“Nothing like this has ever been attempted” — Yale Professor: “All of humanity will be threatened for 1000s of years” if rods in Unit 4 pool touch and have nuclear reaction during removal process — Tepco: “Not clear” if fuel is already damaged

Published: October 27th, 2013 at 12:30 am ET
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South China Morning Post, Oct. 27, 2013:

  • Nothing remotely similar has been attempted before and while everyone – nuclear experts, government officials, environmental groups and the public – agrees that the rods [in the Unit 4 pool] must be moved to more secure storage,
  • [I]t is feared that any error of judgment could lead to a massive release of radiation into the atmosphere
  • Unit 4 at the plant contains an alarming 10 times as much caesium-137 as was at Chernobyl, experts say
  • [A] spokesman for Tepco [...] admitted, however, that it was not clear whether any of the rods were damaged or if debris in the pool would complicate the recovery effort.

Charles Perrow, a professor emeritus at Yale University

  • [He's] made even more strident warnings
  • “Conditions in the unit 4 pool, 100 feet from the ground, are perilous, and if any two of the rods touch it could cause a nuclear reaction that would be uncontrollable [and] would require the evacuation of surrounding areas including Tokyo”
  • “[Then] the common storage pool could not be continuously cooled; they would fission and all of humanity will be threatened, for thousands of years”

Unnamed nuclear energy expert who’s monitored Tepco during Fukushima crisis

  • “I would prefer to have had some US companies that are experts on spent fuel decommissioning brought in to assist”
  • [S]hould the worst happen at the Fukushima plant [...] Some of the contamination would undoubtedly reach Tokyo
  • “If so, go up to a very high floor — Radioactive particles are heavy, so keep out of basements”

See also: Fukushima documents discuss "fuel that is severely damaged" inside cooling pool -- Illustrations of "deformed or leaking fuels" (PHOTO)

Published: October 27th, 2013 at 12:30 am ET
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Related Posts

  1. NHK: Fuel removal at Unit 4 underway — BBC: Concern casks not watertight, rods would contact air — WSJ: Exposure to air can cause sustained nuclear reaction — AFP: Tokyo evacuations if uncontrolled nuclear conflagration? AP: Rods contain plutonium, experts concerned quake to hit during process November 18, 2013
  2. Gundersen: 200 brand new fuel bundles in Fukushima Unit 4 pool are most at risk to start nuclear chain reaction — If too close together during removal, there will be a criticality — “They have to be very, very cautious” (AUDIO) September 27, 2013
  3. NHK: Fuel removal process underway at Unit 4 (VIDEOS) July 18, 2012
  4. Nuclear Engineer: Tepco implies “there is plenty of damaged fuel” in Unit 4 fuel pool that they can’t even touch (VIDEO) June 27, 2012
  5. Japan Diplomat: Concern fuel rods in Unit 4 pool are damaged — “Have they moved”? — Transfer process could go on for decades, not months October 22, 2013

323 comments to “Nothing like this has ever been attempted” — Yale Professor: “All of humanity will be threatened for 1000s of years” if rods in Unit 4 pool touch and have nuclear reaction during removal process — Tepco: “Not clear” if fuel is already damaged

  • Oncewaslost Oncewaslost

    This is all very reassuring.


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    • We Not They Finally

      Reassuring to WHO? To the black fungus or to the cyanobacteria?


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    • StPaulScout StPaulScout

      Remember, this is the same group of people that put the damned generators in the basements. I can easily see them pull a fuel bundle up, it gets stuck half way out, and they can't push it back down. It gets very hot, very quick. More bad things happen, then we all kiss our collective asses good bye!


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      • Oncewaslost Oncewaslost

        They are not gonna pull these rods out.

        The pool was drained and there was fire and explosion, and they subsequently have poured salt water over the thing for who knows how long.

        Building parts fell onto the apparatus. Including a huge crane.

        We can only pray the structure they built will hold the pool up in the sky as they dither and discuss pulling it out, until they realize they cannot and come up with something they can do….. which might involve a HUGE Crane and apparatus built to lower the whole thing in tact down into the ground where they create some cocktail mix of goodies to bury it all in some sort of containment.

        Everything else is just fairytales.


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        • We Not They Finally

          "They are not gonna pull these rods out." O.k. You do qualify as a SANE person. Was just testing here. I thought that your original comment may have been sarcastic on the far edge.


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        • crystalwind crystalwind

          I have no technical expertise, but that's what I wondered long ago–was it possible to lower the pool, or at least slip some supports under it, or better than individual supports–build a solid column under it– while they came up with a better idea.


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          • Oncewaslost Oncewaslost

            Think of it this way.

            There is a HUGE pool of spent fuel, not attached to any building, quite removed from the scenes of the explosions, it is the biggest pool of spent fuel. Everyone from Dunderson on down says, if SFP 4 goes it brings down that big fuel pool and its armegeddon the rapture is upon us!End of days baby.

            However, for some unexplained reason that pool, just sitting there in the ground, with no damage has not been emptied.

            They have not removed the fuel from it.

            That means or at least would suggest, they cannot even remove that fuel out of harms way. So they sure as hell aint pulling rods at blown up fuel pools, capiche?

            We should demand they pull the big pool out of there. And see what happens. Before we buy into sfp alarmism designed to communicate fear in order to manage the issue because they know teh end result of any attempt at getting the spent fuel out of there.

            They just want to bury it, so we dont ever know what actually happened in that pool and the only way they do that is to drop it down whole.


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            • rodgersericv

              From what I understand the spent fuel pool at reactor 4 is 100 feet above the ground, leaning, and contains debris. They have built special equipment to remove the fuel. They are going to attempt to remove possibly damaged fuel in a damaged structure. That has been the plan all along.


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        • HoTaters HoTaters

          Oncewaslost, have also wondered if there weren't some way to lower the whole mess or just entomb it.


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          • HoTaters HoTaters

            Or maybe they can just build some sort of giant dry cask around the whole spent fuel pool. Then weld it into place, reinforce the whole building, or dismantle the building after the "cask" is built.

            Then fill in the area around it with soil, cement, borosilicates, or something else to capture or alter the radioactive substances there.

            Maybe I'm just goofy, but it's time to think outside the box.


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            • Oncewaslost Oncewaslost

              This is more what i am talking about… Why on earth would they risk criticality pulling it out and lighting up the huge neighbouring fuel pool.

              I say get the fuel out of the neighbouring fuel pool before attempting anything at 4.


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            • bo bo

              I'm going to repost here an idea that unincredulous came up with a while ago… piling up dirt high around the spf 4 building so that the ground meets the fuel pool and basically the dirt reinforces the building walls as well as fuel pool will no longer be high up in the air (you can just walk right up to it since the ground around it will become higher…). This still doesn't solve the problem of pulling out the fuel rods safely but it would make it less precarious (won't have to lower the rods such a distance down towards the ground). I thought it was an interesting idea.


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              • Oncewaslost Oncewaslost

                Well they have constructed a massive building no doubt with multiple uses and fallback plans.

                What makes no sense is pulling the rods out.

                It sounds to me they are simply preparing the ground for a reversal on pulling rods.

                Remember in the general sense everyone aware of the FUKU situation understands that SFP4 is the primary concern. Whether this is real or imagined hardly matters. The narrative focuses everything onto it, and they need to continue the threaten and rescue narrative because they have little else to deliver there.

                Threat, SFP4 tipping, pulling rods resulting in criticality.

                Rescue: bury, lower, whatever the entirety of the pool. All teh while ensuring no one ever knows the actual status of the fuel in the pool.

                Saying you are pulling the fuel, suggests there is fuel to pull and that it is still intact, an imperative for the narrative.


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              • HoTaters HoTaters

                bo, yes, that sounds like a good idea.


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              • unincredulous unincredulous

                I think someone else posted the idea before I did. They said they did. It just seems like the simplest idea.

                Then again, there was this guy who had placed massive stones in his property. He did it all by himself. I think it was done with the aid of some mysterious frequency generator box.

                If more people were made aware of the precarious position that the world is in, more of these closely held secrets would be given up.

                If this task of fuel rod removal is done successfully, I doubt that it will be televised. I bet the place will be like area 51, and maybe that is why the lying and covering up maybe.

                Just wishful thinking.

                Peace, and God Bless this messed up crazy world.


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          • fuganzi

            Can't entomb it.

            The fuel is emitting heat. If this heat is not allowed to escape, it builds up, until the surrounding entombing material burns, or the cladding burns. If the cladding burns, there is radioactive release. From there, the geometry of the fuel changes (no longer contained) – and criticalities (more heat) occur. (it can also melt).

            The fuel can get up to 2500-3000 degrees C, if not cooled. There's nothing you can entomb it with that's not going to burn.

            It's got to be kept cool, until the decay heat (by products like iodine, caesium, strontium, xenon, etc) burns-off. This takes about 7 years.

            SP 4 has the freshest and hottest fuel, (and the most), and it's structurally unstable, so it is the most dangerous.


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            • fuganzi

              On Hatrick Penry's site, the NRC discussion included the idea to dump sand into the pool. The sand would allow for water to circulate, and cooling to occur. But it's not clear to me whether that would be enough to keep it cool, or if the sand would melt/burn.

              Also, dry-casks are not a permanent solution, because even inside the zirconium cladding, even cooled-spent fuel, can leak. Dry-casks allow air circulation for cooling, so radiation can be released if that cladding becomes damaged (oxidation from heat and moisture in the air). This is not a problem in a 20-50 year time-frame. But after that, the spent fuel is cooler, lower radiation, and the plan is to pull it out, inspect it, probably re-process it for longer-term, more secure storage. Nobody has really approached that problem yet.


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        • StPaulScout StPaulScout

          Maybe so, but they keep saying they plan on pulling rods out. I recall Arnie viewing the SFP for, I believe, number 4 and wondering where all the spent fuel was after the accident. He stated it was not there but should have been. In any event, they sound like they are determined to pull something out of the building.


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  • These comments by the so called experts are rather odd, they are alarmist to a degree.

    Sure this is dangerous, and sure TEPCO has effed up stuff time and again.


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    • CoffeeGrinder CoffeeGrinder

      Which part did you find "alarmist"? Everything I read there was literally and verifiably true.


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      • Bones Bones

        The use of language especially the words used to describe things often annoys me because of how it can change real debate. "Alarmist," would mean he said everyone will die tomorrow, but the truth is never alarmist or doom p**n. Using words like alarmist and conspiracy kook and uneducated are just character assassination tools the nuke industry uses. We must redefine the language of our argument so people can easily digest it while putting the nukers on defense. Playing defense rarely wins and I won't help them by using words like alarmist. IMO, it sounded like Stock was being a bit facetious and maybe wondering, "Well if they are saying this then how bad is it in reality?" Could mean the complete opposite. lol I don't really get the post. What is truly alarming is Japan's complete lack of allowed assistance! The Japanese gov't is alarmist because it allows three and a half meltdowns go unabated after more than two years. How is the Japanese leadership and TEPCO not in court for crimes against humanity by this point? Why is no government forcing Japan to accept help and "open" Fukushima to the world to work on all together? There is no more face to save as Japan went from youth dream capital to the tainted forever tiny islands poisoning the whole world and doing jack except lying. That is modern day Japan. That to me is very alarming, but I guess if you ignore the plethora of corruption, ineptitude, and debt


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        • See my reply below.

          USA sees Japans LACK of restarts as a "security threat to the USA" and they stated that directly.

          The military industrial complex is alive and powerful, and its a big problem.

          USA is the country taking the biggest hit from Fukushima, besides Japan. Sad


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        • unincredulous unincredulous

          In my meager experience, and education, I have learned that a certain Edward Deming, a well-meaning fellow who found no eager following in the United States; Introduced his system of Total Quality Management to Japan. The Japanese, not having really gained any true value from its exchanges with the west; embraced this concept and worked hard to make a go of the system. The west, observing the benefits of hard work mistook the causality of the results as a product of Mr. Deming. The corporate and military structures of the west made a god of this system and made an altar to it. What was initially rejected by the west was given a priority and raised to a FUBAR reality. Mission Statements were more important than the mission. The mission was forgotten in the complexity of the compliance and humanity was forgotten as well. Resumes of perfection required lies and the vilest of deception to meet the mission statement. Lies are all that are left to vainly attempt to support bloated resumes and falsified values. Now back to my drink…


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      • If 2 rods touch does NOT for sure mean "the evacuation of Tokyo"
        It would probably result in a localized criticality of high nuetron activity, and if shielded by water, the nearby workers would be OK, otherwise they would be toast. The assumption that 2 rods touching EQUALS evacuation of Tokyo is an irresponsible joke. In the disaster several hundred or thousands of rods touched (and melted and some burned), but there was no evacuation of Tokyo.

        "if so go up to a very high floor because radioactive particles are heavy" How dumb is this? Most likely winds would pass the particles more upward. But the whole precept that because uranium and plutonium are heavy metals…that they won't "float" is completely wrong, they float just fine when aerosolized.

        Check here on how far and wide uranium and plutonium was dispersed in SIGNIFICANT quantities

        http://nukeprofessional.blogspot.com/p/uranium-aerosolized-into-atmosphere.html

        "any error of judgement could lead to a massive release of radiation"….sheesh, it makes it seem like a minor slip up could cause disaster. In reality, they could make 100 minor mistakes, and cause no harm beyond increased dose at the plant.

        Although I will admit….TEPCO has the capability of making more than minor mistakes.


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        • Wooster

          "if shielded by water, the nearby workers would be OK, otherwise they would be toast."

          Isn't that the point though, that these rods cannot be kept under water whilst being transferred this time because of damage to the containment structures and computer controlled cranes.

          As I understand it the rods will have to be lifted into the air by eye and then put into containers as the computer records for the exact location of each rod no longer exists (no one thought to back them up??).

          Or have I got this wrong?


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          • or-well

            Wrong. The plan has it all underwater.
            So they say.


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            • unincredulous unincredulous

              They are going to wait until the next tsunami, and do it really fast. Contract with HAARP is too expensive.


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            • Any criticality in the pool that lasts a minute or more will expose anyone within easy striking distance [~50 yards or less and not behind feet of concrete and inches of steel/lead] to a lethal dose of gamma/neutron radiation. Death in 90 days or less.

              Robots don't do so well with that kind of shine either. I hope their remotes are well-shielded.


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          • The computer records of locations of rods means naught at this point.

            If 2 touch, and shielded by water, not so bad for workers. Some workers may die, 100,000 died at and after Chernobyl of the liquidators. Just saying….

            I think there will be a time frame of no water shielding, but I dont know their plans on how to mitigate.


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            • HoTaters HoTaters

              stock, I so hope you're right about the situation not being as dire as some think. We need sound, reasonable judgment here. If the situation isn't likely to be as dire as predicted if only minor mistakes are made, I'm all for breathing a collective sigh of relief.


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          • unincredulous unincredulous

            I read somewhere that the lifting eyes had melted off some of the rods.

            I guess a cargo strap will do…


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          • razzz razzz

            Wooster: The removal of any used fuel has to take place underwater until placed inside transfer casks which are also underwater. Once inside the transfer casks, a cask can be raised out of the water and lowered down to ground level to be trucked a short distance and placed in the common pool for longer term storage.

            4's pool is already overloaded after all the fuel was taken out of the core and placed in the pool while refurbishing its shroud (reflector). So, the plan is to put casks into the empty core and begin transferring fuel from the pool into casks which will be sitting in the core (like they do when refueling the core but this time they are loading casks for removal, all underwater).

            I read they tented the overhanging removal building and connected filters and the exhaust stack to the building in case of any radioactive releases.

            Remember they removed some unused fuel from 4's pool with a crane and cable straight up into air, to inspect them for damage. No removal problems then. It is the used fuel that can heat up and irradiate persons nearby in open air and must be kept underwater during transfer to casks.

            I have no idea what will happen when trying to lift up fuel and moving it over to a cask, 1,535 moves or 460 tons of nuclear fuel. It will all happen underwater but I hope they have some boron standing by.


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        • "The assumption that 2 rods touching EQUALS evacuation of Tokyo is an irresponsible joke."

          The author is not speaking literally: He is merely explaining that in his professional experience in the field, the slightest error can result in an utter catastrophe.

          It is important in my experience, to mention the worst case scenario's prior to allowing such operations to commence. Had Tepco listened to its contractors that warned of existing faults in the area prior to building these facilities, said (worst case scenario) would be non existent.

          To rationalise with you stock, This professor went out of his way to give his professional opinion, in a field that he is apart of. Which could very likely ruin his career with one of our nations most privileged universities…

          I only ask why someone so honored would make such a sacrifice, if the matter was of no consequence

          My point is that you are happy to mention that the above opinion: The assumption that 2 rods touching EQUALS evacuation of Tokyo is an irresponsible joke.

          While a professor at yale bets his reputation and professional career, that the slightest mistake in no laughing matter…

          Alarmist or not.
          He is giving you an opinion that is free to you because he believes that you should know and do not fully understand the field in which he has dedicated his entire life too.

          Take it or not as you prefer.


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          • He is stating that the touching of 2 rods is equal to a 100% guarantee that evacuation of Tokyo will result.

            That is false and alarmist. Regardless of his motivations, he is not doing the antinukes a favor, and he is not going to stop the attempt by TEPCO at this time.

            I know enough with a MSME in material science and thermal fluids, 20 years in the energy field, and 2000 hours training in nuke.


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            • "it could cause a nuclear reaction that would be uncontrollable [and] would require the evacuation of surrounding areas including Tokyo”

              The action in the statement is: Could.
              It could cause a nuclear reaction that would be uncontrollable.

              Uncontrollable being the effect.

              And in that case
              would require the evacuation of surrounding areas including Tokyo”

              He is implying that there may be a level of intensity that is simply "uncontrollable".
              /and If that were the case. "An uncontrollable chain reaction"; Would lead to the evacuation of surrounding areas, such as tokyo.

              He only speaks from his own experiences, in the field.


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            • soern

              @stock
              "I know enough with a MSME in material science and thermal fluids, 20 years in the energy field, and 2000 hours training in nuke."
              Well, that is great as then you probably can tell me
              wether melted rods will fission generally?
              How many rods melting together will start fissioning?
              Are the molten cores fissioning or why possibly not?
              These questions need to be cleared generally and exactly.
              Thanks in advance


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              • Melted rods will in general already have fissioned, as it was the fissioning that created the heat to melt them.

                Rods "close together" without a neutron absorber (usually boron plates or rods, or water, or boron laced water) will fission

                I believe the melted cores are still fissioning, esp as they are jostled by minor earthquakes and tidal movements. To stop the process, the mass must be both separated and cooled. that is a tough bill to fill if the 100,000 pound masses of corium have left the building.


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                • soern

                  so fissioning means chain reaction right?
                  If yes, molten content of SFP4 likely long ago must have melted down through the building and could be on the same way like those 3 molten cores? That could explain how TEPCO People could invite guest to SFP4 at all – it is empty and that towels covering the pool just hide a big hole? So the big show to get fuel out of SFP4 is probably just theater as how could there beeing some fuel rods left. We have 4 Meltdoms then and that #4 one shurely is the largest.
                  So at least for me it is clear now, that there will be MT.Daiichi eruption some day.


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                • CodeShutdown CodeShutdown

                  9 hours of burning, supposedly no water, and Arnie says zirc cant be put out once ignited. How does this correlate with a bent pack of cigs? But the building is still there and people work on it. Doesnt compute


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                  • soern

                    it computes assuming zirc burnt away and the rest simply melted through all floors down into ground :-)


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                    • soern

                      "How does this correlate with a bent pack of cigs?" That is a special problem of Arnie only as he seems to believe all official tales. I dont mind about Arnie at all :-)


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                    • We Not They Finally

                      How can "zirc[onium] burnt away" compute if it's a fire that can't be put out? Not deliberately starting a non-extinguishable nuclear fire in the first place, seems like maybe it's a better idea.


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                  • razzz razzz

                    CodeShutdown: Maybe 4's pool never went dry and even though the upper portions of the fuel assemblies were out of water, there was steam (water vapor) rising from heated water that was remaining in the pool. Steam is hot but can still cool the fuel as it passes by (steam is cooler than fire).

                    Until the pools were refilled with (salt?) water, did some fuel burn up in 'hot areas' and/or fuel pellets drop to the bottom of the pool? I don't know.


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                    • CodeShutdown CodeShutdown

                      razz, the picture I get from Arnie is that once the zirconium cladding is ignited, it will continue to burn even under water. Maybe Im not remembering him correctly. But if there were several hours of burning, even with steam…a roiling boil, cooling much of the rods, wouldnt you think all zirconium moderation would be lost and the fuel dropped and melted? This is the mystery, since they talk about everything being intact with only some lifting lugs being melted


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                    • razzz razzz

                      If any cladding burnt then we already had a partial ELE. The reaction of stripping hydrogen from water/moisture can only be maintained if the cladding is burning. Once it completely burns up then there is no more reaction.

                      I don't where the fires in 4 came from but if it was cladding burning, there should be fuel pellets at the bottom of the pool. Melted or not.

                      Underwater video of the pool show most of the fuel intact or at least what is shown.

                      Unit 3 is a different story but involved less fuel in the pool.


                      Report comment

                  • HoTaters HoTaters

                    code shutdown, what happened to your eye?


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            • VanneV anne

              Since Tokyo is contaminated already, it should already have been evacuated. We can probably assume that Tokyo will never be evacuated even under any circumstances. How do you evacuate 35,000,000 people? And where do you evacuate them to? The evacuation plans for Fukushima had the people evacuated to an area within the evacuation zone. Do evacuation plans even exist for Tokyo? Has anyone seen them?


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          • StPaulScout StPaulScout

            Tacomagroove – Nice to see you posting. Always like to read your thoughts on this. Thanks!


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          • Robin of Loxley

            What professional experience does Charles Perrow have? This so-called nuclear 'expert' is a sociology professor with no nuclear expertise or qualifications at all. And of course the Chinese paper that published the article conveniently forgot to mention that.

            Posters on this site have really gone off the deep end lately. For whatever reasons, most posting here want all this to be the end of the world.


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        • We Not They Finally

          Stock, Tokyo should have ALREADY been long since evacuated!


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          • We Not They Finally

            It is in no way "alarmist" to sit around and sit how ill people get year by year, instead of doing the right thing by people and sounding a big freaking alarm!!

            When SHOULD the alarm be sounded? AFTER massive birth deformities?


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        • rodgersericv

          Tokyo should have been evacuated in the original disaster. Lucky for them the wind was blowing out to sea. Since they didn't evacuate the first time, if something happens and the wind is blowing towards Tokyo, we are going to see a lot of irradiated people not just the ones that have already been irradiated in the Fukushima area.


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        • fuganzi

          I think that the fear is of a couple of scenarios. In most cases, entire assemblies will be removed. But the assemblies are damaged and distorted, so there is no way to predict whether rods will touch, or if assemblies and rods break, or get stuck, or if shifting weight in the pool will cause a leak, draining the pool.

          If two, (or more) rods touch, and there is a criticality, if it's under water, it could STILL kill workers, and right-quickly. The question is what happens then? Can another worker continue? are they stuck with a broken assembly and no way to move it because radiation is too high? And during a sustained criticality, the water could boil-off, which could set the whole pool ablaze again.


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    • Naha Johari

      Stock, through mass conditioning by corporate media, honesty is deemed to be alarmist, even a threat to national security, whilst lies and obfuscation are deemed to be responsible.

      It's a great thing to think positive, work for good, pray for good etc, but burying our heads in the sand over worst case scenarios is pissing in the wind.


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    • CodeShutdown CodeShutdown

      "Nothing remotely similar has been attempted before and if any two of the rods touch it could cause a nuclear reaction that would be uncontrollable." This sounds like a cheap Hollywood movie script. What are the odds then, of two rods touching (disregarding for a wee second that they may all be melted/burned from that 9 hour water free burn), …90%? 99% chance of apocalypse? Who saw the illuminati card game? At least show a little creativity and change the story. I think the plan must rely on some international contribution and everything is secret. If the rods are sitting there in code shutdown for the moment, and the structural weakness of the building is the problem, then the obvious thing is to stabilize in place until you can devise a better plan than a 99% chance world ending doom. They may be dumb but theyre not stupid. The story doesnt fit together. Press releases….written for you and me


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      • bo bo

        Code, I've seen those card games, they are weird. Apparently made in 1995, so the predictions are spot on. But what's the proof that it was made in 1995? How do we know it isn't a hoax? Not arguing with you, just don't know much about it.


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    • We Not They Finally

      Its not alarmist its a major under statement..Why dont we simply state that this is a major ELE..Why would anyone state 1000 yrs.ELE is an extinction level event.Its like saying if there is no more life on this planet than what would 1000 yrs be? How about millions of yrs before we see earth with life again.


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    • Oncewaslost Oncewaslost

      Stock,

      The reason the comments are alarmist is they are managing an issue.

      They have to talk up the notion of actually doing what they claim and pulling the rods out, so when the time comes to say "we cannot do it" there will have sufficient fear spread so we all breathe a collective sigh of relief, when they announce another huge bit of bad news.

      ITs perception management kind of a "there is nothing we can do, and we saved everyone as a result." But we tried…..

      Teh crane will then be connected to some kind of apparatus to lower the whole poll down if possible…. but thats about the best case scenario.

      ;)


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  • Steven Steven

    In the first few months of this crisis there were some here at Enenews shouting about the end of the world, others saying it was no big deal. Most early observers were unsure but aware something serious was unfolding.

    My own research pointed to the complex and unstable conditions at unit 4 as the critical point, with 'hot' new fuel sitting alongside older rods in a damaged SFP basically swinging in the breeze, which was discussed at the time. But the main focus was on melt down, melt through, lost coriums etc (which certainly gets one's attention).

    These things typically unfold over a longer period than generally expected. Enenews has done a great job of keeping people informed, but the creeping normality of logging in here daily for over two years might be deceptive; the world hasn't ended and most people are still eating Pacific seafood with no apparent ill effects.

    Don't be deceived… the really big challenges are just beginning, accompanied by some very serious potential consequences. Let's hope they finally have their act together for this one. Good luck to them and to the rest of us, for that matter.


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    • pure water

      There are a lot of doubts about this pool after so many proven lies. I am reading this now:
      http://hatrickpenryunbound.com/?p=3928
      And the health issues need some time to unfold.


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      • Oncewaslost Oncewaslost

        My sense from 5 thousand miles away is that pulling any rods out of bundles that have been cooled in salt water is just not humanly possible.


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        • Socrates

          That's my take, too. Using the Gundersen analogy of removing bent cigarettes fromMarlboro box, or Dr. Hirsch' pick-up-sticks analogy, which I thought of independently, and knowing what happens when salt water comes into contact with metal, the effects of heat and radiation on materials, it seems almost impossible. Yet, leaving the rods there cannot be safely done either.

          There is huge risk.

          Being a "prepper" seems prudent to this former boy scout. You can also anecdotally at least test the efficacy of prayer. Maybe both.


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          • Socrates

            And that's assuming that the rod's are still there!

            Many mind games have been played by authorities who know that you cannot evacuate 35 million people….

            They finally had to admit this at SONGS. The shareholders might lose MONEY if it took out San Diego, Los Angeles, and Orange Counties along with pats of Riverside and San Bernardino. In Japan, it is too late to take precautions such as permanently shutting down the reactors since the earthquake already happened. Just think, property values could fall with nuclear stigma – human lives are not valued since there are already too many of them. Besides, there is legal immunity.


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            • soern

              "And that's assuming that the rod's are still there!"
              I've read that documentation above and there we can read, the walls of SFP$ were lost which means there can't be water contained any more, which further means nothing could have stopped the total meltdown of SFP4's content.
              So i'd assume, SFP4 is totally empty, there are big holes through every floor under SFP4 down to ground where China Syndrome #4 may have started.
              The hole story is Theatre only in ordr to cover up China Syndrome #4.
              I wonder whether Arnie has read the documents
              hatrickpenryunbound – probably not.


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              • Socrates

                Yes, soern, the NRC documents show that the rods were thought to have gone into the atmosphere. One issue is whether those reporting to the NRC had first-hand knowledge and/or photo -documented the evidence. The readings have been either tampered with or manipulated. That takes us to the hole in the bucket proof that the rods are gone. The real proof will come Years down the road when the epidemic of cancer hits and the genetic dysmorphology becomes undeniable.

                If the third largest world economy went belly up and took down the US economy, mass morbidity and mortality from radiation resulted, even after many years latency period, lawsuits would be filed and blame assigned. Other than that, and the fact that evacuation of the whole planet is too expensive, what possible motivation would they have to cover this up?

                Being from the Show Me state, I would like to see the data myself and make a personal inspection.


                Report comment

            • Oncewaslost Oncewaslost

              ITs been a shell game that is for sure.

              However I have seen convincing footage that SFP4 was salvaged and they managed a patchwork cooling system.

              They also walked back the original claims about the wall being blown out etc..

              But who knows for sure as it has been a great exercise of deception Gunderson chief amongst them.


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    • 16Penny 16Penny

      Steven, the ill effects from that level of radioactive contamination can take years to manifest into actuarial figures that can be crunched by the bean counters. I agree that this is just the beginning and I think the next ten years (assuming things do not go horribly wrong with #4 next month) will be a slow motion horror show.


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      • unincredulous unincredulous

        Yes, bean counters are insane.

        I know a guy who makes millions. He has had some success.

        I told him that locally a friend of mine makes half as much as an engineer as an assistant engineer at the same hotel in Nashville, and he is upset with the local pay rates.

        The bean counter said my friend must be mistaken, because his bean counting documents indicate a comparable income level here.

        My friend went to Nashville, and spoke with the assistant engineer. He was offered a job with X amount of remuneration.

        To the bean counter, such first hand knowledge is not worth a hill of beans.


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    • Steven Steven

      Hi pure water, thanks good link; he has some interesting data and insights but he's wrong about the SFP at U4. If there had been a full release we would have known about it, every physics professor in the northern hemisphere with access to a geiger counter would have migrated south by now.


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      • Sickputer

        I hope you are right Steven about the total percentage of burn-up rate at Unit 4 SFP. There might be some scientific calculations of burn rate from some of the non-fissile test fragments they pulled out last year. Maybe.

        Nice to see TG again… Good points about Dr. Perrow.

        Also agree with others the basement remark is a little out of his expertise, but the man is pushing mid 80's (World War II vet) and had his first college degree before I was born. So he knows the military-industrial complex better than 99% of the members on this list. Nice of this old Berkley professor to still have some zing left against the entrenched bureaucracy.

        Charles Perrow in 2012:

        "Nuclear denials parallel other denials such as climate change and the link between smoking and cancer, aligning state and corporate interests. The US and the Soviet Union utilized denial and secrecy with respect to radiation damages from atomic bombs, bomb factories, and nuclear power plants in order to legitimate the bomb and its bad seed, nuclear power plants. When obvious damages unmasked denial and secrecy, risk analysis was employed. Probability Risk Analysis ignored possibilities, and favored probabilities, which were always found to be low."
        To be continued…


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        • Sickputer

          "Since they were not zero, the risk analysis trope blamed the victims for their lifestyles or unreasonable fears, with terms such as “radiophobia” accounting for morbidity and mortality. These dynamics are emerging in Fukushima where the radiation effects are said to be trivial but the psychological effects potentially deadly. Powerful state and corporate interests are involved in this social construction of risk. ".

          http://www.cbs.dk/node/236820


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        • Steven Steven

          Hi there Sickputer, may I suggest that living just down the road from a nuke plant one would probably prefer the problem to be underground than out in the open air.

          A full new volatile load (7 months use at time of accident) sitting alongside three spent loads i.e. dirty fuel, all out in the open and threatening to boil dry is an unprecedented cocktail which likely wasn't in anyone's projected risk assessment prior to the event.

          As was often the case in the past TG and I disagree, although in no way am I attempting to trivialize the melt downs which are in themselves appalling. Hundreds of storage tanks full of radioactive water uphill from the plant is appalling. The entire suite of horrors beggars belief. All of these problems are at least manageable to some degree with people on site, God help and protect them.

          But if the SFP at Unit 4 goes they will have to withdraw.


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      • It makes for an interesting debate.. Is #4 empty having burned everything up already, or is it still full of death on invisible wings?

        Will there be enough transparency to find out which theory is true, down the road?

        Will Nature bring down #4 SFP or cause some other calamity at Fukushima that causes the cascading failure of the whole site, forcing it to be abandoned?

        Will Japan get serious and devote enough resources to stop the 400 to 40000 tons of highly radioactive water leaking into the ocean PER DAY?


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      • soern

        @Steven
        after having read the long part of documents by scrolling down far,
        i read about lost SFP4 Walls, no water to be contained at all.
        After that 9 hours fuelrod fire everything must have melted down
        and through all floor of the building into ground.
        So as you wrote above "If there had been a full release we would have known about it…" Well China Syndrome is no full release.
        That there was cited "a sheen of water" later on the pool again, it was just a decision by respönsible personnel to tell the media.
        It was a wrong decision as it would have been much less harmful to tell the truth.


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    • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

      Great thoughts, but 33% of all those humans now living in Japan will die from cancer and this already very high number of cancer deaths shall increase exponentially in the future, since we/they through this Nuclear Meltdown Event has/have unleashed more invisible, odorless and tasteless mutagenic radioactive technology onto their Island and now all over the rest of the world.

      There are no cures for cancer and now the cancer diagnostic numbers will necessarily climb world wide. This is the direct result expected from such dire poisoning events!

      Better shut down all the rest of these "Nuclear Power Rattle Traps" around the world or more will die horrible disease filled deaths… :(


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      • Socrates

        Obewanspeaks,

        I agree that the precautionary principle should always be employed in matters of punlic health. There are to many combinations and permutations of failure modes, human error, computer viruses, terrorit attacks, drug use, in other words – Murphy's Law on steroids. Using Pascal's laws of probability are impossible because there are too many unknowns and unknowables. The best assessment is that, historically, there have been many meltdowns, many were covered up. That data suggests that a meltfown or two will always be happening somewhere. Bill Gates would use smaller reactors to counter this so the magnitude of each would be less. This might help if continuous low-dose exposure did not cause disease or mutations, a false assumption.

        Insurance companies and investment banks will not underwrite the risk and operators demand almost total legal immunity. The weapons program is the biggest justification.


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        • We Not They Finally

          Bill Gates wanting to use ANY reactors is distressing. Anyone wanting any NPP's henceforth is distressing.


          Report comment

        • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

          So, I guess based on the weapons scenarios in the future as we continue to arm up as the primary reason for this failed "Nuclear Technology Application Worldwide" meaning that then we are reaching the end game.

          The end game is one where your own population is already dying and has no hope of ever recovering from the varied diseased onslaught caused by the original technology that was supposedly created to save you.

          When a nuclear weapons country discovers that everyone is dying then there is no caution required and/or future to look forward too. Hope has turned into despair at all levels.

          This is when such a Nuclear Country in time will launch its entire Nuclear payload/inventory on the awaiting world as it passes judgement on all others responsible for its realtime pain and suffering.

          Gee, why wait, and shouldn't we just launch it all (Nuclear Inventory) and get this pending misery over for all the life still residing here on Planet Earth?

          That final manmade event or a 100% Inventory launch the will surely solve all of our potential future radiation contamination fears/problems.

          I guess its something like when you corner a raccoon or squirrel in your garage..they will bite!


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    • many moons

      "no apparent side effects?" Since 3/11 there have been many changes if you care to be observant. In my family alone, many cancers diagnosed, a deformed baby and a garden that produces immature, and mutated veggies.
      These events are all I need to understand the gravity of this nuclear disaster.


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  • TheBigPicture TheBigPicture

    Invisible poison, poisoning, is what nuclear is.


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  • santacruzelf

    Unfortunately, based on everything I've seen and read, I just don't see any likelihood of this being pulled off successfully. I hope it is, but it's actually kind of mindboggling to me that building 4 is even still standing. I was sure it was going to go down yesterday…
    Live your life well and enjoy it… plan as best you can, and be awesome to each other.


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  • 16Penny 16Penny

    Ever heard of beginners luck?


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    • Naha Johari

      In Chernobyl some soldiers and workers decided to sacrifice themselves (radiation poisoning & cancer) to get dangerous work done right. Repeating the same process thousands of times will not be so much beginners' luck as self-sacrifice of those who elect to use their experience until they can't go on anymore. Having a newbie in every few hours to try to do it right without experience is the stuff that guarantees global catastrophe, add to it recruitment dishonesty, falsification of records, yakuza predation…

      Question is: who should rightly sacrifice themselves for the good of all?

      Should it be General Electric/Atomics who knowingly sold faulty reactors bound to fail in an earthquake zone? Is it the retired & active senators who accepted money to be salesmen, arm wrestlers & advocates of mankind's greatest folly? Is it their crony Japanese politicians past & present? Is it Tepco & other heavy industry zaibatsus who have been screwing up & obfuscating for decades? Is it US military & Japanese SDF personnel sacrificing themselves for their leaders' compounded screw ups? Is it the Japanese people who have been subject to the horrors of nuclear bombardment, then lied to into consent on a crazy moneymaking scheme of building 55+12 reactors on a seismically active archipelago?

      Not easy choices in an environment where remote controlled robotics won't work as the radiation will cook computer components & human organs alike.


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      • Sickputer

        NJ writes: "In Chernobyl some soldiers and workers decided to sacrifice themselves…"

        SP: 99% or more of the heroic 800,000 Soviet Liquidators didn't get to "decide". They were conscripted soldiers, miners, construction workers, and drivers. They had orders to work at Chernobyl and if you disobeyed then you went to a gulag or maybe a firing squad.

        Modern "civilized" governments like Japan and the US don't have the iron fist power of the former Soviet Union. Many countries still do (Russia, China, North Korea, and scores more). If a triple meltdown happens in those countries the worker response will be more along the lines of Chernobyl.


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        • Naha Johari

          I dig you loud and clear Sickputer… To prevent unit 4 from burning uncontrollably after the next major earthquake, rod removal has to be done right thousands of times manually. Careless handling will achieve what the whole operation was designed to prevent.

          Japan is not the DPRK so no capital punishment by nuclear radiation of death row inmates properly trained to manually move these fuel rods. No nuclear engineer or salesperson will sacrifice him/herself to save millions of others. Every one with a political and financial stake in this wants to blame everybody else or tell us there is no problem, continue to be in power and continue to make money selling the same nuclear technology even to 'allied states' with serious earthquake risks like Turkey.

          If applied science is our panacea then it has let us down as there are no radiation-hardened robots or drones that can do this right for us. And all this fuss over unit 4 may turn out to be a Tepco PR distraction from the even more serious problem of reactor 1.

          There are so many theories of the net effect if the Japanese fail to deal with every failing bit of FDNPP: localised to Fukushima, localised to Honshu, localised to Japan, Pacific rim spread, worldwide spread… No one in power is really taking responsibility. It is such a political hot potato, but unlike the debate over climate change which if indeed true still allows us to adapt to it, we cannot biologically adapt to an environment poisoned by radioactivity.


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      • SS4U SS4U

        guaranteed it will not be the elite who sacrifices. not a chance.


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      • VanneV anne

        The liquidators did not have a choice. Their political system did not allow choice. They were ordered to do the work, and if they had not done it, they would have been shipped to a gulag in the frozen northwest or just summarily executed. They were probably even less educated about the dangerous consequences of radiation exposure than people of today. The nuclear industry keeps being disingenuous about the dangers of radiation.


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  • CodeShutdown CodeShutdown

    hold on, "Unit 4 at the plant contains an alarming 10 times as much caesium-137 as was at Chernobyl, experts say"

    well an alarming 10 x chernobyl sounds better than an alarming 4,277 tons of nuclear fuel which means that there is almost 24 times more nuclear fuel than Chernobyl.

    And that sounds much better than Dr. Strohm who reports that Fukushima has 12,000 times the radiation contained inside of the reactors and spent fuel pools, compared to Chernobyl.

    But this sounds much worse than 135 tons of spent fuel in SFP4 mentioned by Gregory Jaczko (who said it lost its cooling water), which is only 3/4 the Chernobyl reactors which had about 180 tons.

    Certainly less alarming then U.S. Energy Department data; a total of 11,138 spent fuel assemblies containing 336 million curies (~1.2 E+19 Bq) of radioactivity. About 134 million curies is Cesium-137 — roughly 85 times the amount of Cs-137 released at the Chernobyl accident as estimated by the U.S. National Council on Radiation Protection (NCRP)

    but this doesnt sound as bad as three trillion lethal doses already released…..does it?

    Cmon experts, lets get our facts straight for once, you lose credibility


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    • mairs mairs

      Excellent post, CodeShutdown.


      Report comment

    • Naha Johari

      Good point. Only way to go is a politically independent observer not beholden to either the pro-nuclear industry camp or the anti-nuclear camp.

      Ideological posturing, obfuscation or exaggeration will not save us from the worst case scenario.


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    • KDM KDM

      Maybe the 10x as much as Chernobyl is what's left after all the fires. Seriously some of the original amount is gone, who wants to guess next?


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      • We Not They Finally

        Except for the part about that it is obviously getting exponentially worse every time we look. Not even counting that MOST of the dangerous radionuclides do not just go away — they have scary-long half-lives. Plus bio-accumulation, genetic damage, and damage worse down through the generations. Oh, and that it is all cumulative. Oh, and internal emitters which keep doing internal damage to the human body.

        What you have is called "denial," not reassurance.


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      • Salemone Salemone

        Stock, Here is the actual quote from the actual article. The quote above at the beginning of this thread was shortened..and made what was said confusing.

        "The radiation emitted from all these rods, if they are not continually cool and kept separate, would require the evacuation of surrounding areas including Tokyo," he said. "Because of the radiation at the site the 6,375 rods in the common storage pool could not be continuously cooled; they would fission and all of humanity will be threatened, for thousands of years."

        From ALL these rods. Makes more sense now.


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    • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

      Code always writes very nice code! :)

      The world has already changed and it has not and will not be anything biological life will like in the future.

      The bottom line: is that these "sitting stars" that have been unleashed on this planet can never ever be turned off. We humans do not have the technology in existence to ever turn these searing fake radioactive spewing Nuclear Rattle Traps (burning sitting stars) off. :(

      Is the above article sensationalized? Not at all, since we have already fried most of the Pacific Ocean and what/where ever this Nuclear Radiation Contamination poison goes in its travels in the future.

      The reason things are so quite via governments etc. is that they know what they have done and they know the consequences of their actions and the massive negative impact this event will have on all our biological futures. Bad news and reality is not where they want any of our minds to go.

      The planet has just been screwed by government/science collusion, and yes, it will get worse!


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    • unincredulous unincredulous

      So we're good then, right?

      Time for a round of golf.


      Report comment

      • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

        Golf + Drinks…means..Party On!


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        • unincredulous unincredulous

          I can't really golf, but I can drink. I don't do either very well; I should have been a Tepco executive. I was kind of thinking about Obama, golfing away while the government shutdown. Or W Bush, golfing and fishing. I was just in one of those zen moments when I realized all of the qualifications I have to be successful. I am not much good at anything…


          Report comment

          • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

            I used to do both with excess but not anymore. Presidents have very little to do with what a country does as they are controlled by others behind the scenes and greed now controls our entire world.

            This a very well groomed and taught educated reality that now permeates our entire world that surrounds us.. :(


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            • unincredulous unincredulous

              I think you are right. I wish we could vote for a big, fluffy, stuffed bear for president. The kids would like it, and we wouldn't have to listen to a president read "MY PET GOAT," again.

              Then again, I would be willing to provide the voice, and receive the salary and health benefits. I think I could receive a double dip as the voice for Tepco. Triple dip as the voice for the new Japanese PM, Fluffy Godzilla. I draw the line at Barney. He can be vise president.


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    • bo bo

      code… I just woke up… what did I miss.. what happened to your one (only) eyeball?!


      Report comment

      • One eye?

        Did someone lose vision in one eye?


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        • CodeShutdown CodeShutdown

          if your eye had a 100 meter optic nerve that you could stretch out to length and look back at your body, where would you be, at the eye, or the distant body, illumined in the gentle glow of pink and green radioisotopes?

          What happened is Mickey read when his eye became single he could leave his body but it seems to have worked the other way round.

          Actually, Im waiting to hear about the lab guy who worked for Socrates (somewhere on this forum) who exited by suicide after measuring high radioactivity in childrens fingernails.


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          • bo bo

            Omg that question is going to haunt me all day !! Lol

            When I was in second grade I heard from a Hiroshima survivor of seeing people's eyeballs pop out if their skulls but indeed the nerve would still be attached. I kept wondering what the world looks like then.

            I figured I'd mention that so this thread is officially still on-topic..

            about Socrates' lab guy…that is crazy, and sad. I would like an update on that too.


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            • Socrates

              Go back to the original post to see details in my response. Yes, sad indeed. I posted the response this morning.

              My father was a physician trained at Penn in reproductive science. We living in Nevada during the 40s and 50s. The testing was stupid as was the uranium mining.

              I studied genetics at UCLA for a while. I learned that x-rays and ionizing radiation cause mutations, including cancer, even heart disease such as Chernobyl heart. We are entering an On the Beach situation, abeit, a slow motion one. Nuclear posses a bigger threat in case of war… but the chemicals and the radiation exposures are "industrial endotoxins" -if you will that will kill all bacteria in the Petri dish long before the nutrient augur runs out.

              Did (does) the government cover this all up? The pathology doesn't lie, only those with "opinions." The regulators are always looking for friendly opinions which, by the way, are for sale to industry and government.


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            • bo bo

              Thank you for the response, Socrates. And yes, I did read the detailed story about your labmate. I think we can all relate to having been in darkness, even without having been in the trenches and frontlines as you and your labmate seems to have been in. Nowadays sometimes I think if it really ever gets to that point where I feel I have nothing to live for, I might just apply for a job at Fukushima. Before I die I want to bust inside SPF 4 and see with my own eyes what is or isn't inside it.

              'If you voted for Romney, you voted for nuclear. If you voted for Obama, you voted for nuclear.' I agree. we truly live under an Orwellian nightmare regime currently, and yet most people are still unaware.


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              • bo bo

                Btw in regards to the Hiroshima eyeball story..
                I didn't mean any disrespect to survivors. Thinking back it's just amazing how a seven year old mind processed the horror of hiroshima. It's the type of story parents nowadays protect their kids from hearing because it would give them nightmares.

                There is some footage in color that U.S. military took of survivors, but having heard stories after stories and also sketches done by artists, Ialways got the Iimpression that those footages were also propaganda. They rounded up some of the more tame victims with some 'burns' and lined them up. It's still shocking and awful however it gives a misleading impression.


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                • bo bo

                  Ad kids my brother and I were the only ones laughing when the movie 'The Day After' came out, we just couldn't get over how tame hollywood's vision of the day after an atomic bomb was, and the whole movie seemed comical… and I know a lot of my friends here ended up having nightmares after having watched that movie.


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    • VanneV anne

      Why use sophistry to route the debate to off-topic nonsense?


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    • VanneV anne

      They are obviously measuring different things. SFP #4 is different than all the nuclear fuel, live and waste, in 6 reactors and a common spent fuel.

      The less radioactive plutonium at Chernobyl is different than all the radioactive plutonium in all the fuel at Fukushima which contained MOX in addition.

      Cesium 137 is only one of the radionuclides out of almost 2000 released by Fukushima even though almost all of the other radionuclides are never measured.

      Some experts are measuring what has already been released, and some are measuring the potential release.

      Add in the lying reports from TEPCO as to what has been released.


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      • VanneV anne

        Code, you are the one with no credibility, not the experts.


        Report comment

        • No Anne, the topic drifted off to the elephant in the room. That is you can talk about a triple melt down all day long but the underlying problem is those with the power to stop it are not. And under reporting the danger. Don't want to spend the money. The political mechanism has failed and the general population is no better then a field of Beef waiting to be slaughtered with no say in their future. Sure collectively they could push the fence down, but the grass is green and the day is sunny so why worry?


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        • CodeShutdown CodeShutdown

          hahaha, so right Anne! Thanks for that cold washcloth in the face, I hope it makes me stop my useless posts. I only wish the expert opinions would converge. You couldnt have missed that many experts say there is no danger, no deaths even, while others say the opposite.


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      • CodeShutdown CodeShutdown

        anne, to my defense, I feel you have made my point. Radiation release has been lied about since the beginning, in many different ways. I didnt intend to discredit the likes of Dr. Strohm or Dr Scampa. To the contrary, its usually the ones who underplay the disaster that are obfuscating.


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      • HoTaters HoTaters

        There were new MOX assemblies in SFP #4, waiting to be loaded into Reactor 3, which was being readied for its second load of MOX fuel.


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  • KDM KDM

    It would be interesting to hear the kamikaze pep talk these guys are going to receive before the first removal attempt. Who in their right mind would want this job? That's what scares me.


    Report comment

  • wetpwcas1 wetpwcas1

    Bones: You hit nail on the head with the right words. I will stop there. This is no game, it's real & very bad!


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  • Sol Man

    The threat was never in the future. The releases have increased.


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  • unincredulous unincredulous

    Reporting live from here: g'night. Thanks for putting up with me. I have finally grown weary. The stress relief of talking with someone has been great. Sweet dreams, it's almost quarter til five and we are still here.


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  • Wooster

    This previous Enenews post is worth a re-read as we get nearer towards the removal of fuel rods:

    ..top spent-fuel pools expert Mr. Robert Alvarez, former Senior Policy Adviser to the Secretary and Deputy Assistant Secretary for National Security and the Environment at the U.S. Department of Energy said:

    "1,231 irradiated spent fuel rods [are] in pool No. 4, which contain roughly 37 million curies (~1.4E+18 Becquerel) of long-lived radioactivity…

    If an earthquake or other event were to cause this pool to drain this could result in a catastrophic radiological fire involving nearly 10 times the amount of Cs-137 released by the Chernobyl accident…

    ..a total of 11,138 spent fuel assemblies are being stored at the Dai-Ichi site.. They contain .. roughly 85 times the amount of Cs-137 released at the Chernobyl accident

    ..we can grasp what 85 times more Cesium-137 than the Chernobyl would mean. It would destroy the world environment and our civilization. This is not rocket science, nor does it connect to the pugilistic debate over nuclear power plants. This is an issue of human survival.."

    http://enenews.com/nuclear-expert-fukushima-spent-fuel-85-times-cesium-released-chernobyl-destroy-world-environment-civilization-issue-human-survival-former-adviser


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  • FXofTruth

    Hmmmmmm…since the "experts" have ALWAYS been talking about the looming disaster for Mankind and they have the ear of the Governments around the World (usually at some level), why no worldwide effort from ALL the countries to take control of this situation?

    A disaster that is being allowed to STAY an expanding disaster.
    It like a car pile up on the highway but, no one cleans it off the highway…and the cars continue to crash into the original accident creating a LARGER accident! Is there even a .001% of the World population concerned that this is a genocidal threat to Mankind?

    None of this makes sense. We are talking about this going into it's 3rd year and all the efforts and time spent have done nothing but expand the problem. Now, the Pacific Ocean is dying off by the 1,000s of miles. But, no one on top seems to care. Abe acts like it a minor problem that can be just brushed away.

    Something much, much bigger is happening here that includes this "disaster" as part of a greater plan to affect things on a worldwide scale….which it has been!


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  • hbjon hbjon

    An important tool for the removal of spent fuel will be a precision saw that can cut through welded together material and tangled debris.

    If underwater cameras cannot be operated, the job is thought to be impossible. So, the question remains. Are there video cameras that function in those pools?

    If not, divers will be required to operate the saws and dredges manually. It was reported that the lead underwear has finally been developed and perfected.

    Cold weather will be necessary as cold SFP coolant and containment will reduce the amount of water that needs to be used in the removal process. This cuts down on weight. CO2 and nitrogen will also be available in case of emergency.


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      • We Not They Finally

        Either that, or it is not plus-ANYTHING. This isn't a construction project. No one can get near it physically. A saw against hot nuclear fuel rods (impossible in the first place) might do as much harm as good. CO2 and nitrogen available HOW and for WHAT?

        You're plussing WHAT? That the Teamsters just go in with hammers and saws? Or that lead underwear might protect what people really "value," as opposed to hearts, lungs and brains?


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    • jec jec

      Oh..and didn't we hear from TEPCO the 'technology' to remove fuel cells was "ho hum" very well known and used? LEAD underwear…don't think THAT is normal in most nuclear plants. Or is it?Rip saws, sawsalls you name it, sounds like a home renovation!!!


      Report comment

    • bo bo

      Divers !!!!??? I wonder who will be the unlucky one appointed to do this job…


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    • weeman

      I don't know if you can use a saw, the vibrations would be off great concern, especially since we have damaged fuel bundles?


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      • hbjon hbjon

        Meh, vibrations are no worries. How many broken drill bits do you think are sticking out of corium pancakes throughout the complex? Drill holes are where the coolant is able to draw heat away from the mass.

        Being fully submerged while wearing protective body suit and having a shield with thick lead-glass peep hole should protect against radiation. 1 person does the dredging, the other does the sawing.

        This job may use up a workers monthly radiation exposure allowance in just a few minutes. But, it needs to be done asap.


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  • hatrick penry

    UNIT 4!!! UNIT 4!!! OMG WERE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SCARY!!! SCARY!!! SCARY!!!

    Fear and Loathing on Fukushima Unit 4: http://hatrickpenryunbound.com/?p=3928

    Debunking ‘Alternative’ media disinformation on Fukushima Unit 4 Spent Fuel Pool:
    http://hatrickpenryunbound.com/?p=3876

    Something Wicked This Way Comes: The story of Plume-Gate, the world’s largest, provable cover-up:
    http://hatrickpenryunbound.com/?p=3683

    BEWARE OF HATRICK PENRY IMPERSONATORS!!!! I ALWAYS LINK TO RELEVENT INFORMATION FROM MY WEBSITE THAT COUNTERS THE 'OFFICIAL' STORY

    KEVIN BLANCH, MRSMILKEYTHECLOWN1, SHAZZAM1971 AND HATRICK PENRY
    JOIN US ON YOUTUBE


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    • VanneV anne

      Please look at the info below the "Submit Comment" icon:
      "6) Links to personal websites will still be allowed, but limited to no more than two links per post. If not, it may get deleted."


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    • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

      hatrick what is now happening/going on in Japan via this ongoing Nuclear Disaster will never be turned off…ever! :(


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    • soern

      "UNIT 4!!! UNIT 4!!! OMG WERE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SCARY!!! SCARY!!! SCARY!!!"
      Hi HP, your own documents show, there is not much left to be scared about at sfp4. All content of sfp4 which did not burn away, directly must have molten down through all levels of #4 building straight into earth since a bid more than two years ago.
      As i learned today by stock, to cool molten fuel down and stop fissioning, you have to cut/divide it to small pieces and cool it with water. This obviously was impossible to manage at any time after sfp4 burned. So molten fuel is always fissioning, getting hotter and hotter and melting through everything like steel, concrete, granite…. so melted fuel follows gravity only.
      There is nothing left in sfp4 and when you take away the pool covering towel construction and would look down into the pool, you would find, you had a free look directly down into some ground tube hole. If somebody wants to save the fuel, follow the tube please. What a bad theatre.


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      • VanneV anne

        We may know what documents are reporting. But how much is true in the documents? That is unknown. Maybe the SFP #4 is empty. Maybe this is why TEPCO won't let any American firms in to see it and help with their technology. Or maybe it is because there is still a lot of very damaged fuel they don't want anyone to see.

        But then how could there have been 3 explosions and multiple fires if nothing is there? And I saw with my own eyes the glowing of a criticality in SFP #4 after the NRC documents were written. And we saw tons of steam released on many, many, nights.


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  • enoughalready45 enoughalready45

    Zion, Illinois USA
    Also happening in November is the start of the transfer of 1,010 tons of irradiated fuel rods into dry cask storage from the now shutdown Zion nuclear facility that sits on the shoreline of Lake Michigan just north of Chicago. Some of the fuel rods were damage and were repaired but have to be stored in special way in the casks because of their damage. (I do not know how they were damaged.)

    There are 6,260,000 people living in the surrounding counties in Illinois and Wisconsin. Those of us that know about the transfers do not believe the NRC is enough of a watchdog on the process and the company performing the transfers which will take two shifts of workers going every day for a year.

    Do we want the waste moved out of the spent fuel pools? Yes, but we are not sure that it is being done in the safest way possible. A real lack of transparency here on safety issues and what the plan is if something goes wrong.


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    • jec jec

      From looking at old reports, Zion had a fire in tranformer area..not fuel rod areas. But nothing of fuel rod damage or repair. The former owners.shut the plant and just handed it off for the rest of us to close and dispose of rods. Billion plus in costs…so nuclear saves us dollars? NOPE. Only kills us..


      Report comment

  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    Despite indication that the fuel in 4 has burned many times..
    We are all..at the afternoon movie show (suspense)..we take our seats….glowing snacks in hand.
    It's going to be along movie..bring your friends and neighbors.
    Perhaps forever..humans have no progressive thought process.
    Being led into a state of perpetual wonder and fear won't be hard.

    It's easier than getting them to understand..the damn thing exploded..some portion of the spent fuel burned..what and if anything is in the racks is leaking..and due to corrosion warping "etc..can not be removed.

    The building they are building next to 4 ..is a nice ruse.
    Sometimes ..I think the real experiment is at Daini..

    Site Photographs of Fukushima Daini Nuclear Power Station

    http://photo.tepco.co.jp/en/date/2011/201109-e/110906-01e.html

    Fukushima *DAINI* reactor has broken containment vessel, says Tokyo Professor — Probably caused by quake, not tsunami
    Jan 8 2012

    http://enenews.com/just-in-fukushima-daini-reactor-has-broken-containment-vessel-says-tokyo-professor-probably-caused-by-quake-not-tsunami


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  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    (cont)..

    New data shows Fukushima Daini nuke plant prepared to vent steam from all four reactors — Feared that containment vessels might be damaged by pressure

    "On the day of the disaster, the Nos. 1, 2 and 4 reactors suffered damage to cooling pumps, the data showed. It was feared that the containment vessels might be damaged as pressure built up inside."

    http://enenews.com/new-data-shows-fukushima-daini-nuke-plant-prepared-to

    Tepco checking for damage inside reactor at Fukushima DAINI
    Oct 2 2012

    http://enenews.com/tepco-checking-damage-inside-reactor-fukushima-daini

    Reports: “Something may have happened at Fukushima II Nuclear Power Plant” after M7.3 quake — Tepco “did not know cause of pressure rise
    Dec 7 2012

    http://enenews.com/reports-it-looks-something-may-have-happened-at-fukushima-ii-nuclear-power-plant-after-m7-3-quake-tepco-did-not-know-cause-of-pressure-rise

    There is a reason that Daini..they don't want Daini considered for shut down.
    They think they can repair..but they are having the same type groundwater problems..IMHO.

    Sorry ..OT.


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  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    Ad homimen..ya ya ya.
    I've been trashing Yale since I was 12 years old..
    Not sorry…


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  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    (typo) Ad hominem…

    Tony Blair on Faith and Globalization at Yale : New World Order ( NWO )
    Dec 11 2009

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbmgvhqqEs4


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  • patb2009

    why not mix up a gel containing boron and lead powder, as each fuel bundle is pulled out, have this material pumped into the bundle, to both supress neutron flux and increase shielding, pull the bundle free and then drop the bundle into a lead lined acket carrier and pump more gel in.

    Take these bundles and put them into a larger carrier on the ground and transport them off site.


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    • hbjon hbjon

      why not mix up a gel containing boron and lead powder? Working with these materials has never been easy. It is a marvel of science that a fuel rod was developed that could contain the material and dissipate the heat properly.

      What will eventually happen with the materials and substances that are solidified corium is that it must be taken out of the environment and put into a smaller containment that is able to circulate coolant within a closed loop.

      That means that a material impervious to the effects of highly corrosive and toxic elements must be used for encapsulating the reactive and radioactive substances. At the same time, allowing heat to be taken away fairly efficiently. Gels with boron, lead, and sand, DO NOT transfer heat effectively.

      Imo, they will dredge the sawed off pieces of fuel and debris into many separate containments that have a lot of surface area. Imagine a sewer pipe that is 4 meters long and filled with corium pieces, boron, glass marbles, ball bearings, fuel rods, and salt. The pipes can be positioned within a large rectangular containment with circulating coolant.

      Getting the corium, rods, and debris into the pipe is the tricky part. The filler material must space hot debris within the pipe to prevent criticality. Space, the final frontier, and it's important to keep plenty of it between fuel pellets, plutonium, uranium, stuff like that.


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      • We Not They Finally

        You are still with seeing this as A CONSTRUCTION PROJECT? Just send in the hard hats with saws?

        You're undoubtedly more knowledgeable with construction projects than I am. It's just not applicable. Not going to happen. "Sawed-off pieces of fuel and debris"? How can you even BELIEVE that?


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        • hbjon hbjon

          Mozart didn't consider the talent level of the musicians when he produced his timeless masterpieces. He simply knew what must be done.


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          • We Not They Finally

            Mozart just channeled. It's not analogous. He would not have had a clue how to fix this. He was just listening and writing it down.

            People (not just you) keep looking for known human analogues. They don't want to think that this is a non-human process that could indiscriminately destroy us all.

            Splitting the atom in the first place seems to have been sort of demonic. It's leading to the UN-coherence of organic life on the planet. We can look throughout our history for human/constructive/progressive analogues, but unclear if they are even there. Pandora's Box is no myth anymore. We seem to be here.


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  • unincredulous unincredulous

    Someone in the 1 percent must have developed a technology that absorbs or neutralizes radiation, some way to make the earth livable again after all the other 99 percent have gone extinct. And the DNA samples are all stored safely away for a Noah's Ark scenario. Surely it must be so, or these powerful people would not tolerate this destruction of the earth's biosphere.

    Are they being manipulated by some super intelligent alien race, perhaps the beings responsible for the technology that built the large, unexplainable precise stone structures around the planet?

    Or is the one percent bent on suicide, or just plain stupid?

    We better figure out the radioactive mass particle degaussing thing or find the degauss button. It must be here somewhere.


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    • Socrates

      In Planet of the Apes, a trip to the future reveals that the humans were smart enough to blow it all up because they could play with nuvlear fire.

      By the time any aliens could master space travel, they have split the atom since Pu is the only way to, at least according to NASA. Long before then, wars would have killed their planets, too, even by accident.

      The apes knew that man was the bad seed because, given an infinite chances, would only extinct himself through nuvlear wars, and, in this case, multiple Fukushimas.

      Man seeks domination by increasingly sophisticated weapons or something too cheap to meter. Apes don't. Apes have wisdom in their stupidity.

      Smart aliens would get this vib and stay away….


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    • We Not They Finally

      unincredulous, have had many of the same thoughts. Otherwise homicide also equaling suicide makes no sense. But who could reverse already-done GENETIC damage? Nonetheless, there are probably alot of "Dr. Strangloves" out there.

      Most interesting is one Dr. Radha Roy (now deceased) who invented a device that would shoot out neutrons at radioactive plutonium, morphing it into non-radioactive lead. There is no way to google any patents, so it may be that it was a good invention, but simply STOLEN by "the evil ones." (That does happen!!)

      Possibly some VERY short-sighted people thought that could be protective to them personally. But once the whole world's ecology is in play, ALL bets are off. That over-used but probably accurate word "over-reach."

      A possible evil-aliens-inhabit-humans scenario (since this is NOT comprehensible human behavior) is interesting. Husband and I are sci-fi buffs and sometimes wonder if there is a hidden inter-galactic war for control of Earth between good aliens and bad aliens. But that can get quite diversionary! And the problems right at hand are crushing.

      We just know that there are hidden truths there somewhere. Ancient texts of many cultures point to humankind having done this before. And apparently they/we learned nothing….


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      • End of the Road

        I had never heard of Radha Roy! Thanks for sending me into
        Googleland (saved me from doing laundry).

        I was able to find the following. I'm unfamiliar with the source so not sure if the info is wholly trustworthy.

        http://nuclearwaste-theroyprocess.blogspot.com/2005/12/to-all-late-dr.html

        "Dr. Roy was offered millions of dollars for the patent rights.
        NOT to develop it…but to shelve it. Dr. Roy refused. Then Ronald Reagan signed the 1982 Nuclear Waste Policy Act which made "geologic isolation" (burial) of nuclear waste, federal policy, putting viable alternatives in scientific limbo.
        Now after wasting hundreds of billions of tax payers money on junk science, nuclear waste has leaked into our precious ground water."


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    • VanneV anne

      I really don't believe that the one percent have technology that neutralizes radiation. I've read that they believe in reincarnation. But there's no evidence for that. And if all there is left is a cockroach, is being reincarnated into a cockroach so wonderful.

      They just have watched too many sci fi movies.

      Oh, they maybe can afford vitamin-C intravenous infusions, etc. But that only prolongs life. People still die.

      They are just completely delusional and narcissistic and don't care what is left after they die.

      Myths about neutralizing radiation are created by the nuclear industry because they are addicted to nuclear technology and want to justify that addiction.


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  • This could be the degauss button…but we have to figure out how to push it.

    See http://news.stanford.edu/news/2010/august/sun-082310.html

    "…the researchers found a recurring pattern of 33 days…All of the evidence points toward a conclusion that the sun is "communicating" with radioactive isotopes on Earth…"


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    • Socrates

      Nice find about neutrinos from the sun and degaussing…

      How about this: #4 was built by Hitachi who is partnered with GE to build reactors. Together they develop laser/plasma separation processes for extraction. #4 might have been operating reprocessing (neutron enrichment) of spent fuel rods to increase their fissile uranium content prior to extraction.

      Prior to the quake even, a high-powered electromagnetic wave traveled through the earth and knocked out power to number 4. This caused the virus protection to go down allowing the Stuxnet virus to wipe out computer controls…

      This activity was secret because it was proprietary and perhaps illegal. 1, 2, and 3 were operating. Questions remain about the status of 5 and 6. (5 is a Toshiba).

      9 Richter events are preceded by measurable electromagnetic energy. This information would be helpful in predicting large earthquakes but migh reveal that MOPs are unsafe at any speed because you cannot move them out of the path of a huge seismic event other than not building them to begin with.


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  • ftlt

    MOLLY!!!! BAR THE DOOR!!!!

    This will be beyond interesting…

    I do look at children differently nowadays – with a host of confused thoughts – most of tinged in sadness for them…


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    • zardoz2012 zardoz2012

      I'm glad I didn't bring any children into this bizarro world.


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    • We Not They Finally

      But a lot of children also seem to be stronger, more self-reliant. People really DON'T CONTROL the caliber of humans born into the world (the lords of karma, so to speak, would be a longer and OT discussion), just the breeding process. So while the population as a whole seems to be deteriorating, some of the kids seem quite into higher intelligence. We have to hope that they will succeed where the current crop has so failed.


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  • jump-ball jump-ball

    OT (where do earthquakes go?): 3rd in the series of 'aftershocks' following Friday's 7.1 mag. off Honshu, this one 5.6, 3 hours ago:

    http://www.emsc-csem.org/Earthquake/?filter=no&min_mag=5&view=1


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  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    PS..If not labeled above..Apache Crown Dancer


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  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    Also..meant for off topic…remove if you wish.. admin..sorry.


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  • Robin of Loxley

    People, please get a grip. Geez.

    What professional experience does this Charles Perrow have? This so-called nuclear 'expert' quoted in the article is a SOCIOLOGY professor with no nuclear expertise or qualifications at all. And of course the Chinese paper that published the article conveniently forgot to mention that.

    According to Arnie Gundersen, if the fuel rods break or touch upon removal, there most likely will NOT be a fire or explosion. He claims there will probably be small localized releases of radiation. The plant would most likely have to be evacuated for a few days, then work would resume again. Just remember, fuel rod removal is his expertise. And he has 40+ years experience in the field.

    Posters on this site have really gone off the deep end lately. This is the main reason I stopped posting my food and soil spectrometry test results here. I think most of you want this to be the end of the world, always claiming the worst-case scenarios. I feel so sorry for many of you. Living in such fear every day of your lives. Slowing becoming paranoid. Living in a prison of fear and paranoia. Feeling like you have nothing more to live for. So sad…


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    • Robin of Loxley

      Things that will probably make you sick or kill you first way before low levels of radiation will:

      - Not getting enough exercise and sleep

      - Smoking tobacco and drinking alcohol

      - Eating GMO, pesticides, antibiotics, and growth hormones

      - Eating a meat and dairy-based diet

      - Eating junk food and packaged foods high in sugar, fat, salt, preservatives, and chemicals

      - Car or other accidents

      - Stress from job, marriage, or finances (debt)

      - Stress from worrying about small amounts of radiation


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      • Robin of Loxley

        - And of course long-term exposure to EMF and RF radiation, which is practically everywhere now.


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        • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

          Sure is and you can't hide anymore from any of it and/but that there manmade "Not of This Earth" radioactive isotopes that do not belong here, well those little buggers I would worry about, since they are DNA scramblers and their main goal is to scramble your genetic codes leading your body directly towards cancer and multiple diseases.


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          • Robin of Loxley

            I'm not saying that ingesting low levels of radioactive isotopes is completely harmless. Of course it's all cumulative. But what I am saying is at such low levels that most in North America will be exposed to will probably be nothing compared to the above list I made. But if one doesn't have the proper equipment to test their food, I would still be wary of eating any seafood from the Pacific. It's the easiest ways to avoid ingesting low levels of radiation. That's just common sense.

            Most people's everyday lives are boring and monotonous. I think many people just want to be excited and afraid of something. They like it. It's addictive. It's the adrenalin rush. They just don't realize it. And of course this site accommodates that fear and adrenaline addiction by cherry-picking the absolute worst-case scenarios in each article headline. ;)


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    • Naha Johari

      Robin,

      Charles Perrow is indeed a sociologist. If he is to be dismissed as a sensationalist or alarmist who doesn't know what he is talking about then the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists should be censured for giving him room to publish a piece entitled "Nuclear Denial: From Hiroshima to Fukushima." Then again maybe they do want a public debate, or pave the way for his character assassination.

      With regards to Arnie Gundersen, someone using the name of atomicinsights.com is claiming that he lies about Fukushima.

      This decades-old issue is so politicized, emotionally-charged & loaded with military-industrial stockholder & lobbyist interest that it is going exactly the same way as the climate change debate.

      Character assassinations & well-funded media debunking assaults will be deployed. Most people like me are neither nuclear scientists nor dedicated anti-nuclear activists, but ordinary folk who can't help but feel very afraid for their children's future. I hope you continue to share your own research here.


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      • Robin of Loxley

        I'll believe what Arnie Gundersun says way before I'll believe what some sociologist professor nuclear 'hobbyist' says. He's quite anti-nuclear. And NOT a black and white extremist. But if something he says doesn't fit into the anti-nuclear groups' agenda, they brand him a nuke industry shill. Only worst-case scenarios are accepted. Lol.


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    • bo bo

      Ummmm yes I often do feel like I have nothing to live for. Often depressed and paranoid yes. I unfortunately haven't unlocked life's secrets like you. I really wish you would return to enenews with your expensive spectometry so you can guide us out of the darkness into the light, Robin…. Oh wait, right, I'm not worthy because I'm a sad person that wishes tomorrow to be the end of the world. Wow I didn't think it was possible to feel crappier than I usually do… but I feel really crappy now. :(


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      • Robin of Loxley

        I'll try to ignore your sarcasm.

        There are many things you can do to take control of your life. Happiness is a state of mind. You must find it within yourself. You are not helpless.


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        • bo bo

          I apologize for being rude.

          I'm just being honest though, it is definitely a struggle to stay upbeat ( although actually on a superficial basis I doubt anybody would guess this is going on inside me).

          You sound like you genuinely do have a positive view, but if you want depressed people to change to optimism from pessimism, the worst thing is to beat them up for being down. Makes them feel crappier.


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          • bo bo

            Obe has always been uplifting!
            He brightened my day when we shared knowledge about tardigrades and I had so much fun that day looking up pics.
            I love enenews… I understand you come with a ray of light..
            But for me ray of light happens when I share things with others, the dark and the light.
            I'm very proud and upbeat about enenews, everybody here, with all its drama.


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    • Robin of Loxley

      I knew my positive comments wouldn't be popular. I tried to bring a ray of hope into this dark place, but of course people don't want to hear anything positive or hopeful. Only negative thinking and fear is permitted I guess. It was worth a try. I'll bow out now. Please resume with the usual despair and hopelessness.


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      • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

        Why would you call the seekers of truths.. a dark place?


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        • Robin of Loxley

          I wouldn't call this site 'the seekers of truth'. I would call it a meeting place to reinforce and reaffirm one's set beliefs. Some (like you) do want the truth. The problem with sites like these is that ideas become so ingrained, extreme and one-sided that it becomes almost like a religious cult. Group think. A belief… regardless of the facts. Those who question anything that goes against the beliefs are tarred and feathered. Branded as being in denial, or a nuclear shill. I, as you, also want the truth. But as you know, the truth is usually not black and white. As with most things in life, there is a huge gray area. But unfortunately sites like these seem to focus mostly on the black… the worst-case scenarios. The adrenaline rush 'shock factor'. I think a lot of people here hate their lives (for whatever reasons), and want this world to end. Will they admit that's the reason? Probably not.


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          • Lion76 Lion76

            what are the "positives" we should be focusing on? and who is "we" anyway? This site collects media links, users are free to post whatever. Most just READ. Most do not "generalize" and the silent majority is gathering all the information "they" feel comfortable with branding as "truth" so just lay off the conspiratorial, holier than thou nonsense. No one is speaking for me but moi.


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            • Robin of Loxley

              If you cannot find any positives to focus on in your life, then I cannot help you. You must find it within, not without.


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            • bo bo

              Yes Lion76 – this robin guy misses your point here. I try to be respectful to most posters, even when I disagree. Even when I see some form of racism /bigotry here I try to argue back in a mostly respectful way. However every now and then there are posters here that barge in with this weird rethoric that rounds up all enenews members into this big collective 'YOU' and they simplify the discussion into 'YOU' ALL think this way, but 'I' think this!' Usually implied in this skewed rhetoric is somehow 'THEIR' idea is more special than 'ours', and 'we' are supposed to be grateful he/she graced 'us enewsers' with their presence – to these posters I tend not to be as respectful of what they have to say. Most of these types (although they come in diffrent shapes and sizes, each with a different pet theme) usually come with this drama: 'I'm quitting enenews. .. I'm quitting…I'm quitting now…!! does anybody hear me?!' ( but they keep coming back to post again – if 'we' are so lame, why do they even to make a post ?) These posters also often claim to be 'a ray of light' to the site, yet always leave this weird stench of negativity behind. Oh and also thrown in this rhetoric often is some beef against Anne…for whatever reason, who knows why. Robin had more intelligent things to say than most of the other posters with this weird theme, but nevertheless he leaves the same negative stench.


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          • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

            Well considering that no one else is covering this Nuclear Disaster Event like enenews currently, I would have to say that the seekers of truth are here. Now are some of the headlines sensationalized, yes. Is that a bad thing, maybe, maybe not. From what I have read about this technology it is bad stuff and does bad stuff to whomever is subjected to its fallout in any form or fashion and/or even through its current applications in the fields of medicine. Of course this recent event is/has yet to be played out on the world stage but some of the symptoms we are seeing already look pretty bad concerning this Nuclear Disaster.

            I for one do not believe it will be an ELE, but it will increase disease and cancer rates for millions around the globe. I think the basis of the ongoing argument is why are we still using and still promoting its use around the world if such facts are known? Is it so some guys and gals can run around the world showing and touting everyone with the biggest sticks? If this event is not an ELE event will the next one be? Will it be a Carrington Event that will take the rest of the 500 reactors out? Is this what we want for future generations and manmade created potentials?

            Bottom line: Is we are now playing with a fire that we can't extinguish and its burning everybody and anything in its path whether they want to play or not!


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      • bo bo

        I wonder if your positive comments generally aren't popular because they are somehow negative in nature. It's harder to be open to criticism when you feel like you are preached at.


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        • Robin of Loxley

          Maybe if I run around screaming 'This is an ELE event and we're all going to die!'

          Would that be considered positive and acceptable?


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          • bo bo

            No, that is not what I meant. You say you bring a ray of light of positivity, but there is a smugness and judgementalness basically saying (picture alicia silverstone in clueless here) 'sigh. You guys are sooooo lame ! (Rolls eyes) Now I remember why I never visit here anymore!'


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            • Robin of Loxley

              I didn't call anybody 'lame'. I just wanted to try and open people's eyes to the fact that things aren't quite bad as they seem, and there is still a lot to live for. But I guess that's not what people want to hear. Good luck to you.


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              • Jebus Jebus

                I think that your missing the point.
                The website is here because of Fukushima.
                There would be no reason otherwise.
                So given that, naturally, it is about Fukushima.
                Given the nuclear industries propensity for bias, I don't see it as a bad thing to err towards the worst case scenario. Over prepared is better than under prepared.
                Trying to drill down to one issue as an excuse for your generalizations of false alarms is narrow minded and ignores the many unique potentials of the Fukushima nuclear disaster that have many possible negative outcomes. Even if it stopped tommorrow, it would still be a disaster of multiple magnitudes beyond Chernobyl.
                No one knows what's really coming tomorrow.
                The overall forecast doesn't look very eco friendly…


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            • bo bo

              Sorry that didn't make any sense.. losing focus here…red sox just hit home run… I need to go enjoy life. Ha !


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    • VanneV anne

      What experience does Arnie have removing damaged fuel rods without the aid of a computer? What experience does Arnie have removing live fuel rods without using a computer? What experience does anyone have removing damaged fuel rods, damaged by 3 explosions and numerous hours of fire, and corroded by ocean salt water?


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  • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

    You mean the normal everyday way of human life..I got it! :)


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    • Robin of Loxley

      Hello Obi. My rant wasn't about you. ;)

      You've always had an upbeat and balanced attitude here. Please don't sink into the depths of hopeless despair like many have here.


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      • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

        Robin, you are right in so many ways, but when it comes to this radiation contamination we may agree to disagree since its only been 60 years now and the health of the entire world is getting worse and not better. I am not in despair for myself since I am already leaving and my concern is for those that come after you and I are gone. Its our 60 year created mess they will have to/must clean up! :(


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  • VanneV anne

    Charles Perrow has a number of publications:
    ost recent are displayed. More events & presentations »

    Predicting Reliability (Or How I Learned to Start Worrying and Fear the Nuclear Industry)
    April 21, 2011 Research Seminar
    John Downer, Charles Perrow

    Japan's Nuclear Crisis: An Update and New Perspectives
    April 7, 2011 Panel Discussion
    Edward Blandford, Lynn Eden, Chaim Braun, Charles Perrow

    Markets, Information, and the Spreading of Risks: The Economic Meltdown and Organizational Theory
    April 1, 2010 Research Seminar
    Charles Perrow, Kenneth J. Arrow

    Big Organizations and Climate Change: The Rubber Hits The Road And The Smell Is Awful
    April 16, 2009 Social Science Seminar
    Charles Perrow, Stephen H. Schneider
    +PDF+ conference agenda available

    Organizing the World: Flexible Contracting? Or Consolidation and Predation?
    February 14, 2008 Social Science Seminar
    Charles Perrow


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    • VanneV anne

      [cont.]
      Nuclear denial: From Hiroshima to Fukushima
      Charles Perrow
      Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists vol. 69, 5 (2013)

      Fukushima and the Inevitability of Accidents
      Charles Perrow
      Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists vol. 67, 6 (2011)

      Technology Can Nudge Climate Change Politics
      Charles Perrow
      Bloomberg News (2011)

      The Next Catastrophe: Reducing Our Vulnerabilities to Natural, Industrial, and Terrorist Disasters
      Charles Perrow
      Princeton University Press (Third printing and first paperback printing) (2011)

      Organizations and Global Warming
      Charles Perrow
      Routledge in "Handbook of Society for Climate Change" (2010)

      http://cisac.stanford.edu/


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      • Robin of Loxley

        I don't care what he's published. That doesn't make him knowledgable or right. Him claiming this:

        “Conditions in the unit 4 pool, 100 feet from the ground, are perilous, and if any two of the rods touch it could cause a nuclear reaction that would be uncontrollable [and] would require the evacuation of surrounding areas including Tokyo”

        Very irresponsible fear-mongering. At most, this scenario would likely result in localized releases. I wish people here would stop seeing everything as the end of the world. If it's not the absolute possible worst-case scenario, people won't even believe it. *sigh*


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  • Robin of Loxley

    I guess none of you noticed that most of the headlines on this site contain the words 'maybe', 'perhaps', 'possibly', 'if', etc. when talking about the worst-case scenarios. Things are bad enough as they are without this type of one-sided fear-mongering.


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  • KDM KDM

    I see this site and the discussions here very valuable for bringing awareness of the Fukushima disaster. Do I believe everything that is stated here? No. Regardless of what's right, what could be, what could happen, or any untruth. There are possibilities that can happen and are discussed. Will it all unfold? Just like the pro nuke claim they can build a safe reactor. Is this true, could it happen, do they know? No. They will argue their point and paint a fairytale picture of how safe and great they are. How is this just? They are trying to make a point and convince people their death machines are our friends. We buried another family member this week, cancer victim. I look around me each day and wonder who is next.


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  • VanneV anne

    “Voice of America, Oct. 15, 2013: [Mitsuhei Murata, Japan’s former ambassador to Switzerland] said a series of incidents over the past 30 months – including radioactive water leaks – have called into question TEPCO’s ability to carry out this critical operation. “The Unit 4 contains 10 times more Cesium-137 than Chernobyl. So in case the worst occurs, a total withdrawal [from the site] will be imposed, which means this can be considered as the beginning of the ultimate catastrophe of the world and the planet,” said Murata [...] “The two-and-a-half years of struggling by the state and by TEPCO have proven that nuclear accidents cannot be coped with by electric companies or by a single state.”
    http://enenews.com/tv-nuclear-report-warns-of-apocalyptic-scenario-at-fukushima-next-month-fuel-assemblies-may-have-been-damaged-at-unit-4-ambassador-this-could-one-day-be-considered-start-of-the-ultimate


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  • VanneV anne

    Japan Diplomat: Concern fuel rods in Unit 4 pool are damaged — “Have they moved”? — Transfer process could go on for decades, not months
    http://enenews.com/japan-diplomat-concern-fuel-rods-in-unit-4-pool-are-damaged-have-they-moved-transfer-process-could-take-decades-not-months


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  • VanneV anne

    Gundersen: 200 brand new fuel bundles in Fukushima Unit 4 pool are most at risk to start nuclear chain reaction — If too close together during removal, there will be a criticality
    http://enenews.com/gundersen-200-brand-new-fuel-bundles-fukushima-unit-4-pool-risk-start-nuclear-chain-reaction-close-together-during-removal-will-be-criticality-be-very-very-cautious-audio

    [Google translation of the German transcript]
    “…MN: My impression is that the biggest concern – even the water tanks are of course very worrying – but that the biggest concern is the spent fuel pools . They are filled in the open air and with huge amounts of material. They will probably try in October or November to remove the fuel . What is the temperature of this cooling pond ? If the cooling is lost , what happens then? Is the fuel already decayed so far that not much is going to happen , or is it , this is something where it [ may ] be a big explosion ?

    “AG: That's a very good question that I must answer in any case , and I will do so immediately : The spent fuel pool in unit 4 is the most alarming because it houses a complete reactor core , and this is still pretty hot. This core is now three years no longer in the reactor. You have a reactor core for five years in the water to cool before it is so far decayed that it can be cooled by air. Much of the decay heat is removed.


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    • VanneV anne

      [cont.]
      The risk that the water could evaporate in such a basin within a day, no longer exists. Back when the accident happened , so all the water of a pool would probably evaporate within one to three days , because at that time there was enough decay heat present. But now, three years have passed, the evaporation would probably need a month. There is still plenty of heat locally that would be possible. But in a month anything can be done – provided that the spent fuel remains intact. My major concern , therefore, is that the pool gets cracked by a massive earthquake : we would remain at risk that the exposed fuel begins to burn in air. It would take longer for the fire begins, and that would give people the opportunity to do something , but still: we are not yet out of the woods .

      “But to recover the fuel is another problem . The fuel elements are like cigarettes in a pack of cigarettes : if one takes the cigarette out of the pack vertically , then they remain intact. But if they are pulling at an angle or the package is creased by pressure or other action , then the cigarette break. So it is with the racks for fuel . These racks have moved, they were bent by the earthquake , several things have fallen on them and have deformed the upper ends . Hence, if pulled too much on that fuel , then some of these bundles are broken.


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    • VanneV anne

      [cont.]
      But when they break , then the gases produced during the nuclear fission , which is still located in these fuel rods from Unit 4 , will be released under the shell. It was tightened a huge shell on block 4. The reason for this cover is that these gases , if a fuel assembly breaks can be filtered before it is then discharged through the high vents. But one of the gases can not be treated , namely 85Krypton . It is a noble gas, which easily passes through the filter. The case was therefore built to allow the gases are captured , if fuel break, and these gases do not enter directly into the environment. Finally, this 85Krypton but sent through the chimney. So it has happened in the U.S., where fuel assemblies are broken. One must then vacate the area around the cooling pond and allow it to remove the gases – you can at this point, otherwise do nothing . About a day later, you can enter the area again and continue working . There is thus a occur of two ways : either you pull too hard and break a fuel bundle , or you will not be able to remove all fuel from the tank.

      “Another problem is that the pool of Unit 4 200 are brand new fuel . New fuel, which is absolutely cool in itself, but can cause a chain reaction. The fuel is stored in that portion which is reserved for fresh fuel , is the one that has the highest probability to accidentally create a criticality – a nuclear chain reaction, which nobody wants .


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    • VanneV anne

      [cont.]
      I used to build these racks for fuel , so I know that the distance between the fuel is absolutely crucial. Decreases as the distance from a fuel element to the next too , there will be a chain reaction. But this is something that should happen in a cooling pond under any circumstances. If the fuel is pulled out , so the top attention must be paid to ensuring that this fuel does not get too close to each other. It is one of the weaknesses of the Mark I draft that the spent fuel is high above the ground , so unprotected….”

      http://fairewinds.org/podcast/bridging-news-gap-professor-matt-noyes


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  • VanneV anne

    at 1:20, good video of SFP #4 showing damaged rods and debris
    Fukushima Radiation Cycles Globe in 40 Days & Update 5/28/12

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvWarWvMojs


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  • VanneV anne

    15 point plan submitted by Arnie and other scientists to the Secretary General of the UN:

    Nuclear engineer Arnie Gundersen of Fairewinds.org and an international team of scientists created a 15-point plan to address the crises at Fukushima.
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/10/25/the-global-threat-of-fukushima/
    The Honorable Ban Ki moon, Secretary General
    The United Nations
    http://www.nirs.org/fukushima/expert-ltr-bankimoon-09-2013.pdf


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  • Fukushima: Questions and Answers
    Q : Why after the accident, all the reactors were not entombed?
    A : Because of the pools fully loaded. There where hope to remove them before entombing the rest.
    Q : Why the pools are not still emptied?
    A: Because ceils and even the cranes had collapsed on them and made it difficult to do it.
    Q: Why does the Pool number 4 in worst state them the others?
    A: Because it was loaded with new, therefore hot rods. The core was emptied and the rods were on the pool, which dried and caught fire, probably melted trough the pool floor after the earthquake and tsunami, destabilized the structure that was not prepared for such a fire.
    Q: So how TEPCO is going to fix this? Are they going to empty that pool?
    A: Difficult to say so! Even the cranes in operation on the site are remotely controlled. Yet with the new structure they built on top of number 4, they will probably have more radioactivity trapped in. It will require a hell of precision to extract these rods which are certainly in a bad shape, and of cause, remotely! Technically impossible, but what choice do they have left if not try…


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  • Q: So success is not at sight?
    A: they are very aware of failure. The structure they have built is not unnecessary anyway. It is most probably a beginning of a sarcophagus, and in case things go wrong, they have less than 25% to complete before it start spewing unsupported radiations. They can still also berry the pool with cement since they built an access to it. So the structure is totally independent to the pool, showing that a certainly collapse of that pool will not affect that structure, and still give access to do all the entombing work to contain it.
    New technologies are the most wanted to limit Fukushima consequences.
    http://kanaky.freeiz.com


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