Published: August 24th, 2012 at 2:42 pm ET
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Yastel Yamada, cofounder and director of Skilled Veterans Corps for Fukushima (Part II)
TUC Radio (Maria Gilardin)
Recorded July 30, 2012
At 19:00 in
Now a very important thing, Fukushima Daiichi is more complex than Chernobyl…
Their task was just to cover the furnace unit.
But in the case of Fukushima Daiichi, we have to continue to cool it for 10 years, 20 years. That is much different.
We cannot cover Fukushima Daiichi.
Listen to the report here
Published: August 24th, 2012 at 2:42 pm ET
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sending...
I really think about if it would be best to stop that massive leaching of the corium by water cooling.
I just don't get the point.
Why don't they just grout the CV and RPV, and then the rest of the buildings?
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hundreds of tons of fuel have liquified into a high-temperature mass that's releasing its energy (and other goodies) into the surrounding environment. It's likely to remain in this state for thousands of years. It will leach-out those goodies into the surrounding environment, which will then be continuously carried away to the adjacent ocean. Cap or no cap, this will go on for thousands of years!
If you 'cap' the area off, you do not stop this problem of leaching. If you 'cap' the area off, should you do decide to return will the means to do something practical, you'll have the additional problem of removing the covering material; which, will only add to the problem of being that-much-more material that needs remediation.
I'm glad there are people (Yastel Yamada) who won't jump at 'corexit solutions' when there's a major problem.
All said, we need to get the best minds on this (NOW!!!) before moving forward. I'm beginning to think the United Nations is nothing more than a employment agency for college graduates. What the fuck are they doing about this?! If they ever had a purpose, it's now or never…
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" If they ever had a purpose, it's now or never…"
Agenda21 and the NWO , of course, wipe out 90% of the population so the mutants (people, whatever) can inherit the earth.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/yates/yates63.html
call it united nations and use it to wipe out national self determination.
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with freedom comes accountability; something that humans are somehow quick to forget. While most sat about staring at their genitalia, a handful of thinking monkeys realized that it could be them or someone else who eventually takes control of the planet's destiny. I'm delighted someone's had the foresight to preempt its premature demise. Any intelligent being would support planned resource management. Of course, it's a matter of deciding how it was to be managed. But I remind, everyone was busy twirling sparklers in celebration of having put-down those bad guys. Now, all seem to be waking to the reality that they've been in service to the bad guys! So please put-away those fantasies of storming the Bastille with the other centerfold memorabilia. No one's coming to deliver us from our own self-centered insularity. Those at the top of this pile-of-crap called humanity are not going away. There is no magic or mystery to what's descending upon us all. We are moving into a new age; albeit, kicking and screaming. You're more than welcome to stand in its way. Windmills are back; feel free to commence the charge. Just keep in mind, it's not about you, me or anyone else alive today. It's about the continuity of tens-of-thousands-of-years. When you begin to grasp the scale of what's at stake, you'll not fear the beckoning flames of the so-called New World Order. We were…from day one…already tear-filled dust…
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I don't see a lot of difference. Both units: melted fuel that has left the core, no efficient cooling, reactor buildings collapsed, and no way to stop emissions. They are seeing contaminated areas outside the plant with increased contamination. Doing what they are doing does not seem to be helping, if they in fact are doing anything at all.
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Hi ChrisK9, since you have worked in the field, what do you think could or might be done? Am intereseted in hearing opinions from those who have worked at reactors. Do you still have friends who worked with you, technicians and/or engineers? Really wonder if someone with reactor experience might come up with a brilliant and un-thought of idea. Or part of the solutiion. All hands on deck! And my apologies to anyone here if I ever sounded over critical of their ideas. Any idea is a good idea and deserves consideration. No idea at this point is a foolish idea. The "brilliant minds" who have been assigned to consider this haven't any clue, it seems, as to what to do. The solution hasn't yet beer invented, or it hasn't been applied to this situation Makes me wish I had time to go to the nearest patent library and do research to see if someone has alrready come up with a viable solution.
A well written patent application will have its language written to cover all potential applications. Therein lies the clue to using an invention considered to be "novel, unique, and un-obvious" (plus one other criterion) for a novel and unique (but effective) purpose.
Thanks. HT
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Aftershock, you had a good idea awhile back for tunneling under the reactors to explore and build some kind of containment structure. Have you given more thought to your concept? I'd thought at the time perhaps special support inside the tunnel might be needed so it would withstand shear stresses, and whatever ground motions (in any direction) might be encountered.
Where's the chap who does the great engineering/design type drawings?
Was that you, AtomFritz? Am wondering if we should start doodling and post the drawings here so we can work on a collective idea. Or ????
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Or Feliks? Did you post the drawings awhlle back? Someone posted a spoof on how the failure of containment was like a giant crapper dumping into the earth. Brilliant and well done; I know humor was the intent but drawings were very good and highly imaginative.
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Are you talking about this one?
http://enenews.com/nuclear-engineer-youre-gasket-damaged-4-fuel-pool-never-pump-enough-water-establish-level-again-spent-fuel-pool-video/comment-page-1#comment-265646
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Some of the Seismology laboratories (and affiliated engineering divisions), Univ. of Nevada, Reno, for example, have giant tilt tables for testing the effects of shear stress on structures.
Am thinking some of the ideas for devices to be used at Fukushima could be tested on this type of device.
But who has the money for one of those? Wondering if a University would allow a device to be tested in its lab, if the device weren't designed at a particular univeristy.
Does anyone know any billionaires who could put up a lot of $$ to gain access to a lab where this could be done? Ha, ha, probably not, but you never know who is reading Enenews.
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Maybe the correct name for the UNR device isn't a tilt table, but that's the general concept. It's a giant device designed to test shear stress on structures. OK, enough commentary here. Time to let others chime in. Please share your insights and ideas.
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Taters has an incredibly sharp mind. Yes…I can lead them out of the woods…
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Taters
The first priority has to be removing fuel from all units spent fuel pools, and doing it quickly.
At the same time (like now) something must be done to control the constant releases from the smoldering reactors. The releases could be reduced a lot of ways from simple to more complex engineering answers.
Then entomb the reactors in some way, and then come back in 300 years, when humans can approach the problem without dying.
My perspective is from a radiation protection standpoint, I am not an engineer.
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Total Fukushima Radiation Released Into Ocean, Air, Groundwater, Storage Tanks; via A Green Road http://agreenroad.blogspot.com/2012/02/total-fukushima-radiation-released-into.html
Comparing Contaminated Zones Around Chernobyl And Fukushima Ocean Radiation Released; via A Green Road http://agreenroad.blogspot.com/2012/05/comparing-contaminated-zones-around.html
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GreenRoad, nice link collection. Thanks.
However, I miss the links to the official releases.
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So what are we waiting for? TEPCO is gonna lead us for the next 20 years as if they are doing something!?
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It's a joke that the nuclear industry attempts to use this failed technology, with no antidote to counteract the ongoing releases of deadly radiation into our environment.
Nuclear plants must be outlawed (worldwide, all 400+ of them), and shut down. For good.
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I think that security is more important than the bottom.
at least in the first stage..
http://www.herrenknecht.com/fileadmin/redaktion/PDF_Downloads/Direct_Pipe_Fly_GB_09-12-21.pdf
http://www.new4stroke.com/herenknecht.jpg
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No, it's not a big deal according to the WSJ…
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444772404577589270444059332.html
"I would go further and suggest that these well-intended measures did far more harm than good, not least in limiting the prospects of a source of energy that is safe, abundant and (as compared with its rivals) relatively benign for the environmental health of our planet."
Does Richard Muller know what an ROI is? I would guess no.
BOYD
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Can't recall details – haven't checked – but Richard Muller has strong ties to Big Nuclear Interests. I think there was info on it here at ENE recently, perhaps re same article. I imagine you knew that – so I'm posting to share my own feelings, particularly this afternoon but also pretty chronically. I happen to know far more people who will take Muller's article as "the voice of calm reason" vs "misguided alarmists". The same people I'm thinking of are keen on investment news – the WSJ is one of their "intelligent" sources.
The same people (mostly male) also aren't terribly alarmed at anti-women autonomous freedom legislation underway or proposed. They also aren't concerned that VoterID laws are unrelated to proven fraud (new evidence, laws would apply to 1 in 15million (yep, million) fraud cases since 2000). Preemptive war against Iran seems "intelligent" to them. Same re tearing earth up for oil. They aren't in Romney's income class by a long shot – although life has worked pretty well for them. Nothing too troubling seems headed their way.
Actually, that's about 1/2 the people on my mind. The other 1/2 are similar but won't support Romney. However, they don't find Obama's pro-corporate arrangements, drones, and other "status quo" policies of more than "academic" interest. Attacking Iran for them is a reality, a "likely shame". They too, are *always* and *only* "perfectly reasonable".
Somedays *probability* of improvement is tough…
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counter said a few more characters allowed …
Somedays *probability* of improvement is tough for me to imagine. (Sigh!)
I think I needed to say that somewhere – thanks, BOYD, for an opening.
Today all the above has been much on my mind as it frequently is. When I "apprehend" at this level, I have a hard time shifting to a perkier outlook. I don't think of it as "being depressed", rather as being "too aware". Underlying all the global disasters, including nuclear with it's enduring consequences it seems to me is our (humanity's) failure to understand ourselves deeply (in a way that would let us practice greater wisdom and still accomplish great achievements individually and in community.) We have to care for *all* life, the earth. We look for cause in technological failure, ignorance, etc.- or blame one another – or toss one another or the rest of life aside. I'm so convinced not a single one of us was "born" to become so foolish and sometimes feel sorrow about it even as I understand this re who we are.
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My nephew's kids are going to have flippers.
Good thing I'll be dead of cancer by then.
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"Good thing I'll be dead of cancer by then."
We'll all be dead of something by then, perhaps just old age. The real pisser is what we're leaving behind… Here, I've shit in your water bottle (Child, Grandchild, future generations), enjoy!
It sucks to be us.
BOYD
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two generations from now, you'll look back and ponder the 'wisdom' of your own words…
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Wisdom was written in one of the oldest books and it says something in the line of "When the shtf, get out! Don't even go back to fetch your personal belongings." It didn't say, "when the shtf, stay put!" Some people take heed, others simply ignores it.
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on some worlds, they build platforms that ensure the survival of their species. On this one…they build football stadiums. Now, ain't that a kick in the balls…
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Two generations from now, I'll be long dead. I'm old.
BOYD
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It sucks to have to exist with a bunch of morons. Ran into this in another life, another struggle.
Sheeple are too absorbed in crap like Dancing on the Stars or Flatulating in Aunt Emma's Face Version 7.
Being a sheepdog is a tough life. Sheep are stupid as f**k.
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Sheep are actually quite intelligent and have a great sense of humour, once you get to know them…..
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Sheep do not wreck the planet like humans do.. I find that clever.
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The more I read about Fukushima and radiation and it's effect the more worried I get.
A/ it's beyond mankinds ability to stop and will be for the unforeseen future, we may remove fuel in SFP and associated buildings and build a coffer dam and covers, but the actual cores no. Will leak radiation till we have the knowledge? It will take thousands of workers years to accomplish all radiated, who you tell me.
B/ we must determine how much of the fuel has escaped into the environment, their is a seven fold overkill of dangerious isotopes at Fukushima, we need to know for worse or better.
C/ This makes me wonder is this the reason for the media blackout, I have seen the explosions and it looks to me as vast amounts are in the environment, more if that was a nuclear explosion.
D/ Few workers at plant not like Chernobyl, why their is very little they can do or they expect the cores to hit ground water it is by the ocean and then where will we be.
Any input would be helpful.
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The only way to stop it was to copy the response of the USSR.
Something a privately owned company, vulnerable to court sanction….cannot do.
Screwed from Day 1.
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The cores are still there spewing radiation, it's only mitigation.
But yes better response is required, how I do not know you have to expose thousands for years
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"Being a sheepdog is a tough life."… but, a noble occupation, providing one means no harm, or to enrich oneself in the process.
As for the rest of your post, I shall pass.
Peace to you and yours,
BOYD
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BOYD – I do like your sheepdog metaphor and could have used it on my own behalf much earlier today! May we have permission to quote it entirely and widely, "Being … process." ?
Never mind that I didn't have it earlier today … it's perfect for day's end and I shall carry it in mind, shall make good use of it, tomorrow as well as likely beyond for some time! Thanks!!
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Anything I post here is free to all who read it, and worth far less.
Peace to you and yours,
BOYD
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It is OK to get paid to be a sheepdog, otherwise the field would be limited to those independently wealthy.
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I'm guessing BringoutYourDead is a Minister/Pastor type. I have said that this accident benefits only those who wish to put together a jigsaw puzzle of lifes deepest secrets. If you've gone through your life and find yourself drawing the religion card to explain seemingly unknown phenomenon, perhaps there is an explanation hidden within the realm of nuclear physics instead. I hope there will be people left to say, "Bring out your dead". It would be horrible to let the rodents and flies get to them. But listen here. To end on a cheerfull note. This accident, as massive as it is, will be contained eventually. Ultimately, a large part of Japan will be a "no mans land". All food and water will have intact safety seals to insure there is no contamination.
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I like your koala – they do have irresistible faces that seem to suggest a zen perspective, (maybe it's the mood I'm in). A part of me believes also that some decades down the road humanity and the earth it "stewards" will still exist. But it surely will be much altered, and in unimaginable ways.
As dreadful and unthinkable as Fukushima is, part of our back-of-mind awareness is that there are hundreds of potential repeats scattered across the globe + maximum earth/ocean risk with our chase for fuel and resources + species disappearances at never-before pace. Fukushima is a dramatic and large event, but only one in a long string of opportunities we've had across a good half-century that might have prompted us (humanity) to re-examine what we're doing. Countless opportunities have been much less consequential. But even from previous large dramatic events, i.e. Gulf oil spill – have we learned? It's our incredibly slow realization that gets to me sometimes.
Still – with BOYD's sheepdog metaphor and your zen-inspiring koala – I do feel better than I've felt all day. Thank you!
But I agree – this is not the final blow to earth and to life on earth.
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But, I also believe that Fukushima was big enough to break the sheeple out of the cacoon of ignorance and put an end to this method of boiling water. Unfortunately, in this case we must take a painful lesson. So painful it will be. A scar is left on our DNA for eternity. Can they dredge the ocean floor and separate fuel from nonfuel? So many gaps in my understanding.
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"Can they dredge the ocean floor and separate fuel from nonfuel?"
Maybe, but apparently they are closer to extracting uranium from seawater…
If they keep nuclear chittin in the oceans, they're gonna need too…
ORNL technology moves scientists closer to extracting uranium from seawater
OAK RIDGE, Tenn., Aug. 21, 2012 — Fueling nuclear reactors with uranium harvested from the ocean could become more feasible because of a material developed by a team led by the Department of Energy's Oak Ridge National Laboratory.
The combination of ORNL's high-capacity reusable adsorbents and a Florida company's high-surface-area polyethylene fibers creates a material that can rapidly, selectively and economically extract valuable and precious dissolved metals from water. The material, HiCap, vastly outperforms today's best adsorbents, which perform surface retention of solid or gas molecules, atoms or ions. HiCap also effectively removes toxic metals from water, according to results verified by researchers at Pacific Northwest National Laboratory.
http://www.ornl.gov/info/press_releases/get_press_release.cfm?ReleaseNumber=mr20120821-00
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Re: trapping uranium in polyethylene adsorbents
SP: We know how well those Dr. Frankenstein chemicals performed on BP's cleanup. The "cure" was worse than the disease.
So now they are testing more toxic plastic monsters. As a victim highly allergic to Dr. Frankenstein's plastic assaults on my fragile body I can hardly wait to try and fend off another environmental poison. If it's so safe let's serve up a nice glass of water of the new chemical mixed 50/50 for the Oak Ridge research scientists. Hinkley justice.
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hbjon,
I've been called a lot of things in my life, but, never… "I'm guessing BringoutYourDead is a Minister/Pastor type."
Perhaps in some twisted Monty Python skit this might work.
BOYD
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The big problem is the big lie, "no one has died from radiation". Many people swallow this tripe and move on. As long as people are going to believe the lies, nothing is going to be done.
If you want to bring a change, you need to force the Japanese government to admit the disaster, publish the damning facts, about just how many have died. Then people will start getting serious about solving the problem.
How many stillbirths (standard Japanese procedure for removing birth defects from the population), Downs syndrome, child illnesses, and so on have increased since 3/11. Press for the facts, apply intense public pressure, make them admit the truth and the cover up. Until the lies are no longer tolerated and those spinning them are fingered publicly, no significant progress at Fukushima will happen.
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By keeping up pressure on Japanese officials I believe we also "signal" officials and corporations in other nations that we're not willing to accept condescending reassurances. It's important that we do so – on behalf of the Japanese, and on behalf of all of us.
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Because some humans cannot control the disease of needing power over others and other things, perhaps human life is doomed. Nuclear power/weapons was the sickest way of the power disease to find expression. But bacteria will certainly thrive. Now if the power hungry elite could put that in their pipe and smoke it, then maybe we would have a change for better in our society.
So if your consciousness can expand beyond the limits of a human body, not having humans around might not seem so bad.
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Dear Dosdos and Maggie,
Thank you both for contributing here at ENENews
'Until the lies are no longer tolerated… '
'It's important that we do so – on behalf of the Japanese, and on behalf of all of us.'
I believe healthcare professionals read ENENews and are educating themselves. Especially since now, real truths are resurfacing regarding studies done on Chernobyl, there is NO excuse for ignorance regarding the physiological/psychological/sociological/environmental/economic effects following a nuclear disaster.
ENENews is so very important and is growing every day! I believe persons engaged in 'caring professions' will be convicted in their own hearts and will find themselves unable to participate in ways they find unconscionable. They will find solidarity in this, speak out and take action.
Thanks to our wonderful Admin, brilliant/inspired posters, and loyal readers -ENENews continues to deliver these difficult truths to the world. We are making a difference
ENENews is a fine example of the world coming together, caring for the planet and one another.
Aloha.
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Sorry, 'Maggie123'.
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Yamada gives the bad news: "…in the case of Fukushima Daiichi, we have to continue to cool it for 10 years, 20 years. That is much different. We cannot cover Fukushima Daiichi."
SP: We suspected as much long ago. This just nails down the harsh news for Honshu. The inhabitants face an uncertain future and begin a long desperate battle to stay healthy in the coming years. They will need new survival techniques to stay alive in Japan. Japan can't go back to the past. Rich and poor alike will be at risk for illness.
The aberrant real estate rebound in Tokyo will be over as the radiation levels in food and water continue rising and negative news finally sinks into mainstream Japan. Watch for escalation of voluntary evacuations.
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TEP.gov: If your idea is to cool the escaped Coriums by allowing groundwater to flow over, under, and around them, and thence into the Pacific Ocean, you will render the entire Earth uninhabitable.
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That's it! Geeeeeenius! They cool the coriums with the entire planet, saving their gangsta govt stakeholders some big bucks.
The title quote should read, "…like Chernobyl–It's too late, we f*+ked That up a long time ago, where have you been?"
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FYI On what's *TDC Channel* here is a dramatization of the Fukushima Nuclear meltdown – under the title: Meltdown.
So far its sophisticated and not pulling any punches. Its vantage point is INSIDE TEPCO CONTROL and its showing a step by step run down of the meltdown!
Extremely recommend to catch it if you can!
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Well not a dramatization more like a true story documentary with actors.
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They are saying they were essentially in big trouble within an hour of loss of power to plant. Melt-through happened pretty much right away too. Coriums are more than twice the temp of molten lava. In the specifics of this accident you can see TEPCO was screwed in terms of the unforgivable mistake of the generators NOT being in a better place. It is a very interesting perspective to take after having such an *here* based take on Fukushima too. Maybe plutonium might get a mention….
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What will become of Tokyo? .. Based on Gunderson's random collected samples, it's not too encouraging. I'd be concerned, and pull all the stops to make something happen. At least try to save the country.
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The Fukushima nightmare is and will be played out in other nuclear plants around the world as they fail in their design and to age. Already there are plants in France, Belgium and the US with major problems, and the world community is uninformed. India is seriously considering nuclear energy as it becomes a greater player in world economics.
The same sociopaths who will not inform the world about the coming ruination of our planet because it would cause negativity against nuclear energy and the loss of finance are only viewing the bottom line. The immoral actions of exporting contaminated food or feeding it to children, the elderly and patients in the hospitals are examples of their greed. They appear to have no knowledge of the workings of a nuclear plant or the meaning of the extinction of life and the changes that will affect the planet. It will be only a matter of time before another nightmare is begun somewhere in the world. These nuclear power plants now unleashed are the world's weapons of mass destruction.
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very well said Michele
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I see no problem with grouting and capping off this steaming pile. Burial is simple hygienics, not complex voodoo contamination. Keeping Daiichi open for the idiotic agenda of cooling down with water that turns into steam or dumps in the ocean, is really unnecessary. The stupidity is amazing. That is because CORIUMS SIMPLY DO NOT HAVE TO BE WATER COOLED FOR TEN YEARS! Just see for yourselves, the state of the coriums at Chernobyl. They were approachable and filmable, they were not being doused with water or giving off steam. How can these liers insist something so obviously false?
I do not see a problem with sealing off the entire site with grout in the reactors. I do not foresee any possible scenario where people are going in to take out these coriums which do not need to be moved anywhere. There is nowhere else to put them in any case and no way to remove them without needlessly releasing much more radiation. The simplest and most effective remedy remains burial deep down where it all began. If Tepco can safely remove nonspent fuel rods out of the spent fuel pools, OK. The dry caskable material should be entombed in situ.
Check it out, the current US long plan for nuke waste is in situ dry cask storage. They have way too much in SFPs. The whole system they designed was crap and the best we can make of it is a tomb wherever it sites. People who want to leave Daiichi open and spewing will not take responibility for what they say..they cannot.
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It's not so easy to compare Chernobyl to Fukushima. Apples versus oranges.
Chernobyl is/was a RBMK design (Reaktor Bolshoy Moshchnosti Kanalniy) and the fuel, building, building location, and response was vastly different.
Leaving the Fukushima coriums alone may be what they end up doing, but it will not be a remedy. Ugly things will happen over the coming years. The coriums will be doused in water. Most likely from underground fissures and aquifers from the mainland. Inclined to the sea for global dispersal. It's happening now and will not be deterred unless they have much more manpower and equipment. Two dozen workers a day is a good indicator that they lost any hope of containment the first week of the crisis.
Maybe if they thought there was any hope at all they would have the majority of the other 90,000 nuclear workers busting their ass at Fukushima Daiichi. Since they didn't ask for those idled workers then it must be hopeless.
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They need the other 90000 workers to keep the Japanese reactor fleet running.
And, if another NPP gets a serious accident (crapping instead of only pooping like Fuku), they might need them.
At Chernobyl highly radioactive stuff (more than 10 sievert surface radiation) was spread around a radius of several hundred meters, which luckily didn't happen at Fuku, so they probably don't need so many workers as the Soviets needed.
But a Chernobyl-like accident still could happen, so they need to keep a fleet of fresh workers in reserve.
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