NYTimes: NRC official predicted rising levels of radioactivity may stop airliners from coming to Tokyo — “Unfathomable” challenges for Japan

Published: February 22nd, 2012 at 3:04 am ET
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Title: Transcripts Show U.S. Confusion Early in Japan Nuclear Crisis
Source: NYTimes.com
Author: Matthew L Wald
Date: Feb 21, 2012

[...] the [Nuclear Regulatory Commission] released a cache of transcripts of internal conference calls beginning hours after the earthquake. [...]

“This government has got tremendous, tremendous, I mean, unfathomable challenges,” said another official, Charles Casto, the deputy administrator for the N.R.C. region that covers the western United States.

Speaking from Tokyo, he predicted that rising levels of radioactivity might stop airliners from coming to Tokyo. (This did not happen.) [...]

Read the report here

Published: February 22nd, 2012 at 3:04 am ET
By
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88 comments

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88 comments to NYTimes: NRC official predicted rising levels of radioactivity may stop airliners from coming to Tokyo — “Unfathomable” challenges for Japan

  • Alice Alice

    If the experts don't know how to deal with this catastrophe, what about us nogginheads?

    If the only solution is to stop flying planes, what's going to happen to frequent flyer miles?

    Get the headlines out! Call on anyone who can help to resolve this crisis. Hurry!


    Report comment

    • rooks rooks

      Hi Alice, I think that is why we are were we are. Right after the explosions many governments asked if they could assist and the Japanese simply said no. The only thing that can be done is to educate and evacuate. Let the world economy fall if this is what is needed to get rid of nukes.


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      • BreadAndButter BreadAndButter

        +1. Hi rooks!


        Report comment

      • Alice Alice

        I'm afraid you're right, rooks.

        I see Japanese 'pride' as a stubborn form of self-reliance, which in itself isn't a bad thing but when the whole world is involved, then it behooves the Japanese to come right out and yell,"HELP!"

        No one will think any less of them.


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        • rooks rooks

          I wish we lived in a world in which we could ask for help without pride in the way. I still am convinced this was without a doubt the worst country to have such a man-made disaster. It will be years before they wake up and find out "kizuna" was fake. I get so freaking angry that I can see the whole picture while those around me walk as zombies.


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      • Nigwil

        I would rather the world's (espec Japan, USA and France's) economies hung in for a while yet. That's because – as we see at Fukushima – every nuke in the world needs sustained external energy sources for decades to get to a safe shut-down state.

        No economy? A typical indicator of that condition is irregular or non-existent national elecrical power grid supplies, and irregular or non-existent fossil fuel supplies. Since – particularly in Japan – the supply of these two energy sources is inextricably intertwined with the make-safe cooling of the nation's nuclear power plants, we need a plan for provision of make-safe power to every nuke in the world that will be robust enough to survive for a long time after global oil exports cease.

        And with both Saudi Arabia and Russia expected to be consuming all their oil production by 2025 (hence zero net oil exports) we don't have long to sort that out.


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        • rooks rooks

          No, in order to save the world we need the economy to collapse. It is already collapsing so let's get it over with for the sake of future generations. If Japan did not have such a ridiculous energy policy and monopoly Japan could easily phase out coal and nukes. Three reactors are online now and the summer provided concrete evidence that nukes are not needed. Conservation made up for it. Your oil projections are off.

          In summary, there is no safe nuke shut down as they are just words that can be declared.


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        • mikey

          Hey great idea nigwell lets just keep up the status quo –hey its not like its killing us or anything and fat kids need their cokes cakes and Ipads, to have us even consider getting back to nature and givin a shit about each other on a meaningful level- HELL thats downrite Unamericano


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          • Nigwil

            Guys! I'm not seeking to retain the status quo or hang on to nukes. I'm pointing out that every nuke needs sustained external electric power supply to prevent the cores and spent fuel ponds eventually melting down and out and radiation screwing the land for miles around for ever.

            We need a deliberate effort to get all control rods in today, and to get every fuel rod into cold cask storage by Friday. If we don't then we will find that as the great unravelling proceeds (or if you prefer; as we all adopt a simpler lower-energy life style) each nuke will quietly Fuku as the local electricity grid fails.

            So take your estimate of how long it would take your local nuke to have all its fuel in cold casks and sit down with your local community and figure out how many monkeys on bicycles it will take to the cooling pumps operating until then. Set up a roster for peddling for that many years and away you go.

            Since its pretty certain you won't, then instead draw a map of all the nukes in your country, and then put a 200 mile circle around each as a future exclusion zone. Add a tail to each circle downwind for 1000 miles and you can quickly figure out where you have left to grow your food and raise your children. Act now!


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    • moonshellblue moonshellblue

      Alice, I'm sorry to say but that window has closed and I hope someone proves this statement incorrect and soon. I truly believe there were many things that could have been done back in March and April vs a year later. First of all instead of pouring seawater on the cores I have been told a mixture of sand and boron would have been a better choice? I'm just parroting what a chemist told me who's is very bright and had many suggestions but now says it is too late. Also the Japanese culture is very different which is also a challenge.


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  • ShutItAllDown

    Just because they didn't stop flights to Tokyo doesn't mean they shouldn't have.

    Has anyone travelled on an plane that travels the Pacific regularly? Take your radiation counter with you and wander down the back of the plane and wave it around the cabin air filters in the ceiling. That's probably where most of the hot particles collect.


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    • Laterlukemayb Laterlukemayb

      ShutItAllDown, you probably would be labeled as a terrorist if you tried to take a counter on an airliner.


      Report comment

      • rooks rooks

        I think they would confiscate it before one got on the plane. Must be in checked in luggage. TSA may have you locked down for a day. These detection devices are a threat to National Security. How backwards has the world become!?


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      • moonshellblue moonshellblue

        Check youtube, plenty of people have taken their geiger counters on planes for measurements.- Flight: Tokyo – Boston
        - Dose rate in Chiba/Ichikawa: 0.2µSv/hr
        - Peak dose rate inside an X-ray machine: 1.65mSv/hr (luggage only!)
        - Peak in-flight dose rate: 3.7µSv/hr
        - Average dose rate: 1.75µSv/hr
        - Dosage during trip: 21µSv
        - Dose rate in Boston: 0.10µSv/hr
        - Dose rate on red bricks in Cambridge: 0.23µSv/hr (red bricks naturally are slightly radio active)
        - Dose rate in front of MIT nuclear reactor in Cambridge: 0.11µSv/hr


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        • aigeezer aigeezer

          Thanks moonshellblue. I've been looking around for benchmark numbers like that.

          My new PRM-8000 has been reading about the same as the Boston numbers you cite, so I'm starting to think that's a reasonable "normal" background level these days.

          There's nothing like the ongoing soft random clicks of a Geiger counter to remind one what's at stake in nuke-world.


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    • James2

      Those airliners that travel to and from Japan are probably full of radiation. Not only have they been transporting people to/from the affected areas, but they likely flew through the clouds of radiation and got the hottest of hot particle contamination.

      I'm betting there's going to be some job openings for trans Pacific flight crews starting in about 3-6 months, when they all get their first cancer diagnosis.


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      • mikey

        James2 excellent points! And this is just part of the big picture- Airplanes too contaminated to fly toxic air filters on all planes constantly having to be changed in complete HAZMAT suits. Giant caves at the airport to store the planes Airfilters and the nuke water leftover after the planes are washed and decontaminated after every Pacific trip – every inter California flight- after every east coast flight ect……
        But wait theres more! China told a huge cargo ship to turn around at its port with NO CARGO OFFLOADED!! And why? Cuz it popped over to Tokyo on its way there! Think monkees would u sail ur ships/ur planes to lands so toxic that every trip is a ONE-WAY trip? hell no and so the sun will truly set on Japan


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        • James2

          Are they really doing those things at the maintenance hubs?

          It would surprise me, because word would get out pretty quick and nobody would ride the planes.

          There were stories in the first two weeks about flight arrivals tripping the radiation monitors in both DFW and O"hare. They had to turn them off.

          Never heard anything since, but I speculated that every container ship that sailed the pacific went through hot clouds, and they probably had to turn off all the rad monitors in the shipyards too. Everything imported is probably hot now.


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  • goathead goathead

    Airplanes, soon to be known as modern day coffin ships!!


    Report comment

  • goathead goathead

    Any guesses for the most contaminated and deadly route???


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  • PoorDaddy PoorDaddy

    Here's the last 3 paragraphs of the complete article. They admit to manipulating info to make nuke sound safe, safer and safest. NRC should be on trial!

    "Speaking from Tokyo, he predicted that rising levels of radioactivity might stop airliners from coming to Tokyo. (This did not happen.) He remarked on his own tiredness, and rambled a bit. “When you’ve got a thousand dead bodies washing up on the shore, you know, it’s — you know, these people — I don’t know, I mean, we — you know, I think we’d be prepared for it, but it’s — this is — it is a tough time for them, and we’re over here barking at them.”

    He also remarked that there would be questions about the safety of reactors in the United States with the same design. “I think we have to take the position that we’re safe,” he said. “We were safe yesterday, we’re safe today, and we’re going to be safer tomorrow based on what we’ve learned.”

    At that point, an unidentified participant responded: “This is good. I mean, the president is calling for an assessment of the safety of nuclear power in this country. And I’m not exactly sure what that means yet, but I think we have an opportunity to shape it. And I would jump in and shape it in roughly the same direction you’re pointing.”"


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  • Stylish geiger counter, looks like digital camera!
    March is buy your girl a Geiger Month!

    http://www.gqelectronicsllc.com/comersus/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=4542

    Stylish and cheap at $160 on sale.

    Sheesh, why not have a restaurant ready Geiger.

    No Geiger? Poor thing.

    Buy one for your girl, Geiger shows the love almost as much as Diamonds (not!), but its way cheaper!


    Report comment

  • BreadAndButter BreadAndButter

    Butting in with good news:
    Kuwait scraps nuclear power in light of fuku crisis

    "Kuwait is no longer pursuing nuclear power following the disaster in Japan, scrapping a plan last July to build four reactors by 2022, an official of a Kuwaiti government research body told Kyodo News and other media Tuesday.

    While a number of countries, such as Germany, Switzerland and Italy, have decided to turn away from nuclear power due to the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant crisis, it is rare for a country which has signed a civil nuclear power cooperation agreement with Japan to do so.

    Nuclear energy was intended to be part of Kuwait's strategy to preserve its oil resources and it had set up a national nuclear energy committee in 2009."

    http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2012/02/143110.html

    *Yes! Morning all!


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    • BreadAndButter BreadAndButter

      …I mean..how can someone sitting in a desert even start thinking about nuclear as a good idea?? GO SOLAR!
      Apparently, they used a calculator at last. Good for them and the world.


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    • rooks rooks

      Countries aborting plans are smart while countries exploring nukes are as intelligent as one that places a bomb in their yard.


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      • john lh john lh

        Rooks ,

        You must are talking about our Chinese dictatorship government as intelligent as one taht places a bomb in their yard!

        We are much more intelligent than that, we are building all the different models of nuclear reactors in China, from 1st to 4th generation reactors all over China now!


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    • Alice Alice

      A glimmer of hope in the darkness.

      How many more countries will follow this lead?

      Our Sun was meant to stay up there and used indirectly via solar cells, not brought down to terra firma to fry all of us.


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  • rooks rooks

    Fukushima airport had several international routes before this but I think only one was restored. I would not want to be in an airplane flying directly over daiichi. Talk about "please turn off your phones" as meaningless!


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  • Laterlukemayb Laterlukemayb

    If there was confusion just days after the crisis began they must be pulling their hair out now. Oh, there was a pun in there, not intended.


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  • StillJill StillJill

    Good one, Laterluke,… sadly, one doesn't have to pull or tug anymore to have hair loss these days,…it falls out quite nicely all by it's litttle old selfy! :-(


    Report comment

    • Laterlukemayb Laterlukemayb

      I thought I was the only one that had they're hair falling out more than usually does, and I live a LONG ways away from the West Coast. So it isn't just me?


      Report comment

    • LetThemEatYellowCake LetThemEatYellowCake

      Have you guys noticed over the past 2 months or so the sudden upsurge in number of hairloss commercials? (and I barely watch tv) "Are you tired of losing your hair? Are you too young to be balding? Cover that embarassing bald…" To 20-50 year old women, noted as premature, but is presented as common without explanation. yeek I'm pretty sure I know.


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  • elements

    While I pity the Japanese people for being on ground ZERO, these radioactive elements will be with us for a long time.
    No need to continue procastinating..these things ain't going away, same us the people on West Coast continental US.So what to do?
    1.If you are a man with Family..move them out now.In the event of a choatic situation you really do not want them around.Say you are at work, you got to get from work..to school to pick them, the home, the afew days to prepare an exit..all these while everyone is trying to mahe a mad dash..traffic jams and all, food to think about and all.
    2.Suggested relocation, I seem to remember a story on here of a guy that relocated wife and kids to N Zealand,I would think a Tourist visa would work temporarily to Venezuela, Brazil, Chile, Costa Rica,Argentina, Holland,Austria and etc
    3.Time to dispose of any unnecessary baggage House, cars and get down to a suit case only.The house will be worthless soon.And if you plan well do not pay the morgage, care note any more.Plan something to your advantage here.
    4.Do NOT care.. leave work..but plan.It will not be easy to find another in your new location, but still you wanna live.
    5.Do NOT care about credit issues..infact max the cards out.Cash them if you can.
    6.Research on Africa too…cheap and hospitable..read up on Zambia, Botswana, Kenya etc
    7.Rely on your own judgement..this moment seems like the lull before the big storm.There will be no evident sign.
    8.311 was no isolated incident, it may happen again and again..now you know.
    9.Do NOT act with the pack..but still look into moving back to the land..enough with slaving for corporations.
    10.Ok I forget my last point but enough with material living and the easy comfortable life that technology affords..its back to the basics..survival..so go of the grid.

    BANZAI fellow elements..its all we really are.REALLY.


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    • rooks rooks

      Your plan is good but you do not include the leaving as creating a huge debt for your closest relatives in Japan. Everyone that commits suicide in Japan leaves all the debt/expenses to the family. A lot easier said than done.


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      • LetThemEatYellowCake LetThemEatYellowCake

        So rooks, in Japan, is default akin to suicide as far debt is handled?


        Report comment

        • elements

          I wrote a better response and it did not show…
          BUT..what I was saying is..how do they define Relative???Do you have to indicate all your relatives in your loan applications???Why do they have to shoulder your burden.Then move them out first.And say you die today from radiation..do your relatives have to shoulder the said burden? Get off the grid..you and all your relatives..and go start a new some place esle..I think your need to reload you mind.Think aknew.Does all you are..all you have really matter anymore.Whats the worst that can happen to your relatives if the do not pay..??
          hit report button in error and report..rooks…my mistake.


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          • LetThemEatYellowCake LetThemEatYellowCake

            One of mine didn't either…glitchy connection today on my end. I just said great list elements! It would be nice to see more realize they need to change their mind. Numbers are low..which puzzles me that more don't do it 11 months ago. Who are people expecting instructions from? Maybe they need to consider what independence means.


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      • elements

        I wrote a better response and it did not show…
        BUT..what I was saying is..how do they define Relative???Do you have to indicate all your relatives in your loan applications???Why do they have to shoulder your burden.Then move them out first.And say you die today from radiation..do your relatives have to shoulder the said burden? Get off the grid..you and all your relatives..and go start a new some place esle..I think your need to reload you mind.Think aknew.Does all you are..all you have really matter anymore.Whats the worst that can happen to your relatives if the do not pay..??
        sorry seems i reported comment..not replied..sorry..my bad


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    • Nigwil

      Why New Zealand?!??! It will be one of the first places without an oil supply as global demand exceeds supply – so far away and nobody will care.


      Report comment

      • elements

        Nigwil
        They is NO limited supply of oil in the world..and there is no global demand that exceeds supply.Do research abiotic oil… ALSO the global players are sanctioning Iranian oil..hence increase in price..but the cost of extraction will remain the same..meaning more pofits for the oil industry..do not be that naive..n zealand is not the only country I suggested..Have you had your coffee this morning???


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        • or-well

          elements, try floating your theories on oil at a site with an energy-knowledgeable commentariat like The Oil Drum, or just go and learn from the extensive archive there.
          It's not a pro-oil industry site.
          It is an energy REALITY site.
          That's all I have to say to you.


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          • elements

            And your point is???I am NOT there because I am here… thanks tho' for the preaching, lecture..I needed that..I am dumb like that..
            "It's not a pro-oil industry site.
            It is an energy REALITY site."

            Energy…hmmm

            Lets save the world shall we or-wel..after you buddy…I am open to any ideas..always have been.But i aint as smart as you..still I wonder about fossil vs Abiotic..I am stupid like that..ain't nuclear great man..it's what's brought us together..thank gawd. I aint floating anything I leave that to you..but I do from time to time respond to sh!t to the best of my ability…not in poetry form tho'..did you notice???HA!!!


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            • or-well

              elements:straight up truth. I am angry, partly in response to your post @8:13. Fair? No. Screwed up? You bet! And despairing! Guilty as charged! Abiotic oil theory pressed a button. I lost it. My point? We're screwed. There is no saving this inequitably energy distributed world, this industrial modernity based on relatively cheap,easy to access, economical to produce energy based on finite fossil fuel.
              Even if we survive nukes, we're still on the downslope of maximum global oil production. Slow slide? Sudden drop? Descending plateaus? Just a difference in time-frames.
              I did research Abiotic oil. I wish I could have concluded it was fact. Maybe one day it will turn out to be. The Majors would love that. They'd keep their grip. They'd dip their straws back in all those places they've left, instead of searching the ends of the earth for new sources.
              We never extract every last drop. Its uneconomical, or the grade isn't economical to refine. Not every refinery can refine the same grades and none can refine all. There's room for smaller players to go in and they are because right now it pays.
              Oil prices will move with the latest Nigerian pipeline attack, the latest tanker aground, the latest spill,rig fire, approaching hurricane, unrest in an oil producing country or region, rig availability or flows of speculative money. Iran is just one factor.
              Oil may even get real cheap with an economic collapse!
              Doesn't necessarily mean it will cost less to produce.
              There's no way it costs the same to poke a hole in the middle of Texas as it does to drill under a mile of ocean.
              I suspect we'd disagree about much that's oil related.
              And maybe much else besides.
              So you know, I am anti-nuke, even if it means going back a LONG ways. Better than extinction. We need MASSIVE investment in alt-en, but even with that, the clocks ticking on what we've got. Abiotic oil just distracts from that, IMO. Too bad, we could use a cushion to prepare.


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      • cnsrndctzn cnsrndctzn

        New Zealand will actually be better off than most. 70% of its electricity is aleady from renewables. Hydro and wind on the South Island, solar on the N. Island, geo-thermal on both. They aim to be 100% by 2025.

        http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2007/09/new-zealand-commits-to-90-renewable-electricity-by-2025-50075


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    • moonshellblue moonshellblue

      Yes, I just read an article about Hanford and how amazed scientist were when they measured the plutonium and found no change from over forty years ago. The scientist thought rain and weathering would wash it away. Duh, wishful thinking?


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  • elements

    Last but NOT least, traveling!!!
    I tend to think these monster elements are everywhere and will be due to movement.
    Birds, People, trains, air planes,cars, products, wind & ocean currents etc anything they can attach to..cloths even, shoes.
    Someone mentioned carrying a Geiger counter into planes..I think it is not disallowed..even masks.Thats the future..oxygen knapsacks, masks and all.WElcome to MOON.

    Anyho..time to redefine a whole NEW world.

    Y'all BE BRAVE!!! And thank you all for being HERE..each of you..or-wel? you crack UP…You got a beautiful mind.i wanna be just like you when I grow up…but do not think I can much you skill/brain.Thats a compliment from one dude to another…


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  • Whoopie Whoopie

    Morning all. Rooks good to see you. Hope you are still planning to leave soon.
    Front Page check this a.m. at HP brings nothing on Japan but brings this article, kinda reminding me of the YAKUSZA USING MENTALLY ILL PATIENTS @ Daiichi "Sheriff: Illinois 'Treating' Mentally Ill Residents By Throwing Them In Jail"
    SICKENING.
    I'm about the only one left HERE http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/30/fukushima-daiichi-nuclear-disaster_n_1240907.html#comments
    And this Thread is still kinda active if your interested Stocks continues to pound the Pro-Nukers HERE http://www.huffingtonpost.com/elliott-negin/the-unclear-nuclear-reviv_b_1284561.html


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  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    Those complicit are only an elbow length away..
    The Japanese did not have to help…because good "friends" were there straight away..to help.
    They arrived just days…of the disaster (dumb but they will find out.
    It is very important peopple remember..that help was given by the US..(do to the high level of complicity)
    The US sent it's best…we sent drones…and MAMA HILLARY.
    The State Dept. and the US military were the first there…no real response to Fukushima at all for the first few days…while the kindly assistance figured out what they want to do…
    http://www.examiner.com/human-rights-in-national/radiating-americans-with-fukushima-rain-food-secret-clinton-pact
    Here is a person going off about it pretty soundly on GLP.
    http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1600124/pg1
    With Mama Hillary about ..who could ask for more?


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    • Whoopie Whoopie

      Thanks for those links Heart. What the fuck is wrong with this picture. What kind of world are we living in? Are these people in charge, REALLY those lizards that Icke and others talk about? I have refused to believe that: go THAT far…but it's starting to make me wonder.


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      • James2

        THEY ARE NOT IN CHARGE! YOU ARE!

        "They" are simply figureheads riding the gravy train. They don't know what's going on, or won't listen – if you are here, you so and can.

        History is littered with the bodies of good folks who waited for their "leaders" to lead them. Your leader has already shown that he/she isn't going to lead. You have enough information right now.


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        • Whoopie Whoopie

          YES! Your right James.


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        • ion jean ion jean

          James2 wiser words have ne'er been spoken!!

          Whoopie, he's right…we are the truthtellers

          We can have it like Ghandi's India or like Arab Spring's Egypt, but I predict come spring, OWS will reemerge roaring like Azlan!


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        • moonshellblue moonshellblue

          I think the problem is that our elected officials think they are members of an exclusive club one which allows them to benefit in so many ways medical insurance, insider trading, etc. the list is vast. Politicians have lost their purpose, to help the public. Now it's to help themselves and all the promises spewed from their mouths are just as foul as the vapors flowing out of the cracks at Fukushima. IMHO


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    • ion jean ion jean

      Our atomic governcorp in the U.S. Visited long enough to determine…

      FukU was gonna be worse than Chernobyl but not quite as bad as when they nuked their own people in the 50s and 60s, so most of us will survive, for now

      The nuclear fallout liability was Japan's not theirs

      Emergency response to protect these United States was too expensive (we're in a Depression and Banker Bailout/Ponzi Scheme)

      U.S. Population is a veritable CASH COW for the AMA, Big Pharma and corps that build med radiological equip like GE (who enjoys a tax free ride in this country)

      Since GE already made its money building dysfunctional NPP reactors, it now profits most from building CT scans and mammograms to detect Baby Boomer cancers that were caused in part by aforementioned NPPs

      GE, U.S. Military/Nuclear Energy Cartel will rape and rob the world blind from stillbirth to premature death!!!


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      • Whoopie Whoopie

        I agree ion. We're on the road to destruction…along with the rest of the world. Who said it earlier above…maybe TOTAL ECONOMIC COLLAPSE is needed to restart and build again. But then again, Fuky will take care of MILLIONS and MILLIONS. SLIPPERY SLOPE WE'RE ON.


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        • ion jean ion jean

          @Whoopie…So let's enjoy the ride!!! In my religious upbringing, I have always gained immense satisfaction from TAKING THE MORAL HIGHER GROUND and that's easy to snatch from Reptilian Brains…

          So now we have GOD ON OUR SIDE, let's see what miracles we can channel with that!!!


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          • Whoopie Whoopie

            I'm ready ion. CHANNELING RIGHT NOW! Altho I like to call it A HIGHER POWER. Believe it or not, I was brought up Morman. Left many moons ago…but tell you what, I am thankful my Mom MADE US KIDS go to church. I think it helped make me who i am. Dont BELIEVE IN ANY RELIGON TODAY. In fact, "religion" is what's wrong with the world imo. I can still believe WITHOUT church.


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      • Without GE, there would be no beer… aimed for the very heart of Joe Six-pack. Guess this was a SuperBowl ad, but it's getting heavy primetime rotation on msnbc and Comedy Central for several days now.

        Insidious galling sneakthieves! I am surprised to find myself so surprised. Shocked, even.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds5hVzrkoKI


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      • mikey

        Ion Jean-FukU was gonna be worse than Chernobyl but not quite as bad as when they nuked their own people in the 50s and 60s

        REALLY?? Not as bad u sure honey? Cuz last I checked that didnt Nuke their own people every day for almost a year and still going strong!!!!!


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    • moonshellblue moonshellblue

      PattiB, thank you. I think this confirms that living near a nuclear power plant is not a healthy lifestyle choice.


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    • James2

      Joy, I am stuck staring at this map for the past 30 minutes.

      If I'm reading it correctly it represents 5 million people who died of cancer from 1970 to 1994 – so it's pretty old data. Plus they have normalized the data to death rate – presumably to balance out population density – which is good. I would also assume that there's some population shifting if a person is dying from cancer – which would tend to shift people away from places without hospitals toward places with better hospitals to die and be recorded

      I have some observations and some questions.

      1. Would this map still hold true in 2012? both pre Fukushima and post Fukushima.
      2. Observation – there appears to be more than one factor at play here – population density definitely has an impact – perhaps chemical exposure or smoking does it.

      But you can also clearly see some geographic impacts. For example I see an obvious white line that approximately follows the blue ridge parkway from Georgia up through Virginia. The big white area stretching from West Texas and New Mexico up to Montana and North Dakota is obvious too.

      Interestingly there is a strong red line around the lower mississippi river, but that doesn't necessarily continue to the upper mississippi and the missouri rivers, but it does continue up the ohio. interesting also that Maine is 100% red. Granola areas of northern California and Oregon are bad – and it extends over past Reno.

      Seems like the west slopes of mountains catch cancer and the rivers feed cancer.

      Assuming this map is still a reasonable representation today- where would I go to live: Salt Lake City, Colorado Springs, Taos and Santa Fe NM. Cody Wyoming, maybe.


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  • James2

    I'm sorry I said Joy – this was from PattieB – thanks. I'm liking this.


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  • PattieB PattieB

    The key is the blue dots… they are reactors… and Canada has a good many that trash Maine.

    The end-events have begun… it's now against law to withdraw your money and close your bank account
    http://www.activistpost.com/2011/10/megabanks-are-trying-to-prevent-bank.html


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  • James, looks to me like these cancer rates follow population density pretty closely (except for northern New England, especially Maine), which is hardly surprising. You mentioned Taos/Santa Fe. I lived in Taos in 1979-81, got there just in time for the local news to be all about the Great Gallup Tailings Dam Disaster that deposited up to 4 inches of uranium/radium salts on the banks of the Rio Puerco through the Navaho rez, 'officials' claimed for months they couldn't tell if it was dangerous for children to play in it…

    They also finished up a study of Los Alamos during that time, more per capita PhDs of any place in America, highest per capita cancer rate too. They decided to blame it on the green chili peppers that grow in the region and everybody loves to eat. Turns out the lab had been releasing tritium into the arroyos for years, mixing with the crop irrigation water to produce self-destructing chilis! At the same time they took a look at a little problem out by the by-pass. Turned out the old Los Alamos linear accelerator was neutron-activating commuters twice a day, its target zone aimed right at a busy exchange where people were inevitably stuck in stop-and-go during rush hour. They had to close it down…

    Cancer rates have gone steadily up everywhere since this map was done, and will continue to go up for people who don't die of something else first. Our whole system is carcinogenic – the causes are in everything. Lots of money in it (both causing cancer and treating it), so it's not likely to change.


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    • James2

      I disagree that it follows population density.

      First off, the data is normalized for population – however there obviously still could be some causal factors.

      But there are some places with high cancer and low population Deep south: Arkansas, Alababma, Mississippi – all high.

      And then there are the obvious geographic influences.

      I don't think it maps to the power plants as closely as I thought it would – there's lot's going on here.

      I'd like to see a newer map.


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      • According to the American Cancer Society -
        http://www.cancer.org/Cancer/CancerBasics/lifetime-probability-of-developing-or-dying-from-cancer
        your odds of developing cancer in your lifetime are 1 in 2 for men, 1 in 3 for women. No matter where you live. The carcinogens are in our air, water and food supply, ubiquitous and inescapable. Once you reach a certain age (haven't yet died of something else), your chances start approaching 100%.

        Now, the map may reflect diagnosis rates year to year, but people in Maine have no greater chance of developing cancer than people in New Mexico. They might have more access to medical diagnosis, though. Lots of people don't, so aren't diagnosed until they're dying. Them's the odds. Every burping nuke, every filthy coal-belcher, every refinery, every chemical plant, every industry dumping carcinogens into the water supply, every agricultural region relying on carcinogens to get crops to harvest, every "New & Improved!" additive to the fake food supply causes suffering and death on these terms. And even if the cancer rates were 100% it would never be enough to do anything about it per cost-benefit analyses where the 'little people' bear the costs and the wealthy owners get all the benefits.


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    • Bobby1

      The area along the Mississippi river from Memphis south has a large number of chemical plants… the area in Louisiana west down to Houston has oil refineries and chemical plants, there is a dense cluster around there. The prevailing winds blow the pollution east, and when it hits the mountains in Kentucky down to Georgia, it gets rained out, and the other side of the mountains has lower mortality rates. It is increases again near the coast, as a result of the reactors and polluting industrial plants farther east, the wind blows these pollutants up to New England.


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      • James2

        That's pretty similar to what I guessed, but it's pure guesswork for me. Lot's of questions.

        For example it's obvious the mississippi is a cancer carrier from the map really heavy – but only from the Ohio river side mostly south of Cairo – not the upper mississippi or the missouri side – why is that?

        Is it because of the chemical plants as you say? Is it because the nuke plants are upwind of the Ohio river side only? Or is it something else. What are the major things that bring cancer to an area:

        - nuclear plant
        - chemical plant
        - large river
        - smoking vs. nonsmoking?
        - pesticides? DDT?
        - Fertilizers? Bug killers
        - Water treatment? Flouridization? (what was the line in the movie?)

        I don't really see smoking on the map, because the health conscious states are all cancer prone – California, Washington, Oregon, New England, North Carolina – all red – Colorado is an exception, but I think that's geographic – I can almost see the continental divide on the map – with one blaring exception – Western Montana must have gotten blasted from Hanford.

        I would love to have a couple hours with someone who's a real expert on what this map tells us.


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  • Ganxet Ganxet

    In the same way, are BTS (GSM stations) air filters 24/7 running a corncern?
    Is it so dangerous?
    Can we make a hot spots map, with some of this air filters samples?


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  • PattieB PattieB

    1 nGy/h = 1 Sv/h if you don't know already… so it's a hot time on site today!


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  • Sickputer

    Oh heck…I am in moderation it seems. Well, surely there must be some reason for my shunning? *;-)

    Anyway…when I get unshunned…here is more on the transcripts…this thread might grow over time as some of us read through the interesting transcripts, redacted as they are..

    Jack Rowe speaks (page 170 of document ML12052A106[1].PDF)

    …"And then the Chairman [Jaczko] had a briefing of the commissioners at 7:30 tonight, and the five great Americans agreed that they want to have a commission meeting early next week."

    SP: Five great Americans huh? Do I detect a bit of sarcasm for the civilian appointed board officials of the NRC?

    Later at the end of this document the NRC officials hear news of the explosion of Reactor 4 and that it is in shambles. They are stunned and even more alarmed to hear the reports the Japanese 50 had pulled away from actively fighting the fires. The whole idea that the megaplex had been abandoned was a huge concern in the NRC conference calls. They were about as shook up as I recall the newscasters on TV.


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