Scientists ‘Alarmed’ and ‘Puzzled’: Hundreds of sea turtles washing up dead on Pacific coast — Dogs “stopped breathing and died almost instantly” when eating them — Researchers analyzing toxicity — Many with reproductive problems

Published: November 12th, 2013 at 11:27 am ET


AFP, Nov. 12, 2013 (Emphasis Added): Hundreds of sea turtles are washing up dead on the beaches of Central America and scientists don’t know why. One hypothesis is that the killer is a potent neurotoxin that can be produced by algae during red tides, […] What puzzles scientists is the fact that red tides have come and gone before without taking such a deadly toll on turtles. […] In El Salvador, for instance, from late September to the middle of October, 114 sea turtles were discovered dead on Pacific coast […] Scientists throughout Central America are alarmed […] The death toll elsewhere is high — 115 so far this year in Guatemala, 280 in Costa Rica and an undisclosed number in Nicaragua. Another 200 died in late 2012 in Panama. And in Nicaragua there is yet another problem: turtles showed up weeks late, at the end of September, to crawl up onto the beach and lay their eggs. […] In one area of El Salvador’s coast, dogs that started eating dead turtles stopped breathing and died almost instantly. […] in September scientists in Honduras said turtles on one beach laid 40 per cent fewer eggs. […]

Costa Rica Star, Nov. 12, 2013: […] Fishermen and maritime tour operators in the Guanacaste province found more than 40 dead sea turtles on Tuesday, November 5th, and immediately alerted nature conservation officials. Marine biologists are still looking into the possible causes for these massive deaths, which extend throughout the Pacific coast of Central America. […] [They may] have run into nets and fishing hooks. They also present signs of concussions near their skulls. Still, researchers are conducting pathological analyses to rule out toxicity.[…] Researchers in Costa Rica, however, are leaning towards a neurological syndrome […]

See also: [intlink id=”fishermen-report-their-boats-are-surrounded-by-hundreds-of-dead-eastern-pacific-green-sea-turtles-official-says-some-found-swimming-in-circles-as-if-dazed-and-confused” type=”post”]{{empty}}[/intlink]

Published: November 12th, 2013 at 11:27 am ET


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160 comments to Scientists ‘Alarmed’ and ‘Puzzled’: Hundreds of sea turtles washing up dead on Pacific coast — Dogs “stopped breathing and died almost instantly” when eating them — Researchers analyzing toxicity — Many with reproductive problems

  • TheBigPicture TheBigPicture

    Locations of dead sea life points to the recent nuclear disaster.

    Happening more and more, continually, getting worse, effecting more species.

    • digitalaardvarks digitalaardvarks

      there goes south america as safer. i am tired of all these articles saying the scientists are puzzled and concerned and have no idea why these things are happening. we are not a bunch of morons. when santa cruz, ca was sprayed aerially in 2007 for 4 nights in a row bird deaths were blamed on a red tide. there was an excuse for everything. sometimes 9 months later an article would come out explaining why peoples pets died while they were spraying untested time release pesticides on our heads. i left california. now there is nowhere to go. they broke the ocean, they broke the earth and they don't seem to care very much.

      • Time Is Short Time Is Short

        No, they don't.

        The big question is, how they are going to handle what's coming – with compassion, or with a boot on our neck?

        It will be interesting to watch what happens (there's no turning off this TV channel)

      • bo bo

        BS = 'Baffling Situation'

    • Patrick-Henry Patrick-Henry

      You got it Bigpic…damn…

    • A fisherman said that salmon all up and down the west coast are almost universally not going up the rivers, and catch is down 40 to 60%. They are staying in the ocean and not going into fresh water in the places he is aware of.

      This is HUGE… because if the salmon do not go up the rivers, they do not lay eggs and breed. That means the next generation is GONE.

      • moonman

        what i noticed fishing off the oregon coast was their was no herring or sardines in the salmons guts only krill and crab spawn and a few needle fish around central oregon. tuna fishing was differant this year too what littel i did ,seemed to me that the feed wasnt around like previus years, sold the boat after fishing for fourty years looks like death in a unamaginal scale out there to me .ill spend the rest of the time left with my family. lost my liveing at 57 who knows how long we got left with no real info just cover ups in the good old usa

      • babbo dorian babbo dorian

        Totally correct….

      • Keen

        Dr. G Don't take this the wrong way as my experience differed with the observations in your comment. Weeks ago I spent tens of minutes by a small river in Oregon thirty miles and three rivers inland and watched tow large salmon swim by. I had heard that the fish were running well and in less time than I usually spend each year I saw them. In that place at that time that is what I saw. I was not everywhere.

    • HoTaters HoTaters

      Corexit? The Gulf isn't that far from Costa Rica, geographically speaking. Would wonder first if spread of Corexit or other toxic chemicals, fracking waste, or other toxics are causing this problem — before suspecting radiation as the cause.

      • HoTaters HoTaters

        Yes, the chemicals would have to make it past Cuba and out into the Carribean Sea before reaching Costa Rica. More food for thought: there used to be a DU proving ground on the eastern side of Puerto Rico. If memory serves, it was located on Vieques Island. So maybe radiation is a cause, just maybe not Fukushima radiation.

        There is a lot of toxic pollution from point sources near the Carribean and South America, Brazil in particular. See open source geographic info. systems data on coral reef die-off. Reviewing the activities of multinational corporations in these areas is also instructive, in terms of considering possible point source pollution.

        • pinksailmatt pinksailmatt

          Ho Taters…I agree there are alot of point sources of radiation pollution…many we don't even know about that were just dumped in the ocean in 55 gal steel drums decades ago and no doubt rotting open. This article of the turtle deaths was on the Pacific side of Costa Rica, not the Carribean, so Fukishima is implicated and highly suspect.

      • HoTaters HoTaters

        And fracking waste can be radioactive, too.

        • HoTaters HoTaters

          That (above) was supposed to be in response to Hatrick Penry's post. Don't know why it ended up where it did.

  • SteveMT

    Both stories are in total denial of the only possible explanation for these turtle deaths until proven otherwise. Neither story gets within 8,000 miles of connecting these deaths with all of the other massive destruction that is occurring in the pacific ocean. No one wants to connect the dots. Neither story drops the "F-bomb" as even a remote possibility for such a global-scale lose of marine life.

  • Gradius

    No doubt the radioactivity mutated all kind of virus and bacteries preset on Ocean. We are just watching the beginning of the TRUE end of all life in this planet called Earth.

    • pinksailmatt pinksailmatt

      My guess is the smallest/shortest life span life forms will be mutated first and fastest. Larger, longer living life forms will have to look forward to a slower, more painful process, if they survive at all.

  • PurpleRain PurpleRain

    Wasn't there some underwater sonic-type of noise-blasts going on somewhere out there to study the bottom contours of the ocean floor? I remember reading something about that and all the protests that it would kill sea-life.

  • PurpleRain PurpleRain

    Don't you think it might be some kind of chemical if dogs died immediately? That doesn't seem like it would be radiation.

    • Slingerss Slingerss

      That could be the Toxins from Red Tide though. They become toxic themselves during Red Tide events. The same thing happened with the Sea Lions about 10? years ago, when they had a major Red Tide event there.

      • KDM KDM

        The red tide event you're speaking of, was that in the gulf? I can't remember how many years it's been but my family and I were on the coast in October. I do know it came to shore in the evening hours. Everyone was coughing, eyes watering, and nose running but didn't know what was going on until the next day. The ocean looked like mud water and everyone was sick. Probably six to eight years ago?

        • Slingerss Slingerss

          We have had a BAD year of Red Tide events in the Gulf. Almost 800 manatees have died from it this year alone.

          The one with the Sea Lions was on the West Coast (Southern Cali) and it was about 10? maybe more years ago. They had MANY sea lions that were stranded either dead, dying, or having seizures.

  • Slingerss Slingerss

    I want to see necropsy results. Sea Turtles are pretty resistant to many things. They can die off from Red Tide, Lethargic Loggerhead syndrome, Cold Stunning, or human caused which would be boat strikes, fishing line entanglements and hooks. I have read reports of the fishermen using "blast" methods to get more fish because of the collapse of the fish in the Pacific, so this could be one cause. Would like to see the toxicology reports on the others.

    • bwoodfield bwoodfield

      Cold stunning, boat impacts and blast fishing won't cause dogs to asphyxiate from eating the bodies.

      I doubt there will be any released toxicology reports, just like the sea lions this past spring, the sardines this summer and the sea stars this fall. Any test that is run the results will be vetted through a government facility and be cleansed.

    • Songie Songie

      slingers: yes, necropsy reports……all this "It must be radiation" just make the masses think we are hysterically crazy (all of my friends already think I've lost it…I can't just go around saying, "but radiation must be the reason, really, just because……." )

      need something a little more tangible to convince me about the turtles….I'm open to it being radiation, but not convinced at this point. i try to be careful about making sweeping generalizations…that does no one any good…

    • mhocker10

      they should check the stomachs for plastic.. if the fish are gone, a starving critter will eat anything to try and survive… and there is that state sized Island of Tsunami debris to take into account.

    • SteveMT

      These results will be overseen by TEPCO, and they will take approximately two years to complete. Just kidding,…..I hope.

  • Songie Songie

    when i look at the jet stream maps, i do not see where the jet stream from fuku really reaches central america…ditto with the ocean currents…certainly doesn't look like a direct hit…..

  • bwoodfield bwoodfield

    I commented on this last month when we saw the seastars start melting. It's the algae feeders and bottom forgers like the green sea turtles that are going to die first. The fish and other sea creatures come out of the rad-water and travel to the coast, contaminated with the radioactive particles. They die and their bodies break up or are eaten, spreading the particles. The bottom feeders and water cleaners like the sardines, seastars, coral, crabs, etc; ingest the floating material and get contaminated and sick. The bottom of the food chain in the ocean is being knocked out. Eventually the house of cards is going to collapse.

    My prediction: we're going to hear that the crab boats are going to be coming back with 1/2 of their usual catch this season, and what they are catching are sickly, with mutations and sores. And of course the scientific community will be baffled. Come spring we're going to have thousands of fish and other sea creatures washing up on shore with a brownish hazy water.

    • dharmasyd dharmasyd

      bwoodfield: I intend to eat dungeness crab as soon as the season opens. I'll ask someone to report my death when it happens: human being sheds its limbs and dissolves into a goo. I'll be 81 in January, and there is nothing to eat anyway. All our food is poisoned.

  • pinksailmatt pinksailmatt

    We are on a downward spiral out of control.

    It is interesting to take note the magnitude of building construction right now. Everyone I know in the construction industry is being OVERWHELMED with projects, most under designed and fast track schedule.

    Why is this interesting right now?

    Keep 'em too busy to take notice. Keep 'em too busy to make noise. Keep 'em with contracts in their hand, so they will be less opt to freak out when the SHTF.


    • Time Is Short Time Is Short

      A very plausible theory. Anything to keep the masses distracted from what's coming – economic, ecological and everything else.

    • mairs mairs

      That's because there is pent up demand for housing. As the real estate market recovered from all of the foreclosures and devaluations, prices are going up again and inventory is actually tight. Unless you can prove that the government is having houses built, I think that's a little too out there.

      • Time Is Short Time Is Short

        The only money available for credit is Fed money, so . . .

      • pinksailmatt pinksailmatt

        Being in the construction industry and actually building these things right now, I have talked to MANY owners of rental property in the last few months, including property managers working at large universitys and none of them are rented out 100%. Was the "pent up demand" you are talking about something you read?

    • Time Is Short Time Is Short

      Don't worry. The construction is about to stop:

      'Homebuilders' Cancellation Rate Surges To Highest Since December 2008'

      "Despite ongoing optimism that the housing recovery can withstand fire, brimstone, rising rates, and collapsing confidence (in spite of the fact that indications from most top-down data are to the contrary), investors in US homebuilders may need to adjust this morning. If DR Horton is any indication of a broad trend (and empirical comparisons with its peers show that it is) then the firm's huge miss in its cancellation rate (31.0% vs an expectation of 25.5%) in Q3 should be food for thought. The surge in cancellation was the largest MoM since mid-2008 and jumped to its highest since December 2008."

      • HoTaters HoTaters

        Have to agree. My neighborhood is full of graded lots with all utility hookups in place. No doubt sitting empty since the housing bubble burst in the U.S. in 2008. There are THOUSANDS of empty lots near here. Only about 1/2 of the planned development here got built out.

    • Keen

      pinksailmatt For the most part they are to busy keeping us to busy to notice. They notice when people do not work or something like that. To me it's the over employment problem. I took a saying from the sixties and seventies and adapted it, though I think it is past most peoples way of viewing things. My Adaptation is; Suppose They Gave an Economy and Nobody Came. I do not think there is a need for people to be "employed" as much as they are or to "consume" as much as they (we) do. I heard some blather on NPR today about how the rest of the world needs to share in the blame for pollution and environmental destruction and in practically the same sentence that we need to help them achieve our standard of living. Arn't we grand. Perhaps we should tell China we don't need their goods.

  • Grampybone Grampybone

    Trophic chaos in the Pacific. When the dogs eating the turtles die it's not bacterial/viral it's nuclear. Animals that have concentrated amounts of radiation will pass on a higher dose to any creature that prey's upon it. Most bacteria and viruses cannot make an animal keel over on the spot. Isotope concentration can easily and will be a story of humanity soon enough.

    • babbo dorian babbo dorian

      Grampybone,,, how sure are you about your statement?.. it seems to me very important to be considered.
      If you can further a little more I will thankyou.
      Best whishes,

  • Songie Songie

    can someone show me a map whereby the waters from fukushima are traveling to costa rica and central america…I'm not seeing it. thanks

  • Patrick-Henry Patrick-Henry

    There's no need for a map Songie…

    The Earth is connected…currents are connected…radiation is spreading like wildfire…it is the only true explanation for all of this death…and like Grampybone points out this will be the story of humanity soon enough.

    • Songie Songie

      well, i understand the sentiment but it just seems too far away, too soon, with no direct currents that I see which would make radiation a cause for sea turtles dying in central america….

      if only they would test the sardines and the star fish and the turtles……

      • Cataclysmic Cataclysmic

        Well, they didn't test the fish bleeding from their eyes, nor the polar bears or sea lions/otters.. so, I would not expect them to test sardines, star fish, and turtles. I am not sure there are any sardines to even test at this point.

      • Patrick-Henry Patrick-Henry

        Too soon Songie? Really?

        Over 2 1/2 years with massive radioactivity spewing into the ocean day in day out and it's too soon?

        C'mon…it's not a pretty thought but it is what it is and that's the truth of it…

        • Songie Songie

          i am H.O.P.I.N.G it's too soon to be hitting central american ocean currents…

          IF Kuroshio currents are just now hitting N Amer west coast….how on earth could it be in central america already…that's my only point/hope……

          though I know it's kinda pointless, "arguing" over the small details of when……

          • Patrick-Henry Patrick-Henry

            You are so right Songie…the finer points don't matter…I'm scared of this too…

            We're in this together…


      • Slingerss Slingerss I ate to be the bearer of bad news, but Central America is the second place that current goes too.
        There really is no place to hide. :-O

      • HoTaters HoTaters

        Bear in mind the admixture of water from the Northern Hemisphere into the Southern Hemisphere is much slower than that circulating around in the Pacific. Then, whatever gets circulated around into the Atlantic takes some time to get there. I suppose some water is going through the Panama Canal into the Carribean, but that's a relatively small "opening" between the Carribean Sea and Pacific Ocean.

        Am disagreeing with some others in saying it's more likely a local phenomenon. More likely to be one or more point sources of pollution in the Atlantic or Carribean, possibly the U.S. Gulf Coast. The oil is still spewing from the seafloor, in the Gulf.

        And possibly a red tide event exacerbated by pollution and/or radiation, which weakens organisms' immune defenses. Red tide can take out just about anything … contains very potent toxins. Mean to say if the sea turtles' immune defenses are already weakened, a red tide event could have a much more devastating effect on them (as could any pathogenic offender).

        • HoTaters HoTaters

          Meant to say, bear in mind the admixture of water from the Northern Hemisphere into the Southern Hemisphere is much slower than that the admixture of water circulating around in the Pacific.

          There's a great map (maybe posted above by Cataclysmic) showing the flow of currents from the Kurushio Current in Japan, northward past the Kuril Islands, past Canada, and southward to Baja California. There is also supposedly a portion which flows directly eastward from Japan to California. It splits at California, with one branch circulating northward, and one southward. I think that's on two different maps. Both have been posted here in Enenews articles, and by Enenews group members.

          Conventional "wisdom" of oceanographic experts says it takes many years for water from the Pacific to be mixed into the waters of the Atlantic.

          I'd suspect the airborne radiation sources from Fukushima have likely had more impact on all the Northern Hemisphere waters east of the U.S., Gulf, Caribbean, and Atlantic, than admixture of radiation contaminated water from Fukushima. Just my opinion and two cents' worth.

          • HoTaters HoTaters

            FYI, the map showing the "split" in the water traveling from Japan was posted in an Enenews article which stated the U.S. West Coast will begin to be hit by radioactive water from Fukushima early in 2014.

  • Cataclysmic Cataclysmic

    Loggerhead sea turtles are dying by the thousands along the Mexico coast,” said Sarah Uhlemann, senior attorney at the Center for Biological Diversity. “The United States can ban the import of fish and other wildlife products from nations that fail to protect imperiled species, and this is a clear case where such strong action is necessary.”

  • norbu norbu

    I pledge allegiance to the Earth and all of the people who live on her and to the animals I will protect, 1 planet living in peace without Nuclear power.

    My tears fall from my face because they are destroying this place we all call home…..

  • Pete

    Radiated water sinks, so it has been filling the pacific deep sea trench for years now, no telling how radioactive the water is at depth. If you look at deep sea trench maps, they are all connected, and the fact that starfish melting disease has hit the atlantic coast tells me this is just the beginning, deep sea creatures are coming up, small fish that should be able to handle the radiation are dying and the smarter animals, like that entire pod of dolphins in the sound, are leaving and/or dying.
    There's a great white shark that they have been radio tracking for 2 years that just swam up a fresh water river in South Carolina. It was 16.5 feet and 3500 pounds when they tagged it almost 2 years ago, so prolly bigger now but I imagine its chasing larger/deep sea creatures that are trying to get out of the ocean.
    Or maybe its just trying to get out of the ocean itself, I saw also that shark attacks are up all over the world this year and a sharkologist said it was because radiation messes with their nose sensors so they are just attacking anything. But what do I know… except things they are a changing, and Im in Seattle so you better believe Im watching, we're next after HI.

    • Songie Songie

      agreed, pete, things they are a changing, no doubt.

      i am in oregon so am also watching, worrying, trying to get info out there to family and friends….i am really trying to vett anything i share with other folksnot on this site lest they one day just lock me up..


    • Patrick-Henry Patrick-Henry

      It's not heavier…Where did you get that Pete?

      Heavy water and radiated water are two different things…Heavy water is made from oxygen bonded to one or more deuterium atoms. If both hydrogen atoms are deuterium then the formula for heavy water is D2O. Deuterium is an isotope of hydrogen which has one proton and one neutron. The most common isotope of hydrogen, protium, consists of a lone proton. Deuterium is a stable isotope, so it is not radioactive. Similarly, deuterated or heavy water is not radioactive.

      Tritium bonds directly with H2O molecules and it's not heavier either.

      Tritiated water contains tritium; as a low energy beta emitter, it is not dangerous externally (its beta particles are unable to penetrate the skin), but it is a radiation hazard when inhaled, ingested via food or water, or absorbed through the skin.

      Just pointing out that the radiation isn't just going to the bottom of the ocean okay?

      It's everywhere…

  • Nick

    When it dawned on me that it was the plumbing that failed at Fukushima before the huge wall of water hit the plant, I knew the cores would melt. I did not anticipate how total the information vacuum would become.

    It is that silence, the lack of hard data, the measly rad monitoring efforts, etc. that is so revealing.

    I suspect that a decision was made within hours of 3/11 to pretend all was hunky-dory and that any hint of radiation sickness had to be down played and stifled.

    It is up to each and everyone of us to come to our own conclusions. You will not ever get the truth, only snippets.

    The dying turtles are a sign.

    Read it. Sense the chill running up your spine. Hear the roar of anger in your ears; the pounding of your own cesium-137 tainted heart.

  • amberlight amberlight

    Trying to pin these devastations on any one cause is too simplistic, but I guess the learned scientists haven't figured that out yet—or could it be that their integrity is compromised?!

    A combination of toxins continuously being dumped into the ocean, aerial spraying, naval sonar tests, depletion of food sources from overfishing all lead to weakened species and then comes the coup de grâce in the form of massive radiation hits and it's "Sayonara, Ocean Life." Stay tuned for the sequel, "Adios, Life on Earth"…

  • ToBeExpected ToBeExpected

    The so called learned scientists got us all into this mess… now they are too embarrassed to admit, they were wrong…

  • nuckelchen nuckelchen

    by the way,
    a bitly strange it is

    what will the dog-owner snacking until beach-walking?
    little children?


    poor turtles,
    what are the wages for that survive from millions of years?

  • Lady M

    The article above notes "What puzzles scientists is the fact that red tides [with their associated neurotoxins] have come and gone before without taking such a deadly toll on turtles." Hmmm, once again we see the same thread that keeps running through the various animal deaths. Sea stars on the Atlantic coast were hit by a wasting disease a few years ago — but it didn't devastate a large part of the population like we are seeing now in the Pacific. Sea mammals have beached on the California coast in years gone by — but not in the big numbers we saw this year. Pacific salmon have turned yellow and had internal organ issues before, and a virus from the east coast that they likely acquire during migration has been suspected — but this year the Pacific salmon were hit much harder. The common thread may well be that all sea life's immune systems are being compromised… and we do know for certain that radiation can have that effect.

  • Songie Songie

    Spot on, Lady M! Immune systems compromised….

  • CodeShutdown CodeShutdown

    Just read that plankton can bio accumulate radionuclides over 10,000 times. Also, the microbes are in a balance, and the rads throw this off. A big dolphin die off occurred after Chernobyl, tied to bacteria also. Woods Hole wont be making a connection.

    Generally, bacterial spores are considered more radiation resistant than vegetative

    Anaerobic and toxigenic Clostridium spores
    are more radiation resistant than the
    aerobic non-pathogenic Bacillus spores;

    Radiation resistance of viruses is much higher
    than that of bacteria or even bacterial

  • Keen

    From someone concerned about the consequences of nuclear energy. I am in awe of the rubbish that flows so freely from the majority of posters here. So many make a knee jerk association to Fukushima with no real basis. The attempts to make some kind of scientific
    connection amount to wild speculation. It seems that all ENE needs to do is post about anything any where in the world for a chorus to form about how Fukushima is the cause. It seems inevitable to me that in the long run this chorus is going to be discredited which will affect the currency of legitimacy for those who oppose nuclear power. It's hard to get through to people with good reason to believe you are coming from a group that holds baseless positions. Fukushima will not kill the Pacific ocean and most of the affect on the oceanic biota (which is and will be occurring) will not even be observable to most people (as seems to be the over all case with the wildlife around Chernobyl) Eating contaminated food could however impact the lives of people you know if not you directly but it may not be possible to pinpoint the cause. Biological arguments are not often easily made. Fortunately the economics of nuclear power has become prohibitive.

    • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar anne

      There is already scientific knowledge that Fukushima is killing everything in the Pacific Ocean. Denying the biological effects of radiation whether from Chernobyl, Fukushima, or reactors that haven't melted down is totally unscientific.

      Have you seen the felled trees around Chernobyl that are not breaking down because there are no organisms alive there to do the job? Have you read the reports by Mousseau? The volume published by Yablonsky?

      • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar anne

        Even Low-Level Radioactivity Is Damaging, Scientists Conclude

        Health consequences of Chernobyl: the New York Academy of Sciences publishes an antidote to the nuclear establishment's pseudo-science.

        Chernobyl : Consequences of the Catastrophe for People and the Environment

      • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar anne

        Photo: Dead radioactive trees not decomposing

        Chernobyl, Fukushima, and Other Hot Places
        Timothy A Mousseau, Anders P. Moller

      • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar anne

        Fishermen report boats surrounded by hundreds of dead Eastern Pacific green sea turtles — Official says some found swimming in circles as if dazed or confused

      • Keen

        Anne, I will be glad to admit I am mistaken if you can come up with bodies of biologists who assert that Fukushima radionuclides are responsible for the maladies and mortality situations that have been occurring in the pacific outside of Japanese waters. Actually I would also be interested in what the effects on the biota are close to Fukushima because there certainly must be. This situation is unacceptably bad and how much worse it will get is hard to know but it is getting worse. I just do not think it is killing the Pacific. Nature abhors a vacuum.

        • 16Penny 16Penny

          Hi Keen, here is some background reading I recently found. It is very recent, very comprehensive and took me about a week to get through the first time. I am on my second reading so that I can more thoroughly digest the information and start to connect relevant pieces of information.

          • Keen

            Thanks 16 Penny for providing the report. I am afraid it is more than I will really get to look through. I started going over it. Based on what I have seen so far I do not think there is anything in the report that would support what is happening to the West coast sea stars or to the sea turtles. If you see any part of the report you think I should look at I will give it a go.

            I certainly do believe that low level radiation in the form of certain isotopes of ingested radionuclides are detrimental to the health of biological beings. I have just not yet seen any evidence that this type of mechanism is currently present in sufficient amounts along North Americas west coast to cause the mass die off of star fish. I do not discount it as impossible, but given the current body of knowledge I think it is highly unlikely. I think a connection needs to be demonstrated beyond potential weakened immune function.

            For starters, biological concentrations of Fukushima radionuclides in the west coast biota need to be established. Sea weeds, algae, mussels, oysters, barnacles etc. need to be tested at locations up an down the coast. This would provide a clear baseline on what is happening along the coast at fixed locations.

            I think this is what many of us need get it together and to pool our resources to do…

            How Citizen Scientists can Sample Radiation

      • Keen

        What I am alluding to here is that when congenital deformities occur in nature and when the offspring die at birth or some time after it is not something people generally see (especially now that people are so distanced from nature). For all the animals many of us see on a daily basis how often do we see it when they die? When animals are not successful at reproduction they generally try again or are replaced by more successful neighboring populations.

        • DUDe DisasterInterpretationDissorder

          In a natural cycle , they usually die when getting eating aka cleaned up, so unless you go laying on your belly with some binoculair watching prey (sick or not) and predator interact…or be the predator yourself..
          Humankind as a whole kills indirectly by pollution and irreversible destruction , and it is so effectif the species die faster "en mass" then they can be cleaned up by the environment..
          Like in this case..

          Good luck waiting for a more succesfull neighboring plancton species to pick up the oxigen production in an acid, radioactif environment, its been slacking lately…

          CO is also good food for plants so climate change can't be that bad afterall…(sarc)
          You can drown someone with vitamines enriched water and claim he will become more healthy because vitamins are good for you ?
          In reality aka Truth its about dosage and interconnected balance , not our wishfull hallucinating to extend our "progress" trip..

          Your theory is based on a healthy, flexible environment with rich and healthy biodiversity, but that is only a memory from the past..only a couple of centuries ago..

      • Keen

        Anne, I have looked at some of Mousseau's information. I do not process volumes of information quickly. I have also looked at most of the other links you put up here probably when they first came out.
        There is some controversy among Mousseau's colleagues and I have not looked at it enough to sort it out for my self but I expect I would tend to agree with Mousseau's findings. I do not see how Mousseaus work would support the premise that the problems happening outside of Japanese waters are due to Fukushima given the contamination levels at such distances.

      • Keen

        Anne In response to your November 13, 2013 at 5:08 am reply to a comment I made and to all the other 16 responses you have made to my initial two comments. I see your pattern of throwing up strings of links as a response rather than making more of an effort at actually having a discussion. It is as if you are assuming I (or others) know nothing so you just hand out an encyclopedia (your own version). In my second post I stated that I do not process information quickly and your response to that was to become even more encyclopedic, it seems while avioding actual discourse. It is as if you are not actually reading or interperating what I am saying. Among the volumes of information you put up there is much reading and interperating to be done and even among friends and collegues interperatations can vary widely so how is that a response? Perhaps we should replace all teachers with books and save the government a ton of money (for bombs). It would be better to have a discussion on a more specific level. Aside from that some of the information you put up contradicts other things you put up or even things that you say. On its own I find most of it fascinating and interesting and I even agree with a large portion of it.

        I am running out of word space.

        I can not say at this point that I stand corrected.

        • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

          Keen, anne has given you plenty to read/research and digest. I would stick to what she says as a pretty good bet and overall expert on finding documents that you and your friends need to make a conclusion on your own. You made a comment that Fukushima will not kill the Pacific Ocean. That would be an opinion on your part, just like the many of opinions that you will find here on these many pages. The Fukushima crises is not over yet and none of us are certain to the end game that will eventually play out. WE do have information in groves concerning the negative effects/affects of radiation contamination in all forms and you have seen these links and been privy to those links here.

          If you can produce any positives regarding the massive uncontrollable releases of radiation contamination in any form, I and others here would love to see such documented research.

          It was I that stated the Pacific Ocean is dying/will die and it is dying whether today or tomorrow. That is the beauty of progress and a manmade technology like Nuclear Radiation as it has no borders once it is released. You can research "Dead Zones" around the world if you wish as there is plenty of documented information. I believe we will create a massive dead zone in the Pacific Ocean if we do not change the technology direct right now and the only way we can prevent the death of the Pacific Ocean is to change right now! All Nuclear Power must be banned and all plants must be shut down worldwide! 🙂

          • Keen

            Ospeaks, Where do you get that I am looking to produce positives from Nuclear contamination!!? Perhaps you have missed the point of my questioning.

            If nuclear plants did not have the inevitable possibilities of melt downs and, radioactive releases and production of heinous weapons, and illegal dumping, they would make a wonderful replacement for the many kinds of fossil fuel contamination. But only if it actually replaced fossil fuels rather than supplementing them.

            The standard of knowledge needs to be raised world wide not the standard of living (unless you are dirt poor fodder for the wage slave trade). There actually needs to be standard of living caps.

            • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

              I am not interpreting anything my friend but you seem not to grasp the information being shared with you. You wanted some discourse and you are getting it. So ask away. 🙂 There is nothing safe about Nuclear Radiation Contamination in any form and it will never replace fossil fuels as any primary fuel source… 🙁

              • Keen

                I was sort of poking at the nuclear ecologist arguments. In their ideal clean nuclear world how do they think the clean coal and clean gas and clean consumerism people are going to give up their clean profits.

            • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar anne

              Nuclear power plants are exorbitantly expensive, are contributing to climate change, and in the entire fuel cycle contribute more CO2 to the atmosphere than fossil fuels.

              They are subject to meltdowns from earthquakes, rising oceans, terrorist attacks, Carrington events, and destroy all the natural resources necessary for life. Mining for uranium destroys ground water and uses horrible chemicals.

        • Jebus Jebus

          I think that she gave you all the information you need to make an informed summation of the facts.
          You are now asking for a spoon and blaming her for not providing that.
          Everything she posted is clear and concise as to the potential effects of low level radiation on humans, animals, plants, and the environment.
          No one can make you assimilate the facts.
          Good teachers do not teach, they provide an environment for you to learn…

          • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

            .. 🙂

          • Keen

            There are contradictions among the things she provided and among what she has said. Everything she posted is clear concise and subject to interpretation. I have been interpreting as much as I can over the past couple of years as this stuff is among my major focuses. To top it off I see many people running around with answers when it is really questions they should have. At this point all life on earth was more irradiated by atmospheric nuclear detonations in the 40s, 50s, and 60s, I believe, than all sources combined since. If I am not wrong, I believe Christopher Busby would support this point. I agree with Busby and enthusiastically support his work but that does not mean there is not room for question and reevaluation on some things. There is nuclear dumping that has been done in the oceans that I have not seen quantified. Has it mobilized? Is that where the dead zones are?

            I have wondered if there is not more to Rachel Carson's Silent Spring than she realized. I have also wondered if my birth defects were not as a result of being down wind of the Nevada test site, and what that could mean.

            If I am trying to get something across to someone I am not going to rely on strings of links though I may provide some.

            • Jebus Jebus

              Every single point you have brought up has been discussed here on ENENEWS in the past 983 days. All of your questions are being debated all over the world. If the answers were so attainable, we would not be in this ever increasing disaster scenario and this plus many other communication formats would be moot. The only thing you can do is to form your own opinion by absorbing as much information as possible. No one can tell you that you are wrong or right. The indicators that this is an increasingly severe global disaster is the deafening silence of those with the definate data and the visible evidence. Even the "experts" have exhibited a alarmingly candid lack of answers. The information that I have processed has led me to believe that we are in for a shock as to the severity of the result of this major screw up. Time will tell…

            • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar anne

              The earth wasn't irradiated more during atmospheric testing. In the case of plutonium, all the plutonium released during atmospheric testing was only 5 lbs. I have provided this information to you before in classes I took, and on just recently.

              We talking about tons of plutonium released at Fukushima Daiichi as compared to 5 lbs from atmospheric testing.

              However, tonight I am working on an assignment for my class on Analyis of Complex Functions. And I don't have time tonight to look up the citation. However, I will look it up.

              • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar anne

                “…Betwecn 1945 and 1976, about 26,000 curies (5 pounds of human-made 238Pu) were released into the atmosphere: 9820 curies from the atmospheric testing of plutonium bombs, and 17,000 curies from the satellite that burned up as it reentered the atmosphere in 1964. Of the total, based on samplings throughout the world, only 0.00055 pounds has been inhaled or ingested by all human beings….
                “Of more importance in how plutonium moves through the environment is that, once it falls on land, it can be resuspended into the air whenever the ground is disturbed by wind or human activities such as tilling or construction. This means it is available to be inhaled by humans, which is the most harmful path. Most of the studies on resuspension were conducted in arid environments, leading to question wbether resuspension of small particles would be less in more humid or wet areas. There is no solid evidence to support this idea, since measurements taken
                throughout the United States actually showed that the lowest concentration of particles per cubic meter of air were in White Pine County, Nevada — a very arid area — and that the highest were in the more humid Midwest, where soil erosion and tilling produce major resuspension. Other experiments in South Carolina, Enewetak, and Bikini also show that resuspension of soil was essentially the same as in arid environments….”

                • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                  Someone was looking for this information recently… 🙂

                  Weight VS Radiation Released past and present comparisons.

                  Hopefully they can use it for their research/extrapolation formulas 🙂

              • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar anne

                Gundersen: A ton of plutonium was in each Fukushima reactor — Host shocked (VIDEO)

            • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

              Keen, You are on the right track and I am sorry for your birth defects and/but if you were downwind from the Nuclear testing grounds it is very possible that they were the root cause of such defects. As Jebus has shared, most of what you seek is in the volumes of links in all the posted information here at enenews over the past 2.5 years. Your answers are here if you choose to dig a little deeper. Anne has been instrumental in suppling you this information. There will always be conflicting information in all reported documents. I have made a statement that not one medical research document looking for cause etc. can be accurate without taking into account the invisible damage done by radiation contamination releases around the globe. I stand by my statement.

              You mentioned radiation release in the 50's from the tests and no some of it is still here and yes it bioaccumulates in the biosphere and no that statement that there is less may be a misnomer, since the decay rates vary. The more we add to the toxic mix the higher the background radiation readings become. We are seeing this right now and in the past they hoped the decay rates would bring down the harm. Once again a misnomer and not an accurate assumption on any scientists part. The bad boys are still here and will be here forever or at least way past our lifetimes.

              Radiation is a class 1 mutagenic and therefor will mutate all it comes into contact with thus the birth defects seen in all wildlife/humans exposed.

              • Keen

                OBWS and Anne, Thanks for the sentiments. Actualy I am lucky and happy now to be relatively healthy. My obvious defects were correctable with some dental and orthopedic work and were part of my early life. It probably cost my folks a bit. Anything else I don't know but I am doing pretty darn well. The wondering if it is something that will continue to express in various ways is something that I am sure that many of the people of Chenobyl of Fukushima and some of the rest of us are wondering or finding out.

                I am still working on gaining a clearer understanding.

                I still think a some base lines for the pacific coast are neccessary to a better more "credible" understanding.

                How Citizen Scientists can Sample Radiation

                I wonder if this is sufficient information for citizen scientists to be able to detect plutonium.

                I know there are many problems to be solved aside from and along with the nuclear problems.

                I still hold rays of optimism, for what it is worth!?… and the early rants here seemed baseless at the time.

            • Dr. Anne Lee Tomlinson Maziar anne

              I apologize for not reading all of your post. Bobby1 also has problems because he was in the womb when testing was done in the Pacific (I forgotten which one). Of course genetic problems and cancer and other diseases can be a result of other environmental pollution. Environmental pollution acts synergistically so that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Radiation lowers the immune response and together with pesticides, dioxins, and other electromagetic pollution is a toxic brew that will overtake the ability of bees to live, and certainly people. The whole biosphere is being polluted at a rate that it may be impossible for life to continue on earth.

              Many people who were downwind from testing in Nevada have suffered from birth defects and have died from cancer.

              I am sorry and saddened by what you have suffered.

            • Horse Horse

              "This is evidence that tritium levels in the upper atmosphere exceed those caused by the atmospheric bomb tests of the 1950's and 1960's."


              • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

                Horse that should help Keen figure a few things out and send him in the right direction for the.. seek and you shall find mode. 🙂

                • Keen

                  Well I suppose this just about blows convincing skeptics out of the water. It is making me sway back to the need for west coast marine base lines and my Geiger counter that syncs with radnet background values. But I will try to get through it.

    • bo bo

      Keen, I'm no biologist and have no impressive educational background, but the 'pattern' I go by is how scientists have refused to even mention, or do research on radiation, and how the mainstream media refuses to even mention this as a possibility, when reporting on the mass die offs.

      That has been a consistent pattern, and so I build my hypothesis from there.

      • bo bo

        Also : anne has references, do you ?

        • bo bo

          Baaah, you're probably just that knew brand of shill they're starting to pump out, who always initiate the discussion by 'breaking the ice': ' I am in no way in support of nuclear power…. ' then lead up to : ' however there is no need for doom and gloom, keep listening to the beach boys, keep on surfin' California! Just don't eat the fish, that's all, just for now – as a precaution'

    • 16Penny 16Penny

      "The attempts to make some kind of scientific connection amount to wild speculation. It seems that all ENE needs to do is post about anything any where in the world for a chorus to form about how Fukushima is the cause. It seems inevitable to me that in the long run this chorus is going to be discredited which will affect the currency of legitimacy for those who oppose nuclear power. "

      Could you provide some specific examples so we can have a conversation about it? It seems that you only want to throw around broad and generalized criticisms but do not want to get into a conversation regarding the specifics.

  • CodeShutdown CodeShutdown

    Keen, I suppose you make a qualified statement here?
    " Fukushima will not kill the Pacific ocean and most of the affect on the oceanic biota (which is and will be occurring) will not even be observable…"
    Since the ecology of the ocean is so complex, its difficult to predict what damage Fukushima fallout will do. But we know one thing; a vast amount of pollution was released, three trillion fatal doses (human size animal) by one account. How do you really know if this wont be a tipping point for some species? Or a cascade effect for many?

    • Keen

      What I am alluding to here is that when conjenital deformities occur in nature and when the offspring die at birth or some time after it is not something people generally see (especially now that people are so distanced from nature). For all the animals many of us see on a daily basis how often do we see it when they die? When animals are not successful at reproduction they generally try again or are replaced by more successful neighboring populations.

      • Keen

        CodeShutdown I can not know that this wont be a tipping point for some species (but I do not expect that it is). With all the multiple nuclear and other sources of contamination and degridation it may be. The oceans have shown signs of dying and dramatic change for a long time now. One report I have read convincingly argues that Jellyfish are quickly becoming the dominant creature in the ocean and this no doubt is affecting many things. What is the cause or causes? If we stopped eating from the factory fisheries would that have an effect?

        • Jebus Jebus

          Ah, so is that the ultimate fear, that the fishing industry will be affected?

          Just because humans have been polluting the oceans for longer than you have been alive does not make the Fukushima disaster any less severe. If one were to pay attention to the big picture, one would see clearly the detrimental effects of this disaster, on top of the prior oceanic damage. 892 days of radionuclide laced water can not be good for the One ocean. Add the initial releases of three reactor meltdowns and likely open air fuel rod burns and you have a hinge point that is not at the center of the scale. The evidence gets clearer when you see the multitude of reports of sea life being compromised. No one is saying all these events are directly tied to Fukushima, but the compass points north and it can not be denied that Fukushima's effects will be playing out for centuries.
          As for the effect of not eating from the pacific? Yes that might save a few children from being the victims of a horrible cancerous disease. Do you think that would be worth a few lost revenue dollars or jobs?

      • CodeShutdown CodeShutdown

        Keen, you said you were in awe of the rubbish that flows so freely from the majority of posters here. Then you make your own unqualified guess as to what Fukushima will do, insinuating that people wont even be able to notice it. There are levels of radioactivity hundreds of kilometers out into the ocean that will cause heart problems in mammals. Dolphin bioaccumulate around 300x, but what about whales that feed on plankton which may bio-accumulate over 10,000x ? I agree, it appears that bomb testing was nearly twice the fallout, yet Fukushima is added, and continuing. For sure, there is no SINGLE cause, but so what? Species are going extinct at a rapid pace. Animals are being killed. This is what we mean when we say its killing the ocean. The nuke plants are part of a larger corporate/fascist/monopoly money problem, the powerful apparently disconnected from natural realities. You cant separate Fukushima from politics. So I still find your awe at the posters rubish and your own guesses baseless.

  • Lady M

    Keen: The human mind is hard-wired to look for patterns. Science-minded folks in particular seek patterns to order their experiences. Pattern-seeking leads to hypotheses, which can then — formally or informally — be tested. You're right, not everything that's a candidate for being part of a certain pattern will turn out to actually fit it. And of course not every hypothesis will stand up to testing. But recognizing potential pieces of a puzzle, and trying them to see if they do fit, advances science and is also a thrill. IMHO we on this site enjoy patterning and puzzling together.

    • Keen

      I want evidence not patterns. Unexplainable things have been happening in the oceans for as long as I can remember. Perhaps the patterns will lead to the evidence but really the evidence should be obtainable for as many environmental scientists as there are who are so because they care about the environment. No marine biologists I know are sounding this alarm. I have heard that Jelly fish are taking over the ocean. Not a pleasant prospect for those of us who like things the way they are (or were)

  • paschn

    Have you ever finally faced down the school bully? The workplace loudmouth? The beer swilling pot-bellied/foul mouthed neighbor? Remember the feeling you had? The anticipation/adrenalin rush thinking this is it? In spite of your apprehension, you couldn't wait to throw that first punch, then the next etc.

    "…..and He shall bring to ruin, those ruining the Earth"

    Terrified and excited at the same time.

  • Sol Man

    These various creatures and their experience of mass death certainly says that their world has been made unlivable, and, because of our interconnectedness, humans share in the responsibility for bring their experience about; in my opinion.

    Who else would be so evil to spread toxic chemicals: the radionuclides, vocs', nicotinoids, herbicides, all over our shared world, in our water, on our food stocks, in the atmosphere?

    Likely, the tipping point is shared, too.

  • deedles deedles

    You know, I saw Anne said she doesn't believe Satan is running the world and understand that's her POV (no offense Anne, not picking, just saying what I see).

    I have to say that the more I see and learn about every. single. facet. of. life. now being deadly to all of what I consider God's creation, which includes us: it looks, feels and smells like purulent, hateful evil is driving some stupid, greedy people to destroy it all.

    Can money REALLY be behind this? Everywhere you turn something is destroying the fertility, the intelligence, the health, the spirit and yes, the soul of humans. I cannot fathom how this can be simple greed? It's too horrid and all-encompassing to be simple greed.

    It's like a giant human sacrifice to moloch or something.

  • pinksailmatt pinksailmatt

    Comparing Chernob to Fukish is coming from a place of not realizing the big differences between the two. My counsler tries to pull that one on me all the time…oh look at the wolfs coming back near Chernob. But yes…many of them have deformed/mutated paws, and yes, there are no hunters there…there are no people who have any animals there that would require them to kill the wolves.
    The BIG difference is Fuk & Chernob is 3 reactors and not one, all the highly dangerous spent fuel pools…and this has continued without anyone trying/able to stop the spewing of it's crap for hundreds of days, which will turn into thousands of days in short time, and then thousands of years.

  • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

    Man is that an ugly reality.. 🙁

    Frack must be like crack and get all this scientific bullshit out of our oceans! Please!

  • Wyakin Wyakin

    I would urge more caution in the causality we affirm. Without the principals of logic, science would be nothing more than a collection of isolated observations.

    As others, I do not agree with the statement "Fukushima will not kill the Pacific ocean and most of the affect on the oceanic biota (which is and will be occurring) will not even be observable to most people (as seems to be the over all case with the wildlife around Chernobyl)." The effects of Chernobyl on Belarus and across Europe/Eurasia are already scientifically proven to be species ending.

    The mutagenic effects of radiation on phytoplankton and other microscopic life forms in the ocean and the long term consequences on the entire ocean and dependent land based ecosystem/s cannot be understated.

    What has been understated and understudied is the impact of unknown thousands of tons of toxic pesticides(neurotoxins), herbicides, petroleum, agricultural byproducts and other unknown carcinogens, and their compound effects, carried by the returning tsunami wave. The comprehensive environmental effects of tsunami impact on a modern industrialised country has not been well researched.

    These toxins are being transported along with, or in front of, the cascade of radioactive FU waste flowing into the Pacific. The correct diagnosis of causality, in spite of ongoing media and scientific blackouts, is important to maintain credibility.


  • obewanspeaks obewanspeaks

    But isn't it all just so convenient and is that not what this manmade progress is suppose to do for all us humans while lining the pockets of the few?

    We humans in general care not for the world we were all graced with…a paradise we have.. no more! 🙁