Japan Nuclear Expert: Melted fuel may have gone through cement floor and into ground under Fukushima reactors — I don’t believe Tepco’s claim for one second — Where in the world is it? (VIDEO)

Published: August 23rd, 2012 at 9:09 pm ET
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Atomic Age Symposium II: Fukushima, May 5, 2012 – Session III Roundtable
Published: August 22, 2012
Published by: University of Chicago

Transcript Excerpt

Hiroaki Koide, nuclear reactor specialist and Assistant Professor at Kyoto University’s Nuclear Research Institute:

The problem right now is not figuring out what the cause of the explosion [at Unit 3] is, but where in the world is the melted nuclear material that is in the plant right now?

Unfortunately we have no way of figuring this out…

We can’t go in and look… there’s nothing we can do at this point…

Like I said we have no idea where the melted nuclear core is at this point…

100 tons [was in reactor]…

Fell through steel reactor…

So where did the melted material go from there? It fell into the containment vessel and what is that made of? Also steel.

But what Tepco has been telling us is that underneath that steel is a floor of cement and that cement hasn’t melted yet.

But it’s not as if Tepco has gone there and seen if this is the case or anything like that. It’s based on calculations that they claimed to have worked out that way.

But I don’t believe it for one second.

There’s at least a possibility that it’s gone through all of it and leaked into the ground…

If something like that happens, there’s a strong possibility that it leaks into the environment and the ocean is right there.

I’ve been advocating since last May that a wall be built underground…

That’s really all I know at this point. I really hope something is done so the material doesn’t spread to the greater environment and I’m going to do all I can do to prevent that from happening.

Watch the full 2 hour 45 minute video here

Published: August 23rd, 2012 at 9:09 pm ET
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90 comments to Japan Nuclear Expert: Melted fuel may have gone through cement floor and into ground under Fukushima reactors — I don’t believe Tepco’s claim for one second — Where in the world is it? (VIDEO)

  • Time Is Short Time Is Short

    There was a previous post here about the GE Mark I owner's manual stating that it would take 18 minutes for a melted core to breach the containment. So everyone knew what happened within the first 18 minutes.

    We've seen the photos of corium coming out of the exterior piping.

    So, did the concrete hold, have the thousands of earthquakes caused the floor to crack, and somewhat critically, how far underneath the cement floor is the water table?

    Yes, no one can get anywhere near the underneath of the NPPs, but with all the steam coming out of the ground, there's a very good possibility the coriums went right through the cement floor.

    It's been, what, a year and a half of cooking under there? And no way to clean it up, even if anyone knew where it was.

    A lot of questions about how the horse got out of the barn, when the 'experts' should be asking how do we keep the horse from dying of cancer?


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  • weeman

    Where is it we have three options contained, uncontained and aerosol, you would think that would not be hard to determine, infrared, sonar, air samples etc. they know.


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  • dosdos dosdos

    At this point, it doesn't matter where it is, it's polluting the groundwater and ocean wherever it is sitting. And don't take that as point A or point B, but rather trails and scattered globs and veins, following lines of least resistance. In the reactor, out of the reactor, both, doesn't really matter, it's a big sieve. And you can't damn a river by simply dropping cement into it. You have to stop the flow before it can set.


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    • Didn't they lay down a couple of thick coats of concrete/clay on the seabed of the lagoon and outflow (cliffside of units 3 & 4, outside the breakwater), just this past March? The seabed is certainly underwater.

      I saw something somewhere at the time about mixing boron into the gunk, but can't find it now. Anybody recall that?


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      • Atomfritz Atomfritz

        They did, but boron is not needed there.


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        • Need a link, damned if I can find it.

          Yeah, they had an 'extra' 150 tons of boron oxide shipped in during March '11 from USAF, France and South Korea, but didn't use it past March because they'd regained power and were trying hard to remediate the damage being done by salt water injection (with boron, but boron's about as corrosive).

          Deal is, if they did mix the boron into the cement/mud of the first layer, it would serve pretty well as a core-catcher. Which is sort of what I figured they were really doing all along – contamination in the lagoon didn't have ready access to the ocean anyway, didn't need cementing (did they ever once care how crapped up the ocean got?). Besides, groundwater that's been in contact with the coriums leaks out of the cliff every day, constantly. They haven't stopped that (can't), apparently have no plans to keep pasting the seabed from now until forever. What's the point?


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  • From all their disaster movies I have seen (both real and imagined), I thought the Japanese would meet this "monster" head on. What I mean is really do what the professor said and build a underground wall to contain any corium or leaks. Yes, it would be a huge undertaking, but what the heck, the country is on the line. Why is Japan not putting every dime and resource available to fix this terrible problem? Their politicians must be suicidal…


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    • andagi andagi

      Dear stellarblue1,
      My confusion exactly.
      Aloha.


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    • Anthony Anthony

      The Utility Company is calling the shots for the country and the world.

      How can this be?

      How is this allowed to continue to be?


      Report comment

      • Really good questions Anthony.

        I'll do my best. I am sure others could say more.

        "How can this be?"
        Those who control the Nuclear Industries seem to have a whole lot of money and control for some reason. hmmm…(?) They are powerful and do not wish for their livelihood (scam) to ever stop. Not enough people know or understand what's really happening.

        "How is this allowed to continue to be?"
        Nobody wants to take responsibility for something they ALREADY KNOW is a complete FAIL of immense proportions. Better to sit back and let TEPCO take the fall. Then the blame game will start, but it won't really matter.


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    • PhilipUpNorth philipupnorth

      Pride won't allow Japan to admit the magnitude of this disaster. Japan should, and must, put everything they have into containing this disaster. Perhaps they believe that Fuku is beyond their ability to control. I believe that mankind must fight to control Fuku, or die trying. To simply die without trying is cowardly. We know from history that Japan attacked the US in WW2, which showed tremendous bravery. Now it is up to the Japanese to look within, find their bravery once again, and attack Fuku with everything they have, or die trying. NOW! Sweep TEPCO aside completely. TEPCO does nothing. Bring in the Army.


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      • chrisk9

        Phillip, a number of good points. Pride and "saving face" are things some Japanese friends explained to me when I first went there. I am not sure if the bravery you speak of was not just the pride issue also. As individual people they are willing to be brave for the countries sake, because traditionally they have been a very nationalistic country. But younger people are questioning these ideals more and more.
        They are however appearing to be unwilling to lose face over this situation, and where is the international pressure to actually do something that improves things.
        TWO bundles moved and waiting!!


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  • CaptD CaptD

    They know and have known, they are just now "prepping" folks for the reality that the Pacific Ocean is gong to be contaminated by Fukushima even more than it has already been…

    What they are not saying is that their Cofferdam project to contain the corium is going to work and or that they have failed to build an underground "base mat" below the reactors to keep ground water and the Corium(s) from joining…

    Radioactive steam and or worse may be in our Future!


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  • Sol Man

    We're in bad shape, folks. Here we have the biggest story in the history of the world and evidence here that very few people are tuned in to it. Perhaps it doesn't matter, when we're put of here – that's it.


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  • TheBigPicture TheBigPicture

    Hundred tons of melted fuel permeating Japan. And beyond. Forever.


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  • Replacant Replacant

    On this site we have been asking that question from the beginning when the first reports that Fukushima was a 'melt through' not just a 'melt down'. Now a year and a half later still no barrier built to prevent the cores from melting down further, even Russia knew to do that.

    Its scary to realize the Japanese Government is going to do the minimum and hope that the contamination wont be noticed or reported. By the time cancer rates sky rocket and weird diseases start killing off plants, animals, fish and humans even more than now; Tepco will shrug and ask how can you prove it was Fukushima. Just like all those years when Big Tobacco said 'Cigarettes there isnt a direct cancer link'.


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  • rambojim

    Kyodo News for August 24,2012

    Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda on Wednesday,made no concessions to organizers of weekly antinuclear demonstrations in front of his office,reiterating that his recent decision to restart two nuclear reactors was necessary to protect people's lives..

    This maniac and his cronies are going to kill you all dear Japanese people, and many of us on this planet also….


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    • AGreenRoad AGreenRoad

      That is why there is a strong movement to start a Green Party in Japan.

      But the situation in Japan politically is NO different than what is present in the US..

      A dualopoly, locking out all other interests other than huge corporations.

      Since the media is owned by those same huge monopolies, all that is covered by that media complex is either neutral or friendly to the 1%.

      If bad news about corporations is covered, it is given very short time, almost no depth and no repeats.. just a couple short sound bites and then on to some juicy trials that are covered in GREAT depth, plus repeated ad nauseum for months.

      Propoganda glorifying corporations is repeated over and over until the masses believe that corporations are the saviours of humankind, including nuclear industries, delivering power 'too cheap to meter', and too clean to measure.

      Would you like a red pill or a blue pill, that is the question.

      Do not pay any attention to the few men behind the curtain pulling the strings…


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  • harengus_acidophilus

    "Where in the world is it?"
    On the long way to central station…

    h.


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  • TheWorldIsBlind

    "to china, it goes" in a yoda voice. some one mentioned yoda earlier. lol. but no lol @chinasyndrome #chinasyndrome


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  • Altheasunlvr

    The governments (all of them) know exactly where the Coriums are at. There were heat images provided in previous pictures (don't have that link, but they are there). They are able to discern such from space images of other planets, pickup on sunflares, use satellites to track "warm bodies"…..they know exactly where these heat sources are at. They are not publishing this information to the public, as we would then know too much. As the famous enenewer's quote repeats…"move along now; nothing to see here….".


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    • Well, sure. And there is technology to detect high energy gamma as well as fast neutron radiation as well. I'm pretty sure they're cognizant of where the corium is and is going.

      IMO, that wouldn't be straight down through rock. Like any other liquid, corium will seek its level (follow gravity) by following the path of least resistance. That would most likely be along fissures and soft inclusions in the shattered ground, following the groundwater. Which is exiting the cliff into the lagoon and intake/outflows to each side of the lagoon. Where they recently laid about a foot of cement/clay.


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  • Altheasunlvr

    Hmmmm….sp error…."enenewsers…"


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  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    Mr.Koide is a brave and honorable man.
    I admire him.
    I also get the sense..he can't quite make his mouth say the words.
    It's very hard to say..some of the things we here already know.
    I wish him strength.


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  • rambojim

    I wish him guts – to make his mouth say the words…


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  • Sickputer

    Melt-down, melt-through, and melt-out. They admitted only the first one (took them 3 months after 311).

    The last two we suspect, but they have given little details. The silence probably means the news is really bad. Fissures leading to the ocean, massive amounts of underground water coursing across the blobs and following the incline downward to the sea. If true the real corium battles are going on out of camera view. Borax and cement into injection wells ahead of the fissures. There has been an awful lot of cement trucks traveling to Fukushima NPP.


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    • Atomfritz Atomfritz

      "The silence probably means the news is really bad."

      Yes!
      After the reactors popped, the earth started to constantly shake.
      TEPCO knows why the earth at the plant is constantly fissuring!

      FUKUZILLA is hatching and they try to avoid him escape earth.
      So they grouted the area above with thousand truckfuls of concrete above the FUKUZILLA egg and placed giant heavy tanks atop.

      Let's pray FUKUZILLA won't stand up, smash the reactors and eat the corium!


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  • gottagetoffthegrid

    Well, the NRC Chairman and his experts concluded the cores were "x-vessel and out of containment " back in march 2011. This was based on their observations and models.

    That means there is little doubt that the cores — 1,2 and 3 — are in the rock beneath the buildings.

    Depending on the transmissivity of the rockmass, the steam production could be small. But if it hits an aquifer, lookout.

    I look forward to the day that I can visit this site and read good news.
    Keep strong, all, it's gonna be a long haul.


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  • PhilipUpNorth philipupnorth

    As many ENEnewsers have said from 311 on, 300 tons of Coriums1,2,&3 are in bedrock somewhere under Buildings1,2,&3. And it ain't going "away". Where exactly is the corium, TEP.gov?


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  • RJ RJ

    What’s really maddening/heartbreaking/shocking is 1) watching all of the shoppers going about their daily rituals of buying fish, meat, veggies, etc with no concern about where it’s from. The $25 dollar watermelons from Yamagata selling out. Most of lettuce these days is from Nagano after the Kyushu crops were destroyed by heavy rains. 2) The few times I do bring up my concerns to a Japanese and their response: a) from the more opinionated types “But the government said……….”, and the less opinionated b) the smile and facial expression as they look at me as some crazy foreigner after telling them that I don’t eat fish anymore.

    I can’t put my finger on it. Do the citizens understand the situation but just avoid talking about it? Are they just going about their daily lives ignoring the crises? It’s just really hard for me to believe that most Japanese are really that brainwashed. The saddest part of all this is what I see going into the grocery basket for family dinners, lots of fish and sushi and sashimi. These poor kids and their oblivious parents. I’m afraid there will be a high price to pay when the shit hits the fan. Japan will cease to exist as a modern nation, all because of the government / industry cabal.


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    • dka

      I talked to a hairdresser in my city in Cananda and I mentioned the Fukushima nuclear explosion last year and her reaction was: what? there was a nuclear explosion? And after some time she rememberer something about it last year.
      Just to show you, if people are 100% brainwashed here, they are also brainwashed there, but they know much more than people know here. It seems that 80% of the croud relies on main streem news. And in Japan, it is taboo and will get you in serious trouble to dissagree openly with the main streem media. Everybody knows it means you dissagree with the hierarchy and that would jeoperdize your company managements. So people who know and feel that there are still some problem with Fukushima 1 often keep quiet, which makes it difficult for others who do not know about the problems to learn about them. Plus, people work 16 hours per day there, are zombie on Saturday and work on Sunday, so no time to be informed intelligently or anything else positive.


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    • Michele

      Hello RJ. Is your avatar Geronimo the Apache Chief? I thought that I would commiserate with you because we share the same frustrations when dealing with apathetic people who are facing dire circumstances. I reside in the NW area of Michigan's lower peninsular, on the 45th. parallel; tourism, vineyards and orchards of cherries define this community. I know that the government and the energy industry have made it difficult to inform the citizens here because they did not want negativity expressed over the nuclear power plants. I have followed the articles about Fuku since the beginning and have tried my best to educate my family and few friends. But the society has become disinterested and disbelieving that a nuclear crisis half way around the world will affect them and they are uneducated about the danger of radiation.

      There must be something psychological in the make-up that allows people to continue without concern. Another example of this behavior has to do with America's 911 and the expert information given about those towers and especially Building 7. Architects, engineers, firefighters and policemen have all given testimony to the fact that what we saw happen was an illusion. And still people are indifferent. To think differently than what we are told or what everyone else believes is uncomfortable, shows a lack of faith in our "leaders", and makes our credibility questioned. Do what you can, but realize the uphill battle.


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  • Jebus Jebus

    You gotta love MsMilkytheclown's satire…
    Wait for it, it's on topic and a companion to the above topic video.

    Nuclear Waste: You've Got to Hear This! Fukushima NRC update 8/23/12

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgfJCwumDHk


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  • RJ RJ

    Oh….and P.S.

    There’s a report on three Japanese news sites (English version) of a new pole/discussion about the future of Japans’ energy policy. The results say almost 50% of the respondents said they wanted to end nuclear power by 2030.

    http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T120822004329.htm
    http://mainichi.jp/english/english/newsselect/news/20120822p2g00m0dm029000c.html
    http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201208220306.html

    Upon further reading, only 290 people took part in this pole/discussion, but it’s on all the top news sites. Read into it as you see fit.


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  • Lacsap Lacsap

    Remember the holes for the fuel rods in the bottom of the reactors? The corium must atleast been dripping out of these holes. The basements of the reactors are flooded with water. If the corium is in the basement then the water will cool it enough to prevent the corium from melting father down. In my view the corium lies in the basement cooled by water which creates steam and hydrogen.

    Melt-through of the reactor vessel may take from a few tens of minutes to several hours. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corium_%28nuclear_reactor%29

    After breaching the reactor vessel, the conditions in the reactor cavity below the core govern the subsequent production of gases. If water is present, steam and hydrogen are generated http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corium_%28nuclear_reactor%29


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  • many moons

    For the past 17 months people have been asking," where have the cores gone?"
    Seems pretty ridiculous. How the hell can they begin to clean up the damage if no one knows where the dangerous fuel went or won't admit to where it may have gone.


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  • Sickputer

    I don't know where the cores are, but Hitachi and GE were obviously very proud Unit 4's vessel cover came through the earthquake (see below). Well, the vessel was empty right?

    http://www.nirs.org/images/unit4vesselhead.jpg


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  • Sickputer

    For us non-nuclear engineers this article from last year has a good diagram of the Boiling Water Reactor internal building design and some intelligent remarks by the Santa Barbara professor:

    http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/energy/nuclear/nuclear-risk-expert-fukushimas-fuel-could-still-seep-out

    I have seen several figures listed for depth of the last concrete floor barrier and 25 feet thick is a common description.

    What a dangerous technology when they can't or won't show what is going on inside the damaged buildings. Maybe they can, but don't want to show us that THE TOMB IS EMPTY! The Nuclear King has left the building.

    If you want to see some scary artificial intelligence, just poke around looking for a 100-ton blob of molten nuclear fuel. The scientists and military eggheads who decided to turn bombs into steam producers must have been stark raving insane, but they fooled virtually all the politicians. Probably because the politicians were too busy counting their campaign contributions. Vicious circle.


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  • vital1 vital1

    This FM radio show podcast has helped me get the message across to friends, and relatives on how serious the Fukushima nuclear disaster is.

    Because it is on a radio station it carries more weight when trying to convince friends and relatives. It has with mine. So if you can use it as a resource please do. In the Interview it points people to enenews, Fairewinds, Dr Busby and Dr Caldicott.

    The podcast link is at the top of the page, and the interview starts after a bit of an introduction on synchronicity.

    http://www.greenplanetfm.com/members/greenradio/blog/VIEW/00000001/00000193/
    Peter-Daley-on-the-Fukushima-Radiation-Cloud-over-Australia–NZ.html#00000193


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  • Max1 Max1

    Step one: Cement quay.
    Step two: Deny, deny, deny.


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  • Grampybone Grampybone

    The fuel that did not exit the building in the first few explosions is now digging through containment structures. The fuel has constant emission that are caused from small fission reactions with the isotopes the radiation comes into contact with. Concrete is what we will be seeing most of these isotopes being formed from as well as seawater which TEPCO attempted to stop the reactions with. Seawater gave us the excessive Iodine fission products. The concrete is showing Xenon that breaks down into Cesium and other alpha emitters. The next set of radioactive isotopes we can expect are going to come from an event where the core melts through containment completely. A small amount of core will interact with sand and loose soil releasing a set of isotopes with a new range of properties that are contained in the beach underneath the containment. This reaction will eventually lead to the core interacting with the water table. When this occurs all bets are off. The time it takes for the core to melt through is indefinite and it does not look like TEPCO can even get close enough to work due to ambient radiation. The explosion caused from 3 cores touching the water table is something science has yet to see. The interaction could occur swift and violently or slowly where emissions of radioactive isotopes stifles the surrounding landscape over a period of years. Either way millions will die.


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    • PhilipUpNorth philipupnorth

      Nice post, and was accurate last year, before the end of March, Grampybone. Now, not so much. Why have most 'Newsers concluded that the Coriums are ex-Building?
      1. Steam rising from fisures in ground between Units1,2,&3.
      2. TEP.gov plan to intercept groundwater by drilling a series of wells uphill, diverting groundwater into the Pacific after testing.
      3. TEP.gov plan to build steel cofferdam between Fuku and Pacific to keep groundwater which has flowed around corium from reaching the Ocean.
      http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushima-np/roadmap/images/m120528-e.pdf

      BTW, since Coriums1,2,&3 have been in water table for more than a year now, not to worry about steam explosions.


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  • Sickputer

    Pun sez; "BTW, since Coriums1,2,&3 have been in water table for more than a year now, not to worry about steam explosions."

    SP: Good point. They will probably not explode in a nuclear sense unless really disturbed by some cracking force.

    Tepco thinks they have weathered the storm for explosions and they may be right. Even Unit 4 probably will survive barring another 9.0 earthquake. After all, they did install 32 huge 44-ton steel struts under floor two and with that much support they just might feel confident spent fuel pond 4 will survive until the rods cool for removal in late 2013. They may know from the shape of the masses in the pool that even that date is too optimistic, but feel they can wait it out fof a decade if needed.

    So their main concern is the underground water coursing over 100-ton coriums and flowing to the ocean. This will be obviously never stop without some technological barrier they must feel is humanly impossible.

    So face it…Japan is screwed forever from residual air fallout from the debris currently above ground and the east coast shoreline will produce toxic seafood and eventually even the idiots in the Diet will be forced to call it an offlimits exclusion zone (goodbye Tokyo Bay!). By then I expect the government will have relocated to far southern Japan and Tokyo will gradually become a mutant ghost town over the next 50 years.

    Madness in Japan. Sayonara Tokyo.


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  • Atomfritz Atomfritz

    Don't worry, SP.
    At Fuku the Japanese have been very lucky.
    No reactor popped open, they only leaked a bit.


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    • Jebus Jebus

      "At Fuku the Japanese have been very lucky."

      Wow, that's some good shit youre on Atomfritz, and youre not sharing. Any links to support your statements, that is.

      Because I wouldn't want any brain numbing substance that makes me so callous that I would trivialize the nightmare that these real humans are going through.

      "No reactor popped open, they only leaked a bit."

      That nuclear stuff is rotting your brain to come up with an ignorant statement like that with no supporting evidence.

      Here's something to put in your pipe and smoke…
      Breathe deep homey…

      Hi-res photographic proof reactor core exploded at unit 3

      The top of the primary containment vessel, as well as the top of the reactor itself, is simply GONE.
      Even to a layperson, it is obvious that this means that the huge hydrogen explosion at unit 3 must have occurred in the reactor itself, and that the entire top of the reactor containment vessel was obliterated, ejecting the contents of the core – as well as the spent fuel pool- into the atmosphere.
      This means, obviously, that significant quantities of plutonium were released, and that the release of radiation from unit 3 alone must be many times higher than has been admitted for the entire
      complex – Chernobyl pales in comparison.

      http://news.lucaswhitefieldhixson.com/2011/04/hi-res-photographic-proof-reactor-core.html


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  • Lacsap Lacsap

    The reactor vessel is located above the fuel rods
    The dry well is located inside the reactor itself
    The containment (around the reactor) is only designed to contain or condense steam in the short term.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Containment_building

    The corium melted through the bottom of the reactor into the basement which is flooded with water (first by tsunami now Tepco). The water cools the corium enough from melting father down.


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  • pjrsullivan

    Nuclear technology, rather than a mistake, might this not all be part of an elaborate plan to die the human race?

    Tens of thousands of nuclear blast weapons have been hurled at us over the decades, each time our elders from space have pulled them off of us.

    Weap Judah still is the only party authorized to issue our money. With this authority to issue our money he has America waging wars in 74 nations while simultaneously is hiring open air burning of nuclear waste at Hitachi-GE.

    Rather than mistake or accident, might weap Judah actually be trying to poison on out the environment so that we cannot survive any longer on planet earth? Might it not be like the Star Trek movie the "Wrath of Khan," where Captain Kirk left Khan "stranded on a burned out planet to die?"

    Might the actual plan of the guys who built tens of thousands of nuclear weapons and hundreds of nuclear power plant dirty bombs, have an agenda here that we might divine by looking at what it is they are doing here?

    Might the dirty bomb power plants not be their back up in case their nuclear blast weapons fail?

    Judah shot their bolt with their blast weapons and our extraterrestrial friends saved us. Must labor not give us a hand and STRIKE THEM OUT and take our purse into our own hands so that we can hire the engineers needed to shut this dirty bomb down?

    Must we not prevent ourselves from being left stranded on a burned out planet to die?

    http://bitchworld.weebly


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