enough people or resources left to have anything to fight over.
When I think that God gave us wind and solar for free, the hubris of so-called modern civilization, which gave us nuclear energy and nuclear weapons, seems very barbaric and backward.
Peace, faith, and love!
Report Comment
Peace, love and faith to you as well, Anne! I too can't understand the inanity and insanity of it all. I think Helen Caldicott's description of those with reptilian brains having too long been given free reign in the nuclear industry sure sounds about right to me.
Report Comment
Amen, Anne.
I hate the organized resistance to wind/solar.
Report Comment
moonshellblue, is it coming up blank for you right now? and if not, can you copy and paste what it says into the general or offtopic (if this one isn't appropriate) please?
Report Comment
Please see above, I already lost a day of work copying this article for you
http://enenews.com/japan-nuke-inspector-nuclear-explosion-fukushima-3-black-smoke-mushroom-cloud-hydrogen-explosion-produce-black-smoke
Report Comment
ohhh it's that one! Ok thanks. yeah weird, I have no idea why..can't access it through the phone either.
Report Comment
Only because of the Mox..
Uranium will not go "super critical" without pressure..
Plutonium can, especially 239, ie "weapons grade"..
(Which, BTW, there is evidence they may have been cooking just that in #4.)
Pu is a high Alpha emitter, and proximity can create criticality..
Melting can qualify as increasing proximity..
As metals melt, they separate by temp, layering..
Like a nuclear smelter..
A layer of Pu of any depth, WILL produce criticality…
It is just not that hard to see how it could do, well, exactly what it did..
Report Comment
I agree. The rpv and it's containment have a safety structure built in to prevent the core from melting and creating a CM. The water leaked out of the sfp, the rod assemblies overheated, the fuel fell down and evaporated the remainder of the coolant. The granola got extremely hot. Burned off the oxygen and separated into it's elements. The first small CM forms and you have an explosion that will vary in magnitude from one sfp to another. IMHO.
Report Comment
Fukushima Daiichi Intended To Increase MOX Use In Unit 3
September 6th, 2011
http://www.simplyinfo.org/?p=1734
Report Comment
For certain, what we can know, is if Tepco said, its probably "misinformation..
So who knows what is in the remaining fuel pools…
#2 has one, as does #4, and maybe #1..
So if we concede that Arnie`s Prompt Fuel Pool Criticality could ever occur at all, we have to ask.. What is REALLY in these SFP`s…
#4 has rods Ive never seen…
If they were cooking weapons grade pu239 in any, then the "Mixed Oxide" or Mox ratio of some of the rods could be 18% instead of 6%……
3 times the pu, the poison, the potential for explosion..
I guess Tepcos records of what they really had stored there may never surface, but time will tell…
Report Comment
People were told very early on that Arnie was being watched and possibly harassed but many,many people on this board here right now were, back last Summer, too concerned with proving each other wrong that they were too busy stabbing each other in the heart to truly listen.
Now Arnie has,mostly, been proven correct. He has a couple more cards to play with the government before this ends.
What is left to be shared about….Ibaraki. It will close this whole deal.
There are NO cures for what is coming.
Again, and I will say this for the last time:
Grow marijuana and consume it. Look to Chernobyl alternative therapy patients to help the Fukushima patients.
Most there will die but those that live will change the industry forever.
Many people here were purposely giving misinformation but many have bonded.
The best bet now is to keep track of the dead before they are erased. Their illnesses are now yours. Keep your checkups regular dears.
Mother nature is about to give you a show. Fukushima will not be able to be covered up.
Report Comment
Ibaraki?
What happened there?
Anne you were keeping track of the other plants.
Do you have any links about Ibaraki?
Report Comment
majia, I will look now, and will be posting here. I have something like coordinates for all nuclear power plants in Japan and will work from there.
Report Comment
Hi anne. I'm not sure which site you're using to find all the nuke plants, but here's one that might be useful if you don't already know it.
http://risksofnuclear.greenpeace.org/
If appropriate, would you post a link to yours for us?
Report Comment
Thanks, aigeezer. I mostly googled a lot and remember a lot from this site to help me google again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Japan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Japan_nuke_plant_map2
http://energybusinessdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Japan_nuclear_Reactor_Locations.jpg
http://energybusinessdaily.com/power/nuclear-power-2/japan-nuclear-power-plant-locations-and-details/
I am not so organized. I keep thinking I've covered a topic and then it comes up again. But there is always more information to be found depending on the words you put in the search.
Report Comment
Here are some incredible photos. #30, 33, 35, 36 refer to Ibaraki. I looked quickly, so could have missed some:
http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/03/earthquake-in-japan/100022/
Report Comment
I posted some information on J-PARC here:
http://enenews.com/us-commission-14-nuclear-reactors-at-4-sites-in-eastern-japan-were-affected-on-311-according-to-nisa-fukushima-daiichi-had-the-most-serious-damage-daini-onagawa-and-tokai-were-others#comments
There aren't many comments so it should be easy to find.
Report Comment
http://outreach.eri.u-tokyo.ac.jp/eqvolc/201103_tohoku/eng/#tsunami%20height
http://outreach.eri.u-tokyo.ac.jp/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/IbarakiChiba_ver2.jpg
Here is a lot of information from:
http://outreach.eri.u-tokyo.ac.jp/eqvolc/201103_tohoku/eng/
Report Comment
There are earthquakes quite close to Tokai Nuclear Power Plant, but we don't here what happens as a consequence.
Report Comment
There was a fire at one of the experimental reactors. It was posted on enenews.com. I will try to find it tomorrow.
Report Comment
Kyodo: Ceiling at Japan reactor catches fire — Burns 110 m² area in two hours — Just 100km from Fukushima
http://enenews.com/japan-times-reactor-ceiling-catches-fire-burns-110-m%C2%B2-area-in-two-hours
Report Comment
Thanks Anne
I'll try and examine these cites…
Report Comment
There is a reprocessing plant at Tokai-mura which had problems in the past (1999).
Tokaimura nuclear accident
“The Tokaimura nuclear accident (Japanese: Tōkai-mura JCO-rinkai-jiko) was the nuclear disaster which occurred on 30 September 1999,[1][2][3] resulted in two deaths.[4] It was the worst civilian nuclear radiation accident in pre-Fukushima Japan….’
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokaimura_nuclear_accident
Report Comment
Tōkai Nuclear Power Plant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C5%8Dkai_Nuclear_Power_Plant#Incidents
Report Comment
Two more videos and a photo array from:
http://yoshi-tex.com/Fuku1/Fuku1GE1.htm
[PattiB supplied this link. Here is the index of this very learned author: http://yoshi-tex.com/Fuku1/index.htm ]
http://blog-imgs-17.fc2.com/m/e/m/memoyann/Img_112581.jpg
映像付き解説１、 映像付き解説２、
映像付き解説３、 映像付き解説４、
links 3 and 4 are to:
Fukushima Explosion Measurements 福島第一
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3CJLNJpUVo&feature=related
福島第一 Fukushima Unit 3 Plume プルーム (HD)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGnKN7NzYik&feature=related
Report Comment
Anne…Thanks for all this good info and research!
Report Comment
Spring 2011 visit to Japan Atomic Energy Agency, Tokai Village, Ibaraki Prefecture
http://mikeblaber.org/ibaraki2011.htm
Report Comment
Coincidentally, Kyodo News reported on the 13th of March that a cooling system has broken at Tokai No. 2 Power Station in the Ibaraki Prefecture. At this point we do not know if the rising levels are directly connected but obviously it is a possibility and something to continue to follow.
http://republicbroadcasting.org/?p=14240
Report Comment
It's very rare I say anything. I've followed this site for a year and I've read a lot of the comments and I'd just like to say this…
I see what james2 is saying and I'll tell you why. You have all learned so much over the past year. I'm impressed with you all for the most part. You put so much of your time researching the subject and learning. I applaud you for that. But what I need to point out is, you can study and learn to your heart's content, but it takes a special person that thinks different than the general public to fully understand this subject. It's that person that you need to listen to. James2 sounds very off-the-wall, but I can tell you he is a very smart man that understands the situation. The few of us that truly understand, can listen to what Arnie has to say with great doubt. When someone truly understands this stuff and you hear an expert explaining something that you know deep down inside with no doubt makes no sense, it makes you question the motive.
Report Comment
Justme posted this a day ago (quoted in its entirey):
—-
"Justme
March 6, 2012 at 4:54 pm · Reply
These comments are troubling. It indicates to me that there are many people here on ENENews that still have no idea what is happening with the Fukushima crisis. The truth has been told, why is no one reading it? http://www.nrc.gov <—- it's all right here in black and white.
As for ENENews, it's a great site. Actually, I think it's the best site. It was my number one go to site and allowed me to spend most of my time learning nuclear science and nuclear engineering. It helped take the stress off of trying to find reliable information regarding the current events.
Thank You ENENews!"
—-
Make of it what you will.
Report Comment
I hope you have not taken these two posts as contradicting. If you have, then you need to re-read them and understand what I am saying. Had you not re-posted, this post may have been misconstrued by others that would have never brought it up. Thank you…aigeezer
Report Comment
Is that sarcasm? That you will find the truth at NRC? God I hope know one follows that advice.
Learning nuke science and nuke engineering from ENE? Well ENE got some good stuff, but I wouldn't exactly call it nuke science or nuke engineering.
I will let you know when I think the evil empire has "turned" Arnie, until then, Arnie is believed until proven wrong.
Report Comment
I could come to ENENews to get breaking news. ENENews was posting the stories that I was wasting so much time trying to find on my own. This, allowed me to use that time to research scientific data that has been collected over many years in regards to this topic. The replies to my March 7, 2012 at 10:36 pm post are perfect examples of why I've (for the most part) kept to myself for the past year.
Report Comment
go to the NRC for truth???!!??!?!??!?!!??
Please explain yourself on that one
Report Comment
this is valid and a place I once was stock.
However more recently I posted in detail some serious contradictions with what Arnie has stated.
One was with his last video presentation with respect to reactor one. I went into great detail about that issue.
And the final round for me was with the Japan Press Club. In that thread I went into great detail, so I am not going to repeat it all here again.
These were two incidents of many, including a letter I wrote him early on about the infamous reactor three seeking clarity on some of the information he provided for a piece I was writing. I received a legal form letter in response.
If you are interested, just look at the two threads here on ENENEWS. One on his last video and the other on the Japan Press Club conference. I break down serious concerns in both of those instances.
Report Comment
Not to be a little prissy, but is it possible to just provided a link to your comments…searching for stuff is very frustrating. I will be glad to read through.
I will say this though, I sent my uranium and plutonium density analysis based on RADNET data and he several times refused to review he says, based on being way too busy. I thought that was weird since the review would be like 20 minutes, AND my data is indeed the 80,000 lb uranium elephant in the air. You know what I speak of?
Report Comment
I can understand that is busy.
And at times I am sure its a valid excuse.
What you state is that the importance of your request could have led him to believe it was appropriate to make the time. That is a valid opinion.
I did not provide the links because I was not sure if you were interested.
I will search them out
Report Comment
Link to arnies Japanese press club performance
http://enenews.com/gundersen-in-japan-1000000-additional-cancers-from-fukushima-over-next-20-years-based-on-university-studies-after-three-mile-island-1-5-hour-video
Link to Arnies last video
http://enenews.com/fairewinds-nuclear-expert-believes-top-lifted-off-reactor-no-1-containment-before-explosion-video
Report Comment
To clarify…the subject matter was Arnie, and I said I sent my analysis and 'he several times refused to review' and of course I meant Arnie refused to review.
Maybe he is also scared of the Pu-elephant
Report Comment
There is no doubt gag orders are out about discussing the more dangerous elements with half lifes of forever.
When you listen to the bulk of the mainline reporting you would think that iodine was the only concern.
Plutonium is never mentioned at all. Only in obscure scientific studies and what not, never in the mainstream.
Report Comment
I did long reply below….no offense intended so don't get all huffy like Justme
Report Comment
Yeah geezer I have to admit this whole justme thing is abit bizarre…… thanks for posting that. I think….
lol
What a twisted tangled web eh?
Report Comment
I was wondering if people would remember the bizarre thread from March 3 in which a previously unknown visitor "C.E. L.70501" created a huge diversion. Admin eventually closed the thread and removed the weirder bits from the archives.
For whatever reason, "Justme" kept the exchange going.
Here is how it started:
http://enenews.com/yomiuri-radiation-fears-serious-expected-hosono-meeting-almost-every-day-advertising-agencies-discuss-strategy-appealing-public/comment-page-1#comment-214560
The lesson might be "don't engage"… or not.
Report Comment
i hadn't seen any of Justme's posts until this thread.
Certainly his/her compliments to me are noted and appreciated if genuine, but I'm not really in it for the ego, plus there have been plenty of folks here trying to be nice in order to get me to do or reveal something for them, so I always keep an eye on those things.
Justme has given a pretty good indication of what kind of expert he/she is, and if my speculation is correct, I think it's a member that would be valuable to have.
Report Comment
Justme,
James2 and Heart of the Rose made it clear to me, too.
If you are going to excuse Gundersen for saying its "cold pancakes" at Fukushima then you're going to have to excuse Tepco for saying it is "cold shutdown."
If Nelson Mandela also starts talking about Fukushima in the past tense, then he is helping to injure the plankton, seals, grasshoppers, snowflakes, children, and everyone/everything else, no matter what suffering he endured in the past.
Report Comment
I have not the time to study Fukushima as much as some people. Whether or not the explosion was from the core or spent fuel pool I can not say and I must sit on the fence. But whatever happened wasn't good and whatever is ongoing is still not good and the masses are left to fend for themselves with very little reliable information.
One thing that remains clear, we have been lied to and the nuclear industry is as corrupt powerful and deadly as anyone can imagine.
If someone like Mr Gunderson is not as outspoken as some would like or even is spreading dis-information as some accuse, perhaps rightfully, it probably has something to do with him wanting to enjoy the last bit of his life and to ensure no harm comes to his grand-kids. Respectfully he looks too old to lose his house again. Given what he has gone through is there any among us who has sacrificed so much? And given what we have seen in mainstream media, the shear power of the lie, is it unreasonable to conclude that Arnie has been muzzled?
Report Comment
Nelson Mandela has gone through a lot more, and he's not lying to the children of Fukushima.
If he doesn't want to take the bullet, fine, but he is going out of his way to imply that it is NOT happening. It is criminal to lie about genocide, no matter what you have done in the past.
Report Comment
Yes, that is unreasonable. Muzzled is to be shut up completely, and I doubt that at any price he would speak to deceive to promote nuke.
Report Comment
Maybe not muzzled but certainly careful about what he says. I wouldn't fault him for that.
Report Comment
He is a far more important target than you or I. In theory, he could move tens of millions to act. The tipping point.
Report Comment
Precisely.
Arnie, is positioned unlike anyone else at this point in time.
He could be a critical lynch pin.
And this is where the rubber hits the road, and what truly matters no matter what your opinion of him and his work.
What matters now is what he does with it.
Which is another reason I was very much let down with the Japanese press club performance.
Report Comment
The battle may take years or even a decade…who is to say the perfect strategy. got link to your prior comments?
Report Comment
Yes I posted the links for you.
here they are again.
Link to arnies Japanese press club performance
http://enenews.com/gundersen-in-japan-1000000-additional-cancers-from-fukushima-over-next-20-years-based-on-university-studies-after-three-mile-island-1-5-hour-video
Link to Arnies last video
http://enenews.com/fairewinds-nuclear-expert-believes-top-lifted-off-reactor-no-1-containment-before-explosion-video
Report Comment
A few ideas
Dai means "number"
Ni Means Two
Ichi Means One
The Japanese beat around the bush, alot. If you come off too direct too strong too attacking, they will shun you, regardless of the accuracy of your position. I speak a little Japanese and have traveled the country and married a Japanese woman.
I don't think that the issue of whether the EQ or the tsunami caused the radiation leak is a make or break issue. Nuke can be sentenced to death without that, that is a battle that I don't think even needs to be fought, in fact an energy wasting argument.
I don't know all the facts and I don't need to, my opinion is adequately backed up, and my ability to sway others is adequately armed.
Another point. Arnie is old, and getting older by the month, this is wearing on him. Unless he is an idiot financially, he should have $5M to $15M saved up. He is not doing any of this for money, unless I am wrong. His neighbors like him. Just saying that any implication that he is hitching his organization to nuke just makes no sense to me based on why? To go against everything you have worked for, when you don't need money anymore–than what he has, well that makes no sense. He lives for the love of his wife, and his wife adores him to beating up on the nukers.
My analysis.
Report Comment
Good points.
However on the EQ.
your opinion is a good one, however, the facts ar the facts and the industry has bent over backwards to avoid admitting that the EQ did damage. This is a fact. Arnies work substantiates that in that video. I found it glaring. Secondly why even do the video? It was the sole point of the video and he absolutely admits the well known data (right up to the NRC chair in real time) that the eq did the original damage that led to a detection of radiation before the tsunami. So why would one then make a video, with that info already disclosed, and start the analysis at a point past the initial damage which led to radiation being released, and present an entirely different course of events that led to the explosion. One which has no supporting evidence aside from a forty year old study? So while you may be correct that we can sink nuclear power without the eq damage factor, the fact is they are hyper senstive about this issue because it can sink them, the data was there that it happened and the video he presented avoided all of the known facts and presented a hypothesis supported by no known facts.
With respect to your point about Arnie doing it for the money. I am not sure why you would bring that up in response to the many issues I presented, because I never claimed he was doing ir for the money.
Report Comment
whoops I said above
It was the sole point of the video and he absolutely admits the well known data
I meant to say "and he absolutely omits the well known data"
The sentence does not makes sense with the word admits when I met omits.
Report Comment
I disagree about the timing with respect to strategy. Arnies time is now, or soon at best.
Fukushima launched him into a new arena.
That will fade with time.
Look it now, already just a year after and still in a fragile/crisis condition and the media is largely ignoring it as it fades into the background.
you strike when the iron is hot.
That said, Arnie is far more intimate with the details and has his own agenda that he will pursue.
The observation I am making is that through all this Arnie has surfaced as the best positioned to really strike a body blow to the industry, that capacity will fade with time.
Report Comment
I do agree, if the nukers get a strong toe in, the future is dim, but the battle may be long,
I think we need to bribe the nukers….cash for clunker plants and some type of gov guarantee on pensions…as long as they learn solar and teach it…no free rides, cells, cartels, or hell, no one rides for free (PV, Oil cartels, or nuke)—ruh roh got to be careful about trying to be funny round here
Report Comment
Bucks for Becquerels!
Report Comment
How do you know whether he has or hasn't appealed directly already with the appropriate parties?
Maybe he has tried that already and was sent packing?
It seems to me that Japan has made it perfectly clear they are not seeking outside assistance. In a year's time, they have seemed to stick with that early decision with few exceptions. Maybe TEPCO has threatened Arnie with legal action for announcing *their business* before they do?
Maybe it is as simple as that.
Personally, I am not participating in these energy draining character bashing with you guys. As a newer * Anti-nuke* it seems obvious to me why the Pro-nukes have been able to remain in control. We could never accomplish anything significant together without teamwork in this community.
The concept of attacking repeatedly Arnie is beyond counterproductive.
Report Comment
Mark, Arnie has paid his dues, hasn't he? People in Tokyo who publish radiation measurements and those who speak out are publically against the nuke liers tend to end up DEAD. Is it any wonder that Arnie, having been ruined once by the nuke industry, is a bit gunshy? Having said that, my girlfriend is always asking me: "What are the credentials of the people speaking out against atomic power?" Arnie has been saying that Fuku has f###ed us all (my words, not his) since about 311. Arnie is one nuclear industry insider speaking out about the horrendous affects these levels of radiation are having on girls and children. To this I say many thanks, Arnie, for doing good. Keep it up!
Report Comment
Mark wrote:
"If someone like Mr Gunderson is not as outspoken as some would like or even is spreading disinformation as some accuse, perhaps rightfully, it probably has something to do with him wanting to enjoy the last bit of his life and to ensure no harm comes to his grand-kids. Respectfully he looks too old to lose his house again. Given what he has gone through is there any among us who has sacrificed so much? And given what we have seen in mainstream media, the shear power of the lie, is it unreasonable to conclude that Arnie has been muzzled?"
1. The whole "cold pancakes" thing is as much a disinformation tidbit as "cold shutdown," for sure. But I'm sure Arnie knows that the relatively few paying close attention would see it for what it is without any help. There comes a time to "pass the torch," and he may have reached his.
2. I doubt Arnie's grandkids are in greater danger from nukes than anyone else's.
3. Anybody can lose their house in this economy. Millions every month, for years now, no relief in sight. Age has nothing to do with it.
4. Yes, I do know of people who have lost much more than Arnie for their attempts to tell unpopular truths about nukes. Right here at enenews, and not here at enenews because they died a decade BEFORE Arnold Gundersen figured out that nukes weren't such a great thing…
Report Comment
…5. It's less the industry than the press itself that "muzzles" nuclear dissent from knowledgeable people. You can rant all you like so long as you don't know much about what you're ranting against. If you do know whereof you speak the press imposes strict limits on what can be said based on maintaining their own blissful ignorance of pesky technicalities. Part and parcel of preserving their bogus claims to "impartiality."
IOW, the nukes don't have to police dissent from the ranks. The press does it for them.
After negotiating that sort of gauntlet for awhile, it is recognized to be a fool's errand. Simply not worth the bother anymore. Being "sick and tired" is a good enough reason to take a deep breath and go on with your life. I mean, it's not like Arnie hasn't been trying, for a long time, to alleviate general ignorance. And been called every name in the book by both bad guys and good for his efforts.
When you've pretty much done all you can do there's no good reason to keep going down a dead-end path. He doesn't owe anybody here anything.
Report Comment
Arnie is representing a lot of anti-nuclear groups. I am profoundly grateful for everything he does. He has proven himself with real sacrifices as no one else has on this site. He is interviewed by the media as a trusted source and is a very able spokesman for the anti-nuclear groups.
He is spoken of favorably and his videos linked by this Japanese expert who has many insights as to the cover up:
http://yoshi-tex.com/Fuku1/index.htm
When I wrote my dissertation, my adviser kept telling me that it is not enough to be against something. You must also be for something.
I find some of the greatest criticism for Arnie from bloggers who are not against Terrapower. I find that the nuclear industry would like dearly to discredit Arnie. \
I am totally against all nuclear energy and think that all power plants should be decommissioned immediately and no construction continued or started.
I save my criticism for those who are for a future of the nuclear industry which can never be safe or economical.
NO RADIATION IS SAFE!
NO NUKES, NO WAY, NOT EVER!
Report Comment
Arnie just risked his life going to Japan to help the people there with his expertise in decontamination. That makes him a hero in my sight.
Report Comment
Indeed, as much as I love that country I have the chance to go next month, and at this point I am passing. But really the dose might be 5 mSv or something relatively benign, but it is impossible to assess.
Report Comment
Anne, being for nuclear is like being for lead in paint, except unlike lead in paint it can destroy all life on earth. Nuclear is a complete fraud.
Not only does nuclear destroy even the snowflakes, but it consumes more energy than it produces.
Not to mention the waste that will continue to destroy for millions of years.
Nuclear plants make money for the owners, while destroying life more effectively than drones and bombs.
Anne, do you believe that the fuel at Fukushima is like a cold pancake?
Do you think that Fukushima is in the past tense? With all of the Iodine, etc. detected? Why do you think Gundersen went to Japan and talked about Fukushima in the past tense?
Report Comment
Arnie never said that the corium is contained. He just said that it was travelling out the side instead of the bottom, and that it was unlikely to explode. He has also said that there is on-going recriticalities.
He never said that Fukushima is over. On the contrary, he has warned of the ongoing problems and has criticized the statements that there is a cold shutdown. He has definitely said that there is no cold shutdown.
I have said many times that radiation contamination cannnot be disposed of in any way. The contamination of some nuclides will continue for over a million years. Fukushima is uninhabitable for over a million years. There are many other places in the world that are uninhabitable for over a million years, including in the US.
THE EXPOSED: POISONED BY NUCLEAR MUNITIONS & PLANTS
http://contaminationblog.wildclearing.com/
Let us join with all anti-nuclear individuals to decommission all nuclear power plants, nuclear munitions factories and arsenals. Let us stop all uranium mining NOW. Let us stop all nuclear experimentation. Not one death is acceptable. NO NUCLEAR ENERGY IS EVER POSSIBLE NOW OR IN THE FUTURE. Please join to stop the killing of my children and all the children of the world. Please let us leave our children with a nuclear free legacy. Please free our children of the staggering debt caused by subsidies and utilities charges incurred by nuclear energy. Help us to just use wind or solar or geothermal, free gifts from God.
NO RADIATION IS SAFE!
NO NUKES, NO WAY, NOT EVER!
Report Comment
Let us save attacks for the nuclear industry and their proponents, not the people who are helping us to shut down the aging nuclear infrastructure and those who are exposing licensing shortcomings and deception.
Report Comment
Anne,
Gundersen is a nuclear proponent! Just as his recent visit to Japan included a critique of one plant design, implying approval for other designs. He has traveled elsewhere in the world, not arguing AGAINST nuclear power, but FOR a different nuclear plant design.
In his own words, describing his trip to the Czech Republic:
"We proved to them that would be cheaper to stop construction now and then build smaller plants as the need developed, but they are stuck in a mindset. Because they have spent so much money on it, there is a feeling that they have to go forward.
http://www.state.nv.us/nucwaste/news2000/nn10410.htm
He is a nuclear proponent, just a critic of particular plants.
Report Comment
If you question what is happening, come on over here to Southern California. We have plenty to share. If you have a Quartz fiber dosimeter or a Film badge dosimeter they're useless. If you can't detect Alpha, you're missing more than you could ever imagine (at least in my neck of the woods).
Report Comment
He's saying the fuel is cold when it is HOT, that Fukushima is in the past when it is NOT.
It is bad when Tepco denies reality, but not when Gundersen denies reality?
I have been taken by his charms as anyone, but I feel like in December, we suddenly found out that Santa Claus is a V.P. at Goldman Sachs.
Report Comment
re Admin's comment 'this is not a funny matter…'
I have had the same thoughts myself. Joking and wise-cracking about it seems inappropriate, in view of the deaths that have already occurred and those to come, and the suffering, the homelessness, the children at risk, the illnesses both present and to come, the birth defects, the criminality and ruthlessness of the governments and the nuclear industry – the poisoning of the biosphere.
It's a great website, unique, there is nothing else like it, and a lot of smart people contribute – I just think humor,joking about it, is disrespectful to those who have died, are suffering, have lost all.
Report Comment
no one is being disrespectful about the dead and dying. it is called gallows humour, a safety valve if you will for situations that are too dire to comprehend… i am guilty of using this humour myself, it is because i am shit scared, so i cry AND laugh at the same time
Report Comment
Re: the pancake reference Arnie first made back on August 4, 2011:
"And second, when they get into these buildings to actually try to dismantle the plant, they are going to find even higher radiation levels than this one. Remember, at the bottom of the nuclear reactor, the nuclear core has leaked out and is now lying like a pancake on the concrete floor, working it's way down, but probably not through the concrete. That is even much more radioactive than this.
That is why it is going to take Tokyo Electric 10 or 20 years to clean up. This is not something you send somebody in with shovels to shovel the floor. This is going to have to be done robotically and it is going to take a long, long time."
http://fairewinds.com/content/lethal-levels-radiation-fukushima-what-are-implications
SP: OK…He had an opinion on what was happening with the corium and I respectfully agree to disagree (which I will explain below).
Then Arnie on December 14 gave another talk:
Fukushima – Could it Have a China Syndrome?
http://vimeo.com/33561652
SP: In this video he argues against a China Syndrome and says the fuel has gone ex-vessel and is probably flat on the concrete floor, but has not left the building (a new term…let us call it ex-building). He says the biggest danger instead of explosions or steam releases is the water contamination flowing to the sea.
I disagreed with Arnie long ago on this issue and stated that here on Enenews back in August.
However, I am guessing just as he is on where the fissile fuel has gone in Reactors 1, 2,and 3. The complexity of the situation is that Unit 4 could have had a massive meltdown of the SFP assemblies and thus possibly another huge corium. It's not ex-vessel because they say the Unit 4 vessel was not loaded.
My argument for ex-building corium flow is simple…
Hypothesis 1: the earthquake ruptured the building foundations and there is a seam for the coriums to burn down and out.
Part 1
Report Comment
Part 2
Hypothesis 2: The corium did not find a seam in every building, but burned down the building flooring faster than Arnie and Tepco expected.
My theory is addressed on page 26 of the 1995 NRC document Accident Source Terms for Light-Water Nuclear Power Plants. Don't be put off by the title…on page 10 it tells us this report is also applicable to GE's Boiling Water Reactor.
On page 26 the report states in section 5.4 Water Overlying Core Debris: "The question of coolability of the molten debris as a result of water overlying it is still under investigation. A major factor that may affect the degree of scrubbing is whether the water layer in contact with the molten debris is boiling or not."
Also a very fascinating section on re-evolution of iodine in accident sequences on page 25. They mention borate as a moderator and the question at Japan have they been successful with their boron injections. Apparently not 100% as we have seen iodine measured in recent days.
http://www.nucleartourist.com/events/NUREG-1465.pdf
SP: So we see that there is no consensus on the cooling capacity of feed water poured from above in regards to a hot corium…even one 12 months old is very hot. It may be having little effect on the downward ground penetration burn rate. I feel at least one has breached the concrete and steel shield, possibly all three. Tepco may know from their instruments…Arnie and I don't…we guess.
Obviously something is still churning at Fukushima because the smoke emissions and the disappearing buildings last week indicate a major heat issue in the building areas. Now it could be be something other than corium releases…could be the debris that exploded out of 2 and 3 and 4 and was subsequently bulldozed over and steel plates placed on top (like that is really going to stop plant emissions…it was done strictly as a shield for workers and not the poor folks downwind of the constant emissions. But it is probably the coriums melting.
Report Comment
I think that I even remember your helpful discussion of that from August, Sickputer. I guess in December, his presentation that the fuel was like a "cold pancake" came so close to Tepco's "cold shutdown" of the same time, and then he hasn't spoken of Fukushima in the present tense since December, that I have heard.
Why do you think that he started using the past tense in December, Sickputer?
Report Comment
I was working 100 hour weeks in December and January so I missed some of the nuances. Haven't sat through the 1 plus hour Press Club video either (A transcript anywhere?)
Report Comment
I don't seek medical advice from Mr. Gundersen. I listen to Dr. Cousens, M.D. about radioactive contamination in milk PRE-Fukushima from US atom bomb testing and production of nuclear weapons and from US nuclear power plants. And I listen to Dr. Helen Caldecott. And I followed Dr. Agatha and Calvin Thrasher about eating vegan 21 years before Fukushima.
Please don't blame the radiation in the US on Arnie Gundersen. Radiation comes from the nuclear industry. They alone are to blame.
Report Comment
NO RADIATION IS SAFE!
NO NUKES, NO WAY, NOT EVER!
Report Comment
4 questions – they're simple
1) At what temperature does steel melt?
2) At what temperature does concrete decompose?
3) How quickly does a reactor reach these temperatures once cooling is lost?
4) How long were the Fukushima Daiichi reactors without cooling?
stock@hawaii.rr.com, feel free to keep any comments to yourself
Report Comment
Look these up and you will see for yourself
Report Comment
Wow–I am actually laughing. You don't even want any answer to technical questions….much less my opinion on your opinion or perhaps your motivations.
Report Comment
stock@hawaii.rr.com For one, I have put a great deal of my time and energy into studying this topic and chose reliable sources and reliable information which had been published prior to March 2011. I have many detectors and can detect Alpha, Beta and Gamma using an assortment of Geiger–Müller tubes or through Scintillation via a PMT. I am very knowledgeable on this subject. Stock, I have the answers to my questions and I don't need your opinions. Maybe if you would back off and give people a break, they could teach you something. Good luck with your research….I'm out of here
Report Comment
I asked you to justify your comment of go to the NRC for truth…
The NRC is a nuke promoter, yet another captured regulator, a pimps pimp in the whorehouse of nuke.
Report Comment
Stock,
I love your "a pimps pimp in a whorehouse of nuke," even if it is a little unfair to pimps.
Report Comment
yeah, sorry to insult pimps….LOL
Report Comment
The NRC – They have lied and deceived the world. I hope it is dealt with swiftly.
Report Comment
"Justme
March 6, 2012 at 4:54 pm
The truth has been told, why is no one reading it? http://www.nrc.gov <—- it's all right here in black and white."
Troll?… Outpatient?… Whatever?… Don't engage, folks.
Report Comment
OOPS forgot to specify "BWR" on question 3
Report Comment
And people wonder why Arnie doesn't answer all the emails he gets at Fairewinds.
@Justme: Your questions at 1:47 AM are IMHO: offtopic, condescending, and rude to a fellow poster who has been a big asset to this forum.
The answers to your "questions" have been addressed several times, mainly back in the first two months of this forum.
Since you have so many detection devices and have lurked so long according to your first post in this thread…. please feel free to share your detection results in the appropriate thread: Post Your Radiation Monitoring Data. Lay off the personal vendettas.
Your dislike of Arnie and admiration for James is duly noted…you have made it perfectly clear. I doubt either is moved to tears.
It is not my forum duty to reprove novice posters or inveterate oldtimers who flame…but…it has been one of my personal Internet goals to help bring equilibium and fair play to the written words in a discussion group.
I have probably been on the Internet since before you were born. That does not make me always right, but in this instance it is pretty clear to all who erred in posting. You called out a member and told him to not reply to your post and belittled him. Stock is owed an apology if you are a naked ape clothed enough to admit you fired off an ill-advised post.
Arnie may not have the Internet experience to put up with flamers and so he does not post here. Maybe he does under an alias. If so he is welcome. He says he reads this forum and that is great.
Despite most of us not being hard scientists we bring a great deal of expertise in various fields and data collection/interpretation.
You can also offer your expertise and opinions in a positive way. The Internet is what you make of it.
SP
Report Comment
the only thing that moves me to tears is to thing about the children this disaster has affected.
Just to clarify. I think Arnie could be a great spokesman – actually he is.
However it's a well known guerilla PR tactic to "buy up" all the public influencers and suppress opposing scientific viewpoints. It's logical to think that Arnie would be a prime target for that type of operation.
I was on the lookout for that happening with him and Busby and Greenpeace, etc. When I first saw it, I was careful to point them out politely – at least for me.
But over time it's become obvious.
I've also noticed that Busby has been pretty quiet lately. Maybe I just haven't paid attention or maybe there's something to it – however "keeping quiet" would be preferable to spreading misinformation.
Report Comment
C.Busby “Govs learnt and JP gov became worse than Soviet”
February 22nd, 2012
C.Busby talked on The Alex Jones Channel
http://fukushima-diary.com/2012/02/c-busby-govs-learnt-and-jp-gov-became-worse-than-soviet/
Report Comment
Interview With Prof. Dr. Busby And Leuren Moret – Fallujah, Fukushima And The Global Radiation Catastrophe … Exposing Worldwide Depopulation And Genocide
February 2012 interview
http://www.infiniteunknown.net/2012/02/24/interview-with-prof-dr-busby-and-leuren-moret-%E2%80%93-fallujah-fukushima-and-the-global-radiation-catastrophe-%E2%80%A6-exposing-worldwide-depopulation-and-genocide/
Report Comment
Now that we know that Arnie is under duress, we have an explanation why he was backing Tepco and their "cold shutdown" nonsense.
He has said many things that have helped us to understand the situation, and he has said other things that have hindered this. Some people think he's a "good guy" based on the first, and other people think he's a "bad guy" based on the second.
This is irrelevant. Look at what he is saying, and not saying, and figure out for yourself how far he is allowed to go, find out what things he cannot talk about. These are the things that the nuclear mafia can never allow to be exposed.
Report Comment
I think it makes makes perfect sense Bobby1. In retrospect, it makes more sense to leave some questions for serious students.
I would add that not even the "nuclear mafia" (More powerfully constipated than the banking cartel.) can remain constipated for so long. Fukushima was like a strong laxative.
The limit of satiety is bursting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPkOv0-u6A0
Report Comment
Gundersen has said a lot of good informative things:
1. He has talked about radionuclides detected in the US
2. He said the #3 explosion was nuclear
3. Talked a lot about burning radioactive debris
4. Good explanations about faults in construction of Fuku and other NPP's
What he won't talk about:
1. Re-criticalities
2. Fuel penetrating bottom of drywell and entering into soil.
Re-criticalities (#1) imply heating of the corium, which causes (#2) the fuel to leave the building entirely.
In other words, Arnie can't talk about the China syndrome. This is what the nuclear mafia cannot accept to be publicized.
Report Comment
Well said,
Report Comment
I'll never figure this out. Anything I post (since day one), on any site, is met with replies like this. I try to avoid confrontation, but for some reason it always happens. This is what has kept me from posting my data. During the first months of the accident, in attempts to help, I posted some videos. All the feedback was negative, and I was questioned if the video was fake. Everyone was skeptical, which is good, but they were treating me as a bad guy. I was trying to show everyone how bad the situations was. This is hard to take, and it affects me. I see so much misinformation online that it would be almost impossible for someone just starting to learn of the situation, to weed out the bad and incorrect information. This subject is very complex, very hard to understand and you either get it, or you don't, but by all means, don't stop searching for answers. A forum is a great place to share and discuss information, but if you have not researched and learned on your own, how are you supposed to weed out the bad information? We are all in this boat together, and the end result will be the same, so please try and give the people who you don't think are part of your "clique" a little break. There are many lurkers out here, and just because you never here from them, doesn't mean they don't feel a strong connection to this group. As for me, I'm one of the people who "get's it". I understand this stuff, and for some reason, I guess it doesn't appear that way. If you truly seek the truth, hit the books and study everything you can. Make sure you only read publications prior to March 2011. Research past nuclear accidents (including civilian accidents). Find research data regarding nuclear fuel. It will have to become your life, but if it's answers you seek, you will get them, and you better be ready. I will write this off as an attack by the Japanese government trying to suppress information. Great Job. It's Working……
Report Comment
Justme,
I have noticed the in-group 'cliques' also, regularly lavishing strokes and avowals of affection upon one another. To some extent, they tend to 'rule,' or dominate. Reminds me of high school. I too have felt that I have met with undue negativity. So mostly I just read, but by and large no longer try to post or comment. (I do appreciate the research, erudition and intelligence of several regular posters here, and have learned a lot from them, as well, of course, as from articles posted by admin. and links posted by others.)
The suggestion that HAARP might have been used to trigger the quake has been met with consistent, conspicuous hostility, ridicule, etc. to the extent that 'it leadeth one to wonder.' I get the impression that none of these anti-HAARP-harpers has actually done much research into the subject or accessed the videos of Leuren Moret, chief exponent of this theory and a researcher for whom I have great admiration.
Report Comment
The In-group that lavishes praise back and forth is mostly the shills.
Report Comment
Dont take anything you get from anybody here – even me- personally.
Unless you are a nuclear industry shill, and I promise to grind on you unmercifully you murdering bastard.
The entire purpose of that misinformation – indeed the entire purpose of all information about nuclear power plants is presented in such a way as for it to be confusing, technical and generally unquestionable.
However this site reveals that it's not so complex that normal people can't understand – and when they do, they will find how sloppily these NPP's are run.
I can tell from just a couple posts Justme that you have knowledge of this stuff – I suspect I know where you come from – regardless, the shills don't want people smarter than they are here so they blast you from the start.
Good Luck
Report Comment