Report: Plutonium ratio 200 times higher than gov’t says — Detection made 50km south of Fukushima Daiichi (RESULTS)

Published: March 22nd, 2012 at 4:42 am ET
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UPDATE: See updated translation here: Low-Level Plutonium of #Fukushima Origin Detected in Iwaki City, 40 Kilometers South of Fukushima I Nuke Plant

“Further, the ratio of Pu239+240/Cs-137 is 9.0E-5, which is 200 times the government estimate of 4.3E-7, showing more plutonium being detected than the government estimate indicates. It is probably because of fractionation.”


Translation by: Google
Title: Detection of trace amounts of plutonium in nuclear power plant in Iwaki truth of the disaster area
Source: http://blade1024.blog.fc2.com
Date: March  21, 2012

Trace detection of plutonium in the city of Iwaki 2012/03/21 (Wed)

“Was the child continue to investigate patiently in the city of Iwaki iron lines and α in the blog’s “, has been detected (Pu-238, Pu-239, Pu-240) plutonium of trace from the iron plate of Exposed in the fields has been reported with was.

Professor Masayoshi Yamamoto, Kanazawa University, Centre for Environmental Studies Japan Sea ring is inspected, from the results Pu238/Pu239, assertive and is derived from Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant from 240 radioactivity ratio was.

In addition, Pu239, 240/Cs-137 radioactivity ratio has become 200 times the estimate of the government, as well as to distribution in plaques that radioactive iodine and radioactive silver, (the difference of behavior) also Fractionation plutonium and is presumed to exist if there has been.

Personally infer about the emission ratio, and not of being also affects the distribution of (Np-239) is the parent nuclide of neptunium (Pu-239) plutonium.

For neptunium from that half-life 2.36 Sun, which is the point I think from now on can not be proven is impatient It should be noted.

(Comments of Dr. Yamamoto)

  • We will send the measurement results.
  • Pu is detected, and was surprised to be honest.
  • Pu is already widely in the nuclear test, are distributed at low levels.
  • With this Pu, Pu238/Pu239, 240 radioactivity ratio is about 0.03.
  • This ratio is 0.8 this is clearly high, and contains the primary origin of Pu.
  • Government estimates of emissions is 3.
  • Exposed in the fields of iron and to think and not the adhesion of Pu of nuclear testing,
  • you made ​​me think why and what ratio is low.
  • It may also lower the ratio of Pu with 0.8 instead of all three has been released.
  • Pu239, 9.0E-5 in the ratio of radioactivity 240/Cs-137, 200 times the government estimate of 4.3E-7, Pu has been detected and many more. It seems that it is for Fractionation (difference of behavior) is present perhaps.
  • I think if you can analyze and Am-241 as well as uranium, if possible currently.

Read the report here

Compare with:

Translation by: Babelfish
Title: Even in 2012/03/21 (Wed) Iwaki cities minute plutonium detection
Source: http://blade1024.blog.fc2.com
Date: March 21, 2012

Even in 2012/03/21 (Wed) Iwaki cities minute plutonium detection

Patience investigation was continued strongly in Iwaki city, there was report that with Α line and [burogu] of the griddle, minute plutonium (Pu-238, Pu-239 and Pu-240) was detected from Nozarasi’s griddle.

Governmental ceremony Mr. Yamamoto of the Kanazawa university ring Japanese sea area mental study center inspects, it was concluded that from the result it is something of Fukushima first nuclear origin from Pu238/Pu239,240 radioactivity ratio.

Furthermore, Pu239,240/Cs-137 radioactivity ratio has reached 200 times that of estimator of government, when radioactive iodine and the radioactive silver are distributed to unevenness, that it is guessed whether in the same way, either plutonium is not that [hurakushiyoneshiyon] (difference of behavior) exists.

That you guess whether privately it is not to have an influence on also the distribution circumstance of the neptunium (Np-239) which is parent nuclide of plutonium (Pu-239) concerning discharge ratio.

Furthermore concerning neptunium half-life 2.36 days from the notion that where you say, from now the point where it cannot prove is the thinking which the tooth is itchy.

(The comment of Mr. Yamamoto)

  • We send the measurement result.
  • Pu was detected, the honest place was surprised.
  • Pu is wide already with nuclear test, has been distributed low at level.
  • This Pu being attached, Pu238/Pu239,240 radioactivity ratio is 0.03.
  • The latest this ratio is high clearly with 0.8, includes Pu of nuclear origin.
  • With discharge quantitative estimate of government 3 is.
  • That Pu of nuclear test has not come in contact with Nozarasi’s griddle, when you think,
  • Why, that it is made to think whether ratio is low.
  • Don’t you think? everything 3 are not and is also a possibility Pu which has the ratio whose [te] 0.8 is low being discharged.
  • Furthermore Pu239,240/Cs-137 radioactivity ratio with 9.0E-5, reaches 200 times that of estimator 4.3E-7 of government, Pu is mainly detected. Perhaps it is thought that is, because [hurakushiyoneshiyon] (difference of behavior) exists.
  • If presently the uranium, it is possible, if you can analyze also Am-241 and the like, you think.

Read the report here

Published: March 22nd, 2012 at 4:42 am ET
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Related Posts

  1. Japan Professor: ‘Fractionation’ probably caused much higher plutonium ratio in Iwaki — Expert: “Nuclear criticality explosions in Fukushima due to plutonium fractionation” March 23, 2012
  2. Group with SAM 940 isotope identifier detected high levels of Plutonium-239 near Iwaki a month after quake — 50km south of Fukushima Daiichi — Found at multiple locations (MAP & VIDEO) March 22, 2012
  3. Report: 76 trillion becquerels of Plutonium-239 released from Fukushima — 23,000 times higher than previously announced August 29, 2011
  4. Local Official: Japan gov’t did not reveal plutonium-241 detection — Radiation dose was 50 times higher than total of other three plutonium isotopes that were mentioned (VIDEO) March 31, 2012
  5. Watch: Alpha radiation detected 50km south of Fukushima in Iwaki City — Up to 1,000 times more dangerous than beta or gamma equivalent (VIDEO) March 14, 2012

93 comments to Report: Plutonium ratio 200 times higher than gov’t says — Detection made 50km south of Fukushima Daiichi (RESULTS)

  • retali8 retali8

    and this is the magic stuff, the authorities didnt want you to know about,,, geiger testers wont pick it up,, need the pro ones,, the genie left the bottle at fuku, coriums sinking into the ground water causing hydro volcanic explosions, although many experts deny it,, plutonium has left the buildings guys,, and all those shills who want to protect there nuclear industry, think again,, toxic plutonium in your everyday environment should spell the END for nuclear power as we know it,,,


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  • retali8 retali8

    what a deadly practise nuclear power is? god help the human race, i think we need it,,
    we surely need to take every reactor offline starting from today, although bare in mind they take time to shut down,, whats the chances of a mega quake between now and then? especially when most reactors are built on fault lines,,, Pure SELFISH GREED from the nuclear industry, should hang there heads in shame,, we have all been set up as a human race,, alien beings would be laughing as us playing with fire here on earth, we simply shouldnt play with big boys toys.


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  • Bleifrei Bleifrei

    I am firmly convinced that Gov. know about actual
    Pu contamination, and where and how much
    Time to impeach in DeenHaag (NL), torture their own people, and genocide


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  • Toadmac

    Multiply these figures by 10 and its probably still on the conservative side.
    Half life=
    PU-242: 376,000 years
    PU-239: 24,065 years
    PU-240: 6,540 years
    PU-238: 87.7 years
    Plutonium-240 has a high rate of spontaneous fission, raising the neutron flux of any sample it is in. When Plutonium is exposed to moist air, it forms oxides and hydrides that expand the sample up to 70% in volume, which in turn flake off as a powder that can spontaneously ignite. It can vary in color from YELLOW to DARK OLIVE GREEN, depending on the particle size, temperature and method of production. It is also extremely toxic and radioactive, it can accumulate in the bones and lungs. It is said to be one of the most deadly substances known to man(1 millionth of a gram in your lungs is fatal over time).
    Enjoy your life.
    Peace.


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    • Toadmac

      Spent civilian power reactor fuel typically has under 70% Pu-239 and around 26% Pu-240, the rest being made up of other plutonium isotopes. 240Pu has only about 1/3 as large a neutron absorption cross section as 239Pu, and nearly always becomes plutonium-241 rather than fissioning.
      Plutonium-241 thats not on the chart, you say?
      Pu-241 (half-life of 14 years) is an isotope of plutonium formed when plutonium-240 captures a neutron.Probability of fissioning on neutron absorption is around 73%.In the non-fission case, neutron capture produces plutonium-242. 241Pu decays to americium-241,an alpha emitter with a halflife of 432 years which is a major contributor to the radioactivity of nuclear waste on a scale of hundreds or thousands of years………………….
      How much Pu-241 is floating around?
      Catch my drift?


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    • Buffalojam

      Toadmac, or anyone else with the expertise: Using PU-240 as an example, could you please help me understand a further dimension of the problem. With PU-240 having a half-life of 6540 years, this would mean that for about 65,000 years after shutdown, in order to protect ourselves from one of the most deadly substances known to man, we would have to capture and store in a cool, dry place all waste from the reactors. What kind and size of an operation would be required to do this? Is Japan in any kind of physical or financial condition to do this? What kind of events could take place which would disrupt safe storage? And this is just for PU-240.


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      • SnorkY2K

        The methods that I encountered were reacting the plutonium and turning it into Americium for smoke detectors or low volume fluid flow meters or diluting it and mixing it with glass (called vitrification).

        Because of spalling (degradation of the surface that makes pieces puff out and fall off), the material would need to be revitrified multiple times over half-life.

        Most people do not follow instructions to properly dispose of their smoke detectors so even though the waste is neptunium and americium at the time of disposal, in actuality, the final resting place for most plutonium (daughter products) is your local junk yard which is usually near a river.


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        • SnorkY2K

          I am no expert either. My expertise is limited to a small portion of manufacturing the fuel and in a separate operation modeling and identifying the inclusion of other nuclides and compensating for them on the fly. I only had to learn the processes to understand what errors we were seeing.

          Reactor by-products even include isotopes of radio-active silver. Like radio-iodine, there are many devastatingly nasty wastes other than plutonium. If you ask them if they are finding plutonium and they say no they may be correct and happy that you did not ask them to test for something else that is nasty that they had good reason to believe may be present. By limiting your requests, you are giving them a highway to avoidance.

          It is as though you are worried about getting trampled by four legged animals and ask if there are any elephants in the room then get stomped on by a rhino.


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          • hbjon hbjon

            Nice analogy. I asked if there were any elephants in the room and got stepped on by a fire breathing dragon. Tell ya what I mean. I studied the PT and discovered that Pu gains an alpha particle and makes Curium. Curium mostly bonds ionically. That means it will form molecules like sodium chloride. This is most troublesome. I am no expert, but if the Pu is 200 times higher, that must mean that Curium is also many times higher. I hope someone will correct me and say that Curium will form cold pancakes and crunchy granola.


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      • Toadmac

        By the way,I am no expert! I am a learner at both the theory and practical side of things. All my studies and advancements in knowledge over the past year only point to one thing….. ignorance is bliss because the truth hurts!


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        • Buffalojam

          Sorry Toadmac. You fooled me with the depth of your understanding of this issue in your comments above. No offense intended. I'll be more careful in the future. I started looking at the reference material mentioned by chem in his/her comment – this appears likely to be helpful in my understanding of the waste problems that I mentioned. Yes! Ignorance is bliss but I'll still take the truth anytime. Best regards.


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      • What would such a nuke waste storage operation look like and cost …some folks are giving it a go… into eternity, this show
        http://realitycheck.no-ip.info/forum/index.php/topic,21.msg424.html#msg424


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        • Lacsap Lacsap

          Half life (important):

          A half-life describes the decay of discrete entities, such as radioactive atoms. In that case, it does not work to use the definition "half-life is the time required for exactly half of the entities to decay". For example, if there is just one radioactive atom with a half-life of 1 second, there will not be "half of an atom" left after 1 second. There will be either zero atoms left or one atom left, depending on whether or not the atom happens to decay.

          Instead, the half-life is defined in terms of probability. It is the time when the expected value of the number of entities that have decayed is equal to half the original number. For example, one can start with a single radioactive atom, wait its half-life, and measure whether or not it decays in that period of time. Perhaps it will and perhaps it will not. But if this experiment is repeated again and again, it will be seen that – on average – it decays within the half-life 50% of the time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-life


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          • Lacsap Lacsap

            So half life is a probability that after the half life there is only 50% left… but wait 50% left of the original isotope which are not gone but have decayed to another isotope!!! So nothing is gone after half life but it all decay's to other isotopes and those decay and so on. All isotope like pu238 end up in lead which takes .. many many many more years then a half life term makes us believe


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      • Keep in mind uranium and plutonium kill as heavy metals more than they kill as radioactivity.


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      • Misitu

        One LEETLE TINEE problem that came up when I looked at "boral" is that the so called safe long term dry cask storage is not in fact safe for the long term and there is as yet no trusted methodology for cask inspection and repair.

        Boral is used as a neutron absorber in dry cask storage, in the form of a sandwich sealed inside steel.

        The bug is that, should a cask need repair and happen- on being opened- to go critical, which is reported as a credible eventuality, it will necessarily not be in a safe SCRAMmable environment.

        "Good luck with that then!"

        Misitu


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  • InfoPest InfoPest

    Can we get a better translation of the comments. They make no sense to me.


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  • Blown Camaro

    I thought we were supposed to multiply all government figures by 100 to get a close approximation. Now I see the bar has been raised again – to 200 times. This is what happens when I take a day off,


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  • Many stories since it was first article here, see comments !

    Massive amount of mystery black substance found on road in Minamisoma after several days of rain and snow — Emitting 50 microSv/hr (PHOTO)

    http://enenews.com/massive-amount-of-black-substance-found-on-road-in-minamisoma-after-several-days-of-rain-and-snow-emitting-50-microsvhr-photo


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  • James2

    What this confirms folks – is that if you lived in Japan – or visited in the past year – the nuclear industry killed you.

    You are dead.

    And even though we suspected before – it's now confirmed.

    Somebody let all the sailors on the USS Ronald Reagan know, and the rest of the ships in the carrier battle group.. Somebody let all the military folks and their families that were stationed in Japan know.

    Somebody let Miles Obrien know, and Anderson Cooper, and Sanjay Gupta, and Arnie Gunderson and Chris Busby and Danica Patrick and Hillary Clinton – and their staff know – been good to hear from all of you but you are now dead.

    Oh, and the poor little children – yes they are dead too.

    Sorry about that, but we just need to make some adjustments on these reactors and the rest of the world will be fine. Well, the rest of the world may not be fine.

    Folks – they've know this for 1 year and covered it up. THEY'VE BEEN LYING ABOUT IT FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR. Some of us speculated, but couldn't confirm.

    And of course we don't know how far that plutonium traveled, but we can all speculate on that too.

    Well this system is officially broken. This is ridiculous. This is not how humans should treat one another. This is not acceptable.


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    • Whoopie Whoopie

      X10 Spot on comment James. :(


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      • James2

        Just shows the leaders of the world are total dumbasses – and not leaders at all.

        35 million people in Tokyo – some of the finest minds in automobiles, photography, electronics, construction, computer games – all dead…

        and not only could they have prevented it – they're not even preventing the next one….


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        • datura17

          James, Plutonium dust is excellent as an insect repellent with the added benefit of not having to carry a flashlight or GLOW stick to see.

          everyone knows this isn't good and i surmise that whats going on with the people's mindset is rather like the Stockholm syndrome only twisted different. hmmm new for the dsm-6 or 7 (or whatever revision they are up to now) 'fukushima syndrome' is where politicians who are taking graft from any industry with knowledge such industry is in fact destroying their fellow man, their offspring, the wildlife and the environment WHILE saying everything is business as usual, there is nothing wrong, be happy and smile, eat plenty and all will be ok and above all don't worry. AND most of the people having no real choice because of money, peer pressure, are forced to do what the politicians say even though they know everything isn't right they choose to do as they are told as it is the easier decision to make as to do otherwise means that there is something wrong with THEM if they choose to go in another direction for the betterment of their life and so these people are cast out.

          what a psyop.

          our political systems are so corrupt they have reduced us to the behavior of INSECTS specifically social insects like bees, termites and ants. as this is how their behavior is. perhaps certain cultures are modeled after social insects. it occurs to me the main power of these is in the female and in mans colonies it is male, perhaps therein lies part of the problem.


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        • They are protecting their PPP- Power, Privilege, Pensions it really is as simple as that.

          Some are probably sadistic too, but that is not the main driving force.


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    • gottagetoffthegrid

      interesting point. Good ol' Steve Harper, current canadian prime minister/dictator and big nuke-pushing shill, is visiting Japan to talk free trade tomorrow, or the next day.

      I wonder what he will eat? I'd personally recommend a nice forest mushroom and beef stirfry served on rice with some delicious sushi rolls on the side(tuna and salmon of course!)


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      • James2

        Well, obviously Steve doesn't have a clue, because the danger is not eating the plutonium.

        The danger is breathing the plutonium, and he will get his first lungful as his plane prepares to land.

        Get ready for the entire contingent to die.

        BTW – there is a nuke summit in Korea next week. I think Oblama is going to attend. I suspect he'll be shaking the nuke industry down for more campaign money.

        Too bad everyone on his plane too will get a whiff of plutonium. They're handing out more than just money this year…


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        • gottagetoffthegrid

          yeah, aspiration of Pu is not on the recommneded list. He's such a fool, he's bought his own BS propoganda. it happens to the best of them: you tell a lie long enough, you start to believe it yourself.

          Now the food he'll eat will be deliciously salted with vaious Cs an and Sr isotopes. yep, he'll be getting the full-meal-deal.

          then there is the possibility of him refusing to eat the local food, which would be an major incident and insult to the Japan government. Come-on Stevie, cleanup your plate like a good boy.


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        • Whoopie Whoopie

          Scary shit but true. It's breathing the PLUTONIUM that will kill us. So long PM of Canada. Don't say WE DIDN'T WARN YOU!


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    • NO, James. They are NOT dead, they are merely exposed. Some may not die because they get good medical care. Some may die of bad medical care. Some will eventually die of the disease. Some may die of something else before ever developing cancer. Some may die of old age first. ALL of them will eventually die because life is a 100% fatal condition, in all generations. Always has been and always will be. You and I are included in that.

      You said above that the truth is plenty bad enough without tossing in a bunch of fringe conspiracy theories into the mix. That is a truth all by itself that should be in lights right up there on the marquee. The same thing is true of launching all this ELE/doomsday "everybody's already dead" crap.

      I have met death enough times in my life to be well acquainted with it. I've seen tragedies and I've seen miracles, and I've seen that all lives are complete in their time (which is entirely relative). If you've actually experienced something like having your most precious and only son bleed to death in your arms in the middle of the night, writing ANY still-living and still-powerful human being off as "already dead" comes across as horribly insensitive and deeply insulting. These people are no more dead than you or me. Their future suffering may end up being humanity's salvation. The impetus to commitment of "Never Again."

      That seems to me to be about as humanly powerful a thing to do with the time in between birth and death as any other thing humans have ever done or could do. Thanks for hearing me.


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      • James2

        Your advice is well taken. JoyB.

        Obviously I know those things you say are true.

        However I'm more skeptical than you that someone breathing this plutonium that has been disbursed has any chance of survival. I read the report where they gave the dogs plutonium lace air and they all died – 100% of them- most with multiple cancers.

        Sometimes here I do intentionally raise the volume level – perhaps a bit higher than it needs to be, and I've been called out-of-line before for saying similar things.

        However – even if saying they are "dead" is insensitive – what I'm really doing is shouting out a warning – this stuff is out there – it should not be ignored.

        If I am wrong, we'll know soon enough.

        For those whom I've been insensitive – I apologize, however, I do feel it very necessary for those to know how seriously they've been exposed to this deadly substance.

        Perhaps when they feel the sheer terror of wondering whether their body is exposed, they will join the fight to eliminate these fire breathing dragons from earth. .


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        • Tumrgrwer Tumrgrwer

          James, you failed to mention the "bukky balls" of love floating around the earth. These balls filled full of plutonium get into us even better than the past experiments with our animals. I think you may be more right than wrong here. Japan should be a no mans land! I'm here on the north coast of California being exposed to the fukushitty love.


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        • Thanks, James. I know what you're trying to do, it's just that 'The Truth' is bad enough that it must make itself known no matter how much TPTB try to cover it up. The (entirely relative) TIME it takes to 'be accomplished' is important too. All those exposed are right now still alive (minus the normal attrition). Fewer of the babies are alive or will be allowed to live, but that's going to make itself known too. All the thyroid cancers, soft tissue and bone/organ cancers, all the leukemias and NHL's… they can hide some of it, but not all of it. It's a mighty albatross around their necks and it will sink them. Death is its nature and its purpose.

          Radiation is weird stuff. Even one self-destructing isotope inside you can do enough damage to cause cancer. Yet not everyone exposed suffers the same cellular damage (that is indeed random). Some people have astoundingly robust repair and/or destruction and disposal biological capabilities. Some are weak here or there, damage gets magnified. This is all dealing with quantum 'mysteries' and biochemical peculiarities, and those are stochastic rather than deterministic. I was diagnosed with leukemia when I was 7 (bomb testing days). They wrote me off, but I got well one day for no apparent reason. They shrugged and sent me back to school, a little worse for wear and tear. I am more than half a century older now, still grateful for every single day. I have now lived longer than my parents, two of my siblings, and my son. I'm hoping not to live long enough to be the last one standing…

          I view life as a precious gift. Every moment of it. So I have little patience with wasting time and power, or diminishing the time and power of others. Nuclear technology was conceived, invented and deployed for the express purpose of its deadly potential. Biggest bang (most dead) for the buck. In all its forms.


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          • NoNukes NoNukes

            The studies on Snoopy make it clear that what James2 said is accurate, that if you inhale Plutonium, you will likely develop "radiation pneumonitis" and die from it or from bone tumors, lung tumors, liver tumors, etc..

            Inhaling plutonium is about as close as we come to a death sentence. It is not much more complicated than that when it comes to inhaling plutonium.

            1992 Jan;129(1):53-60.
            Influence of dose rate on survival time for 239PuO2-induced radiation pneumonitis or pulmonary fibrosis in dogs.
            Diel JH, Guilmette RA, Muggenburg BA, Hahn FF, Chang IY.
            Source
            Lovelace Biomedical and Environmental Research Institute, Inc., Albuquerque, New Mexico 87185.
            Abstract
            Beagle dogs were exposed once or repeatedly to 0.75-microns-diameter monodisperse aerosols of 239PuO2 by pernasal inhalation. The dogs that were exposed once received alveolar depositions (+/- standard deviation) of 3.9 +/- 1.9 kBq/kg body mass and accumulated doses of 23 +/- 8 Gy to the lung before death at 5.4 +/- 1.7 years after exposure…Clearance of the plutonium from the lung in the dogs exposed repeatedly was slower than in the dogs exposed once. All dogs in the repeated-exposure study and all but one dog in the single-exposure study died from radiation effects. Pulmonary fibrosis accounted for 72% of the radiation-related deaths in the single-exposure study and 87% in the repeated-exposure study. The remaining dogs died with pulmonary cancer. Based on total cumulative radiation dose, the times after exposure to death from radiation pneumonitis and pulmonary fibrosis were not significantly different for single and repeated exposures. Thus dose rate does not appear to be an important factor in predicting death from radiation pneumonitis or pulmonary fibrosis for dogs inhaling 239PuO2.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1728058


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            • I am not a dog, and neither is any human man, woman or child in northern Japan. I don't think you are either (but if so, great typing skills!).

              The truth will be known as it occurs. Predicting it as a done deal now is pointless and cruel, sets us all up for effective debunking down the line (which we'll deserve). WARNING is something else – it doesn't tell people they're "already dead." Which is equivalent to " shut up, roll over and die." I say NO.

              You guys like to assert determinism for things that are simply not deterministic by nature. Until you're dead, you are alive by all reckoning. Asserting otherwise to people alive enough to read what you write is pretty damned despicable. I doubt I'm the only one who sees that.

              I don't plan to be dead until I am actually dead. Thus anybody calling me dead before I get there is just making noise. That is true for every single person who has been dosed by Fukushima but is still alive right now. They are NOT dead, it's a gross insult to call them dead. Like saying "that possibly deformed baby wouldn't have much of a life, and not a long one. Kill it now, it's already dead." That's total bullshit, should be shouted from rooftops. Give them time enough to live whatever time they're allotted. They're being actively killed as we speak right now, for that very line of end-game bullshit.

              I am not dead yet, neither are the Daiichi Hibakusha. You can always find a way to kill all the dogs in your experiment if you keep right on dosing them until they die. The more of us who proclaim we are not sitting still for that stupid experiment, the more power we still have to change things for the future.


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          • hbjon hbjon

            @JoyB. They are most certainly dead. How could they not be with the modern understanding of radioactivity? In this world we have the knowable and the unknowable. The unknowables are simply obstacles blocking us from getting the truth. Putting it another way is when you ask the two questions…What can I know? and How can I know it? The first question must be asked in a way that is answerable. For instance. Can I know if (why) (how)(when) people and whales are dying? The second question must be answered in a way that leaves "no doubt" in the answer. For instance, I know people and whales are dying "because" (A),(B),(C), etc. Can one accept the answer to question 2 if it is because hbjon says so? Of course not. One needs to experience it with ones own senses. I have Leukemia because a doctor says so. How did I get Leukemia? I need chemotherapy because it is a cure for Leukemia. Has anybody ever been cured of Leukemia by chemo? Preconceived ideas create a great prejudice in ones mind. Stating false information 1000 times does not make it a fact. There are physicians that visit this thread that believe they do no harm with radiation. They will protect their golden goose by hiring people to discredit information (or the source) that speaks out against it. Much like the industry many of you here have taken sides against. There are groups of people that feel so strongly about things that even when an undisputed, commonsense, plain as day fact is before them, they will fail to realize it. This phenomenon one can attribute to the force of prejudice. Prejudice has great ability to bias ones opinion. Prove James2 wrong if you can.


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            • Wow. I must be in the Twighlight Zone. Or maybe just somewhere I don't belong.

              Y'all go right ahead calling living people dead, see how many you can convince to roll over and quietly check out so you can be proven "right" on some bullshit or other form of inhumane dismissal of other people's lives. I won't be any part of it, and hereby denounce it as sick and twisted to the max.

              Bye.


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              • Linda

                JoyB…I've heard you and agree with what you've said…I too shant be dead til I'm dead…none of us gettin outta here alive anyway…I intend to be wholly alive til then.

                Sometimes I come in here and read thru everything and this particular conversation…you guys aren't REALLY reading what's been said.


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              • hbjon hbjon

                Let me quote the great Stephen King. But someone surely said it before him. "Sometimes dead is better". Ask a doctor why they pull the plug on some patients. Inhumane? Bed ridden terminally ill. I say let them live. People that don't need machines to keep them alive, I say let them live too. However, dead in the sense I am referring to simply means that there is a possibility that they are sick and dying or dead, but the worst is assumed until proven different. A sort of rebellion against the cover ups. I'm afraid it is a modern day, in color, Twighlight Zone. Frankly, I do think they are living, but I think zombies are alive also. What does that tell you? How bout this one. I think they are alive, at least as much as the whales are that wash onto the beaches and have tongues the size of their heads. Their as alive as the seals that were balancing tsunami debris on their noses until they lost all their hair and developed oozing sores. Are they alive too? I assume they are dead now. Very tragic. Hey, I like reading your posts. I just have trouble believing illnesses caused by this disaster are temporary. My Dad died of cancer. The radiation and chemo made him less of a human being. But this isn't a personal issue to me. To me this is a puzzle and a sorta guessing game. Relying on the internet is ok to gather some information, but hopefully you start out with some wisdom and knowledge to begin with. It's not about the dismissal of peoples lives. How do you know we here (I'll speak for me and my cat) don't grieve the chaos and hardships felt by the good people of Japan on a daily basis? We do.


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                • Demonstrate that all these "Dead People Walking" are on their last legs ready to be unplugged, hbjon. You can't because they're not. And won't be (those fated to suffer) for 5, 10, 15, 20 or more years from now. You and I or any of them or anybody else in the modern world can get hit by a bus tomorrow. Does that make us "less" alive today than any these people you want to declare dead?

                  This is really a very, very strange line of discussion.


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                  • James2

                    Joy can you give us some study data on plutonium inhalation.

                    You are definitely downplaying it from what I've read. I will admit that you apparently have more experience with such things, however I have read nothing that says it will take 5-10 years or longer to manifest.

                    What I've read says 18 months to 36 months. In the case of Fukushima, that's starting 6 months from now.

                    I read 3 different reports, cover to cover and they said the same thing.

                    I agree, normal radiation exposure – unless severe – takes a long time to show up.

                    Inhaled plutonium does not – unless you have access to data that I don't have – and if you do – I would love to read it.


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                    • No, James. Show me your plutonium victims. Right now, because you are claiming them right now. I am saying they aren't dead yet, probably not even sick yet. May not be for years. Maybe never in their lifetimes.

                      Demonstrate to me that this is not so. Show me the bodies. Show me the wards. You can't because they don't exist yet. We are still here in time, and so are all of them.

                      I have never denied the eventual death toll would be huge and entirely unacceptable. I never denied that there would be suffering along the way. And I have surely never claimed that what will be won't be. I'm just not writing off thousands of people's lives right now as if they aren't right here with us and perhaps willing to help make the ultimately necessary point. On purpose.

                      As if their lives count. As we all hope that ours will.


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                    • James2

                      The difference is, Joy that there are a few recorded studies that show that inhaled plutonium in mammals (dogs, yes, not humans) will contract cancer – not just cancer – but incurable cancer in 18-36 months after exposure.

                      I wish there were data on humans, but of course you cannot conduct studies like this on humans.

                      However you are saying that these studies either do not apply to humans (which you cannot possibly know to be true any more than untrue) or that you have some other data that supports that it might be years before humans contract cancer. If you have that data share it.

                      One of us is correct, and one not. In 18 months we will know who is correct, however that is too long to wait for those affected.

                      Would you not think that if there is a chance that I'm correct and you are not – that those individuals who in that case have cancer growing in their bodies right now – and will die from it within 6 months to 2 years – wouldn't you say they should know about that? Would you want to know? I would. It would change what I do for the next 6 months for sure.


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                  • hbjon hbjon

                    The first time they tell their Grandson,"I can't play catch right now, I'm not feeling well". They died a little bit. The first time they call in sick from illness, they died a little bit. The first shot of chemo, they died a little bit. The first time they tell their wives they can't get up, they died a little bit. When Mom tells child they can't go outside and play, they died a little bit. Must I continue? Very, very heartbreaking JoyB.


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                    • hbjon hbjon

                      "Sorry son, I can't go to your wedding I'm in the ECU, just had my lung removed". Must I continue? Is it not obvious how death can be an incremental process? It has been long since established that xrays cause cancer. And I don't dispute that it may take 20 years to develop in such cases. Curium, Plutonium, Neptunium etc. are possibly immediate Imho.


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                    • hbjon hbjon

                      You want bizarre? You came to the right place. Even after this unthinkable disaster that has proven how very dangerous the technology is, there are plans to bring more of the ticking time bombs on line in the near future. Now stick that one in your bizarre pipe and smoke it.


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                    • Of course death is usually an incremental process. What I am objecting to is y'all's flagrant penchant for ill-readings on the palm reading circuit. They don't pay you well for death and destruction. It's supposed to be all sweetness and light…

                      If I were to die 20 years from now from COPD – or just never recovering from surgery for lung resection, as my sister didn't – then I'd spend the rest of my time railing against all the known causes of COPD and lung disease from environmental pollutants. Any and all of them. I would do it hoping my effort makes a difference in the future, so others don't have to suffer.

                      The Marlboro Man was tremendously effective as a spokesperson against smoking for as long as he was a pulmonary cripple who could shock us. When he's dead he's just another statistic nobody pays attention to.

                      My warning is not to try and write Fukushima's Epilogue yet. It isn't over, on any level that counts. Just because there's a lag now (and walls being erected against news) doesn't mean we need to strike out for our own fantasies of "Worst Case Scenario." I assure you all, as a one-time nuke specializing in meltdowns, the "worst case scenario" has happened. That no one's obviously dead right now is their excuse to try and sweep it away while people are distracted.

                      Don't let them. The only way we can do that is to stay connected. With those who are not dead yet…


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                    • James2

                      Joy – you keep saying 10-20 years.

                      I'm say 6 to 18 months.

                      There is a huge difference.

                      The difference is the inhaled plutonium. Either you have data that we do not have, or you are speculating that the data we do have is wrong.

                      If so, why?

                      Chernobyl did not release much plutonium.

                      TMI did not release any plutonium to the best of my knowledge.

                      Bomb tests did not release this type of plutonium.

                      Every piece of data I get my hands on indicates this stuff is going to be fatal – very soon – for everyone that sucked that plutonium dust down.

                      Please give some facts or personal experience that refutes it – otherwise I assume you don't have any.

                      … and you merely have your hand held tightly on the "don't panic" button.


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                    • And just so you know, hbjon, I'm married to one of the most notable fire-eaters on the circuit in the U.S. today…

                      http://www.southernstudies.org/2009/04/post-4.html


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                    • And just so you know James, TMI2 released the full accoutrement of fission products along with as-yet unspent fuel. As nukes must release in a meltdown situation. Because they're nukes. And they've got the shit to release.

                      YOU never heard about it because you weren't "allowed" to hear about it. That doesn't mean much in the real world. Honest.


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                    • James2

                      I certainly cannot refute that statement.


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                    • hbjon hbjon

                      JoyB. Perhaps you remember an old nuclear sub mechanic by the name of Mr. Shankman? He was my Mothers friend back in the 70's and bought me a chemistry set when I was 12 years old. Anyway, I can't stomach any more of this right now. That piece was a lot to digest for an overweight dump truck driver. Now I lay me down to sleep, counting bucky balls instead of sheep………


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                    • hbjon hbjon

                      I find it necessary to us my Dr. Spock if-then algorythm to solve this mystery. If people were able to successfully shelter in place and evacuate, then they may in fact be alive like JoyB claims. After all, the wind was blowing north and west on 3/15/,3/16/ and 3/17. Were the fishermen and sailors given enough warning? That is a different story.


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                  • CB CB

                    JoyB, it is my understanding that the upper mid west and Canada, even as far as Penn has has infant mortality rates increase up to 70%.
                    I personally know 1 victim of thyroid cancer, and 1 close friend from pneumonia. One cannot gather information not made available.
                    The animal deaths are globally increasing, and food supply dyeing. If you are here, you must have took into account the whole picture made available to you. I hope you listened to the observations of the many here, an have considered their input into your own.
                    JoyB, do not assume one knows your thoughts, knowledge, wisdom, or answers. Contribute in a constructive environment. Many of us are
                    have the same questions, on the same page. Please don't answer a question with a question, even if its from James2. Please advise.


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                    • CB, the infant mortality and miscarriage rate went up 280% in the first 9 months following TMI2. I've got pictures of 2-headed calves if you want to see. Plenty of stories, all of them believable, and then there's the whole "cattle mutilation" end that nobody talks about. All documented. Nobody cared.

                      Only people who pay close attention notice this sort of thing, or follow it, or know how it turns out in the end. Most people accept what they're told. Really.

                      There will be many illnesses and deaths from Fukushima. We won't know about most of them, officially. But they can't hide them all. All I am doing is not waiving away the value of any human being's life in this awful mess, by writing them off as dead years before the fact. That's ugly.


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  • James2

    Is there anyone here from San Diego? Can you check on the crew of the USS Reagan and determine their health status?

    Is there anyone here from Seattle? Can you check with the folks at the Everett shipyard where the Reagan is in for maintenance and see if they have Radiation precautions being observed?


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  • TheBigPicture TheBigPicture

    Reactors must be outlawed. Gotta happen.


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    • DannieJ DannieJ

      They won't though – And it doesn't have to happen.

      You cant just replace the energy produced by reactors for the following reasons:

      1) The economy can, must and will grow.
      2) Energy cannot be created, only transformed. (thermodynamics will not negotiate or bend ..)
      3) Peak oil. (Deny it all you want, production is in decline for three years now. No significant fields have been found for the better part of thirty years and no new field have been opened since 2008)
      4) Technology is the opposite of energy and any other belief is simply juvenile.
      5) DENIAL, in huge blinking Bullwinkle letters written across the sky.
      6) Apathy and fear.


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      • Protection of power, privilege, pension. that is driving most decisions. Regardless of how unlikely the outcome.


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      • gottagetoffthegrid

        DannieJ,

        of course you could replace the power produced by reactors. Japan has done it, and in under 1 year. they only have 2 of 54 reactors running today, the last 2 are to be shut in by the end of April this year.

        please clarify these points i'm not sure where you are coming from:

        "1) The economy can, must and will grow."
        this is not the case at all. it "must grow" because of the way we measure progress and development. there is no societal or biological imperitive to "grow".

        "2) Energy cannot be created, only transformed. (thermodynamics will not negotiate or bend ..)"
        exactly see my comment on point 1 — eternal growth is impossible

        :3) Peak oil. (Deny it all you want, production is in decline for three years now. No significant fields have been found for the better part of thirty years and no new field have been opened since 2008)"
        Peak oil is indeed real. However, very very little of the petroleum production currently goes to generating electric power, but it does go directly into mining the fuel. So peak oil works against Nuke power. no oil no uranium no nukes

        "4) Technology is the opposite of energy and any other belief is simply juvenile."
        I have no idea what you are getting at here. Do you mean that technology drives increased efficiency and therefore reduces the amount of engergy required to complete a task?

        "5) DENIAL, in huge blinking Bullwinkle letters written across the sky."
        if you mean denial that nuke power is stupid and should be shut-in world wide immediately, then I agree.

        "6) Apathy and fear"
        if you mean apathy and fear of living within our means, then I also agree with you here.


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  • Whoopie Whoopie

    #Fukushima: Nuclear Power's Green Mountain Grassroots Demise http://huff.to/GEwvtM via @huffingtonpost


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  • Mack Mack

    "The US Energy Information Administration, released their findings for 2010 that show only 9% of US power consumption was provided by nuclear power. This flies in the face of the constant claim by nuclear industry lobby groups that the total is 20%. This 20% claim always comes with the claim that the US can’t survive without nuclear power."

    http://www.simplyinfo.org/?p=4706


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  • Mack Mack

    The 9% of nuclear energy used in the U.S. could easily be replaced with conservation, efficiency, solar, wind, geothermal, etc.

    SOLAR:

    New breakthrough cuts the cost of solar in half:
    http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2012/03/ion-beam-manufacturing-halves-production-cost-of-pv-panels.ars

    WIND:

    "Japanese Breakthrough Will Make Wind Power Cheaper Than Nuclear"
    http://www.mnn.com/green-tech/research-innovations/blogs/japanese-breakthrough-will-make-wind-power-cheaper-than-nuclea

    GEOTHERMAL:

    "…geothermal resources could supply more than 300,000 MW of power…" around the world
    http://thinkgeoenergy.com/archives/10043


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  • Mack Mack

    Has Japan learned anything?

    "Government panel projects 2030 Japan incorporating up to 30% nuclear power"

    http://enformable.com/2012/03/government-panel-projects-2030-japan-incorporating-up-to-30-nuclear-power/


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  • Tumrgrwer Tumrgrwer

    Yes Mack, they have learned how to decieve, they are all professional liars of the worst kind. This nuclear generation has "generated itself to death".


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  • To James2 per his post:
    http://enenews.com/plutonium-ratio-200-times-higher-than-govt-claims-detected-50km-south-of-fukushima-daiichi-surprises-japan-professor-who-made-finding-results/comment-page-1#comment-224650

    James, James. You want me to sentence people to death on your personal timetable. I will not do so, I don't own that power and make no claims to it. Yeah, people will die, that's inevitable. You'll know about them as they happen just like I will because we're watching. But I'm not going where you want me to go with it. I told you – I've seen miracles. That means I cannot ever sentence anybody to death.

    I would like to see your justification for demanding otherwise. Because I'm having a lot of trouble figuring that one out, from where I stand. Really.


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    • James2

      OK – so you have no data to refute me. I would be pleasantly surprised if you did.

      i'm not asking you or anyone to "sentence people to death". Personally I believe those who build these powerplants and cover up the extreme risk did that awful deed – and those that are covering up the damage are taking away whatever bit of life those folks have left, which is despicable.

      I told you exactly where my speculated timeframe came from. There have been three rounds of inhaled plutonium testing that I've found – and each one had the almost an identical result – very quick onset of lethal cancer, in lungs, blood, bones and liver – many died with multiples of those.

      I will be ecstatic to be proven wrong on this. Please do it. But note also I say "prove" me wrong.

      Until then – it is my educated opinion that those who've been exposed to the airborne plutonium coming out of Fukushima, starting on March 14th, 2011 at 11:01 am – those folks need to make every minute of their lives precious starting today.


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      • dharmasyd dharmasyd

        All people everywhere, not just "…those who've been exposed to the airborne plutonium coming out of Fukushima, starting on March 14th, 2011 at 11:01 am – … [but all of us] folks need to make every minute of…[our] lives precious starting today." I am 79 with COPD and emphysema; the management of our senior apartment complex is forcing apartment refurbishing in which they will install granite (radon emitting granite) counter tops in our kitchens. No exceptions allowed, even though a couple of us have supplied lots of data.

        The other side is citing documents from the EPA which state granite is such a low level emitter that no harmful effects can be anticipated.

        I'm not dead yet, James2 And although I called the workers, walking the 3rd and 4th floor walkways of #4 above the SFP, "dead men walking;" I can see and admit the validity of JoyB's point. It's not a question of who is right and who is wrong. That is an erroneous approach. I just believe that compassion and understanding are more important than having to be right, or just plain, simply being right. An "A" on a test doesn't matter all that much.


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      • In your time frame I would expect to see leukemias/lymphomas appear first, among the "shelter in place" demographic and those right outside the exclusion zone who have absorbed much more dose than the people who were evacuated (their dose was primarily acute as opposed to chronic).

        But then I see the large percentage of children already displaying thyroid dysfunction and get a shiver that tells me we may instead be treated to a drastic epidemic of thyroid cancers in children first. We'll all be told how "lucky" it is that thyroid cancer is one of the most treatable (dead rate is low, but the treatment is no fun and lifelong dependence on pharmaceuticals is not so fortunate). But the blood/lymph cancers will come, and the victims will be primarily children there as well. When lung cancers hit we can expect as a matter of course for the Japanese authorities (with help from WHO, etc.) to issue blanket blame on smoking and/or wood smoke. Which, considering how much contaminated debris is being burned, isn't that much of a stretch.

        I don't know how well prepared the Japanese health care system is to deal with what's coming. Or even if they'll bother to try. It will be up to the people who aren't dead yet to insist, and up to us and everyone everywhere paying attention to stand behind them.


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      • In the meantime, pay attention to what the worldwide nuclear industry is up to. They have instituted – with the help of their host governments – a mainstream press blackout on Fukushima while at the same time launching a hard-sell push to get their 'Renaissance' going BEFORE the death toll climbs so high it can't be successfully hidden any longer.

        Remember that the industry and its live-in lobbyists long ago managed to insert its own self-serving definitions into the regulatory framework for severe reactor accidents. Which depend exclusively on the number of people who drop dead where they stand and in no way recognize any suffering or death that does not occur immediately. They did this because they know most of the damage takes awhile to show up. And as long as it takes awhile, they can always divert the blame onto something else. Up to and including blaming the victims for their own suffering and death.

        Nukes are the only technological application of 'pure science' that routinely gets away with asserting anti-scientific falsehoods ("radiation hormesis," for instance) as SOP and not having the actual scientific community jump immediately down its throat.


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  • Joy and James

    Clearly you both are motivated by higher goals.

    Joy wants to remind us to never write off a human life because of the role of contingency and other forces we do not understand.

    James wants to recognize the severity of this unprecedented crisis that has released radiation for over one year now.

    I hope readers recognize that their disagreement has less to do with the perceived severity of the crisis, and more do to with distinctive ways of framing the situation.

    I believe we can acknowledge simultaneously the value each one offers for our understandings of this unprecedented disaster.

    Joy I am grateful for your knowledge and experience and James thank you for forcing us to confront the unfathomable reaches of this disaster…

    :)


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  • dharmasyd dharmasyd

    JoyB…thank you so much for the article about the experiences you and Randall had (still have, I guess) re TMI. Your story is both very touching and highly informative.

    If you saw my comment a few places up thread, you will see that I and my fellow tenants at a Senior apartment complex in Berkeley, Ca are being forced to accept granite counter tops in our kitchens as part of a quite egregious refurbishing plan.

    If you and/or Randall can write a letter explaining the dangers of even low level radiation which I could give to our management, it would be greatly appreciated. Or maybe you could ask an associate. I had met Dr. John Gofman, and I'm sure he would have done this for me; but he is resting hopefully in peace. Thanks. I'll send this off. But in case you don't see it, I'll try to ask Admin to contact you. I'm also trying Leuren Moret, another acquaintance here in Berkeley, but so far no response. Anyway: My email is <dharmasyd at yahoo dot com>.


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    • Hi, dharmasyd. We published "Home Health Physics" last year to help people understand about radiation and how to protect themselves from it, though I've heard it's a pretty difficult slog even though we tried hard to keep it as simple as possible. So I boiled down the actual methodologies (sans all those physics technicalities) for an article -

      http://www.topmastersinhealthcare.com/posts/15-ways-to-limit-radiation-exposure/

      …which was then turned into a nifty printable-outable 'infographic' -

      http://www.besthealthdegrees.com/survive-nuclear/

      HHP does go into chronic versus acute exposures and the type of health effects one can expect, depending on what isotopes are prevalent and their emitted radiation types. That's one of the things that people tell me were so hard to understand. I am planning further articles on these specifics, hoping to break them up enough to be useful without giving people headaches. Don't know how successful that'll be, but I do have reliable publishing outlets for whatever I come up with.

      Nukes rely heavily on how technical all this stuff is, it's how they're able to keep going when if people DID understand the technicalities they never would have been allowed to boil water with smashed atoms in the first place. They must be put out of business asap. I don't know that people understanding technicalities is necessary for that. I hope not. People just need to know that it's deadly and aiming for their children – insist they be shut down. I don't know how to organize that, I just know it has to be done.


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    • P.S. You might get a kick out of the new snake oil salesmen jumping on the phony "hormesis" bandwagon now that the nukes are pushing this horsehockey anew in response to Fukushima -

      http://www.nighthawkminerals.com/

      ARGH!!! All the way back to radium hot springs and elixirs to make you glow in the dark… Anti-science every bit as bad as global warming denial, but even more dangerous. And if they made me put in granite countertops, I'd cover it with clear contact paper. Radon won't go through it, it will stop alpha and beta (gamma from trace uranium decays will still come through). Do find out if the countertops are actual sliced and polished stone or ground stone in resin. If it's ground in resin (looks nice, very tough) the same barrier applies by virtue of the resin.


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  • dharmasyd dharmasyd

    JoyB…I am so grateful for all your wonderful information, and I give you many thanks for taking the time to write this for me. I'm sure it will help. I'll let you know what happens. Big Thanks!


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