Kyodo: Sharp drop in water at Fukushima Reactors No. 1-3 — “Below level regarded as necessary to keep fuel inside cool”

Published: August 30th, 2012 at 9:37 am ET
By

67 comments


(Subscription Only) Title: Fukushima reactors briefly did not get enough coolant water: TEPCO
Source: Kyodo
Date: 21:23 30 August

The operator of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant said Thursday that the amount of water injected into the crippled Nos. 1 to 3 reactors temporarily dropped below the level regarded as necessary to keep the fuel inside cool.

Although the sharp drop in the water volume did not last long enough to push up the temperature of the reactor pressure vessels, Tokyo Electric Power Co. said it will investigate the cause of the incident because water injection is the “most important” system to ensure the stable condition of the reactors.

The utility known as TEPCO noticed that the three reactors were not getting enough water injection at 3 p.m. Thursday. Workers operated valves to increase the water volume and they confirmed at about 4:30 p.m. that it recovered to the necessary level.

[...]

The original report had a different 2nd paragraph:

Title: Fukushima reactors briefly did not get enough coolant water: TEPCO
Source: Kyodo
Date: 19:41 30 August

[...]

Tokyo Electric Power Co. said the drop in the volume of the water did not affect the temperature of the reactor pressure vessels, while adding that the company is investigating the cause of the incident.

[...]

Published: August 30th, 2012 at 9:37 am ET
By

67 comments

Related Posts

  1. Japan TV ‘News Flash’: Officials fear melted reactor fuel is now exposed at Fukushima — Tepco: We don’t know at this point if fuel is uncovered — Large drop in water level — Experts ‘struggling’ to find condition of nuclear cores, nothing is known for all 3 reactors (VIDEO) June 10, 2014
  2. Tepco: “Unknown whether the flow will recover” — No conclusive evidence of why reactors had sudden drop in water injections August 31, 2012
  3. *UPDATE* Mainichi: Reactors No. 1 and 2 have holes up to 50 square CENTImeters, analysis says — Biggest hurdle now is filling with water — “Caused by hydrogen explosions” — Half million pounds of highly radioactive fuel inside reactors 1-3 December 9, 2011
  4. AP: “Hardly any cooling water inside one of the reactors” — Water level only 6% of estimate — Radiation at 10 times fatal dose March 27, 2012
  5. Trouble injecting water into Fukushima Reactors 1-3 — Flow falls despite increasing coolant level — Tepco unable to identify cause, thinks pipes are clogged August 31, 2012

67 comments to Kyodo: Sharp drop in water at Fukushima Reactors No. 1-3 — “Below level regarded as necessary to keep fuel inside cool”

  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    Keep what fuel cool?


    Report comment

    • Sickputer

      The fuel remnants splattered on the walls, floors, and ceilings is probably tons of nuke goop. 2% of the original payload would be enough to present quite a challenge. It makes me wonder if they have drilled watering shafts to the corium locations. Probably not…


      Report comment

      • patb2009

        whatever corium burned it's way down left a shaft behind, the water in the basements leaking out of various pipes is keeping that cool.

        plus artesian water.

        Of course the local aquifer is now heavily contaminated.


        Report comment

  • dosdos dosdos

    http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20120830a2.html

    NISA approves the operation of nuclear plants that sit atop active fault lines.


    Report comment

  • Sickputer

    They "noticed" it because the whole plant was covered with radioactive clouds. I bet the workers strap on their masks tight when Old Man Nuclear Fog comes visiting. Scary stuff to watch…probably terrifying for younger workers.


    Report comment

  • Flapdoodle Flapdoodle

    Every time they use the phrase "injected" water, I picture a fire hose tied to the top of a crane.


    Report comment

  • or-well or-well

    Please, I have a question.
    I may have missed some important news.

    Doesn't Tepco only have models/simulations of where the fuel/corium is at present?

    Is it actually known for any of Reactors 1,2 or 3?

    I've been using the assumption some fuel/corium may remain at the bottom of the reactor vessels, some may have melted out into the lower levels of the containment "bulb", some may even have left the building(s) thru the basement(s).

    I don't know. Do they?

    Sorry for not being up to speed.


    Report comment

    • ENENews

      Hi or-well, this was published last week:

      Japan Nuclear Expert: Melted fuel may have gone through cement floor and into ground under Fukushima reactors — I don’t believe Tepco’s claim for one second — Where in the world is it? (VIDEO)

      http://enenews.com/japan-nuclear-expert-melted-fuel-gone-cement-floor-leaked-ground-fukushima-reactors-dont-believe-tepcos-calculations-one-second-world-video

      "The problem right now is not figuring out what the cause of the explosion [at Unit 3] is, but where in the world is the melted nuclear material that is in the plant right now?

      Unfortunately we have no way of figuring this out…

      We can't go in and look… there's nothing we can do at this point…

      Like I said we have no idea where the melted nuclear core is at this point…

      100 tons [was in reactor]…

      But what Tepco has been telling us is that underneath that steel is a floor of cement and that cement hasn't melted yet.

      But it's not as if Tepco has gone there and seen if this is the case or anything like that. It's based on calculations that they claimed to have worked out that way.

      But I don't believe it for one second.

      There's at least a possibility that it's gone through all of it and leaked into the ground…

      If something like that happens, there's a strong possibility that it leaks into the environment and the ocean is right there.

      I've been advocating since last May that a wall be built underground…"


      Report comment

      • Johnny Blade Johnny Blade

        hello ENE and the group- I rely on common-sense and logic based on my mechanical aptitude rather than personal expertise in matters of nuclear engineering and disaster mitigation techniques. With that said I tend to agree with your take on the issue on all counts for the reasons cited above. The "wall you advocated since last May" seems to inspire a bit of dejavu for me as I seem to recollect that early on in the disaster,but further enough along that they KNEW the extent of all of the other miscalculations TEPCO and Japan's nuclear regulatory agencies made with regard to just about any aspect or area of FUKuD #1 that failed and were supposed to build an underground barrier to stop the corium(s) from further travel but instead elected to scrap any such plans due to "financial constraints"!!(?)~So it seems they decided that since such a vast amount of their foul products already made their way into the Pacific Ocean-why bother spending precious money to attempt to save the sea,the life within and the lives of those who suffer the consequences of their vile industry and the choices THEY made for the rest of the world instead?!!~I truly loathe anyone who would harm others and/or the environment in favor of financial gain and wish they would be the first to be sickened as well as the victim of their own secret Agenda(21?)!! :(


        Report comment

    • Sickputer

      Or-well…best kept secret of the nasty nucleocrats. If they had good news about the coriums it would be front page WSJ. Murdoch doesn't publish really bad news so we can assume the worst circumstances imaginable are happening at Fukushima NPP.

      Coriums, strontium-90, plutonium = Nucleocrat Taboo Words


      Report comment

      • or-well or-well

        OK, Thanks Admin, Sickputer.
        Reviewing that thread, I see the issue is still factually "up in the air" so to speak, acknowledging various scenarios.

        Personally, I think "somebody" knows, or has a very good idea, due to advanced sensing technology.

        But is Tepco – or rather, some at Tepco – completely "in" on it, or being "strongly advised"?

        They are, allegedly, monitoring temperature and pressure, and presumably other stuff like gases and rad emissions. I hope.

        My take-away is we are not better informed today and all I've missed in regard to Tepco corium spotting is PR.

        This latest report is the usual crap because they bundle together the application of water to all three. Well, they are controlling how much water they inject. How much to each? All from one common source?

        Sounds like an external plumbing problem and quite distinct from what remains where of the fuel/corium – except that some water may be cooling some corium somewhere. Or not.

        Sheesh. Is this smoke? "We fixed that valve – all's good!"


        Report comment

  • many moons

    I wonder how much water will be needed for how many years to fend off more disaster….that would be an number to put in the arsenal of why Nukes shouldn't exist!


    Report comment

    • Sickputer

      Even if the number of gallons for feed cooling water at Fukushima NPP is equal to the Arctic Ocean, the IAEA would still tell everyone: "the Pacific is vast and will dilute the radiation".

      They are good at promoting the healing and absorptive powers of Mother Earth. But when the nucleocrats rape and bleed Mother Earth a gazillion times… She too will die.


      Report comment

      • +1

        Dilute means spread and accumulate as long as the spewing and gushing continues.

        Unabated radioactive contamination will release for decades, at best, and that really is a 'low ball' guess/estimate. :(


        Report comment

      • Max1 Max1

        Sp,
        Still waiting for the nuclear lobby to explain how one goes about diluting "A" radioactive particle.


        Report comment

        • aigeezer aigeezer

          Max1, that's when they switch themes to "dispersion" rather than "dilution", eventually leading up to the banana argument.


          Report comment

          • papacares papacares

            absolute genius aigeezer – the theme has always been "the solution to pollution is dilution" – now you warn us of a game change to "dispersion" – is the banana argument? "build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything"


            Report comment

            • aigeezer aigeezer

              Hehe, papacares. I guess for Max1's question about single particles (no further dilution possible) the banana argument morphs into "eat up, it's only one hot particle at a time. The last one didn't hurt you so this one won't either". Banana roulette.

              We're all bananas now – it's universal "normal background level" once it dilutes and disperses evenly. ;-)


              Report comment

              • papacares papacares

                sorry to be so slow aigeezer – got it now – that was one small diluting "A" radioactive particle for Japan turning into one big hot banana for mankind – like the insane Dr who was reported telling patients go home stop whining everyone know radiation good – how long b4 all this good do us in


                Report comment

                • or-well or-well

                  Large oceans disperse and dilute -
                  there's no way we can ever pollute!
                  All those ocean swells
                  hide becquerels -
                  so Nukes' horn we'll continue to toot!

                  Away with our spoils we will scoot -
                  making off with genomic loot!
                  Ignore tolling bells
                  and mutational hell -
                  it's raw Power we stand and salute!

                  We'll ignore what is known to be Truth -
                  that nuke power's a life-ending goof!
                  We'll rush pell mell
                  under Nuclears' spell -
                  until our whole species goes Poof!

                  Thanks to all for inspiration.
                  Apologies to limerick purists.


                  Report comment

                  • aigeezer aigeezer

                    or-well, you said once you don't do limericks. I remember thinking at the time – too bad, the nuke situation is perfect for limericks (laughin' just to keep from cryin'). Bring 'em on.


                    Report comment

                    • or-well or-well

                      Thanks aigeezer.
                      I read The Limerick Kings' fine work at Zero Hedge and get intimidated!

                      Speaking of ZH – williamBanzai7 is an amazing visual satirist. I wish anti-nuke had a counterpart to him.

                      You know limericks are rather a precise form and little "o" or-well is a free spirit, hard to control at times…!


                      Report comment

      • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

        Dilition solution..
        Groundwater frustrates Fukushima cleanup
        Sept.22 2011.

        TEPCO says between 200 and 500 tons of groundwater is seeping into buildings and other structures on the site every day.

        TEPCO is trying to manage a delicate balancing act between the groundwater levels outside the plant buildings and the amount of water in the buildings' basements. The groundwater flow increases if the groundwater level is significantly higher than the water inside, but allowing the internal water level to rise to that of the groundwater increases the risk of radioactive water flowing out during heavy rains.

        Groundwater flowing in and out of the plant.
        No water the coriums heat up..too much water..radioactive flows out.
        http://ajw.asahi.com/article/0311disaster/fukushima/AJ2011092211606


        Report comment

        • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

          PS.Typo ..dilution solution.
          I,for one,have seen endless emissions coming from outside the reactor building.
          I have seen them between the reactors and along the shore line.
          The exposions were too large, damage too great..for the TEPCO lie of "cold shutdown" to be believed.


          Report comment

    • GlowInTheDark GlowInTheDark

      I wonder how much radioactive water will continue to be dumped for how many years… or if they will ever stop dumping :O


      Report comment

  • jahdesm jahdesm

    same question heart of rose what are they cooling exsept no.4 sfp


    Report comment

  • Atomfritz Atomfritz

    I really hope they stop with that nonsense "cooling" soon.

    The corium probably is in the core catcher and has cooled down sufficiently to remain there uncooled.

    Actually this "cooling" is a way to get rid of the "purified" water full of strontium by seeping it into groundwater via the building's basement cracks.


    Report comment

    • hbjon hbjon

      Your one of the few that believe the core catcher can function properly without coolant or power. There has only been one picture of a reactor containment vessel that I have seen and that was in unit 4. The machines simply blowup when they get too hot.


      Report comment

    • Sickputer

      I hope you are right that they slowed the coriums with enough water (continuous injections for nearly 18 months) so they are still in the core catcher, but I doubt the corium is cool enough to negate water cooling.

      Without cooling the coriums will remelt. Much higher temperature than the one at which concrete becomes softer. And we know despite the extra layers (30 feet?) concrete decomposes at a much lower temperature than steel.

      It will be interesting to read all the 311 false flag theories and the coriums should provide more fodder than the jet fuel/thermite theories about 911 (which I don't view as plausible, but I keep an open mind).

      Everyone is entitled to have a go at the cause of a crisis and the process. I am more concerned with the end product. To me it looks like the 311 end product will linger and stretch beyond human existence.


      Report comment

      • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

        I just looked at the explosion of unit 3..considering the force of the explosion…unit 1 ..as well..I would suspect some destruction of the core catcher.
        And ..yep..there is the issue of radiation/concrete interaction.(unit 2)

        http://www.scribd.com/doc/45551070/Molten-core-concrete-interactions-in-nuclear-accidents-theory-and-design-of-an-experimental-facility


        Report comment

        • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

          Speaking of core catchers..
          "For example, the enhanced safety of the Westinghouse Advanced 600 MWe Pressurized Water Reactor (AP600), which relied upon External Reactor Vessel Cooling (ERVC) for in-vessel retention (IVR), resulted in the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission (US NRC) approving the design without requiring certain conventional features common to existing Light Water Reactors (LWRs). Accordingly, IVR of core melt is a key severe accident management strategy adopted by some operating nuclear power plants and proposed for some advanced light water reactors. However, it is not clear that currently-proposed methods to achieve ERVC will provide sufficient heat removal for higher power reactors"

          However.. it may or may not work..
          PS..I think..a power supply is also required.
          Which evidently ..also may or may not happen.

          http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15753155


          Report comment

    • Nigwil

      Within 12 hours of the earthquake a worker stood on top of the Torus at I think Unit 3 and his boots melted. Ive worked on boilers with pipework at 125 degrees C and operating fireboxes at 700 degrees C. When I stood on steam pipes my boots did not melt. When I stood on the floor of the firebox during an emergency shutdown with the floor close to 700C my boot soles melted and I skated around.

      So for the torus to be that hot it had to be in contact with corium, and that is a long way away from your 'Core Catcher'.

      So 12 hours after the earthquake the core was out and about visiting the neighbours. Nothing tidy there.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkgaGOEFXaY


      Report comment

  • richard richard

    i'm thinking that if the water levels have dropped, but "Workers operated valves to increase the water volume" to restore levels, this suggests the water output from the reactors most likely increased, in the first instance.

    it's as if a large underground 'plug' has been released, possibly from the last couple of tremors.

    in other words, the situation has possibly 'escalated'.


    Report comment

    • or-well or-well

      richard, interesting possibility you raise. I will add another – some corium has melted a new path to…somewhere.


      Report comment

    • AFTERSHOCK AFTERSHOCK

      @richard: I was waiting to see if someone could put two-and-two together in answer to this 'anomaly'. Guess you win today's enenews prize-of-the-day!

      As to the 'severity' of this latest revelation? Even if they've got it under so-called 'control', your (well placed) intuition warns that these ongoing 'tremors' will ultimately result in the complete loss of cooling to one-or-more plants. And, I hate to say it, there's nothing that can be done to prevent this.

      Before I go back on the side, I just want to thank you richard, for the excellent catch. BTW. Wanna swap a huggy-bear for that cuddly giraffe?


      Report comment

      • weeman

        Why have they not installed remote controlled water jets around plant in case they lose cooling or complete control, they are right by the sea,
        as it is are they even putting water into the pressure vessel or are they just pouring over pressure vessel? And slowly the water makes its way through buildings, even if the pressure vessel is being filled with water it is leaking like a sieve.
        Cold shutdown my arse, if we are lucky if their is a crust on the elephants foot that is cool but the center is molten.
        Trying to make sense but out of my intellectual reach and everybody on earth.
        You all come back in a couple of billion years and everything will be all right, peace .


        Report comment

        • AFTERSHOCK AFTERSHOCK

          it's likely, weeman, they're using existing 'plumbing' to bring water into critical areas. Running water over a mish-mash of collapsed structure is unlikely to have any productive effect.

          During first days, the initial response would've included integrity tests on cooling lines. Once they determined what was still functional, they tied-into these lines to boost what remained of the water pressure. That's when we started hearing of the coolant 'leaks' and the frenzied attempts to stop them.

          So, even if the cores had the opportunity to leave containment (which by all accounts has happened), the functional water lines which feed the cores' cooling systems (both primary and secondary) are now being taken advantage of to hide the truth. They're pumping-in millions-of-gallons of water, each day, and pouring it onto what they refuse to admit has happened. Throughout this entire process, that water ends-up carrying a vast array of deadly isotopes into the open sea. They initially tried to 'recycle' that water, then gave up after it was discovered (in the first few days) to be highly radioactive and deleterious to both equipment and onsite personnel.

          Again, simply raining water down on the individual plant reactors will likely have no effect…


          Report comment

      • richard richard

        Thanks for the fluffy toy award AFTERSHOCK.

        Maybe enenews can do some kind of awards night, call it the "Fluffies".

        And thanks or-well, the corii could be contributing as much as tremors. It is speculation though.

        But a word that comes to mind is 'sinkhole' :(


        Report comment

  • philipupnorth

    Reposted from the thread linked above by Admin. Perhaps relevant to this discussion:
    "Why have most 'Newsers concluded that the Coriums are ex-Building?
    1. Steam rising from fisures in ground between Units1,2,&3.
    2. TEP.gov plan to intercept groundwater by drilling a series of wells uphill, diverting groundwater into the Pacific after testing.
    3. TEP.gov plan to build steel cofferdam between Fuku and Pacific to keep groundwater which has flowed around corium from reaching the Ocean."
    http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushima-np/roadmap/images/m120528-e.pdf

    TEP.gov has done nothing to cool or moderate coriums except to allow groundwater to continue to flow past the coriums and on into the Pacific Ocean. Apparently Japan believes the contamination of the Pacific Ocean without efforts to stop this tragedy is acceptable. Let me assure the Japanese people that many of us find your inaction to deal with Coriums1,2,&3 to be totally unacceptable.
    No atomic plant should operate anywhere on the planet until technologies have been developed to deal with corium melt through.


    Report comment

    • weeman

      I see the line up of people at the unemployment line applying for jobs at the plant now for the construction of these coffer dams and other major construction projects around plant.
      Who is going to expose themselves, pick me pick me, we need to expose thousands of people for many years.
      You tell me, I know but you won't like it.
      Time to get real, the sacrifice of few to save many, your pick.
      Harsh is it not.


      Report comment

      • Sickputer

        Have we seen any photos of the pilings and cofferdam sheets? They announced the plan in October 2011, and said they would begin in April 2012.

        C'mon Tepkill…show us proof. (Deafening silence cascades across Tepkill headquarters). Oops… Caught you weasels lying again?


        Report comment

        • philipupnorth

          The Timeline TEPCO released with the Cofferdam and Well Plan called for cofferdam construction to begin in August, 2012. So, technically they are just a bit behind. I am becoming increasingly alarmed by the inactivity of TEPCO on this project. I have been thinking a bit about the ramifications should TEPCO abandon this plan. This would be very bad news, indeed. Here's why:

          Think of Coriums1,2,&3 located in the bedrock far below Buildings1,2,&3 as three 100 ton ROGUE NUCLEAR REACTORS, for this is what they truly are. These Rogue Nuclear Reactors lack reactor vessels, containment vessels, and secondary containment buildings. Instead, Mother Earth has become a nuclear plant. Nuke reactors must be cooled, lest they begin to produce radiation in vast amounts. In this case, groundwater is flowing from inland valleys under Fuku, cooling the 3 Rogue Nuclear Reactors, then flowing into the Pacific Ocean. I had been thinking that there is nothing that could possibly be worse than the ruination of the entire Pacific Ocean. But what if I have been wrong? What is TEPCO knows that STOPPING the flow of groundwater around Coriums1,2,&3 would cause an outcome far worse than deadly contamination throughout the Pacific Ocean?
          Suppose TEPCO were to build the Cofferdam and Wells. Without the continuous movement of groundwater, the Rogue Reactors will heat up. Groundwater will boil off. Highly radioactive vapors envelope Fuku, increasing the uncontained radioactive outgasing.


          Report comment

  • razzz razzz

    Yous people seem as confused as Arnie about meltdowns. In one of his recent interviews, he wouldn't admit to or confirm a melt through (I take it, for lack of information from TEPCO). Example: Even with particles of radioactivity found in the basement water outside Unit 2's containment (doughnut) he wouldn't claim fuel melted out of the basemat (core catcher) area or even if the primary containment shell imbedded in the basemat concrete was breached. This is implying that coolant was flowing over or around the melted fuel and carrying off radioactive debris through leak points in a normally closed system. Could be since dead robot pics and vids show containment(s) pretty much intact.

    Simple questions would be, how much water is still needed to cool or keep the melted fuel submerged(?), is water that is being used fresh or recirculated, how much water is being lost due to leaking, how contaminated is coolant on return for filtering, do they continue to add higher amounts of water now or was it a one time thing, where did the water go to make the water level(s) go down, any correlation with recent quakes, when adding water to the reactor(s) does it exit like a shower-head through the bottom of a burnt out vessel making the water level lower than any remaining melted fuel in the reactor vessel(s), is all the melted fuel constantly covered with water?

    They don't know and neither do we.

    There is no bedrock, just a hardened sea floor base, a cofferdam would seem…


    Report comment

    • philipupnorth

      'Yous' must be from da UP, eh razzz?


      Report comment

    • Sickputer

      Razzz typed these pixels of light:

      "Yous people seem as confused as Arnie about meltdowns."

      SP: No confused people here boss. ;-) Nor Arnie. I suspect we have a better understanding than most of the Tepkill scientists who have access to their proprietary data. They know how to split atoms, but stopping multiple runaway reactors has been an exercise in futility. And burning high level radioactive debris? What insanity! The only reason our BBB (Big Brother Barack) doesn't chastise them is because we burn nuclear waste also and more importantly…nucleocrats cover up for one another.

      You also ask:
      "Simple questions would be, how much water is still needed to cool or keep the melted fuel submerged(?),

      A lot. Millions of gallons a day if not per hour in times of emergency desperate feeds.

      " is water that is being used fresh or recirculated?"

      Saltwater first ten days (roasted men's testicles with radioactive sulphur); then fresh water for a couple of months, then switched to recirculated water. Probably use backup fresh water when the buildings disappear from radioactive steam.

      TBContinued


      Report comment

      • Sickputer

        Cont.

        " much water is being lost due to leaking?"

        A lot…billions of gallons. The ocean levels can prove by measurements of radiation far away from the plant. It's simple math for a scientist, but don't expect truthful estimates anytime soon.

        "how contaminated is coolant on return for filtering?

        Wow…it is whopping hot and cesium is about all they filter out. Messy, dangerous jobs… Got to be the worst job at the plant except for the Unit 3 and 4 kamikazes.

        "do they continue to add higher amounts of water now or was it a one time thing$

        The feed and bleed is massive and will not stop in most of our lifetimes.

        "where did the water go to make the water level(s) go down?

        Following the normal slope to the ocean. Fissures in the mudstone subsurface is the conduit. Maybe at times straight across the surface of the plant.

        "any correlation with recent quakes?

        We would suspect so based on steam releases after quakes.

        "when adding water to the reactor(s) does it exit like a shower-head through the bottom of a burnt out vessel making the water level lower than any remaining melted fuel in the reactor vessel(s)?

        Incomplete data. The control rod holes are in the bottom so it sounds plausible

        "is all the melted fuel constantly covered with water?"

        Certainly not… There's a hole in their bucket, dear Liza, dear Liza.

        The steam, smoke, fires, and rising hydrogen levels indicate the molten coriums are not adequately cooled.


        Report comment

    • kalidances

      Razzz do you have anything at all to contribute in the way of helping to provide documentation and statistics about Tepco? Do you know how to do research on your own or do you enjoy coming to sites like ENEnews and having nothing to offer?

      Since you obviously know nothing about how Tepco works, here you go:

      http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/news/presen/presen-e.html

      http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Venting_at_Fukushima_Daiichi_3_1303111.html

      Start reading and do not waste everyone's time with negative comments unless you are here to offer useful and helpful information. The second article, dated 3/13/2011, tells you how exactly much water is needed to over the rods. You can do your research from there and bring yourself to Tepco current events.

      You're welcome.


      Report comment

      • razzz razzz

        Sickputer, kalidances and a few others need to temper what they think they know with facts at hand, known facts.

        The little list of questions above are all rhetorical.

        I take heat all the time from posters lacking common sense. Once said that the working theory for Unit 2 will produce the greatest amount of fallout because the melted core didn't explode and can still react with itself, someone wanted a link to that, same day articles post that Unit 2 has the highest radiation output at the site. Another time, I post that the blast doors/walls on the secondary containment (buildings) were welded shut except Unit 2 had one blow off, saving that building, no comments on that one but linked later to articles. I guess no one understands the implications.

        I said bedrock is absent under the site, you want the geologist report? Would you understand it? Do your own homework and prove it to yourself or prove me wrong.

        Any attempted answers to my list of questions were personal conjecture including links to TEPCO site espousing their spin. Many angles to the problems until pertinent information is released and the melted fuel is located. Everything else is just a WAG (Wild Ass Guess).


        Report comment

    • papacares papacares

      @razzz "worthless"

      name change or comment?


      Report comment

      • Sickputer

        nope.. It was the Forum character quota whacked razzz and an out of sequence followup (happens to most of the regulars at times).

        Original sentence: There is no bedrock, just a hardened sea floor base, a cofferdam would seem…[worthless].

        Cheers

        SP


        Report comment

        • Sickputer

          BTW… This is a Forum. If I see something I want comment about I will do so (rhethorical or not). Rules of the turf…I expect no less for my posts. I do not take offense at any criticisms of my posts. Sometimes I correct my own.

          As for "no bedrock" the geological studies found last summer and mentioned numerous times said drilling at Unit 6 found mudstone (aka sandstone or claystone) under the short topsoil and extending to over 140 meters. Some estimates of the Fukushima Daiichi depth of the granite layer common in the region is about 200 meters (I believe one estimated it to start at 800 feet). No firm drilling data to my knowledge to that depth…hard on drill bits and costly. Plus Tepco probably didn't really care to know aboug that depth 45 years ago.

          Regardless, either layers could have fissures, but the cracking of the mudstone is much more likely from pressure and seismic activity.

          All the best,

          SP


          Report comment

          • Sickputer

            One more comment about the bedrock after reading Johnny Blades followup to Admin in another thread.

            I feel the same thing as razzz (what bedrock?) and Johnny's comments about them not feeling up to trying any cofferdam because it won't stop the fissure flows.

            Yes, there's a big money and technological issue building a 100 or 200 foot cofferdam versus one 600 to 800 feet deep (down to the granite). And as I said there are no guarantees the granite would be watertight. Bad news for the whales…bad news for us.

            Some of these same issues are happening at Hanford Site. What to do, how to do it. The only difference is the Hanford Site is not leaking massive atmosphere toxins. But similar problems exist for water contamination at Hanford on a much slower scale. But the fuel waste at Hanford probablh dwarfs Fukushima Daiichi and Daini combined.


            Report comment

  • ForwardAssist ForwardAssist

    One consideration, I watched a video which stated that when elements like pu are dissolved in water it takes somewhere around 1/10 of the amount that it normally takes to cause a criticality. I'll see if I can post it when I arrive home this evening.

    It makes me wonder if the flooded lower containments and basements aren't a very chaotic environment, with all that dissolved fuel suspended in a moderator (water). I can imagine transient criticalities ocurring and then dieing out when water voids form, the heat of the reaction grows too great.


    Report comment

    • Time Is Short Time Is Short

      There are things going on in there that no one in physics has ever seen, nor even contemplated, before. And none of them good for carbon-based lifeforms.


      Report comment

      • Sickputer

        You said a mouthful there TiS.

        Definitely unknown things bubbling at Fukushima. The fact they are still unable to come up with solutions doesn't speak well for all those monsters spread around the globe. They didn't see this coming and they have no answers after the fact. Hanford started it all and they still don't have any containment there. That is one place in America that is probably longterm worse than Fukushima. But they had a big headstart over the Japanese.


        Report comment

  • Sol Man

    Temperatures of decomposing concrete in a corium melt situation (from link above p. 17):
    1200-1500 M.P. of Portland cement
    1423+/-50 M.P. of quartz
    1597 M.P. of hematite into magnatite

    Corium 2800-3000
    Tungsten M.P. 3422
    M.P.- melting point
    All temps in degrees C.

    Why wasn't tungsten used in the design of the reactor vessel?
    Wouldn't this have given the entire world a degree of security that otherwise is non-existent?

    It would have been too expensive to incorporate into design?

    I am certain that nobody, anywhere can put a price on this.
    We have no idea of how to proceed where we have not been before.


    Report comment

  • Sickputer

    Tungsten is 40 times more expensive than stainless steel.

    So yes… They do place money higher than safety.


    Report comment

  • ForwardAssist ForwardAssist

    "Criticality 1969"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1ckdTlgvlU

    This is not the exact video I referenced earlier, but it features much of the same information. Shortly after 16:00 they start talking about radioisotopes dissolved in liquids and criticality.


    Report comment