Japan Times: “The great unknown” — Where will nuclear fuel be found after “melt-through” at 3 Fukushima reactors? Official Expert: Humans may have to hunt for corium after raising limits on radiation exposure

Published: October 19th, 2013 at 3:28 pm ET


Japan Times, Oct. 19, 2013: […] The government has been notably slow to act on several occasions, which has even left pro-nuclear advocates scratching their heads in bewilderment. […] Presuming Tepco is able to control the spread of contamination beyond 2015, it would still have only scratched the surface of the issue. The mammoth task of removing the melted nuclear fuel and debris from the reactors lies ahead. […] removing the spent fuel rods from the reactor 4 cooling pool […] merely puts Tepco and the government on a collision course with the hitherto great unknown: finding the melted nuclear fuel […] Nuclear fuel inside reactors 1, 2 and 3 is believed to have breached the inner containment vessels and accumulated in the outer steel containment vessels — what experts describe as a “melt-through.” Assuming the reactor pressure vessels are submerged [it] still won’t help much in figuring out where the nuclear fuel is located. […]

Michio Ishikawa, president of the Association for Nuclear Decommissioning Study: “On a scale of zero to 10, I’d say the decommissioning process has advanced by about 0.1 […] I think the prime minister was right in saying that things are under control now [but] predicting what the situation will be in 2020 is still very difficult.” […] “[Melted nuclear fuel] could be mixed with other metal, it could be as hard as iron or as breakable as a concrete block […] There is no way to know such factors and, without them, removal isn’t a possibility.” Ishikawa believes that designing a specialized robot to locate the melted fuel is probably going to be required. If that doesn’t work, easing the upper limit of radiation exposure for decontamination workers at the Fukushima No. 1 power plant is going to be essential […]

See also: [intlink id=”uc-berkeley-nuclear-professor-work-to-go-on-for-thousands-of-years-at-fukushima-site-could-be-impossible-to-remove-melted-fuel-containment-vessels-may-not-survive-audio” type=”post”]{{empty}}[/intlink]

Published: October 19th, 2013 at 3:28 pm ET


Related Posts

  1. Japan Nuclear Expert: Simply impossible to remove melted fuel from Fukushima — Corium “has spread all over… could actually have gone through floor of containment vessel” — Only way to deal with these reactors releasing dangerous radiation is to cover in concrete — Will take centuries of work (VIDEO) April 27, 2015
  2. Wired: ‘Healthy debate’ about location of Fukushima corium — Lava can melt a foot of concrete per hour — Cooling with water may not stop corium flow April 18, 2013
  3. AP: Melted fuel may have “dropped even beyond” the bottom of Fukushima plant — ‘China Syndrome’ predicted by US gov’t analysis — IAEA Expert: Pools of corium beneath reactors are up to 2 stories high (VIDEO) March 30, 2015
  4. Asahi: Locations and condition of melted Fukushima fuel unknown — Mainichi: 450 tons of scattered radioactive rods… unknown where holes in reactors are… plans may be delayed June 11, 2013
  5. Reuters: Fukushima fuel melted through containment vessels and is “spewing radiation” — Nuke Expert: Fuel has “scattered all over the place” — Gov’t: Fuel may have burned out into environment — Tepco Official: Fuel could have flowed out “like lava in a volcano” (VIDEOS) March 15, 2016

119 comments to Japan Times: “The great unknown” — Where will nuclear fuel be found after “melt-through” at 3 Fukushima reactors? Official Expert: Humans may have to hunt for corium after raising limits on radiation exposure

  • SS4U SS4U

    for real ?
    you mean there is no technology in existence that can pinpoint the location undersground ? this does not pass the smell test.

    how about they start by looking for hotspots emitting high rad readings. thats a good clue.

    am I missing something ?

    • Bones Bones

      Agreed, they most certainly have or can make I'm 1000% sure some type of gamma ray camera. We know ccd's pick up gamma ray radiation so I'm sure some tweaking of the ccd's would make an excellent detector for such high radiation readings. (Not looking for a speck of plutonium rather a giant blob.) So step one, locate. Step two, get instruments around (geological surveys) and in as close to the core as possible. Heat will probably be a huge problem besides radioactivity once radioactivity can be overcome to some significant degree for testing purposes at least. Step three, Prepare a massive plan for containment. This should be going on the entire process. Obviously, some type of fund at a minimum should be established for international help. I mean like a specific international agency staffed with people who want to be there and who get paid very well even when they finish the project they can then retire and live happily with special privileges like free roam throughout the world something worthwhile for the huge deed. (Newly created just for this crisis and not the IAEA etc.) All this while removing the SFP, whatever is left in any of them anyways. Two teams, why not? An above ground and below ground corium team. Those are just some ideas in a couple minutes so why can't an entire government with a nation at it's "disposal," sickening anymore to think Japan is ruined for good just not what the word means in this context to any non-natives, at least START???…

      • Bones, great ideas… but now we are bailing out the nuclear industry. What about the NUCLEAR INDUSTRY funding this internationally, with taxes paid on every nuclear reactor built or operating, including the research and military ones?

        Why do taxpayers have to bail out a FAILING industry every time they ruin a nation?

        Second; why don't you ask the Capt. to just beam this radioactive mess up to the moon? Of course, that gives a convenient excuse to just continue on building more of these Pandora's boxes of horrors.

        Third, while we are at it, why not evacuate all citizens, beam them all up, who want nothing to do with nuclear and leave the pro nukes to ruin the Earth and commit suicide? No nuclear information or pro nuclear experts allowed to come along.

        How much will it cost to build a beam me up device and a starship to transport a few million people off planet?

        • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

          We have a special going on and it will be all the money left over after congress is done spending it all…on themselves and all their buddies.

    • There is, and it is a very simple matter, using neutron detectors. They KNOW where the coriums are, but are covering it up.

      It is way too bad news to let you know.

      You need way above top secret clearance to know these things.

      Go back to sleep. No need to worry your pretty head.

      Keep shopping, spending money and eating radiation contaminated food.

      Got to stimulate the economy… or ????

    • Radioactive Potassium In Bananas Compared To Cesium, Plutonium, Uranium And Iodine via @AGreenRoad

  • pure water

    I would rather believe that Japan`s priminister eats Fukushia rice, than that the corius are undetectable!

  • Anthony Anthony

    This is all PhillipUpNorth has been asking for at least a year!

    Must be Christmas around here…

  • eatliesndie eatliesndie

    they are thinking of " easing the upper limit of radiation exposure for decontamination workers" if the environment is too radioactive for robots. wtf!? easing the upper limit!? easing!? easing in flesh and bone where metal has failed? as if there will be little consequences for the flesh and bone http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lNc4MvI2s08&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DlNc4MvI2s08 – what evil is this. There is no healing radiation damage.

    • wemadethis wemadethis

      +1 this comment

    • amberlight amberlight

      "what evil is this…"

      Either Ishikawa is abysmally stupid or he thinks WE are! Tell him and the rest of the bigwigs and ex-spurts that according to government decree the radiation level is safe and then throw the lot of them into the deep end of the heated Daiichi swimming pool without life jackets!

    • WavyGravy unobtanium

      If legal blood alcohol limits were raised it would put a stop to drunk driving too.

    • harengus_acidophilus

      Sad but true …

      "easing the upper limit!? easing!?
      easing in flesh and bone where metal has failed?"

      It's not the metal, it's the "electronic brain" who can't work in high radiation. Humans are able to work even as "living deads" for a couple of hours or days.
      Nevertheless, IF this is the only way to maintain the situation, we (mankind) must sacrifice millions to save billons of lives.
      It's horrifying to think about it, but what else?

      Additional to say, easing the limits is the wrong way. This workers will have to go to "suicide work" and we have to honor them with truth and take care of their families.


      • eatliesndie eatliesndie

        +1. honour them, honour their families, and shut down all remaining reactors! Globally .To "SHUT THEM ALL DOWN" is the only way to honour the martyrs and their families, it is the only way to make it worth the sacrifice. End this fucking madness and SHUT THEM ALL DOWN NOW!

        • eatliesndie eatliesndie

          that is what made the work of the martyrs from Chernobyl in vein. The fact that they suffered and died, yet still more will suffer and die in the fruitless effort of cleaning up the next nuclear disaster….fruitless unless every last nuclear reactor in the world is shut down, and all spent fuel is "dealt with"…and I'm fucked if I know how that will be achieved…spent fuel…how do you deal with it?….and there's so much of it….crickey….

  • weeman

    If he is right and it has taken tepco two and a half years to decommission 0.01 percent of the accident, I don't know what we are worried about, that means at that rate in 2250 years of continues leaks into the environment, they will have solved the problems associated with decommissioning, sounds about right to me.
    Only problem I see, will there be anybody left to clean up after 100 years?
    If you want to know we're corium is, send in the A team from tepco, that is all the members of the board of directors of tepco and Abe can be the supreme leader, follow me boys, be happy and keep smiling and you will be fully protected, as per minister of propaganda?
    Why not use a critter camera, you never know we're a rat pokes its nose or a mechanical snake that works on pullies, no electronics involved and expandable to no end,?

    • sangell

      I remember they stuck an endoscope inside a reactor a year or so ago but it didn't reveal very much. Too much steam to see anything clearly. Finding, extracting the melted fuel maybe too difficult as even robots might not be effective. To protect the electronics of the robot so much shielding maybe necessary the robot will be to big and heavy to manoeuver to where the melted fuel is or, if the fuel is still inside the containment vessels breaching them to get at it would so contaminate the site it would be better to just leave it there and entomb the entire structure if they can solve the ground water problem.

      • sangell

        Of course its a fair bet either through rising sea levels ( leave global warming out of the discussion because we are talking thousands of years here or longer than the Great Lakes have been around in their present state) and coastal erosion the whole site will end up in the Pacific one way of the other but it at least it will be contained for all those alive today.

    • unincredulous unincredulous

      Yeah, send in S.W.A.T. Just hope they get the right address.

      If it was a joint, spliff, reefer, or some other contraband they could find it. Tap the phones at Tepco, then they could find it.

  • TheBigPicture TheBigPicture

    W I L L . N O T . C H A N G E . F O R . T H E . B E T T E R

    Human or machine can't get near the corium.

    Doesn't matter who tries: Tepco-Japan, United States, Russia, France .. it can't be done.

  • Jebus Jebus

    Wow, what "experts" describe as a melt through, circa 1979 TMI…

    Is it just me or are the "experts" getting more stupid by the hour.

    Three melt outs, multiple burning spent fuel pools, infinite amounts of radionuclides being released into the environment.

    We suck up the daily routine as if it's all right. Everything's OK.

    What is it going to take to understand that this big blue marble is it.

    It is all that life has and it is getting smaller. We are numb.

    What's it gonna take for humans to understand?

    Collectively, humans have become comfortably numb…


    Never have these lyrics been more true. Listen…

  • Patrick-Henry Patrick-Henry

    The melt through line is a laugher…

    Seriously…they had at least one complete meltdown in the first six months and now there are 3 complete meltdowns GUARANTEED…

    They have no IDEA where those pesky corium went exactly…

    Hey, I'm going to gamble here and say the corium went down; down into the earth, poisoning all groundwater they touch and they are gently Shawshanking their way into the Pacific where they can work their mutagen magic…

    Good times…

    My blessings to you all…

    • Meltdown of a GE BWR of these designs (Mark I & II, slightly different primary containments [drywells] has been gamed more than once. Oak Ridge melted a mockup on purpose some years ago, and TEPCO even had an animated feature used in training describing the course of events well before 2011.

      It takes 16 hours from loss of feedwater with no restoration (complete LOCA) for the reactor core to melt all the way down and start going through the sizable holes in the bottom of the vessel to collect on the drywell floor. Where it goes from there is uncertain, but concrete isn't that difficult to melt. Unit-2's corium (or a hefty part of it) went down the vent conduit(s) to the torus and hit water during that first week. Units 1 and 3 took longer if they went straight down into the basement instead of into the torus, but if they're in the basement (which is actually in the first basement level), they're in water.

      • JoyB, no doubt they must have some idea, some educated guess as to where the coriums are. I don't believe they have no equipment that could help them find a heat or radiation signature. Not that I'm well versed in the technology required just a personal hunch. They are somewhere in the ground below the plant not boring a hole to the earths crust. I read somewhere that the ground itself would act as a heat sink. Also read elsewhere as you suggested melted corium would pick up melted concrete and steel it melted through diluting the mess.
        Sadly although not a dramatic explosion or china syndrome groundwater is carrying massive radiation to the ocean. Even Gunderson says they don't want to fix the problem. They are not asking for international help. Japan wont spend the trillions required to fix or remediate as best they can as it would bankrupt the country. Its sad.

        • Hell, they can probably triangulate all three primary flows from space. Technology on earth can most likely determine depth. We can't trust any of these people to tell us what is actually known about the situation.

      • hbjon hbjon

        When you say they're in water. You mean the top part of the blob would have been exposed to water until the water boiled off, or a thick enough crust of salt formed to insulate the blob from the cooling effects of the water.

        We know they had to use sea water on them. Enough heat energy will cause the salt to decompose and form the outer crust. The inner crust would be the concrete, boron, zirconium, misc. metal, etc.

        As the energy increases, the poor old basement floor gets tore a new one. Blobs on the floor are just not in the proper geometric configuration for today's MOX fuel.

  • The above article is a classic example of spin or as this unrefined politically incorrect Canadian prefers to call it "Bullshit". Perhaps propaganda is a more technical term. The picture of the Olympic logo crap behind PM Obe's ugly face and the question headline "Fukushima 2020: Will Japan be able to keep the nuclear situation under control?" What a way to frame a corporate agenda. They even as you may notice report in "fiscal" years which is March to March. Talk about a corporate agenda.

    “I think the prime minister was right in saying that things are under control now,” Ishikawa said, but “predicting what the situation will be in 2020 is still very difficult.” That part is true. We can only hope enough people wake up. Who knows? Perhaps some deserving corporate types will receive a bullet through their liver. One can always hope.

    Yeah if your talking about the spin, the bullshit, managing the situation, however which way you want to frame it, if newspapers can get away printing this drivel things are well under control.

  • And I can smell the bullshit right across the irradiated Pacific ocean. Don't know where the corium is. Come on. Don't want to say sounds more like it. Don't know what to do? They know what to do but they looked at the price tag and said "Fuck it, we'll just pour water on it and hope for the best". No way they will put out the 20 trillion needed, why that would bankrupt Japan and spiral their precious world economy (that most folk are brainwashed into thinking they need) into a huge recession. We need clean water, clean air and a clean food supply not more money. Obummer and the other world bleeders are suspiciously silent on Fuku Die-ichy dont you think?

  • rogerthat

    i just did a google search for fukushima, 13.4 million. a google search for fukushima cover-up: 12.6 million. ha ha ha.

  • timex

    I think it is pretty clear that the coriums are in vertical line down from each reactors, just not sure how many meters..

    How about this method, look at this monster drill:


    They have these day those monster drills ,and some are actually robots if i understand right, so how about getting that kind of drill or maybe some smaller robot drill to few kilometers from the plant ,then start drilling the tunnel that would be in same line with the all reactors 50-100 meters down from ground.If they could measure the precise location horisontally of the coriums they could drill the tunnel like 10 meters down from them ??

    Dont know is the tunnel robots that could drill vertical , so how to get the final meters to reach the coriums ??

    But if the tunel would be there, they could fist make it stronger with pillars etc….then set up a freezing system down there with cooler equipment, if that would succeed it would give time for the issue what to do and keep keep the coriums cooled…

    They do drill those tunnels in very hard conditions like under the seas so i would like to think it is possible…

    • Corium, like any other liquid, will tend to follow the path of least resistance. For unit-1, that is likely straight down through the drywell pad into the basement levels. For unit-2, it apparently went through an open vent conduit to the torus. For unit-3, what didn't get blown out is 'somewhere else'. If any of the flows made it out of the basements it's probably following the groundwater toward the ocean (path of least resistance). If it's still viscous enough to be moving, and if it's in water that isn't likely.

      They need to divert the groundwater 'river' away by installing a cofferdam uphill of the reservation. Once that is done, some kind of concrete/resin mixture could be injected into the corium 'lava' tubes to immobilize and further insulate the masses. Leave them in the ground or basements, there's no need to dig it out if it isn't in water flowing to the sea.

  • harengus_acidophilus


    "easing the upper limit of radiation exposure for decontamination workers at the Fukushima No. 1 power plant is going to be essential […]"

    IMHO is covering the coria (corium is a latinism, so coria seems to me as the correct plural) with the bodies of dead workers not the best way to shield the radiation. </sarc>


    • KDM KDM

      The Fukushima workers might tell him to "ease" his self in there and find it.

    • soern

      " is covering the coria (corium is a latinism, so coria seems to me as the correct plural)"
      In latin language ending "a" is mainly female.
      Plural of a word ending with "-um" is always "i".
      So plural of corium is corii.

      After gathering many details about melted core research, for me it seems pretty possible, corii sink/melt down straight vertically.
      They do not stop fissioning and nothing can cause their temperature to sink as they don't mix with anything on their way down. Corii are untouchable as everything is vapor before contact at those incredible high temperatures of about 5500°C.
      They will meet magma in about 7 years. The tubes corii melted down
      are glassified and are a perfect way for magma and corrii coming
      back to surface then.
      Tepco and Abe seem to rely on that imho.

      • soern

        Melting temperatures:
        Steel = max 1536°C depending on quality
        Concrete = 1200°C
        Granite = 1400°C

        Boiling Temperatures:
        Steel = max 2500°C
        Concrete = unknown
        Granite = Unknown

        Surface of sun = 5500°C

        • SS4U SS4U

          at what temperature does hydrogen separate from oxygen ?

          perhaps this explains the burners visable on the cams

          notice there are more burners. that means more hydrogen

          the corium is in the water and they know it. everyone else just need to connect the dots.

          this explains the very high radiation levels, steam and need to burn off the H

          just my 2 cents

  • unincredulous unincredulous

    Shhh … be vewy, vewy qwiet … I'm hunting coriums.

    Why do "Humans" have to do it? Why can't we have the inhumans do it?
    Why not the starfish, the moose, the tuna, the sardines and the seals do it? I mean they are "stakeholders" too!

    After all they started it … or was it those fake humans we call corporations, which act like they have no soul … was no one watching when their hearts turned to goo?

  • Sol Man

    All of their control is an illusion, otherwise the world would not be in this horrible predicament. The thought of control is a pr tool; soothing and acceptable, but in reality non-existent.

    We are like monkeys locked in a room full of red launch buttons.

    • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

      Well we might think these controls are an illusion but they are not and the control is evident everywhere around you and its called primarily the rule of many laws…
      Not one mention of Fukushima but one can conveniently go shopping!

      But yes it is now officially confirmed that 17 trillion dollars has be stolen right in broad daylight too!

      What do we have to show for this rapidly increasing 17 trillion dollar investment?


      • Sol Man

        The next time it will be multiple quadrillions. Property rights are usurped and the asymmetric purchase contracts favor only the lender (banks.) They created the deal. Why would they change it?

  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    Raising the upper limit of 'acceptable' exposure rates..will allow TEPCO to send the workers to work…unto their deaths.
    Raising the acceptable level is not going to change the effects radiation has on the human body.

    They are just so bold…as to just announce it.
    Look for the corium ..how so?
    Pick and shovel?

  • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

    I am sure they have the technology to find these hot blobs of mass crawling around under the surface and they will not be using any pick and shovel. This is all about keeping current dire information away/from the public under top secret protocols..

    Many placed by design "Corral Boards" must not be disturbed..delay/confusion is/shall always be the norm.

    • Sure Obe. As stated above the article featured is a propaganda piece.
      Michio Ishikawa is a nuclear apologist. While the article states he is President of the Association for Nuclear Decommissioning Study, it does not say he is chief advisor and former President and CEO of JANTI, or Japan nuclear technology institute, which promotes nuclear energy. For those interested, a couple of articles Ishikawa wrote to show where he's coming from. More evidence of propaganda in the press. Heres a real gem from Ishikawa. "An environment with strong radiation is a nuisance for the general public, but could be a valuable field for researchers.How about setting up a special radiation zone on land and at sea, and providing it for radiation studies?" http://www.gengikyo.jp/english/shokai/Tohoku_Jishin/article_20110928.html


    • KDM KDM

      Thermal imagery x ray, you would be amazed at what a cheap $1500.00 hand held unit will do. I sure it's like an old wind up camera compared to the equipment the government/military possess.

  • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

    .. 🙂

  • Or-well, you bring up the economic side to the equation. Wake up people the only free enterprise we have is the black market of illegal drugs and cash under the table services. They bailed out the banks GM and subsidize the nuke industry in USA and other countries.
    But just you try to sell beer on the beach or in your basement and see how long that free enterprise will last.
    The choice is to spend trillions or allow the ocean to be radiated.
    We have Japan Times giving voice to Michio Ishikawa who's the type to say "An environment with strong radiation is a nuisance for the general public". No doubt they have no intention of fixing this.
    Same old same old as industry time and again uses our world as a toilet for their economic gain. Nothing new here.

    • or-well

      I do Mark, because that's the game they're playing.
      And because it is, I guarantee TREMENDOUS pressure for restarts.
      I think restarts WILL happen, but that's just my opinion.
      Tepco gets to keep destroyed reactors on the books as assets. WTF?
      The idea of a "good" and "bad", or solvent and insolvent Tepco is growing.
      As I pointed out once, Fuku is only about 20% of Tepco's total electrical output. So there are assets.
      No one should expect anything but the most minimal compensation they can get away with.
      I really think the decontamination work will be "scaled back" after a time, but the Fuku ghost towns will remain just that.
      It's the rest of the contaminated areas that will be "gamed".

      • "The United States has expressed their concern over Japan’s no-nukes policy. U.S. Deputy Secretary of Energy Daniel Poneman met with the ruling DPJ policy chief Seiji Maehara on Tuesday. Poneman said if Japan takes steps to achieve such a target, it could have unexpected effects on the United States and other parties concerned."

        This is from a pro nuke website that also outlines economic arguments for running nukes in Japan. Japan was on a nuke free path until the recent election of pro-nuke PM Obe. We are all sucked in to thinking the economy is more important then free and clean water, air and fish from the sea. Warning this is a pro nuke site but has a good overview of economic issues surrounding the nuclear paradym.


        They will ruin the Pacific ocean and the food supply it gives us for the preservation of an economic system that never served us well in the first place. Your so right or-well. This is what everyone needs to realise is that TepJgov are not inept. They are very good at what they do and that is making money for themselves while bullshitting the public. USA is complicit.

  • mairs mairs

    New headline: "Rumored Nazi Tunnels In Norway To Be Explored Using 3D Radar"

    You can find out where the effing coriums ARE, TEPCO, you effing criminal psychopaths. Tell us WHERE THEY ARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • soern

      3d earth radar reaches about 30 to 50 meters down into ground,
      not kilometers. see above 🙂

      • mairs mairs

        So you think they are kilometers below ground?

        • soern

          yes indeed.
          Kilometers down and hot as the surface of sun.
          3 white glowing drops as big as a house, surrounded by some sort of a vapor bubble sinking down with a weight of 100 tons each.
          They don't stop fissionig.
          Tubes could have a diameter of 10m.
          Difficult to say when exactly corii meet magma.
          I guess maybe much earlier than predicted.
          Japan will notice it and we too 🙂
          Maybe i'm wrong, but i don't believe i'm wrong.
          We will see.
          Also a new vulcano "Mt. Daiichi" would perfectly cover
          that mess completely.
          If there occur no unexpectet nuclear explosions deep in earth
          nor while corii with magma coming up to surface, everything
          should be fixed and paermanently covered then.
          Workers on site can't escape and they will be sacrificed -sorry- but it will be a small relief for the rest of our world, i guess.
          There are many other dire issues waiting and to expect in future.

          • Only problem is that the 2,000 tanks will release all of their radiation, and so will all of the other reactors and spent fuel pools as they melt down also into the liquid lava..

            Not a survivable event for life on Earth.

          • Physics of reality does not have these corium lavas still hot enough to actively melt what they are in contact with. Thus they are in the basements or just below. May still be technically molten – like the largest flow at Chernobyl, that made it through the piping to the lowest level and then 3 meters into the granite bedrock before cooling enough to stop – but it's not on the move.

            The issue is that the groundwater is picking up gross contamination from the surface of the coriums and taking it to the ocean. Both inside the lagoon and beyond the seawall. This needs to be stopped, but it's unlikely TEPCO/Japan have any plans to do so.

            • soern

              "Physics of reality" means what?
              What Arnie says?
              Corii are fissioning since day one.
              Reality means, we will see.
              What Arnie says – lol

              • Sorry, soern. Reactor cores (or fuel assemblies in spent fuel pools) don't fission into molten lava when there's no water. They melt down via decay heat.

                Yes, uranium and plutonium fuel isotopes decay by fission a certain percentage of events, but that is not a chain reaction either controlled or explosive (like a bomb). It is spontaneous, just like the myriad of other decay events that caused the fuel to melt and serve to keep it molten. A corium mass that encounters water will have 'flash' fission reactions on the presented surface, but it lasts mere fractions of a second and involves only the fissile fuel isotopes that are at that moment on the surface of the mass and in contact with the water. 5% or less of the uranium and plutonium isotopes in the entire tonnage of reactor fuel are fissile.

                You can find this information for yourself if you don't believe me as some anonymous pseud on the internet. I'd encourage you to do just that. The laws of physics are not suspended or abrogated on human command, no matter what anyone wishes them to be.

  • pkjn

    Rainwater Flows over Tank Barriers at Fukushima Plant
    Tokyo, Oct. 20 (Jiji Press)–
    Tokyo Electric said Sunday rainwater flowed over the barriers around storage tanks containing radioactive water in a total of 11 tank areas of Fukushima plant the same day.
    Simultaneous overflows had not previously taken place at so many tank areas at Fukushima plant.
    In the past, at least eight of the 11 tank areas, radioactive materials in excess of the provisional limits set by Tokyo Electric have been detected in water inside the tank-surrounding barriers.

  • blessings2all blessings2all

    Many methods have been developed to massively accelerate the conversion or transmutation of radioactive materials to more atomically stable elements. I read over the suggestions here and not one I have seen suggests the most obvious and only possible solution. It appears that real and fundamental permanent solutions have been deliberately suppressed. When they have been presented they are not only denied but in many cases violently denied. A big reason appears to be is that The Powers That Be in the whole field do not want their mega-billion $ troth to end. The other is that it flies in the face of standard junk science thrown in the faces of the public. "Nuclear decay is only stochastic or probabilistic, never deterministic." Different versions of conventional transmutation are known and discussed in the literature: by photons, by neutrons, by charged particles and by scalar fields. Of many solutions, to start: "Brown's Gas" — Proven to reduce nuclear radiation up to 96% within minutes : http://pacenet.homestead.com/Nucwaste.html – Planetary Association for Clean Energy – Commercial availability of the technology here now.

    I would suggest that some contributors here start a new thread or forum site where these solutions can be strategically and powerfully introduced into the mix. If this can be demonstrated at Fukushima then they can be demonstrated wherever nuclear byproducts exist. Those who complain there is nothing to be done, here is a practical approach.

    • Wikipedia says claims Browns gas eliminates radiation are fraudulent.

      But there are things Japan can do but they cost money. Japan won't spend the money and it appears Obummer and the rest are ok with that.

      • We Not They Finally

        Mark, apparently you are stuck with "Obummer" (and you're not even American — you're Canadian?) And us, we voted for the guy and are GRAVELY disappointed. But he's just a puppet and the problems are much greater than that. And Americans — there is still SO MUCH racism here — that they'll say demeaning things about Obama for that reason alone.

        So possibly you can consider "cooling that." Like I tell people, cool the stuff about "sheeple." It sort of demeans everyone. Like if you're calling the adults "sheeple," then what are your calling their kids who live with them and have no control over the adults?

        • Its a political point of view. What happens in USA effects us up in Canada. I don't believe I use the word sheeple although it is also a good adjective for describing a point of view. I am also not a great fan of right wing science muzzling Canadian PM Stephan Harper and prefer to call him Harpo. Since Canadian politics is not that popular a topic here (which is fine by me) you wouldn't know that. There is plenty of deserving disrespect to go all around. As far as Obummer being black that is of little consequence to me. But just because he's black doesn't mean he's any better or different then all the other ugly white men who have mislead us. I prefer to make my point of view known in other ways besides capitalizing whole words. Everyone is entitled to express themselves how they see fit.

    • We Not They Finally

      The link you gave looks very interesting. But there are a lot of technical words to get through. It seems to be based in a process of "transmutation" — like maybe you bombard a dangerous radionuclide with neutrons or protons and it changes it into a less deadly element?

      Something like that was apparently developed by a Dr. Radha Roy a few decades back. Can't google any patents, but maybe his ideas were just stolen?

      If you could break this down into "clear English," that would be much appreciated! Maybe there are methods that could at least be successfully applied to existing nuclear waste. That would be a service. Though as for the stuff already massively being let loose…..?

      Then all the NPP's need to just be SHUT DOWN.

  • razzz razzz

    At the bottom on page 3 of this TEPCO .pdf dated July 2012, the plan is to remove the lids and place a special melted fuel removing machine over the reactors. To do that, the 'leaks' have to be sealed so the containments can be filled with water, before the lids come off, to shield during radioactive debris removal. Right now the containments can't hold water.

    • We Not They Finally

      "a special melted fuel removing machine"? And who does THAT get installed by? The Wizard of Oz?

    • SS4U SS4U

      quote: the plan is to remove the lids and place a special melted fuel removing machine over the reactors…"

      Sure, just as soon as someone invents one!

      • razzz razzz

        The 'plan' also calls for a special container to place the melted pieces in underwater for removal. If it was made to hold a 100lbs, with about 100 tons of melt needed to be removed from one blown reactor then they only need 2,000 containers, X3 melted reactors. Where do you store 6,000 containers of highly radioactive debris? Hanford?

    • Filling the containments with water was considered early on in the disaster. It was determined that even if they were holding pressure (and none of them are), the water would make them far too unstable on shaky ground. Besides, the coriums are not likely to still be in the drywells – they'd have melted through many months ago (during 2011).

      They had been injecting nitrogen to prevent more hydrogen explosions back out of the blow holes, but stopped that a couple of weeks ago. They're in water, hydrogen from radiolysis is no longer dangerously significant.

      This "corium removal machine" thing is hilarious. Moreover, it doesn't exist. And if it could be made to exist, the corium isn't in those reactors or in those drywells. There is no point trying to dig it out, it's well shielded by the earth if they can stop the groundwater from washing contamination out to sea.

  • We Not They Finally

    So the President of the decommissioning study acknowledges that virtually nothing has been done, and that they haven't a clue there the melted-through fuel even IS, and yet "the prime minister is right for saying that things are under control"?

    And how many people have to drop dead right in front of THIS man's face to revise that?? These people want to "save face"? Let them paint the faces of ghouls with skull and crossbones all over their own sorry faces and parade in the public square. It's the only "face" they have left.

    • WNTF, As I pointed out above, Michio Ishikawa is also chief advisor and past President and CEO of Janti, a pro nuclear group. So what do you expect? And PM Abe is right in saying things are under control as no large money is being spent to fix bleeding radiation into the sea, Olympic bid won, Japanese people still fixated on the economy, happy with "Abenomics" even though nothing much has trickled down, Fukuvictims still not paid fairly, public buying into decontamination efforts and no international pressure to do anything and finally besides the few who read this site, the general population of the world is unaware that their health is being compromised to turn a profit so yeah, from a pro business, pro nuclear point of view things are very much under control. Name calling won't help.

  • timex

    All the books of all librarys of the world full of wisdoms and philosophy…..and we end up in this situation…wtf ??

    Where are the philosphers and teachers leading the decision makers of our time to make the right decisions, i am sure that in ancient Greek, the leaders did listen also the wise man….now in our time the leaders operate solo without any wise man counceling them….

    So ,we have a world that operate only by the prinsible of elected fools, and when the voters are in the dark they can vote what ever idiot to the job that think they can make them more rich….

    This is also a system crysis….the system dont work ,democracy as it seem to is ,wont work….we need a system that secure the situation by getting leaders that are capable for the job, and especially for hard time like now with Fukushima.

    This model of how it is now,is fucking dead! we need intelligent people to be the leaders, and not just people who think only the benefit of corporations…

    Noy saying we should turn to communist, what i am saying is we need a system that secure the the proses where we can get real leaders for he jobs to secucure the world…and thats`a us…

    • Timex, I once had a Professor of Philosophy within my circle of friends and I asked him once to tell me what practicle use philosophy could have. His answer? It gives me a job. None of the world leaders have ever had anything besides power on their minds. Englands old growth forest was cut down centuries ago. North Americas is almost gone and the South American jungle is being burned up as we speak. The Thames was rotten with sewage before the industrial revolution and on and on. Mankind hasn't changed much at all. Is a no brainer to not spend trillions of dollars to fix fukushima for those with the money. Rome fell and so will this present nuclear fuelled economy and mankind will crawl back into the wilderness a bit more mutated and not any wiser.

      • timex

        I see, so we are doomed…

        We seem to now live the end times, the Bible and other prophesys predicted shit is gonna hit the fan….i think our generations has the privilege feel it…in the bones,with radioactive stontium…

        If i were God, i would just remove all humans out , becouse humans are killing all there is, and itself also…

        This is one big mission failed operation, earth is soon FUBAR

        • Oh no not doomed. During the height of the plague, people thought it was the end times. Anybody growing up in the fifties or sixties worried about a nuclear holocaust. Nobody worries about that today although no one dis-armed. Now its global warming, although pro nukes use that as a reason to build more npp's. Life will go on just not with you and me because everybody is mortal. We are all glorious setting suns.

        • Anthony Anthony

          If I was God I would give humans a second chance after allowing their mistakes to change their life direction OR after my intervention. There are countless wonderful examples of human beings who did NOT set out to exploit and destroy Gaia.

          99 to 1 – good to bad.

        • Yes another aspect of the same problem. Just as you said before somewhere else, nuclear is just one aspect of a bigger problem

    • soern

      "democracy as it seem to is ,wont work"
      well, democracy never worked properly.
      The old Greek's society, which claimed to have invented democracy, were based on slavery.
      Todays democraties have not much to do with ancient direct forms
      of democracy, as today PR is more important than wisdom.
      Further worldwide we have a human population which avoids thinking, reading, education… totally to 99%. So what?
      Nothing to expect at all.
      Todays very most important thing is to go shopping in order to impress the neighbour. Or worse.
      Somewhere above – no it was a comment in that racing boatmans article i read today: God must be pissed off by mankind especially now and since day one. Agreed totally, ME TOO!

      • Well if you read your history. That is if you can believe as many scholars do that the Book of Genesis is a historical narrative handed down through word of mouth long before writing and paper and Christianity. Every religion and civilization has a flood story. The Genesis version, denotes God in the plural, therefore we might well be talking about space aliens and a bar bet. The ancient Greeks thought there were many Gods and earth and humans were made by the Gods to entertain the Gods. God already attempted to destroy us as he already got pissed at us if you remember the story. Nevertheless since God expressed remorse for causing the flood and promised not to do it again I guess he/she/they will just have to let us do it to ourselves. Serves them right for creating us in Their image I guess.

      • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar anne

        However democracy works, every other system works even worse.

        • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

          All the current systems in play throughout the world are spending massive amounts of money they do not have, all while enslaving their own populations as future debt slaves through the repeated use of government enforcement and played on daily fear tactics…

        • I think a benevolent King would work better then a democracy that creates a compromised decision. However we as in Canada/USA/Western Europe have the illusion of a democracy. Politicians make promises to the people then placate the elitist rich big business types. What we have is a Plutocracy.

          • eatliesndie eatliesndie

            I think you are so right….Democracy is a clear failure, yet the benevolent king/queen seems like…its a long way off.

            • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar anne

              "Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

              The present Queen of England hasn't helped us with the BP destruction of the Gulf of Mexico. She is terribly pro-Nuke. Monarchs don't get the title because of ability, only by birth. And inter marriage produces genetic problems.

              Look at the Duke of Windsor who was pro Hitler. Good thing he abdicated the throne. Why is it that one person from Australia and one from Canada, part of the British Commonwealth, like the idea of a benevolent king? Why do you think there have been so many revolutions against monarchs? What do you think Gandhi was all about? Etc. You need to point to an example in history, not just pie in the sky.

              • Anne, The present Queen of England is not a benevolent Queen.

                benevolent |bəˈnevələnt|
                well meaning and kindly : a benevolent smile.
                • (of an organization) serving a charitable rather than a profit-making purpose : a benevolent fund.

                I do not have to give a historic example as we are having a theoretical discussion as to what would make the best government. I posit the theory that a benevolent King/Queen would make the best government as he/she would make decisions that would be well meaning and kindly and those decisions would not be compromised or watered down due to political efficacy. Of course how you would end up with a benevolent leader, historically, would be just plain dumb luck. However I would certainly take a benevolent King/Queen/Dictator over a plutocracy pretending to be a democracy.

  • Ontological Ontological

    The drone shuttle, and its "secret" mission told us where the corium is. If that craft indeed does have deep radar sounding tech, that can find deep Uranium deposits like the big one under Milton Vermont, and can locate deep underground oil deposits, the corium location must be easy for that beasty…

    • soern

      deep enough – really?
      Welcome 🙂

    • hbjon hbjon

      Maybe there is too much interference from the surface mess to see past it into the ground. They're going to see spectra or heat signature, but if it's deep it could be out of range.

      • All fission releases xenon, iodine, neutrons and gamma rays.

        Those can all be measured and analyzed.

        Neutrons go through everything..miles of rock like it was nothing.

        Neutron detectors are being used to detect when a plant is live or not from space..

        They can detect these blobs… They just do not want to talk about it. It is BAD news.

  • blessings2all blessings2all

    Mark, Wikipedia in the article on Browns Gas made one short opinion comment referencing to an article with a short comment from someone who really did not understand…One positive experiment of many: 1991, China's Baotou Nuclear Institute released a Report #202 , "The Results of Experiments to Dispose of Radiation Materials by Brown's Gas", which establishes that experimentation on Cobalt 60 radiation source decreased radiation by about 50% or half-life of radiation — but sometimes more radiation is decreased which needs investigation of possibilities for decreasing more of the radiation in single treatments of exposure to Brown's Gas flame, lasting only a few minutes, in the samples as described in the table below.

    First Experiment Second Experiment
    Source Intensity 580 millirads/hour 115 – 120 millirads/hour
    After Treatment 220 – 240 millirads/hour 42 millirads/hour

    "In another test conducted by Yull Brown before a public audience including U.S. Congressman Hon. Berkeley Bedell with a committee responsible in this area of concern, the experiment ran as follows as reported by the press: "Using a slice of radioactive Americium … Brown melted it together on a brick with small chunks of steel and Aluminum … After a couple of minutes under the flame, the molten metals sent up an instant flash in what Brown says is the reaction that destroys the radioactivity. 99% readioactive…

    • blessings2all, first you should have replied in the original string above as to not disrupt the conversation which should be around the news article posted by Administration. But obviously you are new here so please take this as a friendly heads up to general practices.

      Secondly I am no rocket scientist but a process that basically uses electricity to split the hydrogen and oxygen contained in water to create a flammable gas, that gas, Browns gas is not going to neutralize the huge radiation that the melted cores are producing. We are talking tens and hundreds of Seiverts worth of radiation which off the top of my head is like billions of atoms disintegrating every second and any man would be dead who walked there and any robot would be rendered useless. Also I remember vaguely over a year ago (two?) someone mentioning Browns gas and it was determined here on enenews that it wouldnt work. Worth a try? Maybe. But there are other things they could do and one thing would be to divert the groundwater high up the mountain somewhere to limit radiated water bleeding into the ocean. A no brainer as I thought about it before I read that Arnie Gunderson, former nuclear power plant operator among other credentials suggested it. But that in of itself would be more money then what they want to spend. So even if your Browns gas was the saving grace they wont do it as they won't spend any money on this as it is a multi-trillion US$ project.

  • Sol Man

    Are we inextricably placed a path to our demise given to us through wars, poisoned food/water/drugs/air/land set by the tptb-purchased leaders/royalty/illuminati as it is with no way out?
    I lament that all qualities good are but a memory.
    How are we to enjoy our loved ones and time?

  • PhilipUpNorth PhilipUpNorth

    Fukushima Decommission Plan:
    1. Locate Missing Melted Fuel: It is of vital importance to map the corium lava tubes, and to confirm the whereabouts of the missing 218 tons of nuclear fuel, don't you think? Use modern drilling techniques to locate and follow Corium Lava Tubes1,2,&3 down to the missing corium. Accomplish this task in 2014.
    2. Stop Groundwater Contamination: An Extended Impermeable Wall and/or the Frozen Wall needs to be built to isolate the Fukushima Ruins, surrounding all four reactor buildings with underground walls to stop the flow of groundwater through the Ruins. Accomplish this task by the end of 2014.
    3. End Ocean Contamination: The mouth of the harbor must be sealed with a permanent gate. Accomplish this task in 2014.
    4. End Atmospheric Contamination: Locate melted fuel in the reactor ruins, neutralized with boron and grout to stop the smoke and steam rising from the ruins and from the ground around the plant. Accomplish this task by the end of 2019.
    5. Store Spent Fuel: Put the fuel from SFPs1,2,3,&4, and the Common SFP into permanent dry cask storage. Accomplish this task by 2016, after all fuel at the plant has cooled by at least 5 years, and is ready to go ino Dry Cask Storage.
    6. Fill Reactor Buildings1,2,3&4 with grout. Accomplish this task by the end of 2020.
    7. Treat and Dump Stored Water: All remaining contaminated water stored at the plant should be treated and dumped by the end of 2019.

    • PhilipUpNorth PhilipUpNorth

      TEP.gov must abandon the fiction that Corium1-3 are contained in the Containment Vessels. My guess is that not even one of the three corium blobs, when they are located, will be found to be inside Reactor Buildings1-3.

      The ultra-high rads from groundwater at the site indicate that one or more corium is located underground.

      The wispy steam and still water seen in endoscopic videos of Containment2, along with the low level of water, is proof enough that corium is no longer present.

      The international community must insist that Japan locate Corium1-3, and formulate a plan to recover it.
      The international community must insist that Japan build an Extended Impermeable Wall around Reactor1-4, to stop groundwater from coming into contact with melted nuclear fuel in the ground underneath the three melted reactors.

      Where is the damn corium, eh, Abe?

  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    Every day..every day..the pro-nuke shills try to twist things around.
    The response to Pandora's Box..could be labeled as poorly amoung the real activists.
    Yet the guy persists..
    (It's called money)

    "Stone says he felt divided, with the rational half of his brain telling him nuclear energy makes sense, while the emotional half warned him of the dangers of radiation and told him to leave the area immediately."


    How about we just deal with scientific fact?
    When he gets the facts..then he can get emotional..
    Then he can also realize that..no one gives a damn about the way he feels.
    He can join..the real world.

  • Actually, his feelings are telling him the truth, while his head and ego are telling him to keep going with the 'lie'.

    The journey to the heart and opening it, is a sacred and mysterious one. Not everyone makes that journey during a whole lifetime.

    Keeping the heart closed down and in darkness is what allows the nuclear industry, GMO's, DU, and all of the other death and suffering in the world.