Top US nuke official in Japan: Take it slow “without just running the military in there to kill people” for us to feel better — Wait so it’s “without a lot of loss of life” — 300 millisieverts per hour OUTSIDE reactors before bulldozing ‘rubble’

Published: March 5th, 2012 at 9:26 am ET
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Continued from: "There is spent fuel and pellets and whatever all over the place around the plant" -NRC's Top Man in Japan -- Trying to clean it up, but dose still going to be incredible

Title: Nuclear Regulatory Commission’s Fukushima Transcripts
Date: March 17, 2011
Emphasis Added

CASTO: [...] Now, what they’re doing is they have bulldozers — I mean, the dose sounds like not as much a shine from the building as when the building blew up. There is spent fuel and pellets and whatever all over the place around the plant. So they are taking the bulldozers through and pushing the rubble in piles, and they are saying that’s cutting the dose down, you know, 60, 70 percent.

So they are trying to — in these areas where the piping runs would go, they are trying to clean it up. But, I mean, the dose is still going to be, you know, incredible. I mean, they were talking yesterday, they said the resources they have were somewhere between 2- to 300 people, and that, you know, TEPCO and other licensees, the Civil Defense Force and some — some police.

[REDACTED]

[...]

MALE PARTICIPANT: I don’t know. They asked us how we deal with extending dose, and we just told them for emergencies and a condition like this, we have guidelines that let us go to a certain limit. But in this case, you need to do what you need to do to get it done.

MALE PARTICIPANT: We saw some media reports yesterday that said that they were — they had authorized going to 25 rem.

MALE PARTICIPANT: Yeah. Obviously, they need more — they need more people to spread that around, so that people aren’t getting in excess of 25 rem.

MR. CASTO: And they — you know, not just for the pool cooling, but they talked about our personnel to, you know, be embedded with their personnel. And they said no. I mean –

MALE PARTICIPANT: Thank you, John.

MR. CASTO: — you know, we’re not going to do that.

MR. VIRGILIO: Yeah, right, right. I mean, but that’s — then, they need to get out and recruit more than the 2- to 300 people they have.

[...]MR. CASTO: It got the MOD’s attention and they called us in and we had the big meetings, but — but, you know, nevertheless, I mean, they’ve still got, you know, people to worry about, and they have a huge crisis up there in terms of, you know, all the things from, you know, hazardous material, deaths, all that that they’re trying to deal with with their military. you know, so do you — you know, so it’s a terrible situation, and you evacuate, you keep people safe, and then we address this problem methodically, you know, without — because it is probably already at its worst-case scenario, and maybe stable. You know, if there are rubble beds in there in the spent fuel pool, right now there is — it doesn’t seem to be getting worse. So it’s — you know, it’s stable with regard to — whatever the rubble bed is, we’re not getting zirconium fires that we can tell or, you know, anything — it’s always –

MALE PARTICIPANT: Right.

MR. CASTO: It’s stable where it’s at, so, you know, you get the people away, and then, now, okay, let’s methodically, you know, without just running the military in there to kill people, just to, you know, make us feel like we’re solving the problem, you know, so we’re — you’ve got to kind of take it slowly. You know, let’s get the people out of the way. Now, let’s, you know, methodically go through this and, you know, without a lot of loss of life.

[...]

JOHN: [...] they gave us the dose rates of, what, 20 to 30 rem per hour [...] they said, you know, the dose rates go down 70 percent when they bulldoze [...]

Published: March 5th, 2012 at 9:26 am ET
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61 comments to Top US nuke official in Japan: Take it slow “without just running the military in there to kill people” for us to feel better — Wait so it’s “without a lot of loss of life” — 300 millisieverts per hour OUTSIDE reactors before bulldozing ‘rubble’

  • Sickputer

    A couple of days working around 20 Rem dosage gives about a 50% mortality rate:

    http://www.physics.isu.edu/radinf/risk.htm

    The Russians had some quick losses from the kamikaze helicopter crews mainly because there was no choice… Not enough substitute pilots or aircraft.

    Fukushima is different in that there should be a large labor pool of heavy equipment land vehicle operators as compared to pilots. I say "should" but they really haven't built a labor army like the Russians. Different culture and different assessments of the radiation dangers to the public. The Japanese elite don't seem to have the same fears as the Russian elite.

    Until they decide to devote an army the radiation is going to win every battle. That is the best way I can describe the situation.


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  • LetThemEatYellowCake LetThemEatYellowCake

    MR. CASTO: It got the MOD's attention and they called us in and we had the big meetings, but nevertheless, they've still got people to worry about, and they have a huge crisis up there in terms of all the things from hazardous material, deaths, all that that they're trying to deal with with their military. so it's a terrible situation, and you evacuate, you keep people safe, and then we address this problem methodically without — because it is probably already at its worst-case scenario, and maybe stable. If there are rubble beds in there in the spent fuel pool, right now there is — it doesn't seem to be getting worse. So it's stable with regard to — whatever the rubble bed is, we're not getting zirconium fires that we can tell or anything — it's always –

    MALE PARTICIPANT: Right.

    MR. CASTO: It's stable where it's at, so you get the people away, and then, now, okay, let's methodically without just running the military in there to kill people, just to make us feel like we're solving the problem so we're — you've got to kind of take it slowly. Let's get the people out of the way. Now, let's methodically go through this and without a lot of loss of life.
    —————

    omg


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  • or-well

    I've worked with high school dropouts who could speak far more coherently than these folks.

    In all these releases that consistently surprises me more than just about anything else coming from them.

    I know conversational flow is far more flexible than written language, but these folks are almost incoherent at times.

    You know?

    It's as if they have the mind-controller speech-spin chip cranked up to 11 even among colleagues.

    These are supposedly reasonably educated people, and part of their job is communication !


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      • or-well

        plusgood pre-fix
        ungood re-do
        goodspeak wordtricks
        newspeak voodoo


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        • aigeezer aigeezer

          Hey or-well – did you seem majia's conference powerpoint presentation yet? Some of your work is immortalized there, slide 37, for instance.

          http://www.powershow.com/view/3813de-MmI2M/Lessons_of_Fukushima_Powerpoint_Majia_Nadesan_flash_ppt_presentation


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          • or-well

            aig, I saw that just this a.m.
            I am astonished!
            But what I said is not original, just rephrased.
            We're well bunked.
            Life, Liberty & the pursuit of Bunkdom.
            Peace, Order and Good Bunkerment.
            No Child Left unbunked.
            Yes We Bunk!
            Bunk-licans & Bunk-ocrats
            in Canada:
            Con-bunk-ertives, Bunk-erals, New Bunk-eratic Party.
            robo-signed home bunkages
            financial bunkouts
            International Bunketary Fund
            International Atomic Energy Bunkery
            World Health Obunkanisation
            Nuclear Bunklatory Cobunksion
            I'm going nuts.

            Ever heard this?
            "Originality is the art of hiding your sources."


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            • aigeezer aigeezer

              "Originality is the art of hiding your sources." Cool – where'd ya get it? ;-)

              Taleb has a version of that in his "Bed of Procrustes" book of aphorisms:

              "Writing is the art of repeating oneself without anyone noticing". (p 43)

              Since this thread is nominally about Casto-san's misadventures, here's a possibly relevant quote from Taleb:

              "It seems that it is the most unsuccessful people who give the most advice…." (p 33)


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    • Even in written inter-office communications a high level of euphemism and tap-dancing was in evidence, specifically (warnings were issued) in regards to their knowledge that it would all be released at some point per FOIA.

      What is just as easy to see is that all of these people know exactly what the euphemisms are and refer to, and precisely what all the steps in the dance mean. It's "speaking in code," and they're pretty good at it since they all seem to understand each other even when they cut each other off from going into any greater detail or offering plain-talk clarifications.


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      • Kevin Kevin

        Yes Exactly JoyB.

        I hav been around the table with agencies and "high level" meetings… lol …. alot of cryptic head grade 3 language, built on inferences and head bobbing.

        Yeah, the cut offs are great eh?

        Mr Jerk off: Well ya know the ummm, well,the the dose, is ummm…..

        Male participant: Yes, well we know that it can come from shine… water shine, ground shine….. so they bulldoze it and its 70% better. Soil shield into eternity. Just a big hole at the end of the parking lot, then roll in the riot trucks and let em loose.


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  • lam335 lam335

    re: "There is spent fuel and pellets and whatever all over the place around the plant."

    Given this statement, how plausible is the NRC's claim that it was the reactor itself, and not the spent fuel pool that blew up? They seem to know that these are "spent" fuel rods (not that it makes much difference, they're filled with plutonium either way).


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  • AFTERSHOCK AFTERSHOCK

    Read deep and take it all in. The truth is glaringly in black-and-white for all (that has the stomach) to see! The MSM black-out wasn't just some policy decision that was dusted-off in response to such an event. They – had – to cover this up! It's now obvious, this was "…already at its worst-case scenario…". They're running scared now. Question is, where ya gonna run now boys?!


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    • Anthony Anthony

      Exactly and in twelve months (or less) they will remind us they DID advise us of this already.


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    • HoTaters HoTaters

      Yes, and they can't backpedal and make admissions because then they would "lose face" or their reputations would be on the line, as we say here in the West.

      Well, it's been clear to most of us here the Emperor has been running around naked for a long time.


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  • BreadAndButter BreadAndButter

    [REDACTED]


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  • aigeezer aigeezer

    Here's an alternative depiction of Casto in Father Knows Best mode, even speaking in complete sentences:

    http://blogs.wsj.com/japanrealtime/2012/02/22/u-s-nuke-official-this-is-too-big-for-tepco/


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    • HoTaters HoTaters

      I think Mr. Castro may be the fellow in the NRC transcript discussing pressure well defects in BWR's (?) where several of them have failed in the past 5-6 years. Every time the discussion gets to a crucial point, Mr. Castro quits his train of thought (he's ususally interrupted, on cue?) and says, "RIGHT."

      IMHO he's a piece of work.


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      • HoTaters HoTaters

        "RIGHT" without further elaboration. Fill in the blanks. "She was a real hottie." And then he reached down and "RIGHT." It wasn't because they, I mean, you know, "RIGHT."


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        • aigeezer aigeezer

          Wow, your comment takes me back to a long-ago linguistics class in which a prof was claiming that, while words can often have several meanings, it is never the case that a word means the exact opposite of its usual meaning. Some wise guy student loudly said "RIIIIGHT" with a falling inflection – meaning the exact opposite of "right". The class broke out laughing, and the prof had to admit his blunder.

          Bottom line: we have no idea of the inflections that went with these dry transcript words or of any extralinguistic coughs, groans, mutters, gasps, shushings, and so forth.

          Expletive deleted!


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      • aigeezer aigeezer

        Minor point – it's "Casto" (no R) – makes him easy to search for.


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        • HoTaters HoTaters

          Oh, my mistake! Read an entire transcript where he provided the bulk of the info. and thought it was one of the biggest planned dis-info. transcripts I've ever read.

          Interesting you'd comment on the grunts, mutters, gasps, etc. There are a lot of them in the recordings from the NRC. Thought I heard someone start whistling in the recording where the NRC group is discussing getting the independent lab to "just stop it" and quit pushing to test the level of Fuku-fallout. Heard it over and over and was wondering why someone would do that. Certainly not out of boredom!

          RE: the typo, that's what happens when I try to read the extra small print on the laptop w/o magnification!


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  • StillJill StillJill

    Can someone please explain to me what they meant by, "sending military in to kill people"? Thanks


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    • or-well

      StillJill, seems like verbal slop meaning avoiding a casualty causing hasty response that wouldn't achieve much just to look like they were doing something.
      That's what I got from the context it was used in.


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      • I agree. Without some level of control and coordination, volunteers (and many were volunteering early on) were just going to end up prematurely dead. And a bunch of brave volunteers reduced to wretching skeletons quickly dying from the inside out isn't exactly a patriotism-inducing spectacle.


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        • aigeezer aigeezer

          It's also a way of saying "we have no idea what to do, so let's think before we act", which was probably good advice at the time.

          I'm reminded that in an earlier transcript they were complaining that the manual told them everything except what to do if a reactor blew up.

          Hey everyone – good to see nobody unfairly exploited the other possible interpretation of the words used. I'll bet someone does in msm sooner or later – it's low-hanging fruit for a propagandist.


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    • Anthony Anthony

      They are saying to NOT send in people literally sacrificing their lives against the lethal radiation. They consciously chose to let the radiation dissipate and rototiller-ed it too in order to lessen the dose before they started to handle it. They are saying they chose to attack the problem without needlessly causing people like the military to accrue deaths while handling the problem and clean up.


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      • Kevin Kevin

        Very succinct, and as another poster says good advice at the time.

        But, unfortunately not as altruistic as we would hope.

        Ultimately it reflects an intimate knowledge of the helpless circumstance they were in, and while it is noble to not put people needlessly at risk in order to simply appear as if they are responding effecitively, they did it in order for them to state "not one death related to the npp disaster" mantra they have since bellowed through the echo chamber of mainstream media and its supporting message machine.

        The fact is, the bulldozing of the spent fuel is no fix and the subsequent misinformation campaign has saved the ass of nuclear power, and the "no loss of life" mantra has been central to that effort.

        It was a classic save our ass move, not an ultruistic save the people notion.


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    • HoTaters HoTaters

      Hmmn, got the impression they meant everyone should show restraint, as it was a very tense situation. I thought the comment about people dying was referring to the tsunami and earthquake-related deaths.

      Most people know the police and military can get "trigger happy" in some situations, when the situation is very tense. Despite their good training.


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  • StillJill StillJill

    Thanks,….I was taking it weird I suppose. I appreciate the balance and reasonings,….I believe you are right,…they did use cool heads in this.


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  • dear jones

    @stillJill
    "sending military in to kill people"?
    Which mean they keep the military and let other people to dead so that they have military to keep people to "Cool Shut Down".


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  • madmax madmax

    @moonshellbell, i'm in the same vicinity as you. i drive by TMI every week. anyone have any geiger counter brand/model suggestions? i wanna weigh all my options before i buy. thanks!


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  • madmax madmax

    whoops! meant MOONSHELLBLUE…haha, sorry!


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