Gundersen: They’ve admitted that all the boron has disintegrated in between spent fuel at Fukushima — It can cause a nuclear chain reaction if rods get too close together in pool (AUDIO)

Published: September 17th, 2013 at 10:06 am ET
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Title: Fukushima with Arnie Gundersen
Source: KZYX’s Renewable Energy Hour
Hosts: Doug Livingston and Jeff Oldham
Date: Sept. 9, 2013

At 23:15 in

Arnie Gundersen, Chief Engineer at Fairewinds Energy Education:

Tokyo Electric has admitted that the boron between these fuel cells — there’s a boron wafer in between the fuel to prevent something called an inadvertent criticality, you can have a nuclear chain reaction in the fuel pool, and that’s not a good thing — but they’ve admitted that all the boron has disintegrated.

So the only thing preventing a chain reaction from occurring […] in the fuel racks themselves, is the fact they put all sorts of boron in the water.

But if the rods get too close to each other, they can still fire up again and create a chain reaction in the nuclear fuel pool.

Full broadcast here

Published: September 17th, 2013 at 10:06 am ET
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42 comments

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  2. Gundersen: 200 brand new fuel bundles in Fukushima Unit 4 pool are most at risk to start nuclear chain reaction — If too close together during removal, there will be a criticality — “They have to be very, very cautious” (AUDIO) September 27, 2013
  3. Gundersen: Unit 4 pool can turn into a nuclear reactor as they pull rods up — Bloomberg: Like a “self-sustained chain reaction similar to meltdowns” — NHK: Fuel is 1% plutonium (VIDEO) November 19, 2013
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42 comments to Gundersen: They’ve admitted that all the boron has disintegrated in between spent fuel at Fukushima — It can cause a nuclear chain reaction if rods get too close together in pool (AUDIO)

  • MichaelV MichaelV

    This obsession with nukes…

    What they've assembled at fuku is a doomsday machine capable of spreading a cloud of radioactive materials over the entire world.

    A strange love indeed.

    Wasn't the fictional Russian device built to the north of Japan in remote Irkutsk or Kamchatka?

    Hands off my rarified elements…!


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  • markww markww

    audio does not play for some reason Markww


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  • SteveMT

    How to secretly kill all life on this planet in the cruelest most grotesque way possible By TEPCO
    This is a new book that no one wants to publish just yet because it's still a secret. (satire)


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  • nedlifromvermont

    This is no fictional device. Mr. Gunderson was/is the self-acknowledged expert in fuel(fool) pool racking and re-reacking;

    The fact that Mr. Gunderson is now openly speaking to the danger/fallibility of his life's previous work is worth noting;

    These boron-wafer dependent monstrosities are what all our lives now hang on.

    The GAG about safe nuclear power is revealed … in a business model climate where you have to build Cheap! Cheap! reactors … to compete with Cheap Coal …

    In a market where you need to build the reactors really, really big, to achieve economies of scale in order to amortize relatively large labor and security expenses …

    In an environment where government has absolved you, the industry, from any meaningful liability for accidents, by virtue of Cold War era Price-Anderson legislation …

    And in an environment where your "cheap, cheap" design, which basically takes the navy's first submarine style boiling water reactor and stores any spent fuel or core off-load in a handy close by spent fuel pool (because it's in a sub, dude, you can't take it across the street) and simply up-scales this existing set of blue-prints for use in a big boxy building, set next to America's biggest cities, and a compliant Regulator doesn't even make you take the old shit out of the fool pool, long past the time it could come out, but you don't want/need to take it out because it might cost you MONEY …

    How is this not a Death Wish?

    peace …


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    • Cisco Cisco

      NFV…exactly!

      You missed, "run 'em to the wheels fall off". CEO's of these NPP's are motivated to cut costs and suspend for improvements because their golden parachute depends on a higher stock price when they exit.

      Higher profits resulting from cost cutting and freezing spending nearly always translates into stock appreciation. It doesn't matter what shape the company's in after they are gone, nor what impact the company and its processes have on humanity. What matters is the stock and their strike price.

      What's a psychopath to do?


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      • Cisco Cisco

        NFV…exactly!

        You missed, "run 'em to the wheels fall off". CEO's of these NPP's are motivated to cut costs and suspend spending for improvements because their golden parachute depends on a higher stock price when they exit.

        Higher profits resulting from cost cutting and freezing spending nearly always translates into stock appreciation. It doesn't matter what shape the company's in after they are gone, nor what impact the company and its processes have on humanity. What matters is the stock and their strike price.

        What's a psychopath to do?


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  • markww markww

    I JUST WROTE FAIREWINDS and left a message to Arnie Gundersen. Sorry that I have not posted in awhile I was working on a new theory to make the fuel pool stable from going critical. Here is my theory to Arnie

    Dear Arnie I have written before as to firefighting a fuel pool fire, I think I have a theory as to solve the fuel pool in reactor number 4 at Fukushima. I hope you can fill in any blanks but here is what I think can be done NOW and solve the whole problem.

    First get with a couple engineers and see if this could work on a small scale rod bundle . Build a Hypodermic injector fill with

    Powered glass,sand carbon sterile powder, boron,powered shuttle tile mixture same as the carbon, graphite,lead powder and mix then inject into the bottom of a fuel rod rack starting at the bottom and fill to the top and let set. This would ebcase the rod bundle as to the heat the mixture would go solid and protect all the bundles even if warped and fill and encase the bundle cavity. I think this would stabilize the cavity and seal so the rod bundles could be pulled and set into encasement's.

    After the Russian disaster England did this to some radioactive pellets and it made a glass ball on the outside and the heat never got anywhere as to fusion. It was shown on a broadcast some years ago, where the glass pellets were all put in a large glass jar and did not even need water to cool the material cause it was each encased and unable to produce the heat.

    I hope you can look…


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    • DisasterInterpretationDissorder DisasterInterpretationDissorder

      Thanks Markww , i hope they listen and act before it evolves/sinks/radiates out of their reach !


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    • markww markww

      also added to the message to Arnie to mix concrete mixture to the elements and inject into the fuel rod bundle packs.


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    • We Not They Finally

      Two (I'm sure uneducated, just simple) questions: How do they get CLOSE ENOUGH to do something like that, especially for a REMOTE operation; and could the injection pressure itself topple melded twisted imbalanced rods in precarious conditions.


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      • markww markww

        the rods might be warped but when you do this

        the structures in videos previous year show rod bundles in racks racked together something like a large square and in the square are square bundle racks each with its own encasement, you remote fill each one cause they have had cameras down there so you put like a huge HYPO NEEDLE into each cavity to the bottom of each bundle pack and fill and do each one till full then pull out after hardening, and put into vertilee containers and seal withe the same mixture. The weight is not going to hurt even if the bundles are warped they fill and seal like filling a tooth.Even if warped you can fill the cavities where the rods are located. That is why I sent the material to Arnie and Hopefully Chris Busby so they can get a couple engineers and work out the finer details.

        Markww

        Markww

        Markww


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    • Anthony Anthony

      I wish somebody in the know and in the circle woudl fly you to Japan, let you totally (and safely!) review the situation and let your brain cells analyse a potential course of action.

      Why not?

      I would. I get the feeling you could figure this out.


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    • Anthony Anthony

      I wish somebody in the know and in the circle would fly you to Japan, let you totally (and safely!) review the situation in person and let your brain cells analyse a potential course of action.

      Why not?

      I would. I get the feeling you could figure this out.


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    • Mark, I am always blown away by your creative, logical solutions to these problems. We are so close to an ELE and your solution is the only thing that sounds plausible and possible. It has to happen now before the facility becomes too hot for robots.

      Thank you for your passion and dedication. You give me hope for the future of the planet.


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    • Nigwil

      Good effort Markw. This will work OK with the spent fuel rods deep under water will it? Its not quite clear how the heat to 'set' your dry powder mix will be generated underwater, while obviously its not a good plan to drain the pool to allow the rods to generate the heat to fuse your mix. Chicken and egg – either way the goose is cooked, I fear?


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      • markww markww

        What you do is MIX the Dry agents with a concrete slurry, You go down to each fuel bundle and INJECT the material Filling each small square fuel bundle which contains so many rods. When it is full and sets The mixture seals in the radiation and can't produce the heat like they do now. Once you pull the rod bundle container you put it in a encasement and seal and bury.

        Markww


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    • wa6smn wa6smn

      As I read through your proposed approach I was reminded of the
      "Cash for Clunkers" approach to seize an engine. A solution of
      sodium silicate (water glass) is poured into the engine crankcase
      and the engine is started. The heat causes the solution to turn to
      glass and seize the crankshaft. That approach might be helpful in
      stabilizing hot spots in the fuel racks. I had to wait a couple weeks for the admin to create my account. I hope that is of value in your search for a stabilization approach.


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  • PhilipUpNorth PhilipUpNorth

    A hot working fuel load was removed from Reactor4 in November of 2010, when the unit was taken out of service for replacement of the shroud. So a second auxiliary pump was installed just to handle the extra cooling load of this hot fuel. Spent fuel assemblies in #4SFP have been compromized when the roof blew off, the walls were blown out, and debris rained down on them. Pumps failed, leaks occurred, and water boiled away. Fires broke out in the #4 pools. SFP4 was so hot that helicopters tried to dump water on it. Finally, seawater was pumped into the pool. Then the entire building began to settle unevenly. Photos show a MOX fuel load in the spent fuel pool. Now, the boron wafers seem to have degraded. Clearly, the operators of the newly installed cranes have their work cut out for them removing spent fuel from Unit4. Some of the spent fuel assemblies are going to break open during handling. The unprotected fuel pellets are going to spill and fission. No two ways about it. Fuel removal at Unit4 is going to be a long, slow process. They will have to figure out how to handle spilled fuel pellets before they melt.


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    • markww markww

      Hey Good Morning Phillip, If you look just above my process can be done in a matter of days or weeks. There is a way to MIX the Dry agents with a concrete slurry You go down to each fuel bundle and INJECT the material Filling each small square fuel bundle which contains so many rods. When it is full and sets The mixture seals in the radiation and can't produce the heat like they do now. Once you pull the rod bundle container you put it in a encasement and seal and bury. The mix contains everything froom dry agents to concrete mixture you use it after adding the dry stuff like what you see when a concrete truck mixes and dumps, This material when injected through a hypo injector that has a small camera on it, tehy fill each rod bundle which there are many, as you fill and they harden,you pull them out of the fuel pool. Once pulled you can put a seperator inside and go to the next bundle and do the same thing. It would only take weeks to do the process instead of the many years of people twiddling their thumbs.

      See I was trained and also worked for NASA I learned I also studied in my own time for 4 years about chemicals and additives, and how to deal with Things like this

      Markww


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      • PhilipUpNorth PhilipUpNorth

        Many thanks, Markww. You have great ideas on mitigation of Fukushima radiation. Wish you were there, because they are acting on such bad advice.

        Assume the fuel assemblies would become attached to rack, and that you would pull the entire rack out of the pool.
        Imagine the rack would have too much radiation to be withdrawn from the pool.
        Truck driver in full radiation suit and mask?
        Bury how deep?
        Concrete and lead "encasement" to keep groundwater from flowing around burried racks?
        Assume this method works for MOX fuel assemblies?
        Great work, Mark. ;)


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  • Kerry Kerry

    markww, I was thinking the same thing this morning, as I was putting powdered borax detergent in my washing machine. But how would it be in the pool, solid or soup-like? Perhaps they could use the concrete pumping truck the US sent (providing they properly license it to drive on Japanese roads)!

    The thought of these semi/non-skilled workers playing a deadly game of 'pick up sticks' is probably the most scariest news to come out of there yet.


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  • markww markww

    The Hypo Injector would go to the bottom of each rack bundle as a Semi Mix Slurry and harden in the tubes and surround the bundle cavity . The cavity has a outer steel shell Square,so the mix would harden and surround all the 12 to 24 foot bundle rods, the whole bundle in the cavity would then be protected and able to be pulled and encased in vertical containers something like filling a tooth.
    Markww


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    • AFTERSHOCK AFTERSHOCK

      as usual markww, your suggestions are brilliant. Glad to see you're still in there and punching back! I have two questions regarding your SMS 'fix': how would the additional weight effect the structural integrity of the pool, itself. Prospective criticalities aside, this would require analysis and factoring-in before moving forward. Next, how would the SMS hardened fuel assemblies be separated during withdrawal from the pool and post-processing for long-term storage elsewhere…

      Thanks markww and keep up the good work…


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      • markww markww

        the structure in videos show rod bundles in racks racked together something like a large square and in the square are square bundle racks each with its own encasement, you remote fill each one cause they have had cameras down there so you put like a huge HYPO NEEDLE into each cavity to the bottom of each bundle pack and fill and do each one till full then pull out after hardening, and put into vertilee containers and seal withe the same mixture. The weight is not going to hurt even if the bundles are warped they fill and seal likr filling a tooth.

        Markww


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      • Actually, something quite like markww's idea could work quite well, at least with the older assemblies. My guess is it would have to be done one assembly at a time due to the weight issue you raise, but defueling the pool was never going to be a quick and easy task.

        The newer assemblies and recent core are another matter, as these will be the assemblies that suffered the most damage from overheating and cladding fires. But if most everything else can be safely removed, some new ideas on those could come along. Maybe lowering steel bottomless boxes (one at a time) to encompass a section of assemblies plus assorted broken rods and debris, then filling those with the mixture. When hardened these blocks could be pulled out and put into bigger, badder shielding casks to keep radiation to a minimum in proximity to those casks.

        Finally, when all intact assemblies, large broken pieces and debris have been removed, drain the pool to just above the level of mixed slurry and smaller junk, inject the whole thing. Should be able to take the weight because of much-reduced volume. Then drop the pool (demolish that end of the ruin) and turn it into a mosoleum, big solid borated concrete structure. Since they won't be going down for the corium, they could demolish the entire ruin and ground-cask it with that mosoleum.

        Alas, still the possibility of criticalities during all that work. But it is something to consider.


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        • AFTERSHOCK AFTERSHOCK

          great minds think alike JoyB and markww! You both developed the same strategy. I'm impressed! I only hope the spooks are doing their job and pass this thread on to their superiors. Given the fact that billions are being spent each day to monitor this communications medium, someone's likely awake in the bunker…


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          • Something closely akin to this sort of plan would limit inadvertent criticalities or a renewed chain reaction. But to be honest, I am not seeing much hope coming from Japan (or anywhere else) that the SFPs will ever actually be dealt with. TEPCO seems to do nothing at all until is has to (minus the cosmetic busy-work), then it just shrugs and says 'Oops.'

            So I'm not at all confident that anything beyond temporary stopgaps and general cosmetics will ever be done. They may be experiencing criticalities in one or more SFP now, so are focusing on their little plumbing issues instead. Criticalities are dangerous and uncontrollably hot (both in temperature and radiation), humans require considerable distance and shielding – as in, MORE than coveralls and a gas mask – when they happen. Pools are not reactor-grade steel, hold no pressure, and their packed load of used fuel would make a much bigger corium mess than a single melted core's worth already sitting in water underground.


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        • Gasser Gasser

          http://rt.com/news/fukushima-apocalypse-fuel-removal-598/

          Now scientist say man is made outta Plutonium mud
          A radioactive man's just contaminated muscle and blood
          Cesium muscle and blood and skinny to the bones
          A mind that's weakened and a back that groans

          You remove sixteen fuel rods, what do you get
          Another day contaminated and deeper in sweat
          Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
          I owe my soul to melted Corium's that won't show

          I was born one mornin' when the Corms did shine
          I picked up my shovel and I walked there with no mind
          I unloaded sixteen tons of fuel reactor rods
          Yakuza boss said “Well, you may have beat the odds"

          You unload sixteen tons, what do you get
          Another day radiated and wetter in sweat
          Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
          I owe my soul to the Yakuza for my money flow

          I woke up one mornin', it was drizzlin' radioactive rain
          Frightened and troubled as they called my name
          I was raised on a hook by a big mutha' crane
          Then a Yakuza boss made me tie a fuel pool line

          You unload sixteen tons, what do you get
          Another day polluted as you Cesium sweat
          Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
          I'm too freaking polluted and faith to damn low

          If you see me glown', better step aside
          A lotta men didn't, a lotta men died
          One fist of Americium, the other of Neptunium
          If the right one don't contaminate you
          Then the left one will

          You unload sixteen tons, what do you…


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      • markww markww

        look at my comment with Phillip just above.This should explain how to do and fill and fix.

        Markww


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  • Did a writeup and found some real data from Japan. Please check it out. This is radioactive sludge in Tokyo areas, quite a bit of I-131 seems awful suspicious to me….fresh criticalities have been happening as the boron plates have failed and boron water only works when there is a physical space between the used fuel.

    This is the English Page

    Funny how some samples can be detected at 17 CPM but then others say <50 (none detected, but 50 is the minimum we can detect today. Hmmm maybe the reading is 48)

    Keep in mind, this is Tokyo, pretty far away from the nuclear plant meltdowns.

    http://nukeprofessional.blogspot.com/2013/09/bureau-of-sewerage-tokyo-area.html


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  • TheBigPicture TheBigPicture

    You'll want to get the hell out of dodge (Northern Hemisphere) if this chain reaction happens.


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    • That's only a temporary fix.

      If there are some criticalities, that wont be ELE==not worth scrambling to Brazil.

      If the whole pool topples, that could be ELE


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      • markww markww

        Hello Stock about a year ago I submitted firefighting procedures as to fighting a fuel pool fire IT IS NOT A ELE event if it burns. There are 25 liquids you mix and pump through fire hoses and it can not only put the fire out but also stop the chain reactions in the burning cladding and materials. Have HOPE brother

        Markww


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  • behappy1

    Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends.

    Watch the master magician Tepco

    Watch reactor 4 SFP burn for over 9 hours
    then Tepco pull out 2 pristine rods

    Watch them hammer away and saw #4 reactor building in half
    then Tepco put her back together again

    Watch the experts proclaim the danger of fuel rod fire
    Watch Tepco prove those experts wrong

    http://enenews.com/gundersen-tepco-watch-audience-uproar-after-official-fuel-pool-burn-video

    Watch the new lovely assistant #4
    while Tepco dilutes tons of melted fuel before your very eyes

    The fuel pool went dry, the rods already burned in #4
    Watch Tepco remove , lol

    #4 is the great Tepco magicians distraction
    Why no talk of # 3, 2, or 1
    Why no talk of the melted reactor cores.

    Even if the great Tepco can remove a rod
    remember, its all just magic.


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