TV: Workers say ground under Fukushima plant is cracking and radioactive steam is coming up — Melted core may be moving out of building (VIDEO)

Published: August 17th, 2011 at 11:34 am ET
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Cracked Fukushima: Radioactive steam escapes danger zone, RT, August 17, 2011:

Host: “Workers at Japan’s Fukushima plant say the ground underneath the facility is cracking and radioactive steam is escaping through the cracks” [...]

Dr. Robert Jacobs, Hiroshima Peace Institute: “It’s a very serious and alarming development because this started to happen specifically after two large earthquakes in the last few weeks, there was a 6.4 on the 31 of July 31 and a 6.0 on August 12″ [...]

“It’s an indication that radioactive material is moving under the ground” [...]

“When you have a fragile structure that’s already suffered a great deal of damage and when you have continual aftershocks at the level of six-point, or there’s been some even higher, what we have now is we have the radioactive core that has melted down into the basement, into the bottom of the containment vessel of these reactors, and if the radiation level is going down, where it’s been monitored inside the buildings, and if the water pressure is going down, and the temperature is going down, it’s not that the radiation is just suddenly going away, it means that the radioactive material, the melted core, is simply moving further away from where it’s been measured. And it may have — as a result of these aftershocks — be moving down out of the building itself.” [....]

Breaking News: #Fukushima splashing steam from the cracks in the ground, Fukushima Diary by Mochizuki, August 15, 2011:

In early August, an actual Fukushima worker emailed to his friend

“A lot of the cracks came up in the ground,massive steam is coming up from there.It’s too smoggy here,can’t see a thing.It seems like nuclear reaction is happening underground.Now we are evacuating.Watch out for the direction of wind.”

Whistle-blower in the gov’t

“I’ve heard that steam is coming up from the cracks in the ground.We are afraid of it.”

Another Fukushima worker

“Near the reactors,there are a lot of the cracks in the ground,steam splashed out from there sometimes.and we have detected 10Sv/h at 6 places unlike gov’s announcement.”

h/t Anne, Anonymous tips

UPDATE: Report: Gov’t source says “I’ve heard about the steam coming out from the ground, and I am concerned” — “Some kind of reaction may be occurring underground” writes plant worker

Published: August 17th, 2011 at 11:34 am ET
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109 comments

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109 comments to TV: Workers say ground under Fukushima plant is cracking and radioactive steam is coming up — Melted core may be moving out of building (VIDEO)

  • What does this mean? What happens when the corium “leaves the building”???

    I think we’ve ascertained that there is no water table under the building, correct?

    How far does the corium go?

    Is it a blog or is it all dispersed?

    I agree that Gundreson’s pancake theory is probably wrong…


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    • Whoopie Whoopie

      You meant BLOB. Great questions majia. I dont know what it means.


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    • theypoisonus

      majia,

      I seem to remember reading somewhere in a Japanese publication within the last couple of days that there IS water under the plant, and I don’t mean sea water, either.

      If I were more organized ( DUH ) I would have all this stuff saved, but I’m not. :(
      sorry.

      It may have been Manachi , I just can’t remember. Head injuries are gobs of fun, you remember spiirts of stuff, but not whole stuff. :(


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      • selfsovereign

        70 TONS OF GROUNDWATER SEEPS INTO COMMON SPENT FUEL POOL BASEMENT

        They claim its not highly radioactive, but instead an unexplainable(HA!) rise in the groundwater table. Record breaking rainfall tends to raise the table a wee bit.

        See at savechild.net use a translator.
        For me its best to run 2 pages with both google and microsoft translators running, for a confirming comparative.

        I’m just really worried the pumps will quit and 600,000 + fuel rods, from over 6,000 fuel assemblies, will burn.

        Major praise to the insightful slueths who have been SCREAMING corrium migration for months! Not many left on this rock with your impressive critical thinking skills. Nice


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      • lam335 lam335

        I saw a great documentary on Chernobyl in which they mentioned that water had collected under the reactor from efforts to put the fire out, and they were concerned that if the radioactive magma made its way to that pool of water, it could trigger a devastating steam explosion directly underneath the reactor (see 0:32 to 0:34 on the following video for diagrams–it’s called The Battle of Chernobyl). http://www.infiniteunknown.net/2011/06/17/the-battle-of-chernobyl-documentary-hq/

        I have no idea if a similar thing could happen at FUK, but they certainly seem to have a lot of water around and underneath their reactors and the molten core must still be extremely hot (in terms of temperature).


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      • I keep reading contradictory reports of what actually is under the plant…

        This is really unbelievable.

        It is like a Hollywood disaster film except for there are no mega heroes to save the day

        (though there are many “small” scale heroes who are giving their lives working at the plant, speaking up and helping evacuees, animals, etc.)

        It is like having a death star on the surface of the earth…


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      • Nukeholio

        You had a head injury? Me too…28 years ago…got hit by a car!


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    • lam335 lam335

      Once the reactors have spewed and leaked out ALL of their melted fuel into the surrounding environment, TEPCO will take measurements of the empty reactor vessel and declare triumphantly that they have brought it to a cold shutdown and it is no longer releasing radioactive material. The fact that there is no more left to spew because it has already released the maximum amount of stuff possible will simply be ignored.


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    • Sickputer

      Maija types:

      >What does this mean? What happens when the corium “leaves the building”???

      SP: It means the predictions are going true for the Japanese scientist who first uttered the words “terrible reality” back on July 9:

      http://enenews.com/worse-than-melt-through-a-melt-out-see-graphic

      The steam vents will increase and possibly become so dangerous no humans will be able to work at the plant.

      Maija: I think we’ve ascertained that there is no water table under the building, correct?

      Old reasearch said yes, newer says fissures in mudstone and granite layers could contain significant water. There is already enough water from fire hoses and the typhoon that it doesn’t matter…there is plenty of water for the corium to react with violently, but not enough to drown it.

      Maija: How far does the corium go?

      SP: The dispersion factor is a big unknown and they won’t be able to measure the size of it any better then when it was still in the building. But when it begins steaming in earnest they may have indication of how many square yards it will affect.

      Maija: Is it a blog or is it all dispersed?

      SP: Essentially the same answer as the last question…unknown.


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      • Whoopie Whoopie

        Great report Sickputer. TY


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      • Thank you Sickputer, your comments are, as always, very helpful…


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      • Arizonan Arizonan

        Thank you for this reply! I am wondering how we know for sure that contact between corium and water will produce a violent explosion. Is this an hypothesis or an inevitability arising from physics? Or have there been experiments to prove it? It is commonly repeated, but I am just wondering where it comes from.

        I hope we don’t see any demonstrations of the theory, but I must admit it does look increasingly likely….


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        • mikey

          Corium plus water- Sure boom! But just lethal fizz if enuff ventillation. Plutonium and water and Plutonium and air just dont play nice together- The last 5 blasts at Fuku should show us all about steam explosions all for except for 2 which just looked like simple nuclear reactions so no worries there mate….


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    • What I find interesting is the fact that best unbiased news coverage in the U.S. on Fukushima comes from Russian media. The MSM in the U.S. worse than pathetic. This situation is just getting started and you won’t hear anything on the 10 o’clock news about it. Rather, they report Justin Beiber’s new perfume and what color is his newest car. Thank you ENE NEWS. I refer to your site on a daily basis on my financial blog.


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      • jwfuki

        I agree.

        It’s all about keeping the “sheeple” distracted, without any news of real substance that might panic or otherwise stop them from being “good little indoctrinated” consumers!

        My .02………


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  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    Sure..just look at the foundation of reactor 1..and around the piping between 1 and 2.
    It has to be going on all over the plant.


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  • theypoisonus

    I was just reading this article at RT, and wanted to see if anyone here had posted it or enenews had it up yet.

    This opens a whole new realm of everyone’s thinking. Back to square 1 again ? Gawd. I don’t think I can take that, and I’m sure the Japanese people are flipping out !

    They just restarted another facility today or yesterday. What if another quake comes? I read in a Japanese paper a couple of days ago that they are predicting many more quakes this year, and that a 6+ would devistate Tokoyo killing hundreds of thousands and downing alot of buildings !

    RT text of above info.
    http://rt.com/news/fukushima-doomed-reactor-plant/


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  • cossack55

    If I were a melted core, I’d sure be getting the hell out. Those buildings are about to collapse. Oh, and the humans better split too.


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  • Whoopie Whoopie

    Did you see that?!?!?
    Soooooooo glad your back ENENEWS. Scared me!
    In case it happens again
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/12/nuclear-regulatory-commission_n_923098.html#comments


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  • I did a post with the video about this radioactive steam when I first saw the steam on the live cam. And also an earlier post about the groundwater entering the pool.

    http://radioactivechat.blogspot.com/2011/08/massive-amounts-of-steam-video-aug-14.html


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  • bmurr bmurr

    They need yo start moving the spent fuel. They should have constructed a new cooling facility for the spent fuel already and started moving it. When this place finally goes up its going to be impossible to manage the waste.


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    • Sickputer

      Too hot to move hot fuel rods safely by current technology for any significan distance away from the affected plant. Dry casks of fuel rods stored for 3 or 4 years can be moved possibly…but not sure if they had many cooler older rods that were encapsulated.

      The lack of a central storage facility in Japan and all other countries with nuclear plants is the reason why the disaster is so dangerous for regional and world-wide contamination. The nuke pukes in charge always knew this day of reckoning was coming…


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      • Whoopie Whoopie

        Holychit SP. Just like we’ve been saying. They have known forever the outcome of these reactors if breached. In every single one of them.


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        • Misitu

          I would agree, Whoopie. Any simple risk analysis would have considered, as if in cold blood, a multiple meltdown. I am sure this was done a long time ago, even as the wombles were chucking paint tins of pluto into the arroyos of New Mexico. I am equally sure that there is no /effective/ Plan B for the reasons we have seen demonstrated in front of our eyes recently. Nobody knows nor can know what happens when a meltdown/through/out happens on an industrial scale. Nor can the configuration or development of an industrial scale corium mix be predicted nor can same be located: it truly is the Sorcerer’s Apprentice From Hell.

          Just think, the whole Nuclear Power Industry has been running on Fingers Crossed for how many decades.

          Disgusting, appalling, criminally insane.


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  • Whoopie Whoopie

    I’m as confused as Majia is with this report. Dang. Is it spreading out or is it a blob? What is really going on? It’s not good whatever it is.


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    • moonshellblue moonshellblue

      Please excuse my redundancy but as was noted previously, no one knows what any of these cores look like or where they are. I personally think they are flowing like lava but perhaps not as fast as some may just be dripping out, so to speak. What an environmental nightmare.


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  • fuckyoushima

    maybe there aren’t controlled burnings after all.

    Arch Environ Contam Toxicol. 2011 Aug;61(2):344-57. Epub 2010 Nov 6.
    Blood, Urine, and Sweat (BUS) Study: Monitoring and Elimination of Bioaccumulated Toxic Elements.
    Genuis SJ, Birkholz D, Rodushkin I, Beesoon S.
    Source

    University of Alberta, Edmonton, AB, Canada, sgenuis@ualberta.ca.
    Abstract

    There is limited understanding of the toxicokinetics of bioaccumulated toxic elements and their methods of excretion from the human body. This study was designed to assess the concentration of various toxic elements in three body fluids: blood, urine and sweat. Blood, urine, and sweat were collected from 20 individuals (10 healthy participants and 10 participants with various health problems) and analyzed for approximately 120 various compounds, including toxic elements. Toxic elements were found to differing degrees in each of blood, urine, and sweat. Serum levels for most metals and metalloids were comparable with those found in other studies in the scientific literature. Many toxic elements appeared to be preferentially excreted through sweat. Presumably stored in tissues, some toxic elements readily identified in the perspiration of some participants were not found in their serum. Induced sweating appears to be a potential method for elimination of many toxic elements from the human body. Biomonitoring for toxic elements through blood and/or urine testing may underestimate the total body burden of such toxicants. Sweat analysis should be considered as an additional method for monitoring bioaccumulation of toxic elements in humans.

    sauna… get a sauna.

    words are having difficulty expressing the incredulity of this situation.


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  • theypoisonus

    About ground water.

    I read it here
    http://fukushima-diary.com/2011/08/breaking-news-splashing-steam-from-the-cracks-in-the-ground/
    @possibility #2.

    Then below in comments, is this post by Ektar

    “I have been monitoring the Cat Walk camera for the past few months. In July it appeared that black smoke was coming up from the bushes & also around the walk. I also noted changes in the ground on the right below the walk…holes opening releases & then close, repeatedly…also noted the black dots coming from the holes rising & you can see them crossing up over the white walk.
    Aug the plants have grown in, but still same observations only difference is it looks like water is now under the Cat Walk & still see Black & White spots rising.
    And of course ALL of these videos & screen shots show one plant in perfect focus with one next to it totally distorted….not normal, so my guess is screen or photo games or more so the distortion is from HOT HOT HOT coming out of the ground, as the ground changes under the right side Cat Walk mimic the distortion of the video from the Robot toward the end due to extreme Rads.
    THX! {end quote}


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  • moonshellblue moonshellblue

    I wish they would release an infrared photo of the area and perhaps we could see exactly where the corium is located.


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  • pure water

    Dear friends,
    I have written it before – the cores are dangerous and will make the place very hard to work on it. So, I will repeat it – they have to remove the fuel rods from the reactors 5 and 6, before it is too late. I am sure they know from the beginning where the cores were. Spectroscopic and infrared measurements could give that information. If they did not do it, they have to go away and ask for help. It is not a big deal to follow a mass so hot and enough heavy. And strongly emitting. I am sure the many people know the exact position. And all of them are obliged to say the same, what I say


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  • BreadAndButter BreadAndButter

    Hi all, Ex-SKF has slightly different info on the topic. A tepco worker tweeted “I’ve never heard of, or seen, such steam”. (But someone else may know)

    [The same worker] also told [his contact] that there are 6 locations that exceed 10,000 millisievert/hr [10 sieverts/hr], unlike what TEPCO has announced.

    http://www.ex-skf.blogspot.com/


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  • BreadAndButter BreadAndButter

    Can ANYBODY give an idea / thoughts on the question how long the danger of underground steam explosions will be there? How long could it take for the blobs to become too cool for an explosion?
    This bothers me a lot, I’d be happy to read your thoughts on that…


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    • Pallas89juno Pallas89juno@yahoo.com

      Dear Bread: “how long the danger [from corium I'm assuming]…steam [or nuclear explosions really] explosions?” Well, the radioactivity and chemical toxicity of the corium increases without managed cooling off, separation into smaller bits of certain shapes that inhibit criticality and then stored into inert, neutron inhibiting dry storage for 250,000 YEARS before it begins to decrease, very very slowly.

      If the corium ramifies (branches) into elongated shapes, far enough away from each other to cool the corium to solids, prevent recriticalities by the ramification or separation of the blob, then it could end quickly. I don’t think, at this time, that we know how to get close enough to a corium underground or otherwise to divide and conquer it. This ramification of the corium blob occurred by luck at Chernobyl. However, it’s radioactivity, as is usual for such, is still increasing and now, even though the corium was separated by accident of substructure architecture of the basements there beneath the reactor containment, their corium is lately heating up again. The absolutely uncontained and continually, cyclic, fissioning/criticalities of the corium at Fukushima means that IT will be dividing and conquering us in a slow pathetic pall descending into and over all of us and everything like a quiet hush until our last weak wimpers…without revolution in the here and now to invent and immediately implement solutions that could alter this definite inevitability due to uncontained, increasingly radioactive, hot and unstable corium at Fukushima, and eventually at many other civilian nuke stations worldwide, all on the edge of having similar uncontained corium scenarios give or take a few years to decades.


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      • Pallas89juno Pallas89juno@yahoo.com

        I need to edit more. I meant to say that the corium’s radioactivity actually increases for 250,000 years before it even remotely begins to become less radioactive. If it’s fissioning, and it all is fissioning as far as we can deduce, I don’t think it ever really cools off in a human time scale–definitely not in the next several thousands of years, unless divided and inertly contained.


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      • BreadAndButter BreadAndButter

        Dear Pallas,
        so you mean I’ll be afraid od a steam explosion at Fuku for the rest of my life????


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    • Steven Steven

      If you snoop around some of the pro-nuke sites you should be able to find someone claiming smugly that the fuel in these BWR’s isn’t potent enough to achieve criticality without water being present as a moderator. Apparently the neutrons fly off so fast without water that they miss their target nuclei.

      Unfortunately even in this scenario if they don’t adequately cool the fuel with water, heat builds up to a point where the fuel (+ cladding) begins to destroy itself and release radioactive material into the environment.

      Also the presence of MOX fuel probably means all bets are off regarding the initial statement. Therefore, as I see it, there is a possibility of criticality due to the presence of MOX fuel and/or water. If the cooling water ceases to flow or fails to adequately cool the fuel due to the ‘blob’ being cooled only at it’s surface, it would appear that there’s a good chance of criticality or a steam explosion if the ‘blob’ comes into contact suddenly with water in a confined space.

      The ‘blob’ at Chernobyl is being studied with interest (at a distance) even after 25 years. As far as I can tell they don’t let any water near it. Also, they shot it with an AK47 so it’s probably dead.

      “As the material was dangerously radioactive and hard and strong, and using remote controlled systems was not possible due to high radiation interfering with electronics,[35] shooting at it from an AK-47 was used to split off chunks for analysis.”

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corium_%28nuclear_reactor%29#Chernobyl_accident

      Fukushima seems to be a whole different ball game. Not just for the multiple melts and issues, but because of the fuel type, which was thought to be less dangerous than the fuel used at Chernobyl, but which has clearly shown itself to be just as dangerous, if not more so.


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    • mikey

      BnB How long will the danger of explosions persist?? I would think based on the excellent info here that the Blobs will be explosively dangerous from their last prompt criticality out to about 7 years at the minimum- This is just from Hydrogen tho who can say what other interaction can cause a flare up?


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  • pure water

    Why so? The contamination goes on. I agree with any other point of view, but there are removable fuel rods there! Why they do not remove them?! It becomes more and more dangerous.Let us accept the obvious, all of us! My personal feeling is that the fuel is bubbling underground. Well, it may be wrong. I will be OK with it, if they remove the rest of the fuel at the cite.The place becomes more and more contaminated. Whatever the reason, they have to reduce the risk. Personal opinions do not matter, let us follow the measurements.I am sure TEPKO watches us – so, you are the ones to act! Remove the rods!


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    • BreadAndButter BreadAndButter

      Hi pure water, remove the rods to put them where? I think there’s a reason why they stored them there in the first place!


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      • Pallas89juno Pallas89juno@yahoo.com

        Dear Bread: Actually, we know how to store spent fuel rods. The operators, owners, shareholders and militaries assocatied with civilian nuclear power stations always hope that they can maximally economize (profiteer) from this bizarrely high-level radioactive “waste” through reprocessing (MOX fuel creation). Another bottom line is that it is far less expensive in the short-term business model view (unfortunately, the way that these plants roll) to keep SF in pools than it is to properly and responsibly (public health/efficiency)store the rods in KNOWN dry storage techniques.


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        • Pallas89juno Pallas89juno@yahoo.com

          Dear Bread: Unfortunately, another reason FRESH spent fuel is stored in pools is that it takes SEVEN years (not two or three as the disinformation goes) to properly cool the rods before they can be stored in DRY storage systems in special casks. The special dry storage casks are enormously expensive; but the tech exists. A reorientation (revolution, and quick) of human society as to priorities is definitely required to see the status quos of civilian nuclear power stations altered toward sanity and the LONG-TERM view in any meaningful way.


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      • radegan

        I vote for rectal storage in TEPCO officials.


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    • Pallas89juno Pallas89juno@yahoo.com

      Dear Pure: Why don’t they remove the fuel rods that can be removed? I think some are being removed (from the R3 explosion of the R3 SFP), but to where (incineration, ocean dumping, offshore “mega-float”, CSFP) I have no idea. I agree that wherever there are uncontained fuel spent fuel rods, all of these everywhere on the planet must immediately be stored in inert DRY storage in neutron inhibiting gas using the best neutron inhibiting engineering (inner galadium shell?) that we DO currently have technology for. Doing less is suicidal in the big picture.


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    • Arizonan Arizonan

      TEPCO “measurements” right now are surely uncertain: temperature and radiation reading devices are in the containment building, but according to TEPCO the corium has “melted out” of the building. I suggest that we do not trust any TEPCO measurements right now.


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  • BreadAndButter BreadAndButter

    Fukushima plant leaking less radioactive material: TEPCO

    snip
    “According to the plant operator TEPCO, the amount of radioactive substances leaking from the Nos. 1, 2 and 3 reactors dropped to a maximum 200 million becquerels per hour, from 1 billion becquerels per hour a month earlier.”
    http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/08/109439.html

    Makes me think about what the man on RT said: “It doesn’t mean the releases are becoming smaller, just the core is moving away from the measuring device”.


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    • Pallas89juno Pallas89juno@yahoo.com

      Dear Bread: Yes, it may mean that (corium moving away from the measuring device); but I do not give TEPCO any credit or benefit of the doubt that they even begin to try to tell the truth whatsoever. They are not a reliable source of information at face value. I’m fairly certain just reasoning the situation through that radioactivity and emissions (toxic radioactivity/chemical–fissioning is an enormously toxic process chemically)are most assuradely increasing, since the radioactivity of the radiologically hot deposits from explosions or leaks at the surface, in general, also does not decrease or improve in any human time frame.


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      • BreadAndButter BreadAndButter

        Dear Pallas, you’re probably right – reassuring folks that it’s safe to move back in September! All part of the big PR machinery…


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        • Pallas89juno Pallas89juno@yahoo.com

          Dear Bread: Another thing you and others in this discussion are helping me to think about and that I didn’t previously consider well (please correct this is if you know it is now true) is that “ground” that R1-R4 sit upon is actually FILL, as in landfill! This ground that these reactors sit on is unconsolidated geologically and not only that it is capped by clay, geotextile–what? landfill waste. Therefore, trying to be darkly humorous to lighten the mood by pointing out how many layers of being screwed we are really dealing with (and I’m surely not catching them all being just one person), R1-R4 FukuDai is built near a mega-thrust fault having experienced recent mega-thrust activity, there are dozens or hundreds of significant locally sensible ground accelerations on or since March 12 (aftershocks), unknown number of previous ground acceleration events (unknown to me) before the event. Fill is the least stable and most prone to liquifaction and to sand/water “blows” possible substrate on which to build ANY structures whatsoever. If FukuDai were built upon sand, that would be outrageously bad enough in terms of underground structures associated with the plant. There’s also the definitely high water table in a land with high rainfall, the ocean is nearby. We must remember that though water, especially cold water is fairly good neutron inhibitor, it does NOT work on the interior of a corium if the shape’s radius is sufficiently thick. Such water would only work on the “skin” of the corium. Intrusions of highly corrosive seawater, not to mention boronated water (intensely corrosive) and other corrosive chemicals (created by the corium) exist in what is likely a really toxic soup beneath the plant. Liquifaction of the substrate has most likely occurred and intensifies the communication of highly radioactive and chemically toxic waters and sediments involved. My rambling about this is meant, in my own small pathetic way, to illustrate that there is a large chance that any super dense corium has NOT ramified at all in this very “soft” subvening surrounding substrate. How could it? I’m not certain what the specific geology beneath the old landfill layer is, either and that is a big problem as far as corium goes. ENE’ers have given me the task to find out what the local geology is there. How deep the alluvium, if it is alluvium? I know that Japan is largely volcanic in origin; but are there clay layers? Is there any sort of bedrock in this area? I know there are some young limestones in various parts of Honshu. This would NOT be a good bedrock scenario in this case as karst allows a lot of communication or movement of water, itself. It’s quite porous. I don’t know at what temperatures it melts and don’t know if it could, if it is the substrate material, contain or help ramify (make branch into cooler and smaller shapes) the corium masses. I’m very worried about a meltdown–I know it’s not confirmed or even very indicated yet–at the Turkey point plant in Florida. The entire state is a karst formation.


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          • Pallas89juno Pallas89juno@yahoo.com

            if you know it is “not” not “now”, true. typos again


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          • BreadAndButter BreadAndButter

            Dear Pallas, I can follow your argumentation (though I had to read slowly, no native speaker after all, lol)
            I find it incredible that so far there’s no geologist from Japan speaking up and giving info about the underground situation in Fuku. I mean, it it secret or what??


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          • Misitu

            Dear all
            In case the case that I may have been responsible for some information and opinions that have percolated through (as it were):

            Subsequent to the original guess-analysis that “Holocene reclaimed land” meant infill of a bay by marine dredged sand, subsequent articles referenced on this site (asahi I think) showed that FU1 was built on land after removal of a 35m high hill, for the purpose of reducing costs of pumping coolant seawater.

            The solid geology is I understand, and from memory, mixed strata of mudstones and calcareous and arenaceous mudstones to 100m more of thickness: something like compacted (mudstone) clays with layers with more or less content of limestone and silica sand.

            This would not be great stuff to build a skyscraper on, without appropriate antiseismic precautions.

            Reminding ourselves that the nuclear power station complex is not one building but many and linked by pipes which seem to have been especially vulnerable to the earthquake movements, the skyscraper analogy proves inadequate in that a single skyscraper building has a simple, quality-assured, structure hence will clearly be safer in a seismic event than a complex power generation site.

            We arrive at another guess analysis that says that regardless of other soil qualities, a nuclear power station requires extreme quality assurance in both its ground survey and construction stages.

            The fact that a geological survey was posited in 2007 but apparently never carried out not only gives us no confidence whatsoever in the real state of the subsurface geology, because still unknown, but also suggests that it was not carried out because the management already knew that any results would damage their credibility as nuclear plant operators.

            Mudstone with layers of more sandy and more limey material can be slidey stuff in the vernacular, depending on the orientation of the force: perpendicular compression, not much movement; lateral shear, plenty.

            There is still nothing to say that the foundation material and subsoil did not play a part, but more recent news items do talk about pipes buckling during the earthquake, and about lack of any regular pipework inspection, so some of the “landfill” discussions may have been false trails. Sorry about this.

            There is a site I have been given which may have some structural engineering discussion about Fu-1 and I will try to remember to get back with details of it.

            All the above was just to correct an earlier post(s) of mine to avoid any criticism which might be attracted and reduce the credibility of our discussions.


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  • pure water

    Well, reactors 5 and 6 are my concern. Those greedy fellows may use them, instead of losing.Our care for life may coincide with the greed at some point. Why not tell them?!
    Love to all of you here!


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  • mikael

    Of course, and he is right.Its the ultimate nukelear Nightmare senario.

    Its on its way under the building, what the “core” actualy looks like is unknown, but the facts are the ground is moving.
    Whats the imidiate future will bring us is also unknown, but its been soon 6 months since the meltdown started.
    I also belive, that for now the ground under the site is enclousing the “blob”, so perhaps the rad.messurements will go down for a while, but sooner or later presure created by the heat and the steam wil start to expand and make its self some “space”.
    As heat and presure rise the ground wil give in and it will go where the resistance is least, upward.
    Probably thats what they are witnesing on the site, and presumably the cracks and holes will be bigger.
    Its hollowing out the wery ground the site is resing on.(because of presure and steam)
    This gives the long range implications a hole new meaning, if the site becomes so radioactive that work is imposible.
    We may have a escalating of the catastofe beyound our imagination.
    The site can actualy sink into the ground.

    Whats also unknown is the scale radiation in the steam will eventualy be. And rember, its aprx 200 different isotops already and this has the potentail of lasting for a verry long time.

    Then what.

    Peace.


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    • Pallas89juno Pallas89juno@yahoo.com

      Dear Mikael: I didn’t think about the “sinking into the ground” of the entire site idea. That seems to be a possibility. Also, and this is reaching a bit farther onto a branch, I wonder if some of the smaller earthquake activity under the plant could be explosions of corium? Would such necessarily vent? Would we be told about this? Would the venting gases from such an explosion come out as “steam” from “cracks” occuring at the surface of the FukuDai plant. Obviously, we’re brainstorming, but this is an important part of the process in forming a picture of something where we can’t get close enough ourselves and are prevented through disinformation and news blackouts from seeing directly and in real-time, usually, what is going on for ourselves.


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    • Bob Hardin Bob Hardin

      So the corium may be turning the ground under the plant into mush. Interesting hypothesis.


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    • Steven Steven

      The ‘Battle for Fukushima’ has always been about TEPCO either holding their ground, or losing it and being forced to evacuate. The latter outcome could occur as a result of any one of a number of mishaps or deteriorations, and this new threat of radioactive steam venting randomly from the ground just adds to that list.

      If at any point they have to withdraw permanently, they – and we – lose.


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  • Dr. McCoy: Spock, I’ve found that evil usually triumphs…unless good is very, very careful


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  • NoNukes NoNukes

    I am so impressed and thankful for everyone’s incisive and thoughtful comments, everyday. I wish you all were in charge of this catastrophe.


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  • Pallas89juno Pallas89juno@yahoo.com

    This RT video is good. I would like to clarify one thing, we cannot depend, of course but I’m going to provide an example, on the published earthquake design tolerances provided to us. Kashiwazaki Kariwa, the world’s largest nuclear power station and directly latitudinally across Honshu from FukuDai, experienced a probable partial meltdown after a 6.4? or 6.8 earthquake almost directly beneath the KK plant on July 16, 2007. There was a much worse black out on this nuclear station misshap because, like TMI, the meltdown did not breach the containment. It may not at all yet be a contained situation, either. We just, or I just, may have too little information to make this determination. My point, however, is that KK was designed for this kind of ground acceleration but behaved as though it was designed for less than half of the ground acceleration produced in the July 16, 2007 earthquake. This, another very solid reason, to call for the immediate decommissioning and abatement of all civilian nuclear reactors. There is so much lying in the industry that we must assume all operators, wholesale, are not providing any kind of accurate information, which means none, are even remotely worthy of continuing operation given the risks of misshap under “normal” environmental conditions (earthquakes, tornado). We also cannot rely, therefore, on any information about aging of nuke plants and all recertifications of civilian nuke plants must, also therefore, be considered spurious, at best.


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    • Pallas89juno Pallas89juno@yahoo.com

      I want to correct what I said. I think that TMI breached containment in terms of steam even though operators vary on whether or not that occured. What I meant was is that neither TMI nor KK produced the kinds of containment building destruction that would be impossible to hide as FukuDai.


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    • Pallas89juno Pallas89juno@yahoo.com

      The reason I advocate for a wholesale treatment of nuclear power operators as unreliable and therefore actually criminal elements in terms of operations of their facilities is also reinforced by the very incestuous, covert (always always dishonest) operating status quos within this industry. No such station, given the environmental risks, of course up to and including Homo sapiens sapiens extinction, should ever be considered in any way for being allowed to operate unmolested by the 7B who make up the non-billionaire public without FULL transparency 100% of the time 100% about everything to do with these power generation technologies. It is the right of every human to have FULL knowledge of this technology. There are ZERO arguments for non-transparency that ever hold any water, whatsoever in this register where the stakes are so high for everyone.


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  • pure water

    I think we are careful – a lot of suggestions, careful examination, careful proposals. And respect for the truth. Compliments for the respect of truth! May be we are among the minority of the free people there. Let`s examine the situation once again – if the cite sinks, the survivors will be more.The trouble comes from the emissions, that seem to become more with time passing. It is evident that many people will suffer and die. I feel all of you know something about suffering, and because of this you are able to see the precious value of life. The aim is to protect what is possible to be protected. There ere human values that can keep us alive and preserve the balance. If I die from cancer some day i n the future, I will be satisfied to know, that there remain human beings, who share my values. This gives me the courage to think and search. We are not alone, all of us. No matter we are the minority just now. It will change soon.The problem is more than big and has no chance to be hidden. Instinct for life is a strong force and it will work for the truth to become evident
    By that time, we have to reduce the damages.


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  • I don’t know if anyone has thought of this, but what is there that says the corium’s have to stay in one piece ? If it runs into uneven and hardened areas as it melts through the concrete and other settlements of the earth and different angles are involved in the burn process may taking longer to burn through part of and area and the other not there will be an uneven effect !
    This may cause the corium’s to break apart and add water to the mix on thinned or cooled areas where it may be separating then the corium’s may be breaking away in parts and pieces with water moving it to new areas under the reactors or further away depending on the flow of water or resistance of soils to burn down !
    There may well be hundreds of piece’s of
    corium’s if not more and could well be hundreds of yards from the burn holes if underground currents and ease of movement through mud soils have allowed it to move more freely in some places then others !


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  • bigisland bigisland

    It’s probably going to move easier thru mud than concrete and then will go thru bedrock a lot slower than mud. Has to go thru muck before bedrock (pancake on bedrock for awhile, spread sideways and go down center of rock) and aquifer/ground water. Japan’s doing nothing. Chernobyl guys had to build a ground water barrier pan, tunnel it, channel it, back fill with concrete. Imagine the smaller containment higher chance of blowing up. Apparently eaten thru concrete, spread some more. It’s very heavy so mostly go down. Could yes de-stabilize surface of ground and fall thru/sink. Surface to volume problem: even if pour water on the skin (freeze/re-melt) until inside heat mass cools off, going to stay hot a long time with water on surface…just take a long time to cool off. More it pancakes more it would cool off. Just probably going to contaminate the ground water and then that’s going to flow into the ocean. Have no idea how water table looks or which way it flows. Obviously water wells around plant will be contaminated. In a certain way, breaking out of the containment gives it a chance to spread…


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  • bigisland bigisland

    With the steam brings up other issues. The real china syndrome, keeps going down until it gets cold. So many open issues. No one seen this, no one with experience with this thing happening. Where are the lil pistol shaped guns “Heat Spies” of infra red cameras??? SO many variables. If water is in it will stay wet, some make more steam. Change structure of mud/rock layers, de-stabilize FOUNDATION of the plant. Well, it’s already got a holes/cracks in concrete, going back up in building, steam rising up and more out of bldg. How deep before corium cools off. Wild ass guess..50 feet! What a mess!Think Tepco let the cams show such? 500 miles out fm China high radiation detected in water. Imagine drawing 500 miles around Japan, coastlines pretty radiated then.


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    • Pallas89juno Pallas89juno@yahoo.com

      Dear Big: Corium does NOT cool off unless it changes into a SHAPE that does not support fissioning. External water or even pure nuetron inhibitors like Magnesium sand or Boron are irrelevent. Corium fissioning, with no change in shape, gets more radioactive and will continue cyclically fissioning MORE for 250,000 years becoming MORE radioactive until that time. The getting “cold” part does not occur at all spontaneously unless and until the corium is divided or stretched into a different shape, which causes a loss of the ability of formation of a critical mass for neutron cascade of the corium material in question. Such a change in shape may not be likely without running into a very hard, dense sort of bedrock. I don’t know how far below the site such bedrock might exist. I know that the R1-R4 are built on “fill”; but am not 100% sure if it’s garbage landfill, earth or rock fill. I don’t know the characteristics of this substrate but to properly and more fully answer your question we would need to know this.


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      • Pallas89juno Pallas89juno@yahoo.com

        Dear Big: For example, you CAN cool fuel rods, spent or not in neutron inhibiting cold water, if proper protocols are otherwise met, because the pellets are contained in a shape where fissioning can be MANAGED by inserting boron plates or putting some sort of neutron cascade (creates fission) in the water itself where there is no ability to insert boron plates (inhibiting neutron cascade, which causes criticality) between the rods that contain the pellets of fuel, spent or not. I hope this is more clear.


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        • bigisland bigisland

          Dear Pallas89,
          I get you on the the fuel rods. I understand if the rods are still rods then chance of cooling off. Yet if melted it would depend on the size of the corium blob. Thanks for making that more clear.


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  • bigisland bigisland

    Whatever is happening, think Tepco is going is going to make an announcement/press release/statement? How truthful will what Tepco have to say be? Especially if no one there is able to monitor with infra red reading/measurement. Why wouldn’t this scare the bejesus out of the workers there and they would be scrambling to leave. The possibility of the plant’s foundation falling out might have occurred to them. Anything steaming madly like that is a nightmare.


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    • Pallas89juno Pallas89juno@yahoo.com

      TEPCO is employing the ignorant, duped, sold, sold-out, or poorest and most vulnerable in society. Using the same “live-for-the-moment” philosophy that prevents the profiteering owners and “regulators” from doing the right thing. CYA and short-term profits are what matters most to both ends of this employment continuum. Each worker getting paid according to their nationality for the most part. Meat puppets doomed, all.


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  • manontherun111

    Aw it just keeps getting better and better,,,

    When is castrate and burn tepco official day again?


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    • Pallas89juno Pallas89juno@yahoo.com

      In realty, I hope very soon and not from blood lust, which I actually lack; but because with each passing day fetuses, infants, children and also innocent non-human species in their millions are being poisoned by our non-decisive and damaging milquetoast inaction.


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  • Anybody notice that I told you this and every event that has happened, as far along as 5 months ago… Within a 20 day / accuracy…
    >?<

    slinky
    Emmy.


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    • westcoastgirl westcoastgirl

      Just wondering, then…do you think they will have to evacuate eventually?


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      • westcoastgirl westcoastgirl

        Another question…Chernobyl didn’t have a containment vessel around it. From what I remember it melted into the basement of the building. I can’t remember if it kept going or not.

        Is what is happening the same, different, not as bad or worse than what happened with Chernobyl? I guess I’m wondering if this is a replay of Chernobyl (with the addition of mox fuel added to the mix) or completely uncharted territory.

        Does anyone know?


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        • Pallas89juno Pallas89juno@yahoo.com

          Dear West: Fukushima is much worse than Chernobyl. The corium of Chernobyl split into different parts, sufficiently small enough mass and elongated and flattened enough shape to more or less halt melting through the concrete beneath the reactor. The Chernobyl corium flowed and split into various basement rooms there. You could research the Chernobyl corium. It’s actually an interesting story. In the case of Chernobyl there are images of the “elephant’s foot” for example to help give you more of an illustration and feel for what is going on there.

          Unfortunately, corium does continue to become more radioactive and though I’m not certain if the shape, mass and composition of the corium at Chernobyl is sufficient to restart neutron cascades and spontaneous fissioning; it’s not out of the question.

          There were full melt throughs, however, at FukuDai in R1, R2 and R3. R3 is especially problematic because of the intense added instability of the very high Pu content of the fuel to start. All of these coriums are likely still fissioning and will continue to grow more radioactive and more toxic for thousands of years, to as much as 250,000 years before they begin, if they begin, to stop having spontaneous fissioning (criticalities) in a cyclic way. See some of Anne’s posts. They link to some information and resources that better explain the criticality phenomenon than my nighttime brain can reproduce right now.


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          • Pallas89juno Pallas89juno@yahoo.com

            Dear West: Even split into several elongated flows, Chernobyl’s deepest penetrating corium ramification (branch or flow of the corium “lava”) penetrated 6 feet deep into solid concrete.


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          • westcoastgirl westcoastgirl

            Thank you; I have read and and watched quite a few things about Chernobyl, but it’s been a while and I couldn’t remember everything.

            I do remember that the containment vessel is a new supposed ‘foolproof’ safety precaution, and also that for some reason the corium stopped moving and solidified at Chernobyl. They claimed that happened with all the meltdowns at Fukushima, too, but I wondered if that seemed a little optomistic…


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        • bigisland bigisland

          @westcoastgirl
          “for some reason the corium stopped moving and solidified at Chernobyl”
          Chernobyl guys had to build a ground water barrier pan, tunnel it, channel it, back fill with concrete. Took A LOT of effort of many (hundreds of thousands). If you think about this, burrowing a hole underground under it all to channel and stop the corium so it could get thin/flat enuff so it could “pancake” out to where there’s a decrease in the neutrons and the fissioning slows, to where it finally does solidify. Again, JAPAN IS DOING NOTHING and has done nothing of the sort!!! “They claimed that happened with all the meltdowns at Fukushima, too, but I wondered if that seemed a little optimistic” WHO claimed such? The claim is not just out right FALSE, it’s beyond preposterous. That just goes to show you how much of a nuclear delusion and criminal cover-up this is!


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      • Pallas89juno Pallas89juno@yahoo.com

        Tohoku should be already evacuated all the way through most of the Tokyo metro area to at least northern Tohoku on Honshu. I’m not really sure how far to the western side of Honshu in those same latitudes the fall-out pattern is. However, fallout from earlier dirty nuclear, steam or hydrogen/steam, whatever, explosions is only part of the problem and imperative for full evaculation of, at least all gravid females, babies and children from these areas. The other is, of course, the ongoing emissions mentioned earlier of 10 to the 13th power Bq/HOUR of radiation emitting perpetually with higher and higher peaks of increasing numbers of lethally radioactive sites around the FukuDai plant being reported, or that we’re learning about. Chernobyl’s emissions ended after about a week or so…unless that’s BS from our government and the documentaries, as well. I certainly hope not. But you get the picture a little better I hope.


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  • micsam

    Thanks lam335 for the link good documentary and info everyone should watch
    http://www.infiniteunknown.net/2011/06/17/the-battle-of-chernobyl-documentary-hq/ After Watching Best Chernobyl Documentary 2006 The Battle of Chernobyl I thought how could any disaster be worse (Japan Has over 50 US over 120 Nuclear Plants). Fukashima completely out of control and 100x worse than Chernobyl. (still out of control after 25 yrs)This is my Living Planet it’s where we all live, it’s Beautiful, provides everything we need to live a Happy, Healthy life everyone should love it and protect it. The Planet Earth was Created by God or a super intelligent Positive Life Force or ( what ever you call your God or Creator.) This intelligent force that created the Universe, billions of Galaxies Google to the Google power of stars continues to create and recreate.(Humans are not intelligent enough to use and control the Atom for an energy source or weapons yet) The blue print for all things seen and unseen super intelligent DNA.( Don’t radiate DNA Please) So why is the Nuclear Mafia and a few multinational insane psychopaths MSM included trying to destroy our Beautiful Planet?? It’s where they and their children and families live. Is it for a few years of electricity or to create a large ATM and keep a few people wealthy (the old fable sell your sole(earth) for 20 pieces of silver) or just the new fad on the block. Solar, Natural gas, wind, tide, hydrogen, hydro electric geothermal the list goes on and on abundance of clean energy new technology everyday These Insane Psychopaths are going to turn our Beautiful Earth into a planet just like Mars. The Planet Earth is a large dirty nuclear bomb one large world or cosmic event game over and there well be 50 TMI, Chernobyl’s and Fukushimas Shut them all down before the next Fukashima!! The End.


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  • Heart of the Rose Heart of the Rose

    This is a repost from another thread…
    http://www.youtube.com/user/nuckelchenblogde#p/u/1/7qN-5B8s2e8
    This is the garbage we are up against….
    Night all……


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  • bigisland bigisland

    @ Pallas89
    Yes I agree water would do some cooling, yet not enuff to be efficient on the outside, thus steam. Would be interesting how this liquid corium moves thru mud. Hot enuff to melt mud, depends on the mud, imagine incorporating the mud. Clays tend to melt at 3,000 and corium guessing 2,000 so might just certainly dry clay out with steam coming up. If it were pure plutonium get a critical mass around 10 kilograms, density around 5 (that’s a ballpark to be critical) Then corium mixed with uranium, melted rod, steel…take more to be critical. A gallon of stuff in a ball is critical. Power excursions means it goes super critical/criitcal self-sustaining/chain reacting while it’s melting, self-heating, excess heat, eating thru concrete floor and doing whatever it’s doing, still chain-reacting. Hitting dirt, etc. will scatter, spread more junk wider. Mud will get radioactive, neutron activation…hit iron, radioactive iron 56, catch neutrons. Secondary radiation of mud, rock. Steam will carry dust and junk where that means more radioactive stuff around. How do I say this? I don’t see how it goes UP in radioactivity, well, because atoms are breaking (half-life means only half of it is there anymore) Will go down in radioactivity, of course, not really fast. Cesium (marker) 30 years half-life, etc. Total mess could mean 1300 reaction products together. IF there was some magic way to pancake it out this thin 1/4 -1/2″ then it could solidify in a day or two. If trapped in mud, etc. could have a chance to throw concrete on it. Don’t know how gonna contain corium in ground water and mud, bubbling thru the aquifer. Like to think they DO have infra red pics that they are just NOT showing or showing us of the corium blob. It’s fissioning and that’s the b*tCH of it, yet don’t know how that’s going to become more radioactive? Imagine the good scenario is alien/celestial form shows up (for spook connected friends) and they know how to”turn the radiation off”. Sun is accelerating the decay rate with more solar flares. Any physics book will read there’s nothing in hell to change the decay rate. No idea why this happens with Sun. We sure don’t know it all, yet.


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    • Pallas89juno Pallas89juno@yahoo.com

      Dear Big: The corium, as long as it’s allowed to keep fissioning, which means being in the right maintained mass (weight) and shape, it will continue to become more radioactive for 250,000 years due to the production of daughter radionuclides and the reproduction of neutrons in a slow gradient positive feedback loop. The wiki article on corium, overstates the influence of external elements that a corium might come into contact with and understates the profound perpetuosity, if you will, of a corium that is not divided and maintains a large enough mass. Of course, without proper protocols being followed, the existence of water in the present of Plutonium, in the mix for example, which itself is created as a by-product of the process of cyclical fissioning and re-fissioning corium, will become very unstable and highly reactive in water, which contributes to the longevity of the process. I don’t fully understand the chemistry behind it and am just a lay person. This is definitely worth looking into more deeply. To help you understand why it’s 250,000 years and not the weeks or single YEAR that the propaganda from TEPCO or whomever says it is, is due to the great diversity of daughter radionuclides that are produced by fissioning. Some of these have very short half lives, but some of these have very long half lives. The mixture is constantly “resetting” itself and becomes increasingly radioactive, partly due to the increased Pu being produced; but also due to the production of other daughter radionuclides. Decay heat extremely important; but the important thing is the perpetual cycle of going critical and then going critical again. See the early graphs of R1 cycles of criticality illustrated by measurements of the constantly increasing radioactivity emitting from R1 to get a better understanding. I’ll try to learn enough to become much more articulate about this process in time.


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  • bigisland bigisland

    Aloha Phallas
    “the reproduction of neutrons in a slow gradient positive feedback loop” which means = chain reaction. I need to understand the chemistry of this more better as I am thinking about all this. I too be a lay person. Not smart, yet working toward understanding/knowledge/smarts. I suppose those early graphs you’re referring to of R1 cycles of criticality are going up and down? Or just going higher and higher? I remember a number had to be adjusted to a higher level that had not been met before, and perhaps was even going past that. Mahalos for your divine patience.


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  • Madmox

    I’ve been following you all from the beginning, grateful for all your truth-seeking and concern. But as I sit here again with boiling blood about what my children will face I wonder sometimes if even this site is another ploy at keeping us all placated with verbage in place of being really active. Probably just my own guilt, but right now I’m really fucking pissed off and ready to join others in protest. Somehow sending emails to Senators doesn’t seem to cut it. I wrote the moderator and asked if he could provide a column designated to organizing protests and actions, haven’t heard back. How can I turn my rage into constructive and cathartic action??


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  • Truth

    Don’t you just love her last question?… How about not building any more such plants in Ukraine?


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  • Alex2245

    This is very serious. Radiation is being reported in rain in Canada and Oklahoma and ARNIE GUNDERSEN is reporting that a the government has decided to take part in a large scale CRIMINAL cover up!!!

    http://theintelhub.com/2011/08/18/radioactive-rain-in-toronto-canada-as-large-scale-government-cover-up-of-radiation-dangers-exposed/


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  • NeverAnyDanger

    I’ve been looking to find information on what the reactors are built on too.
    The information is very sparse. Lots of people have to know this – no doubt our govt does. That makes me think that they’ve decided to just let us be surprised by what happens next.

    I did come across some discussions about the foundations under the reactors.

    <a href="http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=507369&quot;

    <a href="http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=499725&quot;


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