Lead Researcher: Fukushima pollution may be causing sea star epidemic on West Coast — Sea urchins, sea cucumbers also affected — “Something’s making them susceptible”… “It’s unlike anything we’ve seen”… “Populations go locally extinct overnight”

Published: December 30th, 2013 at 5:12 pm ET


Huffington Post, Dec. 30, 2013: Starfish Wasting Disease Outbreak Could Be Due To Radiation

News 1130 AM Vancouver, Dec. 30, 2013: Researchers say nuclear pollution from the 2011 earthquake in Japan that damaged the Fukushima Nuclear Power Plant could be partially to blame for a disease wiping out starfish along the West Coast.  Dr. Peter Raimondi of the University of Santa Cruz says something is making starfish susceptible to whats believed to be a bacteria […] He says what’s making sea stars unable to fight off the bacteria could be anything from warm water to toxins–but Raimondi also says scientists can’t rule out nuclear pollution, especially in light of the tsunami that followed the 2011 earthquake. It washed large amounts of debris to our shores–and Raimondi says nuclear pollution could have come with that. “One of the byproducts is obviously nuclear radiation discharge.” […]

Pete Raimondi, a marine ecologist at the University of California-Santa Cruz one of the lead researchers tracking the outbreak: “It’s widespread, it’s very virulent and it’s unlike anything we’ve seen in the past […] Suppose someone’s walking down the street and they get stabbed in the arm and develop an infection and die. So the infection killed them, but the real question is this: Who stabbed them in the first place?”

USA Today, Dec. 28, 2013: […] Whatever is causing it can spread with astonishing speed — a healthy group of starfish can die in just 24 hours. […] smaller numbers of sea urchins and sea cucumbers reported falling to it. […] in some areas [sea stars have] been wiped out. […]  There have been previous, small scale sea star die-offs. While they looked similar, [Mike Murray, director of veterinary services at the Monterey Bay Aquarium in Monterey, Calif said,] “there are only certain ways starfish can look when they die. A melting starfish is going to look like a melting starfish.” […] The fact that the ailment is so widespread is what’s most troubling, said Benjamin Miner, a professor of marine biology at Western Washington University in Bellingham, Wash. […] Whatever is killing the sea stars is highly lethal. “We’ve had populations go locally extinct overnight. Literally.” […]

Apparently some disagree with the lead researcher. See: Three Reasons Why Fukushima Radiation Has Nothing to Do with Starfish Wasting Syndrome

The same ‘science’ website recently published a much-criticized report about Fukushima that made claims like, “It’s not even dangerous to swim off the coast of Fukushima” and from eating nuclear waste in fish “you’ll get the same amount of radiation by eating 9 bananas” — Read it here: True facts about Ocean Radiation and the Fukushima Disaster

See also: [intlink id=”colonies-of-starfish-turning-to-mush-disintegrating-into-white-goo-experts-we-cant-exclude-fukushima-radiation-it-hasnt-been-ruled-out-starfish-particularly-proficient-at-absorbing-ra” type=”post”]{{empty}}[/intlink]

Published: December 30th, 2013 at 5:12 pm ET


Related Posts

  1. Report: Study warns Fukushima contamination “is becoming more concentrated as it crosses Pacific Ocean, rather than dispersing” — “It’s making a beeline for U.S. West Coast” — “Scientists causing panic in public” September 4, 2013
  2. NBC News: “Grisly disease decimating starfish populations… from Orange County to Alaska” — Scientists: Alarm as they began eating each other, then melting away — Similar problem on East Coast observed since 2011 — Now spreading at “scary” rate (VIDEO) November 2, 2013
  3. Experts: Seemingly benign virus on West Coast causing “ecological upheaval the likes of which we’ve never seen” — Very peculiar, different from all known viruses — Mutations could be helping it spread — Something may have recently caused it to go rogue… we’ve never seen anything like this — Why now, what changed to allow outbreak? (VIDEO) November 18, 2014
  4. CBS News: ‘Immense mystery’ as sea stars being wiped out along West Coast, could be gone for generations — Bewildering disease is spreading and “no idea what’s causing it, or how to stop it” — Timelapse shows all legs lost in 7 hours (VIDEOS) November 17, 2013
  5. Officials: ‘Spasmodic burst’ near giant sinkhole — Around 100 micro quakes reported overnight March 13, 2013

118 comments to Lead Researcher: Fukushima pollution may be causing sea star epidemic on West Coast — Sea urchins, sea cucumbers also affected — “Something’s making them susceptible”… “It’s unlike anything we’ve seen”… “Populations go locally extinct overnight”

  • lickerface lickerface

    Maybe they can focus on a medium that they (marine scientists) don't normally consider: the air.

    Yep, that water has been continuously tainted for years. I think the marine guys are going to filtered or hushed soon if they aren't already.

    • StPaulScout StPaulScout

      "Whatever is causing it can spread with astonishing speed — a healthy group of starfish can die in just 24 hours."

      Humans better hope no pathogens we experience get 'fast' like that, especially a new influenza strain.

  • hexagon

    Two articles acknowledging radiation today. AG said it's time to walk away yesterday. Something seems to be changing.

    • Bones Bones

      Dr. Peter Raimondi really impressed me by that analogy of dying from infection of a stab wound, but who did the stabbing? Perfect way to describe RAIDS. A weakened immune system from radionuclide ingestion and external radiological related variables from Fuku and it is quite easy to understand. He also is a scientist though, and I know you can't just make claims, but it's a very sound hypothesis and is insane Fukushima is stilled ruled out in what the public gets. Kudos, Dr. Peter Raimondi! Let's hope more and more scientists start telling the public to become aware at least.

      • Socrates

        Bones, the National Cancer Database published a study in 2010 implicating ionizing radiation, IR and UV radiation in immune system problems. High dose operates differently than low dose. Low dosing continuously in top predators and organisms that filter water bioaccumulates radionuclides. This sets off free radicals (ROS), alters mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), changes the immune system.

        In Echinodermata the "arm" rejected as if injured. These creatures have stem cells that usually regenerate damaged arms. A cascading immune failure or auto – immune process can take place. Opportunistic pathogens can infect. The P-53 gene is implicated, as is aging process. ATP metabolism and DNA – the whole nine yards – cancer cells because abnormal cells are not programmed for cell death.

        • Ontological Ontological

          @Socrates Just to insert a note, corexit does the same kind of mitochondrial damage. It got in the rain, and the world wide currents. Mixed with low viscosity oils it can stay "fresh" for long periods of time. Combo with tsunami toxins, and radiation has become very bad for these organisms that perhaps are the "coal mine canary of the oceans". Keep up the good research! Diligence in education can offer many out here a ray of hope in this ever gloomier darkness. Sometimes I feel doing so is only lighting a candle in the wind, but it's light nonetheless.

        • Excellent analysis

          Anyone else getting worried?

          • Socrates

            98% of botton life in the Pacific Ocean 150 miles off the shores of Wedtern United States is "detritis" of dead sea life. There are anecdotal "common" observations of lack of sea life in the oceans.

            Strontium-90 will also be transported. That will come later, specifically after 1000 days, I.e., now, but will continue emissions for 162 years as the coriums burn through the concrete containments in the bottom of the reactors and into the ground watrr below. As you know from enenews, these models from German scientific studies have determined that the reaction with concrete and adjacent water bodies, which most reactors have next to plants, such as lakes, rivers, oceans, etc., produced long-lasting, bone-seeking Strontium-90.

            It is predicted by computer models that an ocean plume will arrive in Canada and California with Cs-137. That will be concentrated until a maximum at ten years only to be replaced by the Strontium-90 and its daughters.

            We have heard from scientists st UC Davis Department of Engineering that pouring salt water on top of the reactors produced buvkyballs that are nano particles that mobilixe readily. The UC Berkeley Department of Engineering had been reported deposition of radionuclides in pine needles, soils, etc.

            Our government is not releasing data. These are models but we see affects on life in die-offs. This worries me but I do not "know."

          • Sickputer

            Re Majia concerns:

            I am feeling more worried for our fate than I did in the first weeks of 311. In those days I hated to even breathe outdoors. Old duck and cover psyche I guess. The wind was no longer a friend.

            As time went on I felt better and wasn't constantly worrying about my family. But these animal extinctions and wildlife phenomena are pushing me back into full-time concern.

            We're the top of the food chain and far more capable about what we do with our body. But when eagles succumb and 97% of Monarch butterflies perish (among dozens of other species in the past 1000 days) there is only one thing I can assume and that is the most highly evolved form of life on this planet is facing the Doomsday machine.

            The Frankenstein humans built it and we suffer for their actions. They crapped us all down the toilet of their making and the final flush is at hand.

            I had hoped my family location 1000 miles east of the Rockies gave an edge for my family against the nuclear plague, but the troposphere laughs at those feeble land bumps. Distance is still a help, but if just delays the inevitable illnesses.

            But enough Doomsday speculation.. Time for my morning big dose of liposomal Vitamin C!

            Cheers and good fortune in 2014 to all Enenewsers…you carry the lamp of human knowledge. Never let it go dark.

            • deaddolphins simonhhh

              Sickputer if you want to do a serious "landbump" you may consider Uruguay on the west coast of South America…it may be not the ultimate solution since the Southern Hemisphere will eventually get whacked…But at-least gives you and yours a bit of lead time…

              Excellent analysis from the usual array of posters here at "enenews"

        • Bones Bones

          Great info Socrates, thank you very much. What I meant was I think some scientists are finally trying to tell the truth. I know they are restrained and know their lives and occupation are at risk and I just thought it was good to see some inkling of truth come out so at least the public starts thinking about Fukushima. That is what I meant. Obviously, he could list all the technical data in the world and people would be just drooling. Most people don't take that information in or they don't have a reference or understanding of what the data means. (Obviously, that is what scientists should be doing.) They have to tell the public in the seriously simplified way (In the beginning of this slow trickle of semi-info.) for the public's sake so they begin to understand and to keep his family, career, and life in tact. My uncle is an astrophysicist so I understand a little why scientists would remain quiet. Not saying I agree, but I understand. Hence, why I think a scientific organization of qualified people from the public collecting data everyday for data to show the world since our established scientific heirarchy is meaningless as it's completely politicized. Thanks for all the info again. I just keep bookmarkin and trawling. For every Snowden there are hundreds of thousands who believe the propaganda or are too scared to go public. It's not much of a different situation. That's more what I meant.

          • Socrates


            I am a generalist with a basic background in several disciplines of social science, psychology, paleontology, anthropology, biology, physics, geology, bacteriology, genetics, law….

            I am more of an advocate than a scientist. But I can see the forest rather than just the trees. I was in the field in paleontology in the early Sixties.

            As soon as the reactors exployed, I becsme attracted to this site and others, and became concerned with the dangers of nuclear energy. This goes back to the 50s in exposures I had ad a child in Nevada, and to the fact that I was a witness to the entire Cold War and above-ground testing. I have bern in remission of melanoma but have had lesions 55 years ago and ten years ago. I worry about our environment, the energy and agricultural policies that are destroying it, and threatening public health.

            Other than the above, no worries…

    • Questionit

      hex, The possible implications has me very concerned. Are they softening us up for a bombshell. News of how bad it already is or how bad it's about to get. That S90 is about to hit the ocean full force from the groundwater?

      Are they doing this to justify huge no bid no scope of work contracts to GE, Haliburton and others. (Arnie G. has made statements to help set the foundation for this imo..)

      If something is up these semi official releases will continue and increase in scope.

      • Socrates


        Top predators bioaccumulate radionuclides. Grazing animals eat grass with deposition of Cs 137. Mussels bioaccumulate radionuclides and echinoderms filer water and accumulate radionuclides. 1000 times background.

        The role of ionizing radiation or ultraviolet light, as well as drugs and metals cause the production of free radicals, including reactive oxygen species. Mitochondrial DNA, the ATP – ATP (adenosine Tri-phosphate; adenosine Di – phosphate system is disrupted. Immune system dysfunction follows given continuous exposure, especially in the presence of metals. PPP – (Piss-Poor Protoplasm).

        Continuous low dose exposure to ionizing radiation in the presence of metals in the water causes pathogenesis – invasion of opportunistic organisms, cancer, autoimmune disorders.

        This is according to a publication in the National Cancer Database in 2010. They already knew this before 2010.

        This bombshell has fallen almost three years ago.

        Radiation at high levels works differently than continuous low level exposures that continue. The living cell cannot take it forever. We are seeing CPM on Surfer's Beach at several times background. Some measurements are ten times background. This is NOT going away.

    • Nothing has changed, except perhaps (and likely) it's getting worse. It may be that people are finally noticing that TEPCO, the Japanese government, and the Yakuza (which is in charge of charging homeless people to work death camp duty at Fukushima) aren't doing anything at all, and have no plans ever to do anything at all. Except to walk away as soon as international pressure cuts off the Yakuza's access to helpless homeless people. That's coming soon, I hope.

      I once said here (or maybe twice, or more) that "all" of it's out and will be on the loose. That's as true today as it ever was, there is no physical way on earth or in heaven for it not to be. No matter how badly individuals want there to be answers and ways to stop what has happened from doing its inevitable dance.

      It could be somewhat mitigated, but few here would applaud or support that – I see way too much fantasy desire for it all to go away as if it never happened, won't take anything else. And that was never possible, from the moment the earthquake happened. We won't fade away as quickly as many other life forms, it takes awhile for radiation to cause human cancers and wasting diseases. And some of us are pretty tough, apparently. Which is why there's an LD50 (that nobody in this country is getting from Fuku) where only half of the exposed actually die, while the other half doesn't. Go figure.

      • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

        JoyB, you knew the truth in/at the very beginning, and yes, it will get much worse worldwide since more of these Nuclear Power Plants now sitting all over the world are slotted to fail/blowup in the very near future. 🙁

        This is now a fact, so prepare for it, and move away and upwind from all of them/locations. 🙂

        WE (humans) are now in the process of exterminating the entire planet. 🙁

        It is only a matter of time now…

        • Alas, Obewan. We've been busily exterminating our support system since the moment we figured out we could collectively herd bison off cliffs and throw away most of the meat. It's a problem with our wiring. Give us big 'philosophical' brains, and we can't see what's obvious and right in front of our faces. It has always been thus, and there's probably no cure.

          Deal is, we really are pretty tough. Apart from those of us who aren't, of course – and that's always a shame. I walked right into TMI 5 days after their meltdown to get the goods, only protection I had was a bunch of kelp capsules taken every meal because there was no available KI in those days, even for nukes (though there was plenty of gub'ment issued amphetamines for strung-out operators who had been battling the beast for days straight).

          That was very nearly 35 years ago. The guys I went there with are also still alive and relatively healthy (for sixty-somethings). One of 'em got so crapped up with iodine during an entry that he was officially 'burned out' and even after decon had to wear a stocking cap on his head for more than a month so he wasn't a rad hazard to others. His thyroid is still fine. Because he was saturated with stable iodine. Now even the kelp is suspect!

          Others were not so lucky, many have died or are dying as we speak. It really is a crap shoot. But honestly, unless all humans are rendered sterile or die before reaching reproductive age, we'll go on. Until there's…

          • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

            Gee, nice story and/but that will not help the 31,750,000 people slotted to die from cancer now living in Japan.

            Oh sure, we will go on, but at what cost to our quality of life?

            Maybe its just me, but this is not just a few people shot in a mall shooting…

            You now have disease/cancer rates skyrocketing all over the world.. 🙁

            What a nice thing to do to the world at large in only 60 years of operation.. 🙁

            You were simply lucky..others have not been.

            • The cancer morbidity rates were 'scheduled' to go to 1 in two – and in some places 2 in 3 – by 2020-2050 well before 2011. Radiation is by no means the only cancer-causing bit of nasty offal we've foisted upon ourselves over the years, and it's certainly not the last.

              That's the truth. Fukushima will raise rates locally to ridiculous levels, but it's never going to reach 1:1 because some people are always gonna die of something else before they get diagnosed with cancer. And of diagnosed cancers, these days not all are immediately fatal (though they count 5 years as some kind of 'cure'). Thyroid cancer is one of the least lethal if caught. They're trying to catch Fukushima's.

              Nukes are just one of the Most Deadly Filthy industries we've developed. There are more…

              • Jebus Jebus

                I'm thinking that cancer as an effect on humans is one of the least of our worries right now.

                Look around you at the Earth telling you, that there is something wrong.
                The essential creatures dont speak human.
                Their demise, is the only clue we get…

                • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                  It's all very bad and very sad. 🙁

                  Lets do this just like in that movie where the guy with the eye patch just shut it all down. 🙂

                  Wonder if anyone would be willing to sacrifice their manmade creature comforts to save the Bald Eagle and/or any other life form residing on this planet?

                  No cars, trucks, planes, lights, A/C and on and on…


              • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                JoyB, I really think you have to look at the long 60+ year picture when it all started in earnest with the bombing of Japan, Weapons Testing and mining/transport/storage and then back track to the original discovery around 1900.

                Please, you should do the needed research and then follow the progression of this Nuclear Technology from 1900 forward and then evaluate/compare those discoveries with the world's current cancer/disease rates.

                Of course there is other bad stuff and that has been the premise of the coverup that has been going on, just make a huge toxic soup and then point fingers everywhere else but not/exclude at Nuclear.

                Why? It's invisible, odorless and tasteless and no one knows where this shit is/located/or gone.

                Japan's 1.36 replacement birth rate and 31,750,000 cancer deaths will not be from a cold virus that I can guarantee.

                We have all been hoodwinked by not a promise but by the promotion of a lie.. 🙁

                • Obe, I know the history very well. I know what killed the Curies, and Roentgen. And Becquerel. And a regular who's who list of others. I have always maintained that nuclear technology – any application – is not just terminally foolish, but downright evil. It's just that you personally never encountered me saying so until after Fukushima did its multi-Twisted Sister act in 2011. Because you weren't paying attention.

                  Yep. The lie. Like their very lives depended on convincing you of their lies. Which, come to think of it, they do. I am not hoodwinked, and have never in my entire aware adult life been hoodwinked. At least, not by nukes. All I'm saying is that there's plenty more where that came from, if we want to limit ourselves to just talking about 'evil'.

                  • KiloCharley KiloCharley

                    JoyB, May I ask if you have any knowledge of DCA ? (Dichloroacetate). I would really appreciate your input on this.

            • Play The Five Tones

              Obewanspeaks, Do you happen to have any links to those increases in cancer/disease around the world? Would like to read them. Thanks.


            I've decided, JoyB, such unique insight as you've exhibited out here, merits your being placed on the list of those who are coming with 'us'…

            • I've been trying to get y'all to come along for 35 years. There's nothing I can do about this mess but try to keep it in people's minds. It is what it is, as they all are. It's not until you figure out that they're all – every single one, any design old or new – fatally flawed that you really begin to understand what we've done to ourselves.

              I grew up spending grandparent time every year in eastern Kentucky. I saw what black lung does. I remember when the coal dust was so bad in the Ohio Valley and western Pennsylvania that I believed the whole of reality in those regions was literally black-and-white, like old photographs. I somehow managed to live through bomb testing and the Cuban Missile Crisis too. I figure I'll live until I don't anymore. That was my fate from the moment of my birth, as it is everyone's. All any of us have is time. I've always though it's not good for much if you don't make it good. Do something right with it.

              So I did. Thanks for your kind words. §;o)

            • And here's my take today on a little nostalgia, plus a very nasty situation in Alberta, Canada that we all need to be paying attention to as well…


              • Maggie123

                JoyB, I could almost weep in gratitude for 2nd and 3rd voices (yours and DailyKos) that call attention to the link between eagle nesting habitat at L.Athabaska, the toxicity there, and the 'duh' possibility that these birds are among the many species harmed. ('Hello' – nesting environment?!)

                I noticed a few 'regular news outlets' today featured "could be Fukushima", (re eagles), and had a horrible thought. How convenient to encourage popular focus on Fukushima as most likely, most direct link, to eagle deaths. To do so boosts "need" to tear the boreal forest apart, (including I believe some adjacent aspen forest, very similar rich, vibrant habitat). Helps popular opinion 'seek' alternative to nuclear – 'easy' answer: bitumen.

                There is massive N.American, Arctic feeding, watershed/habitat at risk. This is so little understood. 'In situ' extraction for bitumen (vs scraping landscape down to bitumen) is supposed to better protect forest. But water requirements, which threaten Athabaska watershed wildlife, especially late in season when water volume is reduced, is even higher with 'in situ' – and toxins + 24/7 industrial noise and access roads disturbing wildlife patterns throughout the region remain.

                I have dwindling hope for the forest atop the bitumen. Your voice, and the DK voice, are the first 2 besides my own I've caught in some time. Thank you.

          • deaddolphins simonhhh

            There'll be nothing left alright…the psychopaths running in the top 1% controlling the Alberta Tar Sands, wantingly ripping the guts out of Canada are the same mongrel breed allowing the Fuku disaster to continue unabated to reek havoc initially on Northern Hemisphere and ultimately of global significance…only with the Fuku 'stinkys' the orders of magnitude are arguably 1000's of times worse…

            "We'll all be rooned" said Hanrahan…
            [by John O'Brien a bush poet]

  • Zatrsatr Zatrsatr

    California beach radiation – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anB-R_DQWOs
    Radiation is in the water – sea stars absorb 1000x more radiation than the regular fish, right?
    Radiation is a leading cause of wasting disease to me and definatally can not be ruled out!
    Do not underestimate the buckyballs…

  • Canuck1

    Its starting to get extremely concerning living on the West Coast. The sushi joints are filled with unsuspecting patrons. Although I have told people that the radiation is here and they claim: "I will not change my lifestyle". "You have to die somehow". "Doesn't concern me". "I won't stop eating fish"..These are already brain dead people.

    • Questionit

      canuck1, At that point you just have to back off. You've told them and if they do not want to know they will just avoid you or get upset at you if you continue. But do not stop telling others, there may be a few who are interested and want to know where to start.
      I learned the discussion turns to a mild argument with my sushi friends.

      The next time Obama bails out to the southern hemisphere with family and friends I'm going to get concerned.

      I wish there was info on the political and elite people who left shortly after the first event, not just the president. Where were Bush and family, Cheney and kids, the Clinton family etc.

    • SykeWar(DELETED) SykeWar

      And so, with their compromised immune systems, they spread more diseases more quickly among more people and everyone dies. It's not always the disease that kills, it often the complications. I tell such pseudo-intellectuals don't be raising my obamacare premiums cause your kid's born retarded.

    • Sickputer

      Re: sushi eaters…

      SP: Yes, they are zombies…can't help the Walking Dead. But you can educate your friends and relatives. The umbrella they use in the snowfall may save their lives from plutonium particles exploding the DNA in their lungs.

      Cancer ensues over time for the foolish. Swimmers in the ocean…Swimming Dead.

    • Maggie123

      I think about this because I have people in Calif. who are profoundly dear to me who 'set aside' my concerns. I think I understand – so I try to 'drop tidbits' only every so often. My thinking is this: these are individuals who are genuinely deeply good people day-in, day-out. They are at a time in their lives when "dreams and intentions of what they want to accomplish" remain powerful. They have worked hard, slogged troublesome paths, to get where they are. I know the details.

      IF they were to take what I say to heart, their plans would be quite suddenly irrelevant. The loss (of dreams) is unthinkable. One among them is 'aware' and for now chooses to stick with the dream. I am clearly heard, my voice respected, and a choice is made.

      I understand. I worry. I restrain myself. Maybe they'll be 'o.k.' long enough to fulfill more of the dream they follow. I'd like to think so on their behalf and on behalf of the lives they touch.

      Both they and I, (who attempts to live and speak a different, more 'informed alarmist' theme), may nevertheless 'be hooped'. Who knows. (As PattiB says above: "All any of us have is time. …Do something right with it.") Hardly a reassuring idea, but perhaps, when confronting dismissal of 'the obvious', becomes another reality challenge for us to process.(??)

  • OldFool

    If memory is correct, some mussels (the primary food for sea stars) can concentrate some of the nasty radionuclides in the water by a factor of up to 8000. There are actually three sources of Fuku radiation off the coast – air fallout from March 2011 directly in the ocean, air fallout from the North America land mass that got washed out to sea by rain and snow since March 2011, and then the actual ocean current arrival itself. But don't tell the peasants – might cause a panic.

    • Socrates

      The peasants always grab pitch forks and torches, and head for the castle.

      Things get ugly real fast when uncontaminated food, air and water is in short supply. The serfs like to eat, breathe and drink.

      Obama gave the all – clear, and now folks are not going to be fooled twice. The economy crashed and then BP spill and now this.

      This is the greatest tragedy in United States history.

      • StPaulScout StPaulScout

        It's called 'catastrophe capitalism'. Invented by the 2nd Bush Administration, Dick Cheney to be exact. Well, him and his buddies at Halliberton.

    • jump-ball jump-ball

      1) “Populations go locally extinct overnight"

      2) "Whatever is causing it can spread with astonishing speed — a healthy group of starfish can die in just 24 hours."

      3) "…three sources of Fuku radiation off the coast…and then the actual ocean current arrival itself."

      Our 'inside-the-political-box' state and federal agencies and educational braniacs won't risk any nuclear-negative suppositions as to the increasing and sporadic mortality and swarming-herding irregularities of west coast marine species, but I will:

      Envision the Fuku contaminant ocean poisons now approaching the u.s. left coast, in deadly 'eddy' patterns (not evenly spread across large areas as falsely asserted by the 'dilution-solution' partisans), and striking the coastal marine species in knife-like patterns, as shown in the attached California Current coastal eddy analysis. (Hit 'Control F', and then '0.0-', to see how Fuku-poisoned Pacific water might look from above, approaching the west coast in irregular, deadly, species strikes, if it were photographically visible:


      • Interesting idea and good supportive link

        I hope the radiation is not the lone culprit.

        I grew up swimming in the ocean around Santa Cruz and, later San Diego.

        I knew the CA coast was in trouble after that study on radio-iodine on SoCal kelp was published and covered by a Long Beach paper. I saw a dramatic decrease in hermit crabs in La Jolla in 2012.

        Now the effects on pacific coast life are undeniable. I suspect wide spread immune collapse among already taxed animals. We are in trouble if the radiation alone is killing the starfish.

    • Mass Die Off Of Starfish, Chitons, Abalone, Mussels, Sun Stars, Salmon In Pacific Ocean S. California To Alaska; via @AGreenRoad

    • deaddolphins simonhhh

      Old Fool…Mack wrote on the November 14, 2013…"Here are the greatest amounts of radioisotopes found at one testing site (dry detection)"….

      * Cesium-137 — 3.854 pCi/kg in Dolly Varden fish
      * Cesium-137 — 5.312 pCi/kg in goose Egg no shell
      * Cesium-137 — 5.199 pCi/kg Gull egg
      * Cesium-137 — 8.094 pCi/kg Chiton
      * Cesium-137 — 4.981 pCi/kg Dragon Kelp
      * Cesium-137 — 2.365 pCi/kg Rockweed
      * Cesium-137 — 13.254 pCi/kg Greenling
      * Cesium-137 — .384 pCi/kg Halibut
      * Cesium-137 — 125.381 pCi/kg Horse Mussel soft tissue…
      [CHECK THIS NUMBER out this will rattle up the food chain as it bio accumulates also * Americium-241 — 1.678 pCi/kg Horse Mussel tissue…no "small wonder" about Starfish who are susceptible to plutonium interfering with electrical fields…causing auto immune deficiencies…then turning to "goo"]
      * Cesium-137 — 15.505 pCi/kg Irish Lord
      [CHECK THIS NUMBER out also]
      * Cesium-137 — 1.425 pCi/kg Octopus
      * Cesium-137 — .995 pCi/kg Pacific Cod
      * Cesium-137 — 10.216 pCi/kg Rockfish
      * Cesium-137 — 16.749 pCi/kg Sea Urchin
      * Cesium-137 — 25.254 pCi/kg Reindeer Lichen

      • deaddolphins simonhhh

        * Plutonium-239 — .039 pCi/kg Dolly Varden
        * Plutonium-239 — .186 pCi/kg Goose Egg no shell
        * Plutonium-239 — .104 pCi/kg Gull egg
        * Plutonium-239 — .298 pCi/kg Chiton
        * Plutonium-239 — .093 pCi/kg Dragon Kelp
        * Plutonium-239 — .084 pCi/kg Rockweed
        * Plutonium-239 — .379 pCi/kg Greeling
        * Plutonium-239 — .038 pCi/kg Halibut
        * Plutonium-239 — 4.194 pCi/kg Horse Mussel tissue
        * Plutonium-239 — .378 pCi/kg Irish Lord
        * Plutonium-239 — .036 pCi/kg Octopus
        * Plutonium-239 — .05 pCi/kg Pacific Cod
        * Plutonium-239 — .279 pCi/kg Rockfish
        * Plutonium-239 — .152 pCi/kg Reindeer Lichen
        * Plutonium-239 — .195 pCi/kg Sea Urchin

        * Plutonium-240 — .039 pCi/kg Dolly Varden
        * Plutonium-240 — .106 pCi/kg Goose Egg no shell
        * Plutonium-240 — .069 pCi/kg Gull egg
        * Plutonium-240 — .149 pCi/kg Chiton
        * Plutonium-240 — .037 pCi/kg Dragon Kelp
        * Plutonium-240 — .02 pCi/kg Rockweed
        * Plutonium-240 — .189 pCi/kg Greeling
        * Plutonium-240 — .012 pCi/kg Halibut
        * Plutonium-240 — 2.097 pCi/kg Horse Mussel tissue
        * Plutonium-240 — .189 pCi/kg Irish Lord
        * Plutonium-240 — .021 pCi/kg Octopus
        * Plutonium-240 — .015 pCi/kg Pacific Cod
        * Plutonium-240 — .139 pCi/kg Rockfish
        * Plutonium-240 — .091 pCi/kg Reindeer Lichen
        * Plutonium-240 — .117 pCi/kg Sea Urchin

        • Pete

          Also the sample size for the study you are quoting was atrocious, often only 1 or 2 fish. Other samples were composites which is where they blend several samples together to further cook the numbers. This is one of the few tests where they released a conclusive plutonium result but they were only looking for PU because it was on the island previously from their nuke tests, so of course there's the out for pronukes. Its the Old Plutonium, not the New Plutonium….BS, they know conclusively which plutonium came from where but they aren't releasing that info.

          • deaddolphins simonhhh

            I agree…it is nearly impossible to know what is correct statistical analysis and what is fake agenda [propaganda inducing]…correct statistical inference being then the process of drawing conclusions from data that are subject to random variation, [e.g. observational errors or sampling variation]. Whereas the more substantially, the terms statistical inference, statistical induction and inferential statistics are used to describe systems of procedures that can be used to draw conclusions from data-sets arising from systems affected by random variation, such as observational errors, random sampling, or random experimentation. So then the initial requirements of such a system of procedures for inference and induction are that the system should produce reasonable answers when applied to well-defined situations and that it should be general enough to be applied across a range of situations. Therefore Inferential statistics can potentially be used to test hypotheses and make correct estimations using sample data…alternately there's statistics, dammed statistics and dammed lies!!!

            Mack's data set is of unknown origins and you correctly state: "…Other samples were composites which is where they blend several samples together to further cook the numbers…but they know conclusively where the "bloody" plutonium came from where but they aren't releasing that info…"

            …Speciousness of the WORST order…all life is literally on the line here…

            • deaddolphins simonhhh

              Dr Goodheart…good link
              "…If Fukushima is in 'cold shutdown' and everything is back to normal, why are the fish around Fukushima being measured with drastically higher amounts of radiation, starting in January 2013? Something REALLY REALLY BAD is happening at Fukushima…."

              "…Fukushima is not in cold shutdown, as pro nuclear 'experts' keeps claiming. Radiation levels are rapidly INCREASING, and these increases do not seem to be leveling off, for whatever reason. Could it be that the three coriums that melted out of three reactors have finally started interacting with the ocean?…"

              The evidence indicates…yes

              The blog then went on to ask, why are there massive die offs/weird diseases of seals, walruses, polar bears and herring? These animals are all matching in that they are all having the same health issues. Sores, hair falling out, lethargy, internal damage…on a scale never seen before…this is happening all the way from Alaska to Southern California…

              I'm going for a walk, this is most disturbing!

  • norbu norbu

    Dr. Peter Raimondi and Mike Murray, Maybe, could be, bla bla bla. Are you all afraid of the truth? Blame? Lets cut to the chase. Stop blaming and realize, Its here its there its everywhere. Tell the truth then they can get the world to help to contain this monster, quickly please.

  • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

    Norbu is correct, and yes, it (Radiation Contamination) is now everywhere and we all should prepare for our personal diseases and those diseases that will be genetically passed onto our future offspring.. 🙁

  • Lady M

    Canuck1, something you (and probably all of us) are encountering in your conversations with others is, I believe, the phenomenon of "normalcy bias." That is the term for a mental state that people enter into when facing a potential disaster. It causes them to underestimate both the likelihood that a disaster will occur and the possible magnitude of its effects. Basically, people feel that something terrible that has never happened, or never happened to them specifically, will never happen to them at all. Normalcy bias also makes people tend to interpret warnings in the most optimistic ways possible, and to seize on any ambiguities to infer a less serious situation than the one that is actually brewing. Normalcy bias causes people to think everything will be all right, despite even very large amounts of information to the contrary. Faced with warnings about impending disaster, people experiencing normalcy bias have a cognitive dissonance that they generally resolve in one of two ways: they either refuse to believe the incoming warnings, thereby maintaining the normalcy bias — OR they escape the impending danger by changing their behavior or by evacuating. Origin of normalcy bias may be that it prevents overreacting to, and wasting energy on, all kinds of irrelevant incoming stimuli; downside is — well, exactly what we are seeing now, both here and in Japan. IMHO. There are ways to diminish normalcy bias; I am not an expert in this area but am going to try to read up on it.

    • 富岡_Blue_Heron 富岡_Blue_Heron

      " Normalcy bias also makes people tend to interpret warnings in the most optimistic ways possible, and to seize on any ambiguities to infer a less serious situation than the one that is actually brewing."

      I resemble that remark!

    • Maggie123

      LadyM – thanks for this, will also read up on it. In the last while here's been rising media-shared identification of ways/reasons we resist 'startling' information, 'willful blindness' is one I've especially taken note of. Will add 'normalcy bias' and will check it out.

    • deaddolphins simonhhh

      Lady M…you nailed it

  • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

    Lady M great thoughts, but when it comes to this invisible, odorless and tasteless Nuclear Contamination pollution, it is simply a numbers game, and there is nothing normal about such behavior.

    When 100 cancer people walk into any room 60 of them who got some form of cancer had/are lived/living very healthy lifestyles. Lifestyles filled with healthy exercise, organic, vegetarian etc.

    Bam! Then taken down and out by this gruesome invisible contamination spreading worldwide!

    This is ours/theirs normalcy now.. 🙁

    • hbjon hbjon

      You speak great wisdom Obewan, and it must be here mentioned that the effects from this disaster do not immediately strike the senses. Whereas, misinformation about events and situations promoted by social mind control do immediately strike the senses.

      The slightest possibility of an ELE, when realized, shuts down the analyzer just enough to increase the power of positive suggestion (though unrealistic). Swaying ones beliefs to the side of survival. Lady M touches on an interesting subject that a small verse does not give justice.

  • w29r7 w29r7

    And people still travelling to Japan.. they'll say the same thing regarding concerns; they're too eager to go visitng.
    Symptoms don't show up till years later;
    but people came back and they see nothing so it's safe?
    Like catching a cold or something. Propaganda power.

  • Jebus Jebus

    Look at Mother Nature on the run, in twenty fourteen… 🙁

  • w29r7 w29r7

    Suspicious0bservers talking streamed live-

  • nedlifromvermont

    We are right and the pro-nukers are wrong …

    But if you are angry and right, people respond to the anger (immediate threat) and discount the truth you are trying to share …

    You, we, I, all of us need to share our truths gently, in a soft voice, with loving and sympathetic expressions … the time for anger has passed or will come again …

    It works better this way … gently does it …

    Either way we are screwed, but the time we have left should not be spent hurting others and ourselves, while we try and raise the public's awareness …

    Try it gently and see how it works …

    Peace to the 'newsers, every one of us, everywhere …

    Stay strong in your agony … it will (likely) get worse …

    • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

      The above link is all the entire world and our intellectual brain trust needs to shut down the entire Nuclear Industry Worldwide. 🙂

      If any of this Nuclear Contamination shit was good for us, then the cancer and tumor rates would have gone down immediately in Naples, Italy.

      The truth is they did the exact opposite and they the (cancer+tumors) all skyrocketed, and yes, it will get much worse for all the coming/new born Italian generations into the future.

      They can not clean it up! 🙁 Japan can not clean it up (Radiation Contamination) either! 🙁

      The USA can't clean it up either anywhere that it has been found and if anyone in the USA says they have cleaned it up… they have only pushed it around and are lying. Physics says so.. 🙁

      Shut these Nuclear Rattle Traps down Worldwide and use International Law to end it all!

      Worst Technology ever developed on the face of the Earth… 🙁

    • hexagon

      I just mention it to people assuming they already know all about. I mention the latest thing that has me concerned. They respond like they know and are concerned too, but it's not hard to tell they know little to nothing. I trust their vanity to be intelligent will put them on a path to a google search or at least to take notice when the information is presented again.

  • timemachine2020 timemachine2020

    Partially to blame Really? What they got right is the inability to fight off infections. As with the different flu bacterias killing humans in many countries. Our immune systems are definately being compromised. The thick headed EPA people are not there for us when we need them. Is this what my tax money goes to? Absolute lies and deciepts. C'mon Washington, wake the fuck up! FUKUSHIMA IS HERE!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Lady M

    I hear you, obewanspeaks, but I don't think our two comments above are conflicting. The phenomenon of "normalcy bias" is evolutionarily hard-wired into humans and so it is a feeling that is extremely difficult to overcome. The more onerous the thought of stopping a certain behavior, or evacuating one's home — the stronger the natural urge to deny even the most blatant warnings becomes. This can explain a lot of what we are seeing re people's behavior regarding Fukushima. Heck, even high-ranking folks both here and in Japan are hard-wired with normalcy bias, and we may even be seeing it coming into play, to at least some extent, in how they are handling the Fukushima crisis — ie, thinking it can't possibly get as bad as it probably is going to get. Overall I think that normalcy bias is being exploited right now, to get people to keep doing things that they shouldn't, to keep them ignoring things they should not ignore, and to get them to live in places that are no longer livable. To embrace this notion is somewhat empowering, because normalcy bias can be diminished. And since normalcy bias falls apart when a particular terrible thing DOES happen, because then people CAN envision it happening again, once the Fukushima crisis becomes apparent, a huge dent will have been made in normalcy bias as it pertains to nuclear accidents. Oops, that's a problem, isn't it?!

    • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

      Lady M what you are describing is real and of course the Zeitgeist Matrix currently controls most our brain waves (normalcy) on a daily basis hiding inside the/all corridors of our minds/thoughts.

      The constant brain pounding started at a very young age..birth! 🙁

    • Socrates

      The boiling frogs effect. If you heat the water slowly, the frogs will not jump out until they boil to death.

      People who could have fled Germany in 1930s did not do so. They were warned. People just cannot believe that their comfort zone will be disturbed. It is contrary to experience and an "inconvenient truth."

      Cognitive dissonance theory explains this effect, too. Our government is good. It would not allow a bad thing to happen. Radiation is bad. To reduce the dissonance, one comforts himself by telling himself that those levels are safe enough. Those anti-nuclear are probably catastrophizing.

      Denial is the defense mechanism described by Freud.

      Social psychology and propaganda are used to gain social control. With the BP spill it was Drill, Baby, Drill! The message is that you are a wimp if you worry about the environment.

      • Socrates

        To go ahead with more deep sea drilling, fracking and more NPP in face of environmental disasters, and to schedule the Olympics in Japan is BOLD. Such assertiveness trivialized "timid" voices in the environmental community. You cannot be a true alpha male unless you have that "damn the torpedoes!" attitude like John Wayne, who incidentally claimed his lung cancer was caused by radioactive dust on a movie set next to a uranium mine that eventually killed everyone exposed.

      • name999 name999

        Boiling frogs, whistleblowers and John Wayne…all joined in the same cause.

      • SykeWar(DELETED) SykeWar

        Ignoring the possibility I'll be berated for telling another holohoax :-p The story of Vrba and Wetzler serves as a fine example of how people, the very people you're trying to save, react when told something unbelievable. The details of the story concerning their own people's incredulity and the end result is very facinating.

    • hbjon hbjon

      Ones mind, when it adopts an opinions (weather perceived or agreeable to itself), draws all things in to agree with that opinion, especially when it is attached to the survival dynamic (which has great attracting powers). I believe that was Sir Francis Bacon.

    • tbg

      Normalcy bias and the resulting cognitive dissonance are mental defects, a weakness of the mind. If a volcano were smoking and shaking and only squirting a little lava now and then, and the people living at the base of it ignored it and went on about everyday life, lets say shopping for christmas gifts and haggling about non-healthcare and googling football players, we would say they were crazy. My mind will not let me ignore that which I think is dangerous or lethal to me. Im pretty sure that was rule numero uno every since we mutated out of the warm uranium pit in africa…Death Bad. So to actively argue some MSM tool's babbling points about how everything is OK and sushi is fine, its just a little radiation, so what if there's plutonium particulate on the ground or they don't test our food or they turn off radnet monitors daily or the tbs cam, and hey species die out all the time. Mental Weakness.

    • deaddolphins simonhhh

      Personality disorders…Thought disorders and Psychological or Behavioral Biases normally operate in two's or three's… Potentially in this instance the "Normalcy bias" is operating with "Escalation of Commitment Bias" is an inclination of temperament or outlook to present or hold a partial perspective and a refusal to even consider the possible merits of alternative points of view…

      This could ultimately be connected to sunk cost fallacy" used to describe the phenomenon where people justify increased investment in a decision, [ i.e. a home, school for children, life style etc] based on the cumulative prior investment, despite new evidence suggesting that the cost, starting today, of continuing the decision outweighs the expected benefit…Such investment may include money, time, or even — in the case of Nuclear Energy Strategy or military strategy — human lives. The phenomenon and the sentiment underlying it are reflected in such proverbial images as "Throwing good money after bad", "In for a dime, in for a dollar", or "In for a penny, in for a pound"…with the FUKU dilemma it could also be a case of Denial, minimization and reductionist thinking…whereby "to death do us part"


  • name999 name999

    Other folks may be familiar with the "Deep Sea News" ? Some of the worst lies I have seen so far about Fukushima and the Pacific Ocean.
    The writer of the article, "True Facts About Ocean Radiation and the Fukushima Disaster" is Chris Mah. This is the guy who supports claims that it is safe to swim in the ocean near Fukushima and that the radioactivity would be comparable to eating 9 bananas…honestly, I was astonished reading it. Then going to the home page, reading their mission statement. One of them is to oppose "negativity" about Fukushima.

    It was just a mess. Disinformation at it's worst, but so dumb sounding and looking, and grossly misleading…easy to refute on the bright side. Lots of corrections…if you haven't seen it, worth a look, making light of the danger we are in…a new low for journalism…

  • hexagon

    I just read through the "True facts…" link. The author used the phrase "EHRMAGHAD radioactive SPAGHATTA NADLES"

    I really want to find credible information that allows me a sigh of relief. Why is it so hard for someone to to make counter arguments that aren't full of insults and teenage vernacular?

  • Watch them blame all this on "global warming" or some other Agenda 21 nonsense.

    Fukushima blog site since March 2011

  • Ontological Ontological

    A word of caution to those who are taking supplements that are normally good for radiation detoxification, be warned that these products themselves are gaining bio accumulated radioactive toxins daily, and if not inedible already, it will be soon. I take supplements like hawthorn, ginger, ginseng, red clover, for post surgical cancer cell chemo and all the while doing so, have seen the background get ever higher in each new batch. I have to wonder as midnight NYE, is rang in over each little corner of the Earth; will the bells be tolling the dawning of doomsday?

  • name999 name999

    ontoligical, I am not surprised and have been wondering about that. What we know to do to get and stay healthy is now all different. I was eating Spirulina in the 70's. Finally made a green salad dressing that tasted OK. But Spirolina is now possibly too toxified to help. Not sure about that. May be very difficult or maybe even impossible…hoping there are ways around this but don't know what
    that is at the moment……


    while it's refreshing to see 'Researchers' admitting that 311 "…could be partially to blame…" for this holocaust, isn't that somewhat like being…half pregnant? Perhaps we'll have to endure another three years, before these 'geniuses' finally conclude what's become so effing obvious to the rest of us…from day one…

  • rogerthat

    So what's the common denominator? Organic life forms? Is there something out there with the power to kill all organic life forms, or are some forms of life immune? Will crossing your fingers confer immunity?

  • name999 name999

    …it hasn't for me…I've tried…

  • kayG kayG

    I live near the Gulf Coast. In 34 years I have never seen starfish die like this(see link below). Even in 04' when we had snow, the cold didn't cause this. Your article makes me wonder what really caused this die off.

  • timemachine2020 timemachine2020

    No escaping it, thought we were safer here in Houston because of the gulf breeze that pushes the jetstream north of us usually. Then I came across this 🙁


    • bo bo

      I watched it through. Kudos to the relentless journalist that cornered Texas mayor.
      Does anyone have any idea why Texas groundwater has been so high in alpha radiation even from pre Fuku?

      Also, the whole discussion over how Texas drinking water is far above 'safe levels' becomes even more ridiculous when considering the fact the EPA arbitrarily raised that 'safe level' by 27000 times. This means Houston is having trouble with even that new limit. Spooky.

      • Sickputer

        Bo writes: "Does anyone have any idea why Texas groundwater has been so high in alpha radiation even from pre Fuku?"

        SP: Probably several reasons… Radioactive waste from industry (oil, hospitals, trash disposal, illegal dumping) but my best bet is natural radium and uranium in aquifers building over time in the scale deposits of old Houston water lines. See earlier (18 months ago) discussions about Brady, Texas and their radium problems.

        EPA has known about it since 1996, probably far longer:


        I doubt Rick Perry was ever in the loop until the thyroid case developed.

    • unincredulous unincredulous

      Even Governor RICK PERRY knew about these lies to cover up radiation in Texas' water.

      He was one of the republican party's picks for president.

      Ron Paul may have his faults, but he sure stood out in that crowd.

  • Sickputer

    Thanks TM2020 for the reminder of sad Houston public water supplies…I lived in Houston for 20 years and knew since 1963 drinking the public tap water was not a healthy idea.

    Enenenews was on top of this same sad Houston story since 2011:


    SP: I even surprised my German "cousin" BreadAndButter about the horrible story of Houston pollution in that thread. Surprising since most Germans who visit Texas think you are poisoning them if your offer water from the kitchen tap. P

    ublic water in Germany and most of Europe has been polluted for centuries…many middle class and above citizens practice safe water habits in their diet…beer, wine or bottled/filtered water.

    I remember the HUGE plastic bowls of Vicks inhalers for 39 cents each at the U-Totem and 7/11 stores in Pasadena, Texas (big Houston suburb on the Ship Channel. Everybody was sucking in fumes from the steel mill and petrochemical pollution and respiratory "allergies" were rampant.

    I always said Houston pollution killed me, but I have refused to fall over yet. *;-)

  • cooterboy

    The assumption of governmental deniability is standard practice until this nice package, over time, becomes frayed and the seams come apart. Our government has reached the top of the bell curve on this issue of radiation and denial. I would bet that our gov. is hiring, right now, top scientists who will propagate and massage the lies our leaders cannot and will not tell. These so called scientists will sell their soul for a buck.

    Changes to are ecosystem are happening daily in such a manner that it becomes incomprehensible. We look at death as a primary indicator to causation, while scientists tidy it up with denial and your elected officials worry about the Keystone Pipeline.

    Science was the promoter of nuclear use and now they should investigate what is before them, the death and dying of thousands of earths creatures and the destruction of our oceans.

    Your government will continue to lie to you because if GE fails, so it will be with Wall Street and the shifting of wealth. Great depressions are cyclical. QE gave the rich more money and bankrupted this country on the backs of the commoner.

    If things really, really bad at Fukushima, remember your elected officials will go to Greenbrier to relax and ride out the waves of radiation.

    Can't wait for drone hunting season to begin.

  • StPaulScout StPaulScout

    As far as trying to tell people about Fukushima goes, I point them to the videos of the reactors exploding and some photos of the place shortly afterwards. If they are too stupid to be concerned well then nothing will make them understand. They are actually the lucky ones! Many of us here know full well what comes next. They will live in ignorant bliss until this mess whacks them over the head and they are forced to pay attention.

  • Crash2Parties Crash2Parties

    Hey, esteemed researchers: Test the damn starfish for radiation in a lab just like you would food samples.

    Okay, scratch that. Just like we would *want* the government to do with food samples.

  • jec jec

    If someone with starfish samples was to contact http://www.ki4u.com, they might get some free labratory testing. KI4U has all the necessary equipment..food/you name it. Try it if you have samples. You would have to package them (frozen? dry ice? ) and send overnight or such (smells..), and bagged several times in plastic. Now not saying to ship radioactive materials..but since US gov says nothing is there to worry about, and we do not have a way of knowing other than the government..just saying.

    At least send your old car air filters to them for testing..