Top US Nuke Official: Melted core penetrates concrete at 2 inches per hour — No doubt containment is lost during blackout — Manual tells you everything except how to stop it — Mark I worst of all (AUDIO)

Published: March 1st, 2012 at 2:23 am ET
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Title: ML12052A108
Source: NRC’s Operation Center Fukushima Transcript
Date: March 16 2011

CHUCK CASTO [Deputy Regional Administrator]: [...] if we end up with a molten core and then you talk about the time for the concrete to disassociate, you know, that NUREG says it’s a couple of inches an hour, you know. And, of course, that Mark 1 containment is the worst one of all the containments we have, and it’s literally, you know, this NUREG tells you that in a station blackout you’re going to lose containment. There’s no doubt about it.

But, anyhow, I just would highlight that that is a valuable resource, that NUREG. I think it’s — is it 6150, CR-6150, Perspectives on Nuclear Safety? It completely walks all of this down. It’s already been thought out. It’s already been reviewed, looked at, modeled, everything. So, the one thing the NUREG doesn’t really do is tell you how to stop it, how to mitigate it, other than keeping water on it. But the Lab may have some recommendations.

NUREG/CR-6150, Vol. 2, Rev. 2 INEL-96/0422 Modeling of Reactor Core and Vessel Behavior During Severe Accidents: http://pbadupws.nrc.gov/docs/ML0103/ML010370328.pdf

Published: March 1st, 2012 at 2:23 am ET
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120 comments

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120 comments to Top US Nuke Official: Melted core penetrates concrete at 2 inches per hour — No doubt containment is lost during blackout — Manual tells you everything except how to stop it — Mark I worst of all (AUDIO)

  • Kevin Kevin

    This is exacly what it will do……

    Oh, What are you gonna do to stop it?

    Nothing, errr, well you could put a hose on it I guess!

    What a bunch of rocket scientists.

    Core through the floor at two inches an hour eh?

    Ummm melt down almost a year old.

    Puts it squarely deep into the ground by now, no?


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    • What is under the cement barrier? Dirt? Rock?


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    • AGreenRoad AGreenRoad

      Fukushima; Is It REALLY In 'Cold Shutdown'? Plus; What Is The Rest Of The Story?
      http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=1693739515355388462#editor/target=post;postID=3792127409596329382
      Via A Green Road Blog
      http://agreenroad.blogspot.com/


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    • BillyRaz

      Speaking of Hoses-WICKED SHILL alert ADMIN PLEASE RESPOND– I have been on this site since the beginning of this mess and HERE IS WHAT THE SHILLS HAVE DONE– I can no longer comment- I get fed over to a FAKE ENENEWS SITE and threatened with exposure whatever that means and they have kept records of stuff i have said that may indicate recent travel and defining traits and people I know! This i s not a joke most of the so called people on here now are just shills like 80% of them they are just pretending to be humans talkin shit about TEPCO sounding in with the boyz then slowly turn us!
      PEOPLE BE WARE UR COMMENTS ARE BEING read with interest if the above happens to U PLEASE REPORT this is Psyop BS and u will not be able to hit the reply button! Only admin but its NOT ADMIN that I KNOW!!!!!
      ADMIN U HAVE MY EMAIL-BillyRaz


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      • LloydJHart LloydJHart

        Calm down Billy, I grew up being watched by the RCMP Special Branch as my father was the brains behind the computerized fail safe systems that now run most nuclear power plants. He had a triple E security rating that put him on par with a head of state.

        Trying to claim your privacy has been breached these days is laughable because the state has never cared about your privacy and never will. It is better for your own peace of mind that the state knows exactly how and what you think of them.

        When I conducted a hunger strike in B.C. to protest the resumption of uranium mining and told the public that my father died as a result of radiation poisoning the security thugs did everything to intimidate me but I just laughed at them and they melted away. Fear of surveillance is no justification for ending your activism.


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      • HoTaters

        I suggest you increase your personal security and privacy to the maximum level possible — if you have not already done so.


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      • Arizonan Arizonan

        Billy,
        Lloyd is quite right. There is nothing they can do to you – I mean yes, there are, but most of us, by reading and writing and talking about this, and trying to share info on Fukushima, are overall fairly harmless as far as they are concerned. It is a matter of record that the US and British security apparati cooperate in order to eavesdrop on their citizens. This means nothing. There are really far too many of us for 'them' to keep track of, even with 10 billion dollar supercomputers. So, take a deep breath my friend. Fear not the SHRILLS of the nuclear wasters, for they are on the losing side. The sooner they lose, the better, but their power is noticeably waning. Remember that. They are never as powerful as they want to appear to be!! Just take another deep breath Billy, really! It is going to be okay, even if it nothing is ever quite 'okay' again after Fuku. Does that make sense? Peace, bro, much peace to you.


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  • Alice Alice

    So it's been approx. 8520 hours since March 11.

    8520 X 2 inches = 142 feet.

    Give or take a few days before ONE core melted, I'd guess that's gone into?

    Help me out here. Into the Octopus's garden?


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    • Alice Alice

      Correction: 1420 feet


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      • lokay5

        And they thought hell was hot before!
        What'll that molten core gets there!
        The devil can't wait!
        YoW !


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      • Arizonan Arizonan

        Wow thanks for that. Even if a very conservative estimate is 1000 ft, that still puts it down there, perhaps capable of generating the billowing steam from the ground the camera caught for a few minutes a couple of days ago? What is down there? Ocean? Fresh water? Bedrock? Does anyone know.

        We do not know the basis of the calculations in the handbook, nor can we know exactly if those exact 'lab' conditions were perfectly emulated in a REAL runaway disaster – four meltdowns/thrus within a couple of days of each other. Yes I said FOUR. The coriums must now contain a whole new mixture of cladding, MOX, uranium, every other f-ing radionuclide the damn things create in there, steel, concrete, sea water, and possibly some soils from below the plants. Come on, you god-like nuke manual writers! Come up with a predictive calculation for the speed of descent for that!


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    • Kevin Kevin

      Only about 8 feet of concrete to eat through at 2 inches an hour, I would imagine once it hits earth it travels much more rapidly.

      love you short quips though, you gotta great sense of humour


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      • Alice Alice

        I swear, Kevin, there have been days when I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

        All the right ingredients for a blockbuster disaster movie but all too real.

        We're going over an abyss.


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        • Kevin Kevin

          Yah I know exactly what you mean.

          Its a strange thing, living 5000 miles away from something, and thinking about leaving. Few if any relate. You slip in and out of the reality of it all. Its hard to put in words, and its not me so much but my daughter. The sense of responsibility makes it difficult just to let go and join everybody else in the land of make believe.


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          • Laterlukemayb Laterlukemayb

            Oh I forgot to mention which pic you need to look at. Scroll down to picture #9 which is close top view of #4. See the little craters. Could those be corium craters????


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          • PhilipUpNorth philipupnorth

            Kevin: owning a Geiger counter helps. The beeps in the background as various hot particles float past the window of my home, helps bring the reality of Fuku home to me every day. Today, we are at an average of 15 cpm inside my house. Pre-Fuku levels were 3 to 9 cpm from sunshine, old above ground tests, 'normal' releases from atomic death plants, and from the earth. So buy a Geiger counter, Kevin. It's good therapy, calms your fears, gives you valuable information about your safety (or lack thereof), and lets you know when it is safe to go outdoors, and when it is best to stay indoors. Good luck to us all!


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        • lokay5

          Alice
          One of my all-time favorite novels is "The Promethius Crisis". It's a great story about a nuclear reactor disaster. It was hard to put down even the SECOND time I read it!


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          • Wreedles Wreedles

            I bought another copy off e-bay in, oh, May of '11 so I could re-read it too. The other book I bought off e-bay was "We Almost Lost Detroit." That one is true.


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          • Alice Alice

            Thank You, lokay. I haven't read it.

            Too bad this isn't a novel. I half expect to wake up and find myself in a meadow with birds chirping.


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      • Laterlukemayb Laterlukemayb

        Hey Kevin how's it goin? Ya know I was looking over some High Def. pics of #3 & #4 and there was something I noticed. I see what looks like small craters in the ground around the Unit building. I did a search for pic of the entire complex prior to the tsunami. I couldn't find any structures, light poles or guard railing to account for those holes. So, anyway I'm wondering if when the guts of the core were blown all over the place if the fuel was already in meltdown, then could it have fallen as globes and burned holes into the earth. Just wondering. Some look uniform in they're placement, but it's the other hole that look like they have a ridge to them I'm talking about.
        Not sure exactly which story thread it's on but if you find it take a look and tell me what you opinion of those uniform holes in the ground and the ones with the ridge around them are from or caused by. Found the link so you don't have to look for the story thread. :)

        http://cryptome.org/eyeball/daiichi-npp/daiichi-photos.htm


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        • Laterlukemayb Laterlukemayb

          sorry for the typos, wish my hands would type the words I'm thinking.


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        • Kevin Kevin

          If I am looking at the right pic, it seems there is a pattern or they are straight in a line along the road, which wuold suggest they are not from a randon cause.

          However the rooves of the small buildings between 3 and 4 seem to have holes. But cause is anyones guess.

          I suspect that an exploding core or pool would scatter the material in such away that blobs of that size would not exist.

          The rods are skinny and if they blew they would likely aerosolize of flake like we have been hearing versus blob.


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          • Laterlukemayb Laterlukemayb

            Yes Kevin I know about those, what I was hoping you'd be able to see were the other holes, craters around the base of #4 and across the street, especially across the street where it looks like a light post may have been. Like I said though I haven't been able to find any pre-tsunami photos to explain them. Of course if they were entry points where coruim from #3 could have landed then melted through they probably would have buried them or something. Thanks for taking a look though.


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      • Gotham

        Eight feet of concrete @ 2inches per hour – means it could eat through in 48 hours.

        They had no water on the corium for how many days…?

        The core melted through the RPV in a couple of hours – hit the floor and within a couple of days melted out.

        Why doesn't anyone lay that timeline out?


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      • jec jec

        Corium 1420 feet into the ground..but since it is a GOO..probably can go sideways as well. Is it possible the GOO from Reactor 1 has joined with GOOs 2 -4? or even GOO from 5 -6 at the ground water level? And is that the reason for the concrete piling on the ocean floor? They are afraid of a break out or open flow into the oceans? Chilling thought.


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        • Rock would slow the melt rate, quite a lot if its more solid (less porous). But those occasional flash fission events would keep the corium hot. Deal is, it takes far less energy to follow fissures than to melt straight down through rock, and frequent earthquakes have fairly shattered the ground beneath Fuku-I reservation. When corium flows met with groundwater last summer, steam and boiling water began erupting so they laid heavy metal sheets on the ground to protect workers. Those sheets had originally been there to try and seal off the cliff and port. So now they're busy pouring 'concrete' to cover the seabed in the port and discharge areas. So I figure corium is following fissures toward the ocean and must be getting close.


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          • StillJill StillJill

            HELLO–They are pouring concrete to CONCEAL what and WHOM they have DUMPED. HELLO,…..HELLO,….


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            • Covering up (heh) what's already there is a good excuse. But with the crap going out by the thousands of terabecquerels per day, it can hardly be expected to mitigate movement of isotopes coming out in the wash 24-7, so to speak.

              So while it will cover up what's already there, I strongly suspect it's what's coming that is the primary motivation after 11+ months.


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        • HoTaters

          Hey Jec, I just couldn't resist:

          Medicated Goo lyrics
          Pretty Polly Possum what's wrong with you?
          Your body's kind a weak
          and you think there's nothing we can do
          Good Golly Polly shame on you
          Cause Molly made a stew that'll make a newer girl out of you

          So follow me, its good for you
          That good old fashioned Medicated Goo
          Ooo, aint' it good for you?
          My own homegrown recipe'll see you thru


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        • AGreenRoad AGreenRoad

          Remember when #3 exploded and spread nuclear fuel rods in a 1-3 mile radius?

          Guess where a lot of that rod material ended up? THE OCEAN.

          Now they are trying to hide it by burying it in concrete.

          If they don't, this stuff will radiate the ocean FOREVER.

          They will have to go out MUCH further than the little bay that they are messing around with though…

          I forecast heavy and HIGH radiation readings for the future, for anyone measuring radiation in the ocean within 300 miles of Fukushima and downstream of whatever currents there are.


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      • StillJill StillJill

        I know,..isn't Alice a RIOT! :-)


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    • Misitu

      What happens after it got through the concrete base is probably unforeseeable though to keep melting down through rock seems unlikely given that there is still plenty of radiation near the surface. The picture I provided earlier, of the blob either partially or completely through the concrete and baking the subsoil into ceramic might be helpful. I think it is at least as good as the picture of the molten blob heading downwards away from the surface without any intention of stopping.

      The truth is that we cannot know yet and the proposed imaging equipment "has not yet been invented".


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      • They could image by triangulation with neutron and high-end gamma detectors. Probably already have, in fact. Just haven't reported that and won't because it's "none of our business" [sez TEPCO]. Thus I figure they know it's heading for the cliff through fissures in the rock (those don't have to be wide open, just weaker than surrounding rock). Hence the scramble to coat the exit zones in the port and discharge area with 'special' cement/clay. The clay will probably turn to ceramic when corium hits it. No need to tunnel under the plants from the cliff for this underlayment like at Chernobyl. When it gets out the underlayment will be there to 'catch' it and the ocean will serve to fracture and solidify it.

        http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2012/01/fukushima-i-nuke-plant-tepco-to-pour.html

        This article still mentions the steel "bulkhead" they planned to install up against the cliff, but at this point I doubt there's time. Have the new plates even arrived yet?


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        • HoTaters

          JoyB, what kind of material do you think they're using? Or do you mean the clay in the soil will turn to ceramic? Have been wondering all along if it's possible to inject some kind of borosilicate, and if that might have any effect. What do you think?


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          • There are a number of things they could use to make an effective 'cement-clay' mixture. And a borosilicate would be an excellent choice in the cement. The clay can be 'bulked' with vermiculite or some such as well. If the corium exits the cliff into the ocean, it wouldn't be impossible to confine it there, pending bigger isolation projects later.

            The ground is fractured enough that corium contact with groundwater didn't do the big explosions thing (mostly geysers). The corium, like any liquid, will follow the path of least resistance – downhill. In this case, follow the fissures. I'm pretty sure someone at Fukushima has figured this out by now.

            There are three full cores' worth of corium at issue. Unit 2's flows, exiting from the torus, might have gone in a whole different direction. And it's possible that there is no significant corium flow under unit 3 because its core got blown away early on. The port and discharge liner activity is more proactive than we've seen for months, so something's up. The releases are ongoing, so their rationale of covering over what's being released doesn't hold up to scrutiny at this point in the game.


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        • Arizonan Arizonan

          Misitu and Joy,
          Thank you for your comments, I found them very helpful and enlightening. With four reactors/coriums each of unknown mass but in slo-motion, I imagine one blob could be sitting in a heavy vitrified basin, and another could be slipping towards the ocean. Both scenarios make sense to me. Maybe another blob is moving in yet another way….but I like your scenario, Joy, and without being very technologically-savvy, I know people have been able to detect the source and location of ionizing decay products since the late 1800s; it makes a lot of sense that they must have the technology, as you describe, to locate them remotely. Journalists must have asked TEPCO already several times: WHERE are the missing coriums? Right?


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          • Neutrons aren't hard to detect if you've got the equipment. And the calculations to account for scattering aren't that difficult for an engineer. Anything at, in and under Fukushima that's emitting neutrons is or once was nuclear fuel. They've been drilling, and a good seismology outfit can do some soundings and generate a serviceable subsurface map. After 11 months there's no good excuse for not knowing where the corium is.

            Corium in the ground/bedrock that's not threatening massive hydro-steam explosions is not a huge danger at this point. The earth is good shielding, eventually the buildings can be razed and the mess entombed. Corium that gets out of the cliff to the sea will be contained one way or another, best to do it right. Corium that's been blasted into flakes and atomized to cover the planet is… tough sh*t. The biggest immediate and ongoing danger at this point are the spent fuel pools. IMHO.


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  • dharmasyd dharmasyd

    We all here at enenews knew that this was all too true from the get go. It just took far too long for (whatever) to admit what was happening.

    But then I guess it's hard to say…

    "Sorry folks, but you're all gonna die. And for you who
    believe in re-incarnation, 'Better luck next time' for
    those of you who don't??? Well, we apologize!"

    Put a band aide on that and try to pretend they all mean't well.


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    • Alice Alice

      Life would be so much simpler if trusted officials could really be trusted to give 'just the facts, sir/ma'am', wouldn't it?

      All this twisting and turning and distorting until everything is completely warped.

      All this so they won't look foolish. Or lose their comfort zone. Or lose their jobs and homes. Or (fill in the blank)


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      • WindorSolarPlease

        Hi Alice

        Or if they told, they would end up with a baggy around their head.

        Or if the told, they would be belly up in their hot tub.

        Is this the "Or" you were talking about?


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  • So maybe that is the cause of the recent flurry of earthquakes?


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  • Misitu

    So, at bloody* last, at bloody bloody** last, someone has got into that locked cleaner's cupboard and found the Risk Management Manual Volume 2 masquerading as a bunch of loose yellow edged papers.

    Thanks guys. Could have looked earlier.

    * sorry
    ** sorry again


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  • Alice Alice

    They could have been post it notes. Some squirrels like to steal those.


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    • Misitu

      Alice, I am going to check the document again for evidence of glue strips along the top of the other side of the paper ;-)


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    • StillJill StillJill

      That's it Alice,…it was 3M's fault for faulty glue on the back of the post-it notes,….that blew away! Yeah,…that's what their 'meeting minutes' were on too. Darned 3M! (sarc)


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  • mikael

    The revelation is stil at a distance, but closing.
    I am not impresed at all, never mind the Blame Game, a game created to pulverize resposebility and pure distortion of facts.

    We must go beyound that and talk about the facts in relation of the sice and scale, to compare it with Tjernobyl is mindless and a lie.
    Fukushima is a full spectum radiation vulcano. It has everything imaginable and even some I didnt new existed. And I even belived Plutonium is bad, what about those "siculare chaped molucular cellstructured whatever, that stores the shitt inside for milleniums, thats the reality and still, we Talk.

    This drillings sould have started a year ago, the probability for the ground to be far more contaminated is skyhigh, and makes any efort, highly dangerous if even posible at all.
    Just the drainage, when tunneling is mindboggeling in size and scale.
    Just some points to consider, and again, time.
    The clock is tikking.

    And I also belive the whole Nothern Pasific and Amrican hemispher is mutch worse contaminated than admitted. The sudden deaths in Livestock chamuflaged as a "autoimune disorder" alowing Viruset to easy infect its houst. Also sympthomes on Low muti spectrum radioactive poisoning.
    They know it.
    And the utter insult of our inteligence, when the drul about statistics and "pandemics", this is Radioactive poisoning.

    We know and they know, its not about size and/or amount that matters, the moment radiation enters any living creature, it starts to burn, like a higheffect microwave sun. Inside a cell structure.

    The situation is infact so bad that the truth must be revieled.
    Its not about Japan anymore, its about Us.
    And the rest of our living companions, in the Sea, Air and Land.

    “Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.”
    ― Martin Luther King Jr.

    peace


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  • WindorSolarPlease

    Quote: Manual tells you everything except how to stop it

    Do they even really know how to totally shut down a working Nuclear Plant? I doubt it..


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  • arclight arclight

    "Whenever an upper plenum structure is at a temperature below the melting temperature of stainless steel, the oxidation rate is generally predicted to be limited by the reaction kinetics. However, when the structure begins to melt and the oxide layer is carried away with the molten stainless steel (refer to the discussion in Section 7.1.2), the oxidation rate is much higher and is limited only by the availability of steam. If sufficient steam is available, the oxidation heat generation will continue to melt the structure without any outside heat sources.

    7.1.5 Hydrodynamic Interface

    The interface logic controls infor….."

    from the report… well that puts the cat amongst the pigeons!! seawater anyone? did notice a cool formula or 2 that work out water interaction with the corium or "extremely,very slumped err fuel rods! ;/


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    • arclight arclight

      Figure 8-8. Schematic drawing of oxidic and metallic pools in the lower head.

      WOW!


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      • Bobby1

        There are photos of concrete chunks outside of unit 3, that are colored red. This is, they are covered with rust. That is evidence that these chunks passed through a metallic pool of molten iron, which had been from the steel in the reactor.

        Also that stratified oxide pool is where strontium-90 and isotopes like it get released.


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        • arclight arclight

          it also includes equations for core plugging… and the interesting thing there is that earthquakes might upset the coreplug and… ??

          notice this did not mention MOX fuel.. so went to a candu document and discovered that plutonium might greatly increase erosion and heat outputs

          http://www.nuceng.ca/ep714/sept2009/Chapter%207%20-%20Accident%20Analysis.pdf

          and heres the concern foor iodine release at the bottom of the nuceng doc

          "Basically the former category of accidents has
          been split into two, with the more frequent category having a lower dose acceptance criterion.
          Note also that there are no longer dose limits for iodine-131 and for collective dose. However the
          safety goals (see Chapter 6) address societal effects.
          Dual failures are not treated as a separate class, but are included in the broader category of
          Beyond Design Basis Accidents, a subcategory of which are severe core damage accidents.
          Neither BDBAs nor severe accidents have dose acceptance criteria, but instead are limited by the
          safety goals, which give objectives and limits to their frequency and consequences (releases of
          key radiouclides)."

          very interesting as it talks of emmissions on 3 levels.. the first 2 allow up to a 20mSv dose with no time value..

          interesting issue about tritium residue left in the reactor when seommissioned..


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          • StillJill StillJill

            I hope you are feeling better arc,….you had me worried the other day.

            Stay safe, K? :-)


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          • Bobby1

            A BDBA does not have dose acceptance criteria. Why then do we keep hearing that "inconsequential" or "safe" dose of radiation moved across the northern hemisphere?

            I still think it might have been really TMOX in the reactor instead of MOX. TMOX has 16% plutonium, vs. 6% for regular MOX.


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            • arclight arclight

              hi stilljill

              on the tail end now… thanks :)

              just recharging…

              @bobby

              cant believe they didnt do a manual for the mox or tmox type reactors… theres one around somewhere! we will find it!! :/


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  • stopnp stopnp

    What a lovely industry


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  • cnsrndctzn cnsrndctzn

    So I guess there is no longer any mystery to all the steam/smoke we saw yesterday coming from the ground, many had figured this anyway.

    As someone mentioned above, if the corium melts through concrete at a couple inches per hour, it probably melts through the underlying sedimentary rock at Fukushima faster. If you say even double the rate it would be down say about 2800 ft. At least this far down any hydrovolcanic explosions will be contained underground.

    I'm curious about what people think about these cores deep down in the underlying rock, if there is an hydrovolcanic explosion underground, will it disperse the core and allow it to cool off and sit at some level and contaminate the groundwater forever or will the core stay basically intact and just melt through the whole lithosphere to the mantle.


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  • jec jec

    2 inches an hour–Volcano lava is probably similar to these Corium GOOY blob. And the CRUSTs likely very sensative to earthquakes, after the 2 inches an hour, or 1420 feet possible for location of corium, its running out of COLD upper surface materials. Right now they better start looking at volcanic models..volcanos with active lava flows..its probably close to the same for crust development. Only thing is..lava is not as deadly as this radioactive hell which has formed.


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    • James2

      From an airborne perspective 1420 feet deep is probably a better place for wide open hot nuke fuel to be.

      However the problem here is that it is most certainly releasing all it's radiation into the water supply.

      So Japan's water supply is going to slowly get more and more radioactive.

      Nuclear fuel not only creates cancer in our cells – it creates cancer of our environment – Slowly creeping larger and larger for hundreds of thousands of years.


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      • Sickputer

        Mostly surface drinking water in Japan and few large interconnecting aquifers. The fresh water sources will all get contaminated by air emissions over time that runoff from the mountains during the spring thaws. Tokyo's public drinking water will be far worse by summertime.

        The directional underground flow at the plant should be slightly downhill and seaward so I predict lateral movement through earthquake fissures of the multiple coriums (could be many more than just 3 if the seven huge spent fuel ponds melted down along with the fissile fuel masses in Units 1-3 and 5-6). They say 5 and 6 is fine, but their lies on so many topics makes everyone suspicious of their statements.

        This possible lateral and downward movement of the meltdowns is going to present some new surprises in the coming months and years even if a followup big earthquake does not happen near term.


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        • BillyRaz

          But didnt Sum bozo from Tepco admit recently that they almost lost Daiiani dang thats spelled rong but the just the next plant up the street? And are not 5 and 6 under tons of water and even seawater when the sunami came in and shot up all those intake pipes??


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        • HoTaters

          Question to ponder, and I think some here have a good idea of what's actually there:

          What's the geologic strata like underlying the plant? Is is permeable (large amount of sand and silica) or relatively impermeable, like clay? How did it behave after the initial quake, and has it fractured over time due to aftershocks?

          The behavior of the soil and rocks will help clarify what the coriums may do underground, and how they might behave.

          What will the goo do?


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          • HoTaters

            That is, clay particles bind very tightly together w/o much space between them, unless they are in an aggregate with larger particles, or other inclusions.


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          • Misitu

            It's mudstone with sandy intercalations (lenses), mudstone being kind of half way between clay and shale. About 800ft thick IIRC. Below I think is granites but am too lazy to go back and look right now. Japan Geological Survey has a nice seamless zoomable integrated map (I put the link up here months ago).

            More or less, very very compacted mud almost rock. Not very porous in itself but susceptible to cracks near the surface.

            As some of this stuff is "sandy mudstones ranging through to muddy sandstones", the sand content would tend towards more water bearing capacity, but the effect would necessarily be limited by the shape and extent of the sandy portions.

            Finally, remember that F-1 sits on an excavated platform only a few metres above sea level. Saturated soil/subsoil is not far below, or in the case of the turbine hall basement [you can see where /that/ is going], for my money which is worth not much, contact has already been made between damp ground and the devil's porridge. Which is not to say this is by any means the end of the story.

            M.


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        • AGreenRoad AGreenRoad

          Anyone have pictures of what the underground strata looks like?

          Is it all flat layers, horizontally arranged?

          Or is it diagonal layers, slanted either inland or towards the ocean?

          This is all of the work that these nuke experts should be doing internationally, instead of making up fairy tales about how this is only 10% of Chernobyl and in 'cold shutdown'..

          Fukushima; Is It REALLY In 'Cold Shutdown'? Plus; What Is The Rest Of The Story?
          http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=1693739515355388462#editor/target=post;postID=3792127409596329382
          Via A Green Road Blog
          http://agreenroad.blogspot.com/


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  • Sickputer

    OK.. Let's stay focused… Interesting as it is to speculate about other issues and possible future disasters… Move the Iran topic to General Discussion and I will add some followup information.

    Now as to old Chuck our manual-scouring NRC guy ( who probably will read this ten minutes after I post) >;->

    Chuck is a featured interviewee towards the end of the BBC video narrated by Rupert Graves. If you didn't see that one hour video available online then give it look to put a face to the NRC guys. He seems pretty straight forward and once he retires he might make a pretty good advocate for the anti-nuke forces. But the pay is not so good on our side and we know man does not live by strontium alone.

    On my phone and I don't easily have access to the link for the BBC film, but Google Inside the Meltdown BBC

    Just the singular term "meltdown" instead of the plural gives a clue to the secret agenda of this Big Brother production. The concrete slab underneath the "meltdown" miraculously holds off the burning core at the end of the documentary. Woohoo! We are all saved by the heroes who built and maintain the very safe nuclear power plants! Green electricity too cheap to meter!


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  • Mack Mack

    The biggest catastrophe for all mankind is that they opened the atom before they knew how to close it.


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  • cnsrndctzn cnsrndctzn

    See the latest post by Mochizuki, this steam/smoke is really thick, what a mess, these steam/smoke outputs seem to be getting worse.

    http://fukushima-diary.com/2012/03/reactor-buildings-are-hidden-by-thick-smoke/


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  • James2

    That smoke did not come from 1,2,3 or 4.

    That smoke came down from the north. It had to come from 5 or 6.


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    • cnsrndctzn cnsrndctzn

      Really? That is frightening! Why do you think that, how can you tell?


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      • James2

        Just look at the video. It comes from behind the camera and passes directly down over 1-4 .

        Units 5 and 6 are roughly behind the Tepcocam camera and off to the left. They would like for us to forget about them – because they had intentions of restarting them at some point.


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      • HoTaters

        OK, but it is raining there today. How much is smoke, and how much is mist from the storm, and rain?


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  • Mothercares

    Thank you all who post here. It helps to know and I cannot help myself by coming here. My knowledge is mechanics, so bear with me if I make "stupid" inquiries. Lets assume the matter is in the ocean (i know its there-eitherway), could we not capture/contain it through a recycle cylinder flow device, since the matter would I assume keep moving. There has to be enough metal containment pieces to start somewhere, attach it to a pump system or have gravity flowing-which would keep a rotation style system going until some other answer comes along. The materials are there, due to the massive explosions-recycle them – I don't know, I just assume it has to move in some direction. What do you think or am I just babbling….


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  • Lacsap Lacsap

    No one can cool down a molten core (with anything) that is how hot a molten core is. You can cool it only a bit. What Japan is facing is china syndrom. I told long ago MarkI reactor cannot keep in molten core, it is now long gone deep in the earth. many time there where massive steam clouds around the reactors, that is the part where a core reacts with groundwater etc.


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    • James2

      Lacsap – from what I've seen it has nothing to do with the model number of the reactor. There is nothing on earth that could contain a nuke reactor that is in full meltdown. You could design the Mark 77 and get the same result.

      There may indeed be systems that are better able to prevent a meltdown, but once it runs away, all you can do is stand there and watch it burn.


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      • Lacsap Lacsap

        The Mark I does not have a corecatcher and there is the big problem, Mark I is a 1st generation BWR: BWR/1. I don't know yet from other models which came out later if they have one but fur sure the new type of reactors (planned to build) have corecatchers and other extra safety features in case of a meltdown.


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    • Arizonan Arizonan

      Lacsap,

      Yes, several people here are looking in the direction of much, much further underground. One person above said 'no, the reactors can't be that far down, because they are still getting high radiation readings near the old containment structures'. I wonder if both things couldn't be true at the same time? Let's assume you are right, and the lab manual calculation is right. That puts them somewhere between 1000-1400 ft below the concrete. The high radiation readings left behind could be accounted for by bits of fuel melt having been plastered all over hell by the explosion, correct? So couldn't both things be true?


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      • Lacsap Lacsap

        Even with everything blown out and melted down a reactor remains highly radioactive for many years, that is why the russians (had to) build a sarcophagus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_Nuclear_Power_Plant_sarcophagus around the Chernobyl reactor. At Japan they are just waiting till everything is gone by air or into the ground and call it later a victory when their country is so poluted that they all will suffer the effect of their nuclear disaster.

        Chernobyl: 1. After disaster they dug a tunnel under the reactor and installed a corecatcher.

        2. They cleaned up de debris fast as posible.

        3. They closed the reactor with a sarcophagus.

        Japan: 1. hmmm damnit

        2. Let's see what we can do.

        3. Hmmm very high containment let's hide al numbers for public.

        4. Well let's give reactor 1 a tent so it looks better to the public and vent the radioactivity of R1 in to the air which sounds much better then leaving it this way.

        5. Just let the cores melt down we are to late to dig a tunnel to catch a core and it's to expensive also.

        6. Wait for a Karas to save us al http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karas_%28anime%29


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  • Mothercares

    And now its the End of Days. I HOPE that is not the case. I get the hotter than hell thing. However, is there not one metal on Earth, meteor material, vocanic substance, diamonds, that could possibly retract the flow.


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  • Mothercares

    Containment is needed-forgot to add


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    • James2

      Nope nothing. Actually containment is a waste of money. You might as well run them in wide open space – that way there's no hiding what the result will be if it melts down.


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  • drjamerica

    well the lies just keep getting less intelligent by the day! im not a geologist but if the are built on a hill it would seem the core would melt the easiest materials first example sand or dirt on top of hard rock and then being a gelatinous material it would run down hill on top of the hard rock melting softer materials assisted by gravity heading towards the water or were ever the harder rock hill surface faces. lets hope thats not the sea were they are dumping the concrete or reactors 5 and 6 that will just make it hotter!! may any and all gods help us because this is beyond human repair!


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    • HoTaters

      Yep, gravity is gravity, and it does what it does!


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    • Misitu

      Sadly, it was /going/ to be built on a hill, but they wanted a better cost/profit profile so they excavated the hill away – to reduce the cost of pumping cooling water up 35 metres of hill – and created a nice flat platform about 4 metres above sea level.[There is some mention that there might also be some landfill out towards the harbour area, but that is uncorroborated]. And of course the turbine halls have to have a basement and guess how far above sea level that is? Nope. "Below" is the word. There are diagrams out there. I'm a bit tired right now but have put this stuff up here once or twice before.

      Don't worry! The devil's porridge, if it's burnt through – which is suggested by the term melt-through that was bandied about a month or three back – is already having fruitful conversations with soggy subsoil (or soggy mudstone).

      Yes, they SHOULD be pointing directional neutron antenna down there just to try and get a shape on it.

      Bests,
      M.


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  • drjamerica

    can u dilute a core by adding a nonreactive to the molten mass?? its a little late now just wanted to know


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    • James2

      First, there's no way to get close enough to it to do anything. Even the Robots fail when you get in the vicinity of a meltdown.

      Then there's no way to stir in anything – I don't know – maybe there's some kind of magnetic stirring system or something.


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  • PattieB PattieB

    I been telling you folks this for months now…

    http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=ja&to=en&a=http://hamanora.blog.ocn.ne.jp/kaiin02/2011/06/post_8986.html

    There's a sounding and map in this report with where the corium is sitting… But everyone thinks I'm full of BS until it hit's the news. :-(


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  • Mothercares

    Sorry PattieB, I don't think so, BS comes in many shapes and size's and In this case, it is what it is. The link is greatly appreciated and I will go back to review more.


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  • JenMom JenMom

    It does at times feel unreal. Watching as good science is tossed into the garbage while science supporting our whatever prevailing fad is embraced is hard to witness. I many times read of people feeling isolated in the ignorance of others about this disaster. I firmly believe ignorance is bliss in this situation. I have been following these discussions for countless hours and what I have come to terms with is that nobody really knows what is going to happen next. Or if they do they fear upsetting the rest of humanity. I feel as though I am a watcher. I have now read more about the adverse effects of radiation and truly fear for the continuation of our species as well as our fellow species. I see no need to blast those around me with warnings as we truly are completely helpless to stop what was begun in the 1930's. We become sicker generation after generation and forget what humanity once was. Horrible as it sounds this very well could be our future and the die was cast before many of us were even born. So I say celebrate the life we have, stay informed and hope for a future that resolves these issues before our decline has become so great that we lose our very humanity. These revelations are nothing new. For us who have been following this disaster from day one . You begin to see a pattern. Scare us, discredit us even if our word are never completely silenced. For I know I will carry the scar of this disaster in my heart as a truly human individual until my last breath on this earth. The humanity of extinction.


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    • Kevin Kevin

      Well this is an accurate observation, the intent is not to blast people out of ignorance into fear of a situation for which they are helpless. The notion is to have a credible assessment of the facts in order to end nuclear power.

      Even if you are driving over the cliff no need to step on the accelerator but rather apply the breaks.


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    • StillJill StillJill

      Very beautiful JenMom!

      You are the salt of the earth–to be sure! :-)


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    • Arizonan Arizonan

      Beautiful writing. I guess I have finally come to some similar place, after reading and commenting here for a year. Most people do not want to know what is really happening at Fukushima; and, if they do, all I can tell them is that there is nothing anyone can do. I begin to believe that since nothing can be done, perhaps a little ignorance will enable people to enjoy the time we have here. I will certainly also carry the scar of this disaster in my heart until I die; but do I want to impose that on others? Generation after generation of humanity have and will carry it; may we not go entirely silently into that abyss, however.


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    • PoorDaddy PoorDaddy

      Understood Jen.
      For the sake of my sanity, I walk away from enenews, and Fukushima every so often. I spend time in the mountains and try to keep all this radioactive nightmare knowledge I've picked up as far at bay as I can. I always return. I want to know what's biting me on the ass and I want a shot, however small, at biting the bastards back.


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  • PattieB PattieB

    The thing is… and they don't enter this as a factor…

    http://www.seafriends.org.nz/oceano/seawater.htm#composition

    And it adds even more dimentions to the equation by them adding SALT WATER to this mess. It sends off gasses… yes. But, the sodium also acts as a thermal coating… if you will. This makes it hold or condence the heat to the center of mass… allowing for faster movement and add the fact that a number of the rods were plutonium-239_70% plutonium-240 & 241_30% in complete assemblies adds not only to the toxisity, but to the heat generated… as plutonium runs at an even higher temprature when unmoderated.
    There was also noted an underground nuclear criticality blast much like what happened to the pool, only pointed mostly down… it was effectively a fizzle due to the amount of PU-240 present as well. This was one minute short of 24 hrs after the pool exploded. The thought is that's when it hit the water table. That generated not only hydrogen, but it's passage created methane. Due to connection to building #4.. it is what caused it's extensive lower level damage… and what sparked it's ignition.


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    • aigeezer aigeezer

      Thanks, InfoPest. Those are well worth a look. The first cluster, from the recent bus tour all say "tsunami-crippled".

      The second cluster, allegedly from February 28, all say "stricken".

      Was there another media photo op on February 28?

      I was surprised to see so many workers at #4, but none visible at #2.


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  • moonshellblue moonshellblue

    The things we knew from the beginning, the cores melted, Reactor 3 was blown sky high and I don't think there is a spent fuel pool, Dani is still standing on shaky ground and perhaps had partial meltdowns., There have been numerous criticality's and I imagine the coriums crack open and thus we see steam rinsing between the reactors as the three little suns burn and churn through bedrock and hit veins of water from the massive amounts they have been injecting. I really don't think anything can be done at this juncture and hopefully at some point decay will kick in but as long as the corium keeps restarting, rather going critical it's like we are starting at day one? Al least that is my understanding.


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  • pif

    "What is under the cement barrier? Dirt? Rock? "

    @ hobbleknee

    Answer : http://fukushima.over-blog.fr/article-the-geology-of-fukushima-88575278.html


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