Reports: ‘Deformed’ containment vessel cover at Fukushima Reactor 3 — Center panel of concrete cover ‘broken and sunken’ (PHOTOS & VIDEO)

Published: February 15th, 2014 at 11:11 am ET
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687 comments


Enformable, Feb. 14, 2014: This week TEPCO released new photos […] The investigation conducted by the utility […] found that the shield plug which covers the primary containment vessel was deformed. […] The shield plug is around 600 mm thick, and the edges have been found to be displaced by 300 mm.

Tepco’s Japanese-only press handout here

SimplyInfo, Feb. 14, 2014: [Tepco] floated two possible causes. One being the explosion itself, the other being the overhead crane falling on the covers as part of the blast. The crane portion that holds the hook is what is assumed to have done the damage. The center panel of the concrete cover is broken and sunken. […]

Watch footage of the investigation attempt here

Published: February 15th, 2014 at 11:11 am ET
By

687 comments

Related Posts

  1. Tepco: Steam may be from gas leaking out of containment vessel at Fukushima Reactor No. 3 July 26, 2013
  2. Japan Nuclear Expert: Simply impossible to remove melted fuel from Fukushima — Corium “has spread all over… could actually have gone through floor of containment vessel” — Only way to deal with these reactors releasing dangerous radiation is to cover in concrete — Will take centuries of work (VIDEO) April 27, 2015
  3. Expert warns of collapse at Fukushima reactor: “It would be the end of Japan”… New photos show serious structural damage at Unit 2… “It’s a fantasy” that they can decommission plant — AP: Melted fuel has broken pieces of structure in containment vessel (VIDEO) March 10, 2017
  4. New pics of Reactor No. 3 show crane has collapsed onto leaking containment vessel (VIDEO) October 20, 2011
  5. Tepco: “Significant density” of Alpha radiation leaking from Unit 3 at Fukushima — Steam seen at reactor building “likely to be leaked” from containment vessel August 14, 2013

687 comments to Reports: ‘Deformed’ containment vessel cover at Fukushima Reactor 3 — Center panel of concrete cover ‘broken and sunken’ (PHOTOS & VIDEO)

  • retali8 retali8

    unrepairable damage folks..

    still to this day no technology exists to get anywhere near those hot reactors, let alone elvis (molten coriums) that left the buildings completely, hang in there folks, it will definetly be a bumpy ELE ride.

    • OneWhoRelates

      I'm starting to think this might not be an ELE but rather and FEE (Forced Evolutionary Event).

      If we look at Chernobyl we can see that several species have undergone mutation and in some rare cases positively so, please do not take this as I condone in any form what has happened. There is a saying amongst chaostitions, followers of chaos theory school of mathematics, "Life will find a way."; popularized in Jurassic Park.

      Burying it for the next 3 million years might be a good idea, but to properly bury it would require at a minimum of 50 cubic miles of uncontaminated earth and we would have to dump a large part of this the ocean to help create a plug of the ground water.

      • john dpugh

        onewhorelates It doesnt work like that . Isotopes keep bombarding and animals and plants keep mutating . Eventually they all die. Its not a one time event to create SOME advantages so it would reshape evolution . Eventually everything alive dies.

        • Jebus Jebus

          Yep, mankind is compressing Mother Nature's millions of years of decaying, stardust radiation induced, natural selection, into a manmade, unnaturally selected, decaying, handbasket of time…

        • FallOut FallOut

          Institute Of Marine Science UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI
          THE UPTAKE, ACCUMDLATION AND EXCHANGE OF RADIOISOTOPES BY OPEN SEA PHYTOPLANKTON

          Sponsored by the : International Atomic Energy Agency

          The ability to accumulate and concentrate the cesium and strontium from
          the sea water medium was primarily through absorption with adsorption playing
          only a very minor role. Hence, when radioactive cells were placed in fresh
          media the loss of radioactivity to the medium was small and a steady state
          was established very quickly, usually with 24 hours. Since absorption seems
          to be primarily responsible for the accumulation strontium and cesium by the
          phytoplankton it is of the utmost importance that more is learned, of the
          basic mechanisms involved.

          And now that it is known that phytoplankton are not confined to the euphotic zone (Kimball, Corcoran, Wood, 1963) and that the radioisotopes of cesium and strontium do penetrate to great oceanic depths (Bowen and Sugihara, 1960, Miyake , e_t aj^ 1962), this study becomes still more important. The use of cultures for this type of study of fundamentals is ideal but extra- polation of these results to the open sea environment should not be done without first making a thorough _in situ investigation.

          http://archive.org/stream/uptakeaccumulati00corc/uptakeaccumulati00corc_djvu.txt

          • FallOut FallOut

            Phytoplankton are photosynthesizing microscopic organisms that inhabit the upper sunlit layer of almost all oceans and bodies of fresh water. They are agents for "primary production," the creation of organic compounds from carbon dioxide dissolved in the water, a process that sustains the aquatic food web.[2] Phytoplankton obtain energy through the process of photosynthesis and must therefore live in the well-lit surface layer (termed the euphotic zone) of an ocean, sea, lake, or other body of water. Phytoplankton account for half of all photosynthetic activity on Earth.[3] Thus phytoplankton are responsible for much of the oxygen present in the Earth's atmosphere – half of the total amount produced by all plant life.

            • We Not They Finally

              YES on phytoplankton! That alone makes this a long-range disaster. That's actually the greatest absorber of CO2 AND the greatest emitter of oxygen. It's brain-dead for people to rant on about CO2 emissions and then ignore this. The environmental movement has been shanghaied by lies. Anyone who wants to protect life on Earth has to go with NO NUCLEAR PERIOD.

            • HoTaters HoTaters

              FallOut, can you please explain (w/o my reading the entire study you cited) why the steady state was achieved by adsorption? Was the water chemistry or biochemical principle or effect working in the study explained?

              I'm really curious to know, because I've wondered how the phytoplankton is being affected by the radiation. The Pacific Ocean has been experiencing massive photoplankton die-offs since at least the 1980's. At that time, it was thought the CFC's (chlorinated fluorocarbons) burning holes in the ozone layer were chiefly to blame. Or at least that was hypothesized at that time. The author whose work I studied also stated water-borne pollution surely played some role, as well.

              • FallOut FallOut

                Not sure about that I just started studying the food chain. Came across this study.

                …. " While our knowledge of the mechanisms for the uptake andaccumulation of radioisotopes by phytoplankton is still vague and incomplete, studies of
                organisms found in the effluent from nuclear reactors and in the radioactive
                sea water following a nuclear explosion have shown plankton capable of concentrating certain radioisotopes from water.

                Lackey (1957) found that Oedognonium in a settling basin at Oak Ridge National Laboratory had a count 10,000 times that of the water in which it was growing. The blue- green, algae growing in the thermal waters of the nuclear reactor effluents of the Savannah River Plant were able to concentrate the mixed fission and corrosion products by factors as great as 10,000 (Watts & Harvey, 1963)

                • unincredulous unincredulous

                  That is just crazy. I wonder if the phytoplankton was still alive with 10,000 times as much radiation as the surrounding water. Or does phytoplankton absorb radiation after it is dead? If so, they could be used to absorb radiation at Fukushima and elsewhere.

                  Maybe that is the elite's survival secret, they have stockpiles of dead phytoplankton to absorb all this radiation after the big die off of mankind…to take the "conspiracy theory" to it's conclusion. I still can't believe that the Pacific Ocean is being poisoned to the point of mass die offs and food supply ruination and no one is making a big fuss about it in the media.

                  • FallOut FallOut

                    I think in the study they test for that, absorption how and why.

                    In the link below on the food chain it talks about phytoplankton density in the eddies that develop in the cross currents, then the food chain life begins. The phytoplankton produce 50% of the world oxygen / introduces carbon compounds the water, main basis for large portion of ocean based food.

                    This is how the bio accumulation starts up-chain killing everything down the road as the accumulation grows.

                  • It doesn't seem out of cast to speak about conspiracy theories considering the real silence and silenced of japan subsequent to the passing of the "shut'em all up" law and laws yet to follow….
                    Yoichi Shimatsu has discussed th truth of this silenced public and it seems so odd that anything has been said and yet the unprecedented ENENews response of over 600+ comments in just few days and rolling….
                    here is Yoichi's Jan 14 comments on the death of the press in japan and the truth that there's been a massive exodus of japanese outta there…
                    http://wyynd.tripod.com/ys2.txt

                    hope to transcript his more recent interviews..

          • FallOut FallOut

            Phytoplankton:

            The Foundation Of The Ocean Food Chain

            http://www.marinephytoplankton.com/phytoplankton.html

          • FallOut FallOut

            ( E.L.E ) • " Extinction Level Event "

          • ioff101der

            I moved this comment of two minutes ago from the back of the pack:

            "Fall Out and intuitive others may be lighting the way to the attenuation of this catastrophe: Is it possible to purposefully 'grow' phytoplankton, kelp and any other sea flora/fauna in such density near the discharge points that harvesting and proper rendering of the radioactive bio-mass would be an appropriate method of preventing greater-ocean contamination?"

      • HoTaters HoTaters

        2 ToOneWhoRelates, in the "old days" up through at least the 1970's, mutations were considered to be a form of genetic damage, when radiation was involved. It was (and is in some medical, scientific, and other circles) considered to be a result of damage to DNA, and not beneficial. Rather, it introduced disease, deformities, and unsoundness in the life form affected.

        The effect upon very small organisms which can mutate and adapt quite quickly to adverse conditions may not be so clear.

        Am curious to know, how has the theory of evolution and in terms of micro- or macro- evolution, how does chaos theory tie in? I'm not familiar with the argument larger organisms (larger than viruses and some bacteria, possibly smaller microscopic parasites and such) can adapt and survive extremely adverse toxic exposure or radiation without deformity or net loss of DNA integrity resulting.

        Let me re-phrase that. I read your first statement above as implying or asserting that chaotic "outlier" events (think statistics) causing adverse effects on living organisms may have positive adaptive outcomes. Those outcomes can be framed as positive micro- or macro- evolution, if I'm interpreting your statement correctly.

        How do you know life can adapt under the extremely adverse conditions of exposure to intensely radioactive elements?

        • HoTaters HoTaters

          2 ToOneWhoRelates, I, too, am hopeful "life will find a way." What are you are saying, though, runs counter (at least in my mind) to accepted theory of linear no dose threshold. That is, even low dose radiation exposure may be very harmful to living organisms.

          When did thinking in genetics shift to incorporating chaos theory, and how does this apply to the theory (and I'll say it's still an hypothesis on the macro-evolutionary level) of evolution?

          Can you please cite any papers from the fields of genetics, biology, medicine, or statistics where chaos theory has been accepted as a constructive macro- or micro- evolutionary mechanism?

          I hope I'm not misinterpreting what you said. Please explain.

      • rogerthat

        From one who relates: ''If we look at Chernobyl we can see that several species have undergone mutation and in some rare cases positively so.''
        …????

    • StPaulScout StPaulScout

      retail8 – Yup.

    • Yoichi Shimatsu's latest discussion in brief transcript…

      for fast absorbing…please take time to listen to the entire interview…things are seriously bleak…

      we need citizens to shake off the "paralysis" and measure the radiation at all levels and with all methods available…

      http://wyynd.tripod.com/ys3.txt

      this is the text only you don't need to spend time weeding thru the website…youtube url of course is also there…

  • SykeWar(DELETED) SykeWar

    So then the #3 explosion was only gas? Huh.

    • infounderload infounderload

      I just watched the youtube of #3 exploding again. There were three distinct booms, or explosions. I doubt it was just gas. I am flummoxed and befuddled.

      It seems suspicious that tepco has a change of heart to sudden truthiness by releasing real information and videos lately.

      • dosdos dosdos

        It was two explosions, one hydrogen deflagration and one nuclear detonation. The hydrogen deflagration began at the north end of the building and traveled to the south end, making it appear to be two hydrogen explosions. The warping of the plug cap was done by the nuclear detonation from below, which created the vertical column of dark smoke. The mast (crane) head fell directly into the spent fuel pool after the support structure was torn asunder by the detonation.

        • Arizonan Arizonan

          I've watched that #3 explosion several times, and have listened to every single one of Gunderson's analyses of the event, along with several others. Dosdos has it down quite accurately. It was both hydrogen, and then a small nuclear detonation, which occurred. What doesn't make sense to me is why the containment cap is still there at all, warped or not. The explosion looks like it went straight up. I would have thought the cap would have been dislodged entirely. Why wasn't it? Any thoughts on this?

          • Arizonan Arizonan

            OK, perhaps the explosion was NOT inside reactor. From other things I have read, it appears that the hydrogen builds up as and after the reactor core has melted down. Thus, it seems, the reactor melted DOWN, the hydrogen went UP and sideways, and the nuclear detonation occurred in the spent field pool. There is isotopic evidence 30-60% of cesium came from spent fuel pools. Reactor cap is clearly still there, so the reactor itself did not explode upwards. Is this everyone else's understanding?

            • The reactor cap is still there because it doesn't have to physically exit the building in order to let out a pressure impulse or two. There are many factors. Remember, the 100 ton lid on Chernobyl's containment was only tipped, but not removed. Depending on the force vector of the Fukushima Unit 3 explosions, the shield plug could have temporarily lifted, and then returned to a position close to original.

              Maybe a bigger explosion would have fully liberated the shield plug, but the explosions we had were only forceful enough to perhaps lift it temporarily, or to warp it, permitting the pressure impulses to be resolved, and then also permitting the shield plug to settle back in place immediately thereafter.

              So we have a warped shield plug with cracks in the center of the bottom side, according to the image.

              TEPCO always has trouble deploying facts along with conjecture. The conjecture is always wishful and in denial. I reject their conjecture that the cap is warped due to the crane falling on it. They don't want to face the unpleasant reality that the cap is warped because a huge pressure impulse (or two) in the containment vessel warped it.

              To admit that, would be to admit the possibility that a hundred or so tons of MOX fuel suddenly broke through the bottom of the RPV in two catastrophic events, one second apart, leading to two massive steam explosions, with massive liberation of the MOX reactor core into our environment.

              They'll come around…

              • HoTaters HoTaters

                Thanks PostNuclear. Your explanation and dosdos' much appreciated.

              • Radio Radio

                PostNuclear, i remember that being suggested by a few such as Arnie, too, way, way back. In fact, the golden lid which must sit on top of the plug was jarred and did not seat back down. So, if what you're saying is what happened, then the curvature on the sides could very easily be the escaping detonation coming round the sides – warping. Well said about TEPCO's conjecture being "wishful and in denial."

              • ExpertNuc

                An RBMK reactor (Chernobyl) is much much different in design than a BWR (Fukushima). If the BWR reactor head was not obliterated there would be no means for the reactor internals (fuel assemblies) to eject their contents. Frankly, the fuel melted in a clump. Either way, the material that was ejected into the atmosphere with the explosion was not from the reactor. There would be zirconium along with the fuel pieces and I dont believe they found fuel cladding in the yard.

                • I reference Chernobyl only to dispel the dogma that since the shield plug is still in place, move along, there's nothing to see here.

                  IIRC the RBMK design uses about 100 tons of fuel, so the scale of the reactors are of the same magnitude. The power excursion at Chernobyl caused a steam explosion, resulting in the containment lid left teetering at the top of the containment. The steam explosion blew reactor material sky high, but the containment lid ended up pretty much where it was before the explosion, albeit now at an angle relative to the design orientation.

                  So when we look at FD and we see the shield plug in its normal position, we shouldn't jump to the conclusion that it wasn't temporarily displaced by a steam explosion inside of what up till then was an in-tact containment.

            • Nigwil

              The explosions were in the room space (the first hydrogen explosion) then the prompt criticality occurred in the SFP due to the rods being shoved together by the H explosion; there were two distinct explosions there which ejected spent fuel rods all over the place, along with the roof. So the damage to the cap of the reactor containment is from down-falling debris and possibly from one of the detonations.

              The containment was already ruptured below by then so I doubt there was an actual explosion within the primary containment of any size to damage the cap – it would have had to blow the steel cap off the primary containment before it took off the lid slabs, and there is no sign of that.

              • Nigwil

                From the vids it looks like large debris rose about 500 metres above the building. From 500 metres up it would have hit the slab travelling at about 100 metres per second (360 km/h or 220 mph), so there is plenty of kinetic energy there for say the crane motor to whack and crack the slab.

                The planes that hit the World Trade were doing 400 to 500 mph (650 to 800 km/h, 180 to 220 m/s) and were a bit more massive than the largest debris that would have hit the deck here.

          • AirSepTech AirSepTech

            http://nukeprofessional.blogspot.com/p/pictures-high-quality.html

            What made the cookie cutter hole in #3 turbine house roof?
            What is the spaghetti stix laying all around?

            In the video of #3 detonation, what are the very heavy items
            blown straight up? And fall almost straight down.
            Hydrogen has no visable flame/soot, other units show this.

            Arizonan you have a point that is valid. There is not much in common with the other unit explosions. There was nothing above #3 SFP to launch but the crane, laying in the SFP.

            It was a directed energy blast. No way the lid is on #3

            What containment exists in that building to direct the amount of energy required for the explosion on the video?

      • Starbird Starbird

        The above video
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms3H50LfEqQ shows clearly that the explosion at R3 DID NOT emanate from the reactor as so many have assumed…

        The major damage to the R3 bld is the NW corner. There is very little video of the North end of R3. This video is one of the few that shows it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-e1HRHcbgc Pause at about :32 This video shows 6' thick concrete posts blown outward on the floor below the reactor floor in the NW corner.

        Look at the photo taken on Oct 10, 2011. http://ex-skf.blogspot.co.nz/2013/12/ot-is-this-level-of-understanding-on.html In this photo, the NW corner is at bottom left. This ovhd shot shows the concrete floor of the reactor bld completely missing in this NW corner. Clearly, there was a massive explosion on the floor below that blew outward the 6' thick vertical columns and blew upward the reactor floor in the explosion shown in videos.
        This video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGhOW3DLlow shows at least two, or if the sound can be believed, three explosions in quick succession. In the slow motion sequence starting at about 1:25, the first explosion is the fireball in the south end of the bld over the sfp. Next is the major explosion – both visually and sonically – towards the North of the bld, followed by the sound of a smaller third explosion.

  • Shaker1

    If this were the only damage to containment and the only leak source I'd be happy, as I'm sure we all would be. Personally, I'd bet that the only value of this access at this point would be in some obscure future for some useless forensic study undertaken by a team of three-eyed chimps pounding upon it with a rock. That's even if in some impossibility it remained in the current physical configuration as it is.

    We who are old enough to remember Brylcream (They still make that stuff?) might find some answer in the language of their old ads:
    "A little dab'll do ya."

    Plop some concrete over the mess. Maybe they're worried that covering it will somehow hamper their 'efforts', or doing that will compromised pressure relief from all the water they're pouring on the hot material that likely isn't in there anyway? Can't make it any worse, can it?

    • fireguyjeff fireguyjeff

      OT for Shaker:
      Believe it nor not, Brylcreem is still available here in the US.
      Walgreens carries it!!
      That there is still any market for it is a complete mystery to me.

      But hey, since so many people have so many Rube Goldberg ideas of
      how to address the Fuku situation, how about a perpetual Burma Shave
      dispensing machine to catch all the nasty stuff in foam??!!
      A giant glob of foam parked on Fuku and we can forget about it and
      get on with our lives.

      • unincredulous unincredulous

        That idea does seem to have high potential. At least for the airborne radiation. Some kind of foam, or a big bubble draining off the radiation. Maybe some kind of charged particle thingie. A zeolite bubble bath? A gel? A gel cap on Fuku instead of concrete that might make future work more difficult…

        • HoTaters HoTaters

          How about a basin like a giant birdbath all around the perimeter of each reactor building, or the entire site? Spray some kind of goo mist or spray (which would precipitate and not cause radioactive steam to develop) onto the reactor buildings and whatever's exposed, 24/7, 365.25 days per year. Whatever's in the goop can bind neutrons or adsorb/absorb the nasties.

          Keep adding water if the goo can shed it off or be washed into the basin after coating the reactors/pools/buildings. Catch the runoff in the giant birdbath structure. Filter the runoff, recycle the goo if possible, or dessicate the goo with the nasties entrapped in it. Then dispose of it in the safest area possible, using the safest possible procedures.

          Or build netting using high tensile strength radiation resistant materials (do they exist?) in them. Drop them over the top of the reactor buildings. Borosilicate strands? Something incorporating graphene? Goo with the things above? Boron goo? Graphene goo? Clay mixed with the stuff above, or peat moss netting with some clay?

          Hard to say how long they would last, but something is better than nothing. We need to keep thinking outside the box, "Rube Goldberg" or not. Sooner or later someone may may have a viable concept.

          How's that for new Rube Goldberg ideas?

          • HoTaters HoTaters

            If any water used in the above, should not be a part of the goo being used. The idea is, don't produce steam unless you can capture and filter it.

          • Radio Radio

            Mushrooms and phytoplankton save the planet! I can see them growing in a medium of salty ponds for the plankton and a fertilizer medium smeared over the buildings sprayed with 'shroom spores. The other thing i wonder about is if anyone is using electromagnetic attractors to start drawing the heavier radioactive elements together. They could be deployed and floated in the ocean to try and grab particles as they flow by, keep them in an area until scooped up, treated, water removed, then given the mushroom treatment for later dry storage. But, maybe the devices would become too hot or the accumulation risks becoming fissile.

            • HoTaters HoTaters

              Hi Radio, I gather you've seen Dr. Paul Stammet's work, then. He's from Washington State University and I think he proposes mycellium to clean up toxic waste, even nuclear waste. Yes, something that should be researched, IMO. I'm not sure I understand the phytoplankton part of this yet, but it apparently acts like a "sponge" for radiation.

              I'm big on peat moss, as that has been used to clean up toxic oil spills.

              Maybe some combo of all three could be used? Or at least by consumers, farmers? And what about incorporating some of these things into air filters? Moist or dry air filtration?

              Post-reactor, that is, for the second part, for protection, detoxification, remediation of soil, water, air.

    • PhilipUpNorth PhilipUpNorth

      Shaker1 said, brilliantly: "some useless forensic study undertaken by a team of three-eyed chimps pounding upon it with a rock"
      🙂
      Seriously, a forensic study should be ongoing throughout the decommissioning. Photograph and study the rubble as it is removed from the building ruins. Otherwise, we may neverknow what happened at Fukushima, nor actions we could take to keep this disaster from happening another 100 times, as the world's nucler plants destroy themselves.

      Oh, i get it. Quietly destroying the evidence is kind of what the decommissioning process at Fukushima is all about. 😉

      • Shaker1

        PUN, I totally agree with you about comprehensive recording of all that goes on at that site. While I can understand that assumptions are necessary when approaching this from a spontaneous and expedient view, such recording will make taking up useless assumptions in a similar situation unnecessary. Continuing the sarcasm in my original comment, I might think that such recording will keep all those too educated and somehow well thought of doing something other than pick up a shovel or a hammer in the thought that 'they're getting things done'. On a more serious level, though, I'm not trying to belittle those who might use such research to avoid the mistakes that have happened and with the hope the research is correctly interpreted.

        Oh, and by the way, I hope that by stating 'plop some concrete over the mess' that wasn't interpreted as an advocation of burying the site now and hoping for the best. I was just referring to covering over that particular shield plug. I've paid attention to your posts regarding actions that should be taken, and have found great suggestions with which I'm in agreement almost totally. It's unfortunate that what comes out of those suggestions isn't action but only a contradiction and example of what's not being done.

    • ExpertNuc

      As long as cold shutdown is defined by its current definition – then yes its still in cold shutdown.

      If you define cold shutdown differently, then you can say whatever you want.

  • newsblackoutUSA newsblackoutUSA

    Nearly three years into this and they decided to look at the containment cover? What am I missing here? I don't believe this is a "new" photo, maybe recently released, but new…?

    I am sure there were many satellite photos taken of the reactors and they all need to be released now.

    • Ontological Ontological

      They shut off ALL ways to monitor this from space about a week or so into the accident. They realized what the thermal data was telling them, freaked and shut em all down to public use. I would be very interested to see the collection of images they have to data also.

    • HoTaters HoTaters

      NewsBlackout, it's likely all debris over reactor had to be removed before containment cover could be examined. Examine photos & video taken shortly after #3 blew. You'll see an enormous amount of debris all over the top of the equipment inside the building & crane fallen on pool/reactor vessel.

      Cranes & robotic equipment helping to remove debris for a long time. It's likely Tepco wasn't able to examine containment cover in detail 'til now. There is only so much that can be done with remote control and robotic cameras.

      It WAS apparent (if memory serves), top of Reactor 3 was displaced & shifted to one side. Many bolts around top of containment vessel were sheared off. I think I recall some pics of top of Reactor 3, It was clear it had lost containment after explosions/detonation(s) there on March 14, 2011. Top of reactor vessel shifted to one side.

      Many good closeup pics and video here showing damage to top of Reactor vessel head.

      Worth reviewing:

      http://enenews.com/nuclear-engineer-radioactive-steam-continuously-leaking-out-of-reactor-no-3-its-important-to-recognize-how-serious-damage-is-at-this-reactor-video

      Worthwhile also to recall Gunderson said the initial explosion occurred over the spent fuel pool. Also stated: steam in center proved containment breached. And much more dangerous to approach in this damaged condition.

      • HoTaters HoTaters

        OK, it's #4 that had top of containment vessel showing loosened bolts. Tepco was getting ready to refuel or was refueling Reactor 4.

        See video from about 2:20 on.

        http://www.popscreen.com/v/6j1V0/Containment-vessel-dome-reactor-4-Fukushima-Daiichi-nuclear-power-plant

        IMO they couldn't examine #3 containment cover before removing debris. Am assuming this also means fallen crane was removed.

        Damage to plant:

        http://cryptome.org/eyeball/daiichi-npp15/daiichi-photos15.htm

        And:

        http://www.zerohedge.com/article/chris-martenson-exclusive-new-photos-fukushima-reactors

        Units 1 & 3 reactor cores completely uncovered for a period of time, from NRC (?) document (FOIA):

        http://enformable.com/2012/07/march-13th-2011-fukushima-daiichi-units-1-and-3-have-experienced-core-damage-the-reactor-cores-were-completely-uncovered-for-a-period-of-time/

        From me:

        HoTaters
        March 6, 2012 at 5:20 pm

        Jackassrig, am pretty sure there were photos of #3 early on showing close-ups of sheared-off bolts and the reactor head either off the reactor. Or it had shifted off to one side (maybe not completely fallen off). Came out right around the time the #3 SPF went Kaboom!

        Think maybe it was a video if not still photos. Video most likely.

        We must stay on this like detectives to understand what happened.

        http://enenews.com/analysis-reactor-3-cap-appears-be-fractured-explosion-falling-crane-examined-possible-video

        Can anyone further address?

        • HoTaters HoTaters

          From Cryptome, high resolution photos:

          http://cryptome.org/eyeball/daiichi-npp/daiichi-photos.htm

          Worth re-posting:
          HoTaters
          March 6, 2012 at 1:01 pm

          From NRC discussion on March 16, 2011, NRC discussing walls and structure of Unit 4 completely gone, spent fuel pool dry. Discussion says because NRC had reported SPF only dry (and not lacking walls, etc) they might go with what had already been reported (just dry), to be consistent.

          http://enformable.com/2012/03/nrc-transcript-tepco-relayed-information-unit-4-sfp-dry-walls-collapsed-and-incapable-of-holding-inventory-unit-3-everything-else-gone/
          The headline:

          NRC Transcript – TEPCO relayed information Unit 4 SFP Dry – Walls collapsed and incapable of holding inventory – Unit 3 “everything else gone” –
          Posted by Enformable on March 5, 2012 in BWR, FOIA, Fukushima Disaster, March 2011, NRC, Top Docs – FOIA · 1 Comments

          The more I read from the NRC transcripts, the more upsetting it gets … CYA, we can't change our story even if it's bad and it's the truth, because we've got to be consistent!

          Arrrgh!

          • HoTaters HoTaters

            HoTaters
            March 6, 2012 at 1:13 pm

            From article linked above:

            CHUCK CASTO: And we certainly know, I think we absolutely know that pool No. 4, though, the walls have collapsed ….
            BRUCE: — you indicated that the walls of the pool were damaged or down?
            CHUCK CASTO: Yes.
            NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: I’m not going to get into that level of detail. I mean the relevant factor is it’s dry.
            CHUCK CASTO: Yes, and they can’t maintain inventory at all.
            MALE PARTICIPANT: Chuck, we got a briefing before from Tony and John, and they indicated that there was structural integrity to the core pool.
            CHUCK CASTO: When was that?
            MALE PARTICIPANT: That was about four hours ago.
            CHUCK CASTO: Well, then, I need to tell the Chairman that because that’s not what we understood just a few hours ago.
            MALE PARTICIPANT: But it’s okay because he’s not going to get into that level of detail. But we just need to be careful about consistency in the assessment of the information. I know it’s going to change, too.
            CHUCK CASTO: Yes, well, we were consistent. That’s what we heard; that’s the last we were told, that the walls were not there.
            MALE PARTICIPANT: Right. Because our discussion with part of your team was we thought you had abandoned the notion of putting coolant back in that pool and that you were looking more at dropping sand or something else like that?
            CHUCK CASTO: No, we didn’t suggest that at all yesterday. The Reactor Safety Team suggested the sand. We were still working with water on…

            • HoTaters HoTaters

              Who's on first? This sounds like an Abbott and Costello skit (above).

              CHUCK CASTO: No, we didn’t suggest that at all yesterday. The Reactor Safety Team suggested the sand. We were still working with water on all four pools.
              And, then, I said let’s go both ways.
              BILL RUAN: Yes, because there’s no fuel pool left.
              CHUCK CASTO: Right.
              BILL RUAN: Unit 3, he believes
              [redacted]
              And basically, everything else is gone, and at least in his opinion, and, of course,
              Chuck knows this, Jim’s opinion is there’s no water in the pool.
              FEMALE PARTICIPANT: Unit 3?
              BILL RUAN: Unit 3.
              Unit 2, he believes it’s drying out….
              BILL RUAN: They’re drying it out.
              And, then, the only pool that might be okay is Unit 1.

              Also discussed problems with…
              Did you get this?

              CHUCK CASTO: No, we didn’t suggest that at all yesterday. The Reactor Safety Team suggested the sand. We were still working with water on all four pools.
              And, then, I said let’s go both ways.
              BILL RUAN: Yes, because there’s no fuel pool left.
              CHUCK CASTO: Right.
              BILL RUAN: Unit 3, he believes
              [redacted]

              YES, BECAUSE THERE'S NO FUEL POOL LEFT.
              RIGHT.
              UNIT 3, HE BELIEVES.
              (REDACTED)

              • HoTaters HoTaters

                Above comments, Chuck Casto, Chairman Jackzo, etc., from NRC documents released under FOIA. Enformable has an extensive collection of the FOIA documents.

                • HoTaters HoTaters

                  "MALE PARTICIPANT: But it’s okay because he’s not going to get into that level of detail. But we just need to be careful about consistency in the assessment of the information. I know it’s going to change, too.
                  CHUCK CASTO: Yes, well, we were consistent. That’s what we heard; that’s the last we were told, that the walls were not there."

                  Isn't like saying, "it's OK if the inventory in SFP #4 is not capable of being maintained (i.e. burning up or something) because "he" (Jackzo?) isn't getting into that level of detail? Therefore it's not going to be disclosed, or we won't need to redact information?

                  What the _ _ _ _ is THAT supposed to mean? (This is why I have to post under an anonymous user name here, because I get so ticked off when I read or re-read this stuff.)

                  Possible translation: how can we tell barefaced lies and not get caught or be held accountable?

                • FallOut FallOut

                  This fire supposedly released all the radiation from these pools at the time, and we are now already in the dire scenario that the other side was claiming might happen.

                  There is a way to settle this controversy. It is by looking at the isotopic ratios of cesium isotopes that were measured in the soil and air at the time, that is, the ratio or cesium-136 to cesium-137 in these samples.

                  A simple binomial test indicated a two-tailed P<.002, rejecting the hypothesis that all the cesium came from the reactors.

                  All Cs-136 measurements besides Tepco’s indicate a significant cesium release from the spent fuel pools. Since the assumptions were conservative, a range of 33%-60% of the cesium was observed to come from the pools.

                  http://optimalprediction.com/wp/cesium-136-137-ratio-demonstrates-radiation-releases-from-spent-fuel-pools/

                  • HoTaters HoTaters

                    Hi FallOut, would you please re-phrase what the statistical results said about ratio of Cesium 136 to Cesium 137 in the samples? And what is the original source of the information?

                    Is the conclusion the releases of Cesium 137 from the spent fuel pools was much more significant than that from the Fukushima reactor melt downs, melt outs?

                    I'll check out what you posted, thanks. HT

              • GQR2

                Soo HoTaters, thus,we know fill in the blanks now exactly what was redacted.
                the obvious but here it is in the Casto comments.
                Unit #3 was in a nutshell completely destroyed for all intents and purposes obliterated. And it remains an open air reactor without any kind of shield. (Not counting dry wall) and even that in many places is not there its elsewhere in a colossally hot ongoing radio active state. Does that pretty much sum it up? i think so.

                • HoTaters HoTaters

                  Sure looks that way, GQR2. Sometimes these things don't become really apparent until long after the fact. It really does sound like that's what Chuck Casto was saying — that the contents of the structure (building) inside Reactor 3, and its SFP, were gone or out of containment( however one would phrase it). Elvis #3 and his evil looking twin have left the building. Oh, I'm making my Dr. Evil grinning at "Mini Me" next to him face.

                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeXfazN7dw0

                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkkxFIojAFY

                  Oh, ingesting all this news again today has made it necessary to take a humor and walk the dog break. Time to take a walk out in Linear Valley. Yee haw! See y'all later.

                  We are Devo, are we not men?

                  "It takes a worried man, to sing a worried song. I may be worried now, but I won't be worried long. Eveything's F'd up, and it's comin; down. It takes a worried man, to sing a worried song."

                • HoTaters HoTaters

                  Not only that GQR2, but a lot of it may been vaporized when the detonation occurred. And there's still speculation as to whether or not that was the SFP which vaporized.

                  Please see Stock's comments on this and the 600 kg or lbs. of vaporized Plutonium, at the NukePro website.

      • unincredulous unincredulous

        Don't worry, these were natural background explosions.

    • We Not They Finally

      It's almost like a psychopath who committed mass murder in a daze and then stumbled back into the mass of dead bodies and says, look at this shocking carnage, who could have possibly done THIS?

      • HoTaters HoTaters

        WNTF, please see my comments above. I so agree with you, and when I consider the SFP's in #3 and #4 might be gone, I truly think it's possible some of the "officials" from Tepco, JapGov, the NRC and DOE et. al might have done just what you said above, duh! doh! in a complete daze of discombobulation, futz-ups, obfuscation, and befuddlement. How much was due to pure incompetence, how much due to terrible communication skills, how much due to stress (the NRC guys who went in the initial response team were obviously freaked out)? How much was due to just plain not caring, denial, or "whatever, we can't fix it so let's just figure out what our official story is going to be" ????

        • We Not They Finally

          Noted. Thanks.

        • HoTaters HoTaters

          WNTF, if I've never said it straight out, I do want to say now your concerns are totally valid! I "get it", I really do. And there is a part of me that's 100% with you, from the beginning. I just am not sure how really bad this really is. Sure looks bad to me! Re-reading the FOIA docs doesn't offer ANY reassurance.

          What I meant was the "officials" were so worried about presenting a united front for the world they might have failed to respond in such a manner that some kind of solution might have been implemented right away. IMO they wasted precious time trying to figure out how NOT to tell the world the truth about what was happening.

          End result, nothing got done right away, there was no appropriate response, and now maybe millions or billions will die. If the SFP's #3 and #4 really did burn up, we're likely ALL toast, sooner or later. And if so, there may be very few people or other living creatures on earth who/which die a natural death.

          This stuff is so insidious. The invisible killer, radiation.

          The problem is, we just won't KNOW for many years. If things don't go beserko in the near future.

          Sometimes I have difficulty living with the uncertainty. Then I have to go and refocus on having a life outside worrying or thinking about this mess (like right now).

  • Sickputer

    The majority of the fissile fuel was leaking out the boron holes in bottom of the steel reactor vessel long before the blast (melt-down and melt-through was well in progress).

    The first Unit 3 explosion occurred possibly from hydrogen gas. Then in a millisecond the spent fuel pond was fully enveloped in orange flame at 26 seconds in the video:

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=9k3Ofs6R9cg&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D9k3Ofs6R9cg

    That was the atomic explosion that sent debris 15 km and vapors around the globe. Also big chunks fell down on the fuel pond remains and the reactor vessel cover. They can spin the meltdown and explosion anyway they wish. But the truth is nuclear radiation from a MOX-fueled reactor was released in huge quantities into the environment. A great deal is still steaming in the ruins and the subsoil.

    Cutting away the twisted steel beams in 2013 (which by degree of twisting was definitive proof in itself the explosion was atomic) does reveal the lower layers. Grim clues of the disaster that happened. They can lie all they desire, but people and other creatures have died and many more will fall victim to the world's worst ecological disaster since the last Ice Age. And man did it… not Mother Nature.

    • SykeWar(DELETED) SykeWar

      "The majority of the fissile fuel was leaking out the boron holes in bottom of the steel reactor vessel long before the blast (melt-down and melt-through was well in progress)." This melt through of pressure vessel and containment to the outside, in sufficient quantity to produce, in my mind, a significant nuclear explosion, would have had to happen in 3 days. Could a hydrogen explosion through gas escaping through the vessel top seam not blow off this plug? This is confusing to me. Any clarification would be appreciated.

      • SykeWar(DELETED) SykeWar

        I'm seeing conflicting information on the 'net concerning #3.

        From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Fukushima_Daiichi_nuclear_disaster (on tuesday march 15) "11:00: A second explosion of reactor 3 (according to The World Meteorological Organization)"

        Was there one or two explosions there?

        • Arizonan Arizonan

          I have been researching the exact sequence of the explosion events, and yes, there is still a lot of conflicting information about what happened when in those first first days.

      • ExpertNuc

        What is a "boron hole" exactly? I have never heard of the term explicitly in any technical data I have read. My opinion was that the gas explosion went through a "nozzle effect" from the constrained geometry after the quake that accelerated the plume past sonic velocities.

        • Sickputer

          The boron holes are the control rod holes in BWR vessels and unlike more modern vessels like PWRs, the old Fukushima-style vessels have their holes in the bottom instead of the top. Really poor design during a meltdown scenario. Hot melted fuel can flow through those holes and bypass burning through six inches of steel.

          • FallOut FallOut

            Are/were you in the industry ?

          • Arizonan Arizonan

            Really really stupid design, to have holes in the bottom of the reactor.

            • unincredulous unincredulous

              The designers have holes in the bottom of their coffee cups. They are eccentric.

              • CodeShutdown CodeShutdown

                nuke designers DO use coffee cups with holes in the bottom, but they are smart; They are normally sealed shut and only if the coffee is scalding hot do they melt open, dropping the contents into your lap by the force of gravity(!), completely eliminating any danger

                these would be the GE mark 5 code-shutdown cups which use thermolytically generated high-nuclearity clusters with a tetrahedral cubic-close-packed metal core in the fail safe release valves.

            • ExpertNuc

              The reason the control rods come up from the bottom and not the top is that the control rods on the top would interfere with the two phase flow development typical of the boiling water reactor. With guide tubes in the bottom, the control rods, which have fuel in them, drop out of the core by gravity and shut the "self sustaining" chain reaction down.

                • TorMentor

                  The reactor scrammed as designed. What didnt work was the diesel generators which were supposed to be the backup electrical supply since everything was washed away, including the grid.

                  • CodeShutdown CodeShutdown

                    "The reactor scrammed as designed. What didnt work was the diesel generators which were supposed to be the backup electrical supply since everything was washed away, including the grid"

                    Thus needlessly destroying the pacific ocean ecosystem, contaminating vast tracts of Japan and the U.S. forever

                    You see, being smart also entails being able to see the big picture

                  • flatsville

                    TorMentor, re: this: >>>The reactor scrammed as designed. What didnt work was the diesel generators…<<<

                    What didn't work was the basiv common sense in siting the reactors for starters…in an active EQ and Tsunami Zone.

                    Also note the plant was in setious trouble before the tsunami hit. Two credible news outlets reported radiation alarms outside the perimiter of the plant going-off before the wave arrived.

                    • TorMentor

                      The "credible news outlets" were not present at the site the time the wave hit. In fact, anyone near the wave outside the plant was probably running for their lives. What I said in my earlier post was a response to how the control rods behaved. Please stay on topic.

                    • zogerke zogerke

                      Tormentor, none of the people who have responded to you have been off topic. You do not control the topic.

                  • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar VanneV

                    “…Another worker told them: ‘the first impact (of the earthquake) was so intense you could see the building shaking, the pipes buckling, and within minutes I saw pipes bursting. Some fell off the wall. Others snapped.’ The workers were ordered to evacuate the plant, but, says this second worker, ‘I was severely alarmed because as I was leaving…I could see that several pipes had cracked open, including what I believed were cold water supply pipes. That would mean that the coolant couldn’t get to the reactor core. If you can’t sufficiently get the coolant to the core, it melts down.” He told them that as he was headed to his car he could see the walls of the unit 1 building had already started to collapse. He said, “There were holes in them. In the first few minutes.’…”
                    http://www.fukuleaks.org/web/?p=7624

                  • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar VanneV

                    Japan Orders Evacuation Near 2nd Nuclear Plant
                    By MATTHEW L. WALD
                    Published: March 11, 2011
                    WASHINGTON — Japanese officials issued broad evacuation orders on Saturday for people living near two nuclear power plants whose cooling systems broke down as a result of the earthquake. The officials warned that small amounts of radioactive material were likely to leak from the plants.
                    The Fukushima No. 1 plant, operated by Tokyo Electric Power and located in Fukushima Prefecture, northern Japan, in October 2008. More Photos »
                    The power plants, known as Daiichi and Daini and operated by Tokyo Electric Power, experienced critical failures of the cooling systems after the plants were shut down, as they were during the quake.
                    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/12/world/asia/12nuclear.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

                  • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar VanneV

                    [Jebus] the US NRC and everyone, knew that an earthquake will have a high probability to break critical cooling infrastructure at a BWR reactor back in 1988.
                    NUREG/CR-4792
                    UCID-20914
                    Vol.1
                    PROBABILITY OF FAILURE IN BWR REACTOR COOLANT PIPING
                    Vol. 1:
                    Summary Report
                    http://pbadupws.nrc.gov/docs/ML0334/ML033450494.pdf

                  • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar VanneV

                    The GE employees at Fukushima Daiichi took off as fast they could go after the earthquake:
                    Fukushima 2, Nuclear Whistleblowers, Health and Safety
                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVDXfXFP4-U
                    Eyewitness Accounts; Fukushima Pipes Burst, Reactors Damaged By Quake
                    July 3rd, 2011
                    "Jake Adelstein and David McNeill authored a ground breaking piece that debunks TEPCO’s claim that the damage at Fukushima was all due to the tsunami or that it could not have been expected. What is most shocking about the article is the first hand accounts of staff working at the plant when the quake hit."
                    http://www.simplyinfo.org/?p=1692

                  • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar VanneV

                    The Geology of Fukushima. Porous ground, lowered 10 metres, built over an aquifer with a fault line present, with basements below sea level
                    August 18, 2013, Paul Langley
                    “…I finally have a coherent picture. 2.5 years of obstruction by nuclear industry aimed at preventing people from having any coherent picture of the sequence of decisions which resulted in this nuclear disaster. 1. They lowered the Fukushima coast by 10 metres to make it cheaper to pump cooling water to the proposed power plant. 2. They built the power plant over an aquifer and on ground with a fault line present 3. They built the basements below sea level. 4. The quake diverted the underground river of the aquifer through the basements 5. Being below sea level the emergency generators and switchgear were doomed to be flooded. 6. cooling failed, the reactors melted down, the 70 holes in each reactor bottom (design of control rod entry) meant fuel and water leaked from bottom of reactors. 7. TEPCO decision to put emergency generators and switchgear in basements. to save money in 1966. 8. 400 tons of water must be poured into reactors per day to keep them cool. 9. this water enters the underground river and flows to the sea. 10. fuel is too radioactive to approach and remove and will remain so for years. 11. the flow of radioactive water to the sea will continue.

              • Sickputer

                EN sez: "The reason the control rods come up from the bottom and not the top is that the control rods on the top would interfere with the two phase flow development…"

                SP: As we know the NRC religiously believed it was impossible for melted fissile fuel to burn through a BWR steel reactor vessel. Look at this picture of the bottom of a reactor (actually named the "bottom head")

                Slide 17 http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/nuclear-engineering/22-06-engineering-of-nuclear-systems-fall-2010/lectures-and-readings/MIT22_06F10_lec06b.pdf

                SP: Does that pin cushion look impervious to a 5000 degree Celsius fireball weighing 100 tons?

                We have about 20 more of those dinosaurs still on the job in America.

                • Sickputer

                  More Unit 4 cover trivia: See Slide 18 of 19 to see the lid of the Unit 4 reactor vessel after it was crane-hoisted to the ground:

                  http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/multimedia/photoessays/fukushima/110313/

                  This fairly pristine cover does not necessarily prove there was no fissile fuel in the reactor on March 11, 2011 (meltdowns don't go up), but if it had been hot loaded despite Tepco assurances it was out of service and empty of fuel rods since November 2010, then it would have received splatter that would have made this lid virtually untouchable by human workers. Workers did clamber around it in web cam videos so it probably was just average hot radiation contaminated by the spent fuel pond fires and not as deadly as Units 1-3 which are unlikely to get their lids removed for about 500 years.

                  I'll try and link some videos of the crane lid work if it's still archived on Youtube when I get on my PC. iPhone research is not so easy for Fuku1live.

              • cooterboy

                ExpertNuc,
                You state that;

                "With guide tubes in the bottom, the control rods, which have fuel in them, drop out of the core by gravity and shut the "self sustaining" chain reaction down."

                How would this be possible if the lower nozzle is in place? Assuming that nozzle's are the industry standard. The new BWR/6 fuel assemblies, by GE, are not configured in a relative manner to allow this. Nor are any other prior fuel assemblies configured in this manner.

                Do you have a patent number for this type of configuration? Would like to look at it. Please don't say it has military applications.

                Thanks,
                Cooterboy

            • SykeWar(DELETED) SykeWar

              One of many. Not all reactors use this design for obvious reasons.

              • TorMentor

                Actually the only reactors that use top-down control rods are research reactors (to demonstrate "SCRAM"), and "Pressurized Water Reactors" (PWR). CANDU (the Canadian reactors) is odd, the control rods actually enter the reactor from the side. Most if not all control rods that enter through the bottom contain fissile fuel followers. This is so that upon a gravity drop, the fuel will leave the reactor and the chain reaction shuts down.

                • Sickputer

                  TM typed these pixels of light: " Actually the only reactors that use top-down control rods are research reactors (to demonstrate "SCRAM"), and "Pressurized Water Reactors" (PWR). "

                  SP: Yes, and the PWRs are also the majority design in the western world, Europe, and the similar designed Russian reactors. They changed over from BWRs for lots of reasons and the reactor control rod location was a big consideration.

                  Now with an ecological nightmare in Japan it should be obvious BWRs with multiple bottom reactor vessel holes are extinction level event machines.

                  Japan is finding that out the hard way. A few of the bad boys have been retired in Germany and several in America. But there's enough still running to kill a few more countries, maybe even 99% of the human race in both hemispheres. A couple more Fukushima-type accidents and mankind will possibly revert to Neanderthal days. Third world countries may fare the best when modern civilization bites the radioactive dust. They won't have to relearn primitive skills…they are already good at living off the land without HBO, Winter Olympics, and bureaucratic chiselers.

      • Sickputer

        SW sez… "Could a hydrogen explosion through gas escaping through the vessel top seam not blow off this plug? "

        SP: The Unit 4 explosion was never really explained fully to outsiders (the world) not privy to onsite first hand knowledge of what really happened (and maybe even eyewitnesses are unsure since it was a sudden wall collapse.

        But we did see video and pictures of the Unit 4 vessel cover removed from Unit 4 (sorry no links, but they are out there). It looked fairly pristine considering the condition of the building and does lend credence to the official pronouncement that Unit 4 was fully unloaded before 311.

  • HoTaters HoTaters

    Good day, all, here's a link to an IAEA.org document (.pdf) describing the decomissioning of the Dairyland LaCrosse plant. It was a BWR, but the specific type isn't mentioned in the first couple pages of the document.

    There are really GREAT diagrams of the BWR reactor and the decomissioning process. See page 8 for a diagram and cross section of the containment plug.

    http://www.iaea.org/…rk/ST/NE/NEFW/documents/IDN/ANL%20...

    This is a really good document for illustrating the step by step decomissioning process which might need to be considered. It will of course be far more difficult to decommission Fukushima Daichi Reactor #3 due to the heavy contamination outside the reactor vessel, the spent fuel pool, and indeed the entire building and plant site.

  • HoTaters HoTaters

    Good day, all, here's a link to an IAEA.org document (.pdf) describing the decomissioning of the Dairyland LaCrosse plant. It was a BWR, but the specific type isn't mentioned in the first couple pages of the document.

    There are really GREAT diagrams of the BWR reactor and the decomissioning process. See page 8 for a diagram and cross section of the containment plug.

    http://www.iaea.org/…rk/ST/NE/NEFW/documents/IDN/ANL%20...

    • HoTaters HoTaters

      Sorry, the message got truncated, and I need to re-post the link.

      You might try this search term (with quotation marks around it) in a browser search:

      EPRI_Decommissioning_Dairyland-1.pdf

      I'll re-post from the IAEA website if the browser search doesn't pull this up.

      • HoTaters HoTaters

        Try this one. It should launch the same .pdf document. The reactor plug and BWR reactor (Boiling Water Reactor) type might be slightly different, but this report gives some idea of what is entailed in decommissioning a BWR.

        http://www.iaea.org/OurWork/ST/NE/NEFW/documents/IDN/ANL%20Course/Day_9/EPRI_Decommissioning_Dairyland.pdf

      • ExpertNuc

        Why are you posting from an IAEA website when you say the IAEA is a shill organization? Do you really have credence in the IAEA enough to link to their technical data? Doesnt independent organizations have better technical data than the IAEA? Or does everyone link to the IAEA as a default?

        • flatsville

          Officially recognized sources be they small governmental bodies or large international agencies have technical data that is dead on…even if the rat bastards are attempting to cover up after the fact. That's what I've learned from years of reasearch and investigation. And you want to pull official docs and info into the mix so you can beat them ober the head with it Mr. ExpertNuc(?).

          • ExpertNuc

            No one here should use anything from the IAEA. Surely there is some other organization out there with better technical information. They aren't experts. What do they have that others dont have? I was under the impression that independent people believe Greenpeace is the expert organization in all things nuclear. They have to be one of the sources independents go to. Dont they have the resources? I dont want to pull any official documents from anyone with any nuclear education into the mix. Nuclear education is tainted. They are tainted with so called "experts". People here are the real experts. They can do their jobs much better. Why aren't people here doing that? Going toe to toe with these "experts".

            • We Not They Finally

              Wouldn't assume that Greenpeace is on the case. Haven't heard a word. Maybe it's what they USED to do.

            • flatsville

              ExpertNuc, You are welcome to ignore whatever sources you choose for your own reading or purposes. If I were prepping for a legal battle or to simply make a broad case for institutional negligence, I would need to review institutional source docs and docs of record.

              No one is forcing you to click the IAEA links.

            • combomelt combomelt

              expert – over and above and beyond their lies and obfuscation – use their data, it is more difficult to refute and far more pleasing if/when their own message hits home.

            • HoTaters HoTaters

              Who is the other organization with better data, ExpertNuc? Maybe since you're so skeptical of the technical data, you can provide all of us with a better source? If you can, please, by all means, do so.

            • unincredulous unincredulous

              I am the real expert here. I'm right, and you nuclear experts are wrong. Toe to toe, tit for tat, you blow, and I'm all that. Now STFU

            • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar VanneV

              Greenpeace is not the expert organization. Actually medical journals with peer reviewed research are experts. The alternate WHO is expert. Physicians for Social Responsibility are experts. Beyond Nuclear are experts. Dr. Helen Caldicott is an expert. The journal of 5000 articles of studies of consequences of Chernobyl was written by peer reviewed experts.

              Here is what has happened to Greenpeace, some of whom are anti-nuclear. But Greenpeace exists in different countries as different entities.

              Your supposed naivete is carefully crafted propaganda. The IAEA is not making an anti=nuclear statement. They are the pro-nuclear sellers. There is nothing wrong with quoting from the IAEA.

              Your propaganda seems today to be directed to discounting all information and all authority. I certainly can't agree with this Greenpeace founder.

              Greenpeace founder: I was wrong about nuclear power
              http://blog.chron.com/sciguy/2006/04/greenpeace-founder-i-was-wrong-about-nuclear-power.

              Rather than make such sweeping generalizations, it would be better to debate single issues. Instead you quote or cite noone. Talk about a single article nor just generalities.

              Laughable lies from film “Pandora’s Promise”
              http://nuclear-news.net/2013/11/11/laughable-lies-from-film-pandoras-promise/

          • HoTaters HoTaters

            Thank you, flatsville.

            • HoTaters HoTaters

              Furthermore, Nuke "expert" Greenpeace has shifted to a decidedly more pro-nuclear or neutral stance recently.

              They are NOT the "go to" entity, FYI.

              You need to see the forest and here and not be so focused on the trees (minutiae), or you'll fail to see the points people are trying to make and you'll waste all your time attacking people's comments and positions. Needlessly.

              We don't need that here, so if your intent is to nitpick everyone, please, Troll-Be-Gone.

              • HoTaters HoTaters

                For nuclear engineering and technical data, yes, the IAEA, DOE, NRC, and other "official" entities ARE the "go to" entities. They have the technical data. They have oversight, technical specifications, etc.

                Are you alleging they fake the specifications and technical diagrams?

                • HoTaters HoTaters

                  ExpertNuc, are you Socref, reincarnated?

                  • ExpertNuc

                    No. Who is socref?

                    • HoTaters HoTaters

                      Troll-Be-Gone
                      Written to the tune of
                      “Supermassive Black Hole” (by Muse, Matt Bellamy)
                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LgcDpTH47g

                      Oh, baby I suffer when you say you hate nukes
                      You say you hate the bomb, oh, it makes me moan
                      But you accuse me under false pretenses
                      Are you sure you want to make me go?
                      Ooh, nukes set my soul alight
                      Ooh, nukes set my soul alight

                      Reactors melting in the dead of night
                      And the gullible sucked into the supermassive
                      (Ooh, nukes set my soul alight)
                      Reactors melting in the dead of night
                      And the gullible sucked into the supermassive
                      (Ooh, nukes set my soul alight)

                      I thought I could fool anyone
                      Oh, baby, I just can't fool you
                      You found out I'm the queen of superficial
                      And that I'd never tell the truth
                      Ooh, nukes set my soul alight
                      Ooh, nukes set my soul alight

                      Reactors melting in the dead of night
                      And the gullible sucked into the supermassive
                      (Ooh, nukes set my soul alight)
                      Reactors melting in the dead of night
                      And the gullible sucked into the supermassive
                      (Ooh, nukes set my soul alight)

                    • HoTaters HoTaters

                      Supermassive nuke swill
                      Penned by supermassive nuke shills
                      Supermassive nuke swill
                      Penned by supermassive nuke shills

                      Reactors melting in the dead of night
                      And the gullible sucked into the supermassive
                      Reactors melting in the dead of night
                      And the gullible sucked into the supermassive

                      Reactors melting in the dead of night
                      And the gullible sucked into the supermassive
                      (Ooh, nukes set my soul) ….

                      (Ooh, nukes set my soul alight)

                      Reactors melting in the dead of night
                      And the gullible sucked into the supermassive
                      (Ooh, you set my soul)
                      Supermassive nuke swill
                      Penned by supermassive nuke shills
                      Supermassive nuke swill
                      Penned by supermassive nuke shills

                  • ExpertNuc

                    I am someone that educated myself in nuclear and do not need anyone to tell me I cant be or who to take information as truth.

                    • Jebus Jebus

                      Bummer, no credentials, I know how you feel…

                    • Shaker1

                      ExpertNuc, while I might understand that sources need to be questioned, I do have to wonder at your statement:

                      "I am someone that educated myself in nuclear…"

                      Might one ask just where the education that you speak of originates? I'm not trying to be rude, but you're not one of the new 'Wikipedia' experts, are you?

                      True education might rely more upon being critical enough to ask the right questions. Your above statement, and then the dismissal of sources that rightfully may have useful information and enable one to ask the right questions despite the sources's motives doesn't impress me as conforming to what I might feel is the ability to ask the right questions. You may come upon your bigotry honestly, but bigotry in such sweeping dismissal carries its own problems which you don't seem to have to power to question within yourself. One might think there's a contradiction there, huh?

                  • We Not They Finally

                    HoTaters, probably better not to fling around "socref" too casually. Not everyone who may be missing the mark (and no one's perfect) is a socref. ExpertNuc probably does not even know who you are talking about. Everyone on their own terms.

                    • GQR2

                      This guy is getting paid by the post. And he is not even a good troll his buddy has to help him down the field.
                      Please peeps don't answer him.

                    • HoTaters HoTaters

                      Check out the wording, the verbiage. Everyone has a writing style and this sounds remarkably similar to a recently incarnated troll entity.

                • ExpertNuc

                  I am saying that the same people that claim these entities lie, and are greedy, devil worshipping mass murderers should not rely on that information. Makes no sense. How come independent organizations dont have better information and are the "go to" entities?

                  I am alleging that people are duplicitous if they say these organizations are fallacious then use their information.

                  Cmon there is enough information out there to not use these sources. They are not the "experts" or are they?

                  Im just calling out the duplicity.

        • HoTaters HoTaters

          What is that supposed to mean, ExpertNuc? Are you our new token shill/troll?

          I'm just providing a diagram so people here can see how a BWR is constructed, and what decomissioning a normal BWR w/o damage from an accident might entail.

          It's a DOH! education post. You obviously don't "get it."

          • ExpertNuc

            No, I am your token expertnuc. Judging from your reply and others, there is a lack thereof in this forum. I dont care how you feel about me. I couldnt care less about what you know either, which really isnt much. Go ahead get me banned. ENE is a free forum, no membership in any particular club required. I dont care if I am the only one here with my particular views. Im not here to entertain you.

            • HoTaters HoTaters

              Ooh, I soooo hurt.

            • It is obvious that the nuke cartel has decided that it is necessary to "take it to the wall" to pretend that nuke reactors, esp MOX cannot blow up in a nuclear reaction.

              This is a full court press from nuke and media. GE owns 600 media outlets.

              Just watch the video….massive concrete structures launched 1000 feet in the air in seconds. Obviously, Fuku 3 and maybe 4 were nuclear explosions. They covered up the video on 4.

              http://nukeprofessional.blogspot.com/2013/12/fukushima-was-nuclear-explosion-here-is.html

              • TorMentor

                From early physics courses, we are taught that the reason nuclear reactors do not blow up like weapons is that the enrichment is too low. If this were NOT the case, then why would the government spend billions to get countries to convert their reactors from HEU to 20% enriched and lower?

                The low enriched uranium contains more U238 than U235. The U238 is a fast fission energy cross section, versus the U235 thermal fission cross section. Because U238 is fast fission, the neutron leaks out of the core much more readily than that neutron born from U235 fission.

                In the "4 factor formula", criticality is defined by the product of 4 factors – eta, reproduction factor, epsilon – fast fission factor, p – resonance escape, and f – thermal utilization. Two factors are missing – fast neutron leakage, and thermal neutron leakage (six factor formula).

                The 4 factor formula is related to the 6 factor formula in that the former relates "no leakage" or an "infinite sized reactor".

                As enrichment goes below the "magic value" of 20% U235, the reactor size for criticality increases to the point that the fast leakage and fast fission factor do not dominate.

                Thus an LEU can not exhibit a "nuclear explosion" as you would define it.

                Thanks!

                I hope this helps.

                • CodeShutdown CodeShutdown

                  In early physics classes, we were taught that the reason certain engineers fail their risk analysis, arriving at erroneous conclusions in spite of direct evidence is that they know just enough to think they know it all. This is the classic "seven factor fuku formula" Oddly, they remain smug, even as millions of animals lose their lives. A frontolimbic defect does not permit feelings of remorse, and hence they are never TorMented, have a drive to control others, taking positions as junior soccer referees, and having juvenile ego structures, call themselves Pros, never answering difficult questions, but instead harping on useless tech drivel

                  • CodeShutdown CodeShutdown

                    actually, this technique might help; while tapping your face and chest, more specifically the acupuncture meridians, repeat this several times; even though Im a smug techie that promotes nuclear which has created vast areas of uninhabitable land, and released enough poison to kill just about everything, and whilst I feel no remorse whatsoever, nevertheless, I still love and accept myself completely.

                    • TorMentor

                      I do love myself completely and unconditionally. If I were a gun designer I would love myself. If I designed automobiles I would love myself. If I was an electrical engineer that designed high voltage power lines, I would love myself. If I were working at Verizon, and sold cell phones to middle school kids, I would love myself.

                    • TorMentor

                      If you can phrase your statement in the form of mathematical and probabilistic relationships, as Rassmussen had, then maybe I can address them sensibly. Its pretty nebulous as specified but I would like to address risk as the product of likelihoods and consequences, without emotionalism. Thats the starting point. Thanks.

                    • bo bo

                      TorMentor, can you design a gas chamber ? I've been looking for one and can never find a good one.

                  • TorMentor

                    PRA class is more advanced, and comes much later than basic physics. I was fortunate to have the opportunity to listen to Norm Rasmussen.

                    He said "how many would be willing to risk getting shot dead crossing that door threshold for a million dollars on the other side, if there was a one in a million chance of being shot dead."

                    Everyone raised their hand. Then he systematically reduced the odds, down to 1 in 100,000, 1/10,000 and 1/1000. Fewer hands.

                    There was one hand up when he said "even money".

                    It was mine.

                    • CodeShutdown CodeShutdown

                      proving, TorMentor, that you failed the risk analysis question on at least two counts; First, gold is already shining on THIS side of the door with solar, and second, the real risk of nuclear is not just to the person taking the chance, but other children, women, countries, and lets not forget animals. You and others of your ilk failed so utterly miserably that no words can come close to expressing it

                    • zogerke zogerke

                      TorMentor, I think you just effectively and accurately defined yourself as a psycopath……..you describe a very high risk threshold for personal monetary gain…..and say you love yourself dearly…..and claim to have no remorse for ever engaging in activities that can hurt others, regardless of risk. If you were shot going through that door to get that money, you would sear the hearts of all who love you, if such folks exist. I also understand you have a grandious view of your chances of succeeding, but you totally lack compassion. And somehow how is it all our TorMentors on here, like grateful fruit flies, end their posts with the term: Thanks. Thanks!

        • Jebus Jebus

          In a real court of law, evidence is submitted from both sides, by both sides, from all sides…

          • weeman

            Two sides to every story, it's up to you to come to a logical conclusion and nuclear and fracking are easy targets, because of the obvious pitfalls on so many levels.
            Wake up and smell the plutonium, before it is to late, please.

    • ExpertNuc

      The ANS Nuclear Cafe is a shill site. Why are you linking to it when you claim any shill site is biased? Cmon doesnt independent sites have much better technical data and pedigreed information than the American Nuclear Society? Who is its constituency and why are they the experts in all things nuclear? I can get a much better technical education just by reading some independent sites on my own, than go to a shill technical site that claims to have all things nuclear as their expertise. We can make our own expertise and technical site but the problem is that no one except us independents will follow it. Do we have to knock on the door of the enemy? Does ENE come across as technical or radical technical to the point of nonbelief?

      • FallOut FallOut

        I' didn't read that far into it, sorry !!!

        Just post pictures for educational purposes. I think the site being an open air reactor, and the pacific getting destroyed in only 3 years is proof enough for all non believers. And walking around a bogus site would show itself very quickly.

        • ExpertNuc

          So why walk around? C'mon lets get our technical information from some independent sites that amass their information from muckraking journalists who passed chemistry in school, and not some specifically focused "technical" society. Same goes for the IEEE for electrical engineering. Why even go to any organization that is part of the machine? Lets stay independent and educate ourselves.

        • GQR2

          It would you're right. Wow so which exactly are the plugs that is a great picture. Doing forensics this way is tough. The visuals really help.

          • GQR2

            The idea of the sonic and super sonic explosions is a grabber as well. Cooterboy wrote of this below or in another thread. People don't understand this NUCLEAR DETONATION.i suspect because it wasn't an orange mushroom cloud. Thank you Fallout for the info !

      • FallOut FallOut

        And if you notice that pic is " massive " gives a nice close up of the three piece plug..!!

        I could not find a better pic of the plug area.

      • HoTaters HoTaters

        Ah, I see your Modus Operandum, ExpertNuc. It was the words, "contamination" and stating it was outside the containment that must have awakened your bot program and alerted you to start making posts to distract everyone from the issue at hand.

        I'm assuming from your post your are part of the targeted disinformation, psy op campaign that has been initiated against this site, sometime in the past two months.

        You are giving the appearance of being a provocateur. I suggest you consider that.

        If you don't stop this "why are posting XYZ" stuff, we're going to being hitting the "report" button every time you post. We're not going to tolerate someone coming here again and turning this into a flame-fest. Not going to happen. Not again.

        Troll alert, 'Newsers. OK, we need not to buy into these gratuitious comments intended to divert our attention away from the important analysis and conversation here.

        Please, hit "report" every time this "ExpertNuke" person posts something that might start a flame war. And we need to try NOT TO RESPOND.

        ExpertNuke, you have been warned. We're taking this to Admin. You'll be under observation and reported as needed.

        • Arizonan Arizonan

          Ho, let it go please. Get back to the conversation. Thank you. I am so tired of shill accusations all the time.

        • ExpertNuc

          So that is your modus operandi. Only believe what you want to believe. In that regard, you sir are ignorant. You have no important analysis because you sir, are not an expertnuc. So wade in the flotsam and jetsam you call analysis. It wont change the truth. You might think you know the truth, but what you know about the situation, can fill a thimble. It really makes me think how much time you waste perpetuating the rubbish and hogwash you perpetuate as propaganda. It wont change a thing all things considered.

      • HoTaters HoTaters

        Bring it, where are your citations for the "real experts", ExpertNuc?

    • GQR2

      i wish this could be labeled for even clearer understanding for us slow kids. 🙂

  • Sounds like the cover up propaganda PR machine is in full gear..

    All of the fuel is still in spent fuel pool #3, can just be lifted out.

    The cover is still on at #3 reactor, though bent a wee bit.

    Nothing serious, just a wee hydrogen explosion.

    No plutonium released.

    Just 10% of Chernobyl.

    No one died, no one will die.

    (sarc)

  • rogerthat

    Neatly put. For my money, the perfect summary of the sad fate of nasty number three. Please post it again sometime. Maybe one of these days Tepco, MSM and all those bloody scientists and experts will stop picking on poor old hydrogen and blaming it for everything. Maybe one day the dread words NUCLEAR DETONATION will be uttered. Hooray at last.

    • ExpertNuc

      One of the reasons a nuclear plant that is shut down can not go "nuclear" we are told, is because the enrichment is not high enough. I am wondering why billions are being spent securing highly enriched uranium when there is plenty of low enriched uranium out there that can make a detonation according to your premise. Its simple physics, are we being told it can, or is this just another "imagination run wild" and unchecked. Someone find the calculation that low enriched uranium can detonate. It has to be out there.

      • razzz razzz

        Melted fuel can go critical when the Uranium and Plutonium distill themselves out and collect together (since they are heavy metals).

        Typical pellets inside fuel rods with cooling water circulating inside undamaged containment were left on the drawing room table soon as the Great Quake stuck Japan and caused a station blackout at Daiichi…Heretofore entering the great unknown with added tons of saltwater.

        • TorMentor

          Melted fuel can go critical when the neutron production equals the neutron losses. Critical is a manifestation of a neutron chain reaction exclusively. It really has nothing to do with uranium and plutonium "distilling themselves out".

          Here is it in a nutshell: There are some fundamental features of criticality that must be met.

          1. The combination of four factors must equal unity.
          2. These four factors are categorized by decreasing neutron energy
          3. The fastest neutron energies are those born from fission (> 2 Mev). This is embedded in the "fast fission factor" or the number of fast fission neutrons to total neutrons produced
          4. As a neutron interacts with target material it encounters "resonances" that capture the neutron, losing it to contribute to a chain reaction. Thus the "resonance escape probability" is a mid energy range (down to 100 keV) effect. It is the ratio of those neutrons that enter the resonance region to those that downscatter to thermal energy
          5. Next comes "thermal utilization", which is the ratio of the neutrons that downscatter to thermal energies to those that survive resonance escape.
          6. Finally comes the reproduction factor eta – or the ratio of neutrons born in thermal fission to those that down scatter

          If you take all these ratios together, numerators and denominators cancel out, and what you are left with is the "criticality eigenvalue" or k-eff (k-infinity for 4 factors without leakage).

          Keff < 1 is subcritical,…

      • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar VanneV

        The MOX fuel, weapons grade plutonium, in units #3 and #4 detonated.

      • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar VanneV

        Nuclear Power and the Spread of Nuclear Weapons
        books.google.com/books?isbn=1612342272
        Paul L. Leventhal autofilled – 2002 – ‎POLITICAL SCIENCE
        “…For a long time there was a myth that nuclear weapons could not be made with reactor-grade plutonium, but the 1994 report of the Committee on International …
        ”In short, reactor-grade plutonium is weapons-usable, whether by unsophisticated proliferation or by advanced nuclear weapon states. Theft of separated plutonium, whether weapons-grade or reactor-grade, would pose a grave security risk.’…”
        pp. 125-26.
        http://books.google.com/books?id=2OyzXLjhQcEC&pg=PA125&lpg=PA125&dq=myth+that+there+is+weapons+grade+plutonium+and+non+weapons+grade+plutonium&source=bl&ots=88NW4ANhLI&sig=Mqsv1g0LIDUsQL9keAPaPpAcYEQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=40kAU6bMKrC4yAG3roHgAg&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=myth%20that%20there%20is%20weapons%20grade%20plutonium%20and%20non%20weapons%20grade%20plutonium&f=false

  • How can you have a criticality explosion and not empty the spent fuel pool, and/or remove all of the covers over a reactor by force of explosion?

    • SykeWar(DELETED) SykeWar

      This is what I'm wondering (up above) too.

    • FallOut FallOut

      Good question's … Was wondering the same thing …

      The spent fuel pool floor and walls are lined with 1/8 to 1/4 inch thick stainless steel liner plates.

      The SFP is designed to prevent inadvertent loss of water from the fuel region by drainage through connected piping systems. Although a pool cooling system is connected to the pool for decay heat removal, it is designed to prevent siphoning of the water. A connection exists between the SFP and the reactor pressure vessel head region through the fuel transfer pathway (refueling canal) which is provided with physical barriers to prevent SFP drainage when not in use. The pools are generally sized so that the fuel remains nearly completed covered if the transfer pathway is inadvertently opened.

      The spent fuel pool is located at the operating floor level, about 100 to 150 feet above grade. The pool floor and wall are designed for dead load and live load, hydrostatic pressure load, seismic load, thermal loads and loads resulting from the accidental drop of heavy objects. The thickness of the pool walls and floor is on the order of 4 to 6 feet. The horizontal and vertical loads from the pool floor are transmitted to the two longitudinal walls which are designed as deep girders supported at the peripheral wall of the reactor building.

      http://josephmiller.typepad.com/battle-to-stabilize-the-f/2011/04/design-features-of-the-bwr-spent-fuel-pool.html

    • FallOut FallOut

      Dr. ….

      Could it have broken containment then found the path of least resistance ? Maybe the crashing crane did smash the top ?

    • ExpertNuc

      A "criticality explosion" is not really an explosion or a nuclear event. The explosion that is observed is really a byproduct of the energy released, like a steam explosion. If 200 Mev is released per fission, and 1.6e-19 joule/eV then one can determine the number of fissions needed to release the energy equivalent of say, 1 kg of TNT. If each fission releases on average 2.5 neutrons, one can deduce the number of neutrons that are produced in the criticality all at once. I dont think there is a correlation for the height of an explosion plume and the number of fissions that occur instantly. I think there is some data out there but be very careful of the sources.

      • GQR2

        ExpertNuc, whatever in all respect it all kills,mutates for all eternity just the same. The devil is in the details but this picture can and is overdue to painted in broader strokes. Its ludicrous. This isn't an experiment. just sayin. For the those that appreciated this extra info in this conversation i apologize. i didn't i found it hostile.

        • ExpertNuc

          I think "kills and mutates for all eternity" is why people here are getting all spun up. Who is propagating this fear?

          • Jebus Jebus

            Sorry, my dog marked your post…

            Here's my graphic answer to your graphic question.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VffZ2sSZ30M

          • john dpugh

            expertnuc It does kill and mutate forever. You are not an expert after all . Radiation causes dna breakage (amongst other things ) and thus causes genetic mutations . I have more than enough links on that .

            • ExpertNuc

              How much radiation causes what you say? One atom? 6.02e23 (one mole). There are ~ 1e27 atoms in our body. Saying one radioactive atom can impair a body with a definitive cancer that large is like saying one stray asteroid in our solar system can wipe out the universe. Surely the one atom theory has to be backed up. There has to be some data or experiment out there that says "here is one radioactive atom and here is a human body". Lets see the definitive cancer. I think that isolating one single radioactive atom was a tall order, even for Gofman. I'll agree that a lot of radiation can cause cancer. It can also kill cancer as well.

              • SykeWar(DELETED) SykeWar

                Expert Nuc: You said, "one stray asteroid in our solar system can wipe out the universe." This is an erroneous example. You are comparing a non-biological system with a biological one where cancer, once formed, can multiply and spread through out the body with no further exposure from radiation. Of course you know this but you're playing dumb so that you may cause as much disruption as possible. Why do you do this?

                • ExpertNuc

                  One stray asteroid can not wipe out our universe. Ever hear of sarcasm? Ding.

                  Show me the one radioactive atom that did cause cancer. You cant.

                • ExpertNuc

                  Obviously you dont understand the use of scale and analogy.

                  My little demonstration of scale went right over your head.

                  Lets say you are an army of one, and I am an army of 1e27 healthy atoms. You are very lethal in your own right when targeted but no one can target you specifically. But I have sheer numbers that can thrwart off your attacks as a bull swats a fly.

                  Sheer numbers will overwhelm all the time.

              • john dpugh

                expertnuc That is not true . You are misinformed in so many ways that i dont know where to start the discussion.
                It has nothing to do with the size, it has to do with the dose . How much radiation you get .
                Cancer can start with a single cell , (in fact it does start with a single cell) and can grow to the size of a balloon or even larger . That is how cancer grows.
                Radiation does kill cancer , and everything on its path , that is how toxic it is . It doesn't mean it is good for you . That is why they give radiation to patients when they have no other choice . Not because it is harmless.
                If you do not understand anything , please do ask . Many knowledgable people here and you can get answers to your questions .

              • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar VanneV

                The plutonium from Fukushima does have its own unique signature, and it can be proven that a cancer was caused by a single millionth of a gram of plutonium from Fukushima. However, I suspect that we will be extinct by them. And who wants to be right but dead?

              • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar VanneV

                Where is you citation of Gofman. Straw arguments based on one person changing the research of an individual are just straw arguments. Where is YOUR citation. Spewing forth propaganda without citations is extremely unscientific and unscholarly.

              • haizedustrium-1234 haizedustrium-1234

                Peta disintegrations in a short time and space is the scale we are dealing with here, where everything in contact is in danger. How many bodies consisting of 1e27 atoms can be in contact with the total releases, and the releases has a multiplication factor with all atoms it is in contact with, and remember infants and unborn babies have far less atoms, so little contact or exposure have more damage.

          • We Not They Finally

            ExpertNuc, if you now ANYTHING, surely you now that half-life of some of these isotopes are humongous. And that YES, a single "hot particle" can become an internal emitter and eventually cause cancer. It's not fear-mongering. It's reality.

            • SykeWar(DELETED) SykeWar

              He's here to cause unrest, division and derision. Please don't leave cause that's his aim. He's socref.

              • GQR2

                and distraction, thus consensus is harder to build. THat is the game play on people's trust. Ingratiate yourself. Play dumb. Be outright hostile and antagonizing. Offer total red herrings. You can feel them.

                First you ask is this post for real when its beyond dumb for functioning adult with google. Mostly as well its to drain energy,use up space and time. If its just too dumb to be try it probably is. Notice how peaceful and the flowing the forum had been ( and we are restoring as we type) just to disrupt post a zillion times is the goal for these people whom i really do not know how that much stupid sleeps at night. While Fukushima destroys the globe.
                But it is a living kind of like the charnel workers in India.
                They pick succinct demographics for identities. have multiple one and Do work in tag teams. like drunken housewife or bigtimescienceguy , or end of the world guy. When you look at posts, now that the cyber war is proving to be a bit of a pest u lance. See who is writing this. It could be a game if it wasn't so dispicable and real.

                • SykeWar(DELETED) SykeWar

                  Absolutely correct. His rapid fire diatribes (a minute apart) are a sight to behold. I loved the story he told of how he beat up hippies, for the shear enjoyment of it, at the school he was attending.

                  • GQR2

                    missed that one. Given the design of the these comments which can be added to in the middle. reloading to read carefully is like living in ground hog day. But its very important to study and not dislike a commenter , a new commenter but read with an extra dose of skepticism. assess it. see how it fits with all the rest of the general flow around here. In these days this is what is necessary especially on forum like this. These people are paid. And concern. ah its devious but don't be fooled read the person's comments.

                    See if they reveal a person who has been honestly lurking or what. Notice again this one went after someone presenting very good detailed pictures,articles etc. We were all benefiting. Study this thread. the time frame of the comments is tuff but you'll get the jist. They be warring on us peeps.

                • GQR2

                  But the consensus is NOT over the details. We are beyond that. Its not the details anymore. Its about the truth of lethality forever of radiation and how the planet and all life forms are sadly getting dosed in ways that are killing children,adults,the food chain,the air,the water. In short. WE know this truth. The is nothing to quibble about. game over. The details are just the fluff. How much truth gets out to globe is the meat.

              • ExpertNuc

                Im here to show how ignorant you are to this subject. You really have no life if you have to just post psy ops crap to the minions here. You are no leader, just part of the mindless sheeple.

                • Go Flying

                  I want the ten minutes back that it took to read this thread.

                  Expert cut is trying to argue that there is some kind of difference between being shot by a lunatic or being shot by an expert sniper. The bullet doesn't care who fired it, neither does the target.

                  End result is is the same, all the argument is circle jerk semantics.

                  Now hand me that hank of well boiled hemp rope. I got a calling to acquaint some expert texpert trolls to a good ol southern tradition.

                • Go Flying

                  I want the ten minutes back that it took to read this thread.

                  Expertnuk is trying to argue that there is some kind of difference between being shot by a lunatic or being shot by an expert sniper. The bullet doesn't care who fired it, neither does the target.

                  End result is is the same, all the remaining argument is circle jerk semantics.

                  Now hand me that hank of well boiled hemp rope. I got a calling to acquaint some expert texpert troll to a good ol' southern tradition.

            • ExpertNuc

              Half life doesnt equate to toxicity. The real bad actor is "specific activity". On that basis, one decay of Plutonium is less lethal than one decay of Co-60 on a per second basis.

              • john dpugh

                expertnuc importance of half-life in this content is that , many of the isotopes will linger around for many thousands of years . That means even if their toxic effects wouldn't be observable straight away , on the long run , they will cause enormous damage .

          • Arizonan Arizonan

            24,000 years of Pu239 blown all across the planet is as good as DNA mutation and death for all eternity as far as we are concerned.

          • zogerke zogerke

            shill. troll. what else do you need to see?

      • razzz razzz

        Semantics. Spontaneous fission is some random neutrons hitting a Uranium target a few times. A criticality is sustained reaction as neutrons are finding more than a few targets to hit and a chain reaction is ongoing until fuel is dispersed. All these situations create heat and happen in milliseconds. Explosive effects to whatever degree develop when so much heat is produced at once, surrounding matter and atmosphere expands. How quick the expansion depends of course on how much heat is produced. Superheated and a shock/compression wave forms traveling in all directions. Supersonic (faster than the speed of sound at 761mph) you get a goodly amount of damage. When contained or directed, damage is localized with only heat and blast exhaust remaining. Using either one stick of dynamite or hundred, there will be damage left behind. IOW, not all the Plutonium and Uranium were configured to chain react and go boom in Unit 3. OTOH, doesn't take much Plutonium to create a bang under the right conditions. There has already been links to if or how can a meltdown moderate itself (slow neutrons down without water) in theory. Is Unit 3 a practical application?

        Chopper pilots were reporting blue scattered light from the reactors during water drop attempts. Beams or semantics? An inventory of daughter products present would confirm what occurred.

        http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/npsg/explosives/Chapter2.pdf

    • ExpertNuc

      There are plenty of criticality "explosions" that are no more energetic than a jacuzzi bubbling in a cauldron. Its not the nuclear event that is energetic, but the accompanying energy converted to steam that builds up instantly. Mechanical energy is very violent. Ask anyone that has been burned by steam if they are still alive. It is the prime mover of kinetic energy, not the neutrons.

      • john dpugh

        expertnuc Oke , many of us think there was some differences between those explosions , would you agree with that ?
        That they were not all the same . Do you agree?
        Deflagration is not the same as detonation as Arnie says .
        So people here are not all nuclear experts , ( you seem to be one ) and we are trying to collect information from all the sources to try to figure out what was the cause.
        If you have any explanations please feel free to share .
        You cant blame everyone here because someone showed the wrong map , that is not fair.

        • FallOut FallOut

          He ran away. He can't explain the link above on Neutron Beams.

        • ExpertNuc

          People show the wrong map all the time. Its called incompetence. Call them out on it! It just weakens the case that real expertise can be found from those that like to spin and twist their arguments. It is totally fair.

          • john dpugh

            expertnuc How about a neutron cloud , or high neutron radioactivity ? Maybe that is the corecct term ?

            • ExpertNuc

              High neutron activity? How high? Neutron radiation can kill if in significant quantity. A neutron beam is inaccurate and that brings down the whole house of cards.

              • john dpugh

                expertnuc I see you are new here and i dont want to attack you all the time cause i see you are getting hit from all sides.
                Just stay for a while , give it a few days at least , read the news section if you like .

                • ExpertNuc

                  Im getting hit from all sides from ignorance. I know the difference between a "beam" and an isotropic flux. People like to believe they have the truth and the truth is they dont have the truth. It scares them because they dont know what they dont know. Its as if the "unknown unknowns" are driving their belief systems. Since I know, there is no problem on my end, or in my beliefs. Go ahead call admin, ban me. I dont care. I just think some people here are genuine, and some are genuine pieces of work.

                  • john dpugh

                    expertnuc I dont wish to ban you on the contrary i think you are at the right place. I just think your expectations are too high .
                    If you think everything that is said / claimed here would be 100% correct than you will be disappointed . Nobody here claims to know it all .
                    It is a discussion forum .
                    We are not scared of what we don't know , but from what we already do know , and what has been hidden from our eyes.
                    We are scared because we can see that the truth is not being told .

                    • ExpertNuc

                      "we are scared because we can see that the truth is not being told"

                      So find your own truth. Be your own experts. If you believe you are being killed off by the minutest levels of radiation then thats your bag.

                      If you want to march out a bunch of sick kids and say "see Mr Expertnuc you **** bleep bleep p.o.s." then that is your anger you have to deal with. I wont buy it nor take responsibility for that belief.

                      Me, Im not going to worry about it. The expertnuc in me knows better.

                      Seeking the truth is no where near as better than having the truth.

                      Many people have the truth but dont want to believe it if it were put on a plate, and placed right in front of them.

                      They want to believe that all is lost, that this is an "ELE event", that the Pacific and the human race is doomed…

                      Well that's their hang up.

                      Me? Im not going to worry about it.

                  • Arizonan Arizonan

                    Why did TEPCO call it 13 neutron beams if they should have said isotropic flux? TEPCO has admitted criticality in the first few days of the accident, causing observable blue light neutron fluxes if you will. Do a search for "neutron" here on the enenews website and you might be surprised to learn more than the nucexperts expect to learn here.

                • SykeWar(DELETED) SykeWar

                  ExpertNuc is not new here. He's socref. A pro-nuke shill that was banned a while back for stirring up trouble. Don't leave since that's his aim.

                  • ExpertNuc

                    If I was banned then how can I come back? You dont make any sense. There are a lot of people that share my views. I was watching and reading your missives for some time now and decided you need to be put in your atheist place. Your lack of a belief in God is one reason you are angry at the system. You have some pent up aggression NWO conspiracy theory fixation. Personally, I dont think you are that intelligent. But thats just my opinion.

                    A belief in God will show that God is watching this story unfold and He said he would not let the world end on His or any others account.

                    God is watching – even you. Tell him when you see Him – in the face of the lowest of the low.

                    • SykeWar(DELETED) SykeWar

                      Socref/ExpertNuc: Anybody can spoof an IP. I thought you were a smart self-taught nuke experty kind of person? But then we know this. Socref would play stupid too.

                      Oh I know you must have been watching me. We're old buddies. I knew you'd be back. Athiest? You think you know me? Show me where I said I was atheist? Show me where I said I did NOT believe in God? You can't because there isn't anything. Go ahead show us all the links where I said I don't believe in God or I'm an athiest. Come on socref.

                      Folks, this is a pro nuke shill. Don't leave cause that's his aim.

                    • john dpugh

                      expertnuc I would like to have some discussions with you but if you start talking about god , i think you will be banned soon . It is not allowed to have religious discussions on this forum . Number one rule . Maybe we can keep god and religion out of this discussion .

                    • Radioactive isotopes don't care about any god….you might, but they don't….

                    • SykeWar(DELETED) SykeWar

                      I was watching and reading your missives for some time now and decided you need to be put in your atheist place. Oh, you're gonna PUT ME IN MY PLACE? Threatening me huh? How intelligently scientific of you.

                    • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar VanneV

                      I don't think he was banned, just chose to stop with that round of discussions.

                      Although, letting people believe that heis someone in the DOE was a problem of impersonation.

                      We are soon going to here his/her pitch for all the new nuclear proposals which are all unproven and undesirable poisonous reactors.

                      Please let us have cheap and safe solar and wind energy. Let us be energy independent and truly green (rules out any form of nuclear fission or fusion). We all want to be off the grid. If the whole country is off the grid, we won't have to have all these discussions anymore.

                    • SykeWar(DELETED) SykeWar

                      The devil is angry for his time is short.

          • john dpugh

            expertnuc SO one guy was incompetent , he showed the wrong map , guess what , it wasn't me . Why would you blame his mistake on everyone here ?

            • ExpertNuc

              One mistake can propagate into a big lie and everyone can buy into it.

              Are you saying it was a "mistake" and not a "manipulation" so as to garner some support?

              Im saying there should be zero defects. In everything.

              • john dpugh

                expertnuc You are the only one here buying into it , nobody else does.
                We all know that very well by now that one guy made a mistake and showed the wrong map (has been used against us a million times) , so are you going to shoot me for that lol .

                Zero defects ?? Are you for real ? Can you give me one example of anything with zero defects ? Including yourself .

                Anyway , it is wrong to take that one guys mistake and blame it on everyone here , don't you think ?
                I know it was a mistake . I did not do it . Go tell it to him .
                If you come here which such prejudice and try to find the truth you will not be getting anywhere .
                If you want to learn something , you must try to keep an open mind .

                • ExpertNuc

                  There is nothing with zero defects. We should strive for zero defects, but zero defects is not reachable. Including myself.

                  Is the truth here? Is it anywhere?

                  • john dpugh

                    expertnuc Well as far as i can see the best source for truth about fukushima is here.
                    I have been to many discussions forums , been kicked out of many and in the end this is my last stop . Unless you know a better place , let us know .
                    Just to make it clear , i am not saying everything you will hear on this forum is 100% correct , but just stay around for a while . try to follow the discussions and try to make up your own mind .
                    If nothing just read the headlines . that would at least give you some idea of how biased the main stream media is .

                    • ExpertNuc

                      "The best source of information about Fukushima is here". This is your opinion. There is discussion here but I doubt that the "best source of information" is here when people cite other sources of information. I have made up my mind. 50% of the people here are genuinely concerned about radiation. The other 50% are crackpots that are conspiracy theorists.

                      Its like pouring gasoline on a fire sometimes.

                    • john dpugh

                      expertnuc Ofcourse its my opinion . People cite other sources of information , well ofcourse they do , unless we would have our own nuclear experts and test labs right.
                      And yes there are conspiracy theorists in every site , its an open forum , everyone can join in . Freedom of speech .
                      I would say most people here are genuinely concerned and that is enough for me .
                      You dont have to chat with everyone , you dont have to agree on everything , i am sure you will find people you will like and you will learn from as well.
                      It gets frustrating for most of us but dont forget , there is a reason behind that . Its a reaction to the deliberate down play by the main stream media.
                      Just get the information , good or bad , and you make your own choices. Nobody here has any profit from telling you any information , unlike the main stream media. That alone should mean something .

                • ExpertNuc

                  Im not buying into the "all truth about Fukushima is here". I am also not buying into using information from sources people call demonic or liars. If they feel so strong about these organizations, then dont use their information.

                  I made my choice a long time ago. Fukushima didnt change my mind on nuclear energy.

          • earthsmith earthsmith

            Trying to exact lies with misinformation. So in an atomic chain reaction your saying neutrons don't release energy? Heat? Only the steam created by this heat is energetic? The smell is overpowering.

        • ExpertNuc

          I applaud your efforts to collect nuclear data and process it accurately. However when people here collect data from the very organizations they say are liars, then what are people to believe?

          • john dpugh

            expertnuc I understand what you mean , these are difficult times , not easy to get any decent reliable information anywhere. We are all like journalists trying to pick information from here and there . But most of us are not journalists , so we just try to do our best to get the best information we can . It is not always from the most reliable sources , but in some subjects reliable sources are extremely scarce.

            • ExpertNuc

              Journalists are not scientists. We have to remember that.

              • FallOut FallOut

                Yes but all the universities are corrupted by big nuclear money.

                Nuclear / Industrial revolution. Pfffffff …….

                Like asking Bill Gates the corrupt piece of garbage about nuclear. All the money, all the insurance backed by the ones you are killing. Money talks and the nuke industry is as corrupt as they come. All the agencies payed off ….

                Deep down you know your a pile of trash. Posting lies.

              • FallOut FallOut

                Ask Bill if he wants cream or milk with his cesium …..

          • combomelt combomelt

            i applau…..
            your efforts…… zzzz….blah blah blah…zzzzzz..
            y
            a
            w
            n

            zzzzzzzzzzzzz…

  • rogerthat

    That was a reply to Sickputer's summary, a big thumbs-up

  • Jebus Jebus

    "Watch footage of the investigation attempt here"

    Say's it all…

    Makes me want to go sit at the table with the big sign that says in bold letters, "Nuke the lying bastards!"…

    But they are already doing that to themselves, politely…

  • Oh yeah number three with that mushroom cloud over it. Mushroom cloud over a nuclear reactor??? The experts say not to worry it's only hydrogen. No immediate danger. Only an uneducated fool would worry about multiple explosions and mushroom clouds over a nuclear reactor, so they say. If there really was a problem that Obama chap would fix it, right? Fox news would have a whole army of investigative reporters reporting everything. Right? I said, right? Don't worry folks the "experts" have this whole situation under control. Right? Our governments have our best interests at heart and propping up banks and GM helps every $6 /hr Wal-Mart worker greatful for the world economy that has made his/her life better. That Obummer guy is a straight shooter working hard for you. Don't look at the ruined plutonium spitting mess in Japan. Have some sushi and watch your team win a medal in Sochi.

  • Jebus Jebus

    A good forensics murder investigation dictates that you find the bullet and place it back with the weapon that fired it…

    Good job Tepco, you found the murder weapon.

    The best criminals alway convict themselves…

    • ExpertNuc

      Except this murder doesnt have a specific body so no one can claim the absence of evidence argument. Oh how a body is really required for a murder conviction. If only….Hey we are all going to buy it anyway…

      • Jebus Jebus

        When you have video evidence of the murder, dna and blood samples, the weapon, the bullet, the bullet fragments, and, this is important, precedent, proving that this witnessed act causes death, how can you not convict?

        In some cases, the victims bodies just dissapear into time…

        • Jebus Jebus

          Sorry for the ironic typo…

        • ExpertNuc

          Yet where is the body? Its a valid question. No one has produced a single shred of physical evidence that points to a smoking gun that is definitive to a specific death caused by a specific radiation. Yet we know people have died from very large doses. Like that girl in Brazil whose father was "playing" with that rogue radiation source. This is the weakness of the argument. Until a real body is produced, and a definitive death certificate saying "cause of death is …" then everyone is just getting spun up.

        • ExpertNuc

          Ive heard that DNA evidence before. I think there are a lot of things out there that cause DNA damage, including but not exclusive to radiation. I also heard radiation can repair DNA. I have to protect against sunburn from the stars at night.

          • john dpugh

            expertnuc Yes there are we all know that . Many chemicals does that too just like radiation , so ?
            Radiation cannot repair dna , talking about misinformation 🙂
            You shoudln't worry about sunburn from stars , why do you say that ?

          • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar VanneV

            ExperNuc

            This is certainly not an expert statement: "I also heard radiation can repair DNA". You can't possibly have a citation for such nonsense. Radiation cause DNA double strand breakage. Ir any repair is done by the body (not radiation), it is a debilitating mutation. There is no one on the earth that claims that radiation repairs DNA besides you.

            • SykeWar(DELETED) SykeWar

              Anne, it's socref, back from the dead.

            • ExpertNuc

              Radiation hormesis at very slight doses. Look it up.

              • newsblackoutUSA newsblackoutUSA

                5 years later uh oh Leukemia…
                :-/

              • zogerke zogerke

                1. we admit we have a problem & we are powerless before the urge to debunk people who lie to protect nuclear deathmachines
                2. we come to believe that a power greater than ourselves (like the community here of wise folks) can help us regain our sanity
                3. made a decision to turn our hearts & hands to protecting human & earth life as we understand it, against nukes & poison
                4. make a fearless & moral inventory of ourselves and our ability to stay on track in the face of huge annoyance & manufactured lies
                5. admitted to the community, ourselves & our pets that we fell off topic
                6. were ready to have the Enenews community correct us so we can go back to work telling the truth in all ways possible
                7. humbly asked our true peers here to help keep us on track
                8. made a list of the nuclear manipulators apologists we had tried to harm, and vowed to damage them in more effective ways with on topic arguments…excellent links, and creative ridiculousness
                9.made direct amends except when to do so would support the shills or confuse newcomers
                10. continue with personal inventory & when we were off topic promptly admitted it
                11. sought through concentration, study & practice to strengthen connection to the community of support on enenews & elsewhere so we have the wisdom & courage to spread the truth, debunk lies & make change for the better on this planet
                12. carry this message to others & practice these principals here!

              • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar VanneV

                No, a Little Radiation Is NOT Good For You
                April 30, 2011 by WashingtonsBlog
                http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/04/no-little-radiation-is-not-good-for-you.html

              • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar VanneV

                Radiation hormesis: contradicts all we know about evolution, can be shown false with elementary physics and math.
                “… This thing is on the rise (just like intelligent design), with potentially grave direct consequences if some nuclear regulatory body accepts this 'theory' and relaxes nuclear pollution standards – and similarly grave consequences if nuclear power opponents pick up the idea and use it their way, hints at which you can see in this wiki article (‘In all likelihood, recognizing that low dose effects can't be predicted from high dose experiments would force a strengthening of public health standards, not their weakening, as hormesis proponents would argue.’).

                Putting aside that hormesis is just a new name for old bullshit (see quack medicines of early 20th century. Radium toothpaste, uranium ore teapots, you name it), there's outline of what is fundamentally wrong with ‘hormesis theory’:…”
                http://dmytry.blogspot.com/2009/09/radiation-hormesis-can-be-shown-false.html

              • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar VanneV

                The Betrayal of Mankind by the Radiation Protection Agencies
                “The Trial of the Cult of Nuclearists: SCAM NUMBER FOURTEEN

                “What follows is the continuation, in serial form, of a central chapter from my book A Primer in the Art of Deception: The Cult of Nuclearists, Uranium Weapons and Fraudulent Science.

                SCAM NUMBER FOURTEEN: Deviously initiate a propaganda campaign to overturn conventional wisdom on dose-response relationships in order to achieve a political objective….

                http://du-deceptions.blogspot.com/2010/06/trial-of-cult-of-nuclearists-scam_17.html

              • combomelt combomelt

                xpertlol@puke – hormesis – get some, get some, get some already!. You can test your "hormesis" theory simply and accurately by getting on a plane, going to fukushima prefecture, renting an apt, living there and evangelizing the remaining folks about how you think radiation is good for you. And don't forget to smile, the radiation can't get past lovely looking folks such as yourself

          • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar VanneV

            ExpertNuc

            here is a definition of nuc:

            nuc

            Nucs, or Nucleus Colonies, are small honey bee colonies created from larger colonies. The term refers both to the smaller size box and the colony of honeybees within it. The name is derived from the fact that a nuc hive is centered around a queen – the nucleus of the honey bee colony.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuc

            This person is not claiming any kind of relevant expertise at all.

      • Sickputer

        A good lawyer can convict a murderer without producing a dead body. Follow the trail of circumstantial evidence in Japan and we will find dead people killed by radiation poisoning. Difficult crimes to prove, but not impossible. And the numbers of cancer and heart attack deaths will defy prior historical data. All it takes is a few brave doctors to defy the government censors. They will be heroes when they testify.

        The nuclear defense has always relied on misplacing blame for radiation-induced illnesses. Science will eventually develop differentiating factors to prove who is lying. Medicine is a very imperfect science despite all their gadgets, but someday they will be much better.

      • Arizonan Arizonan

        expertnuc, there are already bodies and there will be about two million more. You just have to keeping counting for the next fifty years. Are you willing to face it? Are you willing to read the ECRR2010 that presents irrefutable evidence that ICRP risk analyses are incorrect?

  • Jebus Jebus

    Let's see the dirt covered corner where it landed from a thousand feet…

  • cooterboy

    This "shield plug" is a three piece plug. The two outside half moon sections have contact with the rim along the entire outside edge and weigh twice as much as the center section. The center plug only has contact with it's two ends making contact with the outside lip making this section very vulnerable to any impact or degradation.

    They show three plugs, stacked atop one another. It would be assumed that there is no gaps between the plugs on any plane, by using non-hydraulic, polymer cement/grout. If this is indeed the fact then one can but assume by the picture that the lower two plugs no longer exist. The plug did it's job. End of story and lesson learned.

    In the video there are huge gaps in the concrete floor where an explosion took place. What I find interesting is that the rebar is not seriously deformed which one would expect with a convention explosion, thereby leaving chunks of concrete attached to the rebar. There is none, which leads me to believe that a shock wave, traveling beyond the speed of sound, stripped this concrete from the rebar without deforming it.

    Further evidence is the top layer of the concrete slab, is blown off exposing the rebar lattice underneath, yet not penetrating the entire slab, which is visible in the video.

    Theory.
    1. An initial subsonic explosion, degrading the integrity of the concrete.
    2. A second explosion, milliseconds apart which went super sonic.
    3. A third explosion wherein all hell broke loose.

    Peace

    • Shaker1

      Cooterboy, just comments about the some of the design features of this 'plug' that I find interesting. I know you may not have direct knowledge regarding my comments…

      I wonder, as in this drawing, if the center sections with the least support have their edges aligned at assembly as shown. Why wouldn't they purposely place those edges at angles to one another when assembled? Doesn't seem like an intelligent thing to do if one is actually relying upon it for strength in assembly, or as a guard against possible leaks of pressure. Maybe with the slight difference in diameters between the three plugs the component edges don't align, that proportional difference staggers them? And also, I wonder if the edges of the sections and their mating surfaces are perpendicular to their faces as shown. It would seem to me that a taper that would naturally seat them would accomodate their reassembly and help to minimize damage when re-seating in the opening without having to have an excess of diametric difference between the opening and the plug. Also, seems to me this design shown permits the lifting of the sections of each plug individually and that permission is intentional, not all three whole plugs at once, as would be implied in your statement "It would be assumed that there is no gaps between the plugs on any plane, by using non-hydraulic, polymer cement/grout."

      • razzz razzz

        The shield plug is just a filler. Not water or airtight to begin with. Genius to think the beam and trolley would damage it by falling on it.

        The explosion video does have three distinct blasts and the last (4th) sound you hear is the trolley beam hitting the deck and shield plug.

        • Shaker1

          razzz, I understand why it isn't water or air tight, and I assume it's called a 'shield plug' to guard against the fact that the steel head in the space beneath it is somewhat radioactive from exposure. It just seems to me that in the event of head failure (not likely, but I believe there have been instances of heads corroding and leaking) that a bit more care would be taken with its design as those others that I mentioned, slightly tapered edges and not having one seam directly above another is cheap and simple sense to me. Again, they were just comments, not particularly saying they were necessary or implying that was consequential.

          • razzz razzz

            If the plug is not air or water tight, I have no idea how it shields anything. Just makes the floor level.

            The first thing to give up the ghost are the seals (O-rings) used on the reactor lid and primary shell lid. Even with moderate over pressure they leak and is/was a well known fact.

            Under constant overpressure with heat, the lid bolts stretch and lose their memory of tensile strength and shape. The seal(s) blow out, overpressuring the undersized dry-well nitrogen filled area and then causing the primary shell lid seal to fail and begin leaking up and through the shield plug. Unit 3 seems to never have stopped leaking from that area (shield plug) once the seal failed as seen in many pics on cold days and continued high amounts of radioactivity being monitored in Unit 3.

            Don't try to understand the design. It was a failure to begin with, starting with putting holes in the bottom of that reactor vessel to pass control rods thru then expecting heat and gasses to float into downcomber pipe openings for scrubbing while the seals are failing, forcing the work floor to be evacuated.

            They did design blowout panels in the building's perimeter walls as an ironic secondary containment, to pop open during pressure differentials ex. tornadoes but TEPCO rendered those inoperable and later resorted to chopping holes in the roofs to release pressure from offgassing, mainly hydrogen, after three or four explosions already took place.

      • cooterboy

        The drawing they show is not correct at all. The lower plug is shown to rest on what? Nothing. The correct configuration for the bottom plug would be a "keystone" configuration with sloped sides and a single piece. It would be placed into position using a polymer grout. This is the strength/compression plug for the surrounding concrete.
        When cured the next ring would sit on the lip as shown with grout between all surfaces with the sides, these sides are not perpendicular but sloped in a keystone configuration but with a less angle, further pushing against the outside ring concrete and relieving stress around the hole.

        As pictured the top plug is a 3 piece affair and is obviously precast as the picking plates are visible for each panel. I believe these outside and inside edges are perpendicular because;

        1. There are expansion joints around and between the panels and of equal spacing.
        2. The center panel fell in and appears to be cracked mid span without any deformation (broken edges) along the adjoining panels which would have occurred if they were in a keystone configuration.
        3. The center panel is a breakaway panel, meaning if they ever needed to remove this top plug they would try to pick the center panel first, but if they couldn't then they would jack hammer it out and pick the remaining top two panels without damage.

        "It would be assumed that there is no gaps between the plugs on any plane," This statement implies that grout is placed wherever a…

        • Shaker1

          Cooterboy, thanks for replying. It's really too bad that such simplifications are used to portray what might be the same thing. On another subject, but pertinent regarding the oversimplification, when I saw the cross-sections of the water tank bolted seam, I wondered if they were that stupid to design those seams as shown. In their drawing, the seams relied upon bolt pressure upon the gaskets for a seal, when what I thought was a proper design would have been to lap. If they used an unequal leg angle on two sides of each sheet and inset the angle on the other two sides allowing a portion of the plate to protrude, it would have created an L-shaped seam in which the seal is accomplished through the weight of the water on the gasket and the bolts simply hold it all together. At that point, an idiot can put them together as it doesn't rely upon skill. If they are what is portrayed in drawings, those engineers need to be fired and if they didn't leak they were simply lucky.

          We might have a difference in semantics. A 'keystone' with sloped sides to me as a machinist is a 'taper'. Same idea. I didn't think of the center panel as a breakaway. It makes more sense in that light.

          Anyways, again, thanks. It's appreciated.

          • cooterboy

            Shake1,

            Thanks for your insight and thoughtfulness. I was pouring over patents for SFP containment racks and got side tracked.

            Why are these plugs there in the first place? Was it to lower the reactor vessel into place? Are these panels removable to install fuel assemblies? I don't know but here is my take of this plug.

            1. It is made of precast concrete in three sections as the picking plates are visible. They are probably prestressed panels which would limit expansion and contraction and provide extra strength and be interconnected to the picking plates .

            2. Top plug is 600mm or 24". Then they state that the deformation was rotated 300mm or 12" downward. I don't think this 12" measurement is correct. It looks more like 4".

            3. The picture shows this top plug contacting the plug below, which indicates the distance between these two plates is 12" or the middle plug does not exist anymore.

            4. The black lines between and around these panels could be any type of sealant. Or are they part of the precast form work, integrated into the panel?

            5. The only reason to build a three piece plug would be weight considerations of the crane, accuracy, ease of placement, pretensioning array, design of a breakaway panel, the addition of sealants in the gaps of the panels, precast because of shrinkage as a poured in place concrete panel would shrink. So many variables to consider.

            The only other known is that this panel is deformed downward.

            Peace,

  • Jebus Jebus

    All the world's a stage.

    In a fantasy murder mystery called "Mr. Tepco's Killers"

    Today we have act 1072

    It's about his lying spider named Fukushima, and the tangled web it weaves…

  • Homolumina Homolumina

    The Monarchs are dying along the West Coast and Monsanto is blamed… Could it be the radiation ? Here the email I got from sum

    Our monarch butterflies are vanishing — and all signs point to Monsanto as the main culprit.

    Major press outlets worldwide reported earlier this month that the butterflies are in "grave danger". Their population has reached the lowest numbers ever recorded. Now, an independent study has linked the monarch's decline with Monsanto’s Roundup pesticide.

    This corporate giant knows what it's doing. But Monsanto says we should balance the butterfly's survival with what it calls "productive agriculture" (read: Monsanto's bottom line). We need to fight this now, before it’s too late for the butterflies.

    Tell Monsanto to pull its butterfly-killing herbicide before it’s too late.

    The annual mass migration of 60 million monarchs from Canada to Mexico is one of the most beautiful phenomena in the natural world. But it's now on the verge of being a relic of history, and a key link in our food chain is under threat.

    The monarch butterfly is in a serious, decades-long decline. The WWF has reported that this winter, the monarchs are only occupying an area of 1.7 acres in Mexico, down from 45 acres in 1996. An evolutionary strategy based on eating a common weed seemed smart — until Monsanto came along. Just one state along the monarchs' migration route, Iowa, is reported to have lost 98 percent of its milkweed…..

  • Homolumina Homolumina

    ….Monsanto products like Roundup dominate the agricultural market worldwide. This corporate giant sells matching genetically-engineered plants resistant to its pesticides — and encourages factory farms to douse fields with gallons of Monsanto's herbicides.

    But sprayed over vast areas, these poisons effect the entire ecosystem. Monsanto's Roundup is also wiping out the monarchs' primary food source — a plant called milkweed. Scientists have linked the monarch's rapid population decline to the spread of Monsanto's pesticides. Losing these butterflies means wiping out insects, birds and small mammals that rely on the monarch and its place in the food chain.

    Tell Monsanto to save the monarchs by pulling its ecosystem-threatening herbicide.

    Every second we wait is another second closer to the monarch’s extinction. We helped wake up the world to the danger of Bayer's pesticides on the bees. Now let’s harness that awareness to save the monarchs from Monsanto!

    Thank you for being one of us,
    Taren, Angus, Hanna, Melanie and the team at SumOfUs.org

    • Paulie777

      Yes, Monsato is a result of the failure to learn lessons from the past because the lure of profit is greater. Such with nuclear, and coal and Pharma and the list goes on. Coal: Not one case of black lung disease was allowed by the adjudicators at John Hopkins Medical Center. Not one, at least that scam was caught and attended to. Not to mention horrible working conditions, company owned housing and company stores. Pharma: Despite record profits, one Pharma facility was so dirty it gave users of their expensive drug meningitis and killed their "customers". Nuclear: Despite great profits facilities are vulnerable and are giving innocent children thyroid cancer not to mention poisoning the planet. GMO's: Destroying the ecosystem while simultaneously giving people genetically modified product they call "food". Nuclear power is not the killer here, its the humans lust for profit.

  • Nick

    Today TEPCO discovered that Fukushima had gone from SNAFU to FUBAR.

    Wow!!

    • GQR2

      Hi Nick ,aka merry sunshine 😉 up above there is a conversation snippet about neutron beams.
      and Fall Out found some really good pictures of that hunk of murderous junk known as the Mark One reactor.
      its all kinds of critical. full on critical. critical beyond critical.
      FUBAR is heading into…

      • GQR2

        oh and the footballers are running scrimmages all over.
        Closer the truth gets to coming out, closer people get to group consensus and awareness the more empowered we become and the more nervous they get.

  • Paulie777

    A person with cystic fibrosis will die early because their genetic makeup that once long ago was helpful to humans is no longer needed. Addiction was also a very helpful thing long ago as it was needed to keep getting that scarce food to survive. We need neither the genes for cystic fibrosis or an addictive nature now that we have evolved. You can no more blame people for the lust for profits just as you can blame a cystic fibrosis patient for having a flawed salt-chloride channel. They both are deadly, but are also part of our genetic heritage. The only thing is cystic fibrosis will kill one person but an addictive social lust for profits will kill us all. This genetic legacy and our recently acquired "intelligence" is simply a death sentence for the majority of us. We should celebrate it and be thankful for what we have.

  • bozzy54

    Anyone worried about the Russian satellite cosmic-1220 crashing to earth tomorrow. More radiation to worrie about?

  • muffin

    Ah shut up a your face, it's a nice a place. We are so fucked! Thank you trusted officials! Thank you very much!

  • pinksailmatt pinksailmatt

    If we have any building engineers out there, you might want to take a peek as to a certain "passive" system that was installed on the 2ndary containment building structures over there…that being the side "blow out panels".

    This structure was, no doubt, designed to handle an internal H2 detonation by way of the blow-out panels.

    These are basically weaker designed elements (wall panels in this case) that are allowed to fail (Blow out) during an explosive event. They are used in many industrial facilities to mitagate the extensive damage that can be done inside the building in the case of an explosive gas event…like silane for example.

    These should have been designed to allow this type of pressure out, without trashing the building.

    But they didn't. Why?

    • razzz razzz

      Some of the panels were made to open up (kinda like old garage doors) and relieve or equalize building pressure but TEPCO had them welded shut. Didn't want to panic anyone by seeing the panels agape.

      Unit 2 had a panel go missing but TEPCO never says or knows how it came to be, some workers reported it gone. Saved the building more than likely by allowing any hydrogen to escape. Still lost the core with melt down and out.

  • pinksailmatt pinksailmatt

    And why do I have to grow tomatoes that look like this?

  • Speedy

    He's back !!!!!! I wondered how long it would be before the rebirth…how much chaos and discontent can he cause this time…..

    nip it in the bud…

  • Sam Sam

    ExpertNuc sure sounds like Socref or a clone of him. The reappearance tells us that
    things are getting far worse at Fukushima.
    Also there is an exponential awakening here on West Coast of America and other places
    due to the ongoing contamination of our land, water, air and food. So the shills come out to
    destroy our credibility at this time. They must be running very scared. There is an avalanche
    of information forthcoming that they cannot control.

    • And hurrah to the People informing and getting the rad wod out to each other. For folks just landing, there are things you can do, including take steps to mitigate radiation and links to demanding your representatives start testing for Fukushima
      http://enenews.com/forum-best-practices-combating-effects-radiation/comment-page-12#comment-439105

    • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

      Yes, the West Coast and it looks like I missed a nuc party here today, but I see the dragon slayers did their job! Good Show! 🙂

      Spent 6 hours in the beautiful city of San Francisco today and what a buzzing place it was, and yes, people were everywhere and one reason I do not go very often. They were all living life large and very, very busy doing human things. Talked with quite a few people and few knew anything about Fukushima or the Dead Sea Snot 100 miles off the West Coast or even about dead melting star fish from Alaska to Mexico and they really did not look like they really cared… 🙁

      They were all very busy shopping! 🙁

      My report is this and I looked for it everywhere inside the city and what I looked for was wild life, anything that moved that was not in the human species form and I will report there was nothing! 🙁

      Not one bird was seen in the sky or on the wire in 8 hours of daylight.. 🙁 No bird poop seen either and that is a bad sign, since that would mean no bird life had been around in the last 96 hours…

      It's all dead and gone! 🙁

      The real next big Nuclear Disaster question will be.. what species will be the next one to disappear?

      • unincredulous unincredulous

        I am curious Obewan, did you take any photos or videos of the absence of wildlife? That yachtsman who said there was three thousand miles of dead ocean showed nothing to prove it. Many said that if there are no pics, it didn't happen. You would think that television stations would be reporting the missing wildlife there.

        As for the yachtsman, I think if I saw no life at sea I would not have taken pictures. Maybe the whale with a tumor, but that could have happened quickly and why have a camera at hand when there is nothing to see?

        • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

          uni, I could have taken pictures, but there would be nothing to see, but buildings and human beings. There are very few people that know what is going on in the US with what appears to be the ongoing collapse of the food chain along the ocean on our west coast or for that matter anything about the current crises/events going on at Fukushima, Japan. I do not think people are noticing what I am noticing, since they are not looking for wildlife, and appear to be in some type of tunnel visioned brain trance revolving/swirling around their own little worlds. I had hope that things would recover, but alas, I think any recovery in the wildlife populations will be very sporadic at best for some time in the future. I went looking and nothing was there is very bad news for everybody on the west coast.

          We have had a couple pretty bad rain storms the last couple of weeks which helped the drought out here and I was under the impression most of the radiation fallout had already hit the ground by now. I think I might be wrong, since in the first rain storm I got a bloody nose, and in today's rain storm I got another bloody nose. The last time I got bloody noses was from the nuclear bomb testing in the 50's when I was a kid as it flew overhead. 🙁 I must be sensitive to this nuclear crap. The term bioaccumulation is great word and tricky to understand based on the types of radiation released into our environment and it appears to be happening and levels are increasing. 🙁

      • underfish

        @Obewanspeaks
        I think you forgot to look in the trees to find the birds….and Im sure if there were no wild animals in the city there would be no domesticated animals or I why would the wild animals be gone and not the domestic ones…In fact did you look in the alleys for the rats or got to Golden Gate park and see the squirrels or down to ocean beach and see the damn sea roaches oh I mean sea-gulls flying around the trash cans….and wait what about the zoo, those are wild animals and they are still alive….
        This is the second time you have posted this non-sense about Ca not having wild life and its dead…last time was about the tide pools on the coast…
        YOU ARE SPREADING DISINFORMATION
        YOU ARE CLUELESS

        • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

          underfish, I can only tell you what I saw when I looked out and up and all around in the 29th street areas and there was nothing to be seen that is called wildlife. There was no rain and no reason for birds to be hiding in trees and not to be out flying around in San Francisco. No, I did not go down any alley looking/crawling around on my knees looking for rats, but that is a great idea maybe I will find something alive that is not human. I did see a few domesticated animals and people were walking them around and only a few of these animals looked healthy. 🙁

          What should the percentage of wild life to human populations be? Would you call healthy 1 bird for every 100,000 humans? Saw none on the hour drive in and out of the city and I was looking for anything called wildlife. nope, nada, zilch. I have seen a resurgence of wildlife up here in the foothills, so I was hopeful. I can only report what I experience.

          I guess my point is that wildlife is unsheltered and therefore the negative impacts would be much greater on their populations first as the natural food chain slowly becomes contaminated and then consumed by such wildlife. I have a new bag of cat food in my office and both of my cats will not touch the food and my 2 dogs will not eat it either. This cat food will be returned to the store, since my domesticated animals may sense this food is contaminated with something and yes that could be radiation contamination.

          If you have pictures please post!

          • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

            underfish, I also reported two convertible car trips down the West Coast Line from California to Oregon and back on Route 1 in the summers of 2011 and 2012. There was no wildlife anywhere to be seen on these two 1500 mile round trips and this has been reported by many others too.. 🙁

            You can't take pictures of something that does not exist or is not there… 🙁

  • Tedd Tedd

    I don't believe Expertnuc is Socref in any fashion. He speaks with conviction in his ideas.

    Even better he doesn't brown nose around like Socref. His sin seems to be that he goes against the grain here.

    He doesn't trust these expert bastards. I don't either. Kindly get off his ass for awhile.

    • weegokiburi weegokiburi

      Couldn't agree more.
      Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

    • yogda yogda

      Tedd,

      You are in the extreme minority believing that.
      He is nothing more than a paid disinformation agent placed to quell the layman's interest.

      Do you really think for one second the nuclear industry wouldn't employ people, bots, media, scientists etc when their multi trillion dollar enterprise is at risk? Or are you his son?

      It doesn't matter what blood type you are, we're in trouble.

  • unincredulous unincredulous

    The contamination is outside of the "containment." The contamination is outside of the "containment." The contamination is outside of the "containment."

    • unincredulous unincredulous

      Containment no longer computes. Containment is invalid. Nuclear power companies can not contain the radiation. Radiation is DANGEROUS.

      The containment program will self-destruct at random intervals. The containment program is a failure. Terminate program. Terminate nuclear power construct. Logic. Logic. Logic.

  • HoTaters HoTaters

    IMO someone, somewhere doesn't want us analyzing and studying this recent news too closely. I was trained in forest tracking in my youth, and have practiced most of my life. My nose and the tracks tell me I'm close to the quarry/one I'm tracking.

  • or-well

    Seen enough yet folks?
    83 posts of rubbish should tell you what you need to know.

  • RememberThis RememberThis

    Its called derailment….

    Just dont respond to the clown.

  • tsfw tsfw

    New tv show expected to air in March. Directors are trying to talk about it in their own ways. I've mentioned the starfish in the sets of three different popular tv shows lately and the mention of the actual word Fukushima on Hawaii 5-0 and Rake.

    Here's the trailer :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buVWdktiO2A

    • bo bo

      Here's my recent find on tv – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EonNnuVhtGk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

      It's opposite to yours, just something that shows how clueless the public is about dangers surrounding children.
      In this advertisement, suburban parents are seen in a pissing contest about who is the most well informed about raising kids properly and safely.
      Very poignant, when you watch this knowing none of these types of parents, who pride themselves in scouring information about parenthood are usually completely clueless about protecting their children from radiation.

      • tsfw tsfw

        Bo that was great- that's what moms at the park sound like too. When mine were little I would sit there listening to them reverberate the latest 'factoid' from someone trying to sell them something as though just possessing the knowledge somehow made them better parents. Then two months later, they're talking about how the item has been recalled for safety issues haha.

        • bo bo

          Tsfw – isn't it ?! I'm such an awful human being but even though I love kids and play with my friends' kids all the time I have never wanted my own because I just hated park / PTA conversations and social life enough to make me not really want kids of my own. ( plus I'm way too lazy 😉 I just couldn't handle organizing play groups and car pools and soccer teams with other parents. Especially soccer teams lol.

          • tsfw tsfw

            That doesn't make you an awful human being, it makes you superior in my book. So many people have kids because they think it's the next step they should take in life. People are even sheep about the way they reproduce haha. Borrowing is good- hand them back when they're sticky, shitty or whiny 🙂

            • john dpugh

              tsfw you said "So many people have kids because they think it's the next step they should take in life'"
              that is the biggest threat to humanity , right there. that has to change or we will go extinct .

              • bo bo

                Ps – John dpugh
                I hope you read my apology for shooting from the hip and basically calling you the dumbest person in the universe. In case you missed it, I apologize here.
                I backtracked after re reading your posts, and have been enjoying reading your contributions.
                Learned my lesson.

                • john dpugh

                  bo Oh i just saw your message sorry for not replying . I come and go so i miss the message soemtimes . Forget about it .
                  I enjoy reading your contributions as well .You have been posting here for a long time .
                  Keep up the good work .

            • bo bo

              Tsfw I think some people just live their lives from one Hallmark card to another.. if we could get the writers to become more creative and original at Hallmark, perhaps we could have more people living more unique lives…?

  • danger kitty danger kitty

    The last month has been so nice with a certain 'someone' gone. I've enjoyed reading all the posts and comments in the main forum–all the old timers and a lot of new folks in a smooth, flowing, focused discussion. A thing of beauty and elegance.
    Now this knucklehead that doesn't worry about anything. Even his user name is a thinly veiled slam on Stock
    DAMN IT PEOPLE- remember Gasser's Rule ignore him, he's just a waste of time.Just YAWN.
    Don't make me get out the chainsaw.
    I like Johnny B's idea better. Preparation H in his shoes. Until very recently Prep H contained mercury as an active ingredient. Maybe we can special order some for him.
    YAWN.

    • Homo Insapiens Homo Insapiens

      "I've enjoyed reading all the posts and comments in the main forum–all the old timers and a lot of new folks in a smooth, flowing, focused discussion. A thing of beauty and elegance."

      Indeed.

    • ExpertNuc

      Sorry to rain on your parade. Ive been reading some of the posts and have found them highly inaccurate and thus have been compelled to speak up. If people cant get their facts straight then dont perpetuate a lie. My big pet peeve with the approach here is that radiation in very low quantities has not been definitively proven to harm humans.

      • SykeWar(DELETED) SykeWar

        "My big pet peeve with the approach here is that radiation in very low quantities has not been definitively proven to harm humans." The evidence that exists will never be compiled into a definitive answer. And it never will be. Too damaging to too many people. But then you know this. So what's your point? You say you're an expert? Show your credentials. What do you have to hide?

      • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar VanneV

        It has been definitively proven that low dose radiation is actually a supra linear model. And why do you rule out all the other species of animal? Humans are just another species of animal. And low dose radiation has been definitely been proven to be even higher than a low no threshold model when examining all the diseases that are caused by radiation.

  • rogerthat

    Isn't it wonderful, three years on and no-one in authority is prepared to even address the issue. All we get is anonymous arseholes. Distract, distract, distract. When are governments, regulators, scientists, experts, elected representatives, anyone at all — the World Health Organisation, the UN, — going to tell people they have been wallowing in 1000-odd tonnes of nuclear core spread out over the globe – in the air, on land, in the oceans and rivers and lakes – for the last three years? Maybe it's 800 tonnes. Maybe it's 1500 tonnes. Is this a matter of public interest? Should people be told?

  • Thanksforplaying

    The trap he want's to set is to choke the thread by enticing the people who are genuinely a match for him, who can, and ( unfortunately) will trade with him. Please don't take the bait. By typing a really good reply, we have lost any "debate" and contributing to shit in our own backyard. Report and move on.
    Remember, he is paid for this and has no option but to try to engage. We, however, do so let's exercise the option to trade info not try to be the one that gives him the knockout blow. You won't as psychotics can have superhuman strength!

    • lostworld lostworld

      Thank You! I tried to say this last time when ole scoref was crapping in our yard.To reply to them is to empower them. Stop feeding them, by doing so you hand over control to them. Please just ignore them.

    • Sickputer

      I have no problems conversing with nuclear proponents on forums, either here or at pro-nuclear centric sites. As long as they are polite I respect their right to post opposing comments as much as I appreciate the same courtesy at Forbes.

      Argue with knowledge and purpose, not anger. No one can push your buttons without your permission.

      Stay the course Enenewsers.

      • ocifferdave

        We have another 'Socref'?! Sweet!
        I use pro nuclear types (be them trolls or one's that honestly believe the industry is good) as a way to fire me up for real world action.

        Both times I announced to the pro nuke types recently (to Socref and Artika) that their comments will motivate me to send flyers to universities on the Pacific Coast, postcards to US and foreign consulates within the Pacific Rim, and some signs around my home town for every comment they make, they absolutely disappear and never return again that same day.

        I hope it was just coincidence, because when they leave they leave a hole in my heart. Hopefully this new pro nuke person (I just logged in and found you guys talking about one, I still don't know their username) will stay around and fire me all the way up and get my momentum going!

      • john dpugh

        SIckputer I think its easy to blame anyone being rude to ban him from the site as well . I agree totally that we should be polite and respectfull in our conversations but as i read the arguments i see that we were much more rude to him than he was to us .
        I think a bit more understanding is needed here to have freedom of speech for everyone , before we can start name everyone a shill to get them thrown out so we can keep it all for ourselves, Or we are going to prove him right as he was blaming us of conspiracy theorists .
        I dont agree with mny peopel here as well and there are also many false claims , but as long as antinuke we tolerate them . I think we need to be able to do the same to pronukers as well.
        If he was a shill / troll or paid representative of anyone at least he would be a bit better educated . He was just some misinformed guy IMHO.

  • rogerthat

    On the bright side, there appears to be nothing wrong with enenewsers' immune systems — the arrival of expert nucklehead has brought forth the antibodies, big time. Socref would be impressed.

    • tsfw tsfw

      Right and another good reason to ignore him is that admin will see that it's all him and nobody is instigating or perpetuating him. He'll either get bored of getting no reaction, or admin will see that he's a one man band.

      • john dpugh

        I dont agree that he is a shill or he is deliberately here only to damage the forum .
        I think he is just one guy (or girl) with some information who thinks he/she knows it better.
        He even calls himself expert , but his statements and his knowledge shows he is no expert and thus no shill.
        Instead of attacking him we should try to inform him by having discussions and trying to convince him about the dangers of this industry and what the consequences will be if nothing is done about it .
        He just needs good correct information and no attacks IMHO.

        • zogerke zogerke

          @john dpugh- I respect and appreciate the decency and fairness to others, shown in your posts. I respectfully disagree with your opinion. Having been on line here through the onslaught of the 'socref' phenomena, there are a series of familiar lines, tactics, statements, attitudes, phrases, timing…..that posting EneNewswers who persisted here, IMO, learned to recognize. I see the pattern in the responses, language and timing. The similarities are remarkable. And this thread has now half a thousand comments to it.
          Last night there were incredible visual releases from the plant, at least according to the webcam watchers who have captured them, citing possible gamma ray releases. I don't know, but it looked to me like a 'troll' derailment and distraction tactic from 'the other side'. One can come here and argue with a difference of opinion and engage in discussion. I read stalking, personal attacks, and disinformation ('hormesis') in all those posts. And so, the conclusion of 'paid shill'.

        • Go Flying

          Au contraire John dpugh, he doesn't need good information – he just needs a good whack up side of his head with a 2 x 4.

          This dog does hunt and would be happy to courteously oblige.

          • john dpugh

            go flying He got a virtual whack up , yesterday i think 🙂

          • ExpertNuc

            So your answer is physical violence? Is that your approach? No compassion thus no empathy for people who are not of your persuasion. Your credibility to direct empathy to the people of Japan is questionable.

            "What so ever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me."

            • SykeWar(DELETED) SykeWar

              It's called self-defense shill. You pronuke shills must really be worried to be here. Always a good sign folks. When they gotta infiltrate your group to see where you get your info., in case they missed anything, so they can then attack those sources and shut them up, you know you're over the target. Dig in folks.

        • ExpertNuc

          I like your approach. However I dont have all the answers. I disagree with your low level radiation position which frankly, is just your opinion and not a matter of science or fact. If "all radiation is dangerous" then the human race would not have evolved to what it is today. Some radiation is not dangerous. And no one has isolated the one single radioactive atom impinging on one single DNA strand to lead to a definitive cancer. Its just theory extrapolated from larger doses.

          • john dpugh

            Expertnuc Cumulative harmful effect means all radiation is harmful . It is about how much you get radiated which shows an observable effect or not .
            If i get a chest x-ray would there be any observable effects on me ? Would you be able to see if i had an x-ray or not ?
            Saying there is no observable effect doesn't make it less harmful. Every x-ray brings me one step closer to an observable effect .

      • ExpertNuc

        Admin wont ban me. I have to keep you honest.

  • Sickputer

    Jd +311 🙂

    That's the spirit. No man is an island. We all have loved ones and regardless of occupations we want our family line and friends to thrive and survive.

    Do we really think that the governments can turn off the plants in the next month and walk away?

    Well, in America that could happen if the New York reactor destroyed the trillion dollar economy. But chances are another Fukushima event is going to be down the line a few years. It will happen again though unless they begin phasing them out quickly.

    But my point is we should not fire those 10 million workers just yet because this industry and waste has to be laid gently to rest and properly. Phase down the industry, but we know they will need workers for waste sites for a million years. There's not likely to be any innovative cleanup technology developed to quickly or permanently eliminate those poisons from the planet.

    • john dpugh

      sickputer I think first we need to make them stop producing even more waste , even more nuclear plants.
      There seems to be many more "risky" nuclear plants , like the one we have been discussing about in another thread ( Metsamor in armenia ) And international agency seems to be only extending their licence''s again and again even though they don't even fit their qualifications .
      It seems we are only getting started and we have a long way to go .
      Nuclear has to go , the sooner the better .100% agreed on that .

    • Sickputer

      SP: "Do we really think that the governments can turn off the plants in the next month and walk away?"

      SP: Ok… Bad form to reply to my own thread in this monster length thread, but please forgive. 🙂

      Yes, the Japanese have done so (turned off all 54 nuclear units countryside) at a great cost of replacement energy from imported oil and gas.

      Does that fact alone fully indicate the really DIRE health hazards the government has come to realize dealing with radiation poisoning they haven't disclosed fully? It must be far worse than we can imagine.

      Yes, they talk of firing back up a few reactors. They are broke financially and scared.

      But I think the Japanese citizens would sacrifice low energy prices in exchange for a clean country. These people live longer than almost anywhere else in the world! And now they are headed to Neanderthal lifespans.

      It must be horrific in central Japan for even the most stoic obedient citizen.

      Be ready to witness the 2014 Great Summer of Discontent in Tokyo.

  • Sickputer

    The Green Party support was essential to German Chancellor Angela Merkel's 2011 decision to immediately shutter 41% of the reactors (the 8 reactors predating 1981) and the rest by 2022.

    75% of the people in Germany oppose nuclear power:

    Physicist Amory Lovins has said: "Chancellor Merkel was so shocked by Fukushima that she turned Germany’s energy focus from nuclear (of which she closed 41% and will close the rest within a decade) to efficiency and renewables. That’s supported by three-fourths of Germans and opposed by no political party".

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Germany

    SP: Rumors of a financial or electricity backlash were proven unfounded. Germany's economy is robust and has shown they can manage a modern society without nuclear power plants. There will not be a Nuclear Renaissance in Germany. But they like all other nations remain subject to pollution from other nuclear nations with the largest users being America, Russia, China, India, France, and Great Britain.

    Instead of arguing about military nuclear proliferation they should address their own stinky nuclear power industries. Those superpowers might kill the world by "accident", not Iran or North Korea.

    • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

      The same country that now has included various designations for the gender classification for/of their offspring.. 🙁

      Honey what is that? Gee, honey I am not sure.. 🙁 How many testicles does it have? 🙁

      Shut all this Nuclear Crap down now..worldwide! Do it quickly!