Senior Scientist: Fukushima cores melted through the containment vessels — I’m very concerned about sea life on West Coast accumulating radioactive material; Some contamination will arrive in concentrated pockets (AUDIO)

Published: January 3rd, 2014 at 9:39 am ET


The Smart Show, Dec. 23, 2013:

At 38:00 in

Steven Starr, Director of the Clinical Laboratory Science Program at the University of Missouri and a senior scientist at Physicians for Social Responsibility: I still marvel at the fact that they announced that everything was under control, that there was a cold shutdown at Fukushima about a year after the accident. After that, the corporate news essentially stopped — but in fact, they’ve got the cores melted through the containment vessels, and 300 to 600 tons of radioactive groundwater going into the Pacific every day.

At 47:30 in

Starr: I’m very concerned that this stuff is going to accumulate and concentrate in marine life. Since we really don’t have any kind of good screening process going on for the stuff, there’s a group Beyond Nuclear actually got  a petition to try and change the existing standards to lower them greatly from the 1,200 Bq/kg that the US allows in for its foodstuffs. I read a very good study that was done at a big center in Australia and Spain. They predict that every cubic meter of water off the West Coast is going to have something like 10 to 20 atomic disintegrations per second from cesium in it over the next several years. That doesn’t sound like a lot I guess, but what we’ve also seen is that the stuff comes across the Pacific, some of it’s concentrated. It’s in pockets of it, the fish swim through that and they feed in it. It’s kind of a random process. […] It’s kind of a crap-shoot really.

Interview available here

Published: January 3rd, 2014 at 9:39 am ET


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113 comments to Senior Scientist: Fukushima cores melted through the containment vessels — I’m very concerned about sea life on West Coast accumulating radioactive material; Some contamination will arrive in concentrated pockets (AUDIO)

  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    "and 300 to 600 tons of radioactive groundwater going into the Pacific every day."

    Measured and reported by TEPCO.
    But if the corium(s) are in the ground.. and I believe they are..
    there is a lot more water becoming contaminated than this.

    The hot spots..ya..a crap shoot..some level of radiation in the currents off-shore.. (becoming) constant and rising.

    • Gasser Gasser

      Top Ten Nuclear meltdown mental getaways

      10. Go for it! you may not wake up.
      9. Fun procrastination is deadly.
      8. Fear will bullshit you into no.
      7. The speed of choice is life.
      6. Go faster than the crash.
      5. Kick ass on everything.
      4. Go fast take chances.
      3. Give death the finger.
      2. Say never to never.
      1. Avoid all doctors.

      ~Gasser Classic~

    • Usefulbreather

      After all of the lies that have been told by TEPCO, I imagine the 300 to 600 ton figure is but a fraction of the real figure. They lie as part of their culture to save face. Smile and it will all go away.

    • Angela_R

      "If corium(s) are in the ground…and I believe they are…"
      I would think so as well, as I suspect the elements that compose the mass are very heavy, so they would be unlikely to be carried via flow of water into the ocean.

      • harengus_acidophilus


        "I suspect the elements that compose the mass are very heavy,
        so they would be unlikely to be carried via flow of water
        into the ocean."

        Corium has the abitity of "self sputtering"
        into nanoparticles. They flow in water.


        • Angela_R

          sorry, I can see that in the original explosion, when the core melted, but now?

          Didn't the corium in Unit 3 go through the floor?

          • Whether and how far is the question, and it's not likely to be answered definitively any time soon. There is evidence that at least part of the corium masses from two of the reactors (1 & 2) escaped through the downcomers into the torus suppression pools. Which are about half full of water unless they've been drained. If the corium isn't cooled sufficiently by the water, it'll melt through the structure and onto the first level basement floor. Which in pictures from the Ty-D-Bowl robot a couple of months ago from unit-1, is also flooded.

            One of the Chernobyl corium flows went into water in one of the basements, causing an explosion. The corium shattered into rock-sized pieces with the consistency of pumice. The more solid molten flows went through piping (path of least resistance). The 'elephant foot' formation was still hot enough to penetrate about 15 feet into the granite bedrock before cooling enough to not be actively melting rock.

            The basements at Fuku have a 'river' running through them. The corium needn't be under the lowest level to be contaminating the hell out of that water. Fuku also has pipes in those basements that could take corium god only knows where.

      • gottagetoffthegrid

        Um, the element all form water soluble salts. Add water and they go into solution

  • TheBigPicture TheBigPicture


    shows whats really happening.

    Man must stop using nuclear and respect nature.

    • weeman

      Man is to smart for his own good, stop the madness join the human race and let us and everything else live.
      All the best in new year TBP, the course you have set is true.

    • Gradius

      Too late, and Lady Death just smile at it.

  • Ontological Ontological

    Temps hot enough to melt right through the vessel materials means much of it vaporized. What made it into the ground is screaming hot(scintillations), has fuel fleas jumping off by the gazillions right into any water that flushes past it. Great idea to build this beast on top of an ancient river delta. Loose aggregate, & silt is so stable. NOT!
    These "findings" of "only" 20 scintillation/sec equate to 1200 cpm beta total per minute dose from the entire mass (cubic meter) of seawater! This will add up quickly in the food chain, already has.
    Again these results do not include disintegrations from 1400 or so other daughter isotopes in the fallout. So if the cesium is average as to the contents, then lets say PU/U/Strontium, and Cesium would raise those scintillations to 4800 disintegrations per minute from the total cubic meter, or 4800/1000(liters in the cubic meter of seawater; or 4.8 bq/liter on just those 4 ELEments. When this "tiny" amount is bio-accumulated for long, (3 years+ soon)things get ugly fast. Cloaked in a smoke and mirror show, the ELEphant in the room seems to be way smaller than it really is by eliminating the rest of the pixels in the picture.
    Figure out how much water a clam can filter when a clam can filter water, and the rads add up fast the further along the food chain it goes. And the further away from the beach the sea foam flies.

  • 富岡_Blue_Heron 富岡_Blue_Heron

    Is there any analysis that identifies the isotopes found in Pacific seawater as FNPP contamination rather than, say, contamination from the stuff that was dumped off SF (Pacific) or NJ (Atlantic)?

    • socref

      Once isotopes are detected it is very difficult to determine the source unless its right on top of it. One can use "inverse modelling" to infer a source backwards from a detector response. Yet its only useful if sources can be isolated. We also have to remember there is natural Cs137 and Sr90 from spontaneous fission of uranium in seawater.

      • gottagetoffthegrid

        Utter nonsense, shill. There is no cs137 or sr90 that is naturally occurring, as you know.

          • socref

            No misdirection. Just trying to educate you on some basic physics.


            Under the list of nuclides, "SF" = spontaneous fission.

            Spontaneous fission of U238 results in about 100 n/sec-gm.

            Thus if you look at the amount of U238 in seawater, you can come up with the number of fissions occuring. When you come up with the number of fissions, you multiply by the fission product fraction to estimate the production of a certain fission product rate.

            Lets do a simple example.

            How much U238 is there in seawater?


            4.5 billion tons of uranium in seawater

            So do the exercise to calculate the number of fissions/sec assuming 2.5 neutrons/fission.

            Now do the exercise to calculate the production rate of Cs137 or Sr90 in seawater.

            • razzz razzz

              Notice only man-made radioisotope are prone to spontaneous fission, of course anybody that received an 'A' in Physics would know that.
              "…Because of the constraints in forming the daughter fission-product nuclei, spontaneous fission into known nuclides becomes theoretically possible (that is, energetically possible) for some atomic nuclei with atomic masses greater than 92 amu, with the probability of spontaneous fission increasing as the atomic mass number increases above this value.

              The lightest natural nuclides that are hypothetically subject to spontaneous fission are niobium-93 and molybdenum-94 (elements #41 and #42, respectively). Spontaneous fission has never been observed in the naturally occurring isotopes of these elements, however. In practice, these are stable isotopes.

              Spontaneous fission is feasible over practical observation times only for atomic masses of 232 amu or more. These are elements at least as heavy as thorium-232 – which has a half-life somewhat longer than the age of the universe. Thorium-232 is the lightest primordial nuclide that has left evidence of undergoing spontaneous fission in its minerals…"

              • socref

                U238 is natural and prone to spontaneous fission. End of story.

              • socref

                Here is another one for you:

                Plutonium albeit small, occurs in nature. Why?

                Because U238 occurs in nature and the neutrons produced from spontaneous fission (2.5 neutrons/fission), some get captured back into the uranium nucleus and will be the wrong energy to cause fission. When this happens, the neutron is captured in U238 and the atomic number increases to 93 (Neptunium) then beta decays to Plutonium (atomic number 94)

                So while the bulk of plutonium is made in reactors, there are trace amounts found in the Earth's crust as well.


                That is the physics.

                • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

                  Occur in nature..yeppa.

                  "Some of the surfaces of the lava flows have started to show new uranium minerals such as UO3·2H2O (eliantinite), (UO2)O2·4H2O (studtite), uranyl carbonate (rutherfordine), and two unnamed compounds Na
                  3 and Na3U(CO3)2·2H2O.[30] These are soluble in water, allowing mobilization and transport of uranium.[44] They look like whitish yellow patches on the surface of the solidified corium.[45] These secondary minerals show several hundred times lower concentration of plutonium and several times higher concentration of uranium than the lava itself.[30]


                  Why would Plutonium decrease and uranium increase?

                  • socref

                    It has to do with the capture of neutrons in uranium and the relative decay rates of plutonium and uranium. One can model the rates of production of uranium and plutonium over time with "ordinary differential equations" ODEs and the rate constants for specific isotopes. This particular application is called "radiation kinetics". There are computer codes one can use to determine the total amounts over time. One of them is called ORIGEN.

                • razzz razzz

                  socref: Spontaneous fission is a theory in seawater, learn how to read and comprehend or are you just book smart and logically can't think things through for yourself? Then explain to us the background radiation levels before man began splitting the atom compared to today's background radiation levels and how it correlates to rising cancer rates during this (short) life of the nuclear industry.

                  Breeder reactors will create more plutonium than what is started with. Not all of it will be fissionable much to the chagrin of the nuclear industry.

                  • harengus_acidophilus

                    It's not so easy.

                    "Spontaneous fission is a theory in seawater,…"

                    Spontaneous fission is a proven fact,
                    it's a property of Uranium itself.

                    Conclusio: there is a (very very tiny) amount of natural
                    occuring fission products, we have to take this in account,
                    if we calibrate measurement equipment.

                    "If a value is more than zero,
                    you have to calculate with."

                    Precision should be allowed.


                    • If the theorized presence of spontaneous fission events producing either plutonium-239 or iodine-131 in, say, a cubic meter of seawater is below the margin of error in the detection equipment, it doesn't count FAPP for the fission product background of the sample. If you're getting a detectable amount of activity, it's most likely from a technological source.

                    • haizedustrium-1234 haizedustrium-1234


                      page to page 413 for Lithium

                      Widely skipped – too difficult – too small – too fast – too light

                      for illustration purposes

            • jump-ball jump-ball

              "…to infer a source backwards from a detector response…(is)…only useful if sources can be isolated." ?

              Do I see an 'inarticulate major premise' here, attempting to hide in plain sight, namely that after nearly 3 years we do not yet have an isolated source?

              • socref

                No sir. The problem is that there are many disparate sources the further away one gets from the major source. If someone at point A is dumping barrels of fission products and someone at point B is dumping tankloads of fission products, its very difficult to ascertain the location of the sources if the sources were equal.

            • Is There 'Natural' Plutonium And Are There 'Natural' Fission Reactions? via @AGreenRoad

          • zogerke zogerke

            Here is the reference <<Technique #2 – ‘CONSENSUS CRACKING’

            A second highly effective technique (which you can see in operation all the time at is ‘consensus cracking.’ To develop a consensus crack, the following technique is used. Under the guise of a fake account a posting is made which looks legitimate and is towards the truth is made – but the critical point is that it has a VERY WEAK PREMISE without substantive proof to back the posting. Once this is done then under alternative fake accounts a very strong position in your favour is slowly introduced over the life of the posting. It is IMPERATIVE that both sides are initially presented, so the uninformed reader cannot determine which side is the truth. As postings and replies are made the stronger ‘evidence’ or disinformation in your favour is slowly ‘seeded in.’ Thus the uninformed reader will most like develop the same position as you, and if their position is against you their opposition to your posting will be most likely dropped. However in some cases where the forum members are highly educated and can counter your disinformation with real facts and linked postings, you can then ‘abort’ the consensus cracking by initiating a ‘forum slide.’>>>

        • socref

          I only need to consult the Table of Isotopes and look at the little black box on the U238 entry to know there is spontaneous fission ocurring. Once you convince yourself there is spontaneous fission, you can rationalize that the fission products from spontaneous fission are a "double humped curve". The double humped curve follows the distribution of fission products which Cs137 and Sr90 are there.

          So here is the logic:

          1. spontaneous fission occurs in nature

          2. Fission products occur when fission occurs

          3. Cs137 and Sr90 are fission products

          The double humped curve is shown on the Wikipedia site

          Thus Cs137 and Sr90 albeit a very small quantity, will occur in nature when U238 spontaneously fissions in nature.

          I am not a shill. I am a physicist.

          • haizedustrium-1234 haizedustrium-1234

            Would you agree that this much of uranium found in the sea is not natural but resulted from human activities, and therefore the large deposits of fission chain products are manmade in type and quantities?

            • socref

              No its natural since uranium is found in the earths crust and it diffuses into the ocean from the ocean floor.

              • harengus_acidophilus

                Another fact

                In the last century, the germans tried
                to extract Uranium from seawater.

                From wikipedia:
                "It occurs naturally in low concentrations
                of a few parts per million in soil, rock and water, …"


          • zogerke zogerke

            There are coria that have sunk and reached the groundwater.
            The geographical location of the plant is that it is in the path of water drainage from the mountains to the sea; in fact the plant is built on an old river bed. So- the sea is getting contaminated by the radioactive releases from the coria. You don't need to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows. You dont need to be a physicist to know that the pacific is horribly contaminated due to uncontrolled nuclear melt down and releases from the ongoing industrial catastophe at fukashima daiichi. . I get the impression that your factual offerings are at best devils advocacy, and at worst, obfuscation and denial. You are not the only scientist on this network of souls commenting here.

            • socref

              You are right, I am not the only scientist commenting here. But I do know the physics and the physics is immutable.

              I dont think the Pacific is "horribly contaminated" to the point that all commercial shipping, commercial fishing and any other activities such as tourism has come to a standstill and they are roping off the beaches in yellow and magenta tape (how to cordon off a radiation area).

              I do agree that we should not play devils advocate but really understand the physics since that is the science people are commenting about.

              Actually its not just the science, but the application of the science, or the "engineering" that has been called to question.

              Everything man has made breaks. Every living thing God makes dies.

              So where does that leave us? Im reminded of a famous quote in Shawshank Redemption

              "Get busy living or get busy dying"

              We have to decide which activity to take.

              Frankly, Im taking the former route. Life is precious and should be lived.

              • weeman

                Great posts, best debate yet, to all please no insults, win with logic.

                • haizedustrium-1234 haizedustrium-1234

                  Mined, enriched, then dumped or released accidently (intently) after 7-35% usage. The life of uranium is ten times its half-life and does not produce so much Cs and Sr in such a short period unless very condensed and super-heated. We are talking about products resulting from a criticality. Differentiating between natural occurring uranium and others takes us to its natural origin in the first place – land shift to sea. Have you checked uranium mines at sea? Check those in Canada or Australia for instance – Dry land.

                  • socref

                    I think recovery of uranium from seawater has been looked at by the Russians the most. Its really not the half life that defines toxicity but the "Activity". That is why Cs and Sr are more of an issue than Pu or U. We can shield against Cs and Sr with lead if the sources are known.

                • socref

                  Insults never get anyone anywhere. I love the weeman on Jack*a** btw. Cool cat.

                  • haizedustrium-1234 haizedustrium-1234

                    Very interesting, I saw workers next to the pool who were not shielded, yet they know the source. Between manmade uranium and manmade (Cs + Sr) which one would you say is becoming more abundant? Remember U decreases as Cs and Sr forms on a single line OREGEN graph. Can you see how MOX complicates calculations and how the origin complicates calculations? View natural-state-uranium as potential energy and uranium-in-criticality as kinetic energy. See the acceleration and feed off.

              • 富岡_Blue_Heron 富岡_Blue_Heron

                And thank you for your thoughts on my original question. If I understand your reply, it would be difficult to infer a source from data returned from a detector at a distance unless a signature taken at the source is known. If we want to know if the barrels disintegrated and we're getting poisoned, we need a sample of sediment from the dump for a reference and then the task would be to detect that signature at a distance…

                I still have a hard time believing in "natural sponataneous fission." Radioactive decay, yes but fission? Come on…

                • razzz razzz

                  You will have to accept the fact that spontaneous fission occurs in nature, whatever the pathways are but that is on land with large occurring natural deposits of uranium that would still have a hard time sustaining a continuous chain reaction. The resulting daughter products would be miniscule in the grand scheme of things.

                  Not to confuse spontaneous fission in seawater which is a theory and not yet observed. However after man began splitting atoms, the man-made radioactive wastes are more prevalent in the oceans and create a higher likelihood of all kinds of events happening that before nuke bombs and nuke power plants were built the oceans were of no concern when it came to radioactive pollution.

                  One drop of seawater contains every mineral known to man in trace amounts. You could filter seawater for gold or uranium but it is cheaper to buy these elements say, from Canada or Australia.

                  • haizedustrium-1234 haizedustrium-1234

                    For many practical purposes U238 behaves much more to plutonium’s character, and less to that of other uranium, the sources we check has many hurdles in place and the reader has to know that name calling doesn’t change physics at all. Manmade “unnoticed” continuous deposits in the sea via aerosolised or direct administering will obviously cause more and more natural fission. The sea is becoming a highway of fission onset. If you could read somewhere what depleted Pu could do to you then that is what U238 is after it doesn’t produce sufficient heat to be used commercially, or it can’t produce criticalities, so it is “stored”. Good one RAZZ. That is where the fish get their colors from. Diamonds are mined at sea and it is very, very profitable. As natural occurring as can be, and no bulk unwanted “unnoticed” diamonds are being dumped at sea.

              • Meh.

                "Anyone who claims to understand quantum theory is either lying or crazy."
                Richard Feynman

            • zogerke zogerke


              more about recent death of sealife outside of western northamerican continent; post fukushima

        • socref

          Cs137 and Sr90 are fission products. The distribution of fission products follows the double hump curve. There is fission from uranium that occurs spontaneously in nature. Thus there are fission products that occur naturally from spontaneous fission.

          Are you sure U238 does not spontaneously fission?

          Check your source again.


          PS I dont want to debate you over physics. My real goal is education not diversion. The more people are educated on this site the better they can understand the news stories that appear here.

      • Gradius

        @socref: So fucking natural that everything is DYING right now. But worry NOT… Lady Death will "toc toc" your door very soon.

    • There was essentially NO man made radiation in the oceans before the atomic age, so anything there, minus a few trillionths of uranium, is all there because the nuclear industry put it there.

  • harengus_acidophilus

    Inverse patterns …

    "It’s kind of a crap-shoot really."

    It’s kind of a crap-shoot reality.


    • Socrates

      Sushi from somewhere could be hundreds of times higher. You take your chances. Maybe that clam or oyster is hot. Those Japanese mushrooms could be as deadly as nightshades. You just don't know.

      • socref

        I am curious to know why some vegetation is spared and some gets contaminated to high heavens when the contamination levels are equivalent all things equal.

        • gottagetoffthegrid

          Do some research troll. Start with google. Educate yourself.

        • bo bo

          Rain lodges onto leafy vegetables, so the larger the leaves, and the longer rain stays on leaves, the higher the radation.
          Also I recall cesium mimics potassium, strontium calcium, so for example pistachios which are high in potassium sucks up cesium like a sponge, and are deadly at the moment. Root veggies are lower in radiation generally since dirt filters out some of the radiation fallout fron rain. Sorry half cooked rushed response.. I'm sure many on enenews have more detailed explanation for you.

          • bo bo

            Radiation fallout on vegetation works a lot similar to how information about radiation gets distributed – information is out there for all so you would think it would get absorbed equally among all population, but does not work that way …there is a huge disparity in its absorption among people.

          • bo bo

            Typo: cesium mimics potassium, and strontium mimics calcium

          • bo bo

            Oh. Sorry everybody
            I jumped into this thread unaware of the responses made already

  • Socrates

    We know from Chernobyl that truffles, a mushroom, were eaten by wild boars, a formerly favorite food of hunters in Germany. Testing was done by the government of Germany and Cs-137 had accumulated in the boat's flesh. Wild boar meet is therefore banned from public consumption.

    Steve Starr is saying that seafood of various types tends to bioaccumulate Cs-137.

    The Chernobyl studies indicate that Cs-137 concentrates in the kidneys, heart muscle, pancreas, thyroid, intestine, as well as in muscle because it mimics Potassium in metabolism. The EPA does not agree. The models it uses assume that an adult man will ingest the Cs-137 and that it will be uniformly distributed throughout his entire body rather than concentrated in vital organs.

    Children, pregnant women and fetuses are many times more sensitive, even a thousand times. The US GOVERNMENT raised "safe" levels such that Japan can export to US consumers fish and seafood not fit for consumption in Japan.

    The Cs-137 is more prevalent in reactors meltdowns than in nuclear war weapons'fallout.

    Eating seafood is now a crap shoot. Japanese mushrooms and Ukrainian mushrooms should be avoided.

  • Socrates

    Another point that Dr. Starr makes is that the body does not excrete man-made radionuclides as readily as it does natural radionuclides such as those found naturally occurring in foods. Therefore, Cs-137 builds up in the human body faster than the body can excrete it.

    He and Helen Caldicott work together. Without knowing what Dr. Starr says in this interview, you have not enough knowledge to protect yourself and your family. It is worth the listen.

  • Sol Man

    According to wiki, nuclear pits for the bombs over the years have ranged in design and size from 3 to 125 kg. in mass, and of various configurations.
    Are there any authorities that can give assurances that the loose coriums can not behave as one of the weapons?

    Didn't think so.

    • socref

      The physics of nuclear weapons and corium melt are much different. While the latter is a large size, the criticality is not the same conditions as a weapon. Without getting into too much detail (Cary Sublette's site could help) a criticality accident is not the same as a nuclear explosion. The reason it is different has to do with material density. While the masses are similar, the fissile densities are much different.

      • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

        And that's the point..what we are talking about is conditions..becoming amicable for the corium to become more explosive in nature…and present.
        While I think ..the majority of the people are looking..for a more nuclear type explosion.. as were the original explosions.

        • socref

          The original explosions were not nuclear explosions since there was no large neutron signature that would pose a radiological health problem to the workers most closest to the source. If you look at the Wikipedia page on criticality accidents, the 14 fatalities that have occured were due to a high neutron dose rate in a very short time, or a "spike" of fissions (on the order of 1e17-1e18 fissions over a millisecond or less).

          The Fukushima explosions were from hydrogen. I disagreed with Arnie Gundersen's theory on this and there are new papers that have been produced that pretty much dispel the criticality accident in Fukushima due to the lack of a large neutron dose.

          • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

            Uhh…I for one ..(in my opinion)..saw the mushroom shaped blast when 3 blew.
            Light..light..was the breath of death.

            • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose


            • socref

              That was hydrogen. Mushroom clouds occur in chemical reactions all the time.

              • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

                EVEN IF.. the process involved a step involving hydrogen…this would trigger a nuclear reaction
                A hydrogen explosion in a nuclear facility and the nuclear material.. is going to survive unscathed?

                • weeman

                  10 tons of TNT can start a nuclear chain reaction and I am guessing when those reactor buildings blew up more than 10 tons of TNT equivilant was unleashed.

                  • socref

                    The total TNT equivalent from 1e17 fissions from Godiva was less than a kg. One can work backwards from fissions to get the TNT equivalent The average nuclear criticality accident is 1e18 fissions, of which 1e17 is in the initial spike. The Wiki entry I helped write points to a reference to LA-13638 which will pretty much show the Godiva 57 results.


                • socref

                  It wasnt a nuclear criticality since there were no large neutron doses to people nearby. Thats the forensics.

                  • Angela_R

                    socref, I would think that there is a critical situation, but I understood a 'criticality' was when a chain reaction occurred. http://en.wikipedia,org/wiki/Criticality_accident.

                    I would suspect that large neutron doses have occurred.

                    How I interpreted Gundersen was that, on information supplied, a chain reaction has not commenced.

                    However a leaked report by EU Times about underground explosions, if validated, may change the outlook.

              • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

                PS..It wasn't a's an emission.

          • Sol Man

            Perhaps agree, or disagree, but take everything with a big grain of salt. The world has had many highly trained professionals through the years, and yet we find ourselves collectively in this horrible-bad situation. The list is long…

          • haizedustrium-1234 haizedustrium-1234

            Would you say criticality with full containment and criticality without containment with get you the same result in physics, being a physician?

            • socref

              No. The criticality with a containment (concrete) would attenuate neutrons if the concrete reactor building floor were in tact. However where there is no concrete (radially) the neutron to photon ratio would be 1/3 for a moderated criticality.

              • haizedustrium-1234 haizedustrium-1234

                What you say is based on years of experiments and careful examination and reading and writing, but the spikes indicates a non-linear non-exponential non-logarithmic non-anything random rise where H was pushed out of the containment. Right?

          • What Really Happened At Fukushima Reactor And Spent Fuel Pool #3? via A Green Road Blog

        • socref

          I cant envision a situation where corium from an LWR melt becomes "more dense" under a situation where a criticality could occur unless it is a very dilute solution or slurry under a high temperature. The density of uranium oxide is around 10 kg/cc. If the slurry were say 2 kg/cc there would not be a sustained reaction at critical. As the slurry cools, the densification could drive the critical mass versus concentration curve more towards optimally moderated. However corium and water is heterogenous and not homogenous like a slurry.

          • haizedustrium-1234 haizedustrium-1234

            For once you should think of plutonium as a game player in your equation and then that at 5000 degrees Celsius you won't even a water envelope around the slurry but a gas envelope the size of SUV's tyre and the specs of vapour in transit on the move. Feel the shake under your feet.

            • socref

              the presence of Pu may lower the critical mass slightly due to MOX or EOL considerations (end of core life) however the presence of fission product poisons usually offsets Pu's contribution. The LWR fuel in a heterogenous format has a larger critical mass than U+PU (look at ANSI/ANS 8.15).

              • haizedustrium-1234 haizedustrium-1234

                You are rolling the facts in, lowering the critical mass, shortens the criticality tolerance irrespective of whether the photon to neutron ratio has increased due to low speed neutrons captured in containment, because uranium is to plutonium what Kilimanjaro is to Everest in terms of kinetic energy, we are just waiting for the criticality to happen.

          • haizedustrium-1234 haizedustrium-1234

            Are you referring to this?


            What you also might want to envision is how the pressure of a hydrogen explosion would spike the density and the sustainable heat spikes following the deflective perfugaem which was different in the other reactors.

      • newsblackoutUSA newsblackoutUSA

        @socref….You mentioned being a scientist, but as a "fellow" scientist I do not use Wiki references when writing papers, or making an argument about physics etc.

        Also, fission products have a "dna" so to speak, and can be identified as in this paper that was published 12/27/2013 in which Fukushima Radioisotopes were identified in San Francisco.

        "A variety of environmental media were analyzed for fallout radionuclides resulting from the Fukushima nuclear accident by the
        Low Background Facility (LBF) at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (LBNL) in Berkeley, CA. Monitoring activities in
        air and rainwater began soon after the onset of theMarch 11, 2011 tsunami and are reported here through the end of 2012. Observed
        fallout isotopes include 131I, 132I,132Te,134Cs, 136Cs, and 137Cs. Isotopes were measured on environmental air filters, automobile
        filters, and in rainwater. An additional analysis of rainwater in search of 90Sr is also presented. Last, a series of food measurements
        conducted in September of 2013 are included due to extended media concerns of 134,137Cs in fish. Similar measurements of fallout
        from the Chernobyl disaster at LBNL, previously unpublished publicly, are also presented here as a comparison with the Fukushima
        incident. All measurements presented also include natural radionuclides found in the environment to provide a basis for comparison."

        • socref

          I dont use Wiki when writing papers either. However Wiki is for the "general audience" so they can get up to speed quickly. I evaluate whether the information in Wiki is applicable. For example, I contributed to several Wiki's.

          Isotopes have a DNA relative to emission energies. This is found in spectroscopy using solid state detectors such as HpGe or CZT. However it is difficult to ascertain the explicit location of an isotope if many sources are out there.

          I read the LBL article

        • socref

          Forgot to mention – the noticable absence of the 185 keV line would indicate no uranium migration in the aerosol. That was interesting and left out.

  • markww markww

    BREAKING NEWS Govt runs when asked about radiation tablets and silently turning off radiation detectors on west coast


    • jec jec

      Radiation tablets are only good for a few days of emergency covarge..its not for a CRONIC ongoing fallout situation. Gives people/children time to evacuate..and 14 Million tablets…several are used per dose. So could be they are restocking? I know where we live, the potassium tablets were NOT available in an emergency because they were past expiration date. The oountry health folks were concerned, but did not have doses in case the local nuclear plant had an accident (been this way since 2011). Other people should check their local emergency management plan and ask local authorities WHAT DO YOU HAVE!

      • bf9 Fitz

        I firmly believe (unsubstantiated) that these tablets are not for the general public, but rather military and government employees themselves. When you add up our armed forces, all state and federal employees…the numbers are pretty much in that ballpark. Gotta have healthy soldiers to keep the rioting irradiated public under control and at bay…

  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    Thank you..Markww.

    I add this..

    “Extremely High Levels Of Radiation Are Consistently Being Reached On West Coast WITHOUT RADCON 5 Alerts Being Issued” According To Nuclear Emergency Tracking Center Representative

    • Socrates

      Some models have shown that Cs-137 is being transported to North America by winds and ocean currents. The levels will increase to a maximum in about ten years. Corium melting through the Co Crete containment may bring Strontium-90 for the following 152 years after the initial 1,000 days following the 3-11 events.

      There will be various environmental vectors for radionuclide transport to North America. Wasn't the main fear following 9-11 dispersion of radionuclides? Now that the multinational corporations were responsible, the health effects are being minimalized.

      First, they scare you, then they totally deny there is any problem, while raising the "safe" limits.

      • socref

        One of the real nice uses for supercomputing is in the modeling and prediction of radionuclides over time. We have computer programs called ALE (adaptive Lagrangian Eulerian) that can superimpose a mesh on a geometry and deform it over time. The mesh points contain the equations of motion (ALE codes are used in hurricane prediction).

        Combining the radial basis function eulerian and Lagrangian schemes with geostatistics for modeling of radionuclide migration through the geosphere

        • zogerke zogerke

          and the point of this post and the concept you are trying to share with this web site is what?

          • socref

            That radioisotope migration can be predicted and that certain isotopes are not just "man made" as people claim. There is a lot I can share with this web site. Primarily if some technical point gets in the news, and this site is a news aggregator, then some technical interpretation should help people understand. I understand A Gundersen and for the most part he provides "generalities", I would like to think I fill in the gaps in knowledge so the layman can make their own conclusion.

            Im not here to say "no it isnt" but when some people go down a road that isnt supported by physics then there is room to inform and educate


            • Forgive me for asking, but Is this a full time job or are you retired?

              I don't know any publishing academics able to commit so much time to technical education of web forum participants.

              • zogerke zogerke

                the gentleman mentioned learning from graduate school instructors during the past couple of years, may be quite young.

                • zogerke zogerke

                  as i think, anyone with the unfortunately 'typical' amount of cancer in their family; anyone 'of age' who has seen the biological mass of life decrease over the decades..the sky's loss of birds and the missing sound of migrating wingbeats….the lack of flies on dead animals or poop….the lack of insects hovering at lights during hot summer months compared with just a few decades ago….anyone with a chronic illness….anyone who has paid attention to the draining away of life vibrancy outside and inside themselves…..gains insights such as age might gift and curse us with…..and therefore, might have some different posts to offer …..perhaps to comment about the sadness of what we are dealing with, which fukushima gravely adds to, sealing our fate…i would appreciate those comments, rather than just hearing someone deny and challenge, using arguments that are either wrong, technically obfuscated or emotionally removed from reality…look at the main posters on this site- one can have heart, compassion, loss, grief, gallows humor, outrage and challenge each other…share varied political perspectives….and STILL acknowledge what other's have said as valid… and join in conversations to share wisdom, not just show off or dispute………..

                  • zogerke zogerke

                    socref, if you are indeed young, and well intended, with an education that leads you to share your opinions as you have been doing.. (and not a shill or a paid reporter determined to derail)…..if you want to make a place for yourself in this forum as someone to be listened to, may i respectfully suggest that you acknowledge the horror that we are all trying to come to terms with instead of (what seems like) endlessly arguing points of physics that do not always make logical sense. If you have Something real to add, with a reliable source beyond wikipedia, using language that is designed to bring people in instead of cut people out….do so…..but otherwise, with no malice, expect to be endlessly challenged until people get bored of doing so and just ignore…..

            • Jebus Jebus

              They see right through you socref. These compassionate people do not want to be led by your pronuclear hand. You have nothing to offer this group but lies, propaganda, and disinformation. Your tactics are transparent to these critical thinking common sense people. You are a physicist and are of the profession that has brought this pain and suffering upon mankind. Your view of the world is psychopathic. It is a world in your eyes to be manipulated, inspected, dissected, and it gives you the feeling of power. You are not to be trusted. Look at what you and your profession have done to this planet. You claim to have the superior answers, but in reality you have zero power over natures world and you have no answers for the damage nuclear power has caused. Your idea suck it up, you know nothing. Everything is to be used for profit without giving back. You have poisioned everything that is good. You and your profession are evil incarnate and you have no empathy for what really matters in this lifetime. I wouldn't trust you to feed my dog. You and those in your industry will suffer the same fate that befalls everyone from the failed technology that is nuclear power. Time will allow the world to see your industries contribution for what it has done. If you could only see past your self appointed superior knowledge, you would see what needs to be done to stop these crimes against humanity that the lie of nuclear power is…

  • nedlifromvermont

    socref … so crass … so insincere …

    but he can do math …

    lock him up, now!

    shill patrol is working overtime …

    peace 'newsers … we rock as a team!!!

  • humptydumpty humptydumpty

    I have encountered scientists and other specialists whose narrow education and thinking leads them to minimize the deleterious effects of their specialization.

    Many of the technical physics arguments here strike me as being similar to the arguments made by economists to excuse the financial industry for their criminality and by the oil industry apologists for their negligence.

    We now have ample evidence that the specialists, when dealing with dangerous forces such as nuclear fission and financial derivatives and climate change, do not have control as they claim. Their risky enterprises are gravely dangerous to us all and they must be stopped.

  • pkjn

    The Smart Show – Fukushima officially hits California food & Water supply
    12/23/13 Progressive Radio Network

    Tokyo Electric announced that everything was under control, that there was a cold shutdown at the Fukushima plant about a year after the Fukushima accident. But in fact, Tokyo Electric has got the cores melted through the containment vessels, and 300 to 600 tons of radioactive groundwater going into the Pacific every day.

    Radioactive groundwater is going to accumulate and concentrate in marine life. Every cubic meter of water off the West Coast is going to have something like 10 to 20 atomic disintegrations per second from cesium in it over the next several years. Radioactive groundwater comes across the Pacific, some of radioactive groundwater is concentrated. The fish swim through radioactive groundwater and the fish feed in radioactive groundwater. It’s kind of a random process. It’s kind of a crap-shoot really.