Gundersen: Possible melted core will get through containment and hit water (AUDIO)

Published: December 25th, 2011 at 1:23 pm ET
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Arnold Gundersen with A Fresh Report on Fukushima, If You Love This Planet, A Weekly Radio Program with Dr. Helen Caldicott, Dec. 23, 2011:

This week, Dr. Caldicott and Arnold Gundersen, a nuclear energy consultant with Fairewinds Associates, have another look at how the Fukushima disaster is affecting Japan, and how the U.S. nuclear industry continues its plans to build new plants in America. [...]

Transcript Summary

At 6:15 in

  • We’re talking about 70 tons of nuclear material under reactor
  • Question is how deep did it go
  • If it began to attack in a narrow area it would form a crevice
  • If a crevice was formed it would lie in that crevice and continue to work its way downward
  • It’s now created a crater essentially
  • And it can’t be cooled from above
  • Because it sort of seals itself off at the top
  • Gradually working its way down through the concrete
  • They claim there is about 30cm left of concrete and 2 inches of steel in containment
  • Steel will melt quickly
  • It is possible that over time the core will continue to melt down and get through the nuclear containment
  • But whether or not that happen I don’t think there will be a steam explosion
  • (At 8:30 in) “I think it will drizzle out, I think it will gradually come into contact with water and solidify” as opposed to a large mass hitting the water suddenly, in which case you would get a steam explosion
  • I think the real key here is it doesn’t matter
  • The nuclear core is leaking through containment anyway
  • It doesn’t have to melt into groundwater
  • There are so many leaks in containment it is leaking into groundwater and ocean anyway
  • Therefore the plutonium and the cesium and the strontium that’s in the fuel has run throughout the entire complex anyway and is getting in the groundwater
  • China syndrome doesn’t matter because the groundwater is already contaminated because containment is leaking elsewhere.
  • Containment is so radioactive there is no way of determining where that nuclear core really is

Download the broadcast here

Published: December 25th, 2011 at 1:23 pm ET
By
Email Article Email Article
108 comments

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108 comments to Gundersen: Possible melted core will get through containment and hit water (AUDIO)

  • Al-Chemisto

    Arnie: “It’s a thousand 100 watt bulbs” :: I begin to tire of Arnie’s charade. One Mega-Watt is as Helen put it One Million Watts, it is not 100 thousand watts. I think I am beginning to see beyond the pseuso-information scheme these folks have cooked up into the depths of a cruel misinformation con job. Sure they seem to know there information, but when they come to the table with the “global warming carbon budget con game” balanced against no nukes. It is just so slimy. Slime.


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    • arclight arclight

      hi alchem.. hes prone to mixing stuff up!! he reads enenews anyway so he will up date! trust old arnie!! stopwatch on for another arnie correction!
      peace..


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      • Spectrometising

        ATTN: Arclight: Amazing 20 minute interview with Arnie ENENEWS may have missed. Cannot recomend it highly enough. And yes, i do agree with Arnie in the kind of non-issue of a steam explosion…
        Fukushima Total-Cost
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4spUp_LzEPM


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      • Spectrometising

        Further, i agree with you that there was no confusion with Arnie and Helen’s excellent reporting on this excellent coverage of a variety of issues. God bless them and their family..I love the radioactive banana analogy in the interview half way.


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        • arclight arclight

          hi spec. nasty arse recording here! but wowzer !! makes helen sound like a little pussy cat!! listen to busbies opening statement!! 2 weeks ago? in italy!!



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          • Spectrometising

            Arclight. Good work!! I am sure you sort out your female related differences with Helen.


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          • Rough transcript;

            Biggest problem of human race, if not dealt with properly could be the end of human life on Earth. It is as serious as that. Modern man has been around for 100K years, evolving over long period.

            The environment has been the same for that time, in which life grows and prospers. For 2,000 years of recorded history, we ended up with the last century with radiation spread around globally.

            Science is clever, and succeeded in tearing apart the materials of creation. Science create a whole set of elements that have never been seen before in human history.

            Last year I was in Africa, talking with a tribe there. Their land was being explored for uranium mining. I was asked to explain this in simple terms for them. What I said was; God created a terrible spirit called uranium, which was buried in the Earth so it could not cause terrible diseases and suffering among people. The white man has created a way to free this spirit from the ground, making a powerful energy that will make them rich. You must not take the riches that they offer you, or it will kill you and your children.

            This is the best way to look at it. I studied radiation and health for 20 years. In 1945, scientists created atomic fission which resulted in Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bombs. The Russian and US scientists continued to develop these weapons to make them even more powerful. They created huge quantities of radioactive materials that never existed before. Strontium, Cesium 138 plus a whole Pandoras box of radioactive substances were released into the global atmosphere. The peaks of testing were between 1959 and 1963. The substances got into the air, water and food, as well as all humans.

            Part I


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            • nuke lies and lies stock@hawaii.rr.com

              Stop abusing atoms, they were not meant to be tore apart.


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            • Part II Cont.

              The MDs of the world started to worry because of the increase of illnesses and cancers. Towards end of testing, there was a lot of pressure to stop testing nuclear weapons. Infant mortality increased in all countries were it was measured. Children and adults had autopsies and all showed increases of strontium.

              The US and nuclear industry created an agreement between WHO and AEA, to suppress more research on this issue. These agencies are not free, but are controlled by money from US corporations. We can see this by the way the UN agencies dealt with Chernobyl.

              About radiation… There are essentially 3 kinds. Gamma; it is like light
              Beta and alpha; they are like bullets

              Understanding these types of radiation is the key to know why these are killing people. It must be hard to understand how it is that the global governments can permit the exposures to these things, when they are killing them and causing cancer.

              In 1952, at the beginning, when they needed the bombs, during Cold War, they developed the ICRP. This organization is responsible for safety of nuclear power. They set limits for radiation exposure, and permitted the military to keep making bombs. In order to make bombs, you have to have plutonium, and in order to make plutonium, you have to have nuclear plants, because that is where you make this.

              So this period was expanding the use of nuclear energy, in parallel with making plutonium to make bombs. ICRP calculated the relationship between radiation and health, with a concept of ‘absorbed dose’. This means energy per unit mass; energy divided by mass, coming from external radiation. This is ok for radiation from outside, but does not work for radiation from inside, like a particle of plutonium.


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              • arclight arclight

                OI! WHOOPIE!!…..over here girl!! :) stop reading poetry! :)

                thats great agm !! +1000
                that will help the message get around the blogsfear!! :)
                i luv enenews!
                peace agm, love your posts!


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              • Part III transcript video above

                They set this framework up (only external radiation counts, but they TOTALLY ignore internal radiation taken in with lungs, food, water, etc) in 1952.

                Since that time, millions of people have died, because the nuclear regulatory bodies and industry have totally ignored the internal effect of radiation.

                If we do not stop these people, all of life and all human beings on Earth will die long term. The radioactive strontium, uranium and plutonium, etc., tend to bind to DNA and genetic materials within living systems. These radioactive materials have a high attraction for this material and affect it in negative ways, producing (2,600 genetically related diseases for example).

                After the atomic bomb tests, there was a cancer epidemic. Cancer rates skyrocketed from almost none and cancer being very rare before the atomic age, to a one in three people getting cancer rate now. Roughly fifteen years after stopping nuclear bomb testing above ground, there was a sharp increase in cancer, from 1978 onwards.

                The work I and my colleages have done has shown that the trend and shape increase is the same as the strontium increases in exposure in the 1960′s.

                For example; let’s take female breast cancer; the females most at risk for this are the same ones who had the highest exposure to strontium and other radioactive substances in the 1960′s.


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            • Whoopie Whoopie

              SENT YOUR TRANSCRIPT (COMMENT LINK) TO PAUL LANGLEY.
              THANKS AGAIN GR.


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          • Spectrometising

            My Contrib. I maintain it was an under reported video and thought it was a good quality.


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            • Spectrometising

              Arnie uses analogies profusely i know. This time the curve of a bathtub is used. I have listened to this interview about 5 times and always find new considerations to think about. I know exactly what he is talking about with respect to brittle concrete exploding like glass (I left a gas torch burning on concrete once, and when i cooled the concrete with water it did indeed explode). I think he does a lot to make it easy for the layman to understand and covers quite a lot here.


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          • NoPrevarication NoPrevarication

            @arclight

            Dr. Chris Busby. Speaker of the unvarnished truth. Enenews should nominate him for Man of the Year. His ability to explain to the people of the world what has been, and is continuing to harm them, makes all the others pale in comparison. Thank you so much arclight for posting this.


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          • StillJill StillJill

            Bless your ever lovin’ heart Arc! Like cool water to parched lips,….that’s what Dr. Busby is for me,…and countless others! Truly said earlier,…his is the lone straight talk.


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    • aigeezer aigeezer

      Al-C, are you saying you discount Arnie’s position because you perceive that he erred in a light bulb analogy?

      It seems quite a jump from light bulbs to “pseudo-information”, “cooked up”, “cruel misinformation con job”, “global warming carbon budget con game”, “slimy”, “slime”.

      Do you have any evidence for any of that (other than the light bulb gotcha moment)?


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      • Al-Chemisto

        i see Helen gathering her MD stormtroopers to tell everyone how its going to be. i see her parading the global warming con job on her IYLTP website as if it is real. She constantly hypes on “Doctor’s always are right and always tell the truth.” Pardon me, doctors are some of the most misinformed people on this planet. I know I went there. The medical model is “radiate cancer?” “antibiotics?” the health model is “diet is healthy all the way.” I have seen the crowd that Helen hangs with and it seems consistent with an Elite Agenda to pick up the pieces after the !!!!storm.


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        • Al-Chemisto

          i am not an MD I hold a PhD. same difference, broken philosophy. allowed me to see through the crap. and medicine is crap.


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          • hbjon hbjon

            Opium can be very usefull in numbing the pain. However, most of the wisdom of the ancients thought it better for an illness to run its course without intervention by the healers. How high of an education does one need to believe that leaving a disease to itself can, in most cases, foster better outcomes?


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            • ReactorHalfEmpty

              Heh, ok, so what would you say about the current disease? (you know which one I’m talking about…)
              Leave it to itself…?


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              • hbjon hbjon

                The disease at hand? Yes, of course. This disease has many unknown variables. If I knew just half of the variables I could throw something up here. I think those that know a thing, must make a computation on the optimum solution. Unfortunately, that equation sometimes says something must be destroyed. Remember that guy that was climbing a mountain and got his arm crushed by that boulder? He pulled out a dull swiss army knife and proceded to cut off his own arm without a second thought. There are no magic pills or magic tricks. Some people will have to make some really tough decisions.


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        • VanneV anne

          Dr. Caldicott is not a Nazi and her followers are not Nazi Storm troopers.


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        • VanneV anne

          Al- is the Arabic article “the”.

          “…The word ‘alchemy’ is a term comprised of the Arabic article ‘al’ and the noun ‘khemi’. The latter word relates to ‘Khem,” the Coptic name of Egypt. Alchemy thus means “that which pertains to Egypt.” The words ‘alchemy’ and ‘chemistry’ are a reminder of the scientific legacy of Egypt. According to an eleventh-century encyclopedic dictionary known as the ‘Suidas,’ the word ‘alchemy meant “the knowledge of the Egyptian Art, Chemi or Cham or the Black Land, which was the anciet name for Egypt. After astrology, alchemy is one of the oldest sciences known to humanity….:”

          p. 200 , The Essential Golden Dawn: An introduction to High Magic.

          http://books.google.com/books?id=WVoWXSd9owIC&pg=PA200&dq=alchemist+arabic&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uSv4TtrpIoHnggeahYmCAg&ved=0CGYQ6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q=alchemist%20arabic&f=false

          “Alchemy: Alchemy is the art and science of transformation. This is not an easily understood art, because the primal medium of alchemical expression is through the use of allegory and mythological symbols, which can be interpreted simultaneously both at a material and a spiritual level. The primary goal of alchemy is to bring all things, including humanity to its pre-ordained state of perfection

          “Alchemy: The word alchemy is an Arabic term comprised of the article “al” and the noun “khemi.” The later word relates to “Khem” the Coptic name of Egypt. Alchemy thus means, “that which pertains to Egypt.” Thus the words alchemy and chemistry are a reminder of the scientific legacy of Egypt. Another possible origin of the word is the Greek “cheo” which means “I pour” or “I cast”—a word often used in reference to the ancient Greek metalworkers who used many alchemical formulae”
          http://www.experiencefestival.com/alchemy


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          • Spectrometising

            Isn’t it ironic? Those of us here who are now performing ‘post Fukushima’ alchemy are far more interested in turning ****gold into lead**** to perform analysis for food contamination and so on.
            Three inches of Lead (Pb) is a good start for radionuclide analysis/food testing and so on.


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        • VanneV anne

          People who promote transmutation have given us MOX fuel which is now killing off all 7 billion people on the earth:

          Nuclear transmutation

          Reactor types
          For instance, plutonium can be reprocessed into MOX fuels and transmuted in standard reactors. The heavier elements could be transmuted in fast reactors, but probably more effectively in a subcritical reactor which is sometimes known as an energy amplifier and which was devised by Carlo Rubbia. Fusion neutron sources have also been proposed as well suited.[6][7] [8]”
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_transmutation


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      • Spectrometising

        Agreed algeezer. I see so many “instant”, just add water, comments here it can at times resemble sorting for a particle of wheat amongst the straw or a talk fest somewhat.


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      • Spectrometising

        “‘Everybody talks as if our learned know that half a hundred is fifty’.”


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    • sandman

      Al-chemisto, how could you possibly have attended institutions of higher education long enough to earn a PhD and still be so illiterate, ignorant, and unthinking? Were your studies done in a middle eastern or African country? Somewhere else? Given your rant about physicians being the same as PhDs, I seriously doubt that you could be either. Your ideas are too stupid to merit the bother of rebuttal.


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      • Al-Chemisto

        ignorant, illiterate, and unthinking. wow. ((( Do you see the whole aquarium in which we swim? Do you see those who guide history and use others to achieve their goals? I do. If I hand you a broken tool that only leads to my goal and call it Medical Knowledge and I give you “Priesthood” status in the community. then I create situation we are in now. where do we go? what are my goals? (personally I have no clue about many goals: Control is one of the main goals). ))) I am also glad that I am confident in my elocution and the basis of my words. Are you so insecure and have so little care for yourself that you would denigrate the value of an advanced degree obtained in the M.E. or Africa? Is a degree obtained in TelAviv or Johannesburg somehow less in rigor? You have done yourself a disservice by responding, because with your own words you display your nature. A racist, for one. One who has little idea of advanced education, for two.


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        • Whoopie Whoopie

          I found the comment offensive too. Uncalled for on a Blog that “thrives” on everyone’s opinion.
          Power to the People
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wos-dDxpJlQ
          TOGETHER WE can ALL make a difference.


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          • Kevin Kevin

            While the language is a little harsh, the sentiment may not be far off the mark. As someone who has dealt with issues management most of my life it is very clear to me that those framing this debate do indeed have skin in the game, a history with the industry and all the reasons typically associated with such underatakings.

            This does not undermine the work of people like Arnie and Helen, however it does give context for critical thinkers.

            It is important to understand anyone who “is out there” on the issues and achieves mainstream notoriety is more often than not “sent” rather than “arrived.”

            Arnie and Helen have provided invaluable information from credentialed sources and material to support assertions outside of the box managed entirely for the benefit of industry, but that does not mean the role is far removed from industry’s management of the issues.

            These strategies are very effective, tried, tested and true and even find definition in such places as Wikipedia. Search the terminology “limited hangout” or simply click here.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_hangout


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            • Bobby1

              I never knew that “limited hangout” has been around since Nixon. That sick and twisted creep has been the foundation of all sorts of deep dark cloak and dagger criminality ever since he was around.

              Helen Caldicott has been at this for decades. I never heard of Arnie till after Fuku happened. Helen is 73 and maybe she isn’t aware of all the latest up-to-date stuff about Fuku.

              It seems the idea that the coriums are getting hotter is the “greater offense” they are trying to cover up. That’s why they are circling the wagons while the anti-nuke natives attack the nuke wagon train.


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        • VanneV anne

          A culture war between those who want to pursue and use nuclear and destroy the planet and all life, and those who want to save the environment and the human race.


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      • HoTaters

        Hey, I took the comment as meaning the system that creates PhD’s and MD’s is broken. In other words, the MD’s and PhD’s are as imperfect as the system which created them. That sounded like a fairly humble admission to me ….


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    • Really Al? i’m having a hard time buying Caldecott as an embedded nuke shill. she’s among a stellar group of folks trying for a long time now attempting to wake the People
      http://realitycheck.no-ip.info/forum/index.php/topic,21.0.html

      ps. sandman, thanks for all that YOU do
      http://www.thesandmanproject.com/revolution.htm


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      • sandman

        Wow, that’s quite a site, but I’m afraid I can’t take credit for any of it, it’s not me. Some other Sandman, I expect there’s lots of us out there :) ) My Sandman name comes from my work, I’m the one who puts you to sleep.
        It just annoys me when these disinformation types try to discredit Arnie Gunderson or Helen Caldicott, or any of the other people doing such heroic work. Unfortunately, there are still lots of people who don’t consider the source or motivation of untruthful comments, and are likely to be swayed by this type of propaganda. Lying is evil, whether overt or by implication.


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    • nuke lies and lies stock@hawaii.rr.com

      Hey Big Al, your jump from a simple mistake in calculation to a ranting conspiracy theory makes me wonder if your tinfoil hat is on way too tight.

      Cap and trade is a bunch of crap designed to hand credit to those who don’t need them (the big companies that have done well, partly through lobbying and legislation that helps them), and force less well connected companies to pay “carbon tax” which then goes to the big well connected companies. It furthers the monopolization of the world. Which sucks.

      And please use the word “their” when you mean possessive, and not “there” which means place location. It will make you look as smart as your supposed PHD.

      Taking pot shots at Arnold is really kind of anti-social.


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    • What charade are you talking about? You are basically calling him a liar, are you not?

      Who is the alternative? Are you saying the nuclear industry, nuclear regulatory agencies are a better choice of people to listen to as far as truth tellers? Are the mass media the ones to listen to, in terms of telling it like it is? Who do you suggest we listen to and learn from, if this guy is no good?

      In my view, just because a person makes a small mistake in a speech, is no reason to attack everything they do. The overall message is what is important to concentrate on. I believe he tells the truth much more so than the industry he is talking about..

      Do you disagree with this basic premise? What


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  • mikael

    God old Arne is spott on, it realy doesnt matter, and a explosion is not nessesery to happen, because of the nature of molten metal.
    The main issue is size and lokation.
    Nombero uno, or sould be on the topp of the list.

    No, hes been causious and fearminded, and if you have seen his documantarys on the Nukl, just the images of Holes in the various “tank”vessels and chambers, his credibility is rock solid.
    Its the Nuklind that is The Problem.

    And if you may pleas, go fu.. your self.

    And again, we have almoust nothing, of wurth to deal with, but so far after TEPCOs admittions, we are fully in sync.

    peace


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  • Bobby1

    Arnie’s arguments represent what is known in 9/11 parlance as a “limited hangout”. This is a watered-down version of the truth, that misses essential points, and defines the limits of acceptable dissent as defined by the perpetrators themselves.

    Here we hear Arnie making the absurd claim that since the groundwater is contaminated already, it won’t cause an explosion when the corium hits it. What does that have to do with anything?

    He accepts the Tepco simulations of the status of the coriums, which of course do not include re-criticalities that have been occurring since March, and heat up the corium every time. We just have cloud of radioactive iodine circle the globe that was probably worse than the March one. Arnie’s buddy Marco Kaltofen has a radiation isotope lab and could have measured it. Antiprotons measured iodine in the rain, and he’s pro-nuke!

    Helen Caldicott, of course, is wonderful and is one of the great heroines of our age.


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    • pure water

      Have in mind this:
      The rate of spontaneous fission per second per ton in the fuel is in the order of 3.42 million and the resulting neutron flux of about 8.36 million neutrons per second per ton likely induce fission or activation of components of the fuel. Based on the program, there is provided an average of 3.42 per gram for spontaneous fission a neutron flux of 8.36 per gram.
      From here:
      http://www.aipri.blogspot.com/
      Google Translate is enough for it.


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    • Kevin Kevin

      Guess I should have read your post before posting above.

      ;)


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  • The bottom line remains the same regardless of where you stand on Helen or Arnie – controlling and containing must be our primary concern. The amount of radionuclides that have already been dumped into the ocean is so catastrophic that the ecosystem itself may not recover from it. And the leaking is still occurring? We need to get on this NOW.


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  • enemoe

    He’s not making the claim that we wont have a hyrovolcanic explosion because the water is already contaminated. He is making the claim that there won’t be a large enough mass of molten corium to cause a hydrovolcanic explosion. “It doesn’t matter” is in reference to the extreme local contamination occurring and the increasingly non-local contamination of the Pacific Ocean. It doesn’t matter if the corium melts through or not, there’s already so much nuclear pollution there that we can’t stop, the location of the corium is somewhat irrelevant.


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  • Whoopie Whoopie

    SUNDAY, DECEMBER 25, 2011
    #Radioactive Concrete Debris (3000 Bq/Kg) OK and Safe to Use in Fukushima Prefecture
    http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/12/radioactive-concrete-debris-3000-bqkg.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter


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  • God

    Momma says Arnie is all ornery because of his medula omblongata


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  • Whoopie Whoopie

    Posted on Nov 28th but it brings up a point I didn’t even think about! Landfills are going to be filled up with this radioactive debris HERE TOO.
    Never ending, globe trotting Island of Poison.
    Fukushima Day 262 Radioactive Tsunami debris in West coast Landfills & Yt Censorship
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7r-Ks1gkUY&feature=share


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  • dosdos dosdos

    The units are sieves. One way or another, the radionuclides enter the environment.


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  • jackassrig

    Gundersen just cannot get off of that melting thing. I will post this again
    Steel’s basic allowable stress varies with temperature. A516, plate a common steel used in the fabrication of pressure vessels, has the following allowable stresses:
    100 °F 23300 psi
    200 °F 23300
    300°F 22500
    400°F 21700
    500°F 20500
    600°F 18700
    650°F 18400
    700°F 18300
    750°F 14700
    800°F 12000
    850°F 9200
    The stress that can be developed in the steel determines the amount of loading on the shell and head of the vessel. The reactors at Fuku failed long before the steel reached its melting temperature. If the corium is at a temperature of 2500°F then the vessel would have failed somewhere around 850°F. When I say failed I mean a catastrophic collapse. The head or shell which is about 12 inches thick is probably at the bottom of the containment vessel. These are enormously heavy vessels. I’m not sure why TEPCO was so worried about the corium melting through the vessel. The steel collapsed long before the melting temperature.
    Engineers and Gundersen tend to forget about the relationship between stress and temperature.
    Concrete’s stress level varies with temperature. So the corium didn’t melt though the containment vessel, the concrete failed long before the melting temperature reached melting.
    Add to to this the chlorides-from salt water-that were injected to cool the reactor and you have a recipe for disaster.


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  • Sickputer

    My take on this…I hope Arnie is right in his theory. Because massive radiation in the ocean is in my opinion much preferable to airborne Jetstream molecules. Most of you remember I was among the shaped bomb charges advocates to blow the plants into the sea.

    So now we hear that disposal may happen slowly if this theory is validated.

    The ocean can absorb and hold in silt a large amount of the fuel from this megaplex. True, there is already and will be in the future a large amount swept away across the globe. Some of that also will fall in layers of silt. Mother earth is self-healing. We are not as durable.

    Some of this dispersion will kill an untold number of carborn-based organisms. People will die, but not at the rapid rate of airborne radiation in megatonnage to the downwinders.

    Regardless of my admiration for Arnie, since we are in uncharted territory for cores migrating outside containment buildings I hesitate to embrace any corium theory until it becomes proven fact. We all knew Tepco was praying since week 2 this theory would occur, but the proof is in the pudding. We shouldn’t have to wait more than a few months to see what the blobs will do.

    SP


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    • Anthony Anthony

      As much as i loathe the thought, I do see your point and find myself agreeing you may be right. The airborne nature of this event is probably more critical aspect to minimize.


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  • a story about concrete:
    we had a newly build home for people here, where one of the workers made fun by breaking one sewage-pipe. so for ca. 1-2 years all waste-water was standing in the containing bigger concrete tunnel/shaft.
    then people noticed a strange odor. after analysis it turned out: the building was wrecked, the concrete soaked with shitwater like a sponge, could not be repaired and all the sewage was wandering very slowly right through the concrete.
    Whatever “watery substanze with ingredients” is inside fuku plant, the concrete is no concrete any longer due to this. boronic acid, chloride, nuclids, cesium, all that stuff will have altered the concrete to a large amount. not to talk about the behaviour of the strengthenig steel inside the concrete under salt attack and changing temperaturs. Not to talk of the quakes … and so on
    and with every month the situation will worsen, thats for sure as not a single word like “reinforcing structure” has been mentioned all the time.


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    • Unless there is a HUGE explosion and MASSIVE radiation release, my guess is that this will be a huge cover up, and no one will ever know what really happened. No meters record any radiation release up the ‘vent’ stacks, and none are downwind. Blame the trees and fish and lack of enough smiling for any radiation issues or strange increases in radiation around Japan, globe, etc.

      They may be too far into this to back out now. They declared ‘cold shutdown’, and are inviting people back into Fukushima, as everything is back to normal.

      So if all that happens is a couple of 65 ton out of control radioactive fire/uranium/plutonium containing corium blobs are oozing down to groundwater and releasing hundreds of BILLIONS of Bq of radiation a day for a couple of hundred thousand years, so what? Who cares?

      The positive PR campaign is working through the corporate owned mass media.. Cold shutdown, back to normal.

      Now let’s get back to the normal programming on TV, and start building another 400 nuke plants with Joe The Plumber taking all the risks, eating all of the costs for cleanup, but getting NONE of the profits.


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      • Well, there’s one good thing about the TeeVee and shopping malls in the ‘modern’ world – the only time most people are outside “exposed to the elements” is when they go between the front door and their car, then from the car to the mall entrance. The rest of the time, we’re all “Sheltering In Place.” Only crazy Hippies with no television ever go out into nature these days…

        [/irony]


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  • americancommntr

    If it were possible to located masses of corium underground, then it might be possible to put an electrostatic cooling apparatus close to it, and cool it that way.

    Possibly, an extremely powerful electromagnetic field could alter the rate of radioactivity, maybe slow it down or stop it.

    Then there’s always Brown’s Gas flame, which reportedly will neutralize a pellet of Cobalt-60 in mere minutes or less.


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  • Sickputer

    Addendum…Not to rain on the corium theory parade to the sea in this thread…but let us not forget the massive amounts of fuel rods still in the 6 Unit buildings and the CSFP. Scary stuff.

    Perhaps there will NOT be a massive steam explosion. But if there is massive “vapor” releases of significance that makes the plant grounds uninhabitable (like the current unapproachable Unit 3) then there is still a major problem for airborne isotopes from the piles of rods.

    If feed and bleed stops…what then? Perhaps they are trying to semi-entomb the rods as the parade of concrete trucks seems to indicate.

    But that job is not going to get done with the workforce Tepco has assembled. They are about 2 million workers short of what they need to mitigate the situation. Time is running out anyway so in my opinion it really doesn’t matter if they made a late push as this stage. Horrors yet await the work force at Daiichi.

    From where I sit this train wreck is headed hellbent for disaster for Japan and will create serious health issues for the entire Northern Hemisphere and even below the Equator.


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    • hbjon hbjon

      All I know is if they are gonna take drastic action, wait till the wind is blowing somewhere other than the west coast of the good old U S OF A. Roger that? 10- 4 good buddy?


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  • Whoopie Whoopie

    OT
    GREAT NEWS!!
    MERRY CHRISTMAS ANTI-NUKES!!
    Interior Secretary Ken Salazar said his department has approved a 300-megawa­tt solar farm on public land in Arizona and a 200-megawa­tt wind farm in Southern California­. The wind farm includes 186 megawatts that would be produced on federal lands. http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/interior-department-approves-solar-farm-in-arizona-and-wind-farm-in-california/2011/12/20/gIQAsdGQ7O_story.html


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  • Whoopie Whoopie

    Dont do this often but will NOW:
    Outnow at HP:
    “Arnie Gundersen’­s latest audio with Helen Caldicott:
    The nuclear core is leaking through the containmen­t. The core collapsed and got out of the reactor vessel in one day. The bottom of the reactor is a bowl make of steel with 64 holes to allow the control rods to be placed. Unit 2 & 3 had cooling for a few more hours. Unit 1 was 90% melted. 60% was melted in units 2 & 3. The fuel is lying on the floor of the containmen­t in all three.

    45,000 pounds of radioactiv­e water high in strontium was released into the ocean by a surface leak. The concrete has cracks from the earthquake­. Groundwate­r comes in and drains out at some point. The flow is from the ground into the ocean.

    This accident is ten times the size of any previous strontium dump into the ocean. 30 million billion disintegra­tions per second for the next century was released into the ocean.

    Listen yourselves because I’m more of a social scientist than a nuclear guy. TEPCO and the Japanese government both want to eliminate their liability. They want to minimize the magnitude the liability so it is hard to get accurate informatio­n.

    The EPA does not test fish on West Coast. Fish swim thousands of miles. Beware! There is large amounts of cesium. They assume that it is dissolved uniformly. It ain’t so.


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  • What Arnie says that I agree with is that Japan is NOT taking this crisis seriously. They are NOT being honest with a lot of what is going on… But then again, the whole nuclear industry is built on scientific hot air, smoke and mirrors, in my opinion.

    Radiation meters are all upwind at Fukushima, but none are downwind.

    NO radiation meters are located on radiation ‘vent’ stacks, which puts all radiation up high in the atmosphere, where no one can measure it. Previous nuclear tests then get blamed for the high altitude radiation belts.

    No radiation is counted that is going into on site tanks, or into ocean, or into ground, as far as total released, and only 2 isotopes are being counted out of the fifty or more released into the air.

    I bet that they are NOT counting the long lived isotopes at all. There are potentially 13 of them being released that last millions or billions of years. But, not matter what happens here…

    NASA reports that a Carrington Event WILL take down our electrical grid eventually, anywhere from 1 day to 300 years from now. No matter what happens with Fukushima, if this happens and we still have 400 plus civilian nuke plants, plus 400 military/research facilities, you can kiss all life on the planet goodbye.
    http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2008/06may_carringtonflare/

    We need to start getting honest and telling it like it is, not making up stories for short term gain of worthless paper.

    Shut them all down, if you want a future.. PERIOD.


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    • WindorSolarPlease

      Hi AGreenRoad

      AGREE!!! +100


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    • nuke lies and lies stock@hawaii.rr.com

      I agree, 100% I have studied the Carrington, it caused havoc at a time that there was hardly any pipelines or wires

      Sheesh Big “Al” Edison was only 12 years old when the 1859 Carrington hit.

      http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2008/06may_carringtonflare/

      Work as a Telegraph Operator
      In 1862, Edison rescued a three-year-old from a track where a boxcar was about to roll into him. The grateful father, J.U. MacKenzie, taught Edison railroad telegraphy as a reward. That winter, he took a job as a telegraph operator in Port Huron. In the meantime, he continued his scientific experiments on the side. Between 1863 and 1867, Edison migrated from city to city in the United States taking available telegraph jobs.

      Pro-nukes are just wrong, all the way wrong, wrong in the most terrible of ways.


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  • Whoopie Whoopie

    AToms has been all over this thread all day
    So for my LAST message of the day for him:

    For you Atoms (cry baby for the Nuclear Industry: CBFTNI)
    Homeless Man Under Pressure
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYXKaAzEJrk
    You dont EVEN know the pain felt by us all.

    C O M P A S S I O N
    L O V E
    C A R I N G
    OBVIOUSLY IS NOT IN YOUR DNA.

    NIGHT ALL!
    I LOVE YOU JAPAN!!


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  • dharmasyd dharmasyd

    Thanks to the_deacon…
    for reminding us to keep our eyes upon the issue and not upon the peeps.


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  • PoorDaddy PoorDaddy

    Had a very merry and bittersweet Christmas with my kids and grandkids…just got home. We are all in the Pac NW. My oldest son is the only one that understands what we are all up against. Had some excellent home pressed cider that tasted excellent…..both he and I toasted each other, probably literally.
    A Merry Christmas to all the enenewsers that have provided knowledge and support since last March. I thank you all, and am lovingly grateful to you and for you.


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  • Five Point Action Plan

    1) Shut down all 1960′s and 1970′s Nukes, all within 2 years.

    2) Disallow any new permits, make a law against it, and by this, I mean the whole world.

    3) Phase out all Nuke plants within 5 years.

    4) Replace with renewables and base-load geothermal within 5 years.

    5) Increase energy efficiency, give governmental tax rebates on LED lighting. Provide 75% Gov funded energy conservation surveys by Certified Energy Managers

    Got it? It is not that hard, make the decision and then implement it like a project.


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  • Merry Christmas all you wonderful people. Did’nt listen to interview just read the synopsis. Makes sense, what Arnie says.
    I can’t see any good reason why Fukushima is not in the news. Only logical conclusion is purposful censorship. But listen folks, dont worry about the china syndrome, worry about all that spent fuel that needs to be cooled for years to come and why #3 is so radioactive no one can go near. Hope conditions don’t change such that they can’t service the spent fuel pools, why don’t they move spent fuel? Arnie can only say so much because really he can only surmise. Only thing we know for sure is that tepco has a history of lying. As far as doctors go I had a chronic back problem that got much better when I stopped going to the doctors. Doctors, politicians bankers and lawyers, all a bunch of crooks. Please pray for God to help us

    God Bless


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  • Hey, tip here, add a photo to your name.
    Go to upper right, click profile, and then in there you can add a picture.

    Do it today.
    Start the 5 point action plan today (PS stop nukes)


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  • micsam

    Everyone knows what the planet Mars Looks like is that what the elite want for their children’s future. I believe the Genie is out of the battle and no one can put it back. Sad how the human mind works the elite think they are God or the creative life force that made everything seen and unseen. DNA RNA the nothing inside a seed The quantum, thoughts, super subconscious mind the miracle of memory. Their minds are really distorted


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