Published: December 14th, 2011 at 4:42 am ET
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Unit 4 at Daiichi Cut Off, Didn’t Fall Off, SimplyInfo, Dec. 13, 2011:
- It is unlikely that the portion of unit 4 that is no longer there fell off
- More likely based on looking at images it was cut off
- Marks where the remaining unit begins are clean breaks
- Is unit 4 falling apart? Yes
- Very unstable
- Far from safe or able to withstand a significant quake
- Back top (near unit 3) shifted during a quake over the summer
- But the entire top section above the pool appears to be a planned action
SOURCE: SimplyInfo
See photos here
UPDATE
EX-SKF has just posted more information here: Reactor 4 Is NOT Falling Apart (Yet); It Was Cleanup/Demolition Work by TEPCO
Published: December 14th, 2011 at 4:42 am ET
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Appears to be an improved poolside view from the Tepco condo.
Then again, it does look rather “clean cut” as opposed to the collapse of a deteriorating structure. Could this be a “better” method of ventilation?
If this was a intentional modification of the building, (1) how was it done, (2) is it possible for a human to withstand the punishment that exists inside that building, to preform such a task?
I have not keep up with the photo’s, over time, of this building. Can anyone verify that this “missing wall” is actually a “recent” occurrence?
(Not much “inside” left there, is there)
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Info about the workers, 18,000 of them as of Sept, 2011.
Fukushima Workers Risk Radiation to Feed Families
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,786650,00.html
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Thanks, NoNukes, for saying it better than most of us ever could!
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posted on wrong one?
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Maybe they are trying to cope with the demands to strengthen the building against EQs: it’s hard to be building up new concrete stuctures if you got loose parts of walls etc. making your work even more difficult. Or then they could be making arrangements to try to reduce the amount of spent fuel elements by somehow robotically, by cranes, do the lifting of the older, cooler fuel elements to spent fuel elements transport containers. If I were a TEPCO engineer I would be urgently trying to arrange as much SF away from the pool as possible. All this demands much room around it and maybe cannot be done at all, but still – just guessing…
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Let’s hope they’re trying to move some of the fuel out of the SFP, and maybe reinforcing the building.
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I posted this on the webcam thread, but it posted quite above the previous post by mungo:
On the TBS/JNN cam there an orangish blob just to the right of reactor #4 that is pulsing. I have never seen this before. The green place just to the right of reactor #3 is larger than I have seen it before and is pulsing more than I have seen it before.
It is 10:21 on the JNN cam and still going on.
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The missing parts might explain what the cranes have been lifting and dumping into the lagoon..and it also might explain what the emergency vechiles were doing at Reactor 4. See the Fukushima Webcam discussion,and video captures. Any workers would be disposable in the dismanting scenario.
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I agree with this analysis. I didn’t say, but my first impression was that they had removed the top in order to access the fuel pool more readily.
Someone here had what I thought was a good idea the other day. I have no idea how feasibile it is.
Why not dig a giant pit next to reactor 4 that can be filled with water when the fuel pool eventually collapses?
I’m sure it’s not that easy – but I’m also sure that would be preferable to letting it burn in place.
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I suspect that the ground next to reactor #4 would not hold water. Part is porous sedimentary rock and part is landfill. Again they don’t seem to want to spend the money on any other structure like lining such a structure because earthquakes would cause unrepairable leaks.
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@Anne,
I thought I read somewhere they took the bluff overlooking the sea down to bedrock…
in case of earthguake…
making the site more vulnerable to a tsunami !
Wish I knew for sure.
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Limk provided by Misitu:
[Geology of Fukushima]
“I have talked with some of my colleagues (geology professors) today, and some of them knew for many years/decades that the bed rock of the Fukushima Daiichi Nuke Power Plant is soft sedimentary rock. They do not know why government (both national and local/prefectural) approved for the construction of the plant on such a bad spot, and can only think of*unethical acts of polititians and the industry.*Also,*my colleagues warn that the type of bed rock, which geologists identify,*and the strength/suitability of the*bed rock, which soil/geo-engineers determine, is different, even though I would*still support that*young sedimentary rocks below the Fukushima Daiichi Nuke Plant is NOT*suitable for constructing buildings that have to endure earthquakes. ”
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=3356008#post3356008
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Why Underground Entombment At
Fukushima Daiichi Won’t Succeed
By Yoichi Shimatsu, 7-28-11
“Fukushima No.1 rests on landfill comprising loose rock and sand over the natural seabed and is positioned only a couple of meters above the high tide mark. Water seepage and earthquake-caused liquefaction have seriously disturbed this rather weak soil structure….
“Much of the danger comes from simpler processes. Extremely hot magma, consisting of nuclear residues mixed with soil minerals, will boil any sea water seeping underground, creating pressurized steam.Think of oatmeal cooking in a pot and how bubbles create blow holes. The same is happening inside the landfill.
“The steam-created tubes harden when they cool, leaving lines of structural weakness. Eventually, these air pockets will collapse, and the massive weight of the water-filled reactors, piles of spent rods and their supporting structures will drop into deep sinkholes.
“If the magma tubes become filled with sea water, the landfill will resemble a gigantic sponge, prone to liquefaction and collapse under earthquake motion. Even the resonance vibrations from large machines could trigger the sudden opening of new sinkholes.
“Water holds other dangers as well, since it is a better medium for nuclear fission than the mix of stones, dirt and concrete now under the reactors. Once sea water seeps into the newly opened underground channels, the fissile particles will become free-floating and fire neutrons into bits of uranium, plutonium and other isotopes, triggering cascades of fission. The resulting steam pressure is volcanic, bursting out of the ground and spewing vast amounts of radioactive material into the atmosphere. The oatmeal spatters across the stove top. …”
http://www.rense.com/general94/whyf.htm
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Christopher Busby said it will all eventually end up in the sea. Makes you wonder.
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I heard we’re having pancakes
so I guess they’re to go then.
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Faults unconsidered in the seismic design of Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear … Map of Outer sea from Shioyazaki” (Geological Survey Japan, 2001)
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/betu11_e/images/110531e4.pdf
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Thanks Anne,
clearly a bad site in an already earthquake-prone nation.
(not saying there’s any good sites for NPPs !).
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Geological insanity….
Look at the one’s in California…etc…..madness.
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Destroy evidence of reactor failure, sfp failure, human failure.
Muck up crime scene, only speculation and grainy pictures left for history.
Hotel Fukushima, you can check it out any time you like, but the radiation never leaves….
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“Destroy evidence of reactor failure, sfp failure, human failure.
Muck up crime scene, only speculation and grainy pictures left for history.”
That’s a REALLY important point, Jebus.
For nine months and counting the perps have been the only ones allowed at the crime scene (other than one press-corps guided tour on a bus, complete with Tepco minders/handlers).
Westerners used to mock these practices when the Soviets did them.
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It seems this goes beyond collusion between TEPCO and the Japanese govt. to downplay it and hide the truth. “Circle the wagons, boys!” What’s at stake is the whole nuclear industry — and by extension, nuclear weapons programs. At least nuclear reactors and the nuke industry (power) is threatened. There are probably discussions going on we’ll never know about. Many, many dirty deeds could be uncovered, in an industry filled with greed and corruption, power mongering, going back to WWII …. The players have a lot at stake. Of course they will obfuscate to the greatest degree possible.
Yes, you are so right, Jebus, they (TEPCO) are definitely in a position to hide a great deal if no one can go in, or can talk freely about what they see, hear, and experience onsite.
Someone posted a link here to the Nuremberg articles. After reading them, I realized many, many things industries and governments are doing today are truly “crimes against humanity” according to the Nuremberg article definitions.
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This is the kind of tabloid reporting that had us all, on the report that the wall fell, ready for the end.
It was pure conjecture the wall fell. I don’t blame enenews because tepco has a camera pointing at this disater but fails to give us a hint of what is going on. Silence seems to imply they are more incompetent then they are. That is if they were able to remove the wall. That’s pretty impressive considering the debri and radioactivity. Of course, maybe nothing is left in storage pool anyway.
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entropy: “Silence seems to imply they are more incompetent then they are.”
NoNukes: This is pure conjecture, and I’m doubtful. There probably aren’t words to express how incompetent they are, though.
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It didn’t have us all. Many got really uneasy that day though it appeared from the comments. I thought it was conjecture then because I was watching the cams at the time and saw it. I had posted it several times across previous threads but comments are so many and hard to miss and no one knows whose opinion of vision to trust. Maybe watching the cams will get you more familiar so you can not rely on someone else’s opinion.
As for the other, I do think others do or could or at least did a better job and they should turn the other ones off immediately.
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Pure conjecture but maybe they cut the wall to gain access to the fuel pool. They may be secretive about the operation because they are planning to dump the mess into the ocean. They may be forced into this choice as the lesser of two evils, the other choice being to wait for spent fuel pool to fall down.
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I did say on the earlier post that I watched a crane doing this on TBS/JNN. It’s parked tonight right by the building, on the right. Sometimes I’m afraid to comment or assert my views because I fear I might be seen as too conservative in my photo interps. I think Mark may be right on the dumping. What else, realistically, can they do?
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“I might be seen as too conservative in my photo interps.” Risabee, please don’t self-censor, otherwise the only interps we see will be those that aren’t conservative enough.
I think all interps are useful if they are made in a spirit of thoughtful, honest assessment. Agenda-driven stuff… not so much.
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Build some kind of wall around the SFP, even if an earth berm reinforced with concrete? Build a concrete wall first, then backfill on the outside with earth? Then at least there’s a chance it would hold water and could be cooled. Cranes could probably be driven up the side of an earth berm to remove the fuel rods (if such were possible). Maybe this is a question that could be answered by engineering and physics experts? One has to wonder what they may be considering.
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Then again, maybe there’s not enough room around the outside of the building to make such a thing feasible.
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I wouldn’t Risabee. Especially when you’re watching and see something weird, post – who cares if it’s named wrong, the description is what matters. Often it’s so shaky it’s hard to tell and what may appear to be white waves of water could be steam, red radioactivity could just be smoke with red light, etc. Do post please, I know I at least appreciate your assessments I see.
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The wall didn’t fall down..it was a planned removal of debris…How the hell… did the wall become debris?
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xdrfox
December 13, 2011 at 9:42 pm · Reply
Unit 4 at Daiichi Cut Off, Didn’t Fall Off
Dec 13th, 2011
[Translate] It is unlikely that the portion of unit 4 that is no longer there fell off. More likely based on looking at images it was cut off. The marks where the remaining unit begins are clean breaks like they were cut rather than broke off. There is no rubble on top of the spent fuel pool. If all of this fell away during a quake in recent days there would be a pile of considerable rubble on top of the spent fuel pool. If you inspect the photos closely it is a nice clean cut and very tidy in the manner the rubble was cleaned off. TEPCO did mention in earlier reports they were going to try to remove rubble at both units 3 and 4. Unit 3 has been plagued …
http://www.simplyinfo.org/?p=4324
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Daaaang! Went to the simplyinfo.org pictures, and it looks like there are fuel rod assemblies lying around all over the roof, and on the ground. Scarey, scarey pictures. At least that’s what it looks like, based on Arnie Gunderson’s description of the fuel rods, and diagrams of the reactors. Hellish working conditions.
If the workers have gotten that cleaned up (fuel rods lying around all over the place), that’s quite a feat, and they deserve to be given much credit for a job well done, IMHO!
I guess I’d rather see a lot of fuel rods lying around than knowing they burned up or got vaporized. One fuel rod intact is one less in the atmosphere, soil, or leaching into the ocean and groundwater.
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On the other hand, they have to be intensely radioactive if they’re lying around on the ground. They are, after all, supposed to be cooled, all the time. But I hope you get my drift …. At least if the fuel rods are intact, there is hope of disposing of them or putting them back into a cooling pond (or SOMETHING BESIDES BURNING/VAPORIZATION).
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Detailed photos on the planned demolition of parts of the reactor building (roof) can be found on page 27 of the TEPCO report from Nov 17, 2011:
http://www.box.com/s/ho16qk2vfva4ctq32ruo
Hope this helps to increase clarity about what is happening.
Steve
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Thanks, Steve. Is there any mention about the side wall?
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Thank you Stevemark, the info you provided is in depth from Tepco…shows J village, soccer stadium, used for the workers and their dorms. Shows the bracing and much much more. Thanks again!
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